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Deciphering Engage-to-Earn
Recorded: June 20, 2025 Duration: 0:59:09Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the evolving landscape of engagement in the Web3 space, emphasizing the shift from attention metrics to meaningful interactions. Key topics included the importance of building genuine relationships, the strategic use of tokens for community engagement, and the upcoming launch of innovative projects aimed at enhancing user experience.
Full Transcription
Thank you. hey what's going on everyone happy friday everyone holy finally it is that time of the week once
again but guys thank you so much for showing up early let's go ahead and kick it over to that
mic check shall we guys and gals in the audience if you can hear me right now please let with some thumbs ups, with some hearts, with some kind of indication that the audio is, in fact, reaching you all right now.
Thank you, Future Sight.
You see, Conte, thank you.
Appreciate you, EHIC.
All right, guys, we're all good here.
Thank you, Junie.
I see you.
Jordan, happy network. Kwame, all. We're all good here. Thank you, Junie. I see you. Jordan.
Happy Network.
Kwame.
All right.
Thank you so much.
All right.
I think we're all good for the mic check.
Give us a couple of more minutes here to set things up on the back end.
But in the meantime, you guys know what's up.
Please go to the bottom right-hand corner.
Give us a like, comment, and retweet onto this space, and we will be starting in just a few more minutes.
Let's do this. Get on girl, you drive me crap, hell yeah, dirty bass. Yo.
This beat make me go wild, this drink make me fall down.
I party hard like carnival, let's burn this month and dance.
This bass make me go ape, these girls serve me so light.
Yo, that's hella cake with a Cali shake, I got dough, he's down the bank.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, my dirty bass. Like that, I can't work that back.
Let me get that.
You glass of water.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, my dirty face.
Ain't that small.
I can break that off.
Let me get that.
You glass of water.
I'm gonna live my life.
No matter what we party tonight.
I'm gonna live my life.
I know that we gonna be alright.
I'm gonna live my life.
No matter what we party tonight.
I'm gonna live my life.
I know that we gonna be be alright Whoa, whoa, whoa
I know that we gon' be alright
Whoa, whoa, whoa
I know that we gon' be alright
Hell yeah, dirty face
Ghetto girl, you drive me crap
Hell yeah, dirty face No matter where we be at VIP or in the sea like all we need to start it is the speakers in my Like Pilates with your head with your knee, yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my dirty face. I can work that back.
Let me get that.
It's a dresser.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my dirty face.
That's small.
I can break that off.
Let me get that.
It's a dresser.
I'm gonna live my life.
No matter what we party tonight. I'm gonna live that dance alive.
I know that we gon' be alright.
I'm gonna take my life.
No matter what we party tonight.
I'm gonna live that dance alive.
I know that we gonna be alright
This is my moment tonight, hell yeah we do it right
So get your hands up in the air like you live in your life
This is my moment tonight, hell yeah we do it right
So get your hands up in the air like you live in your life
Like you live in your life. Like you live in your life.
Like, like you live in your life.
Don't let me go away, go away.
I'm gonna live my life no matter what we fall in line I'm gonna live my life
Now that we gon' be alright
Now that we gon' be alright
Now that we gon' be alright yo how's it going everyone welcome back toV, the autonomous agentic media network.
My name is Ice, and I will be your host for today's show.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, we've seen a lot, a lot of different types of earning models
in our lifetime here on Web3.
From the, well, not even just in Web3, Web2 as well, from the tried and true 9 to 5, that
is a work to earn, to play to earn, review to earn, learn to
earn. There's so many ways to earn. But now here comes something that all social media enthusiasts
do on a daily basis to post, to comment and to engage, thus sparking the model of engage to earn.
And I know what you're thinking. What the heck is that? And not to worry, my friends,
that is exactly what we are here to decipher today. So let's talk about this. But first,
please allow me to introduce my co-host, builder and co-founder of AITV. What's up, Jordan? How are you doing, man? Hey, what's up? Yeah, I'm super excited to chat more today about the
engagement economy. It's not the attention economy.
We're not just looking for eyeballs.
We're looking for engaged users interacting with AI, bringing value, and creating content
along with these live stream agents.
So it's a really fun time for us.
And yeah, we're super stoked to talk more about it.
And also thank you to all of the great panelists who are here.
Lots of really, really cool projects.
So yeah, fun stuff.
Indeed, man.
Looks like we're surrounded by old friends once again.
So let's go ahead and bring them out, shall we?
First off, let's go ahead.
And actually, you know, I used to call him Mr. G, Mr. Green.
But apparently now I've been given the official green light
to actually address this sir as Felix.
What's going on, Felix?
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
This is the part that your mom won't like.
Yo, legends!
And yo, Ice, my man.
AI TV as well.
Thank you a lot for having me up here once more.
Yeah, I didn't want to spare you from this infamous intro,
if you could say it like that.
But yeah, Ice's for real. I would say
I'm already becoming part of the interior around here, here and there, right? No, I'm just kidding.
I'm super happy to be around here once more. Engaged to earn, definitely a super, super
interesting and also important topic. I also have the feeling that it might tie a little bit into
this InfoFi meta that we're seeing right now as well.
A little bit, maybe, right?
In terms of earning your yaps through Kaito with engaging with people,
replying and whatever you could imagine, right?
But yeah, I think very much agreed
on what you just mentioned.
The primary focus is definitely
what we see around here, right?
This everyday environment,
basically being out there,
replying to people that you actually get seen, right?
This is, I think, the very first step.
So I guess it's going to be a very interesting conversation, my man.
And yeah, I got some takes up my mind.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you, Felix.
Yeah, I'm right there with you, man.
