good morning everyone if you are one of the people that are going to be speaking today please throw up a hand
we got some requests here there's mike edena another ergo
guys how are you doing today
doing great how about you doing well man doing well trying to get all this stuff squared away
uh okay we've got another one from flux speakers
if we missed anybody guys just uh know who is on your team and just kind of add them in
um as you or let me know who to add in tell them to request as a speaker and then we'll we'll add them in
we're just gonna everybody else who is kind of filing in now we're just going to kind of give
this about a minute or two just so everybody can get settled in we can get all the king's horses
and all the king's men together here um people are allowed 10 speakers if i'm not mistaken
and just give me a solid uh just mute your mike uh in between just to make sure we don't get any
background noise for everybody so we got another request coming in oh there's
here's aletheum all right good guys there's another project added do we have anybody
representing kasba we have the ergo folks here looks like we got the kda folks here
aletheum is here anybody from kasba wait we got another request let me check this request who do
for some reason it's not let me see this sorry guys still uh still learning how to do all this
davey i'm going to give you co-host oh thank you you guys can hear me right yeah awesome okay invite
is sent so if you can just start adding in anybody that there's uh and adding in anybody on the
projects we get 10 spaces that you know fill them up and then we'll have to rotate as necessary
so we'll go ahead and get started a while it's it's about three minutes after we'll let everybody
continue to keep uh coming in uh excited for this today guys this is the space that you guys have
been asking about and the one that we've been planning on for a while now uh not only do we
have flux and um kda here but we have flux kda casper uh aletheum and what else i think we got
a couple more that'll be popping in and out so we got ergo here as well who ergo ergo yeah
sorry for whatever reason i think they're right beside me and i've forgotten sorry those guys
um so super excited to get going today um so a lot of people are wondering why we're doing
an event like this because these are all you know proof of work projects kind of you know you would
some people would consider them competition but i think what we have is opportunity so we see a lot
of tribalistic squabbling on twitter about how my layer one's better than your layer one or my layer
two is better than your layer two but what we really found is that we're all working for the
same thing the common good of blockchain and decentralization so i'm super excited to bring
everybody on today and really just kind of have a pow wow about what these different projects are
doing how they can work together and what we can do and the grander grander scheme of things
so what i'd like to do first off is just kind of go around the room and just introduce yourself
i'll start with me i'm i'm dan keller i'm the co-founder of flux decentralized compute network
let's just call it the aws on the blockchain uh davey
i'm uh davey whitlock i'm the chief business officer for flux
it's my job to reach out to other communities and other projects and other businesses to get
relationships going and see where we can collaborate so i'm i'm with you dan i think uh
we're not here to define we're here to build together and i think we we all are doing
something and i think we're all passionate on what we're doing here so i that's that's why
this space is so i think a welcome opportunity can i have somebody from the ergo team do an
introduction please sure i'm arminio um with the ergo platform uh work with the ergo foundation
and across a couple of different projects uh yeah my main goal is to try to build financial tools
with better assumptions awesome can i can i get somebody from the kda community to do an intro
mike yeah sure thanks dan uh this is mike harren i'm the chief marketing officer at cadena
um we are a proof of work layer one horizontally scaling chain web packed all that fun stuff so
thanks for having me absolutely dude hey you've been doing a gang buster job too of engaging in
the community it's been quite nice to see that recently appreciate that my friend uh somebody
from aletheum please hey this is mod from um from aletheum and we're also uh earlier one proof of
work like uh all of the other project that i've spoken so far and uh thank you so much for having
us and uh like like you said i think we're all aligned on the fact that collaboration is the way
forward yeah absolutely no doubt and i was calling i i was saying the name wrong because i watched
that movie the other night aletheum i don't know if you've ever seen it but it's pretty damn good so
sorry about that um okay casper do we have anybody from casper one
well i guess we get i guess we get to talk shit on uh casper then today because they didn't show up
all right so casper's mia go on twitter and start tweeting and say where are you guys at
if you're here and i'm missing you please ask to come up hey other thing too uh just a couple
little um a couple little items can we please get a like or a uh whatever x is now like and
i call it retweet but whatever whatever the hell the retweet thing is on x please just take some
time and do that uh let's get this out to as many people as humanly possible so what i did was i put
together some questions free for kind of like just generalized questions and we want to also
include the audience in this as well so we're going to do it a little different we're not going to
wait till the end and then cram a whole bunch of amas in so if you have a question as we're going
through this feel free to raise your hand davey's going to add you in uh and you can come up and ask
a question ask it to any of the projects or all the projects and we can respond to these things
so we're really excited to get input across the board so without further ado let's get going on
this i'm really super excited so tell me a little bit about the vision of your projects and i'm not
talking about the siloed isolated vision right let's let's think grand scheme where do you see
your project in the next five years and who are you working with and how so let's start with kda
and then we'll go to ergo after that and write down the line yeah no no worries at all um we've
actually we've actually sort of gone a complete brand and and strategy overhaul in the last five
or six months um so what we're really trying to accomplish is building out infrastructure that is
really really easy to use that allows human beings all over the world to build sort of the
internet that they envision build the digital future that they envision and give them the tools
to you know recreate the financial institutions the way they see fit um so from our perspective
right like we're really focusing uh right now on our rebrand um which is again all about human
beings and you know empowering them so uh you know what what we're looking at is longer term
infrastructure plays um redoing you know sort of uh you know banking systems looking at dapps
looking at how do we build our ecosystem out and uh you know really look at things five years 10
years 15 20 years down the road as that as that layer one that is scalable secured uh completely
decentralized and focused on the future excellent let's roll over to the ergo folks
sure so i would say our main focus is probably building censorship resistant protocols
cryptography operates well under certain assumptions right and so there are a lot of
uh infrastructures and tools and throughout the crypto space that have a lot of risk vectors and
the assumptions that people inherit so we're trying to build a network that's more hardened
whether that's from mining pools uh looking at how cross-chain transfers work looking at how
dfi is organized trying to create censorship resistant uh means of moving around finances
without opening additional attack vectors is probably the main goal of everything we do
excellent and if i could just add to that as well from the standpoint i think ergo is um
