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(fren,fren) FT Weekly Meta Discussion 🔥
Recorded: Oct. 17, 2023 Duration: 2:08:34Space Recording
Full Transcription
Just simple attacking?
Yeah, basically, there's one farm that made like, I don't know, like 200,000, 300,000 points like that or something like that.
Wow.
I mean, it should probably be nerfed, but it will probably be nerfed, but it will probably be, I don't know.
How do you know, like, how do you even do that, right?
Oh, I think they're all funded by the same address or something.
And also, like, it's very easy to find them.
I can't open my room, and I can open my room, and I could probably tell you, but it's not working.
I don't know, he was estimating that out of like 600,000 users on Frentech, there's probably like only 90,000 that are legit, something like that.
Yeah, sorry, I had a phone call.
Yeah, I should probably put the Do Not Disturb on as well.
So for you guys joining right now, we're still waiting for people to tune in, so we're not going to start, like, the main discussion.
Oh, Orly's here.
We haven't had him on in a while.
Let's see what's up.
What's up, man?
You've been grinding other stuff, huh?
Yeah.
I've still been updating my Frentech, but, yeah, a lot of other projects came in as well.
So I'm happy to be here again.
Dragos, how have you been?
It's a little bit, gotten a little bit quieter around Frentech.
It's kind of separating the, well, the short-term, like, grifters from the long-term believers, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, you don't really see it in the TVL, though.
Like, the TVL is quite constant, I think.
Yeah.
I mean, my portfolio is down a bit from the peak, but not that much.
I'm down, like, 20.
I'm down, like, 40.
I was at 190, and I'm down at, like, 147.
Holy shit.
Did you get rugged a lot?
I think it was just the bigger accounts, like Pokey.
I was, like, very concentrated in Pokey, and I round-tripped him.
I had, like, six keys of Pokey.
So that's, like, 10 ETH right there.
That's round-tripped.
And then a couple others that just people that I had to hold for 3-3s and stuff.
But it is, but I made a lot of money on a new Bitcoin city in Starz Arena, so it makes up for that.
Nice.
Yeah, my portfolio went from, I think, from 70 to 58 or so.
So it's all right, I guess.
It's, like, 20%.
Yeah, mine went from, like, 130 to...
It's still 130, but I added, like, 13 ETH more.
Nice.
You're buying the dip.
Like, any guys you would recommend?
Like, I've been looking at stuff, but...
I don't really want to, like, shout out specific accounts on the spaces, but...
I don't know.
It feels like, I don't know.
It feels like the pool of people that you can park a lot of capital in is kind of mostly there.
Like, there's not many new accounts and stuff that you could look at.
Yeah.
I mean, everything is kind of there.
It's, like, everyone kind of has a track record.
They've been here for a while.
I haven't really seen, like, crazy opportunities to make, like...
I mean, you wouldn't really make excess trading, but you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So, what is the meta right now?
Is it, like...
Like, I've been...
It's really, really interesting to me.
So, is 3-3 still a thing?
I don't...
I feel like a lot of people got wrecked on 3-3, right?
I do...
I also saw a lot of people still doing it, right?
I think...
Dragos, are you still doing it?
Is Bugfather still doing it?
I'm doing it just to farm.
But to be honest, like, I don't even see how I make money on Freentech anymore.
Like, I hate to say...
Like, I can't buy multiple keys of, like, smaller accounts.
And I'm literally just there to farm, if I'm being honest.
I don't...
And I'm fine with that.
I'm not going anywhere, but I just don't...
Like, unless they, like, re-incentivize, like, buying...
Like, they need to somehow make the formula incentivize keep buying smaller keys.
Otherwise, it's...
Like, right now, they've, like, incentivized it to be a big farm, which is kind of funny.
But, yeah, that's why I'm on Starz Arena and Ubiquit.
Because, like, if it's a farm and I don't, like...
You know, like, what...
There's really not a lot of alpha.
I've shared, like, coins that I've been buying and, you know...
But it's been...
That's really all that's been going on.
There hasn't been anything terribly entertaining.
Yeah, I kind of feel the same.
I don't know how...
Like, what are...
Okay, so the meta is basically farm the shit, right?
Like, I didn't get the...
Like, I didn't...
I wasn't...
I didn't listen to the points spaces last time, Dragos.
But it was, like...
I got, I think, more than 100 points per ETH.
Like, actually, a lot more.
So it's, like, 120 or so.
130.
I didn't sell anything.
So maybe it was that.
But, like, are there any interesting rooms you guys have noticed?
Like, because, like, Dingaling is doing his raffles, right?
I thought artists would be coming more.
But that's stagnated.
I think they focused more on security, right?
Like, 2FA and, like, some UI upgrades, which are okay-ish.
But what else?
Do you guys have any insight on that?
I mean, not much has changed, to be honest.
Maybe that's the problem.
But it's also at a point where...
It's really big, man.
Like, 50 million.
You know, you say TVL is low for farm.
And it is.
But also, it's hard to deploy that much money.
It's not like you can just throw, as a whale, like, a few million into it and just let it work.
It's hard to grow your account now.
Like, if you weren't in the beginning, like, I don't even understand.
Like, if you can't self-buy, like, people aren't really...
I don't know if people are 33-ing in between the low end and, like, 1E.
Like, it's going to be hard to, like, find anyone.
Like, at this point, it's only...
If you're below...
If you've been around since the beginning and you're at that price, you either, A, like, didn't have enough money to get higher or, B, you defected so much that you're stuck there.
So, it's, like, almost impossible to, like, even climb the ladder now.
So, it's, like, a really interesting aspect of, like, what's going on.
And that's why we're, like, in a gridlock at the moment, which, again, I'm fine with.
Like, we have a little bit of a break.
It's crazy.
And, you know, unless they find another way to gamify it and get more liquidity on there.
I don't know if you can do the lending or...
Yeah, like, the friendly, right?
Yeah, but I don't think something like that's even going to...
Like, it's not...
I don't know.
That's going to be Ponzi squared.
Jesus.
I mean, I'm fine with the state that it's in.
I think it just grew very fast and...
Same.
It just has to chill for a bit.
And, of course, they need to bring new...
They need to bring new stuff in the fold, right?
But I wouldn't want to see TVL go to 100 million, like, in the next three weeks.
I would hate that.
But, like, actually, right now, it's the best time to farm, right?
Like, last week...
Well, best time to farm was in the first four weeks.
But, yeah, this is the second best time to farm.
The second best.
I agree.
I agree.
That's totally correct.
But, yeah.
Okay.
So, what is the meta, then?
Just, like...
Honestly, man, I don't know.
It feels like activity has gone down quite a bit.
Yeah.
The app is kind of slow, which is annoying.
Like, it's...
I don't know if it's the...
All these, like, Sibyl accounts.
So, I was saying before you jumped on and before Brett and others jumped on that there's, like...
There's been, like, 200,000 accounts created in the past week or something.
There's been, like, 45,000 accounts created in the past day.
There's, like, some people...
Because you get one point just for signing up to the app per week, I think, even if you're inactive.
So, there's people going with that approach to, like, farm the airdrop.
So, I'm wondering if that contributes to the app being so damn slow.
I'm hoping they're planning to, like, update the app or, like, create a new one or something.
Because it's just...
I don't know if this is going to fly in the long run.
But they also have still quite a bit of time.
So, I don't think it's, like, that pressing.
Yeah.
It's not been loading for me today.
I don't know why.
Like, it's not...
Okay, now it's loaded, actually.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Like, what would you guys love to see, though?
Like, now, where it's a little bit more quiet and I guess you have more time to build?
All right.
Try and add some stuff.
How do I sound?
Any different?
We hear the real voice of Brett.
Very sexy voice.
Yeah.
All right.
Cool.
So, it is working.
Wow.
This is so weird.
Is it different?
Yeah.
It actually sounds like your actual voice.
I mean, I don't know what your voice sounds like.
IRL.
But I can tell that it's...
Yeah, I've been going through headsets the last few.
Yeah.
Very manly.
Yeah.
You sounded like a woman before.
So, yeah.
I appreciate that.
Now you guys know my true identity.
No, but it sounded like...
I don't know.
It sounded like you had like an...
Kind of like an...
Not an echo, but it almost felt like you're speaking from somewhere afar.
And now it feels like you're right there.
The word is crispy.
Yeah.
Crispy.
Yeah.
There we go.
All right.
Coffee.
We're going to do hands around here.
What up, dude?
What's up, man?
I just wanted to respond to Bog.
And I know he's involved with all the other apps.
So he might, you know, not be wholly into all the metas and stuff like that in Frentech.
But I just want to say from perspective of, you know, people who didn't deploy about, you know, 50 ETH or whatnot,
is that there are definitely pockets within the ecosystem that are deploying right now.
I find that the 3.3 meta has definitely shifted to a vouching system.
People are looking at each other, looking at their activities, seeing who's a real player, who's not a real player,
and steady deployment of capital.
Like at least from my side of the ecosystem, we're seeing, I'm seeing, you know, poor values go up.
And I think that's just an indication of, okay, when that happens, like, okay, you're picking on the right partners to grow with, right?
