Hello everybody, how is everyone doing today?
Good morning, good evening.
Good afternoon for those of us in Europe.
We are excited on behalf of Fluence to kick off one of our possibly most interesting spaces,
a dip in a reality check.
Today we have a very wide selection of speakers and this is the first space we're doing,
where we will have like two cohorts.
First 45 minutes we will spend with the awesome group of people who are on stage with us now,
and then new speakers will join.
So this is going to be super interesting.
And I will just pass the mic straight to Tom, one of co-founders on Fluence to kick things off.
And then let's do a round of intros.
Thanks everybody for joining.
Super excited about Deepin in general.
I think hopefully we're going to agree that maybe it's not all hype here.
And I'm excited to hear all the different speakers' perspectives
and maybe some real specifics here.
So with that, I guess you should figure out who wants to talk and introduce themselves first.
So with that, anybody want to introduce themselves first?
Sure, I don't mind going.
This is Daniel Keller with Roto and Flux.
Sita, do you want to open it up?
Happy to, but I think we're getting rugged again here on Twitter because
the Flux speaker just jumped in first.
So just as I cut off people last time when I was getting rugged from Twitter,
I'll hand over to Flux speaker and I'm happy to go after him.
Yeah, Flux is next to me and on my phone.
So there's a logic to that as well.
Can you guys hear me okay?
Okay, I am Daniel Keller.
I am the co-founder of Flux.
Super excited to speak on this space today because unfortunately in the crypto world,
we have a habit of creating these acronyms that mean absolutely nothing
in the grand scheme of things.
So whether it's FinTech, Web3, DeFi, you name it, NFTs, we kind of get those things confused.
Deepin is the very first one that we don't get confused because it actually is a real thing.
Flux runs 13,000 nodes all over the world.
We have front ends, back ends, game servers,
all kind of infrastructure that runs decentralized and we now have
a product that allows people to deploy graphics cards for rendering or AI or Edge Compute as well.
So really what it comes down to is I think we finally got to a point in the blockchain
maturation process where we can actually take a title, Deepin, and we could actually build
So it's not pie in the sky.
It is decentralized private infrastructure and guess what?
I love that amazing introduction.
I hope I'm not ragging anyone because I traditionally
am the one who speaks over people on Twitter spaces unwillingly.
Say that what we are, we're a modular data layer and we're setting a standard for modular
data transport and allowing any blockchain across the whole space to query for any data
So we'll be sitting behind the Deepins taking data from any physical infrastructure point
and putting it onto any chain and allowing them to query that from wherever they are.
So super excited for this space today.
Unfortunately, there's a lot going on.
Let's say that we're announcing early next week.
So I'm going to have to jump off early, but I'm going to interact here as long as I can
and listen to as many good speakers as we can.
I'm going to be the devil's advocate.
And I want to be convinced that Deepin is worth the hype.
So for me, I think it's fantastic.
That's another story I get to write about.
But I'm in the category of, all right, in terms of adoption, you're going to have to
sell it to me because I'm not 100% sold on the idea for an adoption across the wide world yet.
But happy to hear your thoughts.
I'll be happy to introduce myself if it's my turn.
And I'm the CEO of a project called DeFi Mint.
And it's a real world asset tokenization ecosystem.
We do real world asset tokenization.
And we are very focused on the Deepin narrative and how we can help
Deepin founders with fundraising and so on.
And I'm looking very much forward to speaking about this today.
I'm the community BD guy over here for print analytics.
We actually have IoTeX as one of the data chains that we have indexed at footprint,
I attended a bunch of real world events by IoTeX as well.
So they got me super into it.
So I can't wait to talk about this a little bit more.
If you guys need data, we got a ton of it.
We got some APIs, some infrastructure.
Check us out at footprint.network.
And thanks for bringing me up here.
I'm excited to talk more.
My name's Nick Webb here from Flick Play.
We're building the future of play via the digital toy vertical.
So super excited to learn from a lot of great minds today.
We're just building out some different ways that you can own one toy
and play with it across multiple experiences.
Actually have ownership of it as well as interoperability.
Across different experiences in the real world,
in the world online via augmented reality, the sandbox game
with some cool licensors.
We're about to launch Bratz on March 4th.
So definitely some exciting stuff in the works here
and going to learn how Deepin might affect the future of play.
Hey, I'll go ahead and hop in.
I'm having if anyone else is going, let me know
because I think I'm hearing like every other person.
But Mikel, co-founder of Sedona,
platform as a service for Web3 games
and also the ecosystem director for the crypto recruiters.
I'm super happy to be here.
I am like a recent Deepin user, actually.
I have the demo crypto miner running in my car.
I've been earning $10 a week just driving around on crypto.
So this isn't like a promotion for them.
I mean, obviously, it's pretty cool and I'm liking it.
But I'm curious to learn like more use cases with Deepin.
I think it's pretty exciting and pretty practical.
I think I'm on in the four camp, but I could be convinced otherwise.
We built the world's first AI sports platform,
which is a platform focusing on the intersection of generative AI technology and blockchain.
We started building it in spring of 2019 and have now put out two titles.
One title is Secret Fight Club,
which is basically a bunch of teams.
The DAOs configure AI agents that are athletes,
and those athletes compete in on-chain tournaments for cash and prizes.
And we very recently launched our second title, which is called Burn It DAO.
It's an entirely on-chain game show.
We're very excited about that.
Yeah, I mean, I think like high level,
I think the idea of decentralized infrastructure is interesting.
I think it does have some use cases.
I think that like a lot of things,
there does seem to be a bit of overhype on some areas.
I'm not totally convinced about the GPU side, for example, and some other things.
But I think it's an interesting technology,
and I like the idea that we're applying more and more
principles of decentralization in terms of physical deployment infrastructure.
I also really am a big fan of this idea.
This isn't exactly like a blockchain related thing,
but I like the idea of kind of future deployments being more decentralized
so that you're shifting the cost from the software provider
to more of the customers on a transactional basis, on a metered basis.
I actually think that is super interesting.
Awesome. I believe that was everybody.
Everyone on stage has introduced themselves, right?
Tom, then we can get straight into the questions.
Just in case we have the sound glitching again,
I'm going to go ahead and throw in a point for discussion over here.
And we kind of already got into it,
but the question of whether the hype is justified around dip in and everything,
dip in, so to say, because we're just like beginning of this last year,
at the same time, people were not talking about dip in and now it's everywhere.
And it seems to be one of the hottest topic as we're going into in the den,
where we will hopefully see some of you.
Is it just people trying to capitalize on the next big thing?
Flux, do you want to go first on this question?
Well, let me start for a second.
I'm actually on my coverage now, guys.
So I'm going to be in and out from time to time.
So on that, one comment, Mark Andreessen said a long time ago
that software would eat the world.
And he meant sort of traditional software companies.
My sort of theory is that software will eat the world,
but not know what you thought.
It'll be decentralized protocols of which dip in is a real kind of core piece of that.
And so when you have companies that can work like a helium with no capital expenditures
and create global networks, I posit the question,
how can anyone compete with that?
How can traditional companies compete with dip in networks that have no capex
and have no and almost no overhead?
And so that's where my operating thesis is that you've got a far,
the most superior, the most highest efficient software model
possible to dip in network.
Anyone want to take a counter side of that?
I wouldn't necessarily take a counter side to that.