And I'll be honest, like when I first started this,
understanding the whole concept behind EngageDurn,
tying in that with like SocialFi, info fi and all that.
I've never been a huge participant in terms of these,
these farming kind of,
these kind of farming engagement to airdrop kind of games.
Right.
But I think understanding things is a little bit more thorough,
but besides just understanding how I work and talking about it on spaces,
like my one thing that I always like try to focus on is that, okay, cool.
You guys can have hype. You guys can have a growth, sure. But how does that tie things back?
How does it benefit the original creator, the person behind the account? How does this tie
back to your communities if you are an entity or a project? So these are the kind of things that I'm
looking for, right? I'm kind of like, I dive deep in, laser in on the short term stuff, but I like
to zoom out and see how does it really apply and benefit in the grander scheme of things in the long term.
So that's kind of where I'm at with this.
You guys are definitely the experts, not I.
But hey, that's why we have y'all here.
But Mr. Felix, oh my God, I'm just getting – I'm all over the place.
Mr. Felix, a.k.a. Mr. Green, thank you so much for being here today, my guy.
Thank you, thank you.
Let's go ahead and check in with another old friend of ours.
It is Future Sight from KPR.
What's going on, Future?
Hey, always good to see you.
You mentioned that we're all experts.
I certainly don't feel like one on this topic.
And indeed, I would say I don't think anybody's an expert in this topic.
It's so experimental.
It's so new.
I think we've seen a lot of different avenues being tried and not quite tested yet,
you know, not quite fully kind of proved yet, shall we say. So I really liked that opening
mention that it's not just about attention, it's about engagement. I think we've almost seen,
we could say, the collapse of the attention economy in the last couple of months.
And I think anybody who's been paying close attention to that can see it. I know my mute list is growing longer every day. And so engage economy, the engagement,
what does that actually mean? How do you actually bring in real users who want to use your product,
who will champion your product because they want to be there and will get something in return for
their kind of time? I think that's where we need to move into. So it's a great discussion to be having at the moment.
I appreciate the hell out of that, Future.
And I think you're right, man.
I think maybe this is something that perhaps there is no true expertise in.
But we're learning every day, right?
But I still stand by what I say, Future.
You guys definitely know more than I do in this regard.
And also, I think you bring up a really good point,
kind of hearkening back to what Jordan was just saying a couple of minutes ago during the intro, which is the whole, what is the difference,
right, being between engagement and versus attention? We've always said that, especially
here on Twitter, that this is an attention economy. And depending on how you view things,
it probably still is. But I do think there is a distinction between attention and engagement,
because when I think attention, it feels like a decorated splash. And when I think of engagement, it could be a decorated splash, but also engagement
kind of funnels towards that line of providing value or providing entertainment for a reason
for your audience to engage. So I do think there are subtle differences. And maybe in a couple of
minutes future, we're going to break down exactly what that difference between engagement versus attention is.
But nonetheless, always happy to speak with you, brother.
Thank you so much for joining us.
And before we kick things off today, let's go ahead and check in with the representative behind AFI Network.
How are you guys doing?
Hey, guys.
Pinaki here from AFI Network.
Super awesome to be here.
Thanks again for having me.
Awesome panelists. Very excited to be here. Thanks again for having me. Awesome panelists.
Very excited to be discussing Engage to Earn.
Thank you, Affi.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Well, guys, without further ado, let's go ahead and kick off today's conversation, shall we?
First thing off the table, very, very, very easy to go by.
All right, we'll start the tip of the iceberg as per usual.
And I want to ask you guys, how would you go about defining what the engage to earn model is?
Let's break this down.
And then I will go back to both of Felix and FutureSight about the questions that we kind of previously discussed during the intro.
So please take a moment, think about what you want to say.
And whenever you're ready to join in on the conversation, simply use the bottom right hand panel and raise your hand like so.
And of course, if you have anything to say in direct response to what the previous speaker just said, keep those hands raised for me.
But also hit me up with one of these waving hand emotes right here, and I'll be more than happy to skip the line and send you the mic ASAP.
Of course, everyone else listening in right now, please go back to that bottom right hand corner. Give us a like comment and retweet on today's show as I hand the mic
back to my man, my co-host Jordan to kick things off.
Take it away, brother. Yeah, definitely. So I think
that people are getting really tired of fighting over
the world's attention. Everything's getting
botted. Everything is getting faked. It's impossible
to actually know how to get people's attention. And so what I think a lot of Web3 projects are
looking for in just products in general, new startups, building interesting products,
they're looking for users to come and engage with them, the brand, and also their product.
they're looking for users to come and engage with them, the brand, and also their product.
And so for us, what we're really focused on is being able to merge those into one interesting
experience. And so not to be too shilly or whatever, but at AI TV, we're working with
people to launch these agents that represent their brand and also allow them to show off their
product. And so what this looks like is it's this fun, engaging experience for viewers to be able
to interact with an agent and then also see the product at work, right?
So let's say that it's some blockchain intelligence tool that's able to sift through the market's
worth of data and give you insights.
What better way to try that out as a user than to see a
fun looking character and try to prompt it and talk to it along with a bunch of other people
on the internet, you know, like, it's, it's, it's fun, it's engaging, it's interesting. And, you
know, you're learning about a new brand, a new product that you you may want to dive deeper into.
So, you know, this to me is what engagement means. It's,
it's not just reading text on the screen. It's, it's not just seeing, you know, these like half
baked memes or these like fake influencers talk about something. It's, it's actually being able
to engage with the brand in a way that, that sticks with you, you know, for a long time.
