Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
Founder Delusion and Capital Addiction
Recorded: Aug. 11, 2025 Duration: 1:06:12Space Recording
Short Summary
In a lively discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the psychological challenges of 'founder delusion,' the impact of capital addiction, and the evolving landscape of project launches and tokenomics. Key insights included the importance of community engagement, the risks of declining projects, and innovative partnerships enhancing user experiences.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. GM, GM, I hope you're all doing well.
Give us a few minutes before we kick things off.
If you can hear me, just react with an emoji, maybe a thumbs up.
And as you're here, tell our guests to join us in the next few minutes.
Would appreciate if you comment, share, like, and retweet the space.
Cheers. Thank you. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Thank you everyone for joining in.
We wait for some of our guests to join us.
And as we do, I appreciate if you can A, react
and let me know if you can hear me clearly.
B, share the space, you know, let's try to educate others.
Today's topic is about founder delusion.
I think it's a very interesting topic,
but before we get into it,
let me start by adding in our guest speakers for today.
We have Adam that just joined us.
Adam, can you hear me?
Hey, bro, how are you doing?
Yes, great, good to see you, man. Looking forward to getting
into this.
Awesome. Likewise. Yeah, I think we have two more guests, Kieran, and one other guest
that's joining us. But before they do, let's not keep the people waiting. So we have time.
Why don't you jump into it? Give us a quick TLDR about yourselves. What are you working
on currently
hi bro yes this is this is adam so my name is already done right so you guys know that
and i'm working on songjam so i'm a founder like many i'm terminally addicted to capital, man. I need that hit of, you know, it's not adrenaline,
but it's like, it's something close to it.
Running through my veins.
Like every time I get an investor on the phone,
on a call, whatever, customers, even better,
revenue, I love it.
It's amazing.
So yes, I'd love to dive into this topic and we're building out so song jam is
actually bro we should have sorted this out we've got a dj man so you want to kick off the space
in style you just bring our dj in and yeah yeah we could do it now we could do it now do you want
me to to to bring it up or should we get in we're already yeah why not it's
okay uh we don't let's drop some tunes yeah let's do that let's drop some tunes before we before we
get before we get going so but yeah so song jam and and we're actually really the big unlock is a
voice verification network right so right now i could well be an ai voice right you you presume that
the adam place that you're you're hearing from is the genuine article and this is this is a human
right but i could well be an ai voice and more and more we're finding that these deep fake voices are
popping up uh all over the place, right?
In fact, there's a deepfake attack every five minutes.
So the major unlock that we're working on is this voice verification network
that's based on some open source hardware and a proof of stake consensus mechanism.
So these are the important things that Song that song jam unlocks but in the
meantime we've actually got an info fi oracle so we're retrieving data from different platforms
and we've also got a x spaces crm that my friend mr console has actually recently been
diving deep into so yeah super excited to hear so i've actually just sent the dj we can
just play like a quick tune uh while we're waiting for some more guests to come in if you accept
the request yeah i just said awesome this is fucking cool i think we'll also get into Thank you. you
you Oh you
you Oh Yo, this was really cool.
I think we need to keep getting the DJ onto other spaces.
So this is good to know. And I'm quite excited that you introduced this today.
Fuck, I'm already hyped up.
All right, we also have Mr. Console. Do you want to go next?
Just introduce yourself, take a quick TLDR, who you are, what are you up to?
a quick TLDR who you are what are you up to yes sir happy to be here it's my first time on your
spaces mode so shout out to this new beginning my name is Mr. Console I'm the community manager over
at Bigger. Bigger is a digital arcade the world's first arcade that has made games assets that you can own.
I'll leave it at that.
Super grateful to be sharing this stage with Adam Creon.
There's some men that I consider to be friends in the space and I also highly respect.
Can't wait to jump into the founders' delusion.
That just sounds like a good, good topic.
It is founders are delusion.
So we'll get right into it after Kieran's introduction.
Kieran, thanks for being here.
Do you want to do a TLDR about yourself?
Oh, yeah, quick TLDR.
Well, thank you for inviting me, first of all.
And I mean, I book, and thanks for accepting me.
And I'm always happy to be on the same stage with Mr. Console
and meeting Adam here.
And of course, you, Mo.
Yeah, I'm Krio.
I'm doing, I'm working on a a series x space series i'm hosting spaces
mondays wednesdays and fridays um just called um spaces playbook it's uh uh pinned on my profile
this is what i do right now i'm not really fully i'm not on web3 full-time but hopefully um
eventually so yeah i'm really excited about this conversation uh this topic um kind of you
know uh it really got my interest um founder delusion in capital addiction i i'd like to hear
some spice from this conversation it is thanks for being here and it is an interesting uh topic
uh one of the reasons i chose this is because we work with founders of different stages,
primarily early stage founders.
And when they enter the space, it's just a narrative or maybe it's an influence.
