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DePIN Expansion - Interchain Jam #24
Recorded: June 13, 2024 Duration: 1:17:10Space Recording
Full Transcription
Welcome everyone to Interchange M. Today we have more guests than usual, so it might
will take a little bit more to start. So while we wait for the guests' arrival, I start with
a short introduction of today's episode. Because today's episode is a bit unusual because we
are going to focus on only one specific narrative, which is the PIN. And even if the PIN is quite
popular at the moment, actually the PIN has a very long history in the Interchange ecosystem.
And I think that now that the Sentinel team will join, they can actually provide how early
this ecosystem has been on the PIN. Because I think that Sentinel specific starts in 2019,
and right after also Altea started to build on this ecosystem its own DIPIN project.
The section of the episode today will be three, and we will start with a reflection on how the
Interchange stack is enabling this project to build their product. Second section will be a focus on
each project and what they are building. And the third section will be a context on the Interchange
ecosystem. And how all these projects actually are building a product that serves as Interchange
services and helps the ecosystem grow. I will start by asking the guests to start to introduce
themselves. So we can start with Alexandre.
Alexandre Pacheco- Good morning, guys. Do you hear me well?
Alexandre Pacheco- Yeah, I hear you perfect.
Alexandre Pacheco- Yeah, all right. So I'm glad to hear all of you today. And yeah, thanks for inviting.
Alexandre Pacheco- My name is Alexandre. I'm CEO and founder of Sol Labs, the core developer
to Sentinel. It is a pleasure to be here with you today on this Spaces. And yeah, I'm looking forward
for a great discussion.
Alexandre Pacheco- Yeah, I don't think it's like Bloomberg where I saw you recently
speaking about a specific topic of censorship when it comes to internet and DVPN specific. But yeah,
I hope that you will find this space also quite helpful. In the meantime, I will let also Deborah
introduce herself.
Deborah Stempierre- Hi, thanks so much for having me here today. My name is Deborah Stempierre. I'm
the CEO and co-founder of Hawk Networks. Hawk Networks developed the protocol of Althea's
machine-to-machine building and routing stack along with a number of telecom technology and then also
the help develop the Althea L1 blockchain on the Cosmos SDK.
And it's great to have you here, especially because you're not only building a deputy project,
but also energy of this ecosystem. And it's great to hear your perspective during this space also
about the broader adoption of the SAC. We have also Denis from SwordChain. Feel free to introduce yourself.
Denis Pacheco- Hey, hello everyone. I'm Denis from SwordChain.
Denis Pacheco- I'm the co-founder and CTO. We are a mobility-focused layer one,
of course, built on top of Cosmos SDK. And it is designed to serve highly mobile nodes and to handle
extreme amounts of data. Our goal is to unlock the potential of the data and connectivity ecosystem
and mobility by providing this logical paradigm where everyone gets incentivized. All these parties
get involved in the mobility sector from car manufacturers to end users, which I will, of course,
elaborate on more throughout the space. Thank you.
Cool. Thank you for joining. We also have Patrick from Jackal Protocol, which is a project that
recently went through the rebrand. So I invite you to have a look to the new brand by visiting their page.
Welcome, Patrick.
Hey, how are things? Thanks for having me. First and foremost, my name is Patrick. I'm the co-founder
and CEO of Jackal Labs, where we build the Jackal Protocol. Just kind of the TLDR of the Jackal Protocol.
We do decentralized storage that makes storage self-custody. And we also do cross-chain integrations.
So blockchains are good at a lot of stuff. They're not great at storage. And what we do is we deliver
all that functionality locally cross-chain using IDC in the Interchain stack.
Cool. All right. Welcome, everyone. So the first section where I want to start a discussion
that will involve all of you specifically. It's about an overview of the Deepin narrative,
because right now it's quite popular. But actually, this is a narrative that is
quite early in this ecosystem. And probably the reason is because the stack and the Interchain stack,
specifically Cosmos SDK, ABC, etc., has that versatility that allow to build a Deepin project,
and especially to cover the needs of a Deepin project. So maybe we can start with Deborah to share
what is our view of the Deepin narrative and also in the prospect of the Interchain stack and why they
chose to build with the Interchain stack. Yeah, I think there's a lot of really exciting
things with blockchain in the kind of Deepin narrative that have been talked about for a long
time. But there was a lot of core technology that wasn't built that allowed people to sort of interact
with an abstract away of a lot of the blockchain pieces. People that use Althea for their home
internet don't know that they are really using blockchain at all. But that took a little while to
mature. And so I think that's why we see a lot of the more Deepin narratives actually taking some
traction here now. And it's taken us a while also to come over to the Interchain stack and launch on
this side. We've actually been on the Gnosis chain, but the EVM or kind of Gnosis or Ethereum-like chains
created a lot of problems with the intersection with the real world, right? A lot of the reorgs
that might be tolerable in a financial blockchain when you are dealing with a commodity, in our case,
bandwidth being exchanged between two parties, that reorganization creates real problems, especially
at scale. So kind of two main reasons why the Interchain, well maybe three, makes a lot of sense
for projects like ours is the, of course, the instant finality of the Tendermint stack. And so that
basically allows for none of those kind of reorgs, you know, once a transaction occurs. But that also,
there's also a lot of configurability of the block space that's really quite interesting for us,
because we do machine-to-machine payments in microtransactions. So when we think about how
that scales and prioritizing transactions, it makes a lot of sense for us to be here. And then the third is
the interoperability, right? So let's say we have machine-to-machine transactions, or we're doing
this RWA where we're tokenizing telco assets, but we want to be able to use Interchain accounts,
to use lending or DeFi on a Neutron or Osmosis or UMI or whatever, then the Interchain stack makes it easy
for us to interoperate with different chains. Thank you for this overview. And I want to go
over to Patrick because also Jack allows this kind of history where it first started, I think it was
on secret network, or at least they wanted to build on secret network, but then it expanded to their own
blockchain. So maybe can you share why this decision actually to build your own blockchain?
Yeah. Let me frame this first, right? So if you're building a deepened network, so when you're
building a traditional NFT marketplace or DEX, nothing against those applications. They're
awesome. They get profitable quickly and they're great, right? It's a single-dimensional thing where
you just ship it and it launches. And there's not that many moving parts involved, right? When
you're looking to build a decentralized physical infrastructure network, this kind of changes the
game where you have this situation where it's multi-dimensional, where you're combining peer
to peer networks and software and hardware and IoT sensors, cameras, sometimes possibly even robotics,
and just add a bunch of different layers and you need a bunch of things to go right for one thing to
work. In our case, that one thing being just storage to work. I think about choosing the Interchain
stack as a risk framework, right? When you're building on another blockchain,
you add this risk that you need another team or another party to actually ship upgrades for your
thing to work. And you already have so many different levels of risk that you need to have
sovereignty over the actual modules of the blockchain, the consensus of the blockchain,
block times, block sizes. All these different things are really, really core to the ability for
Jack to work. In that framework of thinking of it in risk, I would argue that there is nowhere else you
can build a Deepin network. In the sense that if you don't have full control over the consensus,
over the blockchain modules, the ability to build custom modules, add modules, bake things directly into
the chain, plus have the benefit of interoperability, it doesn't make sense to build anywhere else because
I just don't want to add more risk to something that is already a deep, deep tech startup, right?
