Excited to have you guys here.
Give everyone a few minutes just to dial in, and if you're a speaker, we'll be requesting
you to come on stage. Excited.
Hey, Dennis, can you hear us?
Matthew, you can hear us fine?
I hear you loud and clear as well.
And I think Daniel is the last one coming on stage just now.
We got the whole crew together.
So we're getting started on time.
Hopefully, no hiccups with Twitter space or X space.
We got a great, great program here today from IoTeX.
My name is Larry, head of business development.
And we got Aaron, our head of product,
and Chief Maestro behind DeepinScan here
to talk all things, DeepinMetrics,
share a little bit more about DeepinScan
and just hear what some of the top projects in the sector
So I'm going to hand it over to Aaron to get us started.
Yeah, guys, it's been quite the road getting here,
but super happy to finally launch DeepinScan with you guys.
It's not easy to launch a product like this.
And it's been great working with all you guys
and being on the space with you now.
And excited for the future here.
So just a little bit about DeepinScan
for those that aren't familiar.
So DeepinScan is more than just CoinMarketCap or CoinGecko
or something like that for Deepins.
It really empowers Deepin projects
to effortlessly create profiles, share real-time network level
data like no distribution and device location,
really cater to the Deepin sector.
And it really allows the Deepin projects
to peak investor and user interest
in all the amazing groundbreaking innovation
that all you guys are working on.
Additionally, just a few of the features
that we're launching in this latest version
include estimated daily earnings, trending projects.
Whenever there's a project that's
going to be launching a token, we're
going to have a pre-token section in there
where projects can talk about when their token's going
to be coming live and all about their listing.
Also links to buy and sell tokens.
Very detailed project pages, including
where the locations of their devices are.
DeepinMarketCap, volume, total devices,
all that kind of thing as well.
I just wanted to give a special shout out to the eight projects
that were a part of this specific launch and our launch
partners and several others that are also integrated with us.
But specifically, Helium, Akash, Streamr, Theta, Pocket,
Drive, Wi-Fi Map, and demo.
Just special shout out for all you guys and the five of you
that could make it on the stage today.
Let's get into it here and we'd love to hear from you guys
and allow you to introduce yourself and your company.
So to start with, Rob, would love to hear from you.
I'm one of the co-founders at Demo.
Prior to Demo, I was at Consensus for four years
and vroom.com before that, rest in peace.
So I got some good automotive e-commerce and web
Other co-founders come from Waymo and GM Ford, Mitsubishi.
So we got some good auto experience there.
And Demo is a connected vehicle platform.
You can connect your vehicle, mint and on-chain identity
for the car, and then most importantly,
You own that data and you share it with whoever you want to.
We're making cars smarter.
You can download any app you want
for your phone that uses GPS and data and all kinds of stuff,
but your car is kind of stuck in the landline era.
So Demo is meant to address that,
let anyone build apps on top of very solid infrastructure,
a true deep end protocol that can interoperate
with any other deep end protocol, lending, insurance
protocols, identity protocols, and so on.
And next, we'd love to hear from Scott.
Congrats again to the IoTeX team for launching the product
No luck goes into these things.
So congrats on getting this up and live.
Scott from the Helium Foundation.
We've been serving as the governance and community
coordination entity for the Helium network since 2021.
I think most folks know Helium builds wireless networks.
Started in 2019 with a focus on an IoT network,
really idea of creating connectivity for low power
smart devices, grew that to community of hundreds
of thousands of community owned hotspots deployed
In 2022, began build up of the Helium mobile network
as a crypto native carrier solution that also included
the launch of the Helium mobile carrier that Nova Labs runs.
So yeah, really the idea of how do we
think about wireless ubiquity?
How do you build up large decentralized wireless networks
to make sure no personal devices left behind?
Let's move on to Matthew from Streamr.
Yeah, I'm the head of ecosystem at Streamr.
Streamr was founded all the way back in 2017.
It's a decentralized streaming protocol and network
for any kind of real time data.
And it means that data from a machine or vehicle
or it could even be from a live video stream,
it all flows through this peer to peer protocol,
kind of like BitTorrent, if you're familiar with that,
instead of some web to owned data center.
So you can think of Streamr as this high level internet
At the base of the internet stack,
you have your UDPs, TCP, and so on.
Above this layer, but still very low down in the stack
is Streamr and its role as a data transport.
And so, yeah, there's a few things
that make Streamr quite special.
It can scale to any demand sort of magically
because it's peer to peer.
And every data packet on Streamr is signed at a source
so that you end up with an internet protocol
with data ownership and data provenance guarantees
baked in, which is pretty handy for deep in projects.
And that's why we're really excited to be a part
of this group as middleware and supportive
for all sorts of deep in projects.
Yeah, I'm not sure if you guys on the call saw yesterday,
a little tweet that went out from Streamr,
but we've been doing some really interesting work together
regarding zero knowledge proofs.