That means it's not decentralized now at all.
But Netflix doesn't really use its infrastructure could be decentralized.
I suppose you get a far bigger video library.
If you understand what Netflix is doing and their availability and their throughput and so forth,
it's not a very good use case for it.
I'm not trying to be argumentative.
But if you want a counterpoint, I think the thing is there's some services
that are going to work well.
And there's some services that are just frankly not going to work well.
Like no one tool is perfect for everything.
Like you don't want just a hammer.
You want screwdrivers and hammers and saws and so forth.
I think that I totally agree with that.
I want to expand on that because I have a couple points to both of those.
So first and foremost, I wanted to bring out the response to Mark Andreessen.
Essentially, he made that statement with the intentions of VCs and central parties
to control that software that eats the world.
And I do think we have a disruptor coming in, and that is deep in.
By definition, I think people need to understand because I've heard AI,
Web 3, all these different buzzwords that are put into these things.
It really comes down to infrastructure.
So if you're building a product or you're building a project that's using AWS or Google,
Microsoft Azure, you're completely centralized.
You're not even web 2.5, essentially.
So deploying on a decentralized network where the individuals,
we call them decentralized systems administrators,
is absolutely paramount to building out a decentralized platform.
I think Netflix is an absolutely awesome scenario.
If you look at something on Flux, that could run on Flux today.
And that is not an on-chain piece, but a combination of on-chain and layer 2 scaling.
So I think people get confused and think, you know,
well, you know, it's all going to be on-chain, but not necessarily.
Flux runs, you know, it's a proof-of-work project.
It's not a proof-of-stake VC-funded shitcoin, so to speak.
And it uses both pieces, and it works very well.
If we're developing these products, we need to start really,
truly understanding what D-PIN is.
And we can't get watered down again with everybody using everything
to lump in buzzwords around your project just to get traction.
So we need to understand D-PIN is a tool.
It is not something that we're going to run out and promote our projects around or build around.
So we have to build on those platforms.
So whether you're using Flux or Akash or any of these other platforms,
absolutely 110% needs to be decentralized.
You are only as decentralized as your most centralized component.
And if your infrastructure is running on AWS or Microsoft Azure, it is 100% centralized.
Sorry, that's just the way that it is.
I think that's a weird take.
And the reason why I think it's a weird take is like, well, first of all, I mean,
words like NFT aren't buzzwords.
They're just acronyms, right?
Like it's just describing a technology like any other app.
Unfortunately, people use those buzzwords and they include them in their project
just to essentially accent the project.
Yeah, but you could say...
I understand you want to steamroll the conversation,
but I'm just saying that like you could say the same thing about D-PIN, right?
But the point about Netflix is that it's not optimized for decentralized deployment.
Like we've already done that.
It was called BitTorrent.
It was called BitTorrent and it fucking stuck.
Yeah, BitTorrent runs on completely centralized infrastructure too, by the way.
By the way, nobody wants to steamroll the conversation,
but I find it very challenging for people to continue to come on these spaces
and continue to pump their projects because it's an acronym.
It's not what you're doing.
Are you talking to myself?
Are you talking to yourself?
I'm talking to this group in this space.
You can be offended if you want, but quite frankly, I could give a shit.
It's just that you keep talking over me,
but it's like I'm saying that D-PIN, like decentralized infrastructure,
it's good for some things.
It's not good for other things, right?
The point of this, the topic of the space was, is it all hype?
And I think the answer is partially.
Partially, it is all hype.
I think saying something like, everything can benefit from D-PIN,
sounds a lot to me like someone saying,
everything can benefit from blockchain in 2016.
Because it actually exists today.
So it would be bullshit if you didn't have something to back it up.
And I'm not talking about flux.
I'm talking about all the different projects that are deploying on D-PIN.
So the more that we fluff it by applying these ambiguous terms to it,
it just creates and waters down what it's really supposed to be.
Why don't we speak a little bit about the use cases for the audience
so they really can understand what kind of use cases D-PIN can be used for.
Maybe that could be a way forward.
Yeah, that sounds super productive.
Well, I mean, the primary use case, I guess,
kind of the biggest company that started this whole is Filecoin,
which is, I think, you know, raised a couple hundred million dollars
and now has a massive amount of storage availability.
And how much of that is useful versus non-useful storage is a little bit of a debate.
But that is hard to disagree that that is not a successful, effective D-PIN project.
And you can look at R-Weave as another.
And then obviously another one would be Helium,
which has probably a million hotspots around the world right now providing Wi-Fi connectivity.
We got another one, Hive Mapper, where people are running around in their cars
mapping roads and taking pictures.
They've done, you know, hundreds of thousands of miles of that as well.
So there's a couple of big use cases I'm familiar with.
So yeah, I would add in there too, just real quickly.
I can only speak to what I'm doing with Flux,
but there are other products out there that do the same thing.
So currently, game servers.
So PowerWorld runs currently on Flux.
We have, you know, personal servers you can deploy.
We recently released WordPress.
So you can deploy WordPress.
Well, 50% of the internet runs on WordPress.
So you can deploy WordPresses all in a decentralized manner.
You can use AI and rendering and our GPU offering and so on and so forth.
So I think you'd be hard pressed.
And the folks that are maybe they're on the fence about it.
I think the use cases are very transparent.
And I think that if you really take the time and go out
and look at what D-Pen truly is on that foundational ground level,
you're going to understand immediately.
This is way bigger than anything that we're building.
This is what powers the next version of the internet.
And I do get the skeptics 100% because, you know, we have not.
The blockchain community has not done a good job
at cascading the mission of blockchain.
It's been a lot of buzzwords and a lot of bullshit.
So for the very first time, I think we have a product that's legitimate
and we can build on it and showcase not only one project, but many projects.
So not competition, but opportunity.
So the big corpse definitely D-Pen is a bomb under them.
And it's going to totally disrupt all infrastructure and all, you know,
the sharing economy will take over and really put the large corporation on the pressure.
And I think the whole transformation,
the digital transformation and the whole Web 3 to Web 3 transformation
is also helping drive this forward.
And I think it's incredible to see that the big corpse are not more aware
about what's going on in our environments here in the Web 3 space,
because they will wake up one day and say,
what happened here with our central servers
and what happened to our social media networks and everything else?
That's my opinion anyways.
Yeah, and I wanted to hop in with a couple more use cases that I think are really cool.
I'm in Tom Hit with Helium, which I think is number one.
Helium, what Helium is doing is super sick with the hotspots.
Miguel also is using demo, which is number two for me,
which is super cool, has really a bunch of really cool features,
which I'm sure Miguel can expand on more.
And I wanted to talk, I saw some other cool products like, for example,
how GPS can be revolution or changed up through proof of location
and how it's a lot more efficient for logistics systems, which is quite cool.
I also think eventually we're going to see a lot more smart devices, right?
There's going to be more devices connected to blockchain
than there is ever going to be humans on the Earth, right?
So I think what's really cool about connecting smart systems to blockchain
just makes it so much more secure to blockchain networks, right?
Makes your data a lot more secure.
For example, IoTeX won a security award for their security camera
that they released on chain because it was a lot more secure, right?
Traditionally unregistered webcams are actually a lot,
are very easy to compromise and IoTeX solved this issue
with their decentralized security camera.
So those are just a couple more use cases that I think are really sweet
and maybe can provide a bit more perspective of the broad range of a deep...