champions as well as that being done on the backs and the blood sweat and tears of community members
and community devs i mean we have a small team of core devs you know that operated from the start of
the creation of the chain and also are still around working but the majority of the stuff
that you see pumping out is by dedicated and amazing core um community devs that push this
thing forward so ergo and the ethos of that is a community driven chain that's owned and operated
by the community as far as i guess where would all of us be without our awesome community members
that's the truth thank you very much alephium you want to jump in there yeah with pleasure um
so actually a lot of the project that are here around us are has been a big inspiration for
alephium but really the main um the biggest driver behind the creation of alephium was to offer
an alternative to what you see in the space because the reality is that if you look at the
smart contract and that ecosystem today the majority of the industry is built
on the same technical foundation and again this is actually not true for the project that are
with with us in the space today but it's still true for the majority of the industry
and so what drove um and it means that all of those most of the industry is also inheriting
the same trade-off when it comes to decentralization and censorship resistance um but also um security
and uh we felt like some of those trade-offs that the that the majority
uh experience were unacceptable and we wanted really to show with alephium that by starting
on on different technological foundation you could deliver a network um and a powerful network that
um offered the best infrastructure for developers to build secured app um while retaining the
decentralization and the security offered not amongst other by the by the proof of work model
and i think one thing that we share also with ergo is um the use of the utx model which we feel
it's definitely underused in the space and can really lead to very powerful
application uh and new paradigm and defy finance and many other applications as well
excellent you know i'm sitting here listening to this and everybody's doing something to build
better right so um i think there's tons of opportunities for every one of these projects
to work together i call this the proof of work revolution and i think that we have seen over the
past six months to maybe eight months proof of work has really started to come on strong and
there's a host of reasons why um you know regulatory clarity uh the fact that people
are starting to see if hey if you can shut your blockchain down it's not necessarily a blockchain
salona um and so i think there's some real challenges there and the tried and true is proof
of work so i'm really excited to see where proof of work goes um a little bit about flux for
decentralized compute network if you can uh put it in a docker you can deploy it on flux
we run front ends back ends game servers wordpress sites you name it we can run it we also recently
have released our proof of use to work model which is um which is kind of codenamed uh flux core
it'll eventually the entire product will be called flux edge which will allow uh people to use ai
rendering um deep learning edge compute all that kind of good stuff so uh and why is that important
is flux really is being built to support products like the folks that are right here working together
to build out uh uh the technology model it's hard to call yourself decentralized decentralized if
your nodes run on aws or microsoft uh azure or google or something of that nature so we're really
working hard to make that happen so as we kind of went around the room and and heard all these
different inputs from all these different projects one thing i like to do is i like to shake things
up so this isn't going to be a normal uh space where we all just sit around and talk about how
awesome our project is what i want us to do is focus on how we can become better with the other
projects as well so what i'd like to do is i'd like to take a moment and to have each person from each
project express one other project why they like that project and why it's interesting to them
so i'll start uh i love all the projects that are on here by the way every single one of them uh
alephium is a uh is in our uh flux labs and we've worked with them quite quite a bit uh i love ergo
uh got got a lot of stuff going on with ergo they've been really good to us it's hard for me
to pick one so what i'm just going to kind of do is is talk a little bit about why i like kda i
like kda uh it and their scaling solutions and i think it's it's it's very unique uh what they're
doing um you know i as i said before i love all these projects i would love to go through each one
and say what i love about it but i would it would take me the better part of 10 or 15 minutes
i think that us moving into the next version of whatever that technology stack is going to require
scaling it's it's going to require interchange operability so flux working with ergo working
with kda working with alephium uh to build out that next version of of blockchain technology i
think is going to be unbelievably important so i like what they're doing there i like mike good dude
uh good project overall so um please do not focus on flux i don't want everybody to say
flux i want everybody to to to focus in on the ones that they're interested so mike if you want to go
next that'd be fine did mike go away did i scare him off yeah you might have scared him off
shit well i just gave him like a compliment he didn't even get to hear it so all right let's
go to ergo ergo who who what's the one project floating around in this ecosystem maybe on the
call today maybe not on the call today that you're really interested in no i would say at least on
the call um probably alph closing uh re-entrancy with uh their own evm is probably the most
interesting to me uh just watching you know how many compiler errors blow up or how many re-entrancy
attacks um end up creating well just plague and suffering on ethereum uh looking at that
attack vector being closed it's pretty interesting long term especially on a proof of work base
awesome that's good good good input there how about alephium what's your what's which project
are you thinking is uh one that you're interested in now granted you can be interested in all of
them but what's something unique that that other project's doing
yeah i can hear you i i unmuted i was talking i thanked you for your loving compliments and no
one could hear me so ah well now here you are it's all good no i was just welcome to commit their
spaces yeah they love to mess with you here no doubt uh no you know what i was what i was saying
is i'm new to the l1 space i've been here at cadena for about five months now and have been
pretty heads down um i've heard of all these projects uh i do respect the shit out of anybody
that is in this world trying to do what we're doing whether people view them as a competitor
or not um you know i do think you know flux and and cadena have some history together which you
know we're we're super proud of um you know and i really think that you know for me personally
again i don't want to i don't want to suck up to the teacher here but um i i definitely resonate
with with flux and and dan the way you sort of uh you know address things in the community and
in sort of the no bs attitude um but yeah i mean i i'm i can learn something from every single
person in here and you know from a marketing perspective right like there are no right or
wrong answers so um you know i look up to everybody on this panel uh and i study what you guys are
doing from a marketing perspective all the time so to keep up the great work it's always an
opportunity to learn awesome thank you sir i'll make sure that you get some flux later today
okay i'm just picking um okay we we get flux then when can i get some flux yeah uh alephium
if you're able to i just added jews to speak again um i'm trying to add you as a speaker
for god these you think with alephium you go ahead now you can speak
maybe nope you're still a listener yeah she was a speaker and then she dropped back uh damn it elon