I look at these Deepin networks, it's like, it's a deep tech startup at the end of the day. It's
like kind of like the biotechs of the Boston Dynamics of the blockchain world. And they're hard to build.
And it kind of goes into why I think that Deepin networks haven't been the flavor of the month until
very recently is just because it takes so long for us to get to market. But once we do, and we're
successful, it eats up huge chunks of the market in a weird way because you have so many competitive
advantages, it just takes a long time to build. So that's kind of the way that I kind of frame
the decision of moving to our own proprietary L1 blockchain. Yeah, I think that perfectly summarizes
some of the items. And I think it will be very useful for everyone that is listening that actually
wants to build this kind of network when they want to build their own Deepin product. And I think
that's also the new brand actually summarizes this because it's actually decentralized storage. I
love the word actually, especially for me, material. Because with your own blockchain, you can,
you can only with your own blockchain, you can achieve that kind of level of decentralization
and you need sovereignty for that. So I go with with Dennis and Swordchain, especially because
they are approaching mainnet. So they probably have even more insight on what it, what it means to launch
your own blockchain, especially when it comes to a Deepin product. So feel free to share your story
and and how it's going with the launch and with the experience of building with the Interchain stack.
Yeah, definitely. It's actually like a long story, but I'll try to summarize. So when we started,
we were actually designing this car to car communications and car to everything communications,
where all these nodes need to communicate with each other, similar to what Deborah actually said,
like micro transactions between these devices. But these transactions are actually data transactions.
They're exchanging data to use it for different applications, either real time or offline. So we've
developed some consensus mechanism, which was based off of helium's consensus mechanism. And we added
another layer on top of it because it was wireless plus mobile nodes. And the developments quickly got
out of hand. And we got a lot of overhead, we needed to develop networking stack, the consensus and all
those stuff. Then we met Tendermint core. And we started what we were able to do in like, maybe four
months, we were able to do with Tendermint in like two weeks, of course, this is like an initial prototype I'm
talking about. And after that, we've discovered Cosmos SDK. And it basically enabled us to bootstrap
the whole thing in about a week. And after that, we've noticed that we can actually develop these
custom modules, which were crucial for our use case, we have this proof of availability where
the vehicles are required to send data proofs to the network to actually prove their health and
availability so that they can have a good score where when they are asked data from they would be
responding to the data requesters. So the interchange stack actually made this very easy for us. And also
some other things on top of that. The Cosmosm part is also like a very flexible thing. It is a flexible,
upgradeable. And not only it enables the app chain itself, you it enables new applications to be
developed easily on top of it. And personally, I like it better than Solidity or any other virtual
machine logic. Of course, IBC is very important. It's out of the box interoperability with more than,
I guess, 100 plus chains right now. And of course, the community and the ethos of decentralization in
Cosmos was very important for us. Because although everyone, all the projects, all the L1s, all the
communities are talking about this, there are only a few that actually implements this in both on the
governance side, development side, which, of course, sometimes creates problems. But overall,
I think it is the most decentralized way of doing things. And of course, I cannot emphasize enough
the importance of the custom modules for our use case, because we also have the hardware aspect.
And we've implemented these privacy preserving systems, scaling solution, which depends on ZK proofs,
etc. All of these wouldn't be possible without the interchange stack. We've, by the way, experimented
with many, many EVM or EVM like chains, like Avalanche, Polygon, all these big names, but they
didn't really cut it. So on that side, we also have similar insights to what Deborah gave.
Can I just double click on something that Dennis just said right there is like about the custom
modules, right? And having the ability when he talked about data proofs, kind of going to the chain
and proving that a data exists, right? Or is valid and having verification in that. If you were to
build that as an app layer on another blockchain, and not have sovereignty, you would run into the
situation that we ran into as well, where the gas fees would get out of control because you don't
control what the gas fees are. So a lot of use cases would just be kind of yeeted out of existence,
just purely because of the unit economics wouldn't work, kind of goes into like custom modules as
well, where we were talking about data proofs is a big thing, but our proof of persistence protocol,
and the ability to kind of build custom code into the chain directly, rather than having it still
in the app layer and take up more compute. So in the by the end of 2020, I was actually
still a user and well, I am still a user, of course. But by the end of 2010, I was actually migrating my
dvpn from Ethereum to Cosmos SDK, specifically to the ecosystem. And the funny thing was that I think
that was the first time that was happening because probably Sentinel, it's the first project that
migrated from an Ethereum smart contract to the Cosmos ecosystem. And I'm actually curious why
this decision happened, why Sentinel decided to build with the Cosmos SDK so early, because I want
to remember that Sentinel is a project from 2018, so probably one of the earliest pioneers of the
dvpn narrative. So yeah, feel free to share this experience and why Sentinel was so early to recognize
that the Interchain stack, specifically Cosmos SDK, was the framework to build this product.
Yeah, that's actually a great question. So as you mentioned, Sentinel has been there for a long
time since 2018. And we started back back in these times with Ethereum, working as a smart contract on
top of that chain. And well, at the beginning, it was kind of okay. And it was working. We built a proof
of concept of our applications. We made it like working and showed the world that Sentinel is out
there. And it's possible to build a fully decentralized VPN, which is suitable for mass market use. But once we
started to evolve, and we're adding more and more features to Sentinel itself, we noticed that we started
to not develop, but rather work and combat against Ethereum restrictions, Ethereum paradigm, if you'd like.
And on top of that, just exactly the thing that Patrick has mentioned previously regarding fees.
Fees are crucial when we're talking about dpn, especially about Sentinel, because if they got out
of control, then the costs of operating this dpn infrastructure is going unpredictable, basically.
So yeah, we made some time ago, we made this decision, which we very happy about, even today,
to switch on Cosmos. And this brought to us a lot of perks, which we are using to this date. First of all,
and most important, is that it's a complete sovereignty over our own blockchain, which we
can modify as we wish to make sure that it's specifically tailored for the purpose that our
project exists for. The second thing, which is also quite important, that there's a unified ecosystem.
