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DeSci Office Hours
Recorded: May 28, 2025 Duration: 1:04:54Space Recording
Short Summary
In a vibrant discussion on decentralized science (D-Sci), participants explored innovative projects aimed at enhancing scientific collaboration and transparency. Key highlights included the launch of educational initiatives, the introduction of a bridge protocol for reproducibility, and a growing trend towards sharing negative research results to foster a more open scientific community.
Full Transcription
Hi guys, GM this is Kiho behind the mics of molecule let me invite my co-host Karlin to the stage Can you hear me?
Yeah, perfect.
Nice.
How's it going, buddy?
Doing good, man.
How's it going for you?
Good.
Rainy day in Chicago.
Awesome.
But I've got a nice little view from the office I'm writing from today.
Fantastic. How are you?
I'm doing good, buddy. Likewise.
Reporting from India.
Nice. Reporting from India.
It's half past eight and the weather is quite windy.
We had rain for the last few days.
So yeah, very comforting, pleasant weather.
Yeah.
It's nice to have a little rainy day.
Yeah.
Always good. Rain is always good so yeah before we get into it um i just want to quickly introduce
ourselves first i'm kiho i'm a dsy maxi uh d sci builder i'm into microbiome d sci and
anything that instigates my curiosity and we have carlin carlin is our the scientist
in the d sci part so if i'm the d part he's the scientist side part so let him introduce
himself yeah welcome everybody i'm carlin i am a uh molecular biologist by training um d-sci
enthusiast by you know that's kind of where my passions have drawn me. Very passionate about, you know, translational research,
using, you know, the wonders of science to help others.
So that's hopefully what we're here to do.
Fantastic.
So we have Vexa here. do you want to say a few words
yeah happy to have you yeah thank you so much thank you for giving me the mic jim jim everybody
i'm vex halia i'm a school cell warrior and i'm also very interested in Desai. I also educate people about Desai
because we need the knowledge gap to be caught a little close
between the community and people that are interested in Desai.
So I host spaces for Desai.
And yeah, I'm also into onboarding people into the Desai space. I'm fascinated with Desai
and seeing what science, how blockchain and science can actually match together the tech
and the science and also to advance and impact people's lives. And I'm also working on gene therapy to know exactly how gene therapy can help sickle cell warriors.
Thank you so much.
Awesome. Happy to have you again to our DSI office hours. I think we have Renu,
gene therapy stem cell therapy expert here. Renu is also part of our dc edu program
uh soon to be graduated this friday yeah and she's our budding new dsci communicator
renault do you want to come up to the stage and introduce yourself
come up to the stage and introduce yourself inviting you to speak yes you got it
um yeah hello everyone so uh i just recently uh completed or in the process of completing
the decide you program with molecule um i think it was like a wonderful course took me like in depth as to what DISA does and brought me well within the community.
And recently I've also begun getting more into this space and I've launched my YouTube channel where I'm going to cover a lot of topics, which is a part of DISA as well.
So I'm creating scripts
and would be loving to have a lot more people from the space
to come into having podcasts with me
so that we can bring in more people into this ecosystem.
So wonderful to be here.
Awesome.
That's awesome. Can you share the YouTube with us? Wonderful to be here. Awesome.
That's awesome.
Can you share the YouTube with us?
Yes, of course.
I can just add it in the comment section.
Yeah, please do.
Yeah.
Yeah, looking forward to your content.
Like I really loved your recent Capstone assignment.
I think the bridge protocol aiming to look at negative data
results, which often is sort of discarded as a waste in the
scientific ecosystem.
I think definitely there is a huge value there and there are a
lot more incentives for being open with sharing the results, be it negative or positive, and incentivizing people to practice open science.
I think that's a good start as part of your DSi Edu journey.
I was super happy to see you grow from zero to 100.
Would you like to pitch us about the bridge protocol that
you guys are building? Yeah, I'd love to hear it from you. Yes, of course. So basically, our idea
was to improve the reproducibility crisis which exists in science but along the way also to bridge those scientists
who are living in a completely centralized world to come into this decentralized area and space
for them to have a look at it so these were like two core issues that we really wanted to sort out
with our problem and we focused on these two areas as the major problem.
And we came across this protocol, which can be built on a Web3 environment, which is called
a bridge protocol for a capstone project, which kind of verifies scientists as well based on
their contribution. So one thing is we introduced time banking and
knowledge currency, knowledge liquidity pools, which basically can be used as currency, like a
barter system. So in case, for example, I'm a scientist, and I have discovered something,
and I've done something really good, but I want someone who is in this community who can look at my work and see that, you know, there is good amount of validity.
So in sort of a peer review system, then they would put in their time and their knowledge and their hours.
And when they introduce something or they want a peer review, then because they have contributed their hours then you know it's
like a barter system so i will be contributing my hours so we introduce this kind of a system with
verifiable badges so as in when the scientists contribute more to the design environment
as as in when they put more of their time, they do the peer review sessions.