Yeah. Jordan, thank you for that, man. that man a quick uh maybe this is a tangent uh
like uh I don't really know but um I you know a couple of years ago about four four and a half
years back like uh kind of like the late ending of um of 2021 when entities were really taking uh
taking up like the the spotlight like in the very beginning of the whole nft meta right during that
time I remember there were a lot of NFC projects
kind of doing this whole podcast or TV or kind of just...
Basically, it's like one of those social media outlets,
kind of, and that's what the project was.
And if you minted their NFTs,
you can listen in on their shows and whatnot.
And at that time, I remember there was a very,
very old model called Learn to Earn.
Just wanted to quickly check up with you, Jordan.
Were you part of that meta or were you around when they did that whole Learn to Earn thing?
Do you remember that?
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Like, I think it's a really cool meta.
And it's, you know, it's sad that it just like kind of devolved into just like questing click buttons, claim airdrop.
Like, I think that there's a ton
of potential in the learn to earn concept. You know, I've always said that, like, I think people
should be rewarded for learning new skills and learning new topics, right? Like, I think that's
something so fascinating and cool. And when we have, you know, internet native digital currencies,
like it's more and more possible
to program that type of stuff.
So yeah, I'm a big fan of learn to earn.
And yeah, like, I think that with our agents on AITV, like we also want to reward and allow
people to earn for interacting and, you know, being a part of the conversation and helping
generate content.
So it's like, it's very much in a similar vein. Yeah, I think Learn to Earn has a has a lot
has a lot of overlapping similarities with with Engage to Earn as well. And I will say, though,
I do I do feel that too, like it was really effective in like late 2021, even early 22,
the Learn to Earn system, the gamification system it was all right and i think
the reason for that is just because at that time there was still a lot more new people coming to
the space for the first time so like learning about what what the heck is metamask what is a
seed phrase like these were things that were genuinely interesting for a lot of newcomers but
you fast forward like four years most people know about that now and learning to earn it's it's kind
of like a gimmick to just like click buttons, like you said, right? Things that we already know, things that we
already do just for the sake of putting up some EXP on the leaderboard. But Future, you had the
waving thing going on. So I kind of want to pass the mic over to you real fast. What are your
thoughts on this whole learn to earn situation? I'm actually really glad you brought it up because
it was one of the first things that came to mind being in the space for a while, right?
But that we seem to have moved away and turned to kind of like shallower and shallower kind of examples of how to have the post-to-earn kind of systems.
And it just realized it's like being this decline in the willingness in people in the space to spend more than a minute reading something.
Right. So maybe we need a return to learn to earn just to get people used to a different form.
Just in soundbites or flashy 10 second clips and things like that.
Right. And I think, you know, also shout out to Fungibles on this front
for bringing back, you know, more detailed spaces, conversations.
And I think we're seeing a return to that more in-depth discussion
about things in the space.
But it would be great to bring that ethos.
I think that the wider space at the moment is right away
from actually digesting new information about projects they
want to be told what to think told what to buy and told what to post to earn tokens and and that's
what I mean that the attention economy is collapsed everybody kind of got involved in that
over the last year or so and now people are starting to realize how hollow it is in terms
of user retention it might um it might bring you some attention over the short period, but then the same people who
gave you that attention will jump ship for the next one the second it's available, right?
So I think user acquisition is one thing.
User retention is another.
The understanding your product, understanding how it works, all the problems it might be solving, how it helps them,
the more likely they are to actually become longer-term users.
And at the end of the day, Web3 likes to work
with five-minute attention spans or maybe five-second attention spans.
A business can't operate unless you have longer-term users.
So there is something in there to incentivise people to slow down,
pay long-term attention, learn in detail what something is about,
not just a soundbite.
I think that's a challenge that the space needs to really embrace
and it will really help our roots in important ways at the moment.
And then the other thing, there was a mention about the kind of bots too,
and I was a brief moment where you would come across a bot
and you would have fun engaging with it.
It would be that challenge, right?
It would be that discussion.
It would be a novelty.
And now they've all just become invisible to us
because we can spot them right away and we just, you know, block them out.
So we've even lost that engage with the bot side.
So hearing that the likes of AITV and others are trying to bring a deeper form of automation with that content, think that's an interesting thing to kind of delve into more because the high manic attention
economy just wasn't doing anybody any favors at the end of the day. I agree, man. And also,
I'll give a super quick follow up. I just want to let you know, Future, that there was a lot of
like hiccups. Was it just me
or was FutureSight kind of phasing in and out there? Like your voice is kind of cutting out
in between. But I heard the bulk of what you were trying to say. And I'm right there with you, man.
I think like just attention spans in general, maybe it's not even a Web3 thing. Maybe it's
just the entire world. Attention span are very, very brittle. They've definitely become a lot short
over the years. But here's what I've noticed, right? Because when we talk about attention
versus like the engagement side of things, I feel like the information, when it comes down to
providing value for audience members, maybe it's like one of those things where when you put out
a post that has value, but it's kind of things that we already know, or maybe it's just very, very surface level value.
People will still give you the attention
because they're kind of hoping that the value that they get back
is the reciprocal engagement, right?
Like if you like my post, I'll like your post.
And that is the value there.
And I think for this reason,
it is a lot easier to quote unquote engagement farm
with these very shallow posts
because it
takes very little time to really crunch your, to crunch the content. And it takes very little
time to respond to the content. But then when we come down to the really long posts, that's when
people just click like, and they don't even read it because like if it's more than five seconds,
we're out. But here's the thing, what I've noticed is that human beings are very selective. So in other words, when someone is posting about a hack that's going on, or maybe
it's perhaps it's like a password breach, or something that is actually pertinent to us,
this value, this is the information that we actually want to know. In other words, when
you're actually providing information and value that is pertinent to you, you will be more than happy to engage, to bump, to kind of maybe save it on a bookmarks or even give it like a response.