And there should be some awesome outcomes coming out of that
All right, let's move on to Dennis at Wi-Fi map.
Thank you for having me here.
I'm Dennis almost 10 years ago.
I've co-founded Wi-Fi map
and I'm an active CEO of the company.
The initial objective of Wi-Fi map was
to help people worldwide to find free and accessible Wi-Fi.
Over the years, it grew into a connectivity ecosystem
that offers a variety of products from offline maps,
VPNs, ECM data plans, and the Wi-Fi finder tool.
About two years ago, we started our web3 transformation.
And last year we've launched our Wi-Fi token,
utility token that helps us further incentivize
the crowdsource within our app.
And we've seen great success in the past year with it
and are now expanding our crowdsource
onto a new essential travel amenities
that are useful for travelers,
where it's gonna be a new type of web3 user-generated map
content available for our big audience.
We have over 175 million people that have used Wi-Fi map
installed on tens of millions of devices.
And the objective is to also bring this data on chain,
allow the next level of depth to be using this data
and build their solutions.
Moving on to Daniel, finally from Pocket Network.
Hey everybody, thanks for having me here.
I'm Olshansky from Grove, where I'm head of protocol
and I lead all the efforts on other research
and development on the Pocket Network protocol.
So Pocket Network is a decentralized RPC protocol.
What does that really mean?
That as a developer, if you need an RPC endpoint
or API endpoint to start developing a DAP,
regardless of what blockchain it is,
Pocket Network connects you to a diverse set of operators
across a diverse set of blockchains
so you can just get into building
rather than sinking a full node straight away.
And a little bit of work, it was created
almost seven years ago now.
Mainnet's been live for over three years.
Supports over 40 blockchains
and we're currently at about 400 million daily relays
across the entire network, across all the different nodes.
So it's been a lot of good growth over the years.
And just a little bit about myself
because it relates to the whole IoT conversations
We have Deemo here, so I actually spent a few years at Waymo
And even prior to that, I spent four years at Magic Leap,
which is, we made a lot of jokes at the time
that it was kind of a glorified IoT device
with augmented reality on top.
Awesome, thanks guys for the intros.
Yeah, we got an all-star crew here
and I think many in the space today
are just interested in understanding the space
a little bit deeper and hearing it directly
from the builders and the founders
that we have on the panel.
I wanna start with something kind of fun,
just like a rapid fire question.
We're starting to talk about metrics in Deepin.
It's amazing that we're even talking about
tracking the Deepin sector as a whole.
That means we are finally here and here to stay.
But my question to you guys is,
what is the single most important metric in your life
that you're constantly checking in on on a daily basis?
Just a quick rapid fire, maybe start with Rob.
In our lives or for our projects?
Oh, for your projects, yeah.
Say like, cups of coffee drink or something.
No, for us, the biggest thing that we're always tracking
is the number of connected vehicles.
And that's a pretty surface level metric,
but it is indicative of a lot of other things.
And we wanna quickly work our way down that
to the volume of meaningful transactions,
people buying and selling cars,
sharing with other people, that kind of stuff,
using the network in more meaningful ways.
Right now, we're building network effects
with a number of vehicles.
So that's the thing that we're tracking probably the most,
And maybe drilling down further as time goes on
or new initiatives kind of sprout.
Maybe that's gonna be the answer
for a lot of the companies here
is the number of total nodes or miners
or maybe it's wallets or users,
but let's hear from Scott.
What's the single most important metric
in the helium foundation's eyes?
Yeah, so for us, it really comes down to its data credit firm.
For those who are not following here as closely,
data credit firm is really the key metric
that is indicating network use.
So whether you're talking about an IoT sensor
that's tracking air quality or a cell phone
that is consuming data by browsing the web,
all that comes back to data credit firm.
And data credit, effectively,
it's almost just like a proprietary stable
It's how you actually use the helium network
is by bringing data credit to pass data through the network.
So whether it's IoT devices, mobile devices,
telling us effectively how much is demand
actually running through on both sides
and the variability of that.
Some of these IoT devices
are paying their past data once a day.
Some of them for like a physical asset
that might be running on the helium network.
So something in supply chain and transit
that's being tracked through a sensor
that might be pinging every few minutes.
So for us really, it all comes back to that
because our best indicator of demand of the network.
Yeah, I think that's a great proxy
for usage and utility, right?
Now that there's millions of hotspots,
some more active than others,
it's really indicative of how much these footprints
of devices are being used.
So it makes a lot of sense from the helium side.
Dennis, what do you think about Wi-Fi map?
Over the 10 year period that you've been doing this,
you guys are very, very mature now.
What metrics matter to you the most?
So as a CEO of the company,
my number one metrics is always the money, right?