They acquire a certain number of points in order to receive these badges.
These badges could be easily like these ticks which are there on X where you can carry it along with you in different channels.
And it also solves the issue of anonymity in Desai
because when I came into Discord, I think it was always super
overwhelming. And there are a lot of people who have pseudo names where you cannot figure out
who they are. So if someone has a badge next to them, they can stay anonymous, but then they have
this badge which is verifiable on chain that they have personally acquired so in
case tomorrow they put up a project you can for sure say that you know this is a person who has
good amount of knowledge they have contributed science and they can be verified so you can put
in your money on them you like a bet on them because you know that they can give you back what you need as well.
So this was one aspect. And the second thing is also the negative results.
So a lot of people like the scientists, they publish all of their fancy results in papers and then the negative results are completely dumped.
dumped. So what we thought was this would be a good way where a scientist can always publish
their work to maintain their credibility in the centralized world. But then they can stamp or
timestamp their negative results on chain so that anyone can come back and have a look at
what they have done and then possibly replicate it. And because the scientist is already in the Desai space,
anyone can even take in guidance from the scientist
in order to reproduce the experiment.
So we're just building a global collaboration.
So this was basically our idea.
And hopefully we can bring it into a product as well
because my group members are like super excited,
but we need a web three person to help us out.
So that's a, that's an open call for people here in the group.
If you guys love the idea, please feel free to reach out to Rayno.
I just wanted to dig a little deeper into the topic, right? Like you said, building
a reputation system for scientists who contribute to DSAI. And also you emphasized on the point
of anonymity. I think that's part of the Web3 culture, staying with these sort of pseudonyms or anonymous and still being able to contribute and all that.
Given that, if imagine, right, like someone kind of, you know, stakes their reputation and builds
all this reputation. So there's both good and bad reputation attached to it, right? Like,
sometimes you contribute well, you are a good actor, you do things, you know, like the best possible way.
But sometimes there are people who kind of, you know,
are trying to game the system.
So how do you like, you know, protect your protocol
from these attack vectors where bad actors can come in
and imagine like there is no KYC,
then, you know, anyone can create a new account
and come back and, you know, start, you know, doing the same thing.
So have you thought about that, like in terms of safeguarding this?
Because when we say reputation attached to your keys, it's not just keys, it's the person behind the key.
So how would you tie it to that person?
This is a really good question i think uh one aspect is that because uh everyone in the ecosystem is looking at what each other
everyone is doing uh if there is any kind of work or anything that has been deposited, which is not of any value, and they're trying to just gain
points based on it. Our idea is to build the ecosystem in such a way that everyone is involved.
So if one person also sees that there is some kind of an issue, they will obviously like point it out
because it's a cross peer review kind of a system so we don't want any kind of trash also
being submitted so your points come in only when the entire community acknowledges that what you
have done is right so you get like say if I put in a particular data set or I key stamp some of
my metadata the entire community will verify it it's more like how it works with the token holders.
It's the same thing.
So initially, of course, the people who are the scientists who are in the Web3 space will begin with this journey to start verifying the product and validating and to see how it works within them.
And these will be people who we already know in the ecosystem.
So we have a core team of people who we already know in the ecosystem so we have like a core
team of people who start using the product then you know questioning each other on what they're
doing and then validating whether what they're doing is right or not and then trying to see
how they're gaining points based on the rest of the people's vote. So it's just like how the DAOs work, but it would just build a trust layer
with this kind of a protocol coming in.
So, I mean, we really have to build it up
because we're in a very, very nascent stage.
It was just a small idea that was pitched.
I completely understand there'll be like a lot of intricacies,
but I think we can
work around with it because we have a pretty good team and we would also love to have more number of
people who can understand how this implementation can be can be brought into fruition so that's when
we'll really get to know how we can try this, even with the risk management.
On to you, Carlin. Any thoughts?
You are a scientist.
Yeah, I love it.
I wish I was a Web3 person so I could hop onto you guys' team.
But I think that when I'm thinking about this,
something that comes to my mind maybe is a way to almost like pre-check people.
And like maybe there's a maybe you could implement a system or something that in order to even enter the community or begin to put your put your work up, you have to like first contribute.
Is that is that maybe something you guys have been thinking about?
And, you know, I think maybe what, what also are you thinking of sort of,
it, what is a, you know, a next step for your like current,
where you're at, look like to you?
The first step of verification would, of course, be the credentials between,
because now that we're talking about a completely bridge
between the centralized and the decentralized world,
in the centralized world, every scientist has certain credentials,
like their university, the number of publications, etc.,
which is already seen. There can be certain aspects which can be used to even verify their
credentials and they can put in these credentials on chain so that there is like some sort of a
pre-check that can be done before they enter the community, to know that these people actually have a background in science,
they are scientists maybe.
So this could be a pre-check that can be put across.