And this is what we'll go down that rabbit hole today into where a lot of founders enter
the space hoping and, well, they're kind of optimistic to a point where they're like, hey, you know, all I need is a pitch deck, a nice story, a bit of mindshare, a few KOLs, and I'm going to raise capital.
Once they do, they kind of get addicted to it.
It is an addiction.
It's a dopamine hit.
It's kind of like being in the trenches.
You just want more, more of it and more of it.
And over time, they really get quite comfortable.
A nice, well-stacked, healthy and fat runway,
but no liftoffs.
So as we get into this,
just kind of like giving a bit of context,
I know Adam was one of the first ones here
that started talking about his addiction
to capital so maybe let's hear from adam itself like how's your journey been have you
a raised capital b how has that experience been for yourself
yeah so yeah i i'd say yeah you know guilty as charged welcome to founders anonymous um i'm addicted to
capital like like many of us and uh yeah i've been trying to wean myself off so i've been trying to
i guess like the so so i still i guess every kind of capital i'm addicted to right there are
definitely several times types of capital so there's actually venture capital which is a uh you know it has got a certain buzz there is there is debt capital right which has
a completely different kind of high right it's it's really very it's really very different from
venture capital and then there is revenue right? And revenue is probably the most organic kind of capital
and probably the healthiest kind of capital.
So I would class all of these as capital,
literally capital in,
because that's what it is on the balance sheet, right?
And yeah, they all have,
so they're all different flavors, different highs, right?
You know, and, but in the end,
like i think
what what my my goal really is to wean myself off the the venture and debt capital towards the the
revenue right and i think revenue is is sustainable it should be sustainable and we should be setting
up sustainable revenue streams that can give us a a kind of uh yeah like a holistic
future for a startup business right i think it was eric schmidt so eric schmidt the former ceo
of google i think it was he that said revenue solves right? And it is definitely that.
And I think that as a founder,
certainly I've found that focusing on revenue and closing deals and making revenue
is just like that.
It is true.
Eric Schmidt was right.
And it's the best kind of capital in
and it's probably the best kind of capital
to be addicted to, right?
100%. I think that's something that most founders kind of also almost overlook,
especially when you have a nice venture capital checks coming in.
I don't think many founders have experienced venture debt.
We have, it is definitely a different type of high,
but it is in the end still a liability and not really,
I wouldn't even call it capital, even though we really do.
That's a whole different question and topic to discuss on.
Mr. Consul, we'd love to take your POV on.
I know you're not really a founder, founder per se, but also like how do you see it? Because it's really good to have these conversations, not just with founders and builders, but also the users, the contributors, the creators to get to hear their point of views.
Yeah, for sure. I'm not a founder in the space, but I have a business outside of Web3.
So I can somewhat speak to this topic from being part of a team which has a relatively flat organizational structure,
where and which enables you to really speak and see the decision making of the founder up front,
as well as just running my own little side business, little experiment that hopefully
can be the diversification of income that I desire. It's interesting that my friend speaks
about different capitals. I know of a different list of different capitals, the financial, the human, the social, the
emotional.
I know those capitals.
So your take, Adam, was really interesting because it spoke of different capitals.
In my space and from my experience, speaking on the founder delusion, I've come across relatively young entrepreneurs, fast timers in creating a business, individuals that were able to just capitalize on the moment and the opportunity and raise money with relatively shallow business
experience or just not being able to transition their mindset to the digital space and unique
challenge that having a blockchain game essentially entails and that has just led them to absolutely burn. And by burn, I mean,
they pour petrol and light up the biggest matchbox and throw it to that, you know, that fire.
They've been able to burn their runways just because of not understanding what it entails to build a project in Web3
and also not being able to foresee that, hey, further down the line, the environment to raise
money might not be as conducive as it currently is for us. So they raised with the expectation that,
yeah, we're just going to
bug through this. We're going to be able to raise the same once we have a product that actually
makes that more likely, at least in their thinking. But this space is cyclical. And when you go in a
bear market, nobody's looking to deploy capital. So that's my little experience with the founder delusion i've seen it fast hand i've
worked for a studio where it had to shut down such a heartbreaking moment the delusion i would say
is real because i believe and creon will speak on this i'm sure we are seeing and hearing of
studios shutting down every two minutes. It is.
I think those founders maybe didn't read the fine print, right?
It's usually they say, let the fire burn inside of you. They just took the runway and put the fire externally
and forgot to light their hunger and their fire to be resourceful.
Kiran, we'd love to get your get your uh input next oh my uh well most people i've worked with um they
have their own capital um and um i don't know for some reason they're trying to avoid vcs probably
because they have business outside that can support their uh whatever they're doing whatever
they're building and also uh when they understood how these especially venture capitals in web 3 they're trying to
avoid that for some reason you probably know this about it because it's kind of
different right in web 3 and I'm not sure if I have a lot to say about this,
but I want to bring up another perspective, actually.
I wanted to just throw it there.
