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Enterprise on Ethereum Live Session #1 w/ @0xPolygon @Nethermind @metasigning
Recorded: March 20, 2026 Duration: 1:06:10Space Recording
Full Transcription
Well, I guess that's it where we are like live for our first like
enterprise on Ethereum Live by the EDA.
Thank you all of you for joining us today for that first streaming.
I'm very excited for like the panel that we have.
So we have like NetherMind, Polygon and Metasik today.
We're going to chat a little bit about institution.
The format is I'm going to introduce
you a little bit. Also want to give you an opportunity to present who you are, but also
then I have like a few questions, but fully exchanging about the current state of like the
market and what the institutional adoption looks from like the different angles that you would have.
I think you're all doing some very, very cool things for adoption, especially for enterprise adoption.
I think I will start with NetherMind, pretty exciting company.
For those who don't know, NetherMind is originally an execution client for Ethereum.
And so I would have to check, but it's probably like 20 to 30% of the Ethereum network is actually
running the software that Nezermine is building. It's been, but also like much more like Nitin is going to be able to share with us. Polygon has been also like a very long time, you know,
part of the Ethereum ecosystem. But now, like, I think the last month you have like a pretty
exciting news, you know, between like the acquisition of economy, like you,, I think the last month, you have pretty exciting news between the acquisition of CallMe.
I think today also with Apex and the partnership that you announced with Apex, I think those are pretty big.
So we'll have like Maria and Jamal to share more details about this.
And also special thanks for Luke tuning from New Zealand.
I don't know. It must be like 4am over there, something like that.
And with Metasic. But I think without any further ado, I will first give each of you
a little time if you could introduce yourself so anyone can know a little bit like who you
are, what's your role in the company, and if you want to add some few words about it.
I think I'll start with you, Luc. If you could introduce introduce you to and share what Metasig is doing. Thank you.
Sure. So I'm Luke, co-founder of Metasig, currently in New Zealand. The sun is actually only seven in the morning, so the sun will rise behind me.
We're building wallet infrastructure, and we're looking at that gap between retail and enterprise,
and how we can bring a solution to the market that's secure,
but at the same time can actually provide teams with the tools they need so they know what they're approving.
So I know we'll go into this a bit more, but that's why we're here.
Now, I think I met you maybe about a year ago. But that's why we're here. Thank you.
Now, I think I met you maybe about a year ago. It was in Denver, I think.
Yes.
And I remember you had at that time,
that pilot was, I think, the MAS,
that you've been part in.
I think it was pretty exciting.
You have a whole demo that actually quickly we can see online
of how your product is doing everything end to end uh i will share that after but i think it's a
super exciting thing to see uh nitin uh today uh i won't take any of your uh you know tax advices
um so thank you ed Edvan, for that.
And there's an internal joke,
which we can discuss a bit later.
My name is Nitin,
and I represent as a head of institution at NetherMind.
I recently joined the firm,
the DNA of NetherMind, as Edvan mentioned,
29% of the client is sort of from,
you know, is NetherMind client on the entire network.
But besides that, I think a lot of work has gone from the firm in areas of zero knowledge proof,
in privacy preservation, in working with DeFi protocols and bringing the post-quantum cryptography
to, you know, to market. And in the new sort of area, which is where I'm leading,
is bringing some of that technology in a regulated and compliant manner to institutions.
My background, I founded Blockchain Labs at IBM, this is back in 2014,
worked with capital markets, joined a straight street after IBM as a head of digital assets.
And the role there I had was to essentially what's cool today, which is stablecoin money market funds, is understand the mid- mid-office back-office processing and integration of that in existing financial system um and after which i
senior advisor to many large financial institutions and in the last four months i've been heads down
at nethermine to bring this amazing tech amazing engineering sort of work that nethermine has done
to institutions um so with that looking forward to conversation, and I'll pass it back on to you, Edwin. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, like NetherMind,
I started my career in crypto actually working for ChainSafe, and they do a consensus client
called like LoadStar. And so the work of those teams and how this is being distributed is quite
remarkable. That's something probably we'll go over on another streaming, but I think it's pretty fantastic. And I would say having you joining a team like Nezermine
is a beautiful and very strong signal about actually how Ethereum in general is really
going full-blown on institutional adoption. I know there've been a lot of sometime talks,
and I think it's probably more noise than anything on the social media related to the
new mandate of DEF.
But I think when you look at what organization like yours and some other, you know, like
even Polygon that we're going to go after, like the Ethereum ecosystem as a whole is
really moving toward like adoption.
And there is really like some things happening and coordination happening.
So, I thought you wanted to add something, Lytton, but... No, no, no. things happening and coordination happening.
I thought you wanted to add something, Nitin, but... No, no, no.
Otherwise, I'll pass on to you.
Maria also tuning in from New York.
We met a couple of months ago at a dinner that we were organizing in New York.
And I'm super happy to have you today.
If you could also share an introduction about your role at Polygon,
some few words about Polygon. And i'll pass on also to Jamal yeah thanks for that uh
nice to be here with everyone i'm Maria i'm uh head of investor relations and i work on market
structure stuff here at Polygon um my background is a trader starting on a repo desk and then moving quickly into energies and then HFT. If you've read the book Flash Boys, that's where I made my claim some time and then took it down with Mt. Gox and then have just been like a serial founder and contributor to some kind of frontier projects ever since.
for a few years, leading kind of their institutional strategy before joining Polygon to kind of help
everyone here reframe their business and take us into kind of this new era of
institutional money movement on chain. Okay. Wow. Thank you. Indeed. Also, I'll pass on to you,
Jamal. I know we were like to actually, we met. I met Jamal last year. We went to New
Orleans together, not for the Gumbo, but for the ACH conference, which is the
automatic caring house. I tried Gator Feet for the first time with you or something crazy.
Yes, yes. What is that? That was a pretty good
restaurant when we went like over there like that. But it was an experience. Yeah, no, it's good to
see you again. Thanks for having me. I'm Jamal. I lead our strategy team at Polygon. When I'm not
getting coffee and helping Maria spend her billions, I am helping our strategy team ideate on
cool products that we build, cool relationships that we have, some stuff that we do on the external side as well.
I've been at Hong Kong actually just about the same time as Maria for about a year.
Before this, I was one of the first employees at Bridge, helped join before they launched their
product and got them off the ground to over a billion in TPV and to deal with Stripe.