But yeah, this was one of the ideas as well,
which one of my teammates suggested
that this could be a nice checkpoint for us.
So we just don't bring in anyone and everyone into the community.
Yeah, because I'm picturing maybe someone who has a different presenting face when they're really themselves versus putting on like a vigilante mask to go out and get you know, get to the bottom of all the dubious
research results that are being posted or something like that.
So I want to make sure that those people, you know, also have some way to be held in
check, I think would be really important.
But yeah, this sounds like a really cool project, Reno.
I'm excited to see where you go next.
Any thoughts about maybe like talking with like people from research hub or
anything like that?
It sounds a little bit like the peer review system could maybe roll in or
something like that.
I think we haven't really thought about it to that extent yet,
because this was just for our capstone project.
But then we have to see,
of course, we'll be taking some sort of guidance from the team from Molecule as well.
Because we're all pretty new to the DSI sector. All of my teammates, we're all scientists.
Everyone's just joined the DSI ecosystem just for the D-SciDU course.
So I think Kehoe as well told us that he will be helping us with it.
So let's see where it goes.
So, of course, looking forward to talking to Research Hub, if that's a possibility.
But fingers crossed, everything works well.
Cool.
And you're in great hands with Kehoe.
Definitely. Thanks, guys. So one more
thing, like, have you guys heard about this human passport? So, yeah, Vexa, you have your
hands raised. So you say you have okay, you heard about.
No, no, no.
I have a question for Renu about her protocol.
And I wanted to ask, is your group, yeah, I know it's like a group.
Is it for only scientists?
That's number one.
And number two, would you guys like have a token for scientists to like pay to get verified? And the third one is how can we also be accepted so they could get mentorship from
other scientists that have gotten their PhDs and they've gotten years of experiences in the science field?
Yes, like for the first question, it's not really restricted to scientists.
Like the work is not restricted to scientists, but the product is solely for scientists because we want to build this kind of a system where a lot of scientists do come into the DISA ecosystem and contribute and build projects, even clinical scientists.
And maybe if it can be expanded to clinicians,
but that was not our first line of thought as of now.
But it's not a DAO in specific.
So we want to build this as a part, a product which any DAO could use.
They could bring it about as a trust layer and
incorporate it within their DAO so what we what we thought of in our vision was just a product
not you know a DAO in specific because this wouldn't resonate well as a DAO because it needs
this trust layer has to be incorporated in every DAO when researchers
wherever researchers and scientists are really involved so that is our first thing second thing
for students we thought of building a website which includes topics about decentralized science, certain podcasts, maybe an extension just because
a lot of scientists coming in, a lot of clinicians, students coming in don't understand a lot of
intricacies which is involved in this DeSci ecosystem. A lot of topics and jargon can be
extremely complicated. So just to simplify for them to understand that, you know, the environment that they're coming into is not a hoax.
It is something that is valuable.
It is something that they can contribute to, for which they need to understand and have the knowledge.
So we will be building a knowledge database for them as a part of our product.
And it will just be like a LearnHub.
And I think anyone can contribute.
Yeah, Vexa, you can go ahead.
VEXA VEKSA- Thank you so much.
You really clarified me on your product and your project.
And I'm really rooting for you.
Yeah, I'm giving you a subscribe.
I've subscribed to your YouTube channel, and I'm waiting rooting for you. Yeah. I'm giving you a subscribe. I've subscribed to your YouTube channel and I'm waiting for your content.
I would love to even collaborate if that's possible.
Like, you know, you could also come in.
We can have like a podcast together.
It would be really nice.
Oh, I'm feeling.
Oh, my God.
I'm so excited.
Yeah.
So that would be very nice.
I'll talk to you in the DMs and we could see
how we could collaborate too.
Yes, of course, of course.
Wow, lots of good vibes here.
I might cry.
This is beautiful.
Interesting.
So, Reno, I definitely think, right,
like this project uh bridge protocol uh
will has its own purpose in the growing dsai ecosystem because as the ecosystem grows um
scientists are like one of the biggest part of the ecosystem where they are going to drive the
science part and it's not just like you know senior reviewers or senior researchers but also like young budding uh phds postdocs and graduates who want to
get into dsci uh sort of see like you know any sort of side gigs that can help them in
in turn of you know using their science expertise to review articles or to share their lab protocols, to vet others' protocols.
I think definitely there is an economy that's going to develop for this particular product.
And I think even DAOs would be interested in terms to find their scientist pool, right?
To look at your particular product and streamline and pick up those scientists who are
verifiable, right? Like as you presented the verified tick mark as we have it in Twitter,
you guys can be that verifiable layer who verifies all the scientists who are coming into the system.
I think it's definitely an interesting product. Super happy to see where it goes from here.
Also super happy to help from Molecule's side, from my personal side.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I'm really excited about the learning aspect, too,
because, you know, we're trying to make things more decentralized.