Because the value there is not the reciprocal engagement.
The value there is actually what is being extracted from the post itself.
So I think there's a huge difference in terms of the two.
But just like we all know, right, I think it's more common that in the space people just go for the lower hanging through it's easier to create it
takes less time and chances are it probably gets more attention and engagement too so there's so
many things so many things that are backwards in our space future that well we really have to
reverse engineer her but as i take the second to pull up kibi and nox I will pass the mic over to Mr. Green, Mr. Felix, my apologies.
No, you can't, my man, no worries.
Yo, super valid points here, by the way.
And you know, when I'm hearing this, I kind of, like a question arises up my mind, if
you could say it like that, right?
Because I'm wondering then, those engaged to earn structures, as well as like user acquisition and user attention.
This is something where we are, I would say,
in a Web3 environment already performing very, very good, right?
We kind of know how this works around here.
I would still say though that also, especially on CT or X in general,
it's like one of the only platforms where this is kind of mandatory,
right, for a tiny person like us or tiny creators or whatever you could imagine, to even get
seen.
Like, you don't have this on other platforms.
And I'm kind of wondering myself, like, what is going to happen at, you know, we're seeing
this as of right now, like, as the meta is emerging with Disengage2Earn, also with like InfoFi and so on, right?
But how is this going to look like in, I don't know, five to six years when we have more people coming in here that are actually, as we call them nowadays, right?
Web2 users that are not used to those structures because our ecosystem or our CT bubble bubble where we all know how everything functions around
here is still very very tiny right and i see this right now especially with all this you know info
fly content emerging and kind of people posting the same stuff over and over and over i guess
we perform very good throughout the beginning of the year also with like you know engaged structures
to get people into the space through other social media platforms like TikTok, YouTube, whatever you could
imagine, right? Kind of getting this attention of those users for the acquisition here into Web3.
And now I'm wondering myself, though, if people are actually coming in here and see Web3 for what
it is right now, the current state of the timeline
how interesting is it actually to engage with all that stuff because a lot of those things are
either very deep techy right like very deep tech savvy which is hard to understand for people that
are not yet part of this blockchain environment or on the other hand it's like the same content
over and over because we have this info fly meta going on right now and everybody kind of tries to reap rewards. Right. So I'm kind of curious, maybe just also put this out there as a question. What do you guys think? Like, is this something that's going to be very interesting also for this adoption that we're always aiming for? I'm kind of curious.
adoption that we're always aiming for i'm kind of curious i see what you mean man and i mean this is
by no means uh like a catch-all response but i do feel um i feel like the web2 social media
platforms or info media platforms as we come to now to now deviate towards i feel like web2 knows
this i really do and the reason why i say that is because like when you go on other platformers you
go on youtube tiktok uh, just anything outside of Twitter.
Like the human being behind those accounts, there is that element of reciprocal engagement as well.
Right. When people comment on your stuff, it is a combination of the fact that they like what they see or they are kind of hoping that, hey, if I engage with this guy, maybe they can engage back and show some love.
So I think that reciprocal engagement is definitely the goal with a lot of Web2 platforms as well. The issue here is though, when we bring
things into Web3, it takes that goal and then 100xs in intensity. And so now there's a very
incentive-driven angle. It is a reward-based goal. And people, they want the reciprocal engagement,
sure. But moreover than anything, they want the reciprocal engagement sure but more over than
anything they want the bag at the end of that tunnel right so everyone and when you sprinkle
money on top of everything it just everything becomes a little bit less authentic so i guess
this is the reason why people are kind of starting to call social media not really social media
anymore because it's not social it's very goal driven and it's very algo based and how we can
kind of exploit and win but anyway before we check in with the new speaker, I do want to toss the mic back to my
man, Jordan, first. Jordan, what's on your mind? Yeah, no, I the last speaker had said something
that really made me think about the concept of creating spectacles and creating something that
people just kind of can't resist to poke at. And think that that's what you know like true engagement and adoption can sometimes look like you know like creating something that's
so out there so weird so interesting that people just have to poke it you know
sorry i i thought uh i thought we we lost jordan. Nope, that was it. Point, end.
Poking the bear.
Poking the bear, as they say.
Mr. Green, I also saw you had your hand up
and then you kind of took it down.
Do you want to add something to that, man?
I just wanted to add something really quick
on what you said as well.
Because I think the big thing that we have around here,
especially in this Web3 environment
and why we have those engage-to-earn structures is because the big difference between Web2 and Web3 when it comes
to social media or content creation is that I would say Web3 is a very unique environment because
around here, either you are a creator or not, but in the end, you're still an investor, but you're
also a consumer at the same time. And you don't really have that in a Web2 environment, right? Like many people
that are out there that are creators are not like really, I mean, of course, also consumers on the
sideline. But maybe you see what I mean by this, right? Which might also spark this interest in
terms of engaging because as you said, Ice, in the end, it comes down to your bag as well. And with being an investor in an environment like this,
you kind of have to engage with the stuff that you are invested in
to kind of pump your bag as well. So maybe this might also be the big difference
between Web 2 and Web 3 when it comes down to content creation.
I see that happening. And now that you actually put it into perspective, Felix,
when it comes down to Web 3 creators, it feels like the focus is more on like bursts of engagement from one or two posts.
Right. Because like you said, it involved that there's bags involved, whether it's by Twitter, sorry, Twitch itself or whether it's by some kind of other app.
And hence why these these systems get bought it. Right. Because there's a there's a monetary incentive behind it.