I always wanna make sure I have enough money
for this project and not for development
enough to meet all the goals that we've established.
So it's still my number one habit for good or bad.
That's how I start my day.
But obviously as far as the business goes
for us, very important, the number of connections
that we establish, I think that's the number one metric,
every one of those are not just connections,
every one of these are us helping someone
somewhere in the world get online.
And then, and we actually,
we try to bring all of that stuff out now on our screens.
If you download our app, you see live activity,
live number of connections taking place,
number of contributors, users, number of active Wi-Fis.
So it's kind of one easy screen
that I just open on a daily basis.
And like the picture is in front of me
and it's in front of all millions of users as well.
Yeah, it's kind of a linear process here
from Rob to Scott to what Dennis said,
the devices bring the utility, brings the revenue.
So yeah, great to know that all of these
are kind of interlinked in some way, right?
Daniel, what do you think
from the grove and pocket side of things?
Yeah, so firstly, someone mentioned coffee.
That is also a metric I personally attract myself.
But on the pocket side, the number of relays
that flow through the network.
So a relay is our proxy for the number of requests.
And that really is the definition
of how much utility the network brings to its users.
So right now, like I said,
we're at about 400 million relays a day.
And after figuring out how many relays,
we're also looking at a diversification of blockchains
that are behind those relays, right?
So something like Ethereum and Polygon
are number one and number two.
But at the end of the day, pocket is a two-sided marketplace.
So you have applications that pay in pocket
for access to the network.
You have no providers that earn a pocket
in exchange for providing services.
So that's kind of the direct proxy to the utility
and also to the tokenomics of the network as well.
It's gonna be my next question
about supply and demand side metrics.
And I'm excited to hear more thoughts
about that with you, Daniel.
what are the most important metrics right now
Yeah, it's a funny question for us actually,
because when you're building a decentralized network,
the observability of that network
is actually incredibly complicated.
And so we have to build crawlers and all sorts of gadgets
to actually understand how our protocols are being used
because there's no central authority
where the data is passing through.
But yeah, the typical ones for us,
number of nodes, the data throughput,
and yeah, just like the count of operators
which are our sort of paid for or not paid for,
but kind of sponsored node operators in the network
that specifically join to provide a promise of stable
So yeah, there's a bunch of metrics like that
that we follow quite closely.
We'll dive in a little bit more
into the metrics in just a bit.
But Aaron has a question about adding some context
to what all these metrics mean.
So just to wrap that question up,
when we built Deep in Scan,
we really built it to cut across all Deep in projects
with data points that kind of matter to everyone.
But as we go here, we're definitely gonna try
and get more and more custom data
that your particular community wants to see
and things that you feel will be important
for other communities to see as well.
So I'm looking forward to that in Q1, Q2.
All right, moving on to the next question here.
Help us understand the real-world problems
Specifically, tell us about your industry you operate in
and how your company and Deep in fits into the picture.
So let's start with Rob from DMO.
First every time, I'll keep leading that.
So in the case of DMO, it's kind of like a,
it's a very, it's a very, it's a very,
it's kind of like, you might've heard about how
in some countries, they never even really had landlines
built, they just skipped right to cell phones
or didn't even have broadband,
just skipped right to like LTE and whatever.
We're gonna try to do that,
or we are doing that with mobility.
So you're used to having smart network devices,
but, and you're used to having ecosystems
who used to be able to use Spotify with your Alexa,
You're gonna download an app for your phone,
but you probably can't do that with your car.
Maybe you have a newer vehicle,
like a Tesla or something like that,
where you can lock and lock the car from your phone,
but you can't like download the,
like an insurance app and just stream your car's data to it
and connect it the way you can connect with a phone.
So we're gonna, instead of building the web two version
of that and then improving it with blockchain,
we're just building it right the first time
The reason it hasn't existed before,
but where Deepin comes in and blockchain comes in,
is unlike these other industries,
this one's very fragmented.
So you have a lot of different automakers,
they all have like single digit percentages
You have a lot of different insurance companies,
dealerships, it's like Bob Ralph's dealership
of Western Massachusetts.
It's all small, it's not all small companies,
but it's a lot of small companies.
And how do you get them all to agree on a standard?
It has to be neutral, credible, always open.
It has to be with open sources for software.
It has to be like open state for digital identity,
for vehicles and permissioning.
So the blockchain allows us to do that,
Deepin allows us to do that.
And it's gonna be very powerful
and we can hook that into insurance and lending
and ride handling protocols, car sharing protocols,
all kinds of stuff like that.
So that's what we're building.
And being a part of the Deepin ecosystem
interoperating with other IoT devices.
And then also just being able to interoperate with,
again, like lending, gaming, NFT,
auction marketplace style things,
like you'll be able to buy your car on like an open sea
and finance it with like a compound
and then pay for your connectivity with Helium
and all this stuff will just interoperate
I love this quote, last thing I'll say,
I'm reading the New Crystals book,
which I know, I don't know what the consensus is on,
on that yet, but I like it so far.