And there's a lot of that talk.
Like, okay, are we on the same kind of path, line up?
And, you know, are we teaming up for this and we're contributing to the others?
Are we talking sticky sticky right now?
Well, I'll let Dawn talk about that.
I'll let Dawn talk about that.
He's the guru of sticky.
But I'm definitely within that kind of sticky kind of meta right now.
And I hooked up with Dawn.
But last weekend, it's been great.
It's been great.
So I just wanted to give you, you know, kind of what I'm seeing from, you know, putting my ears to the ground.
And there's a lot of, like, wallet watching, account watching, who you team up with.
And then, oh, that person team with that person.
Okay, let me hit that DM and say, hey, can we, you know, link up or whatnot.
So there's a lot going on.
What is the basis for this?
Is it, like, also, like, an evolving or evolvement of 3.3?
Or, like, what is this based on?
I'll let Dawn hop in here.
Yeah, exactly.
Go on, Dawn.
I was just curious.
It looked like you were talking coffee, but it was somebody else's voice.
Well, the question was from Orly, but, like, coffee was talking before.
Oh, yeah.
So, yeah, I mean, sticky, sticky, sticky.
I love it.
It's, you know, it's somewhat of an evolution of 3.3, but it's really more geared towards your own key and your own room and what you're doing for your holders, along with, basically, your room is what is sticky, right?
And, you know, you get to sticky, sticky because you find people that have sticky rooms because, A, number is going up because people are not selling.
There's more buys than there are sells.
And then, B, you know, PPE has been very high for these types of accounts.
So, you know, Anonymix and I had, you know, some really good chats a couple weeks ago.
And, you know, I was part of the OM, you know, 3.3 movement.
You know, I did marketing for them, did, you know, policy for, you know, some of the forks.
And, you know, I saw it, you know, I saw the good and I saw the bad and it's just impossible to blind 3.3 and, you know, gate that system without, you know, the house of cards falling.
So, you know, building up, you know, the room to be sticky, if you will, is more about finding people that, you know, have that same ethos of, okay, you know, the 3.3 methodology of, you know, a blind 3.3, it can crash and it can crash quick.
And it's a ripple effect through the entire ecosystem.
And it happened a few times.
Happened a number of times, you know, two or three weeks ago back when we were also talking about the security issues, right?
So, you know, the rooms that are, you know, I consider sticky and, you know, the people in the keys, if you will, are the rooms that were unaffected by that.
So, you know, you'll see, I'd say like 80, 90% of rooms in that week, maybe more, 95%, you know, that week of uncertainty, that week of FUD where, you know, there were also people making excuses on SIM swaps, but there were more people that really did get SIM swaps.
And, you know, I was looking back at, you know, my chart, you know, Anonymix's chart and, you know, we barely had a scratch and, you know, we were diving into like what the reasoning was.
And the reasoning was we, you know, weren't going about it, just pumping our value and, you know, blind 3.3ing with, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 ETH.
So, some people are doing this.
Is the main difference, is the main difference just that you guys are basically careful who you 3.3 with?
Like, that's basically it, right?
Because I'm, like, my...
Well, it's really not that because it, like, I don't really 3.3 with everybody.
And I don't hold everybody's key that, you know, holds my key.
I think Drago's is getting ready to go where we typically go, which is, like, it's mindful.
3.3.
Yeah, exactly.
It's kind of similar to what we've been doing.
Because I have the same as you.
Like, I haven't really been affected by...
I haven't really been rugged and I haven't really been affected key price-wise by, like, the mass defections.
I somehow avoided everything except for root, which I kind of regret.
And I bought more than one key to, like, flip a few.
But that was, like, literally the only one.
Otherwise, I'm just, like, as soon as I reached the point...
Because I was doing 3.3 in the beginning and that's how I met.
Because in the beginning, like, the first week or two, everyone who was doing 3.3 was the people genuinely enjoying and using the platform.
So, it's, like, naturally it was pretty hard to get rugged because you kind of shared the same values.
And then it kind of turned into this thing where, like, everyone was looking for 3.3 partners to just pump up their key price.
And I think because we deployed so much in those first few weeks, I always kept adding, like, a bit more and a bit more.
And I was always really careful who I 3.3'd with.
And I reciprocated for a lot of my buys, but not all of them.
And some people were pissed off because I had friend-friend in my name and they thought I would just, like, blindly buy back everyone.
Even though I have, like, 93% reciprocity rate.
But, yeah, basically I stopped, like, 3.4 weeks ago to just, like, blindly 3.3 everyone.
And I'm just really careful who I reciprocate with and I just buy keys that I really want to have.
So, kind of sounds similar.
But I don't have the sticky-sticky thing in my name.
It's just, that's okay.
It is similar.
And, you know, the sticky, like I mentioned, it's more about your own room and your own key.
So, for instance, like, my, you know, my key right now, I've got 77 holders.
I think there's 100 keys held.
But I only hold 32.
I only hold 32.
So, like, I, having experience in the past and seeing what can happen, you know, I didn't jump into it with the blind 3.3 and, like, shooting my price up and doing all of that because I just knew, you know, the cascade effect and the ripple effect that can happen to the room.
So, I've been very protective of the room itself.
And that's what is the sticky part, right?
So, if you have, you know, more, you're not having much volatility, you're having much more buys than sells, you know, it's a steady, you know, it's a steady up only.
You know, sometimes you're crabbing to the side, but that's okay.
You know, we're all farming, right?
So, crabbing to the side is fine.
But if you look at the top, you know, top 10 PPE, you know, per, you know, like, 1 to 10 E portfolio value, 10 to 50, you know, and 100 plus, if you look at all those top 10, like, 95% of them are in that same mindset and that same range of, you know, I don't hold 1,500 keys.
You know, I hold typically, you know, less keys than are held in my room.
And that stat not only is, you know, making a safe haven for your holders, it's also giving them a place where they're farming the, you know, most optimal points.
And, you know, people aren't leaving, you know, you're giving them a reason to say, you know, that stickiness, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's, yeah, it's similar to what, I mean, I was like, I don't know, like, I was, I had like one less PPE than Anonymous in the same, like, portfolio range.
Like, I was pretty high up there.
Didn't, but I still hold, I hold like 100 plus people.
But still, I don't know how those are calculated.
I don't know what I did, like, what I'm doing right, et cetera.
But yeah, that's basically it.
Yeah, I think we can pretty universally say that no one fucking knows.
Well, 100 plus, that's not, that's not bad.
I mean, some people hold like thousands of keys.
And what's happening is they're getting nerfed by, like, they're nerfing all the bot keys and all the alt keys and all that shit.
So, like, when you boil it down and you look at it from that perspective, like 100 plus.
But we can't even say that, right?
Like, we don't know, we literally don't know anything.
And people, like, we thought we knew last week enough to the point where Constant, who has 600 ETH on the platform, tried to rotate several hundred of that ETH only to get a lower PPE the following week.
So, like, I don't know, man, like, to act like we, anyone even has any ideas is kind of weird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the biggest thing is even though.
Everyone's speculating, so it's a speculation game.
If you send racer some feet picks, I heard you get, like, 10 more points per ETH.
Dude, he was getting sold off pretty hard this week, this past week.
I think he's down to, like, what, two or three ETH now?
I think he went down to three ETH.
Is he lower than that?
Well, I think what happened.
I mean, he's not active in his room, so it's, like, you know, why hold?
Yeah, I think that's the ultimate dictator, or dictator, indication of what's going to be someone that holds their actions.
Like, even if it is just, like, shitty GMs, just being at least around tends to make people hold a little bit better.
But, yeah, he hasn't been doing that shit.
Right.
I mean, I'm sure he's busy doing, you know, doing other things.
There's so much going on on Frontech and, like, shit to fix, right?
So I imagine he's, you know, he's busy doing that and can't really manage a room.
I mean, we all know what managing a room is like, right?
It's fucking nonstop.
The grind is nonstop, so it's fun.
But, you know, at the same time, I could see why his key price went down.
So, it's, I mean, fuck, he's running the company and he also has a, you know, he also has a room.
So, that's two full-time jobs right there.
What would you guys expect for them to add to the app?
I've been hearing some rumors that there's more stuff coming.
There were people on the space on Friday dreaming, having dreamt a few changes.
I'm curious what you guys would love to see.
Oh, can I say something to this?
Yeah, actually, yeah, because you've been away from it, kind of away from it for a while.
So, maybe you bring a fresh perspective.
But I'll cut you off if it's technically unfeasible, by the way.
Cut me, cut me, man.
So, something that I would love would be to focus a little bit more on artists.
I would love to see, like, mints, maybe some mints through the app.
Yeah, some, maybe some, something like that.
I don't know if it's technically feasible, but I would love to see some, maybe some voice chat.
Yeah, and at some point, maybe some video stuff.
So, like, that, that's, so, so, artists, like, focus a little bit more on artists.
Give them, like, capabilities to mint.
Yeah, make it easier to airdrop stuff, something like KeyDrop has been doing.
But, like, I guess these three things.
So, minting, the video, voice, pinning, of course, all that pinning stuff.
