Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
ETH SCALED ?
Recorded: Dec. 11, 2023 Duration: 1:05:10Space Recording
Full Transcription
Yo, yo, yo.
What's up, English?
You're alright?
Yeah, there we go. Now I'm hearing you.
Off on my end.
Alright, there we go.
Alright, let's get this started.
Yeah, let's do it.
Oh, English.
I can't really hear it.
Is it not working?
No, the audio is like really bad.
Alright.
We're going to skip that.
I had some problems with my phone, so I guess
no music for anybody.
Hopefully you can hear me decent.
Yeah, I can.
If not, I'm going to do a factory reset on my phone.
I can hear you.
I'm sorry that you're not feeling well, man.
Here, I'll give him a sec.
I have no...
Oh, hold on.
You make it a work, English?
I'll take that as a maybe.
I'll take that as a maybe.
While we can...
Can you hear me now?
Yeah, yeah.
Alright, alright.
Alright.
This is pretty representative of how I'm feeling after Art Basel.
I'm already getting sick.
My throat is sore.
Runny nose.
So, good times.
Okay, let me just...
I'm wondering what I should name this space.
Avax, running.
Avax and...
Avax.
And soul.
Not what...
Alt season?
Alt season.
Yeah, alt season's good.
Alt season.
Yeah, you started it with...
With Avax, soul, overexposed.
And it just made me feel like shit.
Because I'm very underexposed.
So, I appreciate that, Eddie.
Yeah, that's fair.
Dude, I'm sorry to hear that you're not feeling well.
Like, I can hear it in you.
I can hear...
I can hear the lack of energy.
I'm sorry about that.
Yeah.
We'll make it work.
We'll make it work.
Anyway.
I'll toss over...
I guess we're just gonna hop into things.
Yeah.
So, I'll just start saying hi.
What's up, Jonah?
How was...
How was Basil?
It was good.
I'm having a similar problem to English.
This is the...
Yeah, this is the...
We went to our Basil crew.
Oh, dude.
My throat doesn't hurt, though.
I just can't stop running nose.
And I sneeze every five minutes.
All right.
Cool.
So, let me just front run you guys.
Give me, like, a second.
I did shake Jonah's hand.
So, I'm gonna blame Jonah.
No, no, no.
I think he got it first.
Listen, I think I got it from someone at the shrapnel house, because Han Tao told me who
was kind of sick.
So, I didn't start feeling this till this morning, which is...
So, don't worry.
One, two...
Same here.
Same here.
This morning.
Two.
I am the most hypochondriac motherfucker in all of an empty basil.
Just for context, so you know you didn't get it from me.
I took three showers a day.
I hand sanitized, like, five times a day.
I wore a mask...
You did mention this.
I wore a mask in the bathroom and inside most...
Ask anyone there.
I was the most careful motherfucker, but I think I know who I got it from.
There was one guy who showed up, like, last minute to the shrapnel house who was clearly
sick as fuck, which...
But I don't have a problem with him, but he was...
Dude, he's, like, fucking wiping his nose and snot, and then, like, he's like, hey, I'm
whatever, right?
And then he went to dinner with us, and I think it was obvious, but I was like, hey, can
you guys scoot over so I can sound the opposite side of him?
I felt bad, because, like, he wasn't a bad guy.
I would have talked to him.
It's just...
I was like, okay, I'm like, dude, you're fucking sick.
Why are you...
Like, what are you doing?
Yeah, that's actually probably shitty on his part.
He'd be like, hey, dude, I'd be happy to join you guys.
Apparently, he was on antivirals or some shit, because I asked his coworker the next day,
but I have a feeling it was either him or it was Goody, because apparently Goody has the
same symptoms, and he had it first.
I see.
Yeah.
So, I guess the COVID...
Incoming.
The COVID co-ups are back.
By the way, I'm literally...
That is so funny.
It's so funny that you say that, because I just posted a tweet.
I'm going to pin it to the top of the stage, because it's 100% going to happen.
Like, the incoming...
Guys, I got the COVID airdrop tweet.
I hope not.
So, I took a...
Just so you know, I took a COVID test an hour ago, and it came back negative.
So, I'm going to try again tomorrow, but I don't have COVID yet.
You don't have COVID.
I doubt you have COVID.
There's...
I think it's just a cold.
It's an epidemic of respiratory ailments, viruses, whatever that's going on.
Oh, even better.
Yeah.
Thanks.
I've had it the past two weeks.
I'm on antibiotics right now, just finishing up.
Hans Howe had it, too, but he was already, like...
He had the residuals, but I shared a hotel with him, so, like, it's possible he gave it to me.
It's weird.
I was talking about this earlier today, that, like, the media's kind of sprinkling it in there,
like breadcrumbs and stuff, but not really starting to talk about it yet.
But then I saw that, like, dogs and shit are having a borderline epidemic right now of respiratory issues.
So, I don't know.
I think it might be something worth monitoring.
Like, not just for you, obviously, but, like, in general.
Yo, are you trying to freak me out?
No, you'll be fine.
You'll be fine.
You have an immune system.
Mine is, you know, I don't have to spleen.
Well, listen, I had asthma medication as a kid, so hold on.
Fair.
But, I mean, you're also, like, not an infant or something, right?
So, like...
I could be.
Maybe with the fashion choices.
Bitch, I might.
It depends on the context sometimes.
Sometimes he is.
Yeah, so we've got English to co-host sick like a dog.
We've got Jonah leaning towards...
I'm not sick as a dog.
I'm just sneezing, and I'm covered in snot.
So sick as a dog.
All right, cool.
We got...
Oh, man.
I knew the Basil crew would...
I, you know...
I will say this, because I don't want to harp too heavy on Basil,
because what ends up happening is people run these, like, recap spaces,
and they're just so boring for anyone that isn't in the space.
But, so, I'll just say, I felt only FOMO in any image that had Jonah
and any image that had Finn and any image that had Wob.
And I was like, I wish I could see those guys.
Otherwise, I was all right.
Like, didn't feel like I...
Yeah, fuck English, right?
Fuck English.
Yeah.
Well, I've seen you already, and I know I see you.
I just don't...
I don't know how many opportunities I have to see the other guys.
Oh, you've never met Jonah?
Oh, shit.
Nope.
Nope.
I think the most FOMO I had was ThreadGuy's mixtape from basketball today
and then seeing him get, like, all bloodied up.
Like, what a warrior.
That was pretty cool.
That was pretty cool.
So, was that guy wearing, like, football cleats?
What was that about?
Yeah, I don't know.
That was weird.
That was weird, right?
Like, how did a hardwood floor cause that?
Wasn't it the dude?
I think so.
I think so.
It had to be fingernails.
Dude, it was like the Black Panther.
Whatever.
It doesn't matter.
But straight up, I've gone to, like, two NFTLAs, two NFTMYCs, one Art Basel,
and I've gotten either COVID or a respiratory virus from every single one of them.
The only one I didn't was Consensus and a Zuki party in Vegas.
Yeah, because you have, like, a thousand people standing on top of each other.