Before that was at a company called Wire, which was one of the first fiat on-ramps in the space, started in 2012. It was there for about four years before we
ended up selling that business as well. Before that was at Square and Cash App leading some of
the debit card projects, more on and off ramps into the Cash App ecosystem, but a little bit on
the crypto treasury product. And then before that was the
head of BD at a company called BitPay from 2016 to 2020, where I launched the first crypto debit
card ever with Visa, launched the first MasterCard debit card again in 2019, got some of the earliest
crypto licenses, worked in some of the largest enterprise crypto deals, especially involving
cross-border payments and stable coins early on. Yeah, definitely big crypto payments started.
I will say that my very first conversation with Jamal,
rather confrontational and about agentic commerce,
and we can get into that at some point today.
100% true.
Yeah, 100%.
In Cabo, Mexico, which was a great place to do it.
But yeah.
I mean, agentic is a pretty hot topic right now.
Like I was in San Francisco last week for like the ESF
and they were doing like use case lab.
And there is definitely like a lot of things going on.
I think pretty exciting around like agentic.
And probably I'm curious to see like how this is gonna evolve,
you know, like the connection between the ecosystem and agent payment.
I think it's going to be like a lot of new businesses or new
to actually do stuff.
Yeah, I agree.
Jamal's on the other side of this argument, so we'll get into all of it.
I'm just waiting to see more traction in use cases.
I'm very bullish long term for sure.
We are pro-gent long-term for sure. But we're pro-gent to commerce for sure.
I guess maybe I'll start with you, like since we're on Polygon,
I think for the last three months,
like you have some pretty big news.
And so you've been always very like at the forefront,
I think of like everything institutional base, you know,
your acquire, I think Coin.me already Januarybased. You acquired, I think, CoinMe already in January, which has
like 48 payments, networking in 48 states in the US, right?
Yes.
Today, you announced a collaboration with APEX and ERC3643. I'll be curious to have your
outlook on the current state of adoption and how enterprise institutions are looking,
you know, at adoption in the Ethereum ecosystem.
Yeah, I think the APEX stuff is really exciting.
Maybe, I don't know, Maria, if you wanna start with that,
or I could start with Coin.me.
Yeah, no, I'll start with APEX,
cause I think there's like a lot to get in on here.
Look, I think start with APEX because I think there's like a lot to get in on here. Look, I think the reality is that there is broad scale interest to moving kind of capital assets and all sorts of stuff on chain.
Like we've had this conversation. Everyone's aware. We don't have to keep validating that point.
That's just fact now. Right. But the truth is it's broken. Right.
right? But the truth is, it's broken, right? The more institutions come on chain, the more
liquidity gets fragmented, the more kind of the tech stack gets fragmented. You know, we've all
been, you know, this whole group has been in technology for a long time. So we've seen kind
of different how different operating systems cannot interact with each other. And it becomes
a bit of a mess, right? And so, you know, our viewpoint is that there has to be a clear interop layer.
So everything can be consistently connected across like different fragmented liquidity pools, different assets, pools, different issuer pools, things like this.
And once that fragmented once that fragmentation or that mosaic kind of comes together, you can then actually start monetizing, right?
Like moving assets from one ecosystem to the other and then collateralizing them and leveraging them and things like this.
And you can actually have an economy that functions, not just these like piecemeal onesie twosies that are coming to market.
that are coming to market.
So that's what we're trying to do here with our partnership with Tokeny and Apex to really
bring T-Rex chain to market.
We are going to be the operating system for monetization for RWA, period, right?
All of the other stuff that people are doing, it all should exist and will continue to exist.
But to the extent that they want to actually make our WAs efficient and make
them flow and capital flow, T-Rex is kind of your home base.
So partnering with APAC upfront was a key part of this narrative.
They're managing over 3.5 trillion in asset service.
As those assets become on chain, it doesn't become like a race for TVL.
Cause I think that's like been proven that it doesn't become like a race for TVL. Because I think that's
been proven that it doesn't really move the needle in the long run TVL chasing. I think
what moves the chasing is actually liquidity and assets on chain. And so that's what we're
targeting. And we're coming out of gates really strong with that, with this T-Rex project.
And I guess to piggyback off that, as like, you see this kind of like middle layer forming
out is like T-Rex and other maybe CDK projects and maybe other Polygon based projects, building
this like new financial operating system in the middle. We have obviously a high throughput layer
underneath it with Polygon as the network that powers it with the technology and the scalable
infrastructure.
The one thing that we noticed we needed was regulated on and off ramps to that ecosystem.
You can have the best playground in the world.
And if you can't get people in and out of that ecosystem really, really effectively,
then you're not going to get adoption and you're not going to get usage.
So to that extent, we were looking in the market for a solution that covered all of the global payments infrastructures that we wanted and we wanted to bring it in house.
And we really found that there was no global provider.
And then maybe about six months ago, maybe probably about six to eight months ago, we realized that this just needs to be built in house.
So we looked in the market. We looked at companies that we had a partnership with already.
We found CoinMe, which has been around since 2012, one of the oldest payment partners in
the space.
We've spent the last decade building out all of the regulatory guts that you need to be
able to operate this business, as well as the payment rails.
Not only institutional grade payment rails, like what Maria and T-Rex and some of these
other institutional partners need, like with wire transfers that are very cost-effective that can be
global that can settle very quickly that settle to named accounts that are very
effectively spun up like not only that institutional grade infrastructure but
also like something for the retail folks right so we also have the ability to
accept cards very effectively very quickly we have cash locations and over
50,000 locations it's really like this new financial operating system that Maria and team and all of us are working on should be available to the common person as well.
So we want to be able to open up all those rails and leave that to this like next generation infrastructure building that is truly enterprise grade, but is democratized to everyone that's building on it.
We also did another acquisition, by the way so we did acquire coin me but we also acquired a company called sequence that provides some of the best in class wall and infrastructure and cross-chain interoperability
that we need to be able to service this as well because we i mean t-rex is the first example of
this but like we believe the future is going to be multi-chain we believe all the chains that you
see today have a lot of value and they're going to be purpose-built and driven to specific niches
and we want to support interop and rails and infrastructure across all
wow that's something super exciting because i'd say like it's i feel like they've been like a very
a switch in the narrative you know like where like really you've been championing like that
multi-chain approach at polygon for a couple of months i think it's super exciting you know i was
talking also some other people at uh say hey we want to make the ecosystem win and how we can run together.
And I think that's pretty, pretty exciting. I was thinking like, look, actually, you know, shaking your head.