Man, it was getting spicy there for a second.
Is anyone... I'm not cutting anyone off, am I?
Or am I cutting you off, Raquel?
No, I didn't hear anything of what they said.
I was just jealous because they said it was spicy.
Oh, no, no, I'm just talking about a few moments earlier.
I did see a bunch of red mics, so I thought I'd hop in.
I mean, again, I'm coming from the angle of play
and having fun storytelling, world building, interacting with your assets.
I thought one point that Flux brought up was pretty interesting
where if any aspect of what you're building is centralized,
then you might as well chalk it all up to being centralized.
I think that might be one side, one end of a spectrum of belief there.
I'm curious, though, how someone coming into this space
or someone who's been in this space for a minute or a few years
and wants to create a world, wants to create their own ecosystem,
how they would have to go about it.
If they want to be purely decentralized and build a community of fans
to grow massively, what that would take, right?
I think about a few people that I've met in the space so far
that are building using AI for efficiency,
using the Bitcoin blockchain for...
It's, how do I say, just long-term use cases,
and it's the fact that, you know, Bitcoin is king,
it's going to be there forever, you can see it right there.
And, yeah, just that at any point, oh, you're using open AI?
Well, that's centralized, so if that gets shut down, you're done.
Oh, you're creating a game and the assets are tokens?
Well, if the actual metadata is based on IPFS and IPFS somehow goes down
or there's, you know, people talk about like solar flares
taking out entire networks and stuff, and it's just like,
well, then you're done there.
Or maybe you still have a fun game,
but like all the tokens are just broken for a day
and you don't know what they look like,
but they still work as the tokens themselves
because of what is decentralized, because of what runs on its own.
I'm curious maybe what percentage of a person's world
or entire ecosystem that they create has to be truly decentralized
for it to run, even if the centralized pieces go down or are removed.
And then begs the question of, okay, the more decentralized you make it,
well, how do you get normal Web2 audiences?
How do you get the masses to actually enjoy it?
Which I think is, you know, it might be just the golden question
that we're all trying to figure out there,
but it's definitely an interesting balance that we have to figure out too
because it's like, yes, definitely valuing decentralization.
The more decentralized we get, it seems the harder adoption becomes.
So definitely have to take a look at that value as well.
Yeah, but I think the issue with centralization versus decentralization
is that you can get into these purity tests
and it can become the sort of like Thomas Aquinas,
how many angels fit on the head of the pin arguments, right?
You know, your point about infrastructure in general, I think, is correct.
You know, when you look at the internet itself, right?
I would argue that it is sufficiently decentralized, right?
And I think that that's kind of the key.
Even when you think about, you know, security,
when you think about, you know, cryptography, right?
And you say to yourself, like, in cryptography,
I'm not talking about crypto, but actual cryptography, right?
You have this idea that, and I think it's correct,
that you say, you know, the amount of cryptography
that you need to apply is proportional to the value
of the thing you're trying to protect, right?
So, you know, there's no point in putting extremely,
extremely strong cryptography around, you know,
what you're going to have for lunch tomorrow, right?
Like that's not that important of information to protect, right?
But it might be important to protect, you know,
nuclear launch codes or something.
Ironically, those weren't protected, but that's a difference discussion.
So, you know, I think the issue with centralization versus centralization,
I believe, is actually much more of a spectrum, right?
And this is my point, is that I don't think it makes sense
to engage in sort of purity arguments, right?
Like, I love decentralization.
You know, Bernadette Dow is a fully decentralized on-chain game.
I love the fact that it's the only game that exists right now
that's fully decentralized, right?
And that's a huge technical accomplishment.
However, what I would say is that it doesn't have to always
be that way for everybody.
You know, I don't think it makes sense to say,
well, you know, all games have to be this way
or all products have to be that way.
You know, the question is what is sufficiently decentralized, right?
Like someone made the point earlier about AWS being fully centralized.
Like, yes, it's true that it's controlled by Amazon,
but you can make a counterpoint, right?
AWS is the world's largest network of data centers.
It provides fully, you know, edge-to-edge compute everywhere in the world.
Its availability and uptime is completely unparalleled, right?
So, you know, if you are going to build something
on top of a cloud compute network, you could do a lot worse than that, right?
And to your point about, you know, even when you look at something like Bitcoin,
which is like, you know, kind of held up as the pinnacle
of a functional decentralized network, ultimately speaking, to your point,
it runs on electrical grids.
It runs on, you know, internet infrastructure.
It runs on all sorts of infrastructure that in and of itself, right,
you know, providing the value of interconnectivity
is from a certain perspective, centralized infrastructure.
But what I would say is that it's not a question of, you know,
is it centralized or isn't it centralized?
I believe that it's more a question of is something sufficiently centralized
so as to support its primary use case, right?
You know, my point about Netflix is not just that it doesn't make sense
for decentralized architecture, but more so the people
who are consuming Netflix do not care if it's decentralized.
What they care about is that their movie starts in 200 milliseconds, right?
What they care about is that they have access to all of these films
and if they want to watch a movie, they can hit play
and the movie starts playing, not, you know, oh, I need to find the film
and then I need to find the torrent server that's serving it
and then I need to wait four hours for it to download and blah, blah, blah, right?
Like, that's kind of my point.
So, you know, it's not to say that something is all good or all bad.
I think there are some use cases where decentralized architecture
makes a lot of sense, sorry, makes a lot of sense,
more sense than, you know, a more centralized solution.
However, it is also not the case that all of the information
that's being transmitted on the internet is so valuable
that it needs to be decentralized
or benefits from those models or the security
or even the cost benefits, right?
Like, you can have efficiencies of scale
that make much more sense in decentralized systems
and I'll just land on this.
We see this in software all the time, right?
There's a huge ongoing debate between monoliths and microservices
and that debate is essentially the same debate, right?
Which is you get efficiencies from monolithic software,
you get different efficiencies from, you know, a microservice architecture
whether they're going to be more microservice based
or more monolithic or some hybrid
and typically companies fall into, you know,
the model that best suits them and their use cases
No, I would, I just want to interject
because I've never honestly heard something
that I disagreed with more from beginning to end.
And it shocks me because I've been on a lot of these spaces.
To argue that there is a spectrum for decentralization
is like just build it on web 2 then.
Essentially because that's what you're doing
is you're creating a web 2 product.
That's like people that argue about,
hey, I want to create a blockchain.
Most of the time a database will suit just fine.
So I think that, you know, understanding that,
or even trying to claim that AWS
would have some level of decentralization
is absolutely mind-blowing to me.
It literally runs on 10 data centers in the United States.
And if they choose to deplatform you
or turn your product off, they can do it.
They've done it with Parler.
They've done it with other projects
that they've just decided they don't like their content.
So I do agree with one of the parts of the statement
that I do believe there can be a symbiotic relationship
I don't think web 3 eats the world tomorrow.
And I do believe you can balance between the two.
But if you're creating a project,
what is my maximum percentage to be decentralized,
And that's where we've ran into with a lot of these projects
is they have great ideas.
Legacy technology has already built those ideas out.
Most of the time you don't even need a blockchain.
So this is very specific for us to look at it holistically.
And I would say this, I would err on that
when I do an evaluation on any project,
I look at where they run their nodes,
where they run their data, what chain are they using?