Whether, who's really addicted to capital?
Is it the builders who are trying to raise money or capital?
Or is it the DGN investors who are speculating heavily on web-free projects,
hoping to get, I don't know, maybe 100X or 1,000X? Because web-free is like an easy gain,
easy burn machine of money, right? But based on my experience um i've seen a lot of um people
trying to raise capital through business because or at least trying to get involved with or get
connected or affiliated with a visa because it kind of like helps their marketing um but also
it has a drawback um and that's another thing why um some founders were building from scratch are actually
trying to avoid pieces because you know um lots of liabilities and also lots of um um like they
require i i don't know because um they they ask i don't know how much is the personage uh personage
on that but um they require lots of like you know the what do you call
that again I keep miss I keep forgetting the word like the allocation that you
have to give them oh yeah the token allocation yeah yeah yeah that's just my
point I'm kind of like rambling right yeah yeah it is interesting right and
you make some good points there it's We're seeing a shift both in how AVCs are deploying capital,
but also more around founders self-educating themselves right now,
better understanding how finances work,
how allocations and capital actually works,
how to read the fine print,
and what's the hidden terms and conditions that come with it.
And the more ethical ones are choosing not to raise from VCs,
but rather to it on their own capabilities
and be able to ship as fast as possible, even if that means that
they might not be spending, you know, the same amount of $150,000 on Kaito, but at least they're
able to sustain and retain their users for much longer and a much healthier community. And I want to kind of, from there, shift onto the next topic to follow up with this, right?
Like, I know Adam mentioned about how
VCs and capital allocation works.
So I kind of want to get a bit more into it to hear,
like, what's your take?
How do you see or what do you hear right now
as to how VCs are deploying
capital has that changed or do you think it's it's relatively remained the same in the last few years
so yeah I think that the way that VCs are deploying capital has definitely changed a lot and yeah I mean I think a lot of
VCs have also run out of capital right I mean I think certainly a lot of the VCs in crypto
got a bit a little bit excited they got a little bit of FOMO not unlike not unlike uh the way that retail might be expected to behave especially in the 21
the 21 22 that kind of time so and and i think that there are there are some vcs that are the
walking wounded now and they are actually looking for for any kind of return so i think that
somewhat you know there are plenty of
vcs that have like deployed all their capital and therefore the way that they deploy capital has
absolutely changed because they don't have any to deploy right now and are looking for any kind
of return they can get but they still need to keep it up uh the game right and and appearing
appearances and all of that so there's that there's that but
i i think generally like yeah you know i mean we we had a we were in a very crazy time it was a very
crazy moment 21 22 for vc capital and i think that's partly because we didn't have, you know, the ICO mania had been kind of put to bed for that period.
And the launch pad phenomena, which I think is where we're really going with this cycle,
these launch pads seem to be the kind of really just the this is what is exploding at the moment.
the this is what is exploding at the moment right as far as i can see um but vcs were almost the
Right. As far as I can see.
only way to get exposure during 21 22 so and and i think that perhaps with launch pads we're going
to see much more capital kind of just coming through this kind of this kind of vehicle right
rather than vcs and and it may be
i'm not i don't think vcs are done but i just think there's going to be less of them and there's
going to be more yeah more launch pads more opportunities to do icos or ico like events
um yeah so i i definitely think that yeah like too many folks got burnt in the last cycle and
so there's much more conservatism within the vc ranks and uh yeah and i don't i don't i don't
actually expect to summarize i don't actually expect it to come back with vcs i think there'll
be much more going on and launch pads and it's going to be a public it's going to be retail investors that are going to determine the winners and losers in this cycle and not just
retail investors as in speculators but also you know those that are getting exposure to the
project as community members right and community members and users of the protocols so i think in total i
think it's a good correction i think it's good i think vcs are they did serve their function and
their purpose but frankly like you know we really don't need another layer one blockchain and uh i
think it just went a bit overboard in 21 22 like we've still got so many so many blockchains and uh just not
enough people to to to do stuff on them right 100 i think you made some really good points there
matthew welcome to the stage i know you've had your hands up so sir the floor is all yours
um it's awesome i saw some legends in space mr console creon only found this team you guys um
it's nice like i just think this is really worthwhile conversation like we have seen
found the delusion everywhere um and you know we've also seen capital addiction we've seen
founders taking a hell of a lot of stick on the timeline and i think that is actually because
founders took the risks
and many people who shouldn't have got lucky in 21 got lucky in 21.
And many of those VCs, as Adam was mentioning,
they shouldn't have given those people money.
I mean, I'm from the gaming space.
I've been 20 years in games.
For those that don't know me, I've been 20 years in,
I guess it's more like 17, 18 in Web 2
and the last three, at least, in Web 3.