And I remember when I when I met you like a year ago, what I really loved about Metasig is really like having that completely vertical, you know, approach where where you really handle everything, which I feel is also a little bit similar with what Polygon is at a different scale you know with acquisition and building you know like the whole the whole stack
so i'm curious you know like after what they said there is something also like that what i inspire
you yeah i definitely build on that fragmented um challenge that's in the market and what we
we did so we had a couple of basically we said how do teams work in crypto and we kind
of really just did a lot of deep dives with treasuries and just just how they do it today
and i think everyone can probably say there's some challenges there um what we found generally was a
number of people and signers in a group referred to the technical person now that that obviously
has risk so we we really went to the drawing board and
then we said, well, how do teams transfer Bitcoin? Because anyone with the technical knowledge knows
that doing any multi-sigs with Bitcoin is, let's just say, is an intimate process and it's really
just not good enough. So what we did is we went right back to the cryptography and we said,
So what we did is we went right back to the cryptography and we said, can we just have one place to do everything?
Can we remove all the servers from the process?
And then can we actually put it in a way that all the signers in a group actually know what they're doing?
So if I'm, you know, so my background, I'm a carded accountant, right?
I want to know what I'm, I'm moving an asset from A to B. I want to know what I'm moving an asset from A to B.
I want to know what I'm doing.
I don't want to see zeros.
I don't want to see ones.
I want to see I'm transferring an asset.
Where is it going from?
And where is it going to?
That's all I want to see as an approver.
So that was our challenge.
And what it took is three years of writing cryptography, three years of people telling us their problems, and then really getting to the point where all someone wants is one place to do this, but they also want to make sure that it's very secure.
So we've really got to a point where, and also the other challenge is they don't want to wait too long.
So if I'm going to set up a new account, I don't want to wait weeks. I want it to be done generally in hours, maybe even in minutes.
So we got into this frame of how do crypto teams work today
and how will they work tomorrow?
And it really is around, we've come to the point is they want to make sure
that it's done securely and that they don't do something wrong.
Everyone's got this absolute fear of accidentally transferring something wrong.
And as the zeros go up, the fear goes up.
And that's just, and I have that myself.
So that's really what we put a lot of time in.
I won't go too deep, but the agentic, absolutely.
We believe that it can be done securely.
And that's something that we're building into our product
and the other part that we are actually looking at is we also need secure encrypted messaging
in our apps because a lot of people are transferring assets from a to b and putting all the detail in telegram right so the question i asked actually and I don't know, and we've got some really great
people here is, why don't we have encrypted messaging in our wallet stacks? And the issue
is, and please correct me, it's because of the cryptography. So we've built that in because
we've built the stack and we've had the architecture. So basically, my belief is the issue that we've got, one of the issues,
is that the architecture of what we've created many years ago doesn't fit what we need today.
So we just need to change that slightly, make it more secure, make it post-quantum.
And then as we bring this to market, we'll start to get more adoption.
Because I think we all want more adoption. And we want people to come to the network, but we also want them to come to the
network securely. So that's really been our North star of what we've been building at Metasig.
Okay. Wow. And well, I guess, and you have a product, like, is this accessible for everyone
also like Metasig? Like, so we're in our private yeah private
beta everyone yeah so basically we're we're on mainnet private beta and we we're playing with
it now uh people are moving around bitcoin because bitcoin's the hardest thing i mean
from a when i work with the engineering team if i want to give them pain i tell them hey can you um
can you do a multi-sig for bitcoin? And by the way, can you abstract everything away
so we don't want gas fees?
Because what enterprise wants gas fees?
They don't.
They just don't want gas fees.
So, and then, oh, well, can we change the Bitcoin amount?
And then as soon as you go to someone that's on the tech level,
they'll just kind of want to throw something at you
when you ask for these type of things.
So we've gone through this pain around um you know looking at some of the bitcoin
stack because everyone knows as as a first as a first kind of beachhead and then dropping into
evm obviously is is quite quite good and also we have the ability to deploy private chains as well
so we've got to the point where we knew
that if we need to add a new chain to our product,
it should only take days.
Because if it takes any longer, business doesn't,
enterprise won't deal with that.
And coming from my, if I'm sitting on the other side
of a client and they're saying, I've got three chains,
I need you to add this because we've got this business reason.
If I come back to them and say, yeah, there there'll be three months that's not going to work so that's something that we built
into the architecture doing this wow okay i guess i i i i'm pretty sure you have a lot to say
well i do and i think luke you're spot on i think and i wrote a bunch of articles in this topic
where the wallet shared is mindshare
and we begin to build some web2web3
narratives and the fact
that messaging, you know, as treated
as a separate protocol, which in financial system,
if you look at the entire financial system, runs
on messaging protocols, right?
All the stuff that we do with ISO 20022,
all the old MT standards,
there are whole back office systems,
which is essentially what I think Maria, you know,
had a brilliant description of this.
Essentially building this compliant layer
that they're looking into is essentially
the back office function of the fund accounting,
administration, everything else.
These are all driven by messaging.
So when you bring up this narrative around the walleting,
which was primarily an accounting construct
and ownership construct
to transform that enterprise perspective.
Messaging was implied in that cases,
but so there's a little mismatch
between Web2 and Web3 narratives
in this context.
But I'll give one perspective,
which I think to build upon
what Jamal and Maria mentioned,
which I think is, you know,
brilliant work, guys.
I think I've been at this now
for over a decade where the industry pays a reconciliation tax. The reason why
industry is slow in transferring asset is because there's a slew of market structure,
and eventually it converges into the real ownership rights. So if the moment you place a trade,
and the trade execution happens, and eventually ownership changes, that entire process goes
through a complex set of financial market infrastructure.
The primary transmission mechanism is market infrastructure.
This is how we transmit our messaging systems.
And when we bring something like blockchain to that party, you're really modernizing the
transmission mechanism to near real time vehicles.
And so at that point, the old systems, the old market participants,
which make, which make up the market structure still has to keep up with that synchronization
of those, you know, of this movement of assets. So this reconciliation tax that we pay is where
my focus has been is what can we do? And blockchains are ledgers, but they're not accounting systems.