I don't know how it's not there yet.
It should be pretty simple.
And, and I guess when you have that, it's already so much better.
So, I guess these, these, these things would be amazing.
Yeah, notifications for me, you know, I noticed that, I'm sure you guys, like, Brett and Dragos, like, both you guys probably launch in many conversations.
And then if somebody, like, randomly answers back, like, an hour later, like, you'll never almost see that unless you click everything.
So, usually I do want, like, a GMing spree, and then sometimes I, like, comment on somebody's, you know, interesting posts, and then maybe that person will get back to me.
But, you know, I have to go, go away for two hours or whatever, whatever, and that's almost certainly lost in the conversation.
So, I'd love to see that, number one.
So, yeah, actually, the GM spree is something that, so, because I have people come to my room and do the same thing, or they're just, like, hey, Brett, coming in to drop this in for my daily point arm.
But, like, I, like, I have a pretty good PPE ratio on a nearly 200 ETH position, and I don't do any of that shit.
I talk in my room fairly consistently at random times throughout the day, because my sleep schedule is bullshit.
But, and then I have, like, five or six rooms that I'll dip into periodically, and it's usually, like, an assorted, like, people that hit my room, I'll dive back into their room and talk, or I'll go into, like, a few people that I can maintain conversations in.
But I would say it's under 10 easily that I go into and hang out in any consistent manner.
So, I don't know that the whole, like, go around and be active in as many chances as possible is it might just be burning you guys' ass and yourselves out, in my opinion.
I agree with you, Brad.
I mean, it's, you know, going into, like, 100 plus rooms, that's fucking crazy.
You know, and gee, I mean, it takes, like, it would take, like, you know, a couple hours.
I'm the same as you.
Like, I nurture my room, and then I'm in a couple other rooms.
I mean, like you said, 10, I mean, under 10 is a good number that I would say I'm in as well.
Otherwise, it's just, like, it's just spam and bullshit, which, you know, is what it is, but, you know, people are going to do what they want to do.
There is an interesting solution done by Dan.
Wait, what's it called?
Let me, ah.
Robo, what was it called?
Wait.
RoboSuite?
Yeah, RoboSuite, yeah.
So, basically, you have to, he's working on, like, he already has this built internally, but he's doing, he might launch something where you basically can port your Frentech chat into Telegram.
And you would have, like, you know how you have the Telegram channels with, like, a bunch of subchannels, kind of like Discord?
So, basically, every chat on your Frentech would be a subchannel, and then you would have everything on Telegram, and it moves really fast, et cetera.
You see when people reply to your messages.
So, like, it sorts all that functionality out.
The only drawbacks, because I've been talking to him, and I've been considering, like, do I actually want to do this or not?
But I'm not sure, if I did that, I would probably only use Telegram and not Frentech, and I'm not sure, well, technically, the messages would still be sent via Frentech.
So, maybe that's not a big concern, but I'm not sure if they would count my activity as much as before.
Like, I'm kind of paranoid with that.
What if, like, it doesn't register, because I'm not on the Frentech app, and it's, like, going through the API or whatever the thing is.
So, I'm kind of scared about that, about my points being nerfed.
And then you're giving, you're not giving, so you're not giving your private key, you're not giving access to, like, your wallet.
So, like, if that were hacked, which is pretty much their service would need to be hacked, because it's, like, Telegram's quite secure.
Or, you wouldn't, like, they wouldn't be able to, like, buy and sell keys, which is fine, but they would be able to, like, send messages and stuff.
So, I mean, I guess they could instigate, like, a mass dump or whatever.
Or, like, a pump and dump of another, I don't know.
They could control your messaging.
That's not that likely, but it's something to be aware of.
So, yeah, that's the good part.
The good part is that it's not, there's, like, two tokens that you can give access to, and this is not the one that controls the buys and sells.
So, that's interesting.
That also, I was speaking to him, and I was also curious if someone would be able to use that to build, to basically replicate everything in Telegram or in another app, right?
If the Frentech app itself is not up to par.
But then I don't see why Frentech wouldn't try to improve their app to make it really, really highly performing.
So, there's that.
But, basically, this all started because I mentioned, like, two weeks ago on a space that, like, the only thing that I want desperately is to have an at sign whenever I get a reply in another chat room.
And he messaged me saying, like, hey, I already built this.
That's fucking awesome to hear.
Having that would be huge.
And then, yeah, having, like, something you could pin, you know, so new people can see that, you know, that's big as well.
You know, like, a daily pin, maybe.
I don't know.
But, yeah, like, replies.
Like you said, like, if somebody doesn't reply for, shit, five or ten minutes, even, you're on to the next thing.
And you may not even see it.
So, yeah, I mean, that'd be huge.
Yeah.
If we're talking features, like, what we want to see, I'm going to be honest and say I want TVL to continue to go up.
And the only way TVL is going up is they cut these fucking fees in half.
So that's where my feature request goes.
I'll deal with the dog should have.
It was, this thing was much more fun when numbers are going up than it is when numbers are going sideways.
And I think numbers going up is only going to happen whenever they deal with the core issues that they have with the actual protocol.
And that comes with fees.
So I want them to reduce the protocol fees because I've said the last thing.
Do you really think it's the fees, though?
I do.
You want activity within the ecosystem, right?
And what's going to dictate activity?
It's people making money, right?
Are people thinking that they can make money?
No, it's actually people recognizing value, right?
And then being willing to pay for that value.
And then if it's worth it for you to pay fees that are 10%, then you will do it.
And people did it, right?
It's not like people, like it was insane volume, right?
We had more fees on Frentech than on Uniswap.
Like, I don't even know, 2x, 3x more?
And people were...
Yeah, but you got to think, that was at the start.
People are getting, people are way smarter now.
Yeah, but why?
Is it because they woke up and saw, like, hey, there's actually less value here than we thought there was, right?
Like, having access to all these individuals, right?
It's not a value prop.
It's a recognition prop in terms of people's eyes opening.
And a lot of people lost a lot of fucking money.
And, I mean, a lot of people made a ton of money as well.
But a lot of people lost a lot of money and they don't talk about it.
And nobody talks about it.
But those fees are fucking huge.
I mean, if you sell a key, if, you know, if I were to go sell...
Wait, who lost?
What do you mean they lost a lot of money from what?
Because we haven't really had, like, a downturn yet.
Like, a crazy downturn.
Well, people buying keys and then getting dunked on because someone cheats or whatever, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And, like, people...
Yeah, but, like, the fees contribute to that.
They're not doing nearly as much.
The fees contribute to that, but they're not, like, the main reason.
Of course not.
Of course not.
No, it's just a portion of it.
But it is, I mean...
It's just bad judgment.
It's a lot.
And, shit, I mean, at the end of the day, maybe they're keeping the fees like that
because they really, they truly care more about, you know, socialization than the financialization part.
We'll see.
But, like you said, we need TVL to continue to drive up.
And we're, you know, kind of stuck at that point of 50 million, which it's funny because it's just like a shitcoin.
Where shitcoins, they hit that 50 million mark and most of them don't make it past.
And if they do, they're going to go right to 100 million, right to 250.
Yeah, but let me ask you a question.
Why do they make it past 50 million?
Because sentiment.
Buyer sentiment.
Where does sentiment come from?
Sentiment.
Oh, we can start going down this value.
Like, dude, talk to me about Pepe having actual value.
Right.
It's like, like, all of this comes from, like, people have thinking something's fundamentally valuable, right?
Pepe is fundamentally more valuable than Shiba because it's just a better meme.
I don't know, like, Uniswap being fundamentally valuable because it's just, like, a better Dex than Sushi.
I don't know.
Like, it goes, it goes crazy.
Okay, and I think a protocol that doesn't gouge its customers is fundamentally more valuable than one that doesn't.
So, it's the exact same thing.
Like, we can attribute value to anything.
And I think ignoring the fact that the protocol has siphoned off 20 million in value whenever the total value locked is 50 million is pretty fucking crazy.
Yeah, I can agree with that.
Like, the number is insane.
That I do agree with.
They basically – no, it took 40 million in value, right?
20 million is their cut.
20 million is what the team has and 20 million is what –
Well, right.
I'm only talking about their – I don't care about the creator cut.
I think the creator cut's fine.
I think that drives ecosystem.
That keeps the flywheel going.
But taking it off and sitting in a pool on the side, that's a fucking crazy number.
I know what you mean.
But if you look at it, there's 50 million TVL and there's been 40 million paid in fees.
Correct.
Yeah.
So, you know, like, even if it goes back into the ecosystem, people still paid that 20 million in fees.
So, yeah, it's kind of – it would probably need to go down.
What if they do, like – what if they do, like, 7.5% and 2.5% or 2.5, 2.55 or something?
I don't think they could drop the creator fee.
I think what they can do is drop their fee.
That's what I meant.
They drop their fee to 2.5%.
Like Fred said, you know, yeah.
You know, the creator fee is essential for the flywheel.
And, you know, for them, I mean, yeah, they've made 20 million.
So, yeah, I mean, if they dropped it – I mean, we'd have to model out numbers, of course,
to see what their valuation and, you know, profitability numbers would be.