damn it elon this has been like a an ongoing joke almost at this point for for many many months to
do this uh type of thing there she is yeah but these things are cool guys we're on the ground
level of this stuff it's pretty cool that you know we're watching these things grow um
how many uh how many views do you think tucker carlson gets with his latimir putin uh interview
i'm gonna go out i'm gonna say a hundred hundred and ten million views oh i think it's way more than
that way more than that can you guys leave me in the back yes alephia we can hear you oh cool
because i started talking a couple of times no clue i stopped working um should i jump back in
where i left absolutely cool so i i wanted to say a little a small word for about every project here
i think uh kadena did pioneering work on the on the sharding um and this is something that
we really uh admire i think ergo uh this is a project we really enjoy on so many levels i think
both from the technical approach um the way they build and their approach to the market i think
this is something that we really um again take a lot of inspiration from and i think uh on your
side flux your guys are um the way you support the proof of work ecosystem is honestly um very
humbling and we're super grateful for the way you support the ecosystem and give visibility to all
of the players in the space oh well thank you thank you and i think you know the one thing that
i have found with working with each one of the projects that are all in this space today is is
they all have the same ethos they believe in decentralization they believe in proof of work
they believe in creating the next iteration whatever proof of work looks like and which is
really exciting and we're all looking to solve problems and i mean that's that's the big thing
i think that's what it comes down to so one of the things that why we're having this space today
and like i said i like to be controversial sometimes or give pieces up there and and
chat about them is that we continue to see this tribalistic banter on x and i know we'll never
fix this because you know when you live in a world where your community has a voice sometimes
that voice can be skewed but what are you guys doing to kind of realign people to actually focus
on building out your project rather than some some of the the mudslinging that has been so
horrible in in uh blockchain and crypto and of the past so we'll start out with you alethium
um i think we what we do is that well the first thing is in our channel so the place that we can
actually have a little bit of control over we try to never let people you know talk shit about
other projects because i think there's value in everyone's approach and then we we try to
collaborate with other actors in the ecosystem no matter if they are if some may consider us
competitors and i think that whenever we try to because we're always asked for comparison
it's really hard to to avoid comparison we always try to to factually compare and not
give an a judgment or a value to this comparison to remain as neutral as possible because i think
that all of the approach are are valid and bring a lot of value to the ecosystem to the space
yeah i think you're right on there mike what about you man
did mike disappear again holy shit
okay so he talked yeah he did he dropped off erg we're giving him we're giving him uh uh a demerit
for shitty internet or it could be spaces i don't know uh erg what what what's your input on that
so um similar to alephium that we really foster a fully open conversation in any medium that we
have whether that be reddit twitter or x um uh telegram or um uh discord we have some pretty
amazing tools as well that allow crosstalk between all of them so it's very actually extremely rare
i think in the several years that i've been there i've banned somebody maybe once for shit talking
or porn and that's about it everything else is an open discussion and and i do realize that out in
the real world outside of the ergo bubble when when we approach other projects and we ask some
questions and we ask some hard questions and sometimes we're a little you know forceful
on that i can understand that comes off like that but that's how we communicate with each
other inside our channels we we question the usefulness we question people's motives we
question um the the project itself and we find that it makes for a better overall result in the
end so yes sometimes things can be a little abrasive when we speak matter-of-factly about
things and we ask questions but we're asking questions generally because we want to know the
answer we want to see how something ticks it's essentially taking apart the alarm clock when
you're six and getting it back together or not getting back together you know it could be a bad
situation or a good situation but it's always in the curiosity of knowing how something works
knowing the usefulness and knowing the motives behind it so we encourage that we encourage open
discourse and you'll you'll come into chat one time and you may see you know one project asking
another project like why did you choose to do this right out in the open and um and it happens
and we all discuss it and i think it makes us better as a community in that aspect but yeah so
we try to encourage that and then we do do some pullbacks about sanity checks when we're calling
people out of course it's easy to punch up uh in situations where um you know all of us for a moment
had higher tps than salana when they were down last uh the other day for a couple hours but um
but in all seriousness we try our best just to be honest with each other and open yeah i'm perfect
i'm perfectly fine with punching up against anything that's proof of stake so just so
everybody's on the same page i mean not i'm not necessarily talking shit about their projects i'm
just talking shit about the actual platform itself you know i don't think you have to reduce
decentralization without proof of work so i mean we need to almost get to the point where we take
our gloves off and we start calling those things out and the proof of work or proof of work projects
band together to really really push our i wouldn't i wouldn't say agenda but our agenda forward so
mike did you want to add anything in that yes my internet is good i just go on mute and then i
unmute and you can't hear me so i'm not muting myself for the rest of this so if you hear the
dog barking or me sneezing don't be alarmed um i wanted i wanted to echo what mod had sort of said
right like i like i do like to try to lead by example when it comes to these conversations
you know like i said earlier you know i respect anybody that's trying to do what we're doing
because i think we all realize how hard it is and how difficult um you know it can be uh you
know we all have strengths we all have weaknesses um but i think at the end of the day like you've
mentioned dan like there there's a lot of similarities and a lot of a lot of ways we can
work together so um you know we try to avoid that conversation in our official channels
we do like hard conversations we try not to get rid of anyone unless they're really crossing lines
but it's about transparency and i think that uh you know there's a lot from a transparency
perspective you know there's people that like us there's people that don't we have strengths we
have weaknesses and you know owning up to those i think a lot of times is what can sort of change
that conversation and you know i learned a long time ago if you want to change the narrative if
you want to change the conversation that's happening happening you have to be a part of it
and i think that all of the uh you know all of the chains here on this call do a really good
job of engaging and trying to change the conversation when it's not appropriate
yeah absolutely one of the things that we have seen with flux especially as we started working
with other projects so um you know hand in hand is the fact that almost always the project has
the best of intentions in play and the community has the best of intentions in play however
sometimes it can be quite challenging to get the message of the technology build and not have a