Right. And so I think the work that, you know, that, that Polygon has done recently, or at least this announcement is to me, a vehicle to say,
can I do real-time realization of the change in ownership, which today has to wait till end of day
process to, to reconcile. And so at Nethermind, like my primary focus institution has been,
and I recently published a paper on this topic, is what can
regulated financial institutions do to safely engage with public infrastructures, right? So
we have fundamentally changed the way we process transactions from a core banking, core equity
systems to blockchain systems. And if blockchain systems became the transaction system in this
public infrastructure, so things like legal finality, like this transaction finality, it's a
legal term that industry has to come to term with. And more importantly, in public infrastructure,
you have less control, which the FFIEC, the IOSCOS, and the entire global regulatory bodies have
set forth a standard. And we have to adapt to that standard. And so what we are trying to bring
us from institutional perspective is, what can institutions do to engage and to that point
luke using some of the technical elements that you're talking about uh bring that to bear bring
that to bear in terms of the impeding elements around post-quantum typography which is a generic
problem not just a blockchain problem in fact it's a bigger problem in the existing financial system
and then eventually taking some of this stuff that mar Maria and Jamal talked about is integrating with this as a compliance sort of coordination layer, which is what the attempt has been in this recent announcement from what they've done.
I think all this is a signal that we are collectively trying to serve the industry to bring those transactions, the institutional, the 600 trillion plus economic imperative that's globally there to bring them on chain in a safe compliant
manner I'll pause here Edouane um at the risk of not just having you know hogging hogging the time
and pass it back on receive that I love listening to you and please guys I want this to be like uh
we're not in the same room having a coffee or like some some drinks but I want you to feel free like
to actually exchange with each other because I'm pretty sure you can have some questions and don't feel like I have to hold.
I'm just here to set up the stage, make everyone chat, but I think you have a lot of very interesting
things to set up.
Just feel free to jump in.
I'm very...
I have a question for you, though, Nitin, because I think in regards to what Luke and
Maria and Jamal have been saying, I'm curious, what's the
place of a protocol, you know, as NetherMind into that race of adoption?
Yeah, that's a great...
It's historically very... it doesn't have the culture of monetization and institutional
adoption.
So I'm curious how you approach this like being part of NetherMind.
I would imagine that protocols were all about modernization.
At the end of the day, every protocol,
whether it's data variability layer or coordination layer
or, you know, any layer was all about modernization.
But there are a few things, right?
One is we provide access from a NetherMind client perspective
to the blockchain infrastructure.
So there's sequencing,
there's a whole way of how we process transaction,
how this is again in the theme of submitting transaction,
eventually going through the, you know,
the proposal builder sort of model that goes through it.
From institution perspective, well, all that is great
because at the end of the day,
using the public infrastructure has 80% cost reduction.
I did this experiment in...
Am I still in the air?
You're back, you're back.
Okay, got it.
And so we did this work where you could build the same infrastructure
in this permission world.
I think the permission private debate is over,
but building the same infrastructure that we have today,
it's about 80% more expensive than using public infrastructure, both in terms of software development, software deployment. And so in that
context, that's attractive. But if I submit transactions, I still want to have control in
who can validate that. So we have OFAC, we have sanctions. And so the ability for us to be able
to include those transactions is only allowing certain entities, whether it's institutional
clients, to validate transactions
is something that sequences can control and and should control at some level to adhere to you know
if we want all the 600 trillion dollars worth of assets to come on chain and resulting a transaction
that's been processed and so i believe that some of the work we're doing in that context privacy
preservation we did some recent work uh Stellar, which is essentially the
thesis of moving an asset versus keeping an asset in one chain and just moving its stage
in another chain without breaking the integrity of the asset. So we did this whole thing with
zoologic proof. We put the proof onto one chain to say the asset exists, whether it's collateral
management or collateral locking. Those are use cases that are becoming much more relevant because
it's $25 trillion of collateral exchanges hands on a daily basis.
And so that's where I think NetherMind can play a role of not just bringing the prowess
of technology and what we have done in building protocol.
Can we then pull institutional wrap around it?
Can we build, in my context, institutional DeFi protocols?
I think where you touched upon this early on is whatever BlackRock has done with Uniswap X
and bringing Biddle to market, can we now put an institutional wrapper and engage in
collateral management, engage in borrowing and lending and collateral management elements
in the public sphere while adhering to all the regulatory aspects of what the industry
expects from us?
I'll kind of just add to this because this is why this space is so exciting to me personally,
right?
Is that I didn't grow up here, right?
I didn't grow up in like US capital markets.
I grew up in, you know, like an emerging market.
And in that emerging market, people had very successful businesses, including my own family.
people had very successful businesses, including my own family. And their challenge was not that,
hey, I need to get my business now listed in a US exchange or any exchange. They had access to
different stock exchanges around the world, right? The challenge was that in America,
businesses have access to leverage capital and credit so they can scale their businesses, right?
Like that is the thing that's missing.
And so if I can take kind of my assets and then put them on chain into like a really nice like credit vault and like, you know, borrow against it, that's really a big unlock for me. The issuance part, the thing that
everyone else has been kind of working on for the last like decade that hasn't really moved the
needle significantly is not really a big unlock for emerging markets. It definitely solves a lot
of the settlement woes, Nitin, to your point, like the back office stuff, because like that's
like such a big freaking mess. But from a front office perspective, it didn't really do
anything. It didn't change anything, which is why we haven't seen the liquidity flows and the
secondary movement that we all anticipated was going to happen is because that part wasn't
really broken. It was the back office that was broken that became more efficient. We've seen
that. That's done. Now. How do we actually create an
economic flywheel on the front office? And that is a completely different problem set. That is
nothing to do with issuance. Right. So that's why like this DeFi unlock becomes super exciting for
me, particularly with RWAs. Like if you could borrow against your treasuries and I'm like
teeing that up for Jamal because he has a whole thing on this. But like if you could borrow against your treasuries and I'm like teeing that up for Jamal because he has a whole thing on this. But like if you could borrow against your treasuries as a company, you can
actually take assets that are just like kind of at rest typically and give them
some juice, like give them a purpose.
Right. Something that like we like to say at Polygon a lot is that your your
money, your assets get superpowers when they go on chain
right like that is like something that's very fundamental to what we're trying to do in the
long tail and i think people are missing the point by just thinking about issuance jamal
no i mean i think you said it well uh like i like the the part that attracted me to the chain in the
first place is the part that i think that we haven't even gotten to, which is how do you like fully automate all financial services?
Like the programmability of money has never really been explored at depth yet, if you ask me.
Like getting to stable coins and doing simple transfers is like the first step.
And then to Maria's point, like we're doing a little bit more on the trading and the institutional side.
But I think that we are scratching the surface as far as what is truly possible when you can fully automate all aspects of your money.
And I think that the fact that the code is touching the money itself is where things get really crazy.
To Mario's point, yield and flight to subsidize things like FX or other costs, right? Or like being able to do
instant settlements just because you can tie in different like liquidity sources and also
different yield sources to subsidize different lending costs or whatever.