So what I've seen is a lot of things that got funded because people kind of thought that doing things in Web 3 meant that you didn't have to have any of the knowledge or any experience in the previous sort of way of doing things so it was like young vcs flush with money putting in
lots of lots of speculative no sort of strings attached incredibly high valuations into young
founders not a lot of experience in space and it's it's the ones the problem we've had i think is
the projects that persisted i can't talk about like the whole of DeFi or anything, but in our space and gaming particularly,
the projects that persisted from 21 to now,
many of them shouldn't have even been funded.
And projects that should have been funded,
they were too late.
So as everyone knows, like the market crashed.
We raised in 22,
we raised at the very, very start of the of the bear market right so what happened to
us was our initial raise when we were talking to bc such a bit graph was going to be like valuation
um we were going to raise 10 at 100 and then we ended up raising one at 10 so valuation got cut
like you know that much it was like catching a falling knife um and all i had was
a bag of fingers the end was crazy so we've seen that vcs got absolutely rinsed i mean i remember
being on calls with them having them shouting across the room at each other we have to move
the goddamn money now and that's when ftx was exploding so they got rinsed we got rinsed and
we got a lot of brave but speculative people who thought that Web3 is basically going to be the panacea to everything.
And now VCs are broke and retailers broke because they lost all their money gambling on meme coins in Solana Summer.
And now when you look at what's actually happening now, I think we've got a bit of breathing room, right?
I think we've now got the wave has been cleared from a lot of shitty projects
a lot of scammy projects it's actually purged it's like having a massive enema just before we've seen
f and um bitcoin dominance falling and we've actually seen the possibility that we will go on
a real altcon oh corn one oh yeah i have no idea what that song damn thing was. Oh, sorry.
Congratulations.
It's the DJ from Adam.
Sorry, bro.
I was talking too much anyway.
No, feel free.
No, that's such a really good point.
So we hear one of them that stands out is also somewhat around one or almost it sounded like ownership, right?
We kind of encourage a space where ownership and accountability doesn't really exist.
It's quite easy to call the devs a scam because they did not make a simple announcement on a Monday at 4 p.m. when they said they would.
But a lot of the traders are not as empathetic
when it comes to looking at what actual struggles
a lot of teams and more, let's call them ethical teams,
go through on the background or the back of house as compared to the other
side that we see publicly, right? Because there's, there's, Web3 is almost kind of like this
America's Got Talent format where a founder is not expected to build as much as he or she is expected to entertain.
And based on that mindshare relevance and adoption is what
capital is allocated to them.
Yes, there's something interesting. But that's the clearest way I've heard it.
Look, like that's just such a succinct way of putting it.
Like it is like America's Got Talent.
You do have to have a good backstory.
And it's really about, I think, the founders that survive.
I mean, look at Frank D. Godz, right?
This seller bounced around for years after ostensibly he basically said
he'd given up on the project and crashed out because he made people money
at one time.
Like, seriously, if you're a founder who made people money at one point in 21 you have a quote and it's up to you to kind of live up to it
yeah it's a very valid point there um and this is where i kind of like i guess we get to the
next one right like i asked adam this so i would like to also get your two cents on this.
I hear different versions. So it's always due to like hack these conversations
to kind of like hear different points of view
from the WCs that I'm talking to,
also founders that we talked to.
We hear a lot about how investment hypothesis
and pieces has been shifting,
where VCs are not as interested in deploying capital into early stage founders as they were in the last cycle,
but rather they prefer now looking at options of OTCs once the token goes live as to have better returns in a shorter time frame.
as to how better returns in a shorter time frame um how are you hearing or how do you see
um how we sees our managing and deploying capital right now i mean if you're talking to me um i've
i've we've had for example multiple eight figure offers for otc deals but that's more from
specialists in the space for what we're doing with warp, right? We haven't actually raised any DC this time. So we're fully bootstrapped.
And I mean, it's great because I don't have to stare at a tokenomics table until I can
literally see the fucking figures when I go to sleep. It's amazing. We don't have all
of this speculation on who's going to dump and what's going to happen.
You've got to sell all of the token or you've got to sell none of the token.
None of the tokenomics series that VCs espoused worked.
I think the thing is, it left them feeling lost because they had tokenomics experts.
They hired in their buddies from really, really smart kids.
Most of the VCs that I talk to, even the ones that people
don't rate in smaller, most of them are run by like 30 under 30, bit of a red flag, but like MIT
grads. These are like serious brain box people. These are not stupid people who are just kids
and looking for money. These people have genuine intellect that they could bring to bear.
And the problem is that the tokenomics, none of them worked.
Like in my sector, I can't talk for like DeFi and that,
but none of them worked because no one progressed further
than actually the thesis of releasing the token
and said token going up
because no one was releasing a token into a bull market.
Basically, the idea being that these tokenomics only work
if you actually have insane demand
where you could literally mint any NFT for free and get like six, seven figures overnight
by flipping it within 24 hours.
That doesn't exist.
Spana and its meme coins killed the shit out of that.
Blur.