And God knows that a lot of us were, like, you know, I would rather die than miss this.
And the answer is, yeah, you end up getting everyone else sick.
No, no, literally.
That's literally what it is.
It's like, ah, you know, I'm kind of feeling a little under the weather.
Like, I'm a little run down.
Maybe it's just I'm hungover.
Ah, fuck it.
I'll sleep for, I'll rest for a couple hours and then drink a, you know, a Pedialyte and we're going out.
So, yeah, not the best.
I saw Value and Time do that, so they're about to get everyone sick.
Oh, that's funny.
I did see that.
I saw that picture with the Pedialyte.
Anyway, I will say that was a pretty good, that was a pretty good announcement for the Pudgies.
Just real talk for a second.
That was a pretty good announcement.
I thought that it was pretty exciting.
It was also laced with, like, no one talks about the primary sponsor, like, the Powered By there,
that it's ZK Sync, I thought that was interesting, you know?
ZK Sync, by the way, L2, ZK Proofs, but I thought that was fascinating.
There's a lot of excitement around the alts right now, hence the alt season title, right?
Like, Phantom is even pumping.
Like, F-A-N-T-O-M, that's pumping.
AVAX is pumping.
Soul is pumping.
Everything, everything's going, which I will say, at least historically, is probably not the best sign,
because it normally goes, like, ETH, no, sorry, Bitcoin, and then the primary alt, which is generally ETH,
but now might be Soul and ETH in tandem, and then to the alts under it,
and now we're getting the alts under it, which is generally, like, the end of that rotation cycle.
I don't know.
Eddie, out of curiosity, just because you brought up, when you brought up ZK Sync,
it reminded me, what was Eric's disposition?
Because I know you wanted to bring him up.
He's traveling.
We couldn't get to it.
He was saying that he was, it was like a bull case, where I didn't really read it too much.
I'm not feeling great, so I figured we'd talk about it.
What was, like, the synopsis of what he was saying?
I actually didn't get a full chance to read into it.
What I do know...
He seemed bullish on it.
Yeah.
ZK Proofs are something a lot of people are pretty excited about.
So, they're not as, I guess, like, easy to run as Optimistic.
So, like, the Optimism stack, there's a reason why Coinbase is running with that now.
That's pretty exciting.
And that's been actually, you know, starting to gain some traction,
especially with the fact that Optimism as a stack is way...
Like, basically anyone can deploy their own L2 now if they want what they want to.
So, that's been gaining traction.
But I think ZK Proofs, for some of the more hardcore crowd, are actually really effective and do a good job of scaling.
So, I don't know.
I would have liked to have him as, like, a, you know, premier speaker on that.
But he's busy.
So, it's okay.
There's plenty else to...
I had Jesse from Base have a talk, and then I went over to Base House, and he came on live on the Little Downs show.
He was talking the reason they chose the Optimism stack.
It was primarily for governance.
Like, they wanted to onboard a lot of DAOs, and apparently there was something about the technology that just made it more suitable for that.
I mean, among other things.
He had two DMs this weekend.
He said he was busy.
Damn.
That would have been great, too.
Oh, well, dude.
Everyone's at Basel, man.
Or at least he comes home from it.
I'll give him a shout and see if he comes on.
I think he'll come on.
Maybe next Sunday.
I don't know if we have a different topic, but we'll have a chat.
Sure.
The weather was amazing.
You missed it.
Which one was?
The whole thing.
The weather.
The weather was weather.
I know.
I know.
I get it.
I get it.
I get it.
You missed all the ladies.
So many ladies.
Oh, yeah.
I'm sure.
I'm sure, Jonah.
I'm sure there were plenty.
Actually, there were more than I thought there would be, to be honest.
There's more than normal.
But yeah, dude, honestly, it was a bullish sign.
I saw more women than like any other NFT conference, which is pretty good.
Yeah, because it's Miami.
That's just the nature of the city.
Good.
Anyway.
Some of them might have been getting paid to be there, but.
Well, it's what it is.
Nice.
And that's no different than any other club or any other kind of thing.
There's a lot of.
It was a good experience overall.
I mean, I feel like you could spot that pretty easily.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Jesus Christ.
I got one for you.
I think that you were mentioning alts.
I think the arbitrum announcement for Rug Radio is fucking huge.
So what was that?
I mean, they're talking about the reward in their whole ecosystem.
And, you know, I think they had, you know, maybe some challenges with figuring it out as far as the logistics of it.
And it seems like this is like a, you know, a second bite at the apple to, you know, really put something streamlined together there with, you know, a lot more resources.
And then, you know, adding decrypt into the mix and merging with them and how you have like mainstream crypto audiences that they'll be able to appeal to.
I was really impressed with the announcements from Rug Radio.
Yeah.
I mean, that was pretty solid.
Sure, let's go for it.
Well, no, I was going to say also perhaps it has to do with like their monetization model because as much as they have like sponsorships and all of that, you know, when I chatted with Loxley, he's like he kind of made the analogy that that's kind of like a magic trick where you're kind of like showing one thing.
But you're really doing something in the back end and that back end is using like the data, how people like, you know, either whether they vote on something or they purchase or whatever they do to transact and they have that model and they use that for advertisers and just kind of having that back end data and perhaps having the Arbitum and decrypt and whatever data that they have.
So kind of like just, you know, accumulating data and information so you can get analytics on how people behave on the blockchain.
So I thought that was pretty interesting.
Surveillance is great.
Surveillance is good.
Yeah, I was going to say praise the Lord of surveillance.
Let's just put cameras in our homes, in our bedrooms.
Naveen, I got a question for you, too, because we're I'll stick on the announcements topic for a bit.
Maybe that'll lead us somewhere because because there was one there was one this weekend that I was a little bit a little bit perturbed by, I guess, which, by the way, real quick, just reset the room.
Guys, if you're enjoying this conversation or think that you might end up or if you just want to help out, you know, the rules or not rules.
But, you know, the memo likes and retweets bottom right.
They help the space out a lot and would very much appreciate it.
But you don't have to.
And it's just, you know, thanks.
Thanks if you do.
Anyway, Naveen, there was a speaking of surveillance.
I'm curious how you felt about the Safex D-Gods announcement, because I didn't love it.
I thought it was kind of careless.
I no longer pay attention to D-Gods announcement.
So what's the TLDR?
They partnered with Safe.
Safe is obviously for anyone that isn't aware.
It's Gnosis, like formerly Gnosis.
It's the multi-sig company that they've actually have.
Like, you know, it's fantastic tech.
Basically, you need multiple people to sign in order to execute a single transaction on a wallet.
So it's a pretty safe and literally safe mechanism of interacting with the chains, basically any chain.
So it's good, right?
You need multiple people to sign.
It's cool.
D-Gods decided that they wanted to take it a step further in their partnership with Safe, which unclear as to, you know, if that's just a mutual partnership or if likely Safe is paying them.
And they said, we want to make the world's largest multi-sig.
And in doing so, they decided that they would have a website where you uploaded your wallet and then your phone, like your phone number.
And that was it.
