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Experiences that WOW!
Recorded: May 1, 2024 Duration: 1:03:48Space Recording
Full Transcription
all these things. And it literally gave me a leg up when it came to digital assets. Once
NFTs came about, I didn't need time convincing that, oh, these things were going to be here for
the long term. I'd already seen it. Through my whole childhood, I'd already seen people attribute
real value to these digital assets. So I needed no onboarding into this space, unlike a lot of
people that I've met. And it was just an immediate leg up for me. Creative Ed, I saw your hand
or I saw your 100% go there. Any takes on what we've talked about so far? Anything you want
to add to the conversation?
Hey, can you hear me well?
Yes. Yeah, you come through loud and clear.
Awesome. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, I was hearing everyone talk
and I agree with a lot of the sentiment and there's a lot of wise things being said. One
thing that it made me think about is something that I think will, I would say, at least could
have the potential of changing things a lot of how we move through the world is AR and VR.
But particularly AR in what we're seeing with Apple Vision Pro, for example.
Some of the unique features that I saw on it and actually kind of raised an eyebrow to me
was the ability for you to kind of have your unique, let's say, virtual space.
But not only in terms of like adjusting, let's say, the visual space around you, but actually
like setting certain like apps into a physical space.
So as you may know, with Apple Vision Pro, you can, for example, get a screen or an app
in a 3D, you know, in the 3D environment.
So on the physical world kind of, it's there.
And if you leave the space and you look away and you come back to it, it will still be there.
So I can see like the potential to, at some point, you can go, you can be at home, for example,
and you have your own virtual computer that's only visible through your VR set or AR set.
And then you, let's say, you go to your, you go to work and you have a different type, you know,
you have different apps there.
Completely different, completely different, quote unquote computer.
But it's only you who sees it.
No, nobody else sees it.
So I really like where things are going in that direction.
I just don't, you know, I think that the major hope that needs to be, I would say,
I'm missing the word, that we need to go beyond.
It's like to make the hardware smaller.
You know, I just feel like the hardware isn't really there yet because it's heavy, it's big.
But I can see this being a really great way forward into the future.
Yeah, I love that take.
I love where this is going to take us as well in terms of the conversation.
For me, completely agree.
And like, it's not just how big it is, but it's also, you know, like the power is like two, three hours.
These things can last for.
And there's definitely some like early days, like issues that we need to get past.
But yeah, when they're contact lenses or even glasses, I think it's just going to open up a whole new world.
I can see, you know, Metropolis World and other like digital asset creators who are building out these metaverses.
I can see how that's going to bridge into the IRL.
In my head, I've got like almost reward.
So think like Pokemon Go, but you're just wearing these glasses, wearing these contacts, whatever it might be.
And say you need to get to the gym, but you don't want to get to the gym.
Maybe Metropolis World has like a dope IRL virtual hoodie that if you get to the gym and it just location tracks you, then you get on and you get that hoodie.
But only if you get there.
And all these things, like I don't know why my mind just randomly went there.
I don't know why I'm sharing this.
Maybe this is, you know, some subconscious reason I need to get to the gym more, but whatever reason, that's where my mind went.
Carrie, I saw your hand fly up there.
What's your take on this?
Yeah, I mean, if we're talking, hopefully the question is still what is experience beyond gameplay?
Certainly, I used to work at an intrinsic in-game ad tech company called Frameplay and loved it.
And I think there's an incredible world within gameplay.
But when you think about gameplay, I actually think about a good friend of mine, Nicole Lazaro's framework called Four Keys to Fun.
I don't know if you've ever kind of read her work.
She's incredible.
She actually first launched this framework at the Game Developers Conference in 2004.
And it was based on this concept of why we play games.
And I think the question of why, because remember we talked about that generational, the generational bands that have just grown up this way.
This is now they are hardwired in terms of playing games, but they're actually hardwired to do a lot more things.
And in her framework, I really love how she kind of puts together some of the things within gaming that we can then take inspiration to answer the question about, you know, what's beyond gameplay.
She talks about social bonding.
Check.
You know, that happens in games, but outside of gameplay and these virtual experiences, 100%, we just talked about that.