I'll say one thing that just for like over a decade, this program, the liquidity concept
from this perspective. And I think one thing which I learned and this is you know Maria you came from Ripple, Ripple acquired G-TREASURY. I think it's the velocity of money
as we all talk about instant or near real-time settlement. I don't think the treasury and cash
management risk models are designed to absorb and understand the risk of the real-time settlement
and that's an impediment for the adoption
of this program of liquidity in many cases,
or what we call liquidity engineering.
So it's still tied to the financial market infrastructure,
the clearing, the CSDs and CCPs,
where the liquidity sort of aggregates.
But I think the bigger challenge is ability
for these pressure management systems to keep up
this 24 seven and lost your money.
I'd love to get your perspective on that because it's not like the industry doesn't know.
I don't think industry has a way to have a risk model that they can adopt,
which means things like stop payments and make sure they have adequate liquidity
for short-term commitments.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
I think trying to go too broad too quickly will lead to a very explosive outcome for sure.
But I do think that there are very, very strong niches where there's just like, I mean, sorry for saying this, but stupidity in the way that the current market is set up or the current infrastructure is set up.
And that has led to an opportunity for someone to come in and financially monetize that gap but even
financially monetizing that gap allows for like a better experience so like i'll give you an example
like it is uh it is like in my opinion not smart to like uh or not smart that like you know uh
coinbase is processing let's say i don't know 10 million dollars of a card on friday and they don't receive their settlement until monday just because they're relying on
archaic infrastructure that like requires manual reporting and bank hours and all this other stuff
and and and yes i want that whole infrastructure to change yes i think that the blockchain is a
purpose-built financial infrastructure there's like better optimized for that that whole thing
and i think that's the long-term solution but we we are a ways away from that. And in that gap, there's just an interesting
intersection of how do we plug in just like really, really intelligent chain infrastructure
to solve that gap temporarily. So like a couple ideas. Number one, there is the opportunity to do
instant settlements and instant lending on the chain itself. So imagine on Coinbase,
I process $10 million in my card processing on a Friday. I receive, or I'm expected to receive
a $10 million wire from the Visa MasterCard network, from my acquire or whatever on Monday.
There's no reason why I can't go to the on-chain markets, be able to tokenize my settlement that
I'm receiving on Monday, be able to give someone
else the opportunity to lend me against that tokenized infrastructure and earn money off me
paying a small amount, a democratized amount, you receive that settlement on a Saturday at 2am or
whenever or overnight or on a holiday when the bank isn't working. That level of programmability
and that level of intelligent blockchain infrastructure
leveraging is us being creative about,
and creative and pragmatic about knowing
when Visa and MasterCard are gonna change their systems
to a blockchain-based system.
And I'm not gonna hold my breath for that just quite yet.
But how do we use the chain and some of the existing capital
and infrastructure on the chain already today to make yield for investors right like because in my opinion visa
and mastercard settling on a monday is a very very safe counterparty uh whereas like uh you know that's
a very lucrative opportunity of yield uh so anyway the point i'm trying to make generally speaking is
that there's all this like this this programmable infrastructure at our disposal
and capital and investors.
And you have this financial ecosystem building, and we are just scratching the surface on
how to intelligently deploy that in payments-related and markets-related pain points while things
get better on a longer macro scale to solve people's pain points today and bring this
to solve people's pain points today and bring this access to people where they need it today.
access to people where they need it today.
Jamal, if you and Maria had an argument on agent e-commerce, just wait till we talk about agent
e-commerce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not ready for that. Look, I think the thing is, like,
risk management's pretty shit off chain too, right? So So like, for someone to sit there
and be like,
hey,
like you can't program
whatever,
you know,
KYC,
AML efficiently.
And so it's,
it's true.
You can't,
right?
Like not,
not today.
But,
but the truth is like
the pace of innovation
is tremendous
and we're going to get there.
Right.
And,
and the off chain way,
like the traditional finance
way is completely shit. Like I'm not forget like macro capital markets flow. Like how many times
I've had a trade break or like, you know, a D and D or some shit like that because like I got like
someone fat fingered their, their trading ID on the other side, like that stuff happens. But even in a commerce perspective, like it's 2026 fraud fraud is at an all time high.
Right. The truth is like there is no way like traditional payment providers can keep up with the rate at which like people who are trying to be deviant in this space are really moving.
Right. Like they just can't keep up. There's like fraudulent payments are costing the
industry billions of dollars, right?
We have like stats on this that we talk about every day to our customers.
And the truth is it becomes much more efficient to monitor those breaks on
on-chain, right? And that's just the fact of it. So you can have like nuanced arguments
chain, right? And that's just the fact of it.
about kind of the process in which that risk is managed, but programming that risk management
makes it 10x more efficient than relying on a team of 30,000 people that are sitting all around
the world that are reacting to things when they feel like it in between bathroom breaks and coffee
breaks and all this shit, right? Like it's a broken system and we're fixing it look what's your perspective on that
yeah no look it's really it's interesting right like i like this because like one of the things
that our big actually one of our big whys is is security like we we started metasig because
people were coming to us and they were losing money on chain
right not saying it again to maria's point it's there's fraud on on both off and on but where we
got to is first off the tech should be able to protect the user as much as it can i'm not saying
it's 100 but we you know we as innovators can get better at providing tech that really helps users not make stupid mistakes, right?
Because, you know, it happens.
The other side is just understanding in the infrastructure, like, again,
like when, Jamal, you're talking about opportunities with finance to, you know,
find gaps where you can generate, you know, put your assets to work.
It's the same thing with security.
Where are the gaps in the security when we're signing and moving assets and doing just doing stuff with assets on chain so i i
really believe that um yes i completely agree with maria's point you can actually identify where it's
going and you can see what's happening on a forward standpoint but also you know blind signing
why i don't i just don't know why we're doing that today. It's crazy.
It does my head in.
The other part is, and no offense to hardware wallets, but what the F?
I don't know if I can say to somebody who's moving a million dollars on a hardware wallet,
do you know what you're doing?