Like, those are the two fields that you'd enter, your wallet address and then your phone number.
And what the reason is likely, the reason is likely so that they could do something where they add your address as a signee and then they text you and they're like, hey, there's a new proposal out as to what to do with this multi-sig.
Let's get this rolling.
And I get it.
Like, I understand, I understand why they wanted to do that, but I don't know if it's just me, but that seems like one of the most obtusely anti-crypto things that you could ever do.
And also extremely careless in that it's just a website that's on Frank's account with a wallet address and a phone number field.
And that's it.
They had a Formula One card in the garage, so I think it's probably fine.
Oh, that's true.
That is true.
Kraken did hook them up.
Yeah, I think there's just a lot of confusion.
There continues to be a lot of confusion in our industry about, you know, how transaction data and, like, what sort of protection should exist for users.
Like, if you talk to someone who's, like, an Ethereum person, they'll say, oh, well, you know, the wallets are pseudonymous.
But then everyone goes and registers an ENS name.
And then it's not pseudonymous anymore because the moment someone knows your ENS name, then it's, you know, not pseudonymous.
ENS, by default, is connected to an Ethereum wallet.
And then you have stuff like this where it's like, oh, yeah, here's my wallet.
And now I'm going to connect it to my phone number and I'm going to give it to a private corporation.
And now they're going to have, like, this incredible data set.
Yeah.
I mean, I just think it's kind of silly.
You know, the problem I have with all of it is it's distinctly worse than what we have in TradFi.
Like, in TradFi, most transactions people make peer-to-peer are default confidential.
You know, it's like, if I send you money, you know, with Cash App, you don't get to see, like, my entire bank balance in every transaction I've ever made.
If I send you money with Zelle, same thing.
Even Venmo, like, over 50% of Venmo users have privacy on by default.
So, like, I always get very confused at this idea of, like, developing systems that are, you know, objectively worse in terms of user privacy and calling it the future.
I just never really understood that.
And, you know, I understand that people, there's a whole other group of people in our industry who are like, transparency good because it prevents frauds.
And I'm like, dude, how many frauds do we have in this industry every day?
I don't think the transparency dimension prevents frauds.
Like, it objectively doesn't because, you know, the people who are fraudsters, many of them are pretty sophisticated and they'll use a mixer.
They'll do various things to obfuscate their transactions.
So, I just think there's a lot of confusion in our industry.
And I think stuff like that from DGods is a really good example of just, you know, confusion.
Like, okay, that's not great to, like, auto-docs people's wallets by connecting them to cell phone numbers.
Like, that's, like, your instincts, just your instincts alone on it, it's like, there's an ick factor.
It's like, wait, that's icky.
Why would I do that, you know?
And then, you know, it's so funny because you see these, you know, ever-improving ETH tools where it's like, oh, yeah, you know, like, auto-spy on everything that's happening on Ethereum.
You know, there's no anonymity here.
It's kind of a facade.
So, you know, I think it's a global problem in our industry that, you know, hopefully gets solved over time.
But that's just where we're at.
I think it's partially confusion, but it's partially just that people have different priorities, you know, and different players have different priorities.
I mean, yeah, there are some places where there's just pure hypocrisy, like we're claiming that royalties are centralized, but then having a point system which is entirely centralized based on what their mood is.
I mean, they've even admitted that they change points a little at the end of the season based on parameters that they don't tell anybody.
Like, you know, some places where there's just pure hypocrisy.
But I just think there are other areas where there's just different priorities.
You know, a lot of NFT traders say they would not buy an NFT that blocks exchanges because that's not decentralized.
And then there are other people who say, no, I buy NFTs because I like the art.
I like the artists.
I want to support them.
And I have no problem with blocking exchanges, even though decentralization is kind of a core tenet of Web3.
There's some people here for whom that actually isn't that important.
So I think that that's a little bit of what's going on here.
I mean, there's, you know, just people at their priorities.
Yeah.
I mean, look, I hear you on that.
And look, I think there's, as you well know, you know, I think there's many different dimensions to these systems.
You know, I think, like, decentralization, I would argue if decentralization takes away from user experience, like if it makes it more confusing or more difficult to use the system, then people will opt out of decentralization almost every time.
Because, you know, like people want convenience.
I think whenever, you know, everybody kind of wants that.
And there's been plenty of products that have come to market that are just more convenient, even if they're, like, worse for users in various ways.
The thing about the privacy stuff, though, which is really interesting, is that, you know, privacy doesn't necessarily have to detract from the user experience.
You know, and again, you know, like I go swipe a credit card at, you know, a gas station.
You know, the gas station doesn't automatically by default get my entire transaction history from the beginning of time, you know.
And that's like, you know, using Apple Pay is pretty much as convenient as it gets.
So I think this is, like, one of those things where, as an industry, it requires a little bit more, you know, sort of thoughtfulness about meeting users where they are.
I think another challenge we have is, you know, a lot of people who develop products in our space focus maniacally on, quote, unquote, crypto native users, which is fine.
You know, obviously, like, finding product market fit with any group of users is admirable.
Like, it's, you know, so difficult to build anything that works in this world.
But what I will say about that is I think it's really important to note that, like, we should just be really honest with the number of crypto users is a very small population, like just a very small group of people.
And, you know, oftentimes products built, you know, for the crypto audience really won't apply at all to, you know, broader groups of people.
You know, growing up in Silicon Valley, we used to always talk about products built in San Francisco for people who live in San Francisco.
And, you know, and that was usually stated as sort of like a negative, right?
So, like, a venture capital firm would look at a product that was built in San Francisco for people in San Francisco as a negative because the total addressable market was just simply not big enough.
And yet, you know, in crypto, we kind of view it the other way.
We say, oh, you know, it's being built for, like, crypto native people.
So, therefore, you know, it's the right thing to do where, you know, I would say, well, crypto native people, you know, you're right, maybe have different priorities.
They may be mostly traders.
They may be, like, other types of people and, therefore, you know, have different priorities from everybody else.
But at the same time, it's everybody else that, you know, we're all craving to use the technology.
I mean, that's the idea behind the mass adoptions coming, guys, right?
Like, that's why everyone keeps screaming that.
And everyone, everyone, the weird part for me is everyone always points to, especially on Solana, you hear the words a lot, UI, UX.
I mean, I just, that, that to me is a little weird because it's not like Solana has a good UI, UX.
Like, Solana's just a chain, right?
I just, that, that to me is always weird.
But people always point to it and they're like, oh, the UI, UX, that's why it's so easy.
I mean, yes, I understand gas fees and I understand that, like, I understand that part of it.
Well, UI, UX has many different dimensions, right?
So, you know, for example, Google will penalize websites and search results that load too slowly.
So, on that level, Solana is, you know, far easier, quote-unquote, easier to use than anything in the Ethereum universe, like today, right?
I think that's, like, objectively true.
But, you know, when you, when, but there's a whole nother level of user, you know, UI, UX or user experience that is the actual applications themselves and, you know, conversion rates and calls to action and, you know, information architecture and all these other, like, dimensions.