ton of focus around the asset prices you know so um and that honestly is crypto overall you know
it's difficult for a rock solid project such as flux um or really anybody on this on this call
to watch dog coins get added to coinbase and other platforms while we're sitting in the
background like building the next version of technology and the internet um it pisses me off
it's a mental health strain for sure i think it's a little funny it's just crypto baby
so i mean it's weird space uh at least like from my perspective with ergo uh i don't babysit
anybody right um what matters to me is the code that developers contribute whether they're
you know left right top bottom whatever uh you know their views their politics are if they build
open source code that speaks for itself yeah i got i got a second that as well i mean you know
let's take when the light bulb was invented i'm sure people were pissed that they were using it
nightclubs for nefarious things uh to light those things up so you know when we're building
the the the finance industry of the future here you're gonna have people utilizing it for for
whatever they can i always go to the old um the old saying that um that we do in the uh at least
in the architecture business you can build a structure and plan for landscaping however
you want to do it and however you think it should be done but once it's there and it's set in place
people are gonna cut across that sidewalk and burn a hole in the lawn because that's how they
want to do it they're gonna skateboard on this little rail that's one foot off the ground because
that's there to do it so they're gonna use whatever you build them and whatever you make
however they see fit so you know these crazy coins that are coming up as as joe armenio said
they they gotta make you laugh and shake your head but that's not gonna stop us from building
we're gonna keep doing it and the foundation is going to be there when these things are long long
gone hey man yeah those challenges are quite unique we're gonna kind of open the the form
up everybody can instead of doing the round robin like we have but let's just open it up we'll ask
the question anybody that wants to respond to it they have they absolutely can i think
david demir actually requested to have the floor so by all means you have a question david or
i think you want to share with the group here
would that be good he's my goodness pronouncing his name you got done mute yourself there buddy
okay well he's figuring that out i'll i'll respond back to my question as well um i think the big
challenge for us is you know as we kind of move through these ebbs and flows of the of the market
um i think getting comfortable with iterative technology and having your community understand
that it's iterative technology we hear a lot about people that complain about not fully
baked products but it's very difficult to have a fully baked product when you're building it from
the ground up as a matter of fact one of the you know the so we've heard about flux sorry guys
they need to come up with a way to keep calls muted or some shit like that is that you know
we build a lot in beta and alpha right so our products come out in alpha and beta and i think
the reason we do that mostly is is making sure that we have a rock solid project when it goes
to market uh for instance wordpress we we all last year we've been in beta on wordpress and
we're getting ready to pull the beta tag off and go full board now why didn't you do that why did
we spend a year in data um and you know a lot of people get pissed because they want to see
dropping technology but if we release this to go to market and people start deploying infrastructure
on our product and it sucks uh they're never coming back and by the way you're going to get
a massive knock for that as well you know crypto is half baked or blockchain is half big so i think
you know actually having fully developed projects or at least understanding things are in beta is
super important how do you guys handle that as well like you know that the demands put on you by
a community versus tech technology development i mean oh go for it i'm sorry i said i wanted to
to echo what you said i think it's really hard because especially in this space people are are
used to things going very very quickly but specifically for for everyone present in this
call what we're building is is infrastructure that is meant to be extremely reliable and secure
and this isn't something you can just half bake and and you know and you can you can match the
the pace of the price action that you see on the on the crypto space on the technological side
and i think this is something i don't know if there's a a solution to this except you know
um keeping your head down and building you know and being consistent with what you deliver no
matter what happens on the market and but it's but i would say it's important sometimes in in
our case we have adjusted certain priorities based on community feedback um for example we are
reducing our block time because this is something that has been um that we didn't foresee how much
people would ask for it because for us it wasn't necessarily as as important as it is to to our
community into the space so this is something that we have in some cases we have taken some
feedback and adapted a little bit what we're building um based on that that's that's interesting
too because we've we've heard a lot of people talk about the flux block time is there a technology
factor behind that or it's just a more instant settlement mechanism um so we will be uh
implementing uh the ghost protocol to reduce the block time so this is something that was pioneered
by the by the by casper and that is also used in ethereum um and the reason the the only reason
this isn't something we necessarily prioritize in the first place is because maybe internally we
have a big a better understanding of the difference between block time and finality and tps kind of
the difference between all of those things so we didn't feel like reducing block time was as
important um but clearly um in the space we've heard it very clearly that it was way more
important that we imagined and adapted the roadmap accordingly interesting yeah that's anyone else
have anything to add there i would just say my main intent in terms of everything i touch is
trying to make it a public good that people can run locally so if you look at the development
and testing process of that the more people that can touch it review it understand it end-to-end
criticize it the better it will be so in terms of like uh the development process um i think
having that emphasis on saying okay this is going to be an end-to-end open source public good
is definitely one of the biggest drivers of the ergo community and what it allows for is for
a lot of developers to come in play with touch review everybody else's work and you know i think
ideally um what uh we're trying to create is what i would say is liveness beyond the team right so
if i'm driving down the mountain and i don't make up down the road very well head of tree go off a
cliff whatever everything i've touched uh it's public so it's not necessarily mine
interesting who else has anything to add about that i'll add um so back to your original question
there if i think i can recall it correctly um all right it's it's it's brutal dealing with the
community not dealing but getting pressure from the community on why things aren't the way they
are and you know they're used to coming from some projects the projects i came to before ergo i
could go to a team and say you know why the hell aren't you doing this why aren't you doing this
why is this this way you're you're screwing us over what you know that kind of thing why when
all those all those things but with ergo at least it's a little different here and i'm sure i imagine
it's a little different with some of your projects too with being community oriented projects
is there's um you know when people come into ergo and they say why this why that
um we hope that it it plants a seed in their head that if something isn't the way i like it
then let's pick up on those open source frameworks that arminio just spoke about