But, I mean, 2.5% or 5%, you know, that seems reasonable.
I mean, just match what SA is doing.
SA has the 7.2.1.
Just do the 7% to match them because then you can have a pivot later on down the road.
Or just fucking reduce theirs.
Like, they don't even have to bump up the creator stuff.
They can just say, okay, we're cutting ours down to the 2.5 or the 2.
And then the traders keep their stuff.
So, I think that's also –
I mean, their fees went down from – like they were doing a million a day, right?
And for a while there.
Total fees.
So, like maybe 500K their share, I think.
Like the protocol is doing one million a day.
And now it's doing 100K.
So, it's really, really died down activity-wise.
So, they either –
Yeah, I mean, it's a combination of money on the sidelines waiting for the next, you know,
the next catalyst and the next move.
And then, you know, the other combination is people have, you know, realized I'm not going to fucking shit my money away.
And, you know, pay these fucking ridiculous fees.
So, they're being much more careful with their buys.
Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between the money going to the creators and the money going to the team.
Of course, yeah, the team needs to eat.
But I think when more of the money goes to the creators, they end up reinvesting back into the platform.
So, I think that will be a significant change that will have a big impact if they simply just make the creator fees to 7.5% instead of the 5%.
Or, I mean, just anything.
Yeah, they can lower it.
But I still think they should take advantage of that 10% that they have.
And if they siphon that back to the creators, it will automatically increase the TVL because the creators are going to end up investing back into the platform.
One, and then two, they're now going to be earning 7.5% instead of 5%.
So, now they're like, okay, forget the stars arena.
I'm sure I was making 8% or 7%, whatever it was over there.
Now, I'm just going to come back to Frintech because this is where all the liquidity is.
It's similar to what happens like with the alt layer ones in the Ethereum trade.
Everyone was playing on the layer ones because they were getting paid to do it and they were making more money over there.
But as soon as they were able to make more money on ETH because they realized that liquidity was leaving, then it became the game in town to play.
And I see Frintech as that Ethereum native layer for all these social fide apps.
And the others are just other layer ones or in one instance, like new Bitcoin city, almost like a side chain or a layer two.
To that, I say, I will make a tweet at some point.
Yes, I have abandoned Frintech despite supporting it in the past.
And yes, Frintech has abandoned its creators despite supporting them in the past.
What could be very smart is they run sort of a Lehman scale as if like an investment banking firm would do, right?
So then they would still get their 10% rip on those early fees.
But once your key, say, hits 0.2, it drops to 7.5%.
Once your key hits 0.5, it drops to 5%.
Nope, not happening.
Won't happen.
That's a contract change.
That's not happening.
Dude, I don't think they're changing.
It can't happen.
They're not going to alter fees.
Like, they're just going to pull the OpenSea method and probably like do nothing for like a while.
Yeah, because they can afford it.
Could you imagine?
We're just going to be debating for 16 weeks and they're just going to be collecting fees, man.
I hope like, you know, I hope I'm wrong.
They can afford it.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, go for it, Brent.
And I'm just going to say like, if that is the outcome, that's, I mean, we've been saying since the very beginning,
the people who trade are the ones who are going to get chopped up doing all this stuff.
So the whole point of all this shit was to find people.
So you don't have to fucking trade.
You find your people and you just chill.
And then net new capital is what pumps your bags for the portfolio value, right?
So, like, that's the thing.
So I haven't, I think I've bought, fuck, five people in the last two or three weeks.
Like, I'm not moving at all because it's just, that doesn't warrant the haircut of the actual trading.
So just sit on your fucking money, collect your points, do whatever.
And then if they do trade or change their protocol fees, which, again, I do think is absolutely required for the ecosystem,
then just for general health, because you have to service, I think, everyone in this environment.
So you want to service traders, you want to service whales, you want to have capital flow.
I think velocity is generally healthy for any given ecosystem.
And if you don't have that, then you have this gridlock situation where things feel stagnant, even if they really aren't.
So, yeah, I'll just sit pretty until then.
Why would new people come to the app?
Why would new people come?
Because you're still getting money on your ETH.
It's still a good farm.
The hard part is, like, people...
Apart from the farm, like, let's say, like, if you play to farm, then the token will probably be worthless.
It's going to be worth zero.
Yeah, I see what it means.
It's zero.
Like, why do people actually come?
Like, I think that's a legit question.
It's a very important question.
And I answered that for myself.
But, like, I would love to know why you guys...
I think it's still about connecting with people, right?
Like, I'm still doing it because of that.
I'm still talking to people.
But there's no novelty on my end because I kind of feel like most...
Like, all the people in crypto who would have jumped on this at this point have already jumped in.
It's a matter of what happens to attract the others or more people coming into crypto who start using this.
For me, personally, it's been super helpful in broadening my network and connecting with, like, really, really cool people.
Bread included.
I actually include bread in that category.
But I don't feel like there's, like, significantly more people now that...
Or maybe I'm at a point where I have so many...
It becomes unmanageable, right, at some point.
Like, when you have so many chats, it's pretty hard unless the app...
If the app had Telegram-like functionality where I could add people into folders, dude, I would be all over it.
Because I'm...
Dude, that would be sick.
Yeah, you're probably the same early as me, right?
Like, I'm on top of Telegram.
I have folders.
I, like, check a shit ton of chats every day.
But with Frentech, I've kind of reached my limit because it's really hard for me to track, like, what I...
Yeah, it is.
Dude, if you want to type GM in all my channels...
Like, I have 700 keys right now because I just want to be maximally connected, right, to all the founders, KOLs, VCs, etc.
Like, I would have to scroll...
I don't know, scroll, like, 30 seconds to get...
Yeah, and it's hard to find people as well.
It's super hard to find them.
And, yeah, search bar would be interesting, right, where you can search people, right?
Within your chats, yeah.
But right now, it's, like, very clunky.
You have to search by their ID and stuff.
But, like, if I can come back to the thing, why would new people come?
Like, the only reason for me why new people would come is because the alpha is on Frentech, because the connections are on Frentech, because the value is on Frentech.
Yeah, I mean, new people come for many reasons.
They're going to come, A, you know, to farm, because there's going to be a very nice airdrop at the end.
And I think Frentech should come out and talk about, you know, the fees that they're collecting and how that's going to go towards the airdrop and the LP.
But that's something down the line, right?
But people, I mean, people would come because they want to grow their network.
They want to get outside of their current eco-chambers.
They want to find new, you know, people that they vibe with.
And they can, you know, it's similar to Twitter in terms of, like, content creation.
You can use Twitter to create content, but you don't get paid by Twitter, right?
Like, so, you know, there's so many fucking great content creators that don't get paid shit.
There's artists out there that get paid dog shit.
But then, like, Frentech would have to focus on that, right?
There's plenty of people that, you know, could utilize Frentech.
And one thing that, you know, we don't talk about enough, in my opinion, is the lack of overall marketing by Frentech.
They're collecting these fees.
They should be fucking marketing everything.
They're not allowed to.
They can't speak about the app.
They can't at all?
Yeah, legal reasons.
That's pretty wild.
They even, they even, they used to talk about it more before, but they're not talking about it now.
Like, almost at all.
They're just, they're just saying, like, hey, we update.
They're just basically communicating through app.
Like, whenever they update the app, they communicate the updates, and that's it.
I don't know if you noticed that.
Why don't they just pay other creators?
Like, pay people to do it for them?
Is racer on the space?
If you want to send a sponsorship our way, my address is 0x.
Let me check.
I'll dictate all the digits right now.
Like, legitimately, legitimately, they should sponsor this space.
Like, hands down.
I'm serious.
I'm just missing.
I'm just missing.
I'm just missing.
What did you want to say?
They seriously should.
You host the best spaces.
They should sponsor many spaces.
If they can't market themselves, and they're making this much money, they need to have people
that are out there marketing fucking day and night, nonstop.
Space is running 24-7.
And they sponsor that.
And you earn for that.
You know, maybe it comes out of their fees.
Maybe that's why, you know, the fees are so high, because maybe they have a plan for that.
Who knows?
But they need to do work.
I've heard rumblings that they have plans to do it.
But, yeah, they haven't talked about it, obviously.
I think one thing that they should do, and I even sent them a message early on when they
had, like, $750K in their treasury, is that they should spin off a portion of it.
Now, fuck, they could do, you know, 5% of it.
And it'd be a godsend.
But make an ecosystem fund and just sponsor developer teams to build protocols on top
of Fremtech so that, you know, then we have stuff to talk about, right?
Because you have dev teams that flock to the ecosystem to build shit, novel stuff that
allow us to do stuff, expand creator, you know, abilities, whatever, all that shit.
Just like, you know, all the other chains, like Polygon, you know, they paid $10 million
for you to come over or something along those lines.
You know, if they're getting these fees, they're going to have to shell out money to, if they
can't market themselves outside of, you know, making a better app, they need word of mouth.
They need people that are going to incentivize other people to join.
They need, you know...
Yeah, and you can either pay them to talk or you can pay to give people things to talk
about, which is kind of what I think doing the ecosystem fund would be good.