We talk about this idea of a vehicle for imagination as another one of her areas.
And certainly, whether it's metropolis or other areas within the VR, AR, you know, metaverse type space beyond gaming, absolutely.
It is a vehicle for imagination, not only for the people who are creators, but also the people who are just experiencers.
Um, and then I think that it provides a new definition for meaning and value, um, when it comes outside and you were just talking about value, meaning remind me, save time, you know, do those things that make my life easier.
Um, but there's other meaning and value, you know, beyond that, whether that be entertainment, sharing, inspiration, et cetera.
Um, and then of course the idea of, she calls it mastering the brass ring, um, meaning you're going to want to achieve something, either you're going to achieve something like gameplay, or maybe you're going to achieve a loyalty point.
So you can buy things with a coupon or whatever.
Um, and so I, I always go back to her framework as a way to think about, um, these, these environments, understanding, you know, how people think about the environments because different people think about them for different reasons.
So that, that's what came to mind for me.
That, that was a masterclass, Carrie.
Thank you so much.
I'm loving having you on the show and four keys to fun.
Nicole Lazaro was, was that, am I right?
Did I get that right?
Um, yes, please Google her, give her love.
She's actually got, um, this amazing, um, game that she's, um, kind of developing, been developing for a while and it's called follow the white rabbit.
And she's just, I hope I got the title, right.
Um, and I'm, I'm a super fan, so you should definitely become a super fan too.
Oh yeah.
It's, it's already in my Google.
I'm definitely going to have that, have a look at that and I might have to DM you if I love what I'm reading.
Uh, this is, yeah, yeah.
I love this.
I love these spaces.
You learn so much.
My learning curve in this sort of space.
It's, it's just unbelievable.
Um, look, let's, let's move this on though.
So, um, really love what your, your take was there.
What I want to move this into is how do these, like it, it almost, we've organically gone with the conversation.
It's almost led to the fact that we're seeing a margin in between digital and IRL, you know, we're talking about VR, we're talking about AI, we're talking about these things that make the digital almost support the IRL more.
And also, you know, carry what you mentioned earlier about like, we're having generations now grow up with these things where it's just second nature and they don't really distinguish.
You know, it's not like, um, you're hitting a computer in the same way.
Like it's just, you're going to see your friends virtually or you're going to see them physically.
And I think the distinction when you've grew up in that world is a lot less than what we sometimes perceive if we've, you know, experienced where there was no world with that like level of quality, that level of digital.
So my next question for you guys is how does the like virtual worlds that we're building right now that we're seeing evolve, how do they differ from like an analog experience?
Um, Dr. Tomato, I'm going to throw this one back to you first.
Any take on this?
Um, yeah, I mean, that's a, for me, maybe I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate because I'm not like, I think they're completely different.
I think, um, they're almost not that similar in any way apart.
Like they, I'm not saying they don't do amazing things.
They say like the experiences that, uh, Roy was talking about with the VR, uh, the Apple VR stuff.
That's amazing.
And like this stuff is all really good, all the augmented reality.
But I think if you look at it, like you mentioned earlier, Jack, you wanted to get home when you were a child and like jump on Xbox live.
And I think I'm from a similar generation to you because I used to do the same thing and we'd jump on Xbox live, but that was to play a game.
But then it's like, if I wanted to like go play something in real life, play a sport or that kind of thing, I'd go outside.
And this is where I think the difference between the virtual world and the analog world, I think it's just, I just, it's going to be so hard to make it that real, to give yourself that tactile feel.
And I know we can change what we see, but like it's, it's being in the world that I think it's just so different at the moment.
Sorry, probably not the answer you were hoping for there, but.
No, I love it. Bring in the hot takes. Disagree. Look, one of the main mantras for any of the shows that we run is disagree without being disagreeable.
You know, like by all means, let's make sure this conversation is genuine.
Like, and I really, really love this take. I think, look, we spoke about Disney earlier and like what, what, what they're building.
So I got a bit of a feedback there from the mic. I think, yeah, it's, it's miles away.
You know, it's, it's worlds away in terms of, I don't think we're going to see this in the next two years.