and change it for ourselves and push something forward that is our vision and if it's popular
and it's good then more people will jump on and do it or more forks or more versions of it so
that's what we really really try to push for that there's nobody to come in and blame and point a
finger to and say why isn't this being done um it's a tough sell though to have people realize
that if they come in and start pointing fingers they should be pointing in a mirror because you
know ergo is essentially what you make it for that so so that's our tough that's our tough kind of
thing there when we have community members you know trying to point fingers and and that kind
of thing and we really just try to redirect and help them understand that ergo's really what you
make it amen brother and you know that's one of the things that i always say when somebody comes
in and starts to complain i'm like okay what have you done for flux recently nothing then shut up
you know what i mean like uh you know sometimes you got to be a little harsh because you do have
uh people that i mean they're focused on different um a different idea of the way the project should
go and they're not always the most productive productive but you know we it's our job as
community leaders to make sure that we make them productive and engage them as best as possible
so that kind of leads right into my next question because one of the things that i think has been
grossly lacking from blockchain based products is management and when i say management i'm not
necessarily talking about you know a ceo of a company but actually having like real senior
leaders who understand what's happening and the business models because yes we're decentralized
yes we're we're permissionless yes we are blockchain but i think the people that are working
on these projects definitely need to have some big business acumen to help them grow so how are you
guys handling almost like the the seniority deficit that is that is plaguing kind of blockchain
i would say in on our side probably the most important thing is just deliver tools right
uh one of the biggest benefits of proof of work is it's a flat network right uh everybody kind
of has equal access to potentially throw energy or computation at the chain and on the development
level um at least the core team and the vast majority of the community has tried to keep
kind of development access flat and sometimes you know in this space things get pretty siloed
or i would say a user's ability to access understand the assumptions that they are
inheriting understanding how frameworks work has too much senior age or let's say limitation of
access so in in in that sense i think it's a matter of looking at it like a operating system
right we want everything to be open we want to continually improve the development tools
documentation and ultimately deliver clear assumptions because people that are going
to be building financial products um on these systems at least in my opinion uh you know time
is going to show value in terms of the resilience of different frameworks so having a clear overview
of that is probably the most valuable you know when you're talking about like uh market access
and market making and exchange you know there's a lot of back dealing in this space uh you get
into black boxes that open up potential attack vectors and so i think shedding light is generally
a good disinfectant right um you know having open access to basically the entire ecosystem
uh i think is a huge driver for somebody new to come in uh pick up some of the tooling learn
what's possible potentially hire some developers and build a business so i i think that uh access
is ultimately going to be one of the biggest drivers long term because it allows for
technology to iterate faster excellent who else has input on that can you guys hear me
yes mike we you have returned oh hi mike long time no see i didn't unmute and you still couldn't
hear me i i wasn't muted in yeah i don't i don't know what the hell's going on ron's laughing at
me happy birthday ron um i wanted i wanted to add just two quick things to this in in touching back
because my internet's apparently terrible um you know i spent 20 years in web 2 and i've spent five
years in web 3 and i i think that i think the biggest i think the biggest thing that
right like i sort of struggle with and this will tie into sort of the second question
i think the biggest thing that i struggle with is in a web 2 world right your you know at at
folks that are our level you know our bosses per se or the people that we are responsible to
are the rest of the c-suite board members right like you get those folks nodding their head
and you've got the approval and you move on web 3 you add this whole other element of community
and it's really hard sometimes because you know someone mentioned and i forgot who it was right
like you launch a product and it's not fully baked and people are like you guys are idiots
this sucks i think the biggest thing to understand is that there's all sorts of other business stuff
going on in the background that's dictating lots of things that have gone into those decisions
so again sometimes i i struggle with you know i want to just like shake the shit out of them
and be like haven't you seen the whole roadmap that we haven't made you know public yet and i
can't tell you more about it but you should just trust us so i think that's like do you work for
flux because that's sometimes the sentiment i have good job man no it's hard and you want to be
transparent and you want to be like guys look we got this right like we've got a plan um and we
struggle with that sometimes right where it's like we think about things longer term you know our
tokenomics extends a hundred years so it's like we're thinking about things long term but it's
like eventually it's just like guys we got this trust us the second piece and now i completely
lost my train of thought because i got excited about community stuff but you know yes it's a
price the price conversation oh my god yeah i mean we're in the united states and like i joke with
my kids i don't want to go back to prison uh i've never been to prison not to sit around with those
that have gone to prison right they don't do that though my kids think it's hilarious exactly
prison mike exactly there might be a purple tourniquet on my head but um but yeah it's it's
interesting right and it's it's this combination of transparency and trust and i mean that's what
we've really tried to to drive and focus so if i could jump in and say that ergo actually suffers
a little bit oppositely of those of those factors so we are actually trying to do the something a
little bit different here in that it's human nature for people to come into a project and
want to be led and want to point to somebody and say why can't you make the decision and we'll
comment on comment on why it doesn't work and why it might work so we are literally just trying to
fight that and ensure the community that the community is in charge here so it boils down to
even with even with groups like the sigma knots the sigma knots is a community organization that's
coming up out of ergo it's been around for a year or so plus of like-minded people and none you know
people who have major disagreements as well but trying to to push forward the manifesto of the
the vision of ergo and even in there even in that group it tends to sometimes fall on people look to
a leader as people who are doing the most or or or pushing forward things and we still try to fight
that just you know i'll admit just the other day in the main sigma knots chat i kind of went off
on some of the on the members of a whole i was like you know okay i love your ideas but i'm going
to call bullshit that you guys are actually going to come through and do something here because
that's the way it's always been so do something don't don't ask me to do something just fucking
do it that's why i was like so we're we're we're adamantly trying to fight that that ideal of
there's a leader there's somebody we need to trust um the community needs to lead this the
community needs to push up forward and go from there yeah amen it's an interesting way to look