But you guys were just talking about the net value of this stuff, why you do it, the whole
alpha connections, all that shit.
And, like, all that stuff is good and I agree, but I still think you can't have that without
acknowledging the shortcomings of, again, the fees.
Because it takes a...
Because this stuff exists on a bonding curve and because you want traders and speculators
and all this shit to subsidize the underlying people that are actually utilizing the stuff,
which...
Or that you said you're sitting here, you're buying 500,000 people to sit there and just sit
in their chat and you never plan on selling them because you want to utilize the connection,
whatever, whether you're the person that's going to buy them and sit on them or if you're
the person that says, hey, I have...
I can only maintain five meaningful relationships and I want to be able to rotate from one to
the other.
You don't want them to get fucking cloppered over the head to go...
To be able to rotate, right?
If I only have five chats and rotate through my five chats, I want to be able to look at
a two-week price and say, it's okay for me to rotate from one to the other without
getting fucking cloppered.
So, again, it goes back to the fees where if you reduce the fees and you allow the speculators
to play alongside the utilizers, then those two people can work in conjunction with each
other and have the speculators flip and fail sometimes to subsidize the actual utilizers
and have some of the utilizers that don't want to just park their cash but actually be
able to feel comfortable rotating without getting beat.
You want to be able to have all that shit.
I think it's just the pendulum's too far swung in the...
It sucks to move capital in the ecosystem right now.
It always has been that way, but it was okay because there was so much inflows that it paid
or it didn't matter.
It kind of obfuscated it, but we're now at the point where the inflows have stopped.
So now people are clutching their pearls, rightfully so.
Yeah, exactly.
Like for me, I have tested some of the other like Post Tech and some Stars Arena stuff.
But like just from my thinking, like Bitcoin, Ethereum, all these L1s are social networks,
right?
And now you have a social network on a social network, which is kind of like network effect
squared.
It's...
In my opinion, they're not going to make it, like all of them.
And like Front Tech is in a very, very good position right now.
Like the only challenges, and that's what I said like weeks ago in one of Dragos' spaces
is something that's lacking for my POV is the lack of experimentation.
And I do understand that you can't really experiment on Front Tech because you're putting
like, I don't know, 50 million TVL at risk, right?
But like we need to experiment, like we need to experiment with Brett, what Brett said, like
lower fees, we need to experiment with all that stuff.
And I would just love to see ways how we can actually try it without like, with real money,
but without like jeopardizing everything that has already worked.
It's tricky, man.
Yeah.
Yeah, go for it, Drake.
Go for it.
Yeah, I was just going to say one of the things first is what I believe is going to happen
to solve those fees is there's probably going to be some form of protocol or project that
comes out that will allow you to rent these keys.
So what they will do is they'll pay the upfront cost in it.
No, that ain't happening.
I'm just going to shut you down.
Nope.
Nope.
Can't happen.
Renting keys and stuff.
It's all smart contract change not happening.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, it's going to be, it's going to be on a protocol level to where they rent that key.
They now have access to that actual room itself.
So if you want to go in that room and kind of get a side view, there's going to be a
protocol on top of this or some form of UI that will allow you to get access and view
that.
So instead of just like a mirror and just seeing like the chats, instead, it's going
to be like, Hey, you can put it in a chat type of thing.
Okay.
Hold on.
I'm going to entertain this.
I'm going to entertain this, Drake.
And now I'm going to think a little bit more.
Okay.
So, so Dragos, this goes back to your, your API key share thing that you're talking about
with, with Dan, maybe Dan's in the room.
If you're listening to this, Dan, let's, let's cook a little bit.
So how about this?
You set up a, an account and then that account buys, well, so it's only for their room, right?
Their API key, right?
Dragos.
Or could you actually chat into other rooms with that?
You can, so you would chat on the AP or on that UI and it would send it throughout.
So here's an example.
Like if you go on new Bitcoin city right now, if you hold a friend tech key of that
person, you're able to go in their new Bitcoin city room.
So it would be similar to that.
But when you send a chat in there, you will get a response through that UI.
And this is specifically for friend tech.
So in order to get access to that quote unquote chat room, you would have to rent that key.
So let's say the daily rental on a bread key, the $10, I pay $10 and I'm in that chat for
a day.
And then the key basically just vaporizes because it's a, a timed key.
So it's one of those things like I'll, I'll get in 10 minutes and then after it expires.
Are you guys, are you guys familiar with, with the nibble and I BBL?
No, is it, is it similar to what Drake is discussing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So nibble, I'm actually working with them and it's kind of a whitelist opportunity for
all my key holders right now.
They built a beta decks for basically a perp decks.
Um, so they're going to be having to, like Drake mentioned, like it's another protocol
and they're going to be having, you know, the ability to trade on chain assets.
Uh, they already do it with NFTs and they do fractionalize NFTs and now they're doing
it with front tech keys.
Um, so it's going to be like low slippage.
You'll have leverage and, you know, ability to trade these perps.
Um, the fees aren't going to be 20%.
Of course, there's going to be fees baked in that are going to be going straight to the
Um, I haven't gotten an answer yet from them on what the dollar one fees are going to be.
If it's just, if it's just doing perps, we have a bunch of perps already.
Like what is the difference between crypto techers?
It's going to be, it's going to be a combination.
So you, you're basically going to be able to trade, you know, basically you're going to
be able to trade keys off, you know, off of front tech without that 20%, you know,
rip.
Right.
So wrapped keys, like that's, there's like nine people doing that separate.
Yeah.
There's already, can we, can we get back to the discussion?
Like, I want to understand if this is feasible, like what Drake is saying from a technical
perspective, cause you were about to answer him, Bryn.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
So that's why I wanted to go to you, Dragoz.
Cause like, you know, you talked about giving up your API key to have access to Dan's tools,
right?
It gave you a big old whatever.
So I was going to say, like, if you were to dedicate a room that could acquire keys from
other people and then give up that API key, would that allow you to then be able to send
messages from a third party into all these various rooms?
Because in that way you could have one ownership of one key, right?
Like if I purchase a Dragoz key, I have access to your chat and to my chat because that's how
it works.
Right.
That's easy to solve that.
That's easy.
Just buy two keys.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Let me finish.
So, so I have those two keys.
If I were to give up my bread API key, does that give me the ability to, to post in a Dragoz
room so that now, cause yes, we've had mirrors, whatever.
So it, it displays the view elsewhere.
But if I were to get like a Levi key, could I give that up to a third party and then have anyone
be able to submit a message there?
That message can be broadcast to any of the rooms that are owned by that API key is what
I was asking.
So like Dragoz, if you turn over your key, you know, your fear is yes, the person that
has that API key in this case, the person with the telegram bot could send messages on
your behalf without you knowing, right?
That's scary, whatever.
But that could also be a feature, right?
If I create something, I, I specifically give up the API key to allow anyone who submits
to this third party application that I build up to send a message to any of the rooms
that I own a key to, then it becomes a funnel or whatever.
But I don't know if it extends to all these other rooms or only to my own room is my question.
And that's where if I squint, I can kind of see what, what Drake is talking about.
The renting of a key straight up is just not going to happen like on a technical level
on a smart contract level, but like the kind of renting pseudo thing, maybe.
To answer your question, I have no idea.
I am.
Okay, I'll ask Dan.
Yeah.
I have him in DMs.
I'll just send him a message.
I'll stand because I have no idea.
Ace.
Ace came up here with his hand up.
I'm sorry, dude.
We kept you waiting.
We just kind of do it free flowing up here.
What's up?
No, it's all good, man.
I just kind of wanted to give, you know, some perspective from, you know, someone who was
a little late, later to friend tech.
And I think you made a good point about like speculators.
So I did get on early to friend tech, but I didn't put enough money in.
And then, you know, three, four weeks ago, I was getting ready to load up probably like
10 Ethereum, nothing too crazy.
And I saw this spreadsheet where it was like, you know, break even, break even points on,
you know, key prices and to buy someone at two Ethereum for you to break even on that
person, you'd have to have 20 net buys on that person.
And even someone who was like 0.2 Ethereum, you'd need like 10 net buys.
So my kind of my point I'm getting at is the fees are so high that it's really hard for
speculators and people who are late to come in and keep pushing these prices up because
why in the world am I going to buy someone for two Ethereum that, hey, I'm not even sure
if they're that good of a room.
I'm sure they are.
And that's why they're priced that high.
But I have no way of knowing that as an outsider, for sure, unless I know somebody in that room
already.
And then B, if I don't like the room, well, I have to wait for 20 net buys to even break
even again.
So I did like the concept of, you know, decreasing the fee as someone became more expensive.
But like you said, it's a contract thing, so it can never really happen.
But then I would like to see, you know, lower fees in general.
And I think across all, you know, social buys, not just friend tech.
I think, you know, the 10% total is pretty high because as these things do grow, it becomes
harder and harder for like to justify buying somebody when, you know, you don't know for
sure if their room is going to be that valuable to you.
And if it's not, then you're probably taking a 20% hit right there, you know.
But did you buy then?
Did you buy?
Thank you for the insight.