Are they a proof of stake versus proof of work?
These are all components to push toward
So I don't understand the argument for AWS.
I don't understand the argument for the spectrum
because I don't believe there is a spectrum.
I believe that it should be 100% decentralized
Probably not, but if that's not your goal,
you're in the wrong fucking business, period.
Well, let me hop in here because there's a couple
of different things I think that are going on here.
So we're talking about there's an ideals
we're talking about here.
And then there is what customers want.
And then there is what businesses want.
And those are three sort of Venn diagrams
that overlap not all the time consistently.
And listen, customers don't care
about decentralization very much.
That's why they use Google.
That's why they use Amazon.
That's why they use all these products, right?
They don't care about sharing their data, right?
And so there are plenty of use cases
where to your point, it may seem like Netflix
doesn't matter if there's decentralization
because people just want a movie.
But we're not talking, we're fine.
Hold on, no, no, no, because I need to make this statement.
I think fundamentally you're confusing an end user
experience with infrastructure.
A D-pin is infrastructure.
But we don't need to have D-pin for everything.
But let me finish the point.
And so Netflix as an example, whether that
can be decentralized or not, whether it should be,
whether we need it, it actually depends
And so right now the United States and Europe, no one cares.
We just want to watch our movies.
If you happen to live in a regime
where the state is controlling the media
and you can get on Blacklist for watching different things
and movies are banned, well then maybe you actually
want a decentralized Netflix.
Maybe that actually the cost of the decentralization,
the effort to hassle the expense is actually worth it.
The world you live in now, it doesn't matter.
And so I guess the point is, no, no, no, let me finish.
And so the point is that you can have decentralized networks
for which there are actual uses in matter.
People are using them for storage and for telco.
We don't have to have them everywhere.
We don't have to have them everywhere right now.
And that I don't think you disagree with that, right?
I don't disagree with that.
I think that when you're really getting down
to brass tacks of what Dpin is, we
talk about the infrastructure.
So my wife goes to the ATM.
She puts her debit card in.
She gives two flying shits about the infrastructure that
delivered that cash to her hand.
But that to me is a Web 3 component
where you're engaging the user interfaces off a product that's
already been developed decentralized.
So if projects are out there building it,
take Netflix out of the equation, right?
You start to include streaming services,
let's say a rumble, who all of a sudden
had to pull their data out of France.
That doesn't happen on Flux.
It's impossible to do that.
Flux, listen, Flux, we also got to get a couple more people
speaking here because we're going to run out of time.
And so I know you've had a lot of opinions.
You also had some really interesting insights.
But I also want to open it up to everybody else who
are our speakers here who want to contribute or weigh
in on this kind of heated discussion here.
Anyone have any other views?
Footprint, any views you want to venture into this space?
I saw Kevin unmute earlier, also.
Kevin, the floor is yours.
No, I mean, I think we completely forget also
the incentive talk and how the community is rewarded
by using these new deep-end concepts.
And why don't we talk a little bit about the reward systems
and what benefits the user have in applying
I mean, I think the, I'm sorry, go ahead, Footprint.
Yeah, I was going to say like using,
I guess helium is a good example, right?
Because I think what helium, the infrastructure,
like the actual network box, it costs a couple hundred.
But on average, I think if you break down
how many days it costs to pay off
until you're in the green, it's not very long at all.
It's only like, I think, 82 days or something like,
or maybe even less, so that's pretty sweet.
So at the end of the day, right, you own this system, right?
You're helping everybody out because, you know,
you're living in a high traffic area
where it's hard to connect to Wi-Fi.
So you're making like five bucks a week.
You're literally just doing nothing.
So like the benefits are really easy to collect
and you don't really have to be super web3 native.
You just need to have your wallet
and just have some, you get paid.
People will set it up for you.
So that's kind of the benefit is a lot of the rewards
from Deepin are actually pretty easy
to collect, pretty seamless in the most part.
Like Mikel was telling about how she drives every week,
makes $10 a week for driving and just collects the rewards.
That's easy and people like that for everyday activities
that we can monetize for just doing nothing
or provide a service that we don't even need to monitor.
You know, it's just easy.
Yeah, listen, I think that is the real promise of Deepin
which is crowdsourced infrastructure, right?
That's what it is where people are basically, you know,
monetizing what they either the resources they already have
or putting a small amount of money to work on something
that is valuable because connected to a large network.
And my point earlier was how can centralized companies
Because Helium, to your point, pays zero.
The whole world's buying a million people at bottom.
So it seems like telecosers have a real trouble competing
with a business that spends nothing on CapEx
and has millions of people providing its infrastructure.
Yeah, and I think another really interesting point
is how it can just shake up systems like logistics
like I brought up earlier.
Proof of location is a hell of a lot more accurate than GPS.
And a lot of logistics like shippers and receivers,
I think one of the biggest issues that they run into
is getting paid appropriately and getting paid on time.
And that's due to delays in the shipping and receiving
And people actually game their GPS
which is a problem in logistics as well to get paid more.
So proof of location actually solves this
while which I wish I could dive into a little bit more.
I was more educated on it,
but I think this is super cool concept of how D-PEN
can disrupt and benefit existing infrastructures
Well, listen guys, we're reaching near the end of this space.
Any closing thoughts for everyone
before we migrate to the next round of speakers?
We have obviously everyone's welcome to stay on.
But any closing thoughts people like to share?
I just wanted to say that I do value
tomorrow's lunch plans, very securely evil plan.
So I will be having a multi combination lock protecting it.
No, it's been cool to learn from everyone.
It seems like D-PEN has been the talk of the town this week.
So I really appreciate we could have
some unfiltered conversation.
And I love some good back and forth
because if we all sit here smiling,
saying we agree with each other
then where are we actually gonna get with this conversation?
So I definitely learned a lot.
I appreciate everyone taking the time.
And yeah, thanks so much.
Yeah, I wanna thank everyone for a great discussion.
I wanna second everything that Flick said.
I mean, I think it's really important
to have productive discourse.
I think it's really important to exchange different ideas.
I think it's really important
that everything just isn't a giant circle jerk, right?
Like, I mean, I've been in crypto for a long time.
I know many people on the stage
have been in crypto for a long time.
Just like many other people wanna see it succeed, right?
And I feel like part of the way
that we're gonna do that is by questioning
and getting better and pushing forward, right?
Not just by congratulating ourselves
on our own thoughts, I guess.
And so, from my perspective, I think Tom's point,
and I'm sad we're running out of time
because I think it's such a good question, right?
Which is like, how does this reward system
And I do think that that is gonna be kind of a challenge,
Which in a certain way was like,
how do we reward users for interacting with the network?
The problem ended up being that the amount of the reward
is so low that it doesn't really work
in most industrialized economies, right?
And so you end up primarily focusing in like areas
like let's say the Philippines or whatever,
and then you have an entirely set of,
that basically introduces different incentive models, right?
And then those models don't necessarily translate
to like G7 countries and so forth.
So it can, I think, be challenging
even from a rewards perspective
in terms of making it sustainable at a level
that will cause US consumers or UK or European
or Asian consumers to care, right?
Like that's the other problem that you end up having
is that like, how do you get people to care
if the amount of the reward is nominal, right?
Like, so you'll get a certain amount of people
who might say, hey, you know what?
I get $10 a day for doing whatever,
but you're gonna get a lot of other people who are like,
I don't give a shit about $10.