I'd be surprised if we saw it in the next five. I think AI is just speedlining everything right now.
So who knows? Like, I think timelines are going to definitely reduce as that functionally reduces.
But I, I do, I'm trying to think back to, yeah, that those Xbox live moments, there was definitely IRL experience,
but I think the friendships and that were like cultivated, if you didn't have an Xbox in my social circle,
like it actually impacted your IRL. Like the events, I mean, go, you go.
Yeah, no, I agree completely. There was a whole like Xbox or PS4 thing.
Yeah. And, and, and that's the thing. And like, you know, you went to school,
but like it literally encompassed your, your IRL because it was like, oh, they're the Xbox people.
People, people had to, you know, tell their parents to get the PlayStation back to get an Xbox.
It was a whole thing. And I think that side I can see evolving very, very quickly. I think we
already see it with the younger generations, but in the longterm, you're right. I don't know where
we go from here. Carrie, you've had some really different takes. So I'd love to bring you in on
this question. How do you think it differs from the analog experience, what we're seeing virtually now?
Yeah, totally. And I, I agree with the last comment for sure, but I, the, I go back to the
generational thing because it is such a huge influence on how people think and behave. Of
course, there are, there are, you know, uniquenesses within that. But if you think about millennials and
especially Gen Z and what I said about how they value visual and social communication and they're
natives to that, you know, they're just behave very differently. They're native to the fact that
they have a digital representation of themselves and understand how the world of digital blends with
the physical world. They understand it because they're native to that. So I think, I think that
the analog experience, if that's what we're talking about, you know, how is it, how does it different?
Um, I think about generations that have grown up on Snap and what Snap has been doing to help, um,
help these kids basically who are now young adults, uh, think about, uh, AR and overlays without
actually thinking about AR and overlays, um, you know, or even Pokemon Go, you know, an entire
generation grew up understanding that, and that both of those things are digital experiences,
you know, with an analog world. So I believe that they, um, they blend for those generations. Um,
those are the ones we should care about because they're the ones that are going to, you know,
grow up, make money and pay the bills. Um, and I do believe that, um, they're going to, um,
someday very quickly understand that they need to be in control of their own personal identity online,
even more so than they are now. Um, and I think that moment will come quickly. Um, and I think
they're going to be very protective of that personal identity, um, their private space versus their digital
space. Um, when I grew up, I didn't have to worry about this. Now they have to. So I think there's
a lot to unpack when it comes to differing from analog experience, but those are the top of mind
things I think about. Yeah. My, my mind went to social media from that, Carrie, which is like,
for me, I was fortunate enough that my like younger years, social media wasn't a thing. And there's
two sides to that coin though, which is like through like hardship through like making mistakes where
that hits your socials when you're younger. I think you learn so much more, like just like
your learning curve when you make mistakes is so much more than when you, you know, you get
successes. And I think that's exactly what I think about with these like people growing up now is
they've lived their whole lives digitally. They must've learned so much faster. They would have
made way more mistakes because they're literally growing up learning from those mistakes. So yeah,
I think, I think I'm with you. I think if I think back to myself and how quickly I got wrapped up
into digital, you know, as I was explaining before, how that really gave me almost like a headstart when
it came to NFTs and crypto and understanding how digital could still mean real value. I think like
the kids growing up now where they see VR, when they say, see AR, I don't think we can actually
fathom like how much those two worlds are going to combine. And Vanya, I saw your hand fly up for a
second on Kyrie's points there. Did you have a take yourself? Yeah, no, I absolutely agree about
the digital blending with the real world. And it's funny because, you know, I spent seven years of my
life building a real world experience in it. And many people called it like a video game was like a
hero's journey or, you know, some people said it was almost like you put on VR goggles. But instead of