Maybe you don't necessarily need to go to, you know, the number one university
to be sort of like, you know, the number one university to, to be sort of like,
you know, listened to and respected in the scientific community. And I think there's,
I mean, I don't know about you, Kehoe, but I never really have gotten like a, here's how to do a
peer, like, here's how to write a peer review. And here's the things you need to be like,
looking at sort of, it's one of those things where, if you're publishing, I think it's more
of a voluntary, you know, if you're publishing I think it's more of a voluntary
you know if you publish to a certain journal you volunteer maybe to do some peer review for them
but it's something that we don't get a lot of practice at and I think like standardizing that
and teaching that will also go a long way toward you know continuing to build a like self-sustaining
sort of a better better process that, you know, decentralized across all these multiple different projects, which is going to be sick.
And a follow-up question to you, Karlin.
What do you think about the exposure on Research Hub or other decentralized publishing platforms uh in the general science community
uh what do you think like you can definitely see right like bio archive was something which was uh
you know not so well recognized back then like as a reputed journal but now you see like bunch of
uh interesting papers come there and now it's it's widely accepted across the research community right like
do you think that sort of transition is happening for research hub because i read an article uh
from on nature regarding research hub they sort of you know um gave a gave a a pat on the shoulder but but to criticize as well right like how this might not work because
you are you're kind of fighting against them uh so what do you think like i think in my opinion
like bringing uh top tier scientists as like you know to to create this sort of ivory tower system
to motivate other young researchers to come and participate in these are of publishing houses but I think the primary push should come from uh the universities right like institutions in
general because they are in the close tie with uh these publishing houses because they they work
hand in hand because uh the the university gets the funding but then the they get the free uh
sort of premium for uh you know going through all these articles for all their university members.
Right. So what do you think, like your general, you know, idea about the space of publishing?
Where is it going?
Yeah, I think I think Research Hub and I do think about BioRxiv quite a bit whenever we're talking about sort of like the open ended version of publishing, where now my program, you know, before you had to have your paper fully published, but now before you were able to graduate, but now it just needs to go up on bioarchive.
bioarchive, which is really interesting, because it kind of got rid of the, I think, I think it's
moving away from like, the keeping secrets part of science, like you kind of have to keep your
your updates to yourself sort of thing. But now with bioarchive and stuff like that, it's,
it's all out there. And that's great. But, it's, I think it's still missing that like peer review that research hub is,
is bringing to the table. So like you said,
I think it starts with the individual PIs, honestly, like, you know,
in my lab, the,
the person who decides where a paper is going to go and who care cares
ultimately about what is, you know,
what publishing says for your, like, you know, not just your, what
your lab has to say, but what people have to think about, you know, what your lab has
to say.
Like, if it's in nature, instantly, that's going to mean that it is something that, like,
almost everybody in the scientific community is going to try to at least, like, skim through.
But if it's in, you know, maybe one of these pay to play journals or,
I mean, they're all pay to play,
but one of these more like predatory journals
in which the ones where they like, you know,
don't even do a proper peer review process.
Those are the ones that, you know,
I think maybe give the like bio archives
and the research hub, like more of a,
less of a ground to stand on. But all it takes
is maybe one person, you know, who published in Nature and who published on Research Hub to come
up with an article like, here's why Research Hub is better than Nature. And then I think more of
the like traditional scientific community might come around to the more decentralized way to like do publishing and peer review.
But that's just like, you know, that that also has to do with a lot of the more I think a lot of more newer science, like newer people coming into science are less of the ivory tower types, but a lot of the old guards still kind of stand strong and, you know, will,
even if it's a, you know, nature communications or something like that, not like a full,
not in the main journal, they hold those in such high esteem over these more
easy, easy to publish journals. But it's funny because they hold that high esteem and
yet they continue to complain about how difficult it is to publish. So I think maybe, maybe,
maybe Renu, you can reach out to some of these, some PIs that maybe, you know, publish quite a
bit or, you know, have experience publishing in different types of
journals and maybe get them to like, try it out, give them your two cents or something like that.
Yeah, you have a question? Yeah, not just not a question. But I have something to say with this.
I think most of the PIs and a lot of these scientists are very like in their old world,
old school thoughts. and most of them they
still want to publish they're all working towards publication so I mean this publish and publish or
perish aspect is a real big problem which is lurking in the entire scientific world and
personally when we also thought about it one thing one thing for us would not to remove this entire aspect of publishing in Nature or Springer or anything before we bring them into the DSI community.
So they should be able to do both. That was our idea because that is where we thought we have the bridging come in.
So first we have to make them taste how this world is before they can fully
jump into it so that was our aspect so if we can convince them that you know hey you can publish
your paper in nature in springer lz where wherever you want to to keep up your credentials to keep up
your university credentials we don't care about that But then you can also publish your negative results. You can timestamp your like your negative results on chain over here, which is like on the other side of the spectrum so that your data doesn't get lost.