Where, yeah, I mean, like, all crypto apps, like, largely suck in that regard and that certainly includes the Solana applications, right?
So, I think it's just many different elements and in certain key elements, Solana has, you know, differentiated itself in specifically two key areas, which is transaction fees and just, like, raw performance.
And that, you know, is certainly an element, I would argue, of user experience.
You know, it was fun.
It was fun this past week watching, was it, was it Tully from Solana that was arguing with, with, with Dave, what is his name?
From Bankless, is it Hoffman?
David Hoffman, I think?
I thought that was hilarious, watching them go back and forth.
But, because basically, David Hoffman was, was trying to purport that, uh, he was trying to say that, like, Ethereum had, I, I, I can't, here, I'm going to go find that tweet because it was one of the, one of the best back and forths where, just to be honest, like, I, I'm an ETH guy, but David Hoffman got absolutely slammed by Tully, just dumpstered.
But, in the meantime, we'll all go look for that.
Jonah, what's going on?
Yeah.
So, I, I agree with Naveen on the privacy side, but I, I just have a different view in terms of what the chain has become.
Um, I think there's, uh, this last cycle where privacy was critically important, and I think it'll come back.
I think, I think ideas come in waves, but I, from the entertainment perspective, right, DeFi is not entertainment.
Although it's become entertainment through a form of speculation, um, I think what the industry wants is the exact opposite of decentralization.
I think many people are, uh, sorry, private, being private, anonymity, um, I think there is a small select group that are truly intelligent that want that, but when you want mass adoption, you have to understand what people want.
And most people don't, uh, like, realistically, they don't care about being private, because if they did, they wouldn't have used Facebook.
So, that, that's already kind of a losing battle.
I, I think, I think, here's the thing, though, about that.
I, I think, you know, that, that's a common, um, you know, counterpoint to the privacy argument.
But, I, what I would say is that I think there's a huge difference between, you know, like, posting pictures or posting content on Facebook that, by the way, you get to decide what you post.
Um, and, uh, and financial privacy, where, you know, in your daily life, you already have it.
Like, you already, you already have it, right?
Like, this isn't something that you have to fight for, because you already have it with your credit cards in your, and I'm just talking specifically peer-to-peer.
I'm not talking about privacy from, like, the man.
I'm just talking strictly peer-to-peer.
And so, what I would say to you is that, you know, and then, and then the other thing that's really interesting about it is when you, when you think about money, corporations, like, the companies that make games, um, also have it.
You know, like, most game developers, you know, are, are privately held companies, you know, especially, like, small to mid-sized game developers.
You don't really know, like, you know, you, you, you, you wouldn't be able to pull a database of their whales.
Like, that's not something that you can pull.
I'm sure Tipalti could.
Sorry, what?
I'm sure Tipalti could.
I don't know who that is.
There are, there are payment providers for these games.
Yeah, yeah, but, but, but again, I'm talking about peer-to-peer, Jonah.
I'm talking about, like, you as a person who is not a payment processor or a bank or someone who, like, works directly with them or AppLovin or, you know, some other, like, vendor, you know, like, you can't go on some analytics tool.
Like, you can't create a Dune report, for example, you know, for, like, a random game, like, whale stack ranked.
Like, you can't do that.
And, and so, you know, in all my, I know you talk to game publishers all the time, but I, I talk to game publishers all the time, too.
You know, specifically, you know, have great relationships with Electronic Arts and Activision and, and, you know, Microsoft Studios, et cetera.
And, you know, that's, that's one of the key reasons that holds them back from, you know, participating in the industry because they look at the cost to acquire a user, like, a high value user, and they go, why the hell would I want to educate everyone that person X is a whale?
Like, why would I want anyone else to know that?
And that, that, so it's, it's not just an, even an end user thing.
It's also, like, a corporate problem.
I think that, sorry, I think whales are making themselves apparent regardless of what corporates want.
And I think that's part of the game of crypto as well, is that whales want to, want to flex.
And they certainly do in these games.
And those other companies do eventually find out.
It's not, you know, it's not like, it's not like there's a special whale only for that game.
It's like a whale will play two or three different games, right?
So, you know.
I don't know.
I just, I disagree.
And that's not what I hear from game publishers.
Like, what I hear from game publishers is that, you know, first of all, new whales are being created all the time.
And it depends on the type of game.
You know, you may not want people to know that you spend $30,000 a year playing a free-to-play mobile game.
Like, that is not necessarily a flex, you know.
So, I think that, you know, I think you're bunching a bunch of different psychologies into, like, one psychology.
Oh, maybe we can agree to disagree.
Yeah, yeah.
You know.
No, that's perfectly fine.
But I just don't think that all whales are created equal.
I don't think that they're all the same.
And I certainly don't think that they're all public knowledge.
If they were, then I think, like, every single whale would be getting a bunch of phone calls, you know.
But they're not.
And you can look at it across all industries.
Like, you know, just because I'm a Delta Diamond doesn't mean I'm getting phone calls from American Airlines or United.
They simply don't know.
You know, they don't know that I have status and that I spend what I spend to fly.
So, I think, like, to say that it's all public information out there already is just, like, straight up not true.
Well, a lot of it is out there.
You can find it.
So, you can say it's not true, but it kind of is.
Well, no.
But, well, then prove it.
Like, can you pull, like, prove it to me.
There are YouTubers who are flexing whale ship and then Asmongold and them cover them and shame them.
But they have their own little clique.
There are several whales in regions like Saudi Arabia and Dubai.
No, Jonah.
Like, okay.
Like, I'll give you a specific example.
So, if you were on a phone with someone, say, like, Nick Tallarico, who built Superfree into, like, a giant game publisher, he would sit here and tell you, like, dude, you have no idea how many whales I have.
And these whales are not public.
And they're not necessarily known.
And we spend an enormous amount of time trying to identify these people and acquire them.
And it's a lot of it's proprietary.
So, to say that it's, like, just because I agree with you that there is a psychology of a certain type of whale that is let me flex, let me be a YouTuber, let me show everyone my fancy shit.
And that is true.
I agree that is a psychology.
The only point I'm trying to make to you is that's not every psychology.
And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't necessarily want to flex what they spend on video games for many different reasons.
And those people, it's just not public information.
And these corporations don't want it to be public information.
Also, I think â
But a lot of the ones that are here do.
And I think that's all that really matters because these are the whales here.
The whales here do like that.
The way you're talking about â now you're talking about crypto users.
Okay, so there's a big difference between crypto users, which is a very small number of people, and the rest of gaming-dom, right?
So, like, the number of people who play video games on Earth is enormous.
You and I both know that.
The number of people who play Web3 games is a rounding error today.
So, to say that everyone on planet Earth that plays games â
But the amount of whales is not that large in Web2.
Oh, it is pretty large.
It's pretty large.
That's what drives, you know, a majority of the profits in the free-to-play world.
It's larger than you may think.
How many whales do you think there are in Web2 gaming?
Millions.
There are millions.
There are many, many millions.
Tens of millions.
Well, we should bring them here because that's some good money.