Did you buy because you wanted to make money?
Or was that just you bought for a different reason?
And that was just something that held you off by?
Yeah.
So I kind of came into it more as like a speculator and a trader.
I didn't really see myself like using it for like the value of the chat rooms.
And that's kind of why I didn't go as crazy as I should have originally.
Like I was there in the first week or two and I put on like only like an Ethereum or something.
It just wasn't enough.
And then by the time I really was ready to go crazy, everything had kind of pumped a
bit, but I was still ready.
And that spreadsheet kind of like held me back because it made me realize that, you know,
the curve is pretty insane.
And I think, you know, a lot of people who are newer or just like haven't gone into the
space, like Frontech yet, like they missed the initial wave.
They're going to be seeing that and thinking about that too.
You know, like the best rooms all are going to have, you know, need to have 20, 30 net buys
right now just to, you know, be breakeven.
So unless you know for a fact that you're going to get value out of that room, it's
really hard to, you know, justify buying anybody that even like I said, 0.2 Ethereum buy right
now, it takes like, what, 10, 10 people, I think to break even was, was the, how it
worked.
So yeah, that's the point.
At 0.2, it's six.
At 0.5, it's 10.
When you get up to two ETH, it's 19.
Got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
I didn't remember.
That's a valid point.
But you got to think about it from a, also from a farming perspective, you're, when you're
buying those keys, not only are you, you know, in that room and you're in that network and
you're getting that network effect, if you're working at the right way, you're also getting
your farming points there.
So, you know, owning those keys can be beneficial for, you know, just for strictly farming or
for networking.
Um, obviously the whole part of the game is not knowing, right.
Not knowing what's in those rooms, but that's why word of mouth and, you know, that reputation
layer that, you know, is kind of being built, you know, through people talking to each other
and, you know, having real conversations and not just speculating on, oh, I should buy this
guy's key because it's three ETH or four ETH.
And you have no idea who this person is.
Right.
Um, so people have gotten smarter, uh, A and then B, you know, the reputation of, you
know, these keys, it doesn't, I'm not saying like go out there and buy a key that's three
ETH or two ETH or whatever, um, for profit.
But at the end of the day, if you hold that key for the next three, four months and you're
going to get a fucking ton of value out of a lot of these, I can tell you that, um,
but you do understand though, right.
Like we're talking about this farming stuff.
You do understand that if you, the only thing you were thinking about is the farming stuff
that the token is valueless and worth zero, right?
Yeah.
No, that's not like, it's like literally like that's, it's the most thing all people
talk about and I don't really understand it.
I do understand it from like the immediate thinking, right?
It's the token is TVL is TVL continues to rise.
Token value will continue to go up.
Well, the valuation will go up.
I mean, people use the app.
They get, they, they, there are genuine like interactions, connections being made via the
app and basically it becomes sticky, right?
Like that's your bet with the airdrop, of course, you're also deploying into some keys
because you want to, to accumulate points.
Like part of each of our portfolio is probably optimized for that.
I don't doubt that, but a large part of our portfolio is, I think the cool part, if you
think about it, is that all these people who are farming, like I'm in a lot of chats,
I'm, I'm, I'm talking to a lot of people on Frentech and we all got to know each other
better because we bought each other's keys because you can't, even if you want to deploy
as a whale, you cannot actually deploy like, I don't know, like 20 keys of one person because
you're going to get nerfed.
So basically you have to get in, like, get to know more people, et cetera.
And it just, if the, I think if the app was, was improved by the time the airdrop hit,
then it would accelerate this even more.
Um, yeah.
And I would love like, like that, like for us to talk, like, this is just me.
Right.
And I don't want to cancel anybody, but like, I would love to get a conversation going, going
from that angle more than from the other angle.
Right.
Yeah, of course.
Well, I think what's going to happen.
Like I've, I got to know bread.
Right.
I got to know, like drag was more closely, like all these insanely knowledgeable people.
And like, we know a bull market is coming and we're all making it together next, next
cycle.
Right.
We're, we're, we're, uh, like pioneering on the first social, social fi app that actually
has product market fit.
Um, and like, we're building this whole new, new, new, I don't know, primitive or whatever
together.
Um, and yes, we're farming an airdrop, which is like the cherry on top.
Right.
Um, so.
Yeah.
I think that's the communication.
No matter what, no matter what you use the app for your farming, it doesn't matter if
you're using the app strictly for farming or if you're using the app, you know, to socialize
your farming, regardless, you are getting points.
And also you have to think about it.
It would not have gotten to this point without the farming angle.
So I agree.
Think of the app where it was at like 5 million or 10 million TVL and where it is now.
Yeah.
A lot of that is for farming.
And a lot of those people might disappear, but a lot of people will stay as well.
By the way, Mindal, I saw you had your, your hand up.
We just, just interject whenever we don't do hands.
No, thanks.
I appreciate it.
I've just been listening to this over the last 15 minutes.
I think it's very interesting.
There's a lot of back and forth, but I'm just trying to think of models in the past in
the crypto space that have worked on like a high fee basis and then had to U-turn away
from it.
So like we had cryptocurrency exchanges in 16, 17, 18, 19.
That was the meta, right?
It was a race to low fees to entice customers and users on their platforms.
And we ended up as a user base better off because we ended up with things like Binance and Coinbase
essentially introducing no fees.
And then even in the NFT space, like this became a meta where projects would launch with
very, very low royalties or none whatsoever.
And then Blur came in and just offered a zero royalty trading experience.
I'm just wondering, like if these are hard coded into a smart contract, there must be a way
for the platform to give back these fees to creators in that case.
That's the other way.
So they actually can.
So that's the one avenue that they have to get creative out the back door.
So like there's only three things that they can change in the contract.
Basically, it's global fee for creator, global fee for protocol, right?
Those two things.
And then where they route protocol fees to.
That's it.
So if they were to route those, the protocol fees to a smart contract and then have the
smart contract do some fancy-gancy logic to route for referrals or route back to creators
or add some conditional shit, like they do have some flexibility there.
But by and large, most of this stuff is pretty locked in.
That's the only flexibility.
Can I ask you something as a complete tech noob that has no idea what he's asking?
So Manifold, we're talking about proxy contracts and stuff.
Could they actually launch?
This might sound stupid.
But could they actually like put a proxy contract on top of what's built so far and use that for the app?
Does that make any sense?
It doesn't make any sense.
What are you trying to achieve?
What do you mean?
You saw you in a proxy?
Or what?
Yeah.
Talk to me about what you're trying to achieve, Dragos.
And then I'll talk to you about what feasibility they could do.
Deploying a contract that's linked to this one that I have no idea how it's objective.
End goal.
End goal.
Don't use all the technical stuff.
What do you want to do?
Oh, get more flexibility in what you can do.
Yeah.
So no.
None of that.
Because the contract is the contract.
What they're doing with the proxy contract is just it's ownership of that specific thing.
Like the key is going to a contract.
And because the contract is programmable, that specific key that is in the ownership of that specific contract can do acute whatever things.
They can assign ownership.
They can transfer shit.
That's how they do it.
It still uses the underlying behavior of the actual contract, the native one, which has basically no flexibility whatsoever, locks itself in a contract.
But that contract, because that one thing owns it, it can do some fancy things, which is why a lot of the loaning protocols that you hear are bullshit, too, because people go, oh, look, we can get collateral on our thing.
But a lot of that leverages a proxy contract, which means ownership has to transfer from me to this proxy contract in order to utilize it.
And in order to utilize it or to transfer that ownership, because these things aren't transferable, it means sell, buy.
And because you have to transition through the fees of the actual underlying base contract, it means most of that is just not feasible.
So, yeah, kind of got a little technical there, but yeah.
Brad, what you were saying about having a contract on top that routes fees back to creators, I think that is something that they can certainly play with with the money they have.
I mean, they can hire some of the best devs out there to make some of the craziest fee structures, whatever they want to do, right?
And like you said, that's one of their only options right now.
If they can't market themselves, certainly it's a huge option.
But taking those fees and rerouting them is possible.
So that's something that I'm hoping for is if they can do that, it's going to attract a lot more creators.
It's going to attract, you know, people that are doing well to continue to deploy capital.
And, you know, it's just something that it needs to happen.
And I'm glad you brought that up because, yeah.
I don't know that it needs to happen, but it's an option.
Again, I don't think literally just reducing protocol fees, I think, would be enough for anything.
They don't need to sit here and try to do everything that they're trying to do with Stars Arena.
You know, they don't like literally just reduce the amount that they're taking off the table because it totally exits the ecosystem, right?
It's a leak in the boat, right?
Unless they're using that money to inject back into the system, whether it's through growth incentives or through marketing or through whatever, then it's a leak in the boat.
And like they just need to patch that hole, frankly, because whether it's because if you take it off the table and just go to zero on the protocol side, that means it stays in the trader's pocket.
Or they bump up the creator side and then reduce theirs, it goes in the creator's pocket.
Either way, those are two participants in the ecosystem.
They are not participants in the ecosystem.
So it's just pretty clear to me.
So anyways, can we shift?
Yeah, go for it.
Go for it.
Sorry.