And the thing that he said that I loved is,
you can build a house with wood or steel,
but if you build it with steel,
you can build it much higher,
much more solid, earthquake proof, that kind of stuff.
So we're building that steel version
of this web to IoT ecosystem.
Yeah, I actually came from the automobile industry
at my previous company as well before IoTeX.
And really people don't even realize
the amount of data that's on those vehicles.
Like it's absolutely insane,
like they call it the computer on wheels for a reason,
It's only gonna get, yeah, a lot more intense too
that they all have like cameras now
and the battery technology is improving,
the compute for the self-driving,
even like LLM integration to vehicles,
there's gonna be a lot of compute
happening at the edge there.
And yeah, we can collect like weather,
we can build a weather map with barometric pressure,
there's so much being captured by these cars.
And it's not just about streaming the data
to someone who wants to buy data,
but it's about connecting it to the applications
you know, the same equivalent for your car.
Yeah, that one was one that surprised me
your collaboration with streamer
to provide weather data for developers like that.
I didn't even know that the fact that it was in the vehicle
and I came from the automobile industry as well.
So that's, it's pretty amazing.
Awesome, thanks a lot, Rob.
So moving on now to Dennis from Wi-Fi map
and then just wanna hear from Scott after that from Helium.
Yes, so the question is how we're helping
and what's decentralized about,
depending about our project, is that the question?
Close, it's about your industry specifically
and how you guys fit into the picture
and what problems and you're trying to solve.
Got it, okay, so the problem that we're trying to solve
is the lack of free and accessible internet.
And it's like, it's everywhere,
but at the same time, nowhere.
So we have like millions of Wi-Fi only devices,
limited data plans, Romans, premium Wi-Fis
and all of that is kind of prevents just a regular person
from having this fundamental right of free internet.
That's what we're trying to solve
and we're trying to empower people on our platform
to build out this network.
As far as like real use cases,
so during the war in Ukraine, Russia war,
number of providers, they just stopped providing
Wi-Fi services in a lot of locations.
And due to the fact that we don't work
with one single network, we were able to display
and still able to display to people in Ukraine
all the locations that are still working
and have Wi-Fi accessibility.
So it's a perfect example how these decentralized solutions
help solve video world problems.
Yeah, and I really love the way you guys have taken
a web to approach to building your project out.
Like there's a lot of non crypto people that use Wi-Fi map
and I think that's a great sign.
And there's very, very few projects out there
that really have that kind of web to based interest,
So yeah, who does do that?
We also translated ourselves in almost 70 languages.
We're available in over 200 countries.
So we're really building like global solution
not really targeting on one specific area per se.
Great, so finally, just gonna move to Scott at Helium
and then we'll move on to the next question.
There is a couple of questions for the streamer in the pocket.
Sure, so yeah, as far as the problem that Helium is solving,
the network was originally conceived around this idea,
how do you solve for IoT connectivity?
And what we're talking about there is low power sensors
that are performing simple tasks.
So air quality, measuring humidity, noise,
I mean, dozens of other applications.
And these are sensors that are kind of already out
And the economics there is really hard
for a centralized operator,
setting up radios, maintaining,
acquiring or leasing real estate.
And some of these network providers
on these types of IoT standards.
which is not necessarily a household name to most,
but if you're talking about a wireless standard
that is for low power long range.
But a decentralized network is perfect for this.
The ability for somebody to monetize a location or a venue
by doing the work of passing data through the internet,
you just have to insert the right type of incentive.
And that's where having a token to incentivize that work
and also verify coverage,
you're solving for a very traditional industry problem
by, through a community model.
Try one of the best, actually very recent example.
So the company in Portugal called Greenmetrics,
and they've got this large deployment in Porto,
and the entire business runs on the Helium IoT network.
that are putting up hotspots providing coverage
and Greenmetrics offers these flood monitoring solutions.
They're completely focused on their service,
their front end, the data they provide
all because there was an existing network
that is rewarded for passing data.
I don't think they had to put up,
almost certain they didn't have to put up
like the coverage was already there,
like the incentive works.
And that's one of many service providers
that are running solutions on top of Helium.
And that's the kind of the power of the space
is you're creating infrastructure
for a physical world solution.
So been really happy and excited to see
more of these types of things that are coming up
and live on the IoT network
around physical asset tracking, air quality metrics.
That was another one where we've had
where both for low income housing and construction zones,
they wanted to moderate air quality for the citizens.
And the fact that there was already an existing network
that they didn't have to jump through hoops
building that additional connectivity layer.
It's just really great in what's possible there.
This is why I still am so excited
about the IoT side of the network
because there's so many different applications.