at it for sure yeah and i think uh with elafim or a little bit in in between because we are a
slightly earlier stage like uh we we launched it a bit later than then kevina and ergo um so we
we are like in this phase where we're we're very early because we built also new technology there
are not that many people that are able to contribute um to the same level as the core developer just
yet uh so we're slowly getting there and we're excited to get there because we also want um the
community to take a bigger voice and similarly to ergo to kind of also shape elafim into what they
they want they want it to be instead of relying on us because we're a super small team so if they
if if we have to build everything it's going to take forever forever it's going to take forever
but it's uh but at that point in time the reality is we still have a little bit the lead because of
being so early in the maturity of the project um and it's a bit it's a bit challenging but we are
taking step to try and um and reduce and reduce this dependency in the core contributor we also
have some organization within our community that are starting to take the lead for example one
thing that happened to us that was purely community driven was the listing on on mexie this is something
as core contributor we didn't really want to pursue ourselves but the community organized
themselves and made it happen um and and there this is a non-technical example here but there
are many technical examples and hopefully as we move forward we'll have also many more technical
examples of of the ecosystem driving itself and um to quickly go back on the original question
which was around how do you deal with the lack of seniority in the space i think that first of all
there's definitely potentially a lack of seniority in the space uh but it's also because the space
itself is very young and moves at a rapid space so even if you have in the space even if you build
expertise in some things you might become obsolete very quickly and as we all said we we are building
something that evolves and so what we try to do to bring seniority in the space is also to make
um to work on accessibility whether it is user accessibility or developer accessibility so that
we can bridge and bring more people into the space to bring more competency um as well to the space
that's super interesting i'd love to go back to the ergo comment um just around sort of the trust
and transparency piece because i i feel right just from having been here for a short amount of time
right the i view this in two separate buckets i view this as the crypto bucket and i view this
as the blockchain infrastructure bucket and i see both of them as different right i feel like
a lot of times the community wants us to make decisions based on short-term crypto gains
and not long-term blockchain strategy so i'd be interested i'd be interested in
to hear how you guys sort of address the two of those separately so so one of the great things
about proof of work and joe joe says this all the time is it's proof of work and what you'll find
what you'll find in here is that community members who actually step up and put in their blood sweat
and tears into something tend to kind of soften up their view on let's moon let's you know dump
tokens on the community a majority of the time so you'll notice at least that's how we manage that
if people roll up the sleeves they get in they start working they start building they start
forming a team and paying people to do it their their view on how it functions and what the
purpose of ergo and in other chains here uh actually kind of changes in the long run
i love that i would say one of the biggest things i try to push is be a network peer
not one of these crypto bros right hardware talks at the end of the day are you running a node
you know um if it's like on the development front create a github make a comment like contribute
that proof of work is valuable in my opinion versus kind of the passive cheerleading that
we see in the crypto space uh where you know i'm sure there's a ton of people that i'll pick on
salana just because it's easy but if i had to you know run a full node there i would need to move
because i don't have the bandwidth to be able to host uh what the requirements are right
at the end of the day peer-to-peer networks uh that's talking about a computational network
not people talking shit on twitter or x now i guess so i encourage people to participate
on that level it's so fun to talk shit on x so come on armanio when lambo that's really what i
want to know though god you know i've been in this space long enough to have seen everything
come full cycle multiple times and the one thing that i am noticing this cycle so through that
through the bear market we're you know we're still somewhat argue we're at the beginning
of a bull market we'll see i think the u.s economy could take a downturn and it could
affect everything but we'll see um one of the things that i'm noticing is the fact that people
are becoming more educated um now you still have the wind moon folks but they're not i don't think
they're as vocal as they have been in the past so how do you guys handle um community engagement
making sure that you're actually engaging your community and focusing on the technology
development but also logistically like regular regulatory compliance and things like that
so i know there's a fine there's a fine line between you know especially proof of work is
a little bit in a is in a little bit better shape because if any one of the projects on this call
was deemed a security then bitcoin would be as well um i don't think there's any doubt in that i
think proof of work is is by far superior but but how do you folks uh how do you handle your
regulatory compliance like you know the flux team has has a very fairly well-versed legal team but
how do you guys handle it as well to make sure you're in compliance i mean we do have i mean we
do have a great legal team behind us um that you know we've got access to so if anything makes me
uncomfortable they're usually my first call um you know asking asking the question why has been very
important to try to figure out where that line is and what the real risk is to a situation and how
to mitigate it i mean i i mean dan you know like i post what i'm working on every single day on
twitter um and the idea is you know i like to i like to give this sort of vision of movement
right and like we're working on all of this cool stuff but keep it relatively vague uh now the
flip side of that is someone could argue that keeping it relatively vague could be could be
an issue um but it's really just from our side it's just leaning on that team and making sure
that uh at least i've got some sort of cya and process to uh again jokingly keep me out of prison
president might attend the view of open source code is speech so i don't worry about it i just
try to deliver tools and hope that uh like in in my like mental framework um you know one thing
i like to imagine is okay if i have a user that's in the most censored environment right
how can i deliver a full suite of tools to that person because generally if you look at areas of
the world that uh usually have the most economic you know let's say hardships uh oftentimes the
society uh doesn't offer a lot of protection doesn't offer a lot of tooling uh to those end
users and if we can deliver a product that works for them it'll work for everybody else
and i think on our end we we focus a lot on the tech so there hasn't
when you on this then there are not that many occurrences in which you you need a legal team
obviously at the launch you want to figure out kind of the basis more recently for example we
launched a bridge and and that and as such the bridge that we have requires the role of guardian
and so we did we did spend some time with the legal team in our jurisdiction to understand
um the implication of of being a guardian of the bridge and all of these things so we do spend
some time making sure before we we launch something um to understand the regulatory
implication but being a decentralized layer one uh that level at the layer one level there's