Well, we should bring them here, but I'm telling you that these people have different priorities.
These people are not crypto traders.
They're not people who necessarily â
And these are people who already have financial privacy by default.
These are people who work with companies and play games of companies that are accustomed
to having full control, including over their user and player data and information.
And so, to expect that people are going to just want to, like, come into Web3 where there's
no privacy whatsoever on these popular protocols, I just think that's, like, a foolish assumption.
I think, like, one other thing that â I mean, while there are the critiques of Web2 and
privacy, the fact is, like, no one knows what I do with my Vanguard account.
Like, there's just that, like, that, like â and I agree that if every Vanguard user,
like â
I know.
â you just made that fully public, I think that would be a huge issue.
The other thing, though, is there's a bit of a mix even within Web2.
I had an experience where, like â I don't know if you guys remember Franklin, who was one
of the biggest ape holders who, you know, was â yeah, of course.
Of course you're â
And Franklin is very public with everything he does.
You know, he does everything under the E&S.
Franklin is bored.
He posts every single win he has.
But then, yeah, he kind of got â he had a bit of a scam situation.
And basically, he's gone right now.
And I tweeted what his P&L was, largely because, to me, like, if you're doing everything
so â I thought it was important that people understand what was going on with Blur Farmers
and you're deciding to put it all on chain.
And he told me, he's like, hey, dude, that really bothered me.
You know, and I've had that happen a few times where I'm always torn.
Like, do â if people are losing money, like, do I want to report that?
It's, like, kind of part of the ethos of the system.
But a lot of these whales who, you know, who in good times want to be very public actually
kind of don't like it when I do that.
And, you know, I'm torn because I like to be ethical.
I actually don't like to do things that bother people.
Like, that's not my ethos.
But at the same time, like, for what I'm doing, I think it's worth it because I think
it's important that people understand what's going on in this ecosystem, you know, especially
for things like farming, which has such a huge impact on prices and whatnot.
But I thought that was interesting how when I do that, I've had a couple people ping me
being like, that actually kind of bothers me that you're doing that.
So I think even the people who like Deflex, I'm not sure they really like how public everything
Okay, so let's say that's the case.
What was the solution?
Because Ethereum, you can't, I mean, as far as I'm aware, you can't just, like, magically
change Ethereum.
No, I think the, I'm not saying there's a solution, but I think the overall point was
that, like, that Web3 kind of has a privacy issue.
Like, the privacy stuff is a bit of an issue.
And, you know, you can think of people who, you say, okay, well, you can create seven different
wallets.
And it's like, well, that's a terrible user experience.
Like, imagine if I had to create seven different Vanguard accounts so people couldn't see what
I was trading.
Like, I don't think there is a great solution in the ecosystem, but I do think, I'd say
net-net, it actually is a bit of an issue.
Well, I will agree to one issue, which, like, and this is, I think this is where I would
absolutely agree, is if I was a public whale, which I'm a public person, you know, when
I disagree with someone or I move my money a certain way, like, there are people who
will hunt you down in real life and potentially rob you.
I mean, like, in gaming, we just call it stream sniping.
Like, that's a real thing.
It's called stream sniping in gaming.
And there is a real danger there.
I mean, I do think if you had, like, an AR, I think people would realize it's bad if you
had an AR headset and you walked around Miami and you just saw their bank account details,
like, on top of their head.
Like, you know, you walked into a restaurant and it said you only had 20,000 in your account,
so they just didn't give you a table.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's something like that.
I mean, what's really interesting to me is, so I was at an event in Mexico and I was talking
to, like, much more TradFi, like, business people.
And, you know, what was fascinating to me is, so here's my opinion.
My opinion is, if you build a protocol today and you simply just replicate what exists
on ETH, so, you know, like, Solana essentially is an almost identical ecosystem in terms of
functionality to Ethereum.
Like, there's DEXs, there's, you know, ENS clone, there's NFTs, there's NFT marketplaces.
Like, it's essentially all the same functionality.
It's, like, functionally identical.
It's just really cheap and really fast, right, but it's, like, essentially functionally the
same thing.
Basically, I think the problem here is there essentially are three core values for these,
like, protocols.
Like, one is essentially, you know, speculation, and that's the current dominant use case.
And when you're really focused on speculation as a use case, all that matters is getting more,
like, getting the people who are already in the casino to effectively gamble more, right?
That's, like, pretty much all that matters.
And that becomes, like, the primary driver because all the metrics that we measure in
our industry, things like TVL and, you know, like, the amount of people who are farming and,
like, all these things is basically various, like, casino, essentially, like, metrics.
The other use cases in our industry are essentially some form of store value, which, you know,
Bitcoin has largely won so far to date.
And then there's, like, payments.
I mean, payments is, like, basically de minimis.
It's, like, only in developing world, and it's only, like, USDT on Tron, basically.
Like, it's, like, really, really small potatoes so far, you know, at this point in time.
And so basically what I think the challenge is is, you know, the privacy stuff doesn't really
get addressed when you have a bunch of people who are, you know, primarily focused on speculation.
Because if you give someone a choice between privacy and making a dollar, they're always
going to choose making a dollar, right?
Now, the problem with that is that's very different from the real world.
Like, when I go spend, you know, like, use my credit card, you know, out in the world,
like, I'm not making a dollar, really.
Like, that's not really the focus.
I'm spending money.
It's, like, you know, movement of value to acquire a thing.
And, you know, I think in that context, you know, the privacy and all that stuff matters
a lot more than if I'm just, like, in a casino and I have an opportunity to make a dollar.
And so I think what has to happen is there just has to be, you know, protocols that emerge
with a slightly different, you know, cultural orientation and sort of different focus than
straight-up speculation.
And I'm not here knocking speculation at all.
I'm simply, I'm not knocking at all.
I'm just being, trying to be very objective and just say, that is the dominant use case
that we have today.
And that drives the decision-making.
So if you're Solana devs, does privacy actually matter to you right now?
And the answer is not really, you know, yeah, you have token 22 and you're, like, working
on adding some, like, lightweight, you know, optional privacy features.
But it's not really a thing that you care about.
You know, what you really, really care about is getting more and more and more people to
essentially turbo-speculate on-chain because that drives all the metrics that really matter
today in our world.
And I think over time, what I think will happen, if I just was going to be so bold as to make
a prediction, is I think those metrics that we use to measure the success of protocols
will ultimately evolve and change.
And I think there will probably be new protocols that emerge that have different cultural and,
like, orientations that are more focused on, like, very real-world use cases.
And they'll just look and feel very different from the existing protocols.
Speaking of metrics, all right, so I took a look.
I found the tweet.
I found it.
So it was from Anatoly, one of the co-founders of Solana, in response to your boy, David Hoffman,
who David Hoffman is, I want to say, like, the founder of Bankless.
Either way, if he's not the founder, because correct me if I'm wrong, he's very, like, that's
his thing, right?
Notable name, smart guy.
But David Hoffman started off this whole shebang with a pretty aggressive tweet saying,
TBH, one of the most bullish things about Solana is how the community manages its narrative
so well.