putting the VR goggles, you actually went and built it like we built the environment. And, you know,
it's fascinating because we we had kids ages, you know, from four to about 10. And they would very
easily, you know, interact with real world actors, but then digital characters on the screen that were
as real as the actual actors that were there, you know, in the flesh, they would, they would collect
these things called sparks, which were also digital, but they really prized them. So even like the sort
of leveling up in the experience was digital. So it was this amazing play between, you know, digital
and real world before, you know, we, I even knew what a metaverse, before metaverse even existed. But
I do think the future, you know, really does lie in that. How do you bring the two together in a
seamless way in a very accessible way? You know, we're big believers of 2.5 D where you can kind of
pop in to your virtual environment, but pop back out. And, and I think that's sort of whoever can get
that right, that blend, I think that's where the magic is. I completely agree. I think, look, if you're
in web free, your time is so constrained that if that doesn't happen, if you don't see that merge
for the two, then one's going to be left behind and it's going to be the fun, like, uh, at least,
you know, when, when we're professionals and we're working 80, 90 hours, I think we need to
integrate the two. Otherwise, yeah, you're just going to lose some of that magic. And I think
you're going to desperately need it as well. So when the right project unlocks that, I think,
yeah, it's going to be an absolute game changer. I cannot wait to see it, but guys, look, we've
already hit the 20 minute mark left of the show and we need to get some more people in here
because these takes are just too much alpha to keep to ourselves. So let's get the likes,
let's get the retweets out there. And as I said before, if you want to bookmark the show,
means you can listen back to it later. You can clip, you can find any points that you
really enjoyed. Maybe it's just trying to find out what, um, you know, who Nicole Lazaro is for the
four keys to fun. There you go. There's a callback for you. So if you missed the earlier one,
hopefully you hit this one. Um, but look, there's just way, way too much going on here.
So let's show your support. If you've enjoyed the show, get those likes out,
get those retweets out whilst we move on this conversation. I think, look, we've talked about
world of Warcraft. We've talked about gaming a little bit. I think it's inevitable when we talk
about these two worlds joining, I think from, you know, the backgrounds from Dr. Tomato, myself,
like you just automatically start thinking gaming. So that's where I want to take this conversation
next. And specifically Roy, I'm going to bring this over to you first. Um, how do you think,
gaming teaches us about virtual experiences? Like, uh, like how does that work? What,
what does like gaming teach us about the virtual experiences?
Yeah. Uh, you think, I think gaming is probably, I'll try to work this out as I say it, but I think
gaming is a place where it's a low stakes environment where failure is allowed. And because failure is
allowed, that suddenly makes experimentation possible and experimentation can take form in
many different ways. So you can have social experimentation. You know, people can learn
how to forge, uh, friendships and connect with others. You can have, um, experiential experimentation.
So maybe you, you know, do a raid for the first time and you learn how to build a team and work
together with people. Um, and then there's, um, even let's say maybe personality experimentation,
you can experiment with yourself in a way that is non-destructive. You can say, Hey,
I'm going to be, I'm going to play as a female character, even though I'm like a guy in real life.
And I'm sure, I'm sure everyone here has had, uh, experiences with, uh, people who do, you know,
things like that. So I think I would say gaming is the place where it is somewhat of an, I would say
like, I mean, this is sort of an academic point, but it's almost like a simulation in a sense of,
of real life. Um, but in real life, the stakes are high. The stakes are essentially permanent.
Um, you know, you don't get to, you don't get a safe point. You don't get to go back. You don't
get to, um, try new things in, in a relatively low stakes, no harm environment, but online,
you know, those things are possible. And I think, um, especially in gaming where,
you know, it sort of includes the entire breadth, I think of human experience in the sense of
failure, defeat, trying things, learning, uh, maybe you have cooperation, maybe you have,
uh, war between factions. Maybe you distrust someone, maybe you really trust a friend,
maybe you get betrayed, right? All of these things can happen through the medium of gaming.