I mean, do you know how to decrypt that code that hash code so absolutely not so so then
then you're going to ask yourself well why are we using them
you know and then you go okay well i'm going to go on a big enterprise platform
i'm going to go isn't that like a retail it's like like a hardware wallet in no institution
today like but i'm like to okay yeah yeah to her point right are using hardware wallets on the multi-six yeah i feel like i i
hear of institutions hearing hardware so okay institution has a hedge fund versus institution
versus bank of new york melton i don't think so oh yeah yeah yeah you know 11 000 institutions
with coinbase they're not like four people who hedge funds they're not classified institutions
but there's no institution that i know of that the one we really want to work as part of the market structure
are using hardware wallets they are using it to sign they're not using it to hold assets so sorry
i had to like so if we we talk about signing and approving then that that and that's to me
the same thing right like i'm still approving something and i'll move it from a to b but look then again yep my ask was more towards the not just the
notion of signing or moving an asset it was more towards maria's point of the systemic risk so
every financial institution has a risk model framework every financial institution has a
three lines of defense there are technology risk
operational risk financial risks and there are all these different risks which is like an accordion
it's an absorption mechanism and as much as we see the fraud as maria talks about there's equal
amount of fraud in crypto land as well it's the risk systems are quite good they're old they're
archaic i get it but i'm and i'm not defending stratify in general i've seen that system
in in in action uh you know from the from a perspective of of how it's done yes it's designed
this that system is designed on this older what they call batch relay system which takes time to
catch up but it's still there my question was if he's distilled the entire risk model framework into a signing ceremony
then i think we're not doing we're doing disservice to the larger financial system that's my point
the other the other point to that then to build on it is if the risk model is so good or if it's
adequate then why are we here having this conversation I think it's more I didn't say
that's adequate I said it's right for the system that have been has been evolved over 100 years
my point is we need to build a newer risk model to the stuff that Maria and Jamal are talking about
exactly I absolutely agree on that too yeah that's what I mean yeah it's it's so usually
like I think this conversation about compliance are interesting because it's it's so usually like i think this conversation about compliance are interesting
because it's it's not about like we can prove something we can deliver the compliance required
it's just like the mental model is different and to to follow up on what jamal said if we want to
be able to be a merchant and at the moment that i pay with my credit card on my payment you can
actually have the money like second later, buy your T bill and
make that working capital immediately, which is I think something Square has been trying to do for
a couple of years. This requires a new mental model when you do that on chain. And I think
first, how we explain to a compliance officer or to risk manager how this is actually managed
without having to tell them
like um oh you need to take a class on cryptography and learning you know like uh spending like five
years in in a in blockchain like we're all like or 10 years like we all have done and i think we've
been also used to talk to engine like within an engineering space and how we can bring that
conversation to to those people that are actually not technical, not
part of the industry.
I think that's going to be the unlock.
And actually, I'm curious to see how you handle that meeting, because you have a lot
of workshops with those.
You were in New York.
I do 8-hour workshops on these things now, to your point.
And I'll tell you simple things, right?
Like FFIC and US Treasury, they have very specific guidelines on software supply chains and our software updates right which means that if you're
financial institutions you have to follow those guidelines because otherwise you have compliance
risk right so in that context the element of like there's a presidential order during binding
administration to say every every library that you're uh that you're including in your infrastructure has to be accounted for.
So if there's a breach in any of those libraries, we know the service requirements as a simple sort of method.
So what we ended up doing, in other mind, we said, okay, fine, if that's the case, if we want to achieve the vision that Maria and Jamal are crafting for us, and Luke, you're working towards providing this this super secure libraries can we not do
formal verification to know that this is the software that we agreed upon and this is often
it's running so we are not we are sort of closing the gap of that software so there's a that's one
example of how do we address that another example is can we use zero large proof in an economic
manner and using the list you know cryptographiesies that come in protecting that post-quantum, you know,
infrastructure.
So some of these things are there to give you the baseline infrastructure,
which is secure, resilient,
so that Jamal and Maria can do their thing.
If they want to connect a transfer agency to a secondary market for recording
ownership, the moment that happens, for us to enable the market for recording ownership the moment that happens for us to
enable the compression of those market structure you need to have the resilient infrastructure
that's my point and that's the workshop i mean i've done this for like six to eight hours it's
quite revealing and it's exhausting too because there's just too much going on there but uh
but i mean i i was here i agree i uh i don't want you guys to think that we think, or maybe I think, that there isn't any value in traditional systems and how things have been done.
We would be idiots to not try to take over the 100 years of learnings that have been done over the last 100 years.
And actually, that's why we are getting into the realm of regulated financial services, because we think there's a tremendous value in the regulated space just alongside the blockchain space. But we think
it's a slow, I'll use the word leakage, which probably doesn't have the right connotation here.
It's like a slow leakage of like, let's tap into both realms and take advantage of both financial
systems, risk systems, AML systems, whatever system you want to talk, take advantage of those
systems where it makes sense, but like spill that old archaic infrastructure, which you agree is old
archaic and, you know, could be optimized. You know, take that and put it on supercharged rails,
right? Like Maria talked about earlier, we think the blockchain is a superpower. Like it's literally
a superpower for not only finances, but also financial infrastructure. So I agree that
we shouldn't like throw out the old playbook. We should like take that. I mean, that's what every
financial services iteration in history has always done, right? Like Venmo and Cash App
didn't like say F Visa. They built a new system on Visa and they took advantage of all that
infrastructure and they expanded it. And I think now you see quite a bit more efficiencies on the Venmo and Cash App layers that sit
on top of Visa and MasterCard, which allow people to move money much more freely than
they did before and then settle to Visa and MasterCard when they need to.
Venmo is kind of a layer too, if you want to call it that.
Venmo is like we're going back and forth, we're sending money, it's hyper optimized,
it's much, much faster and much more efficient than Visa. And then when we want to, we're going back and forth. We're sending money. It's hyper-optimized.
It's much, much faster and much more efficient than Visa.
And then when we want to, we settle to our bank accounts or we on-lay it from our bank accounts.
That same infrastructure is being applied to the blockchain side.
There's no reason why we shouldn't take advantage of the old systems where it is appropriate.
I just think it's not as much as we think.
I think that slowly over over time we'll be taking
less and less and less and less infrastructure from these old systems because we'll take those
best practices we'll take those like the smart learnings and insights and moving it over to this
new paradigm this new purpose-built financial operating system that has given us the tools to
do this at a scale that's never been seen before like it is doubted undoubted that like the tools
that the blockchain provides allows you to do everything end to end from a financial system better. It's
just taking a while for us to set up the bearings and the infrastructure, the companies,
the technology to get us to be in the same position, but it is undoubtedly a better
purpose-built system for what we are trying to do. I'll say one thing on that. Go ahead.
purpose-built system for what we are trying to do.