Frankly, God's the rest killed the shit out of NFfts by taking away the royalties um and that
royalties came back too late twitter killed nfts by taking away the hexagon bfe believe it or not
that was actually people joke about it but that was one of the huge groundswell moments of public
adoption that people were thinking do i need one of these things to be taken seriously on this app
do i actually need one of those and of course. I mean, Elon would prefer for your premium bucks as opposed
for that. So I think, you know, VCs are broke. They can't rely on their tokenomics, so they
can't trust thesis. What they can do is they can do a bit of TA. And they learned TA because they
were all in meme coins because they were so fucking broke. So all of the VCs I know went
from bets on hyped founders
that had made people money on some sort of random collections
or came from some sort of DeFi background.
Those bets all failed.
They then piled into quicker money,
which was like in MySpace,
more like Tom games or Telegram stuff.
Some of them made banks, some of them didn't.
They then piled into after that ai stuff but then
they didn't have enough money for that most of them in games went into infrastructure plays
but the whole point of like picks and shovels in a gold rush is gold should have been discovered
first like gold being discovered is the precursor to picks and shovels oh you know crazy right i think that's such a great analogy over here um i feel the same in many ways
but all right i'm gonna pass this to adam adam um i know we've touched on so many topics over here
from the actual silent delusion to tokenomics that only perform on bill markets to airdrop strategies that potentially don't really work.
One of the things that I've been quietly part of
because I still am part of just multiple smaller circles
is something interesting that stood out quite recently.
One of them was there was a survey that was ran around what is considered a long-term holder for a project as of July.
And this is something I want to ask everyone here on stage for answering, what do you think when you say that you're a long term holder for a project, what does long term look to you or what's long term to you?
Is that in months? Is that weeks? Is that years?
So was this, did you say starting with me we are we cool with that right so
yeah yeah so yeah and matt matt had some fire points by the way i loved i loved that i absolutely
loved that um so yeah and and and i i i kind of agree with a lot of of what was said there and
and it was uh yeah it's interesting i i love
the the mention of the the hexagon the hexagon uh pfp because it's right we don't know what the
hell is going on in reality with the the on-chain uh the on-chain reality and i think actually
i i don't have so much uh experience in the gaming side of things i've kind of witnessed a lot of it but uh but definitely
what's very interesting and i think what's actually happening now with the on the info
fi side is is that much more of the the on-chain proofs are going to start to get lined up
and that's going to be very interesting to see. This is like your classic kind of Warren Buffett moment, as in, you know, we'll see who was swimming without any underwear.
Because as soon as we line up the on-chain proofs with what people are yapping about on the timeline, then we'll start to see who is really a believer.
Right. So I think, you know, from my perspective, like long term conviction is something that lasts years. And frankly,
that's the kind of holder that I would be looking for for our project. However, the reality is that
I think for a lot of people, long-term conviction could mean an afternoon right so uh you know i i think that the uh the
the average like attention span of retail in this market right now is tiny and we just have to kind
of live with that right and the way to the way to deal with it as a founder is to just be on line
all the time and uh and and that's like i think the only way to be able to possibly stifle
the uh the criticisms that will inevitably come in within within moments of uh something that is
remotely not completely bullish happening right so that's that's just the reality that we're that
we're dealing with right now and but the but i do still believe that
there is enough and there will continue to be enough capital for everyone even though it is it
is it has been looking a bit constrained i i i do think that yeah there is there is liquidity
uh circulating and i i do think there will be more liquidity coming in so i am i i yeah as i say i
think we just have to deal with this reality
of like, yeah, you know, investor,
I mean, they're not really investors,
but like the speculative nature of this space
just means that people are gonna be flipping super fast.
And I don't think there's anything,
I think we're living with this now, right?
I mean, you could, maybe that's not,
maybe others have got other
takes on that and i'd love to hear them yeah on this current nice move i was just gonna mention
i was like guys don't wait for your term like put your hands up join the conversation current go for
it oh yeah all right so back in 2018 i learned that being a holder is defined as uh if if you have uh if you have an asset and you're not touching it for like half a year, you're already considered as a holder or a long-term holder.
But you know how time flies in Web3, especially for DJs, for NFT holders and meme coin holders.
I don't think there's a lot of people holding that for that long.
If somebody's holding for like three months,
I think that can be considered as a long-term holder these days
if they're not touching it.
Because majority of the, based on my observation,
based on the observation I got from the meme coins
how they move in the market um they kind of like last um so like like for example the weave token
or or uh dog we've had um when it got in in december and then i thought it's it's it's just
you know maybe it's not time it's the time yet but in a matter of like three uh before three months happened something's going on so if you are
holding something you should hold for at least like two to three months and then maybe you can
see more action you can start flipping um that's what's common right now but six months you may actually burn yourself later on because
everybody's gonna fall gonna gonna go down eventually and i don't know that's just like
the cycle that's been happening in the past um two years since 20 you know since 2023
yeah interesting um before i go to matthew uh mr console how long do you think is a long-term
hold right that's a good question because it's a question like adam pointed out to be
very subjective each investor has their own time horizon time liking I know some traders who consider 15 minutes to be too long because they
just want to be in and out binary trading. I believe, however, when we look at finance,
TradFi, as we love to call it in this space, it's defined as a period beyond a year.