Um, and this is all just, you know, parts of the human experience, things that have been happening
for the last 5 million years. And, you know, we're taking this to a new, a new platform, a new stage,
a new era, but it's really a lot of the same things that we've been doing, you know, again, for,
since the dawn of human history. So I think gaming is the place where you can experiment with all of
these different things. You can learn more about the world. You can learn more about yourself. You
can learn more about others. Um, and, and I think it's, it's the most, it's the best way and the best
platform and the best medium to do it with, um, for sure. You can learn a lot of, you know, reading
books, but you can't really learn that much, um, you know, compared to, uh, what you can, uh, learn,
you know, building social bonds and doing things, you know, experiencing things for yourself. I
think, uh, there's a famous quote that Aristotle actually wrote. He was like, I really wish people
would stop reading all of my books and they would instead go outside into the real world and just
experience things for themselves. And I think the gaming, uh, world is a place where people can try
and experience things for themselves. So I think that's the benefit and the advantage of gaming in
particular. That, that was, that needs a soundbite Roy. That was incredible. Like there's, yeah, you
know, it's, you hear it in all these different formats, but essentially there is no reset button,
you know, and I think people see from that what they will, but I do find that when I have connections
with people in this space, it's because like, personally, I'm quite entrepreneurial. I'm also quite
like, I just want to try new things. I think we're all early adopters in this space. And the one thing
we seem to all have in common is we've definitely had exposure to gaming. And I do wonder, as you've
just mentioned there, if that's, you know, that can't always be a coincidence. Like maybe it is.
We just, we feel like we have a bit more of a finger on the pulse, um, or a finger on that reset button
where we're just open to trying more things because we know that, you know, there's, there is a reset
button in a sense, you know, we can't reset the whole game, but we can definitely still try new
things and failures don't mean that. So yeah, I, I love that take that, that was, that was really,
I really, really enjoyed that. Definitely get a soundbite on that. Creative Ed, I want to bring
you into this as well. How, how do you feel like the, uh, how do you feel that gaming teaches us
about virtual experiences? Um, yeah, I think that a lot of what has been said, um,
ties back into, into this, um, gaming definitely like, uh, it was said just now, uh, is, is a very
like safe way of you experimenting with things and go not only experimenting, but also go through
experience, experiences. And, uh, with that, like emotional experiences before gaming, you could kind
of have that with, with movies and, um, and, uh, books, but gaming offers you like the, the option to
explore different paths of doing things and kind of explore, um, you know, the way that you can,
you know, the way that you can do all of these experimentations that you want. Uh, but like, if
you're, if you're, uh, for example, I'm going through a storyline and you want to see, um, let's
say, uh, uh, what, what the emotional response of a character within the game will be to what you do,
uh, in that sense, you can, can kind of, uh, discover that through playing the game and repeating,
but also like if you, if you're trying to be a little bit more immersed into it, you can avoid doing
that repetition and just go naturally with the flow. But, you know, it offers you a way of kind
of simulating, uh, not only, uh, these experiments or these thought experiments that some games allow
you, allow you to do, but it also allows you to simulate like real, what you would say, like real
world, um, emotions. And throughout the years, um, there's, there's something that it, it seems like
it's kind of correlated to, to, to video games, although it's not like, no, nobody's really sure
about that. But you, we know that, uh, like, for example, the crime, um, worldwide, worldwide as kind
of, you know, going, going down. And a lot of it has been attributed to, to video games as, uh, as a
way, um, that people can use to, to, you know, get out there for frustrations and vent out. And,
uh, you know, uh, you know, in, in that sense, it can be quite therapeutic. So yeah. Um, what,
what gaming can, can offer you, uh, and people in general, it's really vast. It depends completely
on the game that, that you're playing. That, that, that's what's beautiful about, um, about these
medium is that you can explore it in so many ways that it's probably not going to be fully
explored for a long time.
Yeah. I think that's really interesting. I think my, whilst you were talking there and
a great take, but I think my mind, as you were saying, this was also it's taught me like
trust. Uh, and what I mean by that specifically is I, it's really weird, but for me, I trust a rank
on a game or like a skill by a player and we've got bots and things, you know, there's a, that's a
whole other debate. However, like in general, I am starting to trust more what I see virtually.
And, you know, you can talk about digital assets as well, NFTs, whatever, as opposed to what we're
now seeing virtually like in real life. And the example I would give would be, you know,
these Instagram stars, influencers, whatever you want to call them, posing with Lamborghinis
that aren't their own, showing you pictures of Rolexes that are fake, like all these like
moments and these things where you see stuff IRL. Now they're in jets that are cut in half
because they're actually in Hollywood and it's literally just for posing. And they get like
basically influences in every 15 minutes to just sit in a jet and get a photo.