Cosmos is not just an SDK, it is a whole ecosystem, which you can basically integrate with different
modules, because Cosmos SDK is basically a modular framework. And it's way more powerful,
comparing to Ethereum in terms of scalability, because we see that it's built to support high
transactions through output, which is essential for applications like Sentinel. It may require frequent
transactions between users and dpn nodes. And Ethereum, it is not something that suits for that
really well, I would say. And of course, cherry on top of that is a tendermint consensus, which is
known for its efficiency, its ability to handle high number of transactions per second. It's a faster
finality compared to Ethereum proof of work, or even newer proof of stake model that they have at this
moment. Cosmos is still in that term doing way better. And yeah, since we switched to Cosmos,
IBC appeared, and we have integrated that as well. It is absolutely insane how just by integrating IBC,
which now comes literally out of the box, we enabled multiple different tokens to be accepted as a means
of payment for a dvpn traffic. And now, if comparing to like past years, we were accepting on the dvpn tokens,
some OGs remember them as sent tokens, used to be named differently. Now we accept literally everything
what is running on top of Cosmos SDK, and even a bit more, because of IBC. So if you're holding,
let's say, USDT tokens on IBC, or you're holding Osmosis, ATOM, whatever, whatever might be, then you're
able to pay with these tokens for your dvpn traffic, which is also important in terms of predicting the
price of service you get from the Sentinel. So for end customers, end users, and for the node
owners as well, this is one of the key important aspects.
Yeah, I have to confess that one of the categories that actually I like the most in blockchain is
actually the dvpn category, because each of these projects has a critical mission that really touched
the real world impact. And I'm curious to go exactly on the focus that each of you have,
and your specific product, because probably there is a story behind on why each of you decided to
focus specifically on that. I would ask Deborah why she decided to focus on connectivity,
because I still remember already from years, probably, because the adoption of Altea from a
user perspective started very early. All the rural area that were using the Altea services,
so why you decided to go with that specific mission and build this specific product?
Yeah, that's a great question, and a story that I love to share, right? So the three of us
co-founders of Altea, which is myself, Jahan Trimbek, and Justin Kilpatrick, really kind of came together
in 2017, looking at this problem of, you know, internet connectivity. And I think most people,
people, no one's really gonna say they love their ISP, right? Why doesn't that work? And more
particularly, like in the US, you know, arguably, you think most people should have good internet,
but it's about one in four that don't actually have adequate internet here. And it's interesting,
too, because part of where we realized it was a real systemic issue was that, and not just a funding
problem is that actually before even 2019, 2020, the US had spent over $100 billion to make less than
a 1% dent in, you know, connectivity. So the US is coming up with another 40 billion now, right? And,
you know, it really doesn't solve the problem because you have very inefficient designs, very debt heavy,
you know, CapEx. So we realized that the system was not only not working for users who were siloed
into, you know, contracts, or this sort of monthly rental payment for kind of shit internet.
And it didn't really work for providers either. So, you know, the big telcos of the world are not evil.
They're also trying to, you know, build in a cost effective way that, you know, is efficient,
and they would like to have another 25% of the market as well. So it was really where we, you know,
we really took a deep dive in the system design and realized that, you know, the same kind of open
access market that we saw at the core of the internet, the internet exchange could be, you know,
sort of brought all the way down to the edges of the network, where users can decide, you know,
their choice of cost or latency on a, you know, minute by minute basis, on a dynamic basis,
and providers could build in a more efficient way and pay, like, users or pay, pay different
providers in the network programmatically. So it's been really exciting to, yeah,
see that early traction. I actually came across a user that has been online with the same equipment
since 2018, loving their internet, you know, and just to see that not only the product market fit
of the system design that Althea built, but also to see that now, you know, taking traction in urban
areas and, you know, have been around and sustainable for now three, four, sometimes even five or six
years. It's just been pretty exciting. Yeah, I think this is the beauty of this category because
it's how it touched the real world and the impact real people around the world that goes beyond also
from many economic speculation related to tokens, etc, etc. So it's beautiful how this infrastructure
enables also users that are not necessarily crypto-native to actually be onboarded in this world.
And I would ask to Dennis, why they decided to focus on mobility? Because mobility, it became probably
a big topic for blockchain, especially with the automatic car and how the car industry is evolving,
especially with the electric vehicle. So feel free to share the focus of blockchain on mobility.
Yeah, definitely. So actually, before Soarchain, I was working on autonomous vehicles. And in general,
I've been in the automotive industry for about 10 years, where we've seen a lot of developments on
the autonomous vehicle side, but they hit a wall. And we saw that the reason for this was the lack of a
connectivity layer. And we started building that layer. But quickly after that, we got all the
hardware layer, firmware software layer in our hands. And it was like many OEMs, car manufacturers,
different companies from the car industry were very interested in the technology. But one of the issues,
again, to maybe resemble the telco problem is that these automotive companies, they also want to grow
their business, they also want to generate new revenue streams, new business opportunities, but
they really don't know how to all of that. They all look up to other companies such as Tesla,
Tesla, who's done this in a very right way. They're like a data company and not an automotive company.
So the first reason was that this whole structure was not working in the automotive industry,
the car manufacturers, they want to implement this technology to their cars, but they don't have the
necessary manufacturing pipelines to do so even adding like a 10 $20 module on top of their cars,
which would ultimately bring a lot of benefits. They can only do within five years, 10 years,
year periods because they are very slow moving in terms of how they act on the technology. When we look
at the end user side, it is very easy to get people to put this device, which the automotive company
could have put and grow the network in that way, instead of going through the B2B route. And that is,
I think one of the most important strengths of Deepens where you actually distribute the whole
capital expense to, instead of going through a single company, which would be a huge burden and
ultimately fails for them. It is distributed to the people, which ultimately benefits the people
themselves. And blockchain in that sense, and having all these people included in this incentive
structure is also a very new and novel approach, at least in mobility, because previously you had
these car companies, they did whatever they wanted, and they didn't really collaborate with each other.
And the end users were always left out. In terms of privacy, you weren't really, you were completely
ignored, your data was being sold or used for many purposes. And ultimately, this brings an
even, even it evens out the whole ecosystem and brings all the stakeholders together. And that's how
we decided to tackle the problems problems in the mobility through the use of decentralized ledger and
other distributed technologies.
Yeah, I think that to summarize so far, what I'm seeing is that each project solve a specific needs,
specifically a specific problem. And definitely Sentinel also is going to tackle a very important mission,
because I think the Sentinel will definitely, is definitely focusing on privacy and censorship,
also in some challenging area of the world. So I will, I will ask to Alexandra why Sentinel decided to
focus on this mission, because it's probably a mission that it's very hard to, to follow, because it's,
it's, it's definitely a very sensitive topic. So feel free to share your, your insights on this.
Yeah, thanks. So the general mission that we have is basically bringing freedom of internet connectivity,
and including freedom of speech and the freedom to stay online, anonymous and private and ensure the
integrity of your communications for everyone. And it started back in 2000,
I believe 2018, maybe, maybe even earlier, where we saw that there is a basic global crackdown on internet
freedoms. It seems like this was an exact point where different governments, different countries,
different authorities realized the threat that comes from,
uh, threat for them that comes from a free, uh, free, uh, free internet, uh, free, uh, online communications.