Whereas Web2, I feel like it leans a little bit closer towards building a social presence so maybe or maybe they're just
not used to botting the heck out of their messages uh to flaunt that cloud but anyway i do digress
but before we get out of hand i do want to welcome nox coming from kiwi joining us up on stage what's going on Nox welcome back man yeah so first off
sorry I'm late uh as always um thank you so much AITV for hosting uh very very happy to be here
um I was able to catch up and listen to the last couple of bits of the conversation and it is
always super interesting to see the difference uh especially guess, we've been talking about the sort of dichotomy
of Web 2 versus Web 3 sort of engagement to ERD type scenarios where I think like one
or two little sense that I would add to this is, first of all, I think Bossa posted this
like last week or so, just talking about the value of,-term going for engagement metrics versus actually trying to form long-term relationships with people and with your users and how much better that is in the long run.
So if you're a business, and this is something that I learned the hard way, that a lot of us have actually, that if you're trying to put in a bunch of budget into one crazy period period maybe you have a maybe you have a tge
coming up maybe you have like a big announcement that you want to do it's always better to have
those like even three or four people that are you know quite popular that you get along well with
that you want to keep the relationship going for months on end posting about it then then falling
for the temptation
of, OK, I want to get this as much reach as possible.
I'm going to go to every KOL agency I know and just dump all of my budget into getting
everybody to post about this crazy announcement or something like that.
And, you know, you were talking about low hanging fruit ice and it just feels so easy
when you think about it that way.
It's like, OK, yeah, this is the most basic way to do it.
I have a big announcement.
I get a bunch of KOLs to post about it once.
Let's do it.
But let's be honest.
If we've all looked at a KOL that we like or that we follow,
if all of a sudden they come in here and promote a TGE for a certain coin,
we all know what that's about, right?
It's very see-through.
It's very transparent. We know what that's about, right? Like it's very see-through. It's very transparent.
We know what incentivized posts are like.
And I think like bringing it all the way around
back to the Web2 side,
when they try to do like these ambassadorial programs
and things like that,
like Freeletics was doing it for a while,
where really like they would give you some goodies
and all you had to do was post about
how much you like Freeletics and things like that. and it's like things that you would do anyway right so yes uh
just uh long story short organic is always better uh personal relationships and long-term relationships
with uh with content people is always better and as tempting as it may be to get people to shill
the crap out of your big posts long- term, it's just not worth it.
I think I can say that with like 100% certainty with some of the latest announcements I've seen.
So yeah, just felt like that needed to be said.
Thank you, Nox. And also welcome to the stage once again.
Don't you worry, man. Don't you worry. We're here for you. We're here for you.
Future Sight, you got your hand up. Did you want to add something to that, bro?
I kind of wanted to build off of that notion between short-term and long-term relationships,
right? And I think a lot of the, because I fully agree that the short-term relationships become
very mercenary, very transactional, and ultimately increasingly low impact.
But equally, I think a lot of the conversation often centers around the marketing side.
And sorry if there's a bit of background noise.
I'm out in the Italian heat at the moment.
But it often centers on that marketing side.
But there's something in here as well about user experience and what it means to create
these long-term engagement and involvement
systems, right? So whether you call them collector systems with KPR, it's our citizenship system.
I think this is something that Web3 actually is doing really, really well, which is that when
you have people who are engaged in your project or your ecosystem over the long term, and for KPR now we're talking upwards of three years,
with these collector systems, and it's more about also the actions
they're taking, the events they're involved in,
the activations that they've participated in over the years,
all of that is recognised.
Your digital identity has this history which is both related
not just to, say, the NFTs you own, but also the actions you've taken over multiple years with a project.
That starts to give you a very clear indication of the people who have really come on that journey with you.
It lets you kind of bring them into the experience you want them to have.
With KPR, it's about activating their imaginations, making them realise that they have this kind of powerful capacity as human beings to create wonderful things. And then ultimately, at the
other end of that, when you have value to give to people, you can target that value exactly to the
people who have come on that journey with you. And over the long term, that starts to build really
solid bonds that speak of true value, not just for
the project, but for the users.
The users are getting their true value out of that because they've been taken on a journey
as well and deepen their experience in the space because of it.
So I really like that long term engagement approach.
And it's usually not about marketing.
It's about experience much more than
just a kind of a marketing beat on the timeline. Well said, Future. And just to kind of piggyback
off and talk about the whole short-term side of things, I guess it's very easy to see why, right?
Like the short-term goal, the short-term relationships, it's very much so very marketing-esque.
It's one of the most common strategies that's actually being deployed by projects
because they want that burst of hype.
And what they don't realize is that that short burst of hype,
it does not necessarily translate into high numbers and TGE,
into Mint and all that.
And I feel like projects already know this,
but for some reason, they just refuse to accept it.
Like, we've been doing this for like four and a half years.
Like, hello, why are we still, isn isn't this insanity why are we still doing the same
strategy if it's proven to fail time and time and time again jordan you got your hand though let's
toss it over to you king hey yeah no i think that the point that was just made by um future was
really interesting and i totally agree with it like being able to build community and take them
along with you in the journey and one of the the like the quote that came to mind with me, the quote that came to mind when I was listening to Future Talk was the fact that with great power comes great responsibility.
Like in the world of Web3, as you know, like members of projects, we have the great power of instilling, you know, ownership in the hands of
our community. And like, we need to use that in a responsible way. Because, you know, you can set
it up in such a way where you're effectively just bribing people, right? Like you're just bribing
people to, you know, partake in your thing, rather than the other way where it's more long term
oriented and saying, okay, like, come and join the community, come and share in this vision of what we're building into the future. You know,
bring your own thoughts and, you know, views into it to be able to help, you know, not only hold the
token, but, but try and, you know, like craft it in your own light. And I think that that's the
most sustainable way, you know, like if, if you're able to build, let's say, 100 core members of your token community early on, that can bring you so far.