um beyond kind of the initial launch there's not that today at that point in time there's not that
many uh regulatory concern um but we do also uh collaborate with with a with a good number
of lawyers to making sure that um whatever we build if we build something new or if we
support something we do it in a way that is uh as compliant as it can be
so one of the other and guys we're going to be running up we got about five minutes if
there's anybody that has a question and they want to get a real quick answer please fire it up now
davie alleged you want as a speaker davie we have any up here anybody up here that wants to ask
questions yet no not yet a lot of basshole people out there today i would love to see this as an
ongoing space too if you guys are willing to do this uh on a regular basis um let's say maybe
once a month or something like that just come together and do these things i have probably
another 10 questions but we're not going to get to them so i'd love to to do this again
definitely all right we got canon i think who has uh question go ahead canon
you have to unmute yourself canon there we go there you go just a quick question for all the
teams uh what's the the output or your staff that are out there products what percent of it is like
made by the core team versus you know community projects and then also i'm not i hold all four of
these coins uh follow all the projects but it's never 100 clear to me uh a couple guys
were talking about having legal opinions and things like that how many of them are
a business helping moving the chain forward versus you know more of a dal structure independent
structure thanks that's a that's a hell of a good question i can speak for flux real quick
um the nice thing about flux is it's built on bitcoin so anybody that has has done work on
bitcoin coin can obviously do work on flux and and so on and so forth and we think we're very very
supportive of open source um we took a conventional model much like the lightning network so we have
uh flux which is the open source anybody can build on and anybody can do anything they want
permissionless so on and so forth and then we have a company that we uh we we build ip on now that ip
that gets built out gets deployed on the platform and that's influx it's a it's actually uk based
company uh we we are in the process right now of forming like an actual um an actual foundation
and dal model uh but we're going to do it a little bit different than what it's been done
before in the past because essentially i still think that dals are are are historically still
centralized i mean people talk out the sides of their mouth and say well no they're not but yes
they are um we're actually looking at building a dal model that takes into account every single
person in the flux ecosystem so whether you're a node holder or whether you're just a hodler or
whether you run infrastructure or whether you're a miner you're going to have an equal voice in the
product and those technologies don't always necessarily exist today uh but we end up having
to build these things out so it takes some time but i would say the majority of the development
on the flux ecosystem is done by a um a contribution of about 70 30 70 the core team that's building on
top of that and 30 percent that comes from the community approximately yeah i'll even elaborate
on that with our flux edge solution that we just uh i think we started December 15th we had about
20 people from the community help with the testing and there still are uh like a separate group
helping out testing and and finding bugs and all that so um it's a collaboration between
a core team and community driven uh feedback
can you guys hear me or did i lose my mic again you're good okay cool uh on the left hand side
we're a bit um so all of the dapp that are built on top of Alephium are community uh community
built or third party built um but what we do so because we focus really on the chain and the layer
one but what we've done being a new chain with new technology we build some time proof of concept
everything is open source so all of our code whether it's the the actual chain um you work
on everything is open source but we do proof of concept of the most frequent dapp or features
for example we had a dex proof of concept prototype basically where the code was open
source in public so that people who come and build can look at the at an inspiration how to
build certain things on Alephium but all of the dapp that are um that are live have been made by
uh by third party but we do have um under the core team uh we do have an entity based in
Switzerland um in Switzerland the DAOs are also a recognized legal entity by the way we were not
structured as a DAO um because it was the easiest way when the project was launched to
be able to pay people and grow and have a little bit the core contributor um but the vision at
terms is to um eventually move into a foundation um yeah and but the one thing that is true i think
for all of the chain here is like we're proof of work so at the end of the day um miners control
the chain um because you because anyone can propose a new version of your chain or an
alternative to what you're building and then the miner vaults with their with their computing power
on which version of the chain
i think i lost her yeah i think a lot i think we might have lost her that was good though
what she said yeah absolutely all right any other questions i got two more people requesting uh
uh the mic but canon did we answer your your question at this point or
yeah that was good thank you all right amir you have a question for us i have a burning question
i'll try to get it off before the space rugs me um and i apologize i came in a little later uh
but i i was hoping maybe to get a quick answer on from from all the from all the great speakers
and some of you i know some of you i don't but uh i always appreciate this if you're going to
give a new team a new project coming into the crypto space right you have the elephant in the
room like everybody goes towards salinity right i mean that's where a lot of it goes so from a
from an education standpoint from a collaboration standpoint between all these these chains that i
know um the language and all of them i've dabbled a little bit um it's it's different right and it's
cool because it's different um but there's actually a purpose for some of this difference
so like from a from a high level how can community how can our communities how can
your projects you know collaborate not collaborate in a negative way but collaborate on a
communicative way to show like maybe this chain makes more sense for this product let's get this
project like to the right people and and i know we all kind of compete and we have to be careful
with those things but like from a like truly from a uh consultative and a collaborative standpoint
how can we all do better to get people to see that some of these chains have value i'm a huge proof
of work i love proof of work right i advocate um there's no time and place for everything but
like how do we really get these new projects coming in to not always just jump on well you
know everybody goes here and all the programmers are here so how do we do that and i know
it's probably not a simple answer but that's kind of like in my mind um you know how do we help you
guys help us kind of expand our own community and from a developer standpoint our user pools
i think that's that's an excellent question and i think one that needs to be very educated too
by the way that that is very astute um i think that the big thing the advice we would give is
we heard a lot today in this call when people talk about what they're doing uh with their
different platforms you know i go back to what i kind of mentioned early which is entertain
offerability the ability to use different platforms for and really kind of tap into their
strength so whether you're using you know ergo for their DeFi components or Aletheia and further
settlement mechanism or KDA for their scalability or flux for the inner back end infrastructure
we're we're winning across the board and that's the way that it should be um i would say like new
projects coming into the space we create uh opportunities for synergies because we are so