And, uh, unlike, uh, unlike regular, uh, web 2.0, where they can basically ban anything or restrict
their citizens from accessing certain information. Uh, they cannot do the same thing with, with web 3.0.
And, uh, the main mission for Sentinel is basically to enable, uh, every, uh, every user out there in the world,
uh, with, uh, all necessary tools to, uh, access any data they want and decide for themselves whether they would like
to access something and read something or not. Uh, as we believe that, uh, most of the people are full-grown
adults and they can decide for themselves, which, uh, which information they are, uh, they are able
to see in which information they do not need. Uh, so we don't need something parenting us. Right. Uh,
and a little bit of my personal story since I, uh, I'm originally from Russia and, uh, in 2018,
Russian government tried it, uh, to try to ban telegram, uh, which was, uh, by far most, uh, used messenger in
Russia because telegram refused to delete certain, uh, telegram channels related to opposition, uh, related
to free media and, and so on. And, uh, there was a huge fight, uh, between the government and the people
who, uh, stood their ground for, uh, online freedoms. And, uh, luckily, uh, they won, like the people, people won,
uh, they were able to make sure that telegram is still accessible, uh, for most of the people in
Russia, despite the fact that it was indeed blocked and, uh, people were able to still access it.
So now we see that it goes on a much, much bigger scale. Uh, and, uh, for example, following this, uh,
war that is currently happening, uh, a lot of countries, they're banning free information,
independent information, independent journalism, and feeding people with the propaganda.
So, uh, citizens of these countries aren't able to access, uh, independent information,
independent journalists freely. And, uh, it is crucial for us, uh, to make sure that we provide
them with such a possibility. There is, uh, there's been a lot of progress done by Sentinel in that
aspect, uh, since, since the moment it was launched. Uh, we, we made several applications
available with the other developers and ourselves, uh, which are built on top of Sentinel. And all of
them are, uh, following the main, like the main idea that we have that despite the fact that Sentinel
is a web 3.0 stuff and it is a blockchain, we don't want anyone who is using applications built on top
of Sentinel even have any idea that there is anything blockchain related involved, but they will still
benefit out of it because it's still working under the hood. So that's exactly, uh, idea, uh, was
incorporated into multiple applications that is currently running on top of Sentinel. And we, uh,
we basically see that there is a tens, hundreds of thousands of people actually, uh, using Sentinel-based
applications across the world in the countries with the most regulated internet connections,
such as Turkmenistan, Iran, China, Russia, and many others. Uh, for instance, at the moment,
we see that total unique number of users per month, uh, uh, is, uh, basically monthly active users. We can
call it, uh, 300,000, uh, 359,000 users are using Sentinel, uh, to access web and, uh,
just, just, just for today, uh, since the beginning of the day, uh, three terab, over three terabytes of
data, uh, was used. And, uh, there's, uh, over seven, uh, 7.5 thousand DVPN nodes available worldwide,
meaning that there is at least 7.5 thousand volunteers decided to, uh, spin up their own, um, DVPN nodes
and provide, uh, and contribute to this global mission that we have in Sentinel, uh, helping us
bringing this, uh, secure, uh, connection to the free world, uh, for, for those who are in need.
Uh, so that's, um, that's our mission. That's what we believe for. And, uh, going a little bit forward,
uh, we even saw that there is, uh, for example, in Turkmenistan, there is, uh, not so much, uh,
concerns about government blocking websites because it, it has been like that for a long time,
but now they're like banning VPN services. And while we see that classical VPN services, which
are centralized, like NordVPN, ExpressVPN, whatever, uh, they are not able to work in Turkmenistan.
They're completely unavailable here, uh, there, uh, and, uh, and at the same time, we see that people
who are using Sentinel-based apps are able to access VPN and government, despite the fact that they're
actually trying to ban it, they're not able to do so. And people, uh, there's a lot of people coming
online from, from these, uh, countries which suffer from the same, uh, issues that we previously
discussed. So yeah, that's, that's the general mission that we have and we following it. Uh,
we also aiming on launching with the, uh, other developers, uh, several more apps, uh, based on
top of a Sentinel, which aims specific regions, uh, specific audiences, um, later this year. And,
uh, we see that, uh, throughout last, last year Sentinel experienced significant growth as,
as never before. And, uh, yeah, we, uh, I'm, I'm thrilled to look forward and see what,
what we can achieve at the end of this year. And, uh, I believe that we at least will triple,
uh, current statistics that we have, but, uh, this is like plan minimum. We aiming much higher.
Yeah. Well, I will say that, uh, already in the context of the ecosystem, uh, that's quite
a impressive statistic, especially in terms of user adoption. And I think that also the,
the mission that you actually shared beautifully, how, how the tank compass, uh, real world problems,
and now you are trying to solve it with a network that is actually decentralized because otherwise
it wouldn't be possible to achieve this mission. I will go to Patrick because, uh, actually, uh,
Jackal connects these two world of privacy with the cloud storage world. So, uh, feel free to
summarize, uh, Jackal mission and, uh, how your guys are, uh, are looking to, to move forward in
terms of, uh, of Jackal protocol. Yeah, for sure. So essentially we made Jackal to, uh, serve a need
that we had. So myself and Marston, uh, the other co-founder of the Jackal protocol, we were working
digital forensics investigations for law firms and corporations. And, um, when you're working in
digital forensics, you need to have something called the clean forensic environment. This means
that you need to make sure that you are the only person has access to that drive and you have chain
of custody of that drive and all the contents in the drive, right? Um, when you need to do something
like that, SAS applications don't really exist in that world purely because of the fact that you can't
self-custody a drive or self-custody data in a cloud environment, because there's a third party,
there's back doors, they have access at all times to that data. Therefore it can be tampered with,
it can be lost, all these different things, right? And you don't have ownership and custody of that.
So what we started doing is we started building Jackal to serve that specific need for like this
e-discovery tool for court that we were building, um, internally at a previous company. And, uh,
Jackal kind of grew into something bigger than that, where now, uh, it's more of a general
purpose cloud environment where, uh, your data can be not only omnipresent, but just exclusively yours,
um, while still having the benefits of scalability in the cloud. Um, so our mission is to just increase
the digital privacy and cybersecurity posture of, uh, of the world by having a more secure con environment.
Um, why, why do it on blockchain routes? There's, um, something really interesting about blockchains
that no one really uses it for, right? Uh, you have this magic spreadsheet that's never wrong.
What did we do with it? We made NFTs and we made money and we made tokens and the ability to transact
and freedom to transact. And that's awesome. But there is one thing that blockchains do that a lot of people
kind of don't exploit in the way that, uh, you want to kind of create a cybersecurity product on top of
it. Blockchains can't be broken into like traditional systems. This is really novel, right?