And it's making sure that people feel like they really are staked in, they really are sharing your vision and they're fully along for the ride.
Absolutely, Jordan, you got to bring value to your first core 100 true fans right you know on this
topic i kind of want to kind of want to go back to something that future was saying at the beginning
of today's space i want to hear your thoughts on this one as well jordan and of course panelists
if you guys have thoughts on this you guys know what to do please just raise your hand and feel
free to chime in um but what future was talking about the very beginning is kind of like that
distinction between attention and engagement, right?
Like, yes, semantics is very, very similar.
But I wanted to hear your thoughts on this, Jordan.
So let's say, let's take a person's post, for example.
All right.
This person posted something on Twitter.
Now, this person is getting engagement versus this person is getting attention.
What would you say the difference is?
Yeah, so it's authentic comments, you know, like actually having people comment authentically,
having people reshare, talk about it, you know, share it with their friends. So yeah, and it's,
everything's getting botted. So it's like, it's, it's, it's easy to not realize this and be able to see high impressions, lots of comments, but always needing to do that second look, that second take to see how authentic this actually is.
Authenticity at its core. I got it. Let's toss it over to Afi and then we'll swing it over to Felix right after.
Yeah, I think, I think authenticity
makes a lot of sense, right? I think short answer there would be like quality over quantity, right?
And you can see that in the quality of the comments and people who are participating.
But yeah, one thing I wanted to add earlier was, you know, we talked a lot about,
you know, the incentive mechanism and how, you know, Web3 is kind of transforming this really.
So I come from, you know, we were doing this thing called crowd promotion back in the day,
but it's essentially nano-influencer marketing.
So we work with a lot of traditional brands.
So we work with Decathlon, Stabilo to power nano-influencer gigs.
And so we got them to post on Instagram.
This was maybe 2021, 2020.
And what was really interesting, well we each campaign had like 100 people um some of the campaigns i think the biggest
one we did was 400 people a lot of it was manual we had some like automated tools uh supporting us
to help streamline the flows but one thing that we kind of saw was that um people were getting paid
in thai bot right so that? So that's where the business
was running in Thailand. So with Web3, you know, people are actually getting incentivized with
tokens, right? And that kind of creates a lot more loyalty. People aren't just, you know,
seeing this as monetary value. They're seeing this as something that could be, you know, used
in the product that they care about. This could be something that could be used in the product that they care
about. This could be something that could be turned into some type of value. It could
be governance. It could be whatever utility that the protocol or project provides. And
once we start seeing Web2 companies and traditional brands start adopting token-based loyalty systems,
then the possibilities are really endless with what they could do
to really build communities and really build long-term relationships
and bonds that bring value to everyone involved.
Right before we pass it over to Felix, Afi, while I have you here, let me get your
thoughts on this because I do think, yes, Web3 is definitely on to something with token-based
loyalty systems, but it's not perfect, right, as we all know. In fact, there's actually a lot of
shortcomings, a lot of red flags, so to speak. So I kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on this,
Afi, and is that when it comes to these red flags, when it comes up like down to the ways
that could that this whole loyalty system could potentially backfire or be exploited,
what comes to mind?
I think right now, like in crypto, you think of crypto as, you know, token that needs to
You think of crypto as a token that needs to have liquidity.
have liquidity.
And I think the way that Web2 is thinking about token-based loyalty is that this is a point system.
And we're purely using the token as a point that is being transferred.
And this point thing could be transferred or swapped for some type of merch or digital value or some sort of voucher or coupon,
but they're not thinking that, you know, this could be traded on Uniswap, right? And I think
that barrier with kind of bringing Web2 and DeFi together, I think that's the big sort of barrier
right now. But I think once it kind of becomes fully abstracted for the users, they don't feel that sort of Web3 barrier, then I think that makes it a lot easier for everyone involved.
Gotcha. Thank you. Appreciate that, Afi.
Again, Felix, I don't see your hand up anymore, but I'm going to check back with you because I did see it a minute ago.
back with you because I did see it a minute ago.
Do you want to add something to that, brother?
Yeah, I didn't want to take away from
those takes right now because I wanted to add
something on what Future was saying before, right?
So that was the reason that I took it down
again. But I think
or no, sorry, not Future
but what Jelly was saying before, right?
In terms of like this shift
towards this attention
and where you kind of see where
you know, that a lot of attention
comes basically from those engagements that you can see.
And I'm speaking of like mutual engagement in the comments.
And I would also say that this might be the reason that we see a very big shift right
now when it comes down to the creator economy in Web3.
And not quite sure if this ties into like engage to earn, right?
But in my opinion, what we have seen is that there is a big shift right now towards especially
smaller content creators, right?
Your follow account doesn't matter anymore nowadays, not at all, especially when you
want to set deals, because people are looking way more for an engaging community.
And you can also be a person with, let's say, 500 followers.
But if you have, let's say, 30 to 40 people that are regularly interacting with your comments on an organic base,
then this is definitely more interesting for companies and businesses to hire you as well.
So building up this genuine community,
whether if you are a content creator or a business, of course,
or a project,
however you want to call it,
is, yeah, most likely
the most crucial thing in 2025
because we've seen it, right?
Number crunching is not
that interesting anymore.
It certainly isn't.
And you know what else I noticed, Felix,
is that I forgot where
I came across this post.
Somebody posted about this, but it's about like just like just like you were saying, right?