Yeah, getting that liquidity sucked out of the market is just massive.
I mean, think about it.
Guys, Orly, Orly, Orly, Orly, Orly.
Orly, yo.
Can I run it off?
Let's let...
See?
See this power?
It's called the mute button.
Oh, yeah.
I just did it.
Everyone's being fucking wild.
I should use the market.
So the submitter wanted to talk.
Taking a breather.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The submitter wanted to talk about that.
And then I want us to talk about something else because we've been laboring on this point for the entire space.
Hey, thank you, Dragos.
Appreciate that.
Yeah, I just wanted to appreciate or kind of address both the frustrations of not having enough features and at the same time, like, all these amazing ideas.
I wanted to address them at a meta level.
As a developer, I just know how incredibly hard it is and how much background work there is probably going on to build a robust social network.
And at the same time, this is like a protocol.
And it's probably, it's honestly almost impossible for them to pull off all these amazing features in the next few months on their own.
The only real way I see them doing this is if they really open this up for other developers and other creators to build on top of this as well.
And right now, it's, I mean, I'd love to hear Brett's take as well, but there's so many good developers.
And I think a frustration is that it's not, the protocol is not really open.
There's all, the API is not really well documented.
And it's only if they open this up to developers and creators to build all these amazing ideas, these experiments, these interfaces, that these ideas are going to happen.
So, maybe we just need to, like, get together, petition the team, take these ideas to Racer, the FT team, and say, like, hey, there's so many developers ready to build on top of this.
You guys just need to make this more open for them to build.
That's just my question.
So, yeah, go for it, Brett, and then I'll chime in.
No, I agree with that.
I was actually just going to ask the question, because I know, Submitter, you work with T-Blocks, and it's either in their quest.
Is that your partner, or is that just you?
Again, I'll get them up with you.
Yeah, no.
So, my partner is here as well.
Cool.
Yeah, I'll get them up here, too, just so we can chat to you from the developer perspective.
But, yeah, I totally agree with you.
And, yeah, there's, like, no documentation.
And it was, frankly, pretty crude at the start.
It was totally open for everyone to scrape a shit ton of stuff from.
I think people are doing that.
And you have seen some people on the forefront that have dove into that and leveraged it to a degree.
But then, yeah, they make changes.
We don't understand it.
And I think money is the ultimate incentive.
So, whether it's a developer fund that they put up with their fees or, again, incentivizing growth in the ecosystem so that developers want to come here and build through the bullshit just because there's so much economic activity here.
Both of those two things would lead to do greater growth in the ecosystem.
I mean, that's why we're here, not why we're here, but that's why you see a lot of developers that did come to the ecosystem.
They saw growth.
They saw opportunity.
They saw design space.
So, they dove in.
And that's why they're here.
There's a lot of intriguing stuff that can be done.
But sometimes you need to continue to spur that.
So, building up on the point of the fees and if the fees were to be reduced and the fact that we want people to build stuff on top of this, two examples that I think are like one of the biggest pain points of Frentech is how you launch, right?
Like, presumably, they want to onboard people with large followings in the next few months or whenever.
And those are going to be botted like crazy, right?
And we have two entities which are building a solution for that, right?
There's Manifold with their pre-sales and there's CBB who just did their first pre-sale.
Like, literally, I did it while I was on the space.
And I think it's a really interesting discussion.
I'm curious on your takes as well.
The Manifold one is done via a proxy contract.
So, it's the kind of thing that Brett doesn't really like.
So, it wouldn't – I guess the drawbacks are the fact that you don't really get the FT functionality.
You get the key and you can, like, buy it and sell it.
So, you get, like, the monetary access.
Like, you get the profit if there is profit.
But not much else.
Whereas the CBB one I think is really interesting.
It has, like, a refund mechanism.
And on that one, I think the drawback is that the fees being this high, you get refunded something like between, I don't know, like 40% and, like, 75% of the price of the key depending on when you came in.
And for this particular example, I need to run the numbers, but it obviously varies on a ton of variables, right?
Because you're – they're basically launching – they're whitelisting beforehand.
They're launching the – they launched the account.
It's like their own meme account.
It's like a Vombatos kind of, like, clone.
But with bulls, not wombats.
So, they basically sniped.
Let's just assume they did, like, 150 whitelist spots.
They sniped – self-sniped 150 whitelist spots.
And whenever – if you're on the whitelist, you just buy their key and then they sell one key and they also refund you as much as they can.
And obviously, if the fees were lower, if they weren't 10%, if they were 5%, then that margin that I put right there of, like, you get between 45% and 70% back, whatever, which depends on when you actually buy the key.
Because, think about it, there's whitelisted users that can buy this, but there's also other people or other bots that can come in and push the price up.
And if they do that, then you're actually going to get less on a refund.
So, if they actually lower the fees, then this kind of solution, even though, again, it's not perfect, it would be much better in the sense that if you're whitelisted and it's a popular account, you will be in profit because you get refunded, like, a significant amount of what you paid for the key.
So, I think that's interesting with, like, two actual things that are being built on top of FT that are really, really needed, despite all the – and they're kind of workarounds and they're done despite all the limitations that the platform has.
Jeragos, thanks for bringing this up.
So, I participated in the CBB bull whitelistment.
Yeah, I mean, it was smooth, man.
Like, it was so smooth.
And the –
What was the user interface for it?
Did you guys just go to a page and click on a minute?
You literally buy the key.
You literally go on Frentech, you buy the key, and then as soon as I refreshed and went back, I had my ETH refunded, like, part of my ETH refunded in my wallet.
So, the smart contract handles everything behind the scenes.
Yeah, he did such a nice job with that.
And the instant refund is huge because I think there were some questions going into this, how that part would work, as well as his ability to do the automated, you know, sell one for every buy.
I mean, it seems like it's kind of gone off without a hitch.
And I haven't gone through and done, like, a full review or anything, but it seems that way.
So, of the options we've seen to date for high-profile launches, I mean, this seems like the best one out there.
And I think the way he's kind of handled the refunds, and it's a bit of, like, a sliding scale.
So, regardless of where you enter from a price standpoint, because Drago said, like, if you bought, you know, a few buys after me and paid a higher price, well, you're also getting a higher refund.
So, everyone's net cost is going to be, like, kind of roughly the same.
It's not going to be exactly the same.
I don't know.
I think it was a very nice launch to take a part of, and I hope we see more.
So, he's breaking down the refund into two parts, right?
I think that's what he said.
Like, if you hold for 48 hours, you get the rest of the refund or something like that.
I'm not exactly sure, but I paid, like, 2.2 ETH for mine, I think, and I got refunded, like, 1.2 ETH instantly.
And I think you get, if you hold it for 48 hours, so, like, if you don't dump in profit, I think you get the other part of the refund.
So, eventually, I think we end up paying, I don't know, like, a bit less.
But it's really interesting.
What I wanted to ask you, Tyler, would the drawback be if I, you're saying that, you know, someone buys one key and they sell one key.
Would the drawback be if a bot got in between that?
I mean, I don't even know if that's possible.
I feel like he's got some anti-bot prevention controls in place.
It doesn't seem like that has happened.
But we will see.
So, I think the, so, what's happening is anytime someone on the whitelist buys, it's net neutral for the key price.
Anytime someone else buys, it effectively pushes it up until the whitelisters are basically all done.
So, if you, he launched it at 1.54.
If no one else but the whitelisters bought, then it would remain at that 1.54 price the whole time, in theory.
Right, but also 150 people are getting hit with, you know, fees and those fees are just getting collected.
But it's awesome that they're getting, you know, rerouted and refunded.
And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about, Brad, with the, you know, with their fees.
You know, with Frentak fees, if there was that smart contract that reroutes, you know, I think that would be very beneficial, you know, injecting additional capital right back into the market.
Well, they get rerouted most of the fees because the 5% that is sent to the creator, I think, also comes back.
So, they only lose the 5%.
No, I'm talking in the CBB example.
Like, they actually reroute the creator part as well.
So, the only part that gets lost is the 5% that goes to Frentak.
So, it's not actually that much.
And plus, everyone who buys, if you think about it, if it has so much demand, at a practical level, they're all in profit.
Like, you're instantly, the key is like trading at 2.2 ETH now or something.
And I'm pretty sure our prices weigh like maybe half that or something.
So, it's basically like instant profit in this particular case.
But if you were to launch popular accounts like this, you would assume that would be the case.
Because that would be the main use case for it, right?
Like, you're launching popular accounts that you know will have demand.
And just to understand, you got in through holding CBB's key.
Yeah, correct.
So, everyone who held the CBB key could have a spot on the whitelist.
You would give your Frentak address on.
They would put you on the whitelist.
And then when the account launches, whenever you buy with your address, the smart contract detects it and just refunds you.
I think it's really clever.
I really like it.
And as I said, like if they were to decrease the fees, then what you lose on the fees would be even less.
And it would come closer to like, okay, you don't get the exact same price, but it's going to be like very similar.
Obviously, a more elegant solution would be if you actually managed to do like whitelist and shit from the beginning at whatever price you wanted, sir.