Like $10 isn't even worth my time, right?
Because my eggs cost $10 and I need to get to work
where I'm making more money, right?
And so I think, again, it's not a,
I don't think it's like a up or down vote,
because then like, yes, it will work, no, it won't work.
But I do think that there are challenges,
especially in terms of how do you really incentivize
broad adoption on a consumer level
to actually achieve the decentralization you need.
And even playing one comment to that though,
which I think it has to be incorporated
is a $10 today isn't dollars, it's usually coins.
And those coins appreciate as the network grows
And so clearly we've seen these huge cycles in crypto
spike dramatically than the crash back down, right?
But if you think over a longer period
that this protocol is gonna work,
you're okay with 10 bucks because you see
that doubling, tripling, quadrupling,
this is coupling over some period of time.
And the earlier you are in the network,
the more value you're gonna get from it.
I compare it to being on Amazon,
where if you're a seller on Amazon,
all you get the benefit of being early
is more competition and higher prices, right?
Because if the thing works,
you've got some real value there.
And that's what I think people should be playing for.
I think, Tom, that that's right.
But I do think it's important to remember
that in sort of less developed economies, right?
They're not going to be holding,
like they're not holders, right?
Yeah, and so that kind of sell pressure
does end up being a problem.
But I mean, I agree with your high level point.
I just wanna thank the panel.
Very educated, Evil, I appreciate you.
And the banter back and forth and so on and so forth.
So I think that if we can take either side of the stance
but that's how I think we get successful in the end
is if we flush these things out,
create these commonalities that we all understand,
and then we work forward.
So I appreciated the banter and I appreciated the space.
And Footprint, you wanna close some comments?
Yeah, I just wanted to say,
I don't really think the monetization aspect behind it
Cause you used gaming as an example,
but gaming, you really have to interact
to get these rewards, right?
With the D-Pen, most of the time, it's very passive, right?
You're just doing stuff you're already doing
and earning it on the side, right?
When we look at gaming, for example,
we'll see a lot of the times games with the highest volume
and highest daily active users
are a lot of these move to earn apps, right?
The problem with that is it being sustainable, right?
But I think it's a little bit easier being sustainable
with a D-Pen protocol compared to a move to earn.
Now, obviously, that's really neither here or there.
It depends, that's very protocol specific.
But in general, I think it's just easier to get the rewards
and you do have to do just less interaction to get them.
So I don't really know if the,
how much you're rewarded is much of an issue.
Yeah, I mean, I think with gaming,
I mean, I think it really kind of depends, right?
I mean, I think it really kind of depends, right?
So I'd say that the move to earn stuff
definitely had its moment.
It's not really, I think, where most of the liquidity was,
but the majority of liquidity in gaming
around kind of just the broader play to earn segment
was really, I mean, like what you mostly saw was farming
and you saw that through guilds.
So I would say it actually is sort of a counterpoint
to what you're saying, right?
Where like, you have these villages, frankly,
that would get something like 500 mobile phones, right?
And then set them all up side by side
and quote unquote play the game
or whatever they were doing to basically farm yield.
But that was a fully extractive activity.
And I guess that's kind of my point is that like,
you kind of have to be careful because depending on,
depending on your incentive models and architecture,
if it's not attractive to first world consumers,
then you're not going to incentivize
exactly the kind of behaviors that Tom was discussing,
which is what you want, right?
What you're going to end up getting is people
like they're basically strip mining your protocol, right?
And maybe a way to think about it, right?
And that kind of strip mining is not,
it's not only not sustainable itself,
but it undermines the stability of the protocol
And that's certainly a risk we've seen it play out.
Any other closing comments?
Great, well, listen, thanks everyone for joining.
We're going to stay on this space.
Another set of panelists coming up right now
and a little plug December, on February 27th,
we're doing Deepin day at Eat Denver.
So if you're there, stop by.
And if not, join the stream.
We've got a lot of great speakers
this will be the place to be on the 27th of February.
So I hope everyone can join us there.
Do we have other co-hosts coming on now?
Great, I think a couple of other people are in the process
This is a good time to introduce Boneyard,
who is a core member of the chief science,
of the Fluency Team, a chief scientist.
So Boneyard, Bernard, you want to introduce yourself here?
And now you've been up quietly,
you know, watching everybody for a while.
You want to give a little introduction?
Oh yeah, I miss that on the spicy conversation.
I'm very sorry, I was too slow on the button.
Hi, I'm Bernard, I'm a Fluency scientist, been in...
I think I can hear him, I'm not sure, maybe tell him.
Oh, whoops, maybe just me, sorry.
Okay, so, with Fluency, it's been in a free space for a while,
but my background is actually a hardcore enterprise,
distributed systems, message queues, all that good stuff.
And yeah, so obviously, very, very interested,
particularly in Deepin, to see this going forward.
And got a couple, I don't know,
let's see how this panel goes.
I have a few follow-up questions from the last panel
around Netflix, but I'll leave it for the time being.
So good to be here, great, everybody's here.
We should definitely do a space on Netflix.
I would love to do that space with you.
I think that's a great discussion.
Hey, Ralk, yes, we can hear you.
All right, I think with the new speakers,
Would you like to say a couple of words to introduce yourselves?
Yesha, I don't know who has to go first,
but you mentioned my name, right?
Julius from Neurochain AI, CEO and attack guy
behind AI and decentralized artificial intelligence network.
Yeah, and together with my team,
we're building a decentralized network to process
and produce artificial intelligence messages.
I hope I was audible. Was it not?
Yeah, you were, maybe to sound too cool.
Everyone went silent there. I didn't know what to do next.
Yeah, should I say anything else?
No, that's great. Ralk, are you up?
No, I think Ralk is just trying to get on stage.
Hopefully now he can hear us or we can hear him.
While he is getting up, Julius,
I was actually very interested in your profile on Twitter
because you're talking about the ultimate
of three plus AI infrastructure.
And it's super interesting because we just had another space last week
or probably two weeks ago precisely on this topic.
So it's great to have you join this conversation
because it's also something that Fluence is very interested in,
like the intersection how like these two big forces can work together.
So, yeah, this is going to be fun.
Yeah, happy to partake. Thank you for having me.
Ralk, do you want to try now?
Yeah, I think we can just keep going then, hopefully.
Well, I guess, Gury, well, just a quick question for Julius.
How do you think your love to learn more about what you're doing?
Because I sort of think, I'm curious your definition of deep in
and where physical infrastructure meets software
and how that ties into what you're building.
Because I think from there, we can go to a whole bunch of questions
about what deep in is and then kind of how successful it is
and whether the hype around it is justified or not.
OK, but the centralised infrastructure is something that,
I don't know, it was a driving or a driver for me to create something,
something new my whole life, like even my Twitter handle, right?
I have been doing like technology roles,
getting certified in UNIX engineering, stuff like that.
And it kind of always was boggling my mind, right?
It's how these decentralised infrastructures,
let's say like the blockchains, right?
On a certain level, it's a decentralised infrastructure
used for a very certain or very fixed element, right?
It's to provide liquidity, to provide transactability between different uses.
But overall, it has a way bigger potential.
And the way bigger potential from the business side
for small to medium businesses, for consumers as well.