So tomorrow, if someone wants to replicate whatever you've done, it's there somewhere.
You know, you have your publication done. That's forgotten. That's lost.
Many people may not even want to access it
that's okay because everything is there over here and once a particular scientist has looked at this
side of it maybe the next time that they want to publish they will want to publish in like the
desai ecosystem itself so we never know we have to like bring about a change in mindset, which is quite difficult. And as Colin said, I think younger ones to crack, especially in this. So I think giving them both
this aspect would work well in the initial stages. And we'll also have a huge community
of scientists who are willing to test and come into this community. So that was the
thought behind our protocol as well. I love that it's bridging the trad and the decentralized version of things.
I'm almost picturing an experiment you could do where you try to publish, you know, you
publish, you know, the traditional way and through the bridge protocol and, you know,
seeing how fast you can get back your reviews from the different aspects to
sort of make the case that this could make things more efficient and improve the overall
quality of the experience for everybody.
That sounds really great.
And, Reina, why do you think these researchers will be interested in publishing their negative results?
Is there any incentive for them to do that?
Where do you tie this up?
Because these results are discarded not just because it didn't work or it's negative but also like you know uh let's let's be honest in in
today's world scientists are like overworked in a way that they don't do much of science but
primarily writing grants writing publications community communicating the results uh and
managing certain organizational tasks within the lab within the lab So it's not just doing science.
You have multiple other things that you need to kind of focus on.
Amid of this, will you think that all these scientists would be interested in putting their results
or negative results or even timestamping their lab notebook on-chain?
If they would do so
what's the incentive for them did you guys think about this
yes one thing is yeah the one one thing is also cross collaboration so in case they want
like they want any kind of knowledge or any kind of resources from different global labs or results
across countries then this is one thing that you know would bridge scientists who are there in like
two different parts of the world who would never have met and who are working on very similar
research for them to come come in and collaborate so one incentive would be that they will bring in more number of people
who can cross collaborate with each other.
But the other aspect is
if this layer is incorporated within a DAO,
then all of the benefits that a researcher gets
while being within a DAO
and integrated with the DAO,
they would get it like along with, you know,
just having and publishing the results. So in case they want like some sort of funding and at some
stage if they want to come in and, you know, make decisions regarding, say, longevity studies in
VitaDAO, then they can just be a part of the DAO as well. And all of the benefits which they would get with the
DAO, they would also receive as an incentive. So that is one aspect. And the second is they get
like a huge network of scientists. So for them to do any kind of research, if something's not
working out for them in a lab, and also they don't have to redo a lot of the research that they do because this would save them a lot of the costs,
especially for redoing a lot of experiments. Like just for example, if someone is working on
identifying certain molecules from mushrooms across the world to solve a particular problem,
and another scientist is doing the same thing without being aware that you
know both of them are repeating the same thing both of them are involving the same amount of
resources and to be honest in the scientific world resources are the highest amount of money that you
spend in the need for grant writing is also because you need to spend money on your chemicals
and your resources to do the experiment so if you can just bring in data from someone else who's already done it to just build upon something, it would save a lot of money in general.
So this is a big incentive.
Personally speaking, I think it's one of the huge incentives that a scientist could ever get instead of redoing everything from scratch.
Yeah, I agree with the later part.
Like the incentive being like being open about sharing your results will earn you more sort of, you know,
the sort of open science movement where you don't have to waste a lot of resources on the same thing.
But also on the other side, like like flip side if you look into it
bridge protocol or dci uh right now doesn't have such a big ecosystem to offer right like
for these scientists who are coming in and uh even if you if you like you know uh look at these
doubts critically um they don't have that sort of capital that any central grants would
you know provide to these scientists so in that case how would you bring these early
you know onboarders into your bridge protocol I think that one place you could start with is like
you know looking at places like research gate or is like, you know, looking at places like ResearchGate or other platforms where, you know, researchers kind of, you know, share protocols, you know, have these sort of, you know, discussions and open forums.
But I think there is a critical side which we need to, you know, dig deep into it because I personally like went into this rabbit hole of
incentivizing negative results but it didn't work out well like I just like
met with huge brick walls that's why I'm just like you know pointing you guys in
the direction where you need to like focus a little bit more because um like all those incentive layers are not there yet
it will definitely come but there are alternatives so how would you convince like which protocol is
something that you know is is interesting for you guys to try uh in the in the first place. So probably, yeah, you guys need to think a little bit deeply
about that particular question.
Yeah.
And Vexa has been raising hands for so long.
OK, Renu, I want to encourage you first of all.
to encourage you first of all uh keep on building and you find the decentralized um market to come
to your protocol that's what i'll say because this is how defy started this is how bitcoin started
so i just want to um keep putting uh when you talked about scientists having to work on one
topic like three different scientists having to work on one topic like three different scientists having to
work on one topic just because they are not together they don't know what they're actually
working on and the waste resources the waste money and this will make a research you'll get results
faster because imagine bringing a topic and you delegate different areas to different scientists in your protocol.