It's defined as a period beyond a year.
Over 365 days is what turns an asset into a long-term hold asset, at least in the balance sheet.
This is coming off memory from school, if I remember correctly.
remember correctly. Just to add on the previous discussion, I think we also just have to zoom out
and look at the macroeconomic environment that changed. Higher interest rates, the S&P essentially
performing pretty well, and investors being able to make a good return just by investing in NVIDIA. We also have to look at
the risk of tariffs and how that made investors just want to be on the sideline on things,
right? Not everything has been easy under this Trump administration, and that's also affecting
capital deployment beyond the projects in the space.
Because as far as I understand the venture capital business, they raise money to spend money.
If they don't spend that money, that's actually trouble for them, right?
And during this whole feat, a lot of new segments have been emerging.
There's DeFi, there's dpi there's d5 ai
there's all this new hot things to chase for vcs they've been throwing their money on that front
trying to get in on cutting edge technology i'm not really sure how that's working out for them
but having a good understanding of the macroeconomic environment helps us also understand why we're
being affected in this climate and ecosystem that we currently are.
Time to your question, one year.
If you're not holding for more than one year, yeah, that's not long term.
Good point, sir.
I really like your way of elaborating and explaining it. Matt, go for
it sir.
I think one of the things is, first of all, I agree with Mr. Console, long term holds
are definitely a year. For anything that I'd class as an NFT or an asset or whatever,
I mean you can't really hold it for less than a year and have
actually made anything unless you bought it like very recently. Because NFTs have been down,
tokens have largely been down, mean coins are up and down. I think for me, what defines whether I
consider an asset long-term play is whether it has utility that I enjoy enough to keep it and whether that utility is valuable
enough to me for me to keep it. Like I think apart from say I got a sappy seal, majority of the NFTs
I've got now have been given to me and I would never sell them even if they have a value to flip
them. It's like yeah you apply, you get free stuff sometimes from apple bot or you get free stuff from being part of the community just by being part of communities and accruing free things
and accruing new communities and being part of those communities too and for me a long-term hold
i define as anything where the holding on to it is more valuable than selling it regardless of
the price like if you were one of the first people to mint an ape and you only minted one,
would you have sold that at the absolute peak and then lost access to all of that community?
Lost access to all of the potential freebies and the mutants and the dogs and all the other shit that they did?
I don't know that you would, even if you had just one punk.
Like if you have the money to buy several or if you minted multiple, you'd want
that. But a long-term hold is that it's actually so painful that you're going to leave that community
and all the benefits that come with it. I think that's what happens in gaming. A lot of people
get stuck in the gaming tokens because if you look at all these tokens, they're not all zero.
So there are people who are holding them and there is liquidity around. Just obviously they're all depressed, but there are huge bag holders.
There are so many people with massive bags who want to start cycling into safer stuff
when things go up.
At least that's what they should be doing.
If the market takes everything up, if we do have another sort of 2021,
everything peaks towards December kind of crazy euphoria
time. There are so many people who have masses of unknown bags that could suddenly become
wealthy as long as they do something with it. But I do think that for me, the definition
of a long-term hold is, is the value of this better than the community? For example, if
you have a certain token, it might give you access to certain gated discords or things like that um that could be more valuable for you
so that's kind of my very floppy non-financial definitions yeah i think that they're all great
takes um as to how we define it our relevance to it and association of what we think is long term like in my case I've held
certain tokens from different communities even though I haven't really ever been active on their
discards token gated communities are tapped into their network just held it because you're not
selling it are you you're not flipping it because no i'm not
like 20 bucks for something when you have access right right and neither am i um extracting value
right but when i i when i do engage i try to add value there um so that for me is long term and
i'm talking three years two years right uh one of the earliest holders of Bonk still hold it. So it's a crazy thing,
right? But then there are also communities where, and the reason for asking this was the survey
done between 300 individuals, their long term hold was a week and a half. Right. That's what they consider long term right now,
which was quite.
Was that token people?
Was that for token people?
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, I think that's Solana summer for you, right?
I think what was it like?
God knows, like 2.3 million billion tokens got released.
Yeah.
I mean, Pumfang has done about 11 million so far right 11.5 million tokens so um not too far off on how short the attention is and how
expensive it's getting right and that's where kind of it i wanted to take this conversation as we still have about 20 minutes into our spaces.