I think I'll say one on that. Go ahead. So one thing all of us like Luke, Maria, Jamal,
we are selling to institutions, which means we have to have a sense of humility,
appreciation of what they have. At the end of the day, whatever announcements you have made today
is really to get institutions onto that alliance. But at Nevermind, we did this thing which makes it
easy to explain all this complex conversation because this can get really complicated.
There are three I's.
One is the infrastructure, which is essentially what we're building and onboarding clients and moving them safely to launch in.
What Luke is building is making sure that it's further secure in terms of how we process transactions, which is signature-based transaction processing.
Second thing is instrument, which is a token is a token is a token,
but there's a micro market structure for every token.
So what you have done, the non-spend with Apex,
essentially is to amalgamate that layer to say,
can I move the assets in a meaningful way
in the right ledgers for recording systems?
And the last I is insights,
which is if velocity facets improve,
then you can't obviously use the old risk models.
You have to rely on AI because AI has the ability to look into mempools,
look into the transaction pipelines, look into existing.
So those three eyes give us a clean way to compartmentalize all the
combination we're having, which helps us explain to financial institutions.
I'll shut up now, but that's just high level.
You know, I think Nitin, after what you just said, Jamal, it's like there is a quote, I mean,
I'm taking a quote like Nadine Shakar said something at Cybos with Sergey last year,
said, it's going to take us a while before in code we trust. We believe this is going to happen,
but it's going to take a while because we're in the business of mitigating risk and we have like
a lot of control and a lot of safety that we need to apply it's going to happen at a certain point
but it's just going to take some time and i think exactly what you said and i think right now it's
the most exciting moment because we're really switching from the pure everyone can put some
asset on chain if i may say so but how are you gonna start making money and actually enabling
you know like business to be done and i think that's what why you started like when you started
maria and jamal saying this and i think that's that's where we are right now in the ecosystem
and that's super exciting and uh i guess uh that makes me think a little bit of like what happened
with uh with av like you know uh last week and and uh and the 50 million swap uh i'm wondering
you know when we talk about connecting you know traditional finance to defy um how you how you
look into this and and what this what this event like would say like uh inspire as a comment
i mean i don't know i feel like we are like if you take a look at financial services and how long it takes to build out a system that truly people trust, like we are so early in this like journey.
And I think to your point, like we still don't have some of the protections and the infrastructure in place to prevent some of these even most basic things.
most basic things. Now, I think we're figuring it out. I'll say that we're moving at a much
Now, I think like, you know, we're figuring it out.
faster pace than any other financial services revolution in history. The first debit card
or credit card, whatever you want to call it, was issued in 1966. My mom is writing paper.
My mom gave me cash today. I saw her today for lunch. We're in the digital age and my mom is
giving me physical cash. Anyway,, like I think we are still
so early, like it takes over 50 years for people to get to in code we trust, which I love, by the
way. I love that phrase. I think that's perfect. But yeah, I think we will get to that point. I
think like we, I'll say all of us are kind of like part of this like new generation, but like we are
all now getting comfortable with the idea of putting money on like plastic putting
money in and let's say we graduated from in paper we trust in plastic we trust and we're getting to
in code we trust and it's just like we're so early in this like life cycle we got to be we got to be
thinking on like a 20 year 10 year 50 year scale before we really start to see like actual markets
move or and by markets move I mean
like actual infrastructure being developed to actually give people what they need to do this
stuff like seamlessly like you know I would say the same thing was true for all financial services
revolutions in the past. Jawal just said that he got lunch money from his mom is that right? Well, today's like a religious holiday for Muslims called Eid.
Oh, happy Eid. Yeah, yeah. So it's a tradition. I thought it was yesterday. Yeah. It was technically last night.
Yeah, it was last night. Yeah, yeah. But my mom, no matter how old I will get, she will always give me Eid money.
Good on you. Yeah, yeah. I will try to go back a million times
she was just not accepted.
So yeah, I did get some Eid money.
Yeah, I want to add a really quick two points here.
Aside from Eid, which is super fun.
And I hope everyone's out there celebrating.
But ultimately, the market is just moving super fast and
we're seeing validation announcements on a day to day basis where, you know, it's become like a
land grab for stablecoin infrastructure or like robot money infrastructure. Right. We saw like
MasterCard acquisition with BBNK just yesterday, right? They got like $1.8 billion
valuation for like, you know, around $40 million in revenue. Like that's mammoth, like good for
them, right? But that is more of a signal from how MasterCard is viewing their future than what
actual like the valuation is for some of these
companies, right? And that is just the truth. So the facts are just out there, right? I think the
rest of us in Web3, we're reacting to those facts that are present, right? Like the large financial
institutions that you're referring to are just accessing players and they are acquiring points
for on off ramps. They're acquiring points for custody. They're acquiring points for the actual
infrastructure. They are just acquiring what they need to innovate. A book that I often quote,
and I actually have it on my desk because that's who I am, but it's The Innovator's Dilemma.
And if you've not read The Innovator's Dilemma, everyone should go and read it. But it is kind of
the manifesto that I live by when I look at which industry I want to go into next. I really think
about technology in this landscape. And if you actually think about the financial
institutions and kind of how they're inching towards where they want to be, they are faced
with innovators dilemma. There is a part of their business that is very, very well aware that they
need to optimize their backend, their settlement layers. They need to optimize how their treasury and
their assets are moved. They need to optimize how they service their clients. But the truth is,
majority of their customers, their core customer base that pays for their bread and butter,
that drives their stock price is Jamal's mom, who's still using cash.
And so for them to make that leap and innovate innovate it's going to be a slow and gradual
grind and that's why these acquisitions are happening so we understand that and then there's
a world the world that we live in this audience your people who are listening today that world
is building this infrastructure from the ground up they are web3 native companies that are building
from the get-go on an infrastructure that is truly open,
truly decentralized, has global access that considers all of the market structure and risk
management learnings that our predecessors had in that old industry and we're applying them
in a more programmatic way in this infrastructure. That world is very fascinating to me
because that really changes things.
That optimizes how money is moved,
not just for today and the next five years,
but out into the future,
this is going to be how transactions occur.
We say this a lot here at Polygon too,
that robots need robot money.
If you believe in AI,
this is a very tangential industry, right?
But aren't you all like,
isn't Polygon, Jamal, you and Maria,
aren't you trying to, I get your point, Maria,
like Web3 is super interesting
and Web3 actually has lost some of its narratives
for a number of reasons.
Institutions are sort of driving the entire sort of
both investment as well as transactions.
Aren't you sort of all this announcement that you had, isn't that gearing towards institutions?