Where, um, with traditional systems, like you put like firewalls and you have perimeter defense and
you have intrusion detection, but kind of once you get over those walls and hurdles as a hacker,
once you're inside, you're inside, right? And it's free reign. Blockchains can't be broken into
and they're hardened at its core for you to hack a blockchain and break into a Jacko's permission
system. For example, it's economically stupid and just completely impractical. You need to take over
the majority of the nodes. Uh, and you have to kind of have like these crazy economic attacks, or you
have to get like crazy collusion to happen where there's a bunch of parties involved and these
don't really happen at all anymore. Any blockchain worth its weight doesn't have a way for, for users
to kind of get in and, um, alter the actual transactions themselves. It just doesn't happen.
And, uh, just don't take my word for it. It's been in practice for years and all, if, if blockchains were
able to get hacked like that, um, then we would be really worried about self-custaining our tokens.
So instead of using the spreadsheet for tokens and who has what money at what time, Jacko uses it for
who has what data at what time, and then layers on encryption to make sure that only the end user
with their private key can access the files. But, uh, you also have the ability to go anywhere in
the world with that private key or that ledger and, uh, plug it into your computer and your drive is
right there. Um, no one has access to it other than you. And, uh, that's kind of what we've been
doing and blockchains are awesome. They can make security guarantees and commitments that, uh,
legacy companies can't. Um, and that's, uh, really what we're looking to do.
Yeah. And I like also this perspective, uh, on how all of this, all this project, uh, touch
both organization, uh, other blockchain, but also the single user. So it's actually encompass
all the aspects of, uh, uh, of a blockchain business. I actually didn't wanted to use the
word business because sometimes it reminds too much traditional finance, but, uh, that's probably
the correct one. I actually want to go more on focus on, uh, each of this project because, uh, uh,
we, we saw the mission now, and, uh, I think it's, uh, something that was very exciting to listen
because, uh, it's actually coming from the needs that are in the real world and, uh, blockchain
actually solved these needs and, uh, they explained it well, very well how it is solving all these
needs around the world. Now I want to, I want to dive more in the feature of, uh, each of your
products and specifically if there is, uh, any feature that you guys want to highlight, I, I will
start with, then it's if, uh, if you, if you want to like a specific feature that is coming on
source and especially also because your mainnet is approaching and, and can be interesting for
a user to know and using it. Yeah. Um, so, uh, what we have been testing, so we are on
incentivized test nets. We have been on it for about a year now, and it's been really active for the past
four months. Um, we've seen like a surge in the number of vehicles and the accounts that, uh, who are
using sourcing, uh, and we have been rigorously testing proof of availability, which I mentioned,
the vehicles are required to send a proof of their available data and not the data itself necessarily,
but the proof of it, uh, when, uh, with a unique fingerprint, which they receive when registering to
the network. So this, uh, creates a score for them or a health score and uptime connectivity score for them.
And ultimately this would mean, uh, that the, anyone who needs data from the cars would actually be able
to pick from whom to ask for this data. And one of the most important aspects, uh, that we will be
rolling out as a data provision request. So, um, normally until now people were, uh, rewarded by the
protocol for their contributions on the proof of availability. And starting from, uh, the mainnet,
uh, the data provision requests will also become active where people will now be asked, uh, for
specifically for their, let's say, uh, a company needs a tire pressure data from 3000 vehicles for three
months. And, uh, from certain types of cars and your car is one of the eligible ones. You specifically get
asked, uh, uh, whether you opt in to provide your data or not. And if you opt in, you also start receiving
direct, um, payments from the data consumer, the data, uh, requester themselves alongside the already
existing network rewards. So that is one thing. Uh, a second thing is that, uh, we're also valuing a lot is the runner
architecture, which we have recently announced maybe a couple of weeks ago, uh, where the scaling of
the network is highly dependent on the individual nodes themselves. So we knew that there would be
like terabytes and terabytes of data per day per car, uh, that we would be dealing with.
And this is really, it, of course, doesn't make sense, uh, to do anything with that,
the whole data on chain. So we brought the scaling layer where the vehicles themselves and the devices
inside the vehicles would actually verify each other's proofs so that it wouldn't be burdening
the layer one itself. And from the layer one's perspective, it would just be verifying the
aggregated proofs and not even doing any proving or recomputing the whole thing. So with the runners,
um, people will be able to run these verification notes that helps the network scale. And of course they
get a portion of, uh, the network rewards as well, which we encourage everyone to run because
it is, um, it can be thought of as similar to validators, but it is much more accessible,
much, uh, with a much, uh, lower barrier of entry. Uh, and ultimately it can have, uh, infinite,
we can have infinite number of runners.
And in the future, they will also be used for different purposes, such as running AI algorithms,
checking data plausibility that is coming from the vehicles and also, um, creating
proofs for the data that they are generating. So these are, these are some of the, uh,
features that I wanted to highlight that we're very excited about.
Well, that's quite exciting. And probably this is, I finally have a reason to change my car
because it's quite old that I doubt that any company would be interested in my data.
So that's probably a good time to do it, even if I prefer bicycle right now, but yeah,
that's, you actually provided me a good reason to, to try your product.
I will go, I will go to, to Deborah and Altea because, uh, I'm pretty sure there is some exciting
feature that you want to share. And, uh, I also personally was reading about the deep index
and I was curious to know more about it. So feel free to share any feature that is coming to Altea.
Yeah, I'm super excited. It's kind of hard even to kind of know where to, where to start after,
you know, kind of building on the Nosa chain for so many years. We are now
have a live mainnet on, um, on the Cosmos SDK stack. And, um, while every, you know,
all transfers are disabled, but we're kind of in this bootstrapping phase, there's a lot of really
exciting things that are kind of coming around the corner or that we'll be like sharing to have
people, um, participate in the test nets around and the deep index as one of them. So one of the really,
you know, kind of exciting evolutions of Altea's machine to machine payments is, um,
that, uh, uh, we have a lot of enterprise demand to be able to interoperate with other kinds of
deep end tokens that, um, or, you know, maybe an MNO or an enterprise comes to us and said,
look, we want to create our own token that then also has a way to interact with, uh, the stable
coins in the Altea environment, USDC, USDT, et cetera. Um, so the deep index was really set up
in response to that kind of overwhelming demand to not only be able to do the, you know, the
microtransactional platform, but be able to, um, uh, since you have that user there to be able to
work with them, um, you know, incentivize certain other deep end behaviors, or, you know, maybe you
want to set up, uh, you know, or even interact with sort chain or something like that, have the tokens
there, um, and, uh, and then swap to USDC. So we, we've set up this really kind of unique deep index
platform that will, um, that is sped up in a bespoke manner for, uh, deep end type tokens,
right? So it's not just a normal kind of financial index. Um, it also leads to this other really
exciting, um, evolution of Althea, which is, um, on the funding side and the capital side of building
infrastructure. So the protocol itself, the routing and billing is really great at handling how we fund
and coordinate networks, uh, excuse me, or how we operate coordinate networks, how we build them.