There's so many different use cases
and building out that infrastructure
has always been hard from a centralized perspective.
So that's really where the network was really conceived.
And then obviously what we're seeing
a lot of momentum right now
is on the mobile and cellular side.
So when you look at the evolution
of cellular connectivity, 3G, 4G, 5G,
you're talking about higher bandwidth radios
that need to be closer together.
And the legacy telcos spending more and more billions
on billions every single year
to make sure that connectivity is there.
And they just, it's an ROI model.
So for rural areas, for certain urban centers
that may not be as well covered,
are they going to get enough subscriber traffic
through those areas to actually either lease
or own a new venue to put up a radio?
But with kind of the web three model
and then a community incentivized build up,
the idea that you're giving agency to small towns
that wanna be able to build up and provide coverage.
Now you can have a service provider that jumps in there
and now you've got an entire rural area
that has cellular connectivity,
but also you allow these incumbents to roam into that area.
So ideally, this is a win across the board.
You've got new competition from new carriers
like Helium Mobile that are creating
incredibly attractive rate just because the cost
of running data through is cheaper now.
You don't have that overhead
of all the additional real estate that's required
because the community is being rewarded for that.
So, yeah, on the cellular side, obviously just the idea
of how do you make sure that everybody has that type
of wireless mobile connectivity
because you are allowing communities, individuals
and commercial organizations
to deploy that coverage themselves, so.
Yeah, 100% and both sides of that business
that you of the Helium business are actually super exciting.
So and massive kudos to the way you guys
have really paved the way for everyone else
in the deep end sector, I gotta say.
Really the first one to take this
and prove out this business model,
which I think a lot of other projects have taken
and run with, so yeah, massive kudos there.
So Larry, love for you to take it away
and ask your next question here.
Yeah, really insightful just to hear more
about the problems that are being solved, right?
I consider demo, wifi, map and Helium to be kind of like
B to C to C businesses, like a protocol to consumer
to consumer businesses where consumers are standing
up this infrastructure or these decentralized physical
infrastructure networks and serving other consumers,
especially in the case of wifi map and Helium.
But streamer and pocket, you know,
I think the stakeholder set is a little different, right?
The protocol incentivizes consumers to create infrastructure
mostly for developers and for projects.
So it's interesting, a different set of stakeholders
and a different set of metrics to be tracked.
So, you know, Daniel, you kind of dove into a little bit
of the supply and the demand side,
but this is a crowd favorite framework to evaluate
a lot of crypto projects is this demand side
Do you share with our listeners a little bit about
how you view that supply and demand building challenge
and what does that mean specifically for pocket network?
Yeah, so that's a pretty good question.
And I think it has a lot of different angles
that we can kind of tackle it from.
But when it comes to the supply side,
I think going back to pockets roots, maybe
where the name pocket even came from.
The idea was seven, eight years ago,
when we realized that we're moving into a multi-chain world
is to have all access to all of the chains
directly from your pocket.
And in order to really do that,
we saw some other companies,
some larger centralized companies pop up
and just offer an API endpoint to a certain blockchain.
when running your own Ethereum node
started getting more compute heavy,
you would just offload that to another company
and hit an RPC endpoint and just trust it.
But when we're talking about making something really trustless
it's not just saying that
and then having a network become decentralized,
it's about having it be permissionless, right?
And a function of it being permissionless
is that a byproduct is that it becomes as decentralized
as the network needs to be.
So there's obviously a lot that has to happen
in order to start onboarding
and reaching out to the supply side,
raising awareness of the demand
that comes with different sorts of services.
But simply through the structure of being permissionless,
a new chain or a new service,
whether it's a blockchain service or not,
can pop up on the network
and be available and supplied
to whatever application needs to be built.
Now, again, when it comes to the demand side,
that's where it's always a tricky problem,
but it's a matter of raising awareness
or just listening to your users
that potentially they need access to certain service
and a central provider might not be supporting it
or might not be providing the proper quality of service
or might not be providing the price point
that an application developer might want to get in
and get access to that service.
So let me give you another example.
Right now, it's the tokenomics and the incentive layer
of the pocket network that enables a free market equilibrium
between the demand and the supplied.
And even though we're only targeting blockchains today,
you can even think of other services,
such as LLMs, for example,
where in the same essence
that syncing your own blockchain requires time,
requires DevOps expertise.
I don't know if anyone here has ever tried
running their own LLM locally.
It's especially when you get to the higher quality ones,
it takes a little bit of time to download it
to use GPU acceleration to have it run efficiently.
you may want to offload it to a certain supplier
that can really offer that at a good price point,
at a good quality of service.
So you're kind of just focused on developing the application
and using this RPC endpoint to offload all of that work.
I love the expansion outside of just Web3 demand side.
You guys started as obviously a very reliable RPC provider,
but now as the bandwidth and the data world
just grows exponentially,
a lot of Web2, traditional customers,
also want reliable decentralized infrastructure
for what they're building.