And they are very, very good at this.
It will make this research go very fast
instead of people trying to start from the beginning to the end.
And yeah, thank you so much.
And I really want to tell you to keep going, keep building, baby.
That's interesting, thoughxa because sometimes the negative data can just be a an avenue to a new innovation as well so sometimes i think maybe people keep their
negative data to themselves because they are building a separate story that they don't have the full
information for yet. And so I think that collaboration, you know, will be a key part
of the new, the new way that we're doing things. But it also, you know, begs the question, like,
what if you're a research team that wants to, you know, you know, spin out and make a startup,
you know, you know, spin out and make a startup, then I think that the bridge bio,
or the bridge protocols, like, way of maybe timestamping will be important for that. So maybe,
maybe that's something you can include in the incentives as well is that, like, you know,
putting this negative data, if it's later used as like a jumping off point for a new,
it's later used as like a jumping off point for a new, a new therapeutic or something
like that could then be sort of like, you retroactively then have created like an innovation.
So you know, you get maybe a portion or an upstream sort of, you know, upstream incentives
for then providing this, like downstream solution.
Yeah, I think I absolutely love that because that is another big incentive
that would work out really well
because a lot of negative results is usually done
because not many people know what to do with it.
But if they can see that there is an avenue where people can build over it and the researcher who has provided the negative result gets credit, it would be a big incentive for them as well.
So that they never know at what point in time, if out of their negative results, they maybe develop like a big pharmaceutical agent
or you know something that really hits the market then they get a lot of incentives for themselves
so this is a very good thing yeah i think um you know what would be interesting first step i've been
thinking about this uh since i have like already thought about this
for quite a while um i think having an ai agent or like using ai tools to scrape these um you know
negative results or like your lab notebook so you just have to upload your um like sort of a digital lab notebook. And then this AI could then scrape information out of it
and then try to make sense of this data.
And probably there'll also come issue with confidentiality
regarding like, you know, what to scrape and what not to.
Some has to be uh kept secret because um at the end of the day
there is a competition and uh there are some venture backed in interest in uh all different
science projects some are like purely uh funded for the sake of uh you know exploring the field
and in terms to advance the research but in this in in
all these cases there is definitely a confidential information within these uh discarded data i would
say so i think dsci and building on web3 is a very wonderful use case because you can still you know
enter this trustless system without even trusting the bridge
protocol but just trusting the code uh you can come and contribute your data and no one cared
like you know go hack your data or anything um probably i think like you guys could uh start
focusing on a on a ai tool a simple agent which is capable of scraping this and making or building these knowledge graphs for
each of these negative data sets i think um bio protocol and bio agents they are working on
something similar to this uh probably you guys could also reach out to them um so yeah
that would be a really cool agent to have i'm. I'm worried about how agents are able to take things out of context these days, though.
you know, explanation or even a, you know, reason that they hypothesize that something
didn't go the way that they thought it would, as well as like the, you know, the full like
scraping of all the data, because I know sometimes things don't work in my lab because the mechanism
is different than I thought. And sometimes they don't work because I messed up. So maybe
taking in the like human, human error aspect of that too
would be important for that agent. Yes, definitely. Actually, I can give an example of my own
publication. So we were working on identifying like extracting compounds from cow urine, goat urine, elephant feces,
and just to find anti-tubercular agents.
And we almost screened about, say, 150 to 200 chemical compounds,
and out of which only 13 showed some sort of a positive results,
for positive results, especially when we did the ADMI studies.
especially when we did the ADMI studies.
So we literally published a paper with only those 13 compounds in name
because Taylor and Francis is the public publisher that we published with,
and they did not accept us mentioning that we screened 150 compounds.
They just wanted any sort of positive results to be included and that's all
we did now all of the 150 compounds that we did so much of a hard work in it's just lying there
in like all of our computers some of us have even deleted those files because it's of no use at this
point in time but I would have really loved to share this with the rest of the world saying these were
the chemical compounds that we kind of got out of those screenings. And if you know, if there's
some kind of a tweaking that can be done, or you know, if anyone wants to work on top of this,
it would have been wonderful because I, myself and my team were put in the resources, the money, and even the hard work to screen out these
compounds. And we just didn't get an avenue for us to showcase that, you know, these were the things
that we also did. So a lot of our hard work was also very much neglected. And the opportunity of
this to be used as a base so that the rest of the people don't have to screen these compounds once
again, was also gone. So there's someone in some other part of the people don't have to screen these compounds once again was
also gone. So there's someone in some other part of the world who's also screening the same compound
again, also finding the same negative result and still, you know, throwing it away. It's like a lot
of resources which are really getting wasted. Yeah, it's almost making me think of like a database you could have.
Maybe a part of it could be putting up bounties for like screens that haven't yet been done
in these negative compounds.