Which is a pretty aggressive, somewhat vague, but aggressive tweet.
And then Tully is like, well, not as well as spinning a de facto liveness failure into
ultrasound money.
And David's like, explain what you mean.
Tully responds with a Vitalik tweet from 2018, where Vitalik had basically said anything
around, like, $50 fees to run on a chain should count as de facto liveness failure, right?
And meanwhile, if you just participated in the other side mint, you'd know that the fees
were not $50, but rather $10,000.
So there he's kind of been trying to apply, like, look, Ethereum is a de facto liveness failure.
Then you actually had Eric Wall from the Tapper Wizards kind of chime in.
So, you know, obviously a Bitcoin guy, but I'll just finish here and open it up again.
He also posted screenshots of just what it costs to send ETH around.
And just sending ETH is still, like, a dollar, maybe $2 or so.
So it's not, you know, it's not $50.
And just the ability to move money around is still sub $2.
Yes, if you want to do more complex transactions, you're getting into hundreds and if not thousands
of dollars on Ethereum at, like, right now.
But I just thought that was a fun back and forth and kind of interesting.
I'll open it up.
Yeah, Naveen, actually, I think your perspective is quite accurate from specifically the consumer
lens when it comes to applications where there's obviously a much higher throughput.
And when it comes to consumer products, which we're seeing more and more is becoming
more and more casino-like, not necessarily in just crypto, but more globally in all consumer
apps, TVL and these metrics, like, matter extremely.
And that is the only, like, northern light when it comes to these kind of products that
are being created on Solana.
But it kind of foils to, like, kind of the other world that you're seeing with actually
the Bitcoin world, which is, like, institutional and, like, you know, actual sovereignty of the
data and the transactions and making sure that they're properly decentralized matters
quite a bit to a different audience.
And that obviously has another pool of capital, a very large pool of capital.
And Ethereum kind of sits in between them and kind of has, like, this soft identity crisis.
I think one of the best moves that existed on Ethereum, like, with the Ethereum Foundation
is actually ConsenSys and how they kind of pushed a lot of the institutional interests
and try to find some use cases, frankly, like, not as much yet.
But it kind of sits in between, like, this identity issue where, like, they want to go for
full decentralization and they want to have that integrity where institutions all the way
to sovereign, like, sovereignty is going to actually trust it.
Because, you know, people don't even trust Coinbase right now until maybe this ETF comes
out.
Like, sovereignty is put in custody with, like, some, you know, relatively small cap compared
to the wealth of nations.
And I think that's kind of, like, where you're seeing different interests and different metrics
kind of starting to matter in terms of how they're sectioned off based on the relative
comp.
I think TVL is extremely important for sauna-based apps where the target is consumer.
I guess Ethereum just kind of needs to figure out a bit more, like, what exactly what it
wants to be.
Because it's clearly layer twos and stuff like that.
It's, like, a midterm solution, but not really a perfect one.
I just wanted to add, like, some color there relative to, like, the meetups you see in New
York and, like, institutional relationships there.
I mean, so, again, I think there are many, many different narratives from many different
constituents.
You know, quote-unquote institutions, like, okay, there are many different types of institutions,
right?
So you could have a company like a MasterCard or a Visa that is a quote-unquote institution
and they have, like, a very particular point of view of various things.
And then you could have an institution which would be, like, BlackRock, which is a different
kind of institution, which may be looking at crypto as just, like, a different asset
class.
You know, they're trying to, obviously, like, maximize, like, yield and returns because
they're effectively, like, a very large global investor.
And I think these are, like, you know, so I would just be careful by using, like, blanket
words like institution because there's, like, many, many different kinds of institutions.
Same as what I'd be very careful as saying, like, consumer.
So crypto-native consumer that is primarily focused on speculation completely agree that
they care about metrics like TVL and other, you know, relevant metrics.
But, like, everyday consumer, I think, could care less.
Like, I just don't think that's, like, a relevant metric to them because I don't think it really
matters to, like, an everyday consumer, which is ultimately the kind of person that we want
to have more of around here in these parts, you know, in the crypto wild, wild west, you
know?
So I just think that I also, you know, and I've said this before on, I think, you know,
in any year space and maybe in other spaces, too.
But I think, you know, you know, on the Internet, there's the history of protocols is, like,
a really, really interesting subject.
And I think, you know, we're still kind of, frankly, pretty early in terms of the development
of this idea of, like, protocols on the Internet that are open and permissionless and are, like,
the value, the future value layer of the Internet.
Like, I think having the idea of the value layer of the Internet, I think, is 100% the
right idea.
I think that, you know, perhaps there's, like, some missing functionality from the existing
versions of that.
And there's many different design decisions and trade-offs that are made.
Like, I've been very public of my criticism of Arbitrum, for example, because Arbitrum
is basically closed source.
You know, everyone knows that they use, like, the BSL, which is the business software license.
It's not open source at all.
If you want to fork off from, you know, off-chain labs, like, you have to call them and get a
license, you know, and probably pay them a lot of money, right?
And that stands in front of all.
You know, they're, like, farking, they're for, not farking, you know, they're, like, not
forking, but they're making an L3.
Have you heard about that?
No, I don't really follow the internal work.
They're making an L3 upon themselves.
Zen can chat on that later, but I didn't mean to completely butt off.
But it's just, you're right, 100% on all fronts.
Yeah, yeah.
And so what I always like to think about is I always think about, like, okay, what are
the characteristics of ultimately, like, the winning protocol?
And so, like, okay, decentralization matters only because it's about control and trust,
right, and actual permissionlessness.
You know, if something is not decentralized, then what ends up happening is whoever controls
it can change the rules on an arbitrary basis, right?
So that's the primary criticism for something like base, right?
Base is just controlled by Coinbase, and it isn't decentralized at all, and they don't
have a token.
So it's hard to imagine how it becomes decentralized.
And so what that really means is that it's not to say that Coinbase is wrong or bad or
anything like that.
It's just simply to say that you just have to acknowledge that they can change the rules
of the road anytime they please, right?
And that's the accepted part, just to be clear.
Like, that's the accepted part by participants that you are sacrificing decentralization in
an effort for speed and security, right?
Like, that's the...
Well, no, you're actually, you're also ultimately sacrificing security.
You know, because there's no fraud proofs on base either, right?
So there's...
So what you're doing is you're using a system that is, like, run by Coinbase.
And ideally, you know that.
But the problem is where it becomes insidious is that you, you know, ultimately use an application
where you don't know that, which is, like, a real problem.
But anyway, back to my final point, and then I actually have to leave.
But I think that the, in my opinion, and this is, like, one random internet nerd's opinion,
like, the winning characteristics of a protocol are, is, like, number one is decentralized.
So, like, meaningfully decentralized because that means that it's not controlled by anybody.
That means it's truly permissionless.
That means it becomes a public good or has a higher probability of becoming a public good.
Number two is open source and highly permissive license so that people can fork off, run
experiments, and do various things with it as they desire.
I think that's really important also in terms of trust and building trust in these systems.
Number three, I think that they need to be accessible.