So it's really exciting to see what you guys are doing
with the expansion at growth.
And similar thing with Streamr, right?
I think Matthew Streamr kind of describes himself
as a data broadcasting protocol.
But there's so many different use cases on the demand side,
from AI to video to D-Pen apps.
How do you see this supply and demand kind of challenge
for you guys and for you guys in that roadmap?
Well, I see it's similar to how Pocket Network sees it
and what kind of peers or brothers and sisters
in this middleware layer.
And inside Streamr, we have this concept of sponsoring infrastructure
for a certain period of time inside a free market.
So, yeah, again, similar to how Pocket operates as well
on their incentive layer.
And what that means in practice for us
is that a sponsor comes and funds a smart contract with tokens.
And that smart contract then pays out to node operators
that provide a data relaying service for that sponsorship.
So our node operators form the supply
and the sponsors of sponsorships form the demand.
And in terms of the metrics that matter to us in this regard,
the harder one, of course, is clearly getting the sponsors,
the ones willing to pay for the service.
And the way that we build that demand
is to make a great protocol and network.
So there's no secret sauce that we just need to make.
Something that people want and love.
And so we're very focused on this.
On the demand side, in the crypto space,
we're kind of blessed with this superpower
that every single protocol is used
in that we can cold start this market dynamic with token
incentives to bring in the supply side
and kind of create the product to stimulate the demand.
So, yeah, it's very clear that focusing on the demand side
is really the game, yeah.
It's always tricky to focus on one or the other.
But it's kind of like an iterative cycle
of building supply, seeing where the demand is.
As more demand comes, the supply has to increase.
So interesting to hear your perspective of how Streamr
has gone through that cycle.
I'm going to hand it over back to Aaron for the next question
Yeah, in Deep and Scan, we track number of devices and miners
as well as the total market cap.
So currently, the number of devices and miners
sits at around $16 million for the deep end sector,
as well as $18 billion for the total market cap.
Just want to ask you guys here quickly,
what is it going to take to add an order of magnitude
to those numbers and really take Deep
Let's start this time with Dennis from Wi-Fi map.
So in our case, we're kind of not really shifting,
but we're opening up a new vertical
that we're building out when it comes to all this data that's
going to end up on chain.
And we see, in the near future, a number of depths
being built with the use of that data.
And I think the more products that
are going to be available that use our data
will result in just broader awareness, dependency, market
cap and fees, and everything associated to it.
So positioning is a lot to in our case.
Next, Scott would love to hear from you
and the sector in general and how
you anticipate the needs for the sector
to really take it to the next level.
Yeah, so obviously when we talk about devices online,
one, every project is unique.
And there's nuance to what that means.
And for helium device online, that
could be a hotspot that is out there
that's able to pass data versus a sensor or a cell phone that
is also a device that's using the network.
So you're talking about supply and demand
and being coming up with one number.
But obviously, perfect this is the enemy of goods.
So for any of these types of data products,
you have to start somewhere.
I think, in general, one of the things
that made helium very successful in the early days
was how much can you abstract away
any of the crypto elements for an end user
or somebody that's a network builder, in a sense.
The first helium hotspot is really
is such a consumer product compared to Bitcoin or Ethereum
It was so much less involved from a technical perspective.
And I look at where are we having success
on the network right now.
Look at the helium mobile carrier.
You're not really dealing with keys as much.
You're not necessarily getting into the hood
in terms of how something is added on chain or whatnot.
Nobody sees anything related to data credit burn.
It's a very, very intuitive experience.
So when I think about growth of the space,
the fact that we're dealing with the physical world,
it should work at the traditional consumer
or a traditional business owner in a way
that they don't have to interact with the blockchain,
the same way that you don't have to necessarily understand
everything around HTTP to access and appreciate
I think the same thing has to continue
to be a guiding light for all things.
Crypto or deep end of how much do we
continue to take those more technically complex layers
As we look at the IoT side of the network,
the ability to spin up a sensor and use it just
through a traditional web2-looking experience,
that's what's really going to continue to expand the pie.
So I think DMO does a great job of that just
to throw another shot here in a lot of these projects.
Again, the extent of it is easy, intuitive,
and the more that we think about UX as that end user North Star,
that's going to continue to expand the space, expand
the interest, and the value overall.
So to me, it really is so much a round of front end question.
How do we get more devices online?
Yeah, and to your original point there,
devices and moderners can totally be arbitrary and just
But it's not super easy to track growth of the sector,
and that's just one possible way of doing that.
So moving on to Matthew, I'd love to hear from you.
How do we grow the sector?
NFTs, I think we just don't have to stuff it up.
We're on an exponential curve.
We just need a bit of time.
And then we have all the pieces, all the right players.
We just need to be a little patient.