Like, oh, maybe we maybe it didn't work because we didn't do high enough concentration.
And then if somebody fills in with that higher concentration check, they can then be incentivized to sort of like
publish that to build on this data so then we have this like full scale um picture of things
that don't work and if they actually don't work or if they don't work because we didn't try enough
things yeah guys the deeper we dig i'm i'm getting this you know uh notion right like why is it so like why
is it like this right like why can't we build a system which is more transparent and sharing and
appreciates open science um because it's it's just like you know upside for everyone if we do that
right like there's no downside it's just gonna you know go faster you save resources but it is what it is i think that's why i think there's i
think there's still plenty of people that benefit from the current status quo um that you know would
be resistant to to change because of the potential loss that it could give them.
Yeah.
But I don't care about those people, so let's push it.
Definitely, yeah.
Let's push for D-Sci.
Let's put for more open science.
As, Carlin, you highlighted, right, like the young folks,
the folks who are coming into science, like who are getting fed up with the way science works, right?
Like the organizational hierarchical structures and certain disadvantages that exist within
the system.
Even with the talking about negative data, I think of first year grad students who are,
you know, given maybe a project and, you know, they're following up on something that worked
for someone even in the same lab and things aren't working. So they spend years and years,
you know, trying to troubleshoot and, you know, becoming maybe disenfranchised, like disenchanted
with like the science that they once thought that they really enjoyed by doing all these things that are doomed to fail from the start
um you know we saving those people i think could be a major contributor towards you know
the long like keeping more people more good people in in science as well yeah continue kio
yeah so i i i agree with you 100 right like it's a it's a good way to own for
onboard these young folks because we are all equally fed up with the system and
I think that's why we are all here discussing about this not any senior
professors who have who have like you know like reaping the benefits of the
current system they're they're not they're not going to join these
conversations because it's start
challenging their status quo so i agree i think the movement uh this movement design moment i think we should direct it towards the younger folks the new upcoming generation of scientists
and builders i think that's where our best hope is and we are part of that particular generation
uh super happy to see like a lot
of young folks vibing with the same set of you know beliefs uh i think that's the power of
internet i think uh now it's the season for uh the commons the house of commons to come up and
and build this new way of doing science on to you reno yeah definitely i mean i think we need to do what our um seniors weren't
able to do like you know things especially with this kind of an hierarchy in the environment
i think it's always good to build this for the future because uh it shouldn't be going on in
the same way that it is the way science is right now. And if it does, I think in a lot of ways we're going to get beaten.
And I think we need to take at least a group of people.
I'm so glad we're taking the responsibility to build something.
And as and when it grows big, I can see maybe a world where everyone is in DSI, everyone's with open, like, you know, this open scientific communication, everyone working together.
So unless and until there is someone who does the hard work to build this kind of a platform, I don't think there would be any revolution that comes about anyway.
So it's great that we have a community who's willing to do this
and we're all a part of it.
So we should be super proud of ourselves.
100%, yeah.
Let's build the hive mind.
I think that's what we all need,
like a hive mind for humanity,
which decides for the benefit of the humanity
and for the entire planet i would say
with that i i would also like you know request you all folks to um to to pitch dsai or to to
talk about dsai to your friends and colleagues uh because it's the fire that you guys carry within
will resonate and uh it's it's it's you guys you guys are the torch bearers you know including
me like we we have to spread this word and and also like when you do this like be self-critical
as well right like don't agree to anything and everything that desai kind of offers but also
being self-critical about certain things which we cannot you know afford at this point um yeah being self-critical
and and confident in what we are doing will definitely create a new beautiful world that
i'm looking forward to uh you uh to build with you guys keo you're probably the number one
dsai uh herald i think i you i of all the people that I know in D-Sci,
you're probably the one that is bringing it up the most
that like parties.
Any tips for us as we go out and try to, you know,
tell people more about what D-Sci is doing?
Yeah, 100%.
So we also did this sort of uh uh a brainstorming with reno uh
wait a second pen force has raised his hands i let me invite oh yeah i see you raise your hand
pen force come on up let me invite to speak yeah gave you the invite so yeah um we also discussed this like
we kind of tried it with uh reno uh we did some sort of role playing to see like how reno would
pitch this at a party uh i gave her a a personal story so i was in berlin last year i think exactly
personal story so I was in Berlin last year I think exactly one year ago for
DCI Berlin and then this is when I like I was very new to DCI I was at a park in
Berlin and I had this chance to you know meet a guy who is a music artist who is
like building the sort of psychedelic music and i pitched him uh side
and uh you know so to everyone there is a point that uh touches their life uh like science in
their life and and you need to find that point like and then build a story on top of that so if
you're meeting with the scientists like they might be going through all the problems as a scientist we went through.
And that's the angle I would pitch them, Desai, like, you know, look at this.
This is an alternative way of thinking about how science should happen.