But what we realized according, you know, in order to scale was that we need a more capital
efficient way to kind of fund networks. And so that, um, sometime last year, liquid infrastructure
was born and liquid infrastructure is essentially tokenizing that account and the telecom asset that
goes with it. And, you know, perhaps it's other assets as things go along to maybe energy or
something like that. Well, let's say you have, you know, 10 miles of fiber optic cable that you
want to bundle, um, in your network with a few other fiber optic towers, tokenize those,
and then perhaps, and fractionalize it and sell maybe 25% of that, those, that network of assets.
And of course there's subsequent revenues. And, um, so that all allows us, so liquid infrastructure
allows us to do that and allows more people to participate in, in, in funding or find different
ways to coordinate networks, um, and, and, and build them perhaps even, um, you know, more locally
oriented. Uh, and that also will, um, be part of the deep index as well too, because that allows
people to, to take that USDC that they're earning, um, from their, from their networks and then, um,
you know, swap them into other tokens or participate in other things as well. So, um, it is really exciting
to have PMF, have product market fit, have something that works and makes a real impact
and now evolve it into, um, where we're at with scaling. So super excited and, um, you know,
really appreciate being able to share, share the vision.
Thank you for sharing. Definitely exciting. And I'm also interested to see played out.
And, uh, I want to ask to Patrick, uh, uh, what is any feature that you want to share about
Jackal, especially because there are a lot of recent updates that I was just reading a couple
of days ago. So feel free to share it. Yeah, for sure. Um, well, at its core,
when we don't want to talk about features, like when you think about storage and web three,
you think about like a file cleaner airwave, those guys are awesome at what they do, which
is like cold storage archiving. But when it comes to like speed and privacy and self custody,
um, they're, they're not the play. And what's awesome about Jackal just out of the gate is it's
proof of stake. It's the only proof of stake storage all one right now, um, which is super
exciting. So we have speeds that are hot storage, like speeds. Um, when it comes to other features,
like obviously we have, uh, we have three apps that are in beta on mainnet right now.
Um, I would encourage everyone to go try it out and give us your feedback. We're iterating on them
right now and they're all kind of going into their different versions and they're out of different
product life cycles. But, um, there's one interesting feature about the Jocker protocol that,
isn't available anywhere else. And this is interesting, not only to like web three users,
but also web two users as we've seen with, uh, there's a telecom company in Iowa that
has started to back up their user data to Jackal. The ability to have multi-region verifiable back
backups for data. What does this mean? This means that, um, you, first and foremost, you have data
that's stored three times in three different places. Um, you're self custodial of that. So no one can
access it. Even the storage providers that storage store it, uh, without your encryption keys.
And then the, the third thing is that let's say that one of those storage providers goes offline,
there's an outage, or there is a, uh, natural disaster and the data center's cooked.
The blockchain will realize that that file is down. And because that storage provider is not posting
storage proofs anymore, it will break that storage deal. And then it will send out a new one to a new
storage provider and it will auto heal from the other two forms of redundancy on the network.
Um, this is arguably like the most resilient way for you to have your data maintain uptime and
maintain resiliency because it's kind of like storage whack-a-mole, right? One goes offline
and then just pops up on the other side of the world, which is, uh, it's pretty special. So,
um, businesses that we've seen so far, like web through users, they love privacy,
they love security, they have self custody, ownership, all these great things that are
in line with the values of blockchain technology. But, uh, from what we've seen so far, the, uh,
the traditional enterprises, they're not really ready. They, they, they don't want to deal with
blockchain technology. They don't understand wallets. They don't want to buy Adam on Coinbase and then
transfer it over to Osmosis and swap for Jackwell, then IBC over to Jackwell and buy storage.
Um, but what they do want is multi-region verifiable backups, um, that is 200%
cheaper than anything else on the market and at auto-heals. Uh, so that is the killer use case
that we've seen so far on the enterprise side of things. And, uh, it's just an awesome,
it's an awesome, um, blockchain module that we have for our proof of persistence and internal
detection of loss protocols. Uh, so that would be it. I think that that's the, the best feature of
Jackwell right now. Yeah, there's definitely also a great competitive advantages, especially,
I guess, all these, uh, traditional web to cloud storage application. And, uh, I want to ask to
Alexander, uh, because Sentinel, uh, and I'm speaking now as also one of the user early of Sentinel,
there was several application built on Sentinel. Like I remember DOG Center application and there was
actually solar VPN. So Sentinel actually allows also to create this framework for, uh, application,
maybe an application to be built on top on Sentinel, which is probably one of the most, uh,
interesting feature how it can expand and give access to this decentralized network. So feel free to
share, uh, uh, your insight on, uh, Sentinel features and, uh, yeah, let's go ahead.
Yeah, sure. Uh, so besides being a great framework for building your own, uh, DVPN applications, uh, we
are planning on giving much more, uh, usable tools for both users and developers. So first of all,
I would like to start with, uh, uh, all new SDK that we currently developing and we will be able to ship
later this summer, uh, which will allow not only to build your own, uh, very custom DVPN application
on top of Sentinel, but also just integrate Sentinel capabilities of bypassing any original restrictions
into your existing app that might do anything like, uh, for example, TikTok, right? If TikTok gets
banned on, uh, US territory, if they integrate, integrate Sentinel's SDK that we're currently developing,
they will be able to provide their service, uh, still, and, uh, no one will be able to block them.
So basically this is a very easy plug, uh, plug and play SDK that will enable any application to become
instantly connected to the web 3.0 means of communications, making basically it, uh, invincible
for global censorship and online restrictions. That's the first thing that we're currently working
on and we're thrilled to deliver it later this summer. As I said, the next thing that we currently
also focused on is, uh, AI scope, uh, of tools, uh, AI rocks today. We, we can see that the chat GPT is,
uh, is doing great and, uh, more and more companies starting to integrate, uh, AI into their products.
And there is also a lot of developers out there who are building their own custom, uh, AIs,
but there is a one thing that everybody like in terms of, uh, small and medium sized companies and,
uh, private teams and private developers are lacking. Uh, this is data scraping data. Scraping is, uh,
well, um, quite complicated problem, uh, to solve for a private person. And, uh, since Sentinel already
possess, uh, a huge network of decentralized nodes, we would like to enable, uh, AI developers to use these
nodes for data scraping, uh, to get, uh, information they need to train their language models, uh, and,
and machine learning models, uh, using decentralized network, uh, exactly the same way as normal user
would access this data. And, uh, uh, since we see that there is a lot of services are preventing people
from, uh, uh, doing data scraping, um, by like restricting rate limiting or by IP address or something
else. Um, DPN is there to assist, to bypass these limitations and allow, um, AI developers to scrape
data freely using this decentralization part. There's one other thing I'd like to mention regarding this,
uh, DVPN part. We all remember this, uh, DeFi projects, for example, agent layer, they were told,
uh, to basically prevent access, uh, from VPN services. So no one else like from other countries
will be able to access certain DeFi projects. And, uh, well, yeah, they did ban VPN services, classic ones,
but DVPN, it still works and still allows people to connect to, uh, these DeFi services,
no matter if they even have, uh, imposed restrictions on, uh, on the classic VPN services.