So that's my answer, I think.
Yeah, no, when you say exponential growth,
it's, of course, been a crazy run here.
So let's just keep that going.
OK, Rob, I'd love to hear from you as well there.
Yeah, I actually admit, I did not
think we were going to get out of this bear market so quick,
and I'll knock on wood, because there are some doomsayers still
But I don't know, it's an election year.
So I thought it was going to take real world adoption,
kind of undeniable utility, the things
that getting out of the hobbyist era into the people uses.
Some subset of people really use this in their everyday life.
People do that with NFTs and with DeFi and other things.
I'm not trying to discount those things,
but more consumer applications.
I think a lot of the projects on this, what do you call these?
Twitter space would fall in this category.
So I still want to see us get there as quickly as possible,
because you guys appreciate the shout out on the UX front.
That's definitely a piece of it.
What that's getting at more largely
is usability and usefulness and not creating any barriers
to your supply, but also creating.
I believe you go beyond that and provide incentives
I think in the case of Helium, it makes a little bit more sense
that it's like you plug in the miner, you earn the token,
and that's the main thing that you get
from joining the network with demo.
And I think that's powerful enough.
We're very inspired by and in some ways based on the Helium
I think in our case, we have a bit more of an opportunity
to give that data back to you in ways that help serve you,
given that cars are less smart of a IoT device class today,
but then really getting to the developer use cases as well.
And that's where a lot of our attention
is going to be in 2024 is on the demand side.
No others have said that as well already,
but people building things with that data.
And when that flywheel really gets going,
I think that the token's a great way.
Talk about Cold Star, a great way to get that all moving.
But you got to start taking those training wheels off
gradually and having a more sustainable long-term flywheel.
And we're moving aggressively towards that.
And I think seeing projects doing that successfully
is going to be what helps to move the whole space forward.
Which is what Helium's doing now.
The stuff out of Mexico, I think, is so cool.
I mean, Miami was cool enough with T-Mobile.
But having another network roam onto Helium is super cool.
And I call them out because they're one of the farthest
ahead, and other deep end projects
are making similar progress.
We're just all kind of earlier stages.
All right, thanks a lot, Rob.
Finally, moving on to Daniel.
I'd love to hear from your side as well.
Yeah, so to riff off of what Matthew from Streamr
said, in the short term, NFTs are probably going to help.
But in the longer term, one of the things
I really like about the deep end sector
is that it's not crypto for crypto's sake.
It's crypto and incentive and web 3
for the sake of having a real world physical presence
and providing real world utility.
And again, I think Rob said this,
that creating no barriers of entry for your supply
So again, that requires things to be truly permissionless
and making sure that the incentives are
in place for a permissionless network to function properly.
Not just in the short term, but really be
sustainable in the long term.
So for example, a couple of things
that we're working on actively that will have come out,
maybe there's an upgrade coming out in the next few weeks.
And there's also some longer term work
that we're working on is this separation of concerns
to enable anyone to be a hardware provider on the network.
Because right now, usually if you have a lot of expertise
in DevOps and hardware maintenance,
whether it's building an IoT device
or managing a data center, you then also
need to go and build a product on top of it
and go and reach out to end users.
But the beauty of crypto and permissionless networks
is that if you're really just good at one thing
and you really just want to build efficient data centers
and not have this beautiful product gateway on top of it,
you can still earn revenue and build a business around it.
So for example, with the work that we're doing
and the next upgrades that are coming out,
long term we see ourselves as also becoming
the incentive layer for TCP IP.
And depending on what role you want to play in the OSI stack,
you can still provide really efficient hardware
or really efficient relaying or be really, really
good at one part of it and through incentives,
build a sustainable business without needing
to own the entire vertical stack.
And so I think that's how we can really grow the entire sector
Thanks, everyone, for your answers there.
The future is definitely looking bright for the sector.
Yeah, let's hope to see the order of magnitude
But if not, I think we're all in it for the long run here.
I think there's a lot of sentiment being shared
We build upon each other, even though some
of the projects are competing for node operators
and attention, getting more people into the deep in pie
is certainly a hugely important thing for all of us.
And I think there's a lot of folks in this space
or listening right now that have an idea for a deep in project
and look up to our panelists for advice and guidance
and frameworks, just as Rob mentioned about DMO
taking some notes from Helium and some of the real OGs
So this question is about, if you
had to give some advice for new deep in project founders
listening right now, what would you tell them?
I think we can start maybe with Scott.
Oh, man, where would I begin on this one?
I think that it's, for us, I think one thing that went very,
very well was really so much focused on the community
It's how you stress testing tokenomics,
how you're thinking about value, really in terms of priority.
The community is such a critical asset.
And I think that's something that every web 3 project
shares because they're the evangelists.
They're going to help to educate.
They're going to help with growth.