And it really allows people with limited resources
and limited availability to, let's say, corporate infrastructure,
such as AWS, you know, different corporate clouds,
to actually try out and to build out something amazing
without having to, you know, to overstep the boundaries of the budget
and to actually tap into the open source communities
that are providing these types of solutions.
So for me, decentralised physical networks, right?
There's something that has an untapped potential
in how the compute power and how the computations
can be presented to wider audiences in terms of development,
in terms of creating added value and maintaining sustainability
from the hardware perspective.
So yes, that's my take on it.
In a sense, I hope that works.
And how we utilise it is, you know, at its core.
We basically use and we do not create like the standard,
what I have seen like in the recent past,
a solution which emulates AWS type of a cloud solution
for decentralised infrastructure.
We're actually building a network.
And the network in itself is providing a bigger scalability options
because then the node is not bound to a particular task,
whereas the network is bound to a task.
So that is how we utilise this decentralised infrastructure.
We're building actually the layer,
which bridges the hardware and the software altogether.
And that's what network is.
Our approach is actually very similar to how blockchains operate,
Building the software on top of the hardware is...
Definitely what looks like we lost a rock.
Michaela, do you want a rock there?
Am I the only one who can't hear him?
All right, well, I guess we're having some audio issues here.
Still, Elon's got to invest more in this app.
I think we can all agree on that.
But he's heavily investing in the AI, right?
So you have to split the budget.
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
Well, listen, I guess we don't have...
Rock is having some issues here.
Anything you want to add, Bernardo?
I missed your opening comments due to my technical issues,
so I don't even know what you were saying,
but trying to think of where we should go here
given what we covered in the first half of this.
We want to talk about specific infrastructure
that's most likely to be decentralised.
I mean, we've talked about Netflix being, you know,
maybe more complicated to decentralise
and maybe less useful, at least in the near term.
Anything else we see as super likely
to be decentralised soon and beneficial, too?
Well, I got a question sort of based
on that Netflix discussion before.
And the discussion around D-Pen and Netflix
was always from the user perspective.
But why couldn't Netflix start deciding to build on D-Pen,
on decentralised infrastructure itself?
I mean, there's just as much taken hostage
by some of the big oligopolists
than the end user are being held in prison
by some of the centralised providers.
So why wouldn't enterprises start looking at D-Pen
as a way to improve efficiencies,
or some of them, at least,
and, you know, increase their degrees of freedom?
Yeah, I mean, decentralisation doesn't come for free.
So there's probably, I mean, there are trade-offs,
but even just, I mean, as a mix,
as a business continuity risk management tool,
it seems to me that D-Pen should have great potential
for enterprise adoption, particularly if you look
at enterprises that are using hybrid solutions
where they're part in-house, part cloud.
So I just wanted to throw that out there as a question.
If I can take this one, it's actually a very good question.
And we kind of face that in multiple solutions.
Whenever you run something
on a decentralised infrastructure,
you have to be prepared that the information
that is on the decentralised network can be easily accessed,
unless it is properly encrypted, decrypted.
And that's a, probably for Netflix,
that would be the biggest trade-off, right?
Because their value or the business value is the content,
And you cannot make the content publicly available
because users have to pull it out from there.
And encrypting, decrypting the signals
or encrypting, decrypting the storage,
you know, would slow down the shows.
The buffering times would increase.
But on some level, I would definitely agree
that different companies, not necessarily Netflix,
not like, but let's say YouTube
or something of that caliber,
could definitely greatly win from that.
And especially that the whole content,
which is always public, right?
Could be accessed from anywhere, from any location.
You have decentralised storage,
you get in with the centralised compute,
you have the streaming pipelines ready to go.
And you can easily use the geo-locations
to find the best source to download and upload files
and just stream it that way.
Yeah, I mean, you can look at another way,
is another way to push things to the edge,
which has obviously been a buzzword for quite a while.
We also have two speakers who've joined, Dom and King Julius.
Dom, do you want to introduce yourself
and kind of tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I'm the crypto lead at Rowan Energy.
We're utilising Deepin to build the first decentralised
smart grid in the United Kingdom,
which essentially entails linking all DER-distributed
energy resources like renewables, solar wind,
and the likes under blockchain to create a smart grid
where energy flows freely between individuals.
Hello, hello. Sorry for being late.
Yeah, so my name is Julian, I'm the founder of Masma.
We are building a Web3 everything app.
So for those of you who want more from their crypto,
there's going to be Masma.
So, yeah, so I mean, I definitely missed a few things
on the Deepin thing, so I'll definitely love to get a recap
and, you know, add some value.
Great. And, Stefan, I guess you're just welcome.
I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me.
And great to see, you know, this panel.
And, yeah, Tom, good seeing you again.
But, yeah, look, I'm the founder of Truflation.
Truflation is an indexer for RWA
and providing indexed RWA price feeds to the blockchain.
And we use our Truflation Stream Network,
which is a decentralized, definitive reference point
for RWA pricing and the ability to create benchmark indexes
associated with verified data.
We track 18 million items.
We have three price feeds per item
and they are verified using Big Comet's BFT.
And we then distribute those to our customers
to ultra-high availability node operators
as well as century node operators.
Terrific and great to connect.
It's been, gosh, it must have been a year since we spoke.
I think it was just before token 2049
and you were going down there
and getting your panel ready
or your speech, your presentation.
Yeah, the previous one, yeah, exactly.
Well, listen, we've covered some illnesses before.
I guess, Stefan, one thing, question I can have to you,
but someone else could jump onto,
what areas and taking a step back a little higher level
than any of our projects in particular,
what areas do you think are, from your vantage point,
most appropriate for Deepin to work?
Or what industries are most likely to look at it?
What industries in the web two space
are most vulnerable to Deepin protocols?
I mean, I'm biased, but I really think data,
decentralizing data, putting the power of data
into the user's control, again, right?
If you look at all, and ultimately, why?
Because it all feeds AI, right?
And all these AI engines are currently centralized,
leveraging centralized data acquired from users.
I mean, yeah, you know, it just turns out that
chat GPT is getting all of its data
with a $65 million licensing fee from Reddit.
And so Reddit is Sam Altman's,
I think is the third largest shareholder at Reddit, right?
So it's like, I mean, and the Reddit content
is from users, users, and it's being used
to feed a centralized chat GPT,
which is now sort of realistically Microsoft.
And guess where all that LinkedIn data is going?
Guess where all the gaming data is going,
from all of the Minecraft and all of these other GitHub data.
That's all being fed into chat GPT as well
under the Microsoft umbrella.
So I think those are sort of some quick angles,
quick wins that, you know,
I'm hoping to see much more decentralization
Yeah, listen, that definitely is a fascinating point.
I didn't even, I wasn't even aware that the Reddit data
was going and feeding chat GPT is fascinating.
But I guess that Reddit is centralized as is chat GPT, right?
So do you think when I'm trying to understand
the deep in link, is it a user owned
or user kind of managed Reddit alternative
where data stays with the users?
Is that what you're referring to?
Or how does that as deep in fit into that kind of equation?
Yeah, sort of maybe more a bit of a far caster, right?
Where I'm sort of creating content
that content's decentralized.
It's maintained by a decentralized, I mean,
if you believe Filecoin or even, you know, Fluence, right?
I mean, you're building decentralized infrastructure,
decentralized compute, decentralized storage.
How do I have that available?
And how do I store my data
across multiple different participants,
retract that data when I leave?