early into the blockchain development space people um they're they're a tad
tribalistic they think that their product's the best product but in reality we can't scale
effectively because we talk about uh you know what we're working on finance is almost the one
one thing that you know everybody has common ties to but we need to look beyond finance
uh we need to look at the healthcare sectors we need to look at supply chain management uh you
know we need to look at asset assets and and how to how to do assets on the blockchain in a in a
in a better more creative and well-developed way so the only way we get there really honestly is
for us to educate our communities that we are not in competition you know i always say when
people ask me well who's your competition in the blockchain space i say i don't have competition i
have opportunity because ultimately what one project is doing and doing very well we don't
replicate things i'm not going to go out and push to the community the flux needs to do um
you know a settlement mechanism uh like what you know Aletheia is doing and so on and so forth
we're going to use those guys you know we're going to use their their technology platform that they
build out i'm not going to try to reinvent scaling on 20 plus chains like Kadena's doing
they already did that i'm not going to rebuild a kick-ass DEX that you know runs on ergo these
are all things that we can tap into and create synergies with one thing about the crypto space
that i don't know i find irritating sometimes is that there is a big focus or emphasis on what
things do and not necessarily the assumptions of how they work right and long term uh that's
ultimately what creates like stability and value so like as a team um you know i would recommend
there be very clear assumptions in terms of how things work and then educate uh the user base in
terms of the value of that you know a lot of people will talk about what you can do but if
you're talking about trust assumptions you're talking about censorship resistance that's found
in the how not the what so yeah back to yeah that was great but back to amir's question there
that's an extremely difficult question to answer because it makes you have to set aside your own
ego as far as that goes to be able to answer that but what i can say at least what i feel that
we've done in ergo and i think some of the other chains are doing as well is not so much the
outreach of looking at other chains and seeing what they can do for us but also um what we can
provide to other chains so that's in the aspect of making sure your chain is robust enough for
somebody to come in and say hey i would like to utilize ergo for their DEX uh for spectrum DEX
or i want to use it for sigma phi or padilla the DAO tool or or something like that um but i i don't
know how to write in that language to do that well that's where the ergo tooling comes in i imagine
some of your tooling as well where we're attempting to build up this massive set of tooling where you
can just know python and communicate with the chain you can uh know js and just communicate
with the chain there's a whole library of flea that ck that we've made for that kind of thing
so on the opposite amir of your question yes it's it's difficult for us to say hey let's look
at everybody else while our heads are down trying to build so hard with ergo and see what we don't
have to do so that we can rely on other chains more along the lines as we're trying to build
out our chains so that people that like what they see can jump in with very little programming
knowledge and do that and i say you know uh dan i i understand your comment about not reinventing
the wheel on each chain but that's what builds healthy competition if if if um elatheum builds a
killer you know another killer dex or something like that uh competing with spectrum that's great
that's going to make spectrum better or if uh kadana has um some sort of bond program that they do
that's going to make signify better i mean we have their grocery stores and gas stations for
gosh's sake if that wasn't the case of you know convenience of being in a place at a time and
utilizing that asset or that that ability then that wouldn't exist as far as that goes you but
but doesn't doesn't that deviate kind of like from rule number one of technology development
and you're fixing your problem if you're if you're recreating the wheel on each one of these chains
like every everyone's got their own decks isn't that wasted manpower that you're replicating
these things and you're not tapping into ones that are already well developed and farther along
i get the i get the entire part about competition and i feel that that's a very germane um observation
however i think competition comes with time and we're so early on that i think we waste a lot
of times trying to replicate or almost forking of a fork of a fork to create something that's
already been done somewhere else so i think we miss like bullet point number one is what problem
do you fix and you know if we have redundant projects working on the same um the same thing
i think it's just a waste of manpower to a certain extent i get where you're coming
definitely get where you're coming from i think it does drive the industry harder when there is
competition but i also think too we need to be good judge we need to be good stewards of our
resources and our manpower is our number one resource that we are so desperately in need need
of so just a just a thought there the the thing with ergo anyway is a lot of the development teams
isn't our manpower right it's uh people that come in and want to create new ideas yeah and
and i mean also if you look a lot of us we're all l ones here we're all trying to solve
to some extent some of the problem we saw we are all trying to solve similar problem and we solve
them in different ways and so i think that a way to to allow anyone to innovate even on the same
topic but to still focus the effort is to work on interoperability in the chain between the chain
so that anyone is also can still continue to innovate and and solves the same problem in
many different ways but you can still benefit from that interoperability to focus the development
effort on certain things because you were talking about decks for example but right now
without inter interoperability a deck that runs on ergo cannot run on malefium or cannot run on
cadena all three without having some strong interoperability tool and mechanism that would
allow this to happen so one way to to address this problematic is to also focus part of our effort
into improving interoperability and i think one of the way that ergo does it is a this is one great
way to do so yeah 100 i agree with you and and and the beauty i mean that's the way science works
right that's the way that we have 50 000 flavors of linux because a project builds one up and then
there's you know consensus about another branch that somebody wants to change something or tweak
something and really that's what ergo does in in your projects as well with your open source
code where if we we just had somebody come in maybe two months ago and say oh we really love
this hodl erg app that you have i want to build it in um and in cardano and there was some back
and forth about where some of the the uh back end uh auto pavement should go for crediting the devs
but other than that you know it's open source code go ahead and do it make it better and that'll
challenge us to make it better if we don't feel ours is is quite up to that part so keeping that
code open source really facilitates what you're speaking about elifium as well as opening up our
chains to each of us awesome well these against time here guys so what i'd like to do is anybody
that has questions if you guys are willing to come back next week and do this again
or the following week let's do it um we'll come prepared with any of the questions so feel free
to shoot dm to me uh with questions for the for the next event and i really am grateful you guys
all jumped the win today so let's uh let's do it again real soon let's do it thank you dan thank
you everyone else appreciate it thank you yep have a good one thanks guys