They're going to be thinking about supply and demand side.
And they're going to hold you the most accountable
So I think that that's a high priority.
I think the other thing that progressive decentralization
is another one of really what's decentralized enough.
Because when you optimize for something like that too early,
you don't want to lose sight of quality control.
Like at the end of the day, what is being built of value
that an end user, end consumer can interact with, use,
and something that's sustainable?
So as much as a lot of this is around permissionless,
decentralized open networks, think about what's really
Because it's one way that you can end up
earning a lot of time and resources, as opposed
to thinking about how do we have enough input?
How do we have enough distributed stakeholders where
the network is certainly neutral?
But you're not doing that expensive end product there.
So really, always focus on the community.
Make sure you're giving back.
Make sure they're being heard.
And just thinking about the decentralization element.
Dennis, why don't we go to you?
As someone that's been in the space for 10 years now,
cutting your teeth in the startup world,
we've built a great business.
What kind of advice do you have for new founders out there?
For new founders, so from a business in general standpoint,
I would highly recommend everyone to triple check
that the problem they're trying to solve
is really indeed a problem and requires a solution.
And then as far as token-specific launches and stuff,
I would tell everyone to do their due diligence
on the market makers they're choosing,
on the tokenomics they're developing,
and just making sure you're surrounding yourself
with the right team that has aligned goals with you.
Surround yourself with excellence from day one.
Rob, why don't we go to you next?
The less custom hardware you need to get started, the better.
That's always a real pain for us.
We had the supply chain issues at the time.
I'd also say to Deepin, you can go very broad.
IoTeX, Streamr, they're infrastructure
You can go very narrow and really pick a lane.
I love, I think this project, Nosh, is pretty cool.
They're trying to do DoorDash.
DIMO is somewhere in the middle, or somewhere
between Nosh and Streamr.
We're specific with the mobility,
but broader than just delivery.
I just think you can do either.
Just make sure you're deliberate about it.
Don't try to boil the ocean if you're
doing something that's more targeted.
Pick a lane to get started, or be very deliberate
about what you're carving off at the infrastructure layer
if you're trying to go broad.
Yeah, that's great advice.
As the industry becomes more modular,
and as the Deepin infrastructure and tooling
becomes more modular, picking something
you want to be the best in the world at,
and partnering with others that focus
on more narrow or modular pieces of the tech stack.
Speaking from IoTeX's experience,
that's hugely important to us to provide infrastructure
for some or all of the stack for Deepin builders.
So appreciate that for sure.
Yeah, let's go to Matthew from Streamr.
What advice do you have for new prospective Deepin founders
Yeah, I would say build in the open.
Involve your community at every step.
It's really important, and it's just a good way
to keep your focus on building something
that your customers will love, community customers kind
And build with the goal to last forever.
It's another way of saying that your protocol should be
on a path towards decentralization
so that if the core team died in some plane crash,
your protocol, your product, your Deepin, whatever,
And so if you have that mentality,
I think it's really kind of healthy and powerful
for the project and for the community
to be involved in something that's
going to last a long time.
You heard it from Matthew.
The key advice, don't die.
And if you do have to die, make sure there's someone
to open source, carry it forward.
But honestly, that's some of the best advice in crypto.
You just got to survive, right?
So appreciate that, Matthew.
And finally, Daniel, what type of advice
do you have to the listener base that
wants to get deeper into Deepin today?
Well, to follow up on not dying isn't that easy.
But what I'll say is, especially if you're just
getting started in Deepin, sooner or later,
you're going to have to be focused either on the supply
Because one side isn't going to be pulling its weight
once I may be running a little too fast
So you're going to be worried about both of them
And the important thing is to be very
opportunistic about which side you can help
grow at a certain point in time, whether that
means you need to bootstrap your own supply
and then go and look for demand.
Or maybe you'll build an application
and be the demand, potentially even bootstrap
But the moment the incentives kick into place,
you'll find some external party coming in onto the network
and providing that supply for demand that you created.
So just be very opportunistic around who has services
to offer or who has demand that they need to fill
and jumping in at the right time with the right product.
Also, just being deliberate with your actions
and cognizant of where you are in the roadmap, definitely.
That's all the time we have for today.
I really want to thank all of our guests today providing.
We talked about a lot, what metrics they track,
their views on supply and demand,
what's coming next for the deepened sector,
how do we grow it as an industry.
So I just really want to thank our panelists today.
Go check out their progress and keep track of everything.
And Deepened Scan is the place that was going to have a lot
of this information that we talked about today.
If you're interested in how the demand side is growing,
the supply side is growing,
how the fundraising side is going,
deepenscan.io is the place to check it out.
So really want to thank our panelists again
for being our launch partners and for joining
and spending their valuable time today.
So we'll do more of these very soon.
So checking out for now, thank you guys.
Have a great day. Thank you so much.