That's actually not a real jet. All these things. And I think there's like a real turning
point we're seeing where virtual means trust. And especially with the blockchain and crypto
and everything that's coming with that, it's something where my mind just goes more and
more. And I think that's also why we're seeing, you know, new generations come in and just not
have those trust issues with people online, because you see it even worse when it's, when
it is IRL or perceivably IRL. I don't know. I feel like I'm ranting, so I'm going to move
this on. But yeah, just something that sprung to mind there. Dr. Tomato, Carrie, I'm going
to bring this next question back over to you both. And the question is, why hasn't virtual
and augmented experiences, why haven't they taken off, really taken off before now? And
I'll go Carrie first on this one. And then we'll throw over to Dr. Tomato.
I mean, I have three, three words, and then I'll say something more interesting. Compute power
expense. It's expensive. Compute power is expensive. The actual technology is expensive for the average
person when you think about, you know, that related to a cell phone. By the way, augmented
experiences, I'm going to separate those two things for a minute. Augmented experiences have
taken off. We've had them for a really long time in a lot of different form factors. But again,
I reference, you know, Snap has had it. Mobile, you know, shoppable things in store. Even,
even, even QR code, you know, during COVID even accelerated that. So I want to, I kind of want
to separate virtual and augmented. And I want to separate what we might think about in the gaming
world as augmented experiences versus just everyday augmented experiences. So I think they, they actually
have taken off in some shapes or forms. And yes, I think it's very expensive. And when you have things
that are expensive, it doesn't grow as fast as it could, could grow. But the price will come down
and the cost will come down. And the compute, you know, capability will continue to increase
and costs will come down on that too. So for me, it's, it's almost always about cost. The other answer
is about behavioral change. And so there's actually a framework that you can think about to understand why
people change their behavior. So why hasn't it taken off? And you can think about it in terms of three
different kind of high level buckets, motivational factors, ability factors, and external factors.
So motivational would be like, you know, do they have a need or desire for it? Is there some sort of
positive, negative reinforcement, et cetera? And the ability factor, is it hard? Do they have the
knowledge and skills to, you know, lean in and learn it? Do they make it easy? I mean, there's a
reason the R1 rabbit's like actually selling, which is so crazy because it's literally a, almost like an
analog version of a cell phone. It's because it's easy. And external factors, whether that be, you know,
social norms and pressure. Oh, I have a, you know, I've got the latest headset. You don't. Oh,
you're going to go buy it now. Or environmental cues. And like I mentioned, technological advancement.
So, so that's, that's the long winded answer. But my short winded answer is, you know, when things are
cheaper, people buy them if they, if they make them happy. Yeah, that's really interesting. I love,
look, it cost is obviously a huge, huge part of it. I do wonder, like it, I'm sure it was no
coincidence, but like Ready Player One, when that really like opened up a lot of people's minds,
it felt like VR and augmented reality really came alongside it. Like, I wonder how many people that
impacted in terms of like, who've been building since watching that, since their imaginations just
got blown out of the way. But yeah, I do see why cost, or maybe it's even just understanding that
that is of interest to like the general populace. And then, then these people who were building just
started really throwing the money at it. But I don't know why my mind went there, Carrie,
after that. But have you got any final thoughts? Is that the original, I mean, is that really the
original book? I thought it was Snow Crash. And, but, and that was like, what, like 1992? You know
what I mean? So it's like, there's a lot of, am I getting that wrong? No, no, I think you're right.