Sometimes the people that comment or reply to you, like, sure, they may have 100 or maybe like 200 or even less followers.
But and because of that, what we've been taught, I mean, I don't want to call my guy Alex Finn.
I mean, I don't want to call my guy Alex Finn, but what we've been taught in the past is that depending on how you want to grow your account and on the algo, there's certain times and perhaps you shouldn't reply to people that have either a negative ratio, like a follower to following ratio.
Maybe if they have like less than 1,000 followers, maybe you shouldn't reply to them.
Or if they don't have a badge, you shouldn't reply to them.
I think there may be some truth in that.
I don't doubt that Alex has done his research. But I will say, man, I will say
those folks that actually not just see your content on the TL while scrolling, right?
Sometimes people comment on the stuff from ages ago. And this is not just the content coming on
their algo out of the blue moon. That's not what's happening. These are people that are actually
searching your name up on their search tab, going to your profile and reading your posts.
So I kind of want to challenge that thought. And it's because like, yeah, sure. If I engage with
these guys, maybe Twitter will, like, well, I'll go ban me or whatever the heck. Maybe they'll
shadow ban me. But I still think that these people that actually engage with you, even if they have
200 followers or less, these are the folks that take the time to think about you.
So I feel like the least we can do is give back, right?
If at all possible, maybe we can do a little bit more than that.
But anyway, that's just my thought on the situation.
I don't know.
Did you ever notice this happening as well, Felix?
I'm just curious.
Am I the only person that feels this way?
No, I would 100% agree to you as well when it comes down to
that no question um i think you know this this shift around here in general is something that
i enjoy a lot i'm i'm i'm totally honest with you right because i i kind of enjoy this just for the
reason that you also have the opportunities also as a smaller content creator to kind of get your
word out there for that info fi and that kaito stuff might even not be that bad just because people realize okay this guy actually knows what he's
doing or he's creating cool stuff even though he doesn't have a big following but very much agreed
as well ice right that i've seen that so often especially also in my spaces where also tiny
accounts jump up and they're like yo i'm lacking so much in terms of engagement because they are not verified or because they have a low follow account or whatsoever um i am a person that
doesn't really care about this stuff just for the reason that i realized yo the most genuine
connections that i actually made around here in the space are with like very like very small creators
that have been grown of course throughout this period of time, right?
But if I think back in like 2022, 2023,
something like that, where I made most of my network around here,
it have been mostly tiny people that have just been hungry, right?
And that just wanted to put something out there.
And I'm more bullish on that because as we have heard right now, right?
If you get the solid community of those people that are always engaging with your stuff,
then you also have the opportunities to kind of hit some deals and then earn some money from that once more, right?
And of course, also give back.
Don't get me wrong.
It's not like taking opportunity of those people, right?
Please don't get me wrong here.
I'm just saying it's also a boost for yourself as well
right to kind of get seen maybe by somebody yeah that wants to have you for their business
100 and you know it pains me to say this right felix but this is exactly what we're talking
about like why have we went from the age of social media to now what gary v calls info media it's
because it's because people are
now prioritizing the algorithm more than people. That's honestly what it is. We are willing to go
out of our way to put ourselves in a more advantageous position in order to adhere to
the algo and we don't actually give a damn about the people. And isn't that really, isn't that just
so full circle? Like after all, what's the point of adhering to the algo is to build a community of people. And yet we are. And yet we're shunning the people in favor of the algo. So people really do care about the numbers sometimes, rather than those couple of folks that are really there for you, even when there's no money on the table. And we do have some hands here. Let's toss it over to Knox and we'll check in with FutureSight right afterwards.
over to Knox and we'll check in with Futureside right afterwards.
Absolutely.
So I would just add in a couple of things.
First of all, I mean, I've heard about a couple of AI implementations
being put into certain social media algorithms that are going to be,
I think, vastly, I guess, emphasizing organic, natural, regular content
over anything else.
People have been calling these,
a lot of the algorithms, uh, primitive and everything. So that seems like it's a, it's a,
it's a change that is going to be very welcome on the other side, just to double down on, um,
what was just said about the smaller creators and everything. Like number one,
I have noticed this because I've been experiencing this basically firsthand.
So we had been looking at, you know,
larger creators and stuff to sort of shill and work on promoting our token and stuff for the
longest time. And recently, I believe in full disclosure about this stuff, by the way, like
the people should be open about this. That's the only way we can all learn from each other.
We started building out a smaller group with first of all our most core community members
and then like some of our friends from our networks and stuff like that and actually get
them to start posting stuff and for some people it's their first ambassador gig right it's so so
cool actually to have them be there and you can you can feel the excitement coming from them right
they get so motivated that is think, the most important point
that I was talking about is, you know,
if it's a big KOL, then it's just another job for them.
And with these other guys, like,
it might be their only one.
So they're going to put everything they have
into delivering the best freaking content there can be.
Not only that, but it motivates them to then,
it kind of validates their own pursuit
of their, like, content creation journey, right?
For me, that's one of the coolest things ever about it
is having those one or two people
that I started the whole thing with months ago,
and now at this point,
they are actually growing their account
and their followers is double what it was before.
And you can tell that they're gaining traction
and you're like, holy shit, this is so cool. I actually helped enable this that is awesome so i just wanted to add that in there
like when it comes to creators dude if you're like a minor creator one of the best things that you can
do in addition to pumping out content is networking right network is your net worth you know how all
of that works but you never know when your next friend is going to work for a project and they're going to need a small tier ambassador and they're suddenly going to reach out to you because that's literally what is happening right now.
Like my friends from like the last year or two who have been working on content, I reached out to and I said, hey, do you want a little gig, you know, as an ambassador?