Isn't that what you're doing?
I mean, I think that you, I think the long term and the reason why I personally got in the space
is not about institutions. I think that you build products that are institutional grade by starting with institutions and then you use the blockchain to
democratize them. And I think you bring them to the retail side. And that's why we're building
just as much infrastructure on the retail side as we are on the institution side. Because we think
the two paths will converge. But you want to start with the institutional grade stuff because it's
got the best infrastructure and the best bearings. And then you want to open that up
to the popular market. And yes, like that's the neglected market. Like a lot of us has
been doing this for a long time. And of course, like, you know, enterprises and institutions
drive a lot of the volume. But I firmly believe that like long term long tail markets will
drive the majority of the user base and the volume and and like
that's the market that everyone will learn to care about when they can see that it can be
immediately tackled by using some sort of like blockchain based infrastructure
yeah we're doing both right like i think we definitely like we want to service those
institutions to the extent that you guys are also speaking to them and trying to help them kind of
figure out how do they upgrade their rails like we want to be part of those conversations we want to provide that expertise
i would say that uh you know it's impossible to get jamal into a meeting because most of his day
is talking to exactly those institutions in trying to advise them on how to upgrade their
infrastructure and service their customers better so we want to be part of that journey and then the
other half of us is like to your point jamalal, we're servicing kind of a new frontier consumer in America, right? There is a whole
planet out there with people who do not have access to financial infrastructure the way you
and I are referring to it on this call Nitin, right? We're taking a very like local American
first view and here there's plenty of options. I'm not, I'm not. I've traveled to like 90 countries
to understand the impact of Bitcoin, 90 countries, like nine I'm not. I've traveled to like 90 countries to understand the impact of Bitcoin.
90 countries, like nine zero in general.
I've been to a remote place.
I'm not arguing that.
I'm just, my question primary was one is the, one is the financial modernization.
So my perspective, and I generally don't keep my opinion on this element, is we are modernizing
you know, opinion on this, you know, element is we are modernizing the financial infrastructure,
the financial infrastructure.
but what you're building now gives birth to new asset classes, like ability for you to own your
data and monetize your data. You're building the infrastructure for that world, but you have to
start with ability for people to understand money, right? The way it's the construct as, you know,
as it is today. My thinking was that it's not i'm
not questioning any of the web 3 narratives i come from the same world too and i understand
this non-american perspective but the announcement that we you guys had today was i think largely to
attract an average user doesn't know anything about transfer agency or fund accounting it's
institutional narrative right i don't think a bit corner will care about transfer agency
narrative right like i don't think a bit corner will care about transfer agency
but institutions do this is your apex conversation right anyway yeah yeah again my answer my answer
remains the same i think there there is like a we're we're servicing all of it like the this is
where we're not thinking of this in a narrow perspective like the sector that we're targeting is broad right and there are
two elements of being two elements being built concurrently and they converge into like what we
want to be which is the chain where all money is being moved i mean if you could bring these two
together you know from an infrastructure perspective that's exactly it that was like our mic drop moment like we heard it and then we could not unhear it and now it's
ringing in all of polygon's ears all 300 people are talking about this every day all the time
well that's where we got to even when we're building right so we um want to just a a quick
point on and raise is regulators are almost like different chains they will have different
requirements and different ways to interface but at a pure ethos they're moving an asset from a
to b and they need to make sure it's done right based on their rules so i actually quite um i sit
there and i look at this and go is it the same between a retail and institution they got i think
institutions got more rules
a retail maybe has a lighter set or a different set of rules but they're still doing the same action they're moving from a to b and it might be a trade it might be whatever it could be and so i
guess my point of could we bring it together one day and obviously there is um it's probably a bit
romantic to some degree but i do think that as we innovate and
bring this together um that a lot of the i'm seeing the market a lot of it is quite uh country
focused so if you're doing actions in certain countries there's different ways to do it even
when you know working at web3 especially at an institution level so that's been something that
we've been taking into account building our infrastructure because at the end of the day we want someone to be able to that's part of the
safety narrative that we have being safe is just technical you want to be doing something and
and interacting in a in a country and know that you're not doing something wrong even you know
you're like oh okay well i'm moving assets from a to B in this region. It needs to make sure that this is actually happening with it.
So, yeah, I guess on that kind of, there's different layers,
but I just wanted to highlight that as we kind of,
obviously, we want these things to come together to convert.
So, Luke, I'll kind of send you our open money stack,
kind of broad thesis.
It's on our website, like, a little bit after the fact.
But what I want to kind of, for you to take away from this is like uh the open money stack is a single api where
like any enterprise any you know fin serve any human or agent can kind of connect
and essentially access payment infrastructure in a global sense, right? So think about it like this. Imagine
you're a company, right? When the internet was produced, right? Any company could go on there
and create a website and have a global presence, but you could not monetize your business globally.
You had to do that on a phase scale out. You have to go country by country, region by region
in the US state by state even, right?
And, like, go on and figure out how do I sell my goods?
How do I actually transact?
How do I, you know, have operations here?
Imagine with a single API if you could just go from, like, zero to global distribution.
Like, that utopia is possible with what we're building.
Yeah.
I think you can.
I am not, but, yeah, Marie, I don't know if you can like close this out
or wrap this up, but anyways, sorry guys.
I love this conversation with something good one.
Like you guys, I have a ton of respect for everyone here.
Thanks for having me.
I got to jump, I'm sorry.
But amazing conversation for sure.
Thank you very much.
Well, I think we could keep going on and on for like a long time.
There are so many other topics we could discuss, you know,
like shared identity, compliance, you know,
actually between different jurisdictions,
what it would look like even like KYC between different institutions,
you know, where there are many topics.
But I would say like first, I want to thank you for joining today. It was our first
version of this. We're going to do it again. Really appreciate your insights. It's been a pleasure.
I'll share with you also like some more information about the stream so you can repose
that and you can extract different content and also of course thanking you for being a member
of the Enterprise Team Alliance. We're going to do more of those also in New York. And also, of course, thanking you for being a member of the Enterprise-Herm Alliance.
We're going to do more of those also in New York,
probably also more workshops.
But thank you very much, everyone, for being here today.
And I think I can say, I was told that we had about 1,500
people at a certain point on the stream.
So I think it worked out pretty well.
Good.
Thanks, everyone.
Thanks, Luc.
Good to connect with you both. Thanks, everyone. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye. Good. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Luke. Good to connect with you both.
Thanks, everyone.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Thanks, Maria.