And ultimately, yes, that to me is the more important thing
or I can approve whether that data gets approved or not.
Listen, I think that you're dead right
and data is super valuable.
I just, my take and curious other people's take
is that if we can do what you're doing,
that is, you've been knowing me more of a fan of it than me.
I look at it differently and say,
what infrastructure do people already own
that has value to other people when it's not being used?
Right, and that's where these,
that's where servers come into play,
even cars come into play.
That's what Uber is in a centralized basis.
But think of all the infrastructure people already own
So remember, I mean, I think Helium is a big example
that a lot of people use as well.
There was that network that got set up,
BT OpenZone, it acquired it in the end.
It was trying to set up wifi.
It was by the Spanish guy that set it up.
Anyway, it was a while back,
but they tried to set up using wifi,
build out decentralized internet access,
which regulatory wise got shut down
because it was using spectrum.
But I think Helium is a prime example of such an asset
where we can all be part of a mobile network
and making access available
and even mobile calls available through this network.
Yeah, strong, strong agree with that for sure.
I mean, how can a telco compete with another telco
that has no capital expenditures
and all the infrastructure is crowdsourced?
Like that's a very tough competition for the existing telco.
I was gonna say, expanding on the point of cars.
What was really important is the kind of data
that you're collecting from that network,
it can be transformed into so much more
than an incentive scheme.
If you had a device in a car tracking its mileage
and rewarding based on that,
you could also estimate the kind of carbon offset
by said car and you could revolutionize
the carbon industry in that way.
One thing is the incentives
and another thing is actually the value
What are you gonna do with that data network?
There's so many different products
that you could build on top of it.
And that's why I think it's a big untapped part of Deepin
where if you had lots of these smart devices
in tens of thousands of places,
just the value of that data network,
the data you're collecting,
you can do so much more with it.
And I think that's where we see projects branch out
Yeah, listen Dom, don't agree.
I mean, as part of the data is concerned,
there's a bit of a trade off, right?
Private and public data, but a very good example,
I also read it in the news quite recently
that charge GPT is going to use the ready data
Also, Elon Musk is using Twitter data to train their AI.
I mean, the community is boundless.
The data or the amount of data that they can produce
and not necessarily have unused,
but they can produce significantly can increase
the evolution of any Deepin network, right?
Because the compound open source community power to create
is always much, much larger in terms of the corporate world.
Because corporations can have like a thousand developers,
but there's probably a million in the world
that would like to chip in.
And they can actually produce a valuable,
much more valuable data without any trash in it.
So you get the better quality data.
That data can be actually used for multiple purposes,
make it available in the decentralized network,
get your wards, get your royalties,
same as with NFTs, for example.
And that way users or people will be more incentivized
not by the coin, but by the ability to produce
and to partake in the evolution
of the whole technological growth.
That's our thought on that.
Yeah, I want to jump on thick with the Tesla thing.
I'm not sure if this falls directly
under the Deepin category,
but if you guys have taken a look at their Tesla,
they're doing something very interesting in terms of,
you know, in a way, theoretically,
he thinks that, you know, a whole town
or a whole suburb runs a power pack network,
whereas the power is actually gonna be distributed
from one home to another.
Say, for example, maybe your home goes out of power
and a lot of other people have, you know,
X amount of power they could share and then distribute
and then kind of, you know, help one home,
maybe that might not have any power.
If anyone has anything to chime in on such things.
Yeah, so I find you bring this up
because this is actually exactly what the company
I work for is building right now.
The future of energy is decentralized
and it's quite clear as we start evolving into grids
that not only has centralized power plants moving,
decentralized DERs, household energy sources
where people can actually become their own power plants.
And it's quite clear that we're trending
towards that industry and that future.
And where Deepin comes in there
and where I think it's gonna be very important
is actually collecting the data
from the individual households so that you can build from it
and so that this kind of P2P trading is possible.
So that's kind of what the company I'm doing.
And yeah, Tesla's building this whole energy company
where they're investing heavily into battery storage
and it's all about meeting grid capacity.
So say energy demand spikes,
then you'd have like a blockchain smart contract
that tells batteries to discharge onto the grid,
any energy that's been stored.
And so I think in the next few years,
we're gonna see Deepin and blockchain
actually heavily penetrate the grid
and kind of evolve it into the next stage,
which is adapting to these decentralized transitions
that we're making in terms of renewables
So it's an underlying industry to work in.
Can I ask a question here?
Because it's a very interesting topic, right?
I have a lot of solar panels on my rooftop.
The way that it's currently set up
is whenever you produce electricity,
you actually are powering up and distributing
that electricity to the nearby households
that are using that electricity right now.
Everything that happens right now
is through a centralized electricity market.
It's actually you're putting your energy onto the network
and that network is then being distributed
by the centralized parties with an overhead.
So what you're actually doing is,
how could this then tap into that
and how would you be able to actually not to sell
but rather sell it to the households nearby?
How does it, or how would it work?
Because it's a very interesting topic that you're doing.
Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely see that,
I mean, just the way we put value on eight pictures,
we're definitely going to start putting value
on the jewel of an energy output
and it's going to be super cool
because I think maybe some people might,
that could be actually very big.
And I'm wondering if you might do that.
I think some, not the interruptions, sorry, Julian,
but I think some of this even more exciting
is actually the increased adoption of EVs
and kind of the expansion we've seen
in terms of public charge points and power walls,
which are essentially battery storages.
So we're talking, imagine a world where one day
I go to work, my nine to five, I'm at work, right?
My solar panels are producing energy,
but I'm not really using that energy.
And it's mainly just getting discharged
And I ended up buying it back in the evening
from a centralized power company for 10 times the cost.
Now imagine a world where I go to work
for my nine to five and I have an automated system in place
with smart contracts where actually my energy is traded
to a public charge point.
So whenever someone charges their car in my local area,
they're actually using my excess energy.
And this is where the evolution
of grid infrastructure comes in.
There's going to be lots of microgrids
and it's all going to be powered by data.
And that data needs to be immutably secure.
Otherwise it's prone to cyber attacks.
And it also needs to be assured.
We need to know that the data is coming from green sources
and all of this comes down to the fact that blockchain
is the most prevalent immutable store of data
And that's why it's going to absolutely transform
the way the grid processes data
and the way transactions occur on the grid.
And yeah, the future is exciting in that regard
and deep in the heart of this whole thing.
Yeah, I absolutely love that.
Thank you for that insight Dom.
That actually just made me think about how it's Tesla as well.
Their long-term vision with their EV cars
that when you're just at work,
your car is just going to start up automatically
and then start taxiing people around.
Definitely there's going to need to be
a decentralized infrastructure and data
and AI to facilitate on that.
So I can definitely see the green.
Could you imagine an AI program
where you tell your Google home to,
I've got so much energy in my battery,
use 10% of it to charge my car,
use 30% of it to run this operation until this time.
I need to get the kids to school by this time.
So I need my car recharged.
So you'll have this whole smart home system utilizing AI
where you can control where your energy flows
from your battery and whether you want to discharge
to the grid or store it in your battery.
It's a future where you take responsibility
You aren't just reliant on centralized infrastructure.
You actually can take responsibility
for how you distribute your energy,
whether you want to store it,
whether you want to sell it,
where you want it to flow in your house.
And AI is going to be the heart of that
and it's all about data as well,
which is where Deepin comes in.