So yeah, these are the scope of tools that we're currently working on. Uh, we're building on,
uh, DVPN SDK that will allow web 3.0 capabilities for any application out there for any platform
and AI data scraping tools that we believe gonna be a tremendous leap for AI developers, uh, in terms
of data scraping. Thank you for sharing, especially to see, it's great to see Sentinel also tapping into AI,
which is, uh, probably the most popular narrative right now, I would say. It's probably my feed is, uh,
it's definitely quite rich on the AI posts. Uh, I have actually one last round of questions. So if, uh,
any of the guests, uh, can go over time, feel free to, to share if, uh, if actually needs to go or, uh,
can stay here another 15 minutes. You can also just put a thumbs up.
Yeah, I'm good to go. Hi, um, I do have to jump at nine. Um, so, uh, I appreciate that,
but definitely appreciate the time and opportunity to, uh, to share what we've been working on.
Cool. If, if you want, I can start, uh, with you, with your question or, uh, if you need to jump,
uh, thank you for, uh, for joining us today.
Yeah, appreciate being here. Um, if anyone does have questions, we are, uh, available in the,
in our discord or certainly even Twitter, um, please feel free to reach out. We'd love to,
uh, answer those for you. And again, thank you so much for, um, hosting us here on Interchange Jam.
It's super excited to see, um, the deep end industry really, uh, growing and, and having
traction within the Cosmos ecosystem.
Thank you for joining us. It's been great to learn more about Altea and its mission.
I, I go now to the next section, which is, uh, how your project fits into the Interchange ecosystem.
And this will be the last section so that, uh, everyone can go and back to work because
I'm sure it's, uh, the day is still quite busy. So, uh,
what I mean with this question is, uh, whatever your project does, basically also, uh, a focus
on providing an Interchange service, which means that actually can serve other blockchain.
And I think I can start with, uh, with Patrick, because probably cloud storage is very peculiar
to, to follow exactly this narrative. And, uh, so how Jekyll can actually being an Interchange
service provider and actually serve blockchain and providing a services that can be useful.
Yeah, for sure. Let me take a step back and like kind of frame why you would want to kind of deliver
a solution like this cross chain in the first place. Right? So let's say that like I'm a developer,
I'm on Archway, for example, and I'm building an NFT marketplace. And if I want to store the JPEGs of the NFT,
they're not stored on chain because they don't fit on chain and they're too expensive to store
on chain. So you've got to store it somewhere. Right now that developer has two choices.
Choice number one is I integrate AWS or Microsoft Azure, and I just use that API and plug it into
my platform, uh, creating like a centralized choke point of failure. Um, if you forget to pay the
credit card, the NFTs are gone and that's pretty, uh, it was pretty spooky, right? Um, option number
two, I want to have decentralized storage. I want to have self custody and programmable privacy and all
these different features. Um, if I want to do that, I actually have to, before Jack was around,
I would have to pick up my entire application and then move it to a monolithic storage L1.
That's proof of work like a file coin or an error. And I would have to leave my liquidity,
my community, my friends, uh, your, uh, your internal biases behind, and you have to go build directly
on that storage L1. This creates like this weird dynamic where if this is the case and it is what
the case is, that means that the storage L1s are competing with the general purpose smart contract
L1s in a zero sum game for the same developers and users. We think that's kind of silly, right?
Because when you look at like, what do we look at as a blockchain? It's a shared computer for all.
Um, when you have a shared computer for all, um, you kind of want to, what if you want to have
like better computer, better storage, this is kind of how Jack will, by choosing the inner chain tech
stack as a decision in the early days, this means that now we can provide a big old hard drive to
other blockchains and plug in cross chain. So this means that developer with a simple smart contract
call can use Jack will natively on chain purpose built for decentralized applications first with a
simple smart contract call and have it integrated at the chain level, um, directly with our application.
This also works for users. If a user likes a specific blockchain or like to stay on that blockchain,
but they want to have a personal drive, um, we can deploy a front end on that blockchain.
And now they have all the functionality of Jack will locally on that chain.
This gives us like this crazy competitive advantage, right? Where now we have the situation where physics
is on our side, where instead of us trying to convince or force users to come to us and builders to
come to us, we can just go and deploy an outpost on a blockchain and inherit all the developers and users.
So now, um, we can have in our end game is in the blockchain space,
at least is making sure that every user or developer on every blockchain that's general purpose, uh,
can access scalable storage with a simple smart contract call also works for validators.
For example, you want to do chain state, uh, you want to have, um, kind of like data availability,
but the data is available, um, like to download and stuff like that for like web skill applications.
We can do that as well. So, um, it's pretty exciting to have the ability to do distribution
via IDC rather than kind of, um, force it with grants and stuff for people to come build on us.
And so now we're in a situation where we don't want people to build on us. We just want to come to you.
Yeah. And, uh, I actually see that there is, uh, many blocks that are now following this outpost
strategy. And it's also interesting to see how the development, uh, like the idea are changing from
thinking to your own blockchain, but more on basically how to build an application that works
around IBC and this interconnectivity. So that's definitely very, very interesting.
Yeah. Like it's, it's pretty cool, right? Just having the ability for you to deliver value
to other chains and make them better and just turn every chain into like a file coin or an AR with,
but in this case, it would be a jackal.
I want to ask to, to, to Dennis, uh, also outsourcing, uh, plan to feeds, uh, uh, when, uh,
when it will be main net in the, in the broader intention ecosystem, how do you see search in
position itself and whatever it will also provide services to other blockchains?
Yeah, this is a bit more tricky question for me to answer since we're like very vertically aligned,
at least at the moment, uh, we're actually the idea also this, this has been discussed, uh, by the other
founders as well. Uh, like we're serving a lot of non-crypto people who ultimately wouldn't even know
that there's like a blockchain, uh, working, uh, on the background and they would be just using this
thing for the sake of solving their real life problems, enhancing their mobility experiences.
So our first focus is of course to enable that to like improve the user experience and ultimately,
uh, include more and more applications within our ecosystem that would tackle their already existing
and to be honest, very simple to solve problems. Uh, but when we look at the underlying technology
that we've been developing, we had to develop it, uh, specifically for mobility use cases where
the data is constantly streaming and it is stream even a single vehicle is generating a lot of data.