And I think, you know, like, there's a, there's a ton of other like movies out there, which like
virtual that, that I'm thinking of, but I don't know what it was about Ready Player One,
especially the film. Um, but it really, it just, it felt, it felt tangible to me, I guess. Like,
I really could see that future. Um, I don't know if it was just the graphics or maybe it was because
I was in this space at the time. So, you know, maybe something else is going on there. Um, but
yeah, definitely something that that's been scratching my brain. Like if it feel, it's probably
all just, you know, coincidence, but definitely feels like when that movie came out, then
everything started blowing up, augmented, virtual, we're seeing it all. But I do definitely agree
with your point that we have seen augmented and especially with like mobiles. And I think
we, we talked about Pokemon Go earlier and I don't know where about that sits, but you
definitely are seeing these things really blow up and we have done already. Um, Dr. Tomato,
I said, I'd throw it to you. So you get the final take of the show and hopefully it is a
great one because you are a doctor and illustrator. So I think we need to add a third tier to this
absolute trifecta, which is great, great spaces host, no pressure whatsoever, but what's your
take on why virtual and augmented experiences haven't taken off yet? Um, I mean, thank you
for that. The absolutely no pressure at all. And especially coming after Carrie, I mean, you
covered kind of so many things, uh, like I, I'm sitting there thinking, okay, yeah, I was
going to mention that and oh my God, but then, um, no, you, you, you absolutely smashed it. Uh,
like it's one of those things that's, it's gotta be, it's gotta be cool, right? You've got to,
it's gotta be fashionable. It's gotta be trendy. It's gotta get out of the hands of people that can
just afford it. Like, cause it is really expensive. It's gotta get into the hands of
everyone. Same thing is happening with like electric cars, right? Has to start somewhere
and then gets diluted down. It's the same thing with any new tech. Um, even going back to the first
cars or TVs or anything like that, you'll get there when it gets cheaper. And to be honest,
I think Carrie actually went through it a lot better than me. Uh, sorry, Jack, to end it on
not another thing, but honestly it will get there. We just got to keep hoping. Uh,
I put so much, I put so much pressure on you with that one, but look, you're a doctor and illustrator.
You knew that I wasn't, there's nothing else to say as well. Like, look, I'm just jealous. Okay.
Okay. I'm not a doctor and I am a terrible illustrator. Uh, I just had, I had to just,
you know, bring you down a peg. No, I'm joking. I'm joking.
No, no, no. That's fine. That's absolutely fine. I'm here. I'm here for it.
I love it. I love it. If you can't tell this is a bromance, that's filming people. Um,
absolute, absolutely loved the conversation today. Um, look, I think we're getting really
to the end of the show, but I do want to give my take on what you've just said, because I agree,
like it's actually got to be cool to use. Like it's got to be fun to use. Um, it's got to be easy
to use, but both of those things need to also include, it's got to be cool. Like for some reason,
especially, you know, generations beyond, no matter what generation you are, if it's not part
of that, like mass, if, if those, you know, if the kids aren't using it for whatever reason,
because it's not cool, you're just not going to get that adoption. Um, I do wonder where this goes.
I've seen both on the timeline, you know, with the Apple VR springs to mind where some people
are basically calling it out because you can see these people, IRL, just looking all sorts of
freaked out because they've got these big headsets on and they're just looking like they're doing
stuff they shouldn't be doing out in public. So like, I, I see that because I, I'm just like,
Oh, I'm not sure that's for me just yet. And I definitely, if I did have one, I wouldn't go out
in public with it looking like that. So the cool take is actually a fantastic take to wrap the show up
with Carrie, who has just been bringing the fire as have all of our guests today. So a huge shout
out to them. If you're not following these guys, if you've enjoyed the alpha, go show, show some
support to them, go show some support to metropolis world, because that's where you'll get the alerts,
all these shows in the future, all this alpha in the future. But final thoughts from me is just,
thank you so much. Everybody who tuned in, who's listened throughout the show. And thank you so much
to our speakers. Thank you. Creepy creams, Dr. Somato. We had shadow war. We've got Roy
Blackstone. We've got Carrie tilt. We've got Rania Ajimi, and we've also got creative ed with us.
Okay. I've made it that one people. I can see Rania's got the lappy faces out. So I'm going to
absolutely end the show here, but I really, really enjoyed this one. Thank you everybody
who's tuned in. I hope you've enjoyed it half as much as I have.
When I met you in the summer
So my heart beat sound
We fell in love
As the leaves turned brown
And we could be together, baby
As long as skies are blue
You act so innocent now
But you lied so soon
When I met you in the summer
There's no more
I'm going to wear out
You're on
So my heart beat
You're on
I'm on
I'm on
I'm on
You're on
I'm on
I'm on
I'm on
I'm on
I'm on
I'm on