Like, that's my primary criticism of proof-of-stake is that proof-of-stake systems are actually
not really accessible at all because there are only three ways to acquire proof-of-stake tokens,
right?
You can only, like, either you're an early investor or you farm an airdrop or you buy
a bag.
Like, there's really no other way to get proof-of-stake tokens.
So, I think that's, like, a fundamental, like, failure and problem with proof-of-stake.
And then four, I think that they need to be, like, low cost, you know, to use.
Five, they need to be high performance.
And six, I think they definitely need to be default confidential at minimum peer-to-peer
because, again, I just think that if you really zoom out and think about, like,
the tens of trillions of dollars of value that move around the world today, like,
if you actually stopped and thought about it, you'd realize that it all exists.
It all is already default confidential peer-to-peer.
It doesn't matter whether I'm buying, like, an item in a Zynga game or whether I'm spending,
like, money with a credit card in an airport or whether I'm sending money, like, you know,
via Zelle or wiring money or, like, whatever I might be doing in my day-to-day life.
Like, all those transactions, at least on a peer-to-peer basis, are default confidential.
So it's hard to imagine that, like, the winning protocol doesn't at least offer that on a
default basis like we already all have.
That's end of soliloquy.
Fair enough.
Onyx blockchain by JPMorgan Chase.
Yeah.
That's fair.
That's fair.
I will say there are some parts, like, I don't know if actually, personally, I would say
the not, like, for example, I don't know if my primary chain, I would actually prefer
to be default private.
I'm not sure on that.
I want to say maybe.
I don't.
That's weird.
I think that's probably, like, probably on a person-to-person basis how they feel about
that.
Wait a minute.
I don't know if that's great or bad.
Are you okay with me being able to use, like, some form of block explorer to see, like,
all of your personal transactions in your daily life?
Like, how much you spent on lunch today and how much you spent on tuition at law school
and, like, how much you spent on books and, like, every last thing you do, you're, like,
cool with that?
You're just, like, cool with that?
Probably not every last thing.
But then, again, I don't use blockchains for every last thing, nor do I anticipate,
at least for now.
But I wouldn't be shopping for the next five years.
I understand.
But, again, I want you to be, like, futurist here and just imagine if we're creating the value
layer of the internet, if this is, like, ultimately going to be as heavily utilized as TCP IP is
today, which is essentially cornerstone on the internet, then what if you do live in a
world where, like, the CBDC you're using, the future digital dollar is just trackable
in that way?
You'd be cool with that?
Don't think about just being a degen now.
Like, I understand it's easy to look at blockchain today and just think about being a degen today.
I want you to zoom out and think five, ten years in the future with, like, the new next
generation digital dollar and it existing on fucking, say, Arbitrum with the existing,
you know, non-privacy scenario.
Would you be cool with that?
If it was my primary day-to-day, everything, literally everything that I do, blockchain,
then no, I would probably prefer a default private, at least for peer-to-peer.
Okay.
So then, and that's my point, is all I'm suggesting is that it just requires you to kind of zoom
out and think in the future.
I understand today, you know, where all we're kind of doing is, like, buying JPEGs and, you
know, like, trying to make money on meme coins and, you know, trying to, like, you know,
PVP each other, you know, on DEXs and, you know, I mean, that's basically the primary activity
today.
Like, yeah, you're like, well, that doesn't really touch my daily life.
That's my crypto life.
So it's easy to look at it and go, doesn't really matter.
But I want you to zoom out and think big picture.
Like, I literally talked to someone, you know, last week who's working on the Brazilian CBDC.
You know, the country of Canada posted a fucking, you know, poll asking citizens, what are the
most important features for a CBDC?
And 90,000 Canadians responded with the number one thing was actually privacy, right?
So I just think we need to kind of zoom out and think about how this technology is going
to be used, what the implication of it is.
The implication of it far exceeds flipping JPEGs.
Also, while we're talking, just to just to know, I guess we've been fighting ETH too
hard because it just took a massive dump.
It was just straight down.
Everything took a dump.
Yeah.
I didn't want to mention it because I know you don't like to get too much into, like,
current, like, market conditions, but literally BTC, Solana.
It's like a red line down.
It's vertical.
Pepe's down 20%.
Well, that's actually how I noticed it too, because I was actually tracking Pepe and like
somebody dumped $200,000.
I'm like, something has to be going on.
That's funny.
You don't think it has anything to do with end of the year and taxes?
Why today?
Dude.
You know.
They just left Basel and they had to pay their bills.
No, no, no.
You know what it is?
DC Investor had a great point about this.
He tweeted about this the other day and it was perfect.
It was exactly the kind of thing that I've been saying this for a while and he also voiced
It was spot on.
The market, the market does not react.
Okay.
At least as far as I can tell, the market tends to not be reactionary.
It tends to be of its own accord and people will ascribe it to events.
Like they'll say, you know, the market wants to, or the market went down because this politician
said this or the market, hold on.
The TDA fell down.
I'll get them back up in a second.
The market, you know, wants to go, went down because of this happened or this thing happened
and that caused ETH to go up and the pudgies, whatever.
Like there's a million reasons why people.
Sam, what was it like this time of last year?
I also think it was just relatively like extremely high funding rates.
So it's not, it wasn't necessarily.
So what I'm trying to say is the market will act of its own accord.
It will do its own thing.
And then people say, oh, it was because of certain events.
But the reality is it's just a market doing its own thing.
Like it's not any events necessarily that have caused it.
People look for a narrative and they retroactively apply as opposed to this looks like some whale
or something.
Do you guys think like, are there individual players who are big enough to just like send
the market down 5% with a big move?
Because that's kind of what, I mean, like stock futures didn't budge.
Yeah.
I mean, this is, and this happens all the time.
I mean, if you look at the one year chart or I'm sorry, one month chart, you know, we're
still up like 40% across most coins.
Right, right, right, right.
But still, this is brutal.
I'm like, I'm looking at coin markets.
The problem is we're at that stage of the bull cycle where people are updating their
wealth on their like Google Doc once an hour and then this just starts to hurt.
But if you look at any like big picture, this is just kind of like crypto being crypto.
It only hurts if you're using 100x leverage on a perp dex, guys.
Otherwise, it's fucking a non-story.
You don't do that?
No, I never trade like that ever.
5x leverage still hurts a little bit.
Just saying.
Spoken like someone that's incurring some pain.
I mean that with love.
But dude, it's like, yeah, this is, it's crazy.
We're actually right now looking at, I was just distracted for a moment.
I apologize.
In the meantime, let's just keep things rolling.
Plottsky, what's going on?
Sorry.
Hey, Eddie.
Hey, what's up?
Can you hear me okay?
Loud and clear.
Okay, thanks.
So two things.
Just from what Naveen was just saying, I don't see a future that that could ever, ever be the
possibility, I think even if everyone was using blockchain to make payments, unless it was
completely like government controlled, there'd be no way that you'd be forced to not have an
anonymous, like an anonymous wallet.
You could have a public wallet and you could have an anonymous wallet for like purchases you felt
were sensitive or that you didn't want people to see what your everyday was.