It is about looking at mindshare because that's kind of the space that we are in or the time that we are in where you are now financed or backed based on how much mindshare do you have or are able to command,
which really what this translates to is much more higher raises
not to build better products per se,
but higher raises so that you can dominate mindshare,
which is higher spent on marketing, more airdrops,
more free money, more liquidation of assets,
which are actually a liability,
both the founder of the team and their entire community,
into not really building the tech or the innovation,
but rather just running these consistent activations.
How do you, you know,
I kind of want to get everyone's opinion on this.
Like there isn't anything that's right or wrong.
So if you disagree with what I'm saying,
please do share that as well.
That's the kind of the goal of the spaces,
not just to be agreeable.
So who wants to go first
i mean i stuck my hand up because i'm such a teacher's pet
it's really good no i mean you make a really good point i do think in in the fullness of time with
ai and hear me out i might be batshit crazy but in the fullness of time AI is gonna play such an important role in everyone's lives we're gonna have AI
agents to be able to have completely on-chain verifiable money that's worth
something and they'll be able to do stuff with that whether it's playing
games I see LFG in the audience there they're making agents allow you to
actually play games we're working with them for what we do at Warpchain you're
gonna have agents that are there to give you data. You'll probably have security agents that
are there to protect you. You're going to basically be surrounded by fake people that you've kind of
conjured out of existence that will have their own money and ability to spend. We're actually going
to be creating and spawning consumers. And therefore, because we're doing this, and at the
same time, the cost of producing a SaaS,
cost of producing content, cost of producing entertainment, cost of producing games is
falling massively.
We've seen that with Spotify, how little people get from Web2 side.
Seen that with YouTube absolutely crushing the hell out of video production and all of
those kinds of things.
I remember when I was a kid, you could have shows
giving out five grand for a funny picture of a kitten filmed on a VCR, like video that you would
send in. It's crazy, right? Nowadays, that is like, that kitten could be the most famous kitten in the
world or he gets zero views. I think we are heading into a sort of abundance of human skill, meaning
the only thing that really actually matters in a way is influence
and your ability to influence other people. I think sometimes people forget what key opinion
leader actually meant. It's not that you are the influencer. It's that people who move the markets
listen to you. And that's really, it came from Asia, I believe. I first started talking about it
in Token 2049 Singapore. It's really about like those people who if they say something,
they don't even have to have the biggest accounts, but they're listened to. And they can actually
change and move markets, right? And those key opinion leaders could be someone from A16Z
followed a particular coin.
I think it was Ribbit or something.
And it went up like 300%.
Or it is a market cap went up to tens of millions just off the back of that one follow.
So there are people who are, you know, key opinion leaders.
And I think over time with micro influencers, with everyone creating content, with niches
like this, human subcultures are fractal. Someone always follows someone. So I think this is where we're
heading. And I think the entirety of crypto itself has become SocialFi. Like X now is a
SocialFi metagame. And there are products in it like InfoFi and all of those. They don't do
particularly well because none of this translates to something. But i think we're early on this influence is going to
be gold in the future definitely i think this will eventually as i think what you touched on
from abundance is we have so much of everything and it is easy to access, easy to produce, easy to distribute, as opposed to what it
meant even less than a decade ago in terms of creating quality content, distributing
it, finding the audience.
It just becomes so oversaturated that I think we might eventually get into a state of being semi-autonomous,
but with that it will give a rise of having much more value for time. So even spaces like this,
I imagine in a few years to get a real human to turn up on a spaces for a conversation
would be the highest revenue generating activity that can be executed.
Because eventually we'll have agents that will be talking to each other,
creating video content, which is text to voice and their own personalities and rags.
But before I go down that rabbit hole adam
i know you have your hands up please go for it yes so as somebody as somebody building an info
fi oracle i think that the name info fi is about as retarded as any name that we've given any meta in this space right and that that includes
game fi that includes i saw someone the other day trying to show me on money fi can you imagine
the financialization of money who'd have thought it who'd have thought it unprecedented
fi fi right fifi fifi it's a dog right that's a good that's the next that's the
next doggy coin but um but i actually think that the underlying principles of mindshare are i mean
i think we're actually we are getting to the nub of things with this and it is actually very
yeah i mean it's it's so it is true it's it's so incredibly powerful
uh what's what's been happening here and and i think what started out as a as a as an interesting
experiment in kaito and has kind of of course it's become farmed and it's become industrialized
and it's become problematic right and it's actually it's
obviously broken right um and and those bots were already they were already farming engagement on
twitter so to to reappropriate that to target info fi you know to target these mindshare campaigns
is is not at all surprising um but but it's definitely i i i think that like
yeah the opportunity that we've got to um to capture the momentum and and i guess like it
is you know an attention fight that's another one right i mean at the end of the day like
nobody's got time to read your white paper nobody's got time nobody does dig in to anything
it's all surface value right like the only the the most due diligence people do is look at the
headlines from a tweet that was published today right generally speaking right so you don't you
don't have the information nobody's really got the information and i think info fi is actually quite a good name
in a way because and i'm actually you know i i don't like roll with many of these matters
because i i think that they as i say the names are so stupid but actually info fi i think it's
quite a good name because what i think it's it i think what its intent is is to find verifiable data right verifiable information and that is
what is going to have value right we need the information that can be disseminated into the ai
that is verifiable and and that's i think that the kind of industrial scale farming
in info fi right now and all of that like that's kind of
required stress testing to get to a point where we can actually have a really a really good
ecosystem for info and clean data right so yeah i mean this is this is uh yeah that's just some
some of my perspectives on that but uh yeah it's it's a cool conversation
and thanks for bringing up the mindshare thing because i'm i'm definitely i'm definitely big on
this at the moment i think this gives us an opportunity to definitely uh maybe host a
follow-up space i think this one hour was an injustice um this topic. So I'm definitely going to try.