And this is a new way to connect with citizens, right?
Like to understand what user needs and will for their needs.
and for citizens i would say right like healthcare is something biotic is something and science in
And for citizens, I would say, right, like healthcare is something, biotech is something,
general is something that shapes the future shapes our world that we live in and if we don't have
sort of a voice to say what we need and and how we feel about these inventions uh so then then
there's not going to be any conversation that's happening right so this sort of you know a personal direction to each of the people that i
meet that is what i take right uh giving them what is their like you know pain point that they might
be going through uh in real life and that could connect to dsai and then press in dsai as that
use case so either you are a scientist or else you are a citizen so you're not going to be someone something
beyond that right like so to everyone you can find this uh yeah a nice fit where you can spin
a story around that connect with them connect to dsai love it yes yes yes 100 um yeah pen force
i've been trying to invite you several times but unfortunately my man
uh cannot bring you up i don't know probably you could try rejoining but yeah you can write
in the comments it's i'll try to answer
There we go.
Hey, Pen Forrest.
I can hear you, but there is a lot of noise in the background.
Please go ahead.
Sorry, the audio was not clear for me uh how about you carlin yeah sorry pen force i
don't uh we can't really hear your voice very well buddy yeah we can we can take it offline and uh
we can discuss it in dm like if you have any uh questions for us or suggestions please leave
it in the comments and and also like if you if you have anything specific in mind that you want us to
discuss uh yeah we we can pick this up for the next week uh super happy to dig into it yeah
yeah and i think starting next week we're gonna to be on a different date um stay tuned for
the next um announcement i think we're just moving days um for when we'll be having this yeah yeah
uh please i think i can maybe talk now am i on the move yes i can hear you now.
I could hear you for a second, but then I could not. Sorry.
All right, guys. We are.
We are.
Amal, I just want to appreciate.
I don't know if anyone's listening or anybody can hear me.
Please just give me 100 if you can hear me
okay thank you i really wanted to part of this uh space like i said my reminder
to the students yesterday and i've been having issues because I went to somewhere
remote like that yeah for some work um I really enjoyed the beats that I had I was popping in
and going out hoping I'm gonna because of network. But I really enjoyed what I heard Ren was saying.
And Vexa joined her space this morning, also today.
I am always happy to join spaces that are about Gisa.
When I was going yesterday, I saw a space about Gisa.
And it was Vexa that I that I was posting I just up in I'm actually
having a background inside medical laboratory scientist actually in the making because see
we see for my final professional exam so I went up hoping to do a piece was kind of what what am I looking for here what am I doing here
I'm actually content right also so when I found this I I was so happy like then I found my place
I found my please I found way to do it so I and for the past few months I've been on this piece i really enjoy like this high is where we need to be because this is not just
about finance it's about transforming lives about making life better making it's not a place of
someone that is coming to us look for let's just fill up his pockets for someone that who is
passionate on making life better so actually i i love the idea of onboarding young scientists, not just
all the professionals, onboarding young scientists that will use the power of all these innovations
and all these AI and bring about new development that will help humanity. So I think personally, I actually teach this idea of mining with
a project that I was working with. So I now teach this project of why not we hold a seminar
because I'm still in my school and there are many other medical schools around here, around
where I stay. So holding a seminar, inviting students, also
inviting the lecturers themselves and all the scientists and the professors. When you
host these, you show the students that there is more that they can do than sitting in the
bench in the hospital or in a research lab. There's more to it in life there's more that they can do than just it and so I think putting
out like seminars and talk shows you understand we encourage more students to hop in and it will
make it will make science fun you understand to make science more lively so I really appreciate
I really love being in this place even for the little that I grabbed and I
would love
we should
be hosting
more
more
more thank you
for having
me here
thanks
Penforce
immaculate
vibes here
yeah great
vibes I think
that's a great
one to close
us out on
awesome
yeah thanks
Penforce for
joining this
reassures like the job we are
doing and and the kind of community that we are building uh i think we are on the right track and
and please spread spread this good vibes yeah i'm super happy to have you join the ecosystem yeah
keep it coming yeah all right uh thank you guys for tuning in to our dsai office hours today we are
thanks to everybody who came up and spoke as well we love seeing you thank you all and probably
we'll see you guys next week there's a different time point like we haven't fixed on anything yet
but we'll make sure the announcements
hit your timeline and so that you can prime your calendars for the next dsci office hours
if you have any more suggestions like what should we call the dsci office hours like we are
thinking about different titles so if you guys have any ideas please feel free to comment
in the post and any suggestions on topics that you might
have super happy to bring this up and also like invite experts if you guys have anything specific
in mind that you want to hear or listen about yeah right any cool projects bring those up as well
we'll happy we'll be happy to chat with them i'm i'm always down to learn about some new stuff going on in detail so let's do it let's learn together awesome all right guys bye bye stay safe stay tuned Thank you.