So just to say like, yeah, people have been asking why i'm always so like obsessed nowadays with like
promoting smaller accounts uh i hope that explains why to a certain degree it definitely does nox and
i will say um maybe this ratio isn't 100 correct but i kind of feel like 10 genuine followers
that care about you as a human care about your content 10 genuine followers is vastly more
superior than 100 followers that
will just click your like for gm or when there's an airdrop or when there's like or kaito oh laudio
like you know just for the sake of monetizing you i i would much rather have two i'm sorry 10 genuine
followers 10 genuine friends and also also i feel like um this is i feel like i said this before but
man this uh this is one of the things that really grinds my gears. And it's that, you know, those accounts that posts about supporting small creators.
These are always the accounts that never support small creators.
I don't know why that is.
I have no idea why that is.
But these posts always get so much engagement.
When I kind of read it back, I'm just like, oh, are you guys really falling for this still?
Hey, come on, guys.
This is 2025. It's almost Q3. Let's come really falling for this still? Hey, come on, guys, this is 2025.
It's almost Q3.
Let's come on.
Let's pick up the pace.
Anyway, Future, I want to go to you,
and then we'll bring things home to Jordan
for some closing thoughts right after.
Yeah, no, I mean, it's been an amazing conversation today,
which is fantastic.
I think just one thing I'd want to add in here,
which is that this space talks a lot about culture,
but we don't have many avenues of cultural memory, right?
So the algorithm is always going for the new.
Anything that's more than 36 hours old is de-emphasised
and completely disregarded, essentially,
in terms of our collective memory.
And so I think just understanding that the environment on X
and a lot of the algorithms we work with don't have that long-term history to them
is something that we need to actively kind of be building to support around.
And, you know, I just think of the fact that it's like, well,
the best things we tend to learn in life
they're from they're from books that might be hundreds of years old sometimes thousands of
years when was the last time you read a Twitter post that was more than six months old right
and so we're losing that cultural memory and we act like goldfishers sometimes the new people in
here don't know what happens three weeks ago let alone three years ago and we haven't really fully supported that they're kind of the building of resources
for that I mean and I have to admit with KPR we only just six months ago released the KPR wiki
because we realized oh we've been building stuff for over two years and we have to have a place
where everybody can read about it right and and it it took us that long to actually put that place into action. And I think every project needs to be thinking about that.
The space as a whole needs to be thinking about that. And these kind of engagement programs,
I'd really love them to see them emphasize older but still solid information or data or lessons learned, shall we say, because we keep repeating
the same mistakes in this space. And I feel like that a lot of that is because the platforms we use
do not emphasize long-term cultural memory. 100%. And I think Jordan agrees with that as well.
Man, I'll be honest, you guys, when we kind of started today's topic, I was like, oh, man, are we going to get into like a whole everyone trying to support each other?
Are everyone trying to get EXP here or there?
But no, this turned out to be quite the educational and wholesome conversation.
So thank you guys so much for making this happen.
But on that note, I do want to pass the mic back to my co-host, man.
Jordan, talk to us, brother.
First of all, what are your closing thoughts for today's space? And of course, as per usual, what are some
upcoming updates happening with AITV right now that we should be paying more attention to?
Man, I'm smiling ear to ear. This was a fantastic conversation. So thank you so much to everyone
for all of your thoughts. And to just kind of summarize a little bit and to also give a quick update. So the last point about having long-term kind of cultural memory about your brand and not
just being a day-by-day feed, that's something that we're actively working on at AITV and
is a core part of our next upcoming agent launch.
agent launch. So we are on our third iteration of our agent architecture. We are about to release
So we are on our third iteration of our agent architecture.
it this coming Monday. And one of the core benefits of it is that it has this long-term
memory when it comes to what the agent has been doing, the interactions it has had with
individual users. Like we want the agent to feel like this, like never ending source of memories and
engagement and, you know, like one-on-one interactions with its audience so that you
can come there time and time again, and it remembers you and it can talk about, you know,
like, you know, what you've talked about in the past and also just give you updates on,
you know, like maybe it is the brand representative of one of your favorite projects.
And it can tell you like, Hey, last month we shipped this stuff and now we're working on this and dah, dah, dah.
So anyway, super excited about it, as you can probably tell.
We're going to be having an announcement coming out soon with our new agent architecture.
And additionally, you know, we have a new version of the app launching this coming week and it includes some major updates.
So we're very excited about turning attention into long term engagement and being able to
have brands actually create really sticky communities through the use of AI.
So fun times ahead.
Thank you so much for the conversation.
This was great. Thank you so much for the conversation. This was great.
Thank you so much, Jordan. Well, audience members, I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation as well as I did, as well as we all did. But it's kind of a TLDR. And to summarize things, yes, I think
the goal here really is about providing that genuine relationship building between you and
your community members, right? Turning the surface level attention
into the more in-depth and long-term engagement.
After all, wouldn't it be nice?
Wouldn't it be nice if this hype and attention
survived more than just 24 hours?
I think it will be.
But that being said, ladies and gents,
thank you so much for today.
And this will mark the end of our show.
But man, thank you once again
to all of our amazing panelists for the amazing, amazing conversation.
Once again, this is one of the most wholesome chats I've had in a while.
So thank you so much for being here and making that happen.
But also thank you, audience members, for all the likes, comments, and retweets.
Of course, we really do enjoy all the love and support you guys are throwing our way.
But one last time, make sure you guys are following the AITV House account.
And remember to turn on those notifications so you guys are following the ai tv house account and remember to
turn on those notifications so you guys don't miss out on any of the latest updates but until then
this is gonna be ice and jordan signing off and we'll see you guys in the next one peace