So the scaling layer itself and the runner architecture itself could in fact be integrated
even, um, to the hub itself or any kind of, um, IBC enabled, um, chain could in fact
use the runner architecture to get, um, data that is verified for its authenticity, integrity,
and most importantly, plausibility. So that's one of the things we're tackling since, uh, we're dealing
with real life data that's coming from actual sensors that reside, um, in the physical realm.
There's basically a lot of ways to recreate that data, simulate, or game that data. And the runner
architecture ultimately tackles that issue where the data is verified for it's alongside the integrity
and authenticity, it's verified for the plausibility so that we can with very high probability say that
this is coming from an original actual source. So that's something actually we also want to, um,
emphasize more, uh, that we in fact can provide to, um, the interchange ecosystem. But of course that's
like a very, um, technical and like, uh, long-term goal, but in the short term, obviously we're bringing
vehicles to the ecosystem. So it's a whole new paradigm, whole new, um, market that all these blockchain
applications, user end user applications and app chains themselves can come in and start serving,
um, the vehicles themselves that definitely need all of their services. And ultimately we would,
of course, we would be more of a user of all the services rather than provider in the shorter term.
For example, there are a lot of synergies. Of course we were, we've already, uh, partnered up with
Jekyll. Obviously we've been, uh, working with them, uh, for a long time and we'll actually be using
Jekyll for our decentralized, uh, storage, which will be embedded into the protocol itself. Uh, but
alongside that we have many other, um, ideas such as, for example, using the secret network when a privacy
preserving application is needed or using some, uh, microfinancing, uh, app chain to actually,
um, provide some loans or lease for vehicles and vehicle related stuff. And even in the future rent
out the freely available compute power from the devices themselves to, I don't know, maybe Akash
networks. So there, the list goes on and on. And, um, but yeah, ultimately our goal is to bring the whole
ecosystem, the cars, to the interchain ecosystem so that the ecosystem can find ways to serve them.
I think this opened also a very interesting perspective because, uh, because Sorchen is
focusing right now on the product, of course, because, uh, the primary user is, uh, outside the
blockchain ecosystem at the moment. But, uh, what you're saying is, is also that, uh, right now,
basically, Sorchen is looking to basically leverage the product of other blockchain,
which for me, just to listen to something like that, it's, uh, it's something super cool because,
this is, of course, powered mostly also by ABC, Cosmos. You mentioned it also,
how that, uh, you're probably able to use, uh, uh, secret network, uh, decentralized, uh, compounding.
So it's, uh, it's very interesting to see how there is actually this, uh, this beginning of mesh,
which is, I'm not meaning mesh security this time, but actually meaning mesh of, uh, of chains
using each other, which is, uh, I think it's super cool. And it's actually happening only in this
ecosystem because, uh, only here you can actually enjoy this seamless interoperability.
So super cool to see this is happening, uh, right now, basically in the very early stage,
and it will be super interesting to see also it, it will develop in the future.
Uh, last question for Alexander, how do you envision, uh, Sentinel within the inter-chain ecosystem?
Of course, Sentinel, uh, was already super early and, uh, early adopter of ABC,
but, uh, feel free to share if the vision has, uh, changed or how it was, uh, how it was, uh,
sorry, how it is evolving.
Yeah, sure. Uh, so, yeah, uh, as I said, uh, the main, uh, the main idea with, uh,
interoperability is, uh, support for IBC payments, which is already there and, uh, we're using it.
So, uh, to allow, um, multiple, multiple chain token holders to, uh, use, uh, Sentinel DBPN service
using their native token without, uh, converting it or, uh, buying, selling, uh, something on the
exchange. Uh, but as, uh, as we're moving, uh, towards, uh, assisting AI developers as well,
uh, we see that there is, uh, there is a lot of growth, uh, been, uh, since, uh, since the beginning
of this year in terms of AI and, uh, we believe that, uh, there is, uh, big demand for AI
decentralization as well. So once we will see more and more chains appear, uh, which mission will be
building a decentralized AI, uh, we will be here to help, uh, we will be ready to provide with the
all necessary tools for data scraping. We will be ready to integrate, uh, using, uh, Cosmos SDK and
existing Cosmos ecosystem. And, uh, basically, uh, by combining multiple chains together, including
Sentinel and, uh, these chains that we will see in future for, for AI, uh, community can achieve
something, uh, which will be much, much more impressive than, uh, something that we currently
see from open AI, for example, because decentralization, uh, can do what no single other
company can do by itself. So, um, that's, uh, that's what we are seeing in terms of, uh, future
perspectives here. Uh, and, uh, yeah, uh, something like that.
Yeah, you, you made it very short, but it was, uh, definitely interesting to hear because, uh,
there is a, a very interesting feature that is happening right now in the inter-chain ecosystem
that a few are notizing it. So I hope that, uh, in the future, we will see more of this kind of
adoption in terms of the inter-chain collaboration, which is definitely, definitely super cool. Uh,
if anyone has, uh, any last thought or want to do a specific call to action, feel free to do it now.
Yes, definitely. Uh, so join, uh, Sentinel communities in Telegram and, uh, Twitter,
follow me and Sentinel, uh, Sentinel on, uh, on X, Twitter, however we call it,
and, and Telegram, uh, to stay tuned and, um, yeah, try, try Sentinel VPN if you haven't,
uh, tried it already. And, uh, yeah, I'll be, uh, I w I was happy to join you guys, uh, all today
and, uh, wish you all the best.
Same here. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me as always Rob. Um, and, uh, for us so much stuff,
Twitter, Telegram, Discord, if you want to have any questions or need support, feel free to reach
out and, uh, thanks again. Yeah, exactly the same for us. Uh, I mean, uh, Twitter, Discord,
Telegram, uh, follow us. And also we're going, uh, on the mainnet soon. Uh, we've still got, uh, the
airdrop live. Uh, you can get the sword chain mini modules, try it out on your cars. Um, and yeah,
we would welcome everyone who would like to participate in the incentivized testnet still.
So thanks for having us.
Thank you, Aaron, for joining today. It has been super great to know more, more better this narrative
because, uh, as I said in the beginning, behind this narrative is actually a real mission that, uh,
impacts the real world. And all these projects are doing their part to actually bringing, uh,
the, not only the international ecosystem, but, uh, the blockchain technology with, uh,
outside and, uh, impacting a user that probably will never be aware that they are using blockchain.
I hope so in the future, because, uh, I know there is this chain abstraction narrative,
but it's always good to know what is behind, uh, the product you are using.
On, uh, on another note, I appreciate everyone sharing your own story and, uh,
how you guys are building your product and why you're building your product. I think it has been
super insightful, especially if today there is, uh, a builder listening that, uh, want to start to
build its own dipping product in the international ecosystem. These stories will be definitely helpful.
So thanks again, everyone for joining and we'll see you in the next episode.