Well, not try.
I'm just going to arrange one either for Wednesday or Thursday.
If it's okay with all of you, then, you know, we can do it on the same time and continue this topic because we're just up towards the end of it.
And usually I won't rush wrapping up my spaces.
But I do have an internal team call today
in about five minutes.
So before I wrap things off,
I do want to go around the room
and thank everyone for showing up.
Kieran, Adam, Mathieu, Mr. Console.
I know you didn't get really too much time to speak.
So I'm gonna also be aiming to make it a bit more fair.
But again, I think we're adults.
So raise your hand, jump in, share your thoughts.
Before we wrap things up, I just kind of want to go around the room and ask each one of
you to kind of share a bit about how can we help you where you are, you know, just share
a short kind of whatever update you have from your team or yourself,
something that you're looking for or anything that you're capable of helping someone else over here.
One of the aims with the spaces is to be able to create an environment where the speakers don't just come and show up,
but they're also potentially start connecting with each other offline or in any other form and
be able to support each other to stay in this wishous place a bit longer and with
potentially their sanity intact.
Yeah, so guys, do you remember remember do you remember that
whoa whoa what was that do you remember that the song jam dj is hey hey that wasn't a joke
what's going on do you remember that the song jam dj is available to use in spaces so if you do want
to liven up the beginning of the space just head over to songjam.space forward
slash dj and drop some tunes man like let's bring it bring the party to the spaces that's what i'm
here for so and great discussion guys great to see you all today and uh catch you next time
yeah that was really funny, man.
I also have the doodestoo meeting.
Thank you so much for letting me come up here
and steal all your oxygen.
I always do that to Mr. Gonso.
I always want to get in a joke about him being the bigger man
with bigger arcade.
It's always good.
I'm Matt from Warp Chain.
If you have a game, a game five project, come to us.
We're a publisher.
We essentially give you all the tech you need for free.
Don't care what chain you're on.
You don't have to be on our chain.
In fact, we encourage you not to be.
It's difficult and I don't want to do that.
We essentially help games to make it.
And if you need your favorite project to make it, come to us.
And if you want to invest in us, we have a node sale coming soon.
They're going to be the most valuable nodes ever produced if we hit our targets.
300 years of gaming experience backed by founders of King,
the former COO to Centraland, and many other luminaries of the gaming space.
So check us out, join us.
And thank you again for the space.
I'm sorry to have to love you and leave you awesome perfect mr console um i'll pass the mic to you we still have
a minute and then cure right on my side appreciate you hosting a lively discussion just to touch on
the mindshare thing as a little closing word and also advice,
I don't think we should be chasing trends. Those who are actually capable of capitalizing
the trends are those who have been building prior to the trend going mainstream. so stay focused on your project stay focused on your value listen
always to your consumer and improve from that point of view rather than what's the hottest
mindshare that we have to capitalize on that's what i would say all in all thank you
shout out to adam matthew creon it's been a pleasure sharing this stage with you all
out to Adam, Matthew, Creon. It's been a pleasure sharing this stage with you all.
Legend. Creon, are you able to connect or I think are you still ragging? Well, if you are,
yo, I think I can hear you. Check. One, two, three. There you go. Can you guys hear me?
Yes. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you. This is a great space and kind of like I've got another perspective from my brothers here.
So this is a lovely one.
I'm not, I mean, I'm not working for anyone right now, but I'm hoping to work.
But no, I'm just going to show XCoHOST to everyone.
It's free to use if you are a speaker who wants to speak on Spaces.
You might want to check it out so that you can book in advance on the platform.
And you can also list your Spaces there if you're a host.
You might want to check it out as well.
And Adam, I'm going to check out Songjam DJ.
Maybe that is something that I can use on Spaces,
especially if it has something like a music
board or soundboard. I want to check that out later. So thank you for sharing about that.
Thank you, Mo. This is a great one.
Legend. Thank you all very much. For those of you that tuned in, thank you very much.
If you enjoyed the space, I'll keep the space and keep track of our calendar. We do have many other spaces coming up this week.
Thank you all for joining me.
Have a great day, and see you all soon. Thank you.