But yeah, it's a very interesting topic.
I would then think that there's going to be a bottleneck
in terms of the input or output
where the human has to intervene for that whole process,
because that sounds complicated as hell.
So are we going to have little Jarvis's
or something like that that kind of just has all this
Yeah, Google just released their open source models, right?
So a very good example, right?
Tell your Google home to use this model to automate tasks.
It's actually a very good point.
Yeah, it's all about creating
these consumer focused applications as well,
because man, when we first started the company,
94% of customers said they would not touch us
if we were rewarding in crypto.
Can you believe that figure is unbelievable?
I would love to be in a world where I can just forget
that that's the way people think
and I can just implement my products
and I can utilize crypto.
But in reality, if we want to scale these networks,
this is what we're facing.
And we have to make sure all our applications
are as consumer friendly as possible.
So I think that's a big focus going forward as well.
So that's consumer friendly.
To a certain extent, that means fiat friendly, right?
I might be servicing customers who are over 80 years old
and they need to be able to understand this space
in a way that they can actually utilize it.
And that's the most difficult part of this whole thing.
It's making sure that each demographic can use your product
and it isn't just a small niche
you're carving out for yourself.
Right, but I mean, so right though,
but you still need to sort of build these front ends,
these on-ramps that are accommodating
of different customer tiers, right?
I mean, the credit card person, the cash person,
whatever, the crypto person.
Yeah, you need to consider that quite a lot, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and that's...
So we go back to the discussion
on sort of the energy distribution and direction.
What would D-PEN have to do?
Like what would D-PEN organizers have to do
to replace orchestrators like Tesla, for example,
with the choreography of, I don't know,
local community energy redistribution network?
So the most important part of competing
with centralized companies,
well, not competing, but improving upon it
is actually finding a way to blitz scale your network
because the only way that we can do energy sharing
with micro grids and stuff like that
is that we process the data through blockchain
and that we have behind the meter that is actually assuring
and that it's coming from green sources.
And we actually use hardware for that.
And the most difficult thing in D-PEN,
if you have hardware, is being able to scale that hardware
and it is such a pain you need,
that is so heavily dependent on data.
so there's a lot of issues of plug and play devices
where if I had a plug and play device
and I just shipped it off to people,
how do I know that they're not plugging that device
into a diesel generator and earning rewards?
How do I know that they aren't just manipulating the system?
How do I know they aren't tampering with the device?
These are all the things that we have to consider
And this is why we've kind of had to adopt a model
where we need to professionally install said devices
in order to scale the network.
but it's something that I think a lot of projects
have to consider because it's easy enough
just selling these pieces of hardware,
but there's a whole new kettle of fish
when it comes to what the consumer's actually gonna do
on their end without being able to monitor what's going on.
It's been a big challenge for us as a business,
and I think it's gonna be a big challenge
for a lot of hardware-focused deepens going forward.
Yeah, especially for AI space,
this is a very difficult task to overcome,
how to avoid this so-called man-in-the-middle attack, right?
That anyone can go in and do a physical device
and you can do whatever, right?
Because you're receiving those requests.
But yeah, combined with probably additional technology
of encryption, decryption, very well-known term,
You know, just basically hashing the data
that's being transmitted and encrypting it
with the validator networks,
the network keys is probably the way to go.
Is that actually to validate the request?
Yeah, encryption's really important
and just implementing a lot of anti-gaming measures as well.
So people can't just manipulate the data
or use it in such a way that it's not true.
Because the problem with building these massive networks
is if there's a single point of failure,
then the whole thing implodes
because the whole system is in doubt.
building the processes around your Deepin
is another thing entirely.
But I mean, looking at a larger scale, right?
If you're building a decentralized network,
so that infrastructure around it,
should it not come from, you know, communities,
from the people who are participating in it?
Developers, per se, right?
Because those guys who are going to use this infrastructure
are the actual, you know, actual developers
or the actual software providers for the larger audiences.
Because when you're building a decentralized network,
you're actually building an infrastructure layer
so that anyone can run anything.
It's just that you're setting up the protocol
of how everyone is going to interact with one another,
because a standard rule set, right?
Yeah, it's a difficult trade off we have to make
between data assurance and decentralization.
I hate to use the word trade off
because it kind of takes away from what we're doing.
But if, as you said, it was like a helium device
and we just let people create the network by themselves,
the network would be manipulated.
So it can be sufficiently decentralized
once enough nodes are a part of the network.
It's a difficult trade off to make in this regard.
I think it's quite a unique scenario
compared to other projects.
Mainly, each deep one is different
and each deep one requires different processes to build.
So, I mean, each one has different things to consider,
but I do understand your point, Julius.
Have we heard about DRENs?
Those D-PINs and DRENs, have we talked about DRENs yet?
I don't think we want to kick it off.
Oh man, I'm quite new to it as well.
But there's a difference between the D-PIN,
which is the infrastructure,
and then there's the DREN,
which is the decentralized resource networks.
So, whereas D-PINs concentrate on building
decentralized networks for physical infrastructure,
we're talking about communications,
we're talking about the networks
for physical infrastructure and then energy,
which is what we're talking about right now, right?
Or transportation, kind of with the Tesla model.
But then there's the sharing.
I think the DRENs are, what is it?
So, DREN is resource management and allocation.
So, they kind of move seamlessly together.
So, these networks are basically,
now you're trying to enable the peer-to-peer side,
the middleman free exchange of the resources,
like storage, process power, and even financial assets.
So, maybe the question here we're trying to figure out,
because you guys are figuring out the systems,
well, how do we actually manage the resource part now,
which is the protocol side?
So, it seems that maybe we need to look more
into the DREN to kind of solve that part.
That's the fungible side.
Hey, Julie, I'm glad you broke it down in more buckets.
I feel like D-PIN for everything just isn't the way.
So, I love that explanation of making another bucket
come to D-PIN instead of just saying
they're all one category.
Yeah, I mean, everything's always gonna be,
but D-PIN is physical, right?
That's the infrastructure there.
So, for example, there's a company called MediKeep.
They are working on a decentralized,
because right now you got hosts like wallets
and sometimes on a cloud, RPC, or we use AWS, right?
So, MediKeep, they built an infrastructure
that runs on an AWS, but it's decentralized.
They themselves, if you were to nuke the company,
none of their wallets would ever be affected, right?
Theoretically, it could run for 120 years
without even touching it.
That's more like the decentralized network side.
And then, yeah, I think with the energy side,
I think it's a little bit complicated
because you are building the infrastructure
and you're managing the resources.
But, you know, I think that's the,
and also as well, D-PIN is hardware dependent.
So, like the location really matters.
And then, whereas like DRAN's location is independent, right?
So, yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely something
that we should definitely look into
and, you know, sort of break these down
And obviously there's going to be new inventions
on how we actually set this whole thing up, right?
Same thing, how there's like tons of,
there's like layer one, two, three.
There's all these different type of protocols.
All these different EIPs.
Definitely it's going to be something similar
Like there's just the top of the surface, for sure.
All right, this was great.
We don't want to go into XJ, all right?
Before we're staying at work, coming on the platform.
This was super awesome and very interesting
bringing the resource management component in at the very end.
If anybody has some concluding comments,
this is time to do it, otherwise great to have you on
and see you soon, hopefully in Denver.