Um, just like people do now, like most people, that's not what people do now.
You don't, you don't have to decide whether to make a credit card transaction, private or public.
It's a default private Plottsky.
I'm saying in this future you're talking about, you could.
No, but I don't, I think, I think that again, like the future you were saying was very linear.
Like everyone has to do this.
Well, you could have a private option and a public option.
Well, that's called optional privacy and that actually doesn't work because what happens is then
people start making these claims of like, oh, well you, why did you hide that? Or do you have,
what do you have to hide? Right? Like I think, I think privacy is a basic human right. And frankly,
it's an even enshrined in the U S constitution. So I think the idea that we want to normalize
optional privacy is also not the right thing to do. All I, the only point I'm making, and like,
I'm not some like ethical morality scholar here. I'm only making a point that look,
we already got what we got. Like, you know, we can complain and bitch about TradFi all we want
in this universe. But one thing you have to say about it is that it already is on a peer to peer
basis, default confidential, right? That's already what we have. So the only point I'm trying to make
is why would you want to design a system in a future that's worse than that for people?
Okay. I kind of came in, I just got here before I came up. So I probably missed the beginning of what
led into everything you were saying. Um, the, the other reason I raised my hand was just something
like, I know there's usually a big divide between people who want everything to completely be
decentralized and then people who don't mind and the people who want everything to truly stay
like decentralized, get very upset about any other option. But I think if, like you had said,
if we want it to grow and we want more people to utilize this technology, then again, like you have
the choice of what you want to do. If someone's comfortable with using a wallet that they don't
control, that is a way for them to start learning what this is. And then if they choose to be more
advanced and to take things more in their own control, they will. Like it isn't again, like an
either or it isn't like if people are using the Coinbase wallet, they can never learn about what
the centralization is and being in control of your own, you know, money and, and move out of that.
So yeah, there needs to be like easy ways for people to come in for sure.
Yeah. I mean, look, I think ultimately like the best user experience generally wins and the best
user experience means the user experience with the least friction. So if people are pro decentralization,
they ultimately need to just recognize that and say, all right, well, how do we create an even better
user experience that happens to be decentralized than the centralized stuff? Because users are users are
like, that is a ruthless decision that users make consistently and reliably. They will just pick
whatever's most convenient and like easiest to use. And then the only thing, other thing I'll say is
that I'll say like, look, you know, TCP IP as a protocol suite has like faded into the background.
Like most people don't realize that, you know, whenever you visit a website, you're establishing a
connection between your client and a server. There's a three-way handshake that happens.
You know, you're like resolving an IP address when you type in www.anydomain, you know, there's like a
DNS resolution that happens. Like nobody really pays attention to all this shit.
In terms of how the internet actually functions, because it's all successfully obfuscated and faded
into the background. And I think there are ways to like essentially make more decentralized things
fade into the background that way over time. So, you know, I believe that decentralization is
valuable from a permissionlessness and trust standpoint. Like I would never, could you imagine
a world where you have to like call Coinbase to get their permission to like launch an app on base?
Like that would just be shit, right? And I'm not saying they're going to do that. I'm just saying like...
That is actually currently the situation with Blast. Like if I want to potentially build there early, I would need to...
Yeah, I mean, well, look, I'm just saying, I'm just saying like that would defeat the purpose of the whole thing, right?
Like that's no different than calling Facebook and getting their permission to launch an app on Facebook, right?
Like it's the same shit. So, you know, that's where decentralization and permissionlessness have a lot of value
because it's about accessibility. It's like, oh, now everybody... I mean, it's about a lot of things,
but it's also about accessibility. It's like, oh, I don't need anyone's permission to deploy an app on
Ethereum or Solana. I can just fucking do it. If I'm willing to pay the fees, I can just fucking do it.
And that's obviously incredibly cool and that's incredibly powerful and that's like pro-freedom
and all those wonderful things. So that's really what that's about in my mind.
So two things. One, this is just because I'm bringing up double. Double, I request that you are reasonable.
Okay, that's it. That's all I request.
I'm always reasonable, too.
No, you're not always reasonable. That's just a fact.
In the meantime, again, one of the problems, this is one of the...
We were just talking about ETH and scaling ETH. Dude, right now, GAS is absurd.
Can't use it. Can't use the chain.
Is that why I'm having trouble getting this ETH transferred to my account right now?
Yeah, it... GAS...
Because I sent some stuff from Coinbase to one of my wallets and it's not in my wallet.
And I'm like, I've done this a thousand times. I'm not stupid, right?
Yeah, GAS is just high.
Okay, so I'm just sitting there waiting for the thing to fucking send.
Let's actually see what the current GUE is. Let's see. GUE is on...
105.
105.
Wow.
I mean, you have to pay to play, right?
Shut up.
Yeah. Okay.
Bro, like, seriously.
Who's gonna secure the network?
It's so fucking...
He's just messing with you, Jonah. He's messing with you.
No, I just wanted to jump up really quick because I heard you talk about Blast.
I mentioned it.
And you said that you can't really build on it because it doesn't exist, right?
I mean, it's an EVM, so you can...
Yeah, so you can...
Like, I'm building something right now.
You can build an EVM, but you can't...
I could build any...
Yeah, I could build an app that's EVM-compatible.
The developer docs are not available until later this month, according to their Discord.
I could put it on base.
Like, if I could take...
Right, but you can't...
I could have it running on base.
And also, to be clear, there's a difference between building something on EVM and waiting
for Blast to deploy, and then being in the situation like that there's a one Perpetualist protocol
that's launching on Blast basically right away, and they have already been retweeted
by the primary Blast account.
So there's definitely a difference.
There's definitely a difference.
Yeah, the cool thing about Blast that I was reading on their Discord is, like, they said...
I don't know how true it is, but they're basically saying that, you know, whatever you build,
once it's launched, you know, all that money that's sitting there in TVL is basically going
to be, you know, you're basically playing for that money, right?
Like, you build something there, and there's also going to be some kind of, like, I don't
know how the rewarding or whatever the yield is going to be, but that's the potential of
that chain, right?
Like, there's some kind of inherent yield.
Yep.
That's why it's cool, and that's why it'll do well.
It'll make people money.
Simple as.
Like, it's not a complex...
What if I told you we took their money and put it back in their wallet?
It gave them, like, five bucks.
I'm a little lost there, but I'm not going to ask too many questions.
Nothing.
I don't know.
I'm sick.
Keep her eye on him.
Just keep going.
I was going to say that all the people who are in this space put money into it, looking
for yield, but it's just their own money.
But wait, wait, we're talking...
Aren't we talking about the second most valuable block space in the world?
Ethereum?
Ethereum?
Yeah.
Yeah, we are.
Yeah, comparing it to, like, Bitcoin, which is the single most valuable block space, and rarest
garrison block space.
I mean, we weren't really...
So if you want to use it, you have to pay.
If you wanted to...
That's how it works.
...pay that.
Sure, sure.
We've been selling digital land all along.
So if you want to use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use it, you can use