But it's not the case because the contract wouldn't allow it.
So, with all the limitations put in place, I think this is pretty cool.
Yeah, I share a similar perspective.
Very impressed, I think.
You know, right now it's like it's only for CBB holders, right?
But let's say, you know, if he's able to partner up with a celebrity or some mainstream person, it could be their whitelist, right?
The celebrity, you know, aside.
So, someone has to manage it, but like say their fans, right, they want access to.
I think it's a real solution and the user experience is the best we can have at the moment.
Yeah, I'm still trying to break it down because you guys, like if you guys actually just bought it directly through the app, I'm looking at the contract now just to see like the sequence of events.
Because, yeah, I thought maybe initially they found a way to sign up in Frientech with a contract as the actual thing, but it's not.
It's still just an embedded wallet, same with everything else.
And then that wallet is calling to the contract after it calls to the actual Frientech contract.
So, yeah, I'm not talking about this.
It's kind of cool.
That's what I was trying to tell you the last time we talked about this.
Well, I didn't actually know the details, but it would all happen in app.
Right now, it's like a CBB only thing, right?
But like if he launches a front end that allows anyone to use it, then I feel like that's a huge rebellion for whoever is trying to come into the system.
Yeah, Levi, I think you're spot on.
And the way that I understand he built the whitelist, he actually built the list manually, right?
Because we all had to fill out a Google form in his room and paste our wallets in there.
So he didn't automatically download like his key holders' wallets and put them on this whitelist.
He did it manually.
Why that's important is, you know, if there is a front-facing UI for the public or for a select group, then, I mean, you could manually add wallets in any method you want, right?
It doesn't necessarily have to be CBB key holders.
It could be any other kind of style of whitelist curation that you want.
So it's pretty interesting.
Yeah, I think it's great.
And like it's super bullish that the community is coming up with so many ways to like circumvent the FT limitations.
But it just also goes to show that like with things such a tight construct, it's hard to provide a really good like user experience, right?
Like outside of the app.
So that's just one thing to – I don't know how to solve it, but we have to get better.
Can we go step back and talk about CBB specifically?
Because this is just me being – like I knew him as the blur farmer coming in.
And I, you know, not knowing him, you'd think he'd just be a pure value extractor, right?
And he would just be a mercenary coming in for stuff.
But he's actually been a pretty big ecosystem contributor.
He chats a lot.
Like he's got the whole cartel and stuff.
He's kind of keeping everything fun.
So I guess this is just me saying that I'm pleasantly surprised so far with how CBB has behaved in the ecosystem as someone who is just –
and like he may be farming his ass off right now.
He's making a lot of points, whatever, having a good time.
But he's also just been a pretty good ecosystem participant thus far.
And that's pretty cool.
Yeah, and I think –
I just want to add to that.
You know, he was an OG Omi too.
All those guys were.
So they were like part of the team at OM and then also part of the Bong Bears, which is his PFP, which was the first like NFT fork off of OM that had a rebasing 3-3 methodology.
So they know it like the back of their hand.
They fucking lived and breathed this.
You know, I've worked with all of them.
And they're all great people and they know what the fuck they're doing and that's why it's so smooth.
And, you know, what people are probably nervous about is, you know, coming up to the airdrop, is he going to unwrap?
Because if he unwraps, everyone gets fucking unwrapped.
And that is going to be a massive cascade.
However, I believe he knows that with the current creator fees of 10% and the flywheel that he's created with his cartel, they're going to keep it going.
It's going to –
For what it's worth, like we're in chats with him.
He's just like, yeah, I've marked all my ETH to zero.
He's like, I'm here for the points.
Yeah.
He's super bullish on the points as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaking of – so we talked about the great online.
And we talked about you, Levi.
What are you – what are your – I have it.
Levi, just –
Please don't be a main character.
Go ahead.
Please don't be a main character.
Well, I think the best way – it's like this, right?
So right now, the duplicate keys, like obviously I have a lot of duplicates.
And the team, like they're doing the nerf thing, right?
So I have to see how my points go.
Like if I keep getting top points, like I have no problem keeping all of my duplicate keys.
Because if points keep getting cut for like nerfed, then like it's not earning me anything, right?
So – but like I would never –
Do you suspect it's from duplicates that would be doing that?
Oh, you mean like decreasing points?
Yeah, like because you're talking about like your points getting nerfed.
Do you think that's the leading cause right now for the reduced PPE?
Well, I haven't done anything.
So like so far, I've just essentially been holding.
But I think because other people has been optimizing a lot, right?
So you see a lot of other people now spreading out their portfolio and reducing concentrated holdings.
And because of that, like my points gets diluted a little bit.
Plus, last week, they had a pretty disappointing points drop, right?
They only dropped the 3.2 million versus the 4.
So I don't know – I think there's a lot of confusion with like what the team is planning to do, right?
And I think we are in this stagnant slump period and deservingly so.
But like I think individuals like CBB or like Kat early on where they're just super bullish about the points,
I think that is – that's the exact type of players we need in the ecosystem.
And like I'm like that, right?
But we need more people who are just so bullish and willing to deploy a large amount of capital and commit long term.
And I think that's how we get the wealth effect to start coming back again.
And on top of that, if the team can lower fees or redirect them somehow, then that will be insanely bullish.
So I know early on you were talking to CL about maybe doing some OTCs on your points so that you can reinvest in the ecosystem.
Are you still considering that or are you – have you like just – yeah, what's your current position?
Yeah.
I haven't talked to him that much because there's like – like you want to sign a contract and it's like tied up to my account and there's like other issues, right?
It's not like I can give him the points today and he can hand me the cash.
So no, we haven't been like finalizing that at all.
But as far as strategy goes, is that still something that – because I know initially you wanted to double down on ETH and the ecosystem, I guess.
And this is just me speculating.
I assume, okay, you had mentioned building your moat.
So in my mind, that's okay.
Continue to deploy early and often on accounts and bank on their growth.
The problem, the problem, Brad, is like I don't know who to deploy it on, right?
It's like you're not seeing –
That was going to be my next question.
Like you're not seeing – before, like I knew exactly who to deploy it on.
Neither one of you guys own me.
It's like people who buy me, right?
People who buy me early on and I buy them, they tend to do really well because buying me, it signifies that they're serious about the ecosystem and they're willing to invest capital, right?
But being in early, you also see your ETH growth.
But right now, it's kind of like we're in a situation where, okay, you're no longer looking to be an ETH profit.
So you're likely to take a cut on your ETH and earn the points.
But the problem is the points is highly variable and it's coming in six months, four months, right?
And you can't really put a precise calculation on that.
So I think that's tough.
And like it's not only me, like I'm talking with a lot of whales and like they're in the exact same situation.
Like CryptoWilliams said like he has 100 ETH left to deploy that he wanted to deploy onto Frontech.
But like there's literally – we're so afraid, you know, we don't know who to buy.
There's a limitation to how many people I can personally like do due diligence on, right?
Because I only have so much time.
I only have so much attention span.
And that's when like 0x5F, like he's saying a reputation, a Trustpilot score, right?
If we have that, I think that's going to help with deploying tremendously too because you don't have to go through the manual process of vetting each person, each account, which takes forever.
Yeah, we need EAS for that.
That would be cool.
Yeah.
Anybody knows what that is.
What he's building right now.
Attestation service.
That would be cool.
Yeah.
Making attestations about people would be crazy.
That would be so cool.
How does that work?
So basically, it's a public good Ethereum attestation service.
You can look it up on Twitter.
And basically, it allows for everybody to attest everything to everyone, like whatever they want.
Like, for example, on Dragos, I could attest that he has the best Frontech spaces, right?
And then I could attest to him that he's a DGEN and he's been very active on Frontech, et cetera, right?
All these things.
And then somebody else could attest something else to you and you could attest something to me.
And it's basically a decentralized reputation slash identity system.
And you can...
It's like a Yelp.
It's like a Yelp.
But you have to sign...
You basically sign with your wallet, right?
Like, that's how it works.
Yeah, it's an option.
It's just a signature, yeah.
So I would have to export my private key.
Or you can maybe use like a delegate wallet.
No, no, no.
You just sign.
You just sign.
Still, yes, you would have to.
I would still have to.
Because they would have to...
Yeah.
But it's based on the principle that everything in the world is built upon protocols, right?
A protocol is shaking someone's hand.
A protocol...
Like, everything in the world is built on top of that.
And it's all based on a system of attestations, which is just one person signing off on the other person's thing.
So on EAS, you can build up these schemas.
The schemas are just like a rule set for a given thing.
So there's like one for birthdays, right?
So I can attest that this...
I can use the birthday schema and sign that today is Drago's birthday.
And then I'm attesting to that.
And then 20 other people, right?
Right.
And aggregate, it becomes something.
Yeah, exactly.
And the aggregate is what actually makes up the...
Let's say the identity, if you want to quote it like that, right?
And how other people view these attestations, like, and value these attestations.
So I've already thought about this.
My concern was, one, because of the Drago's thing, talking about the PK shit.
But two, I mean, it's basically just buying someone's keys.
Like, that is a form of on-chain attestation, right?
That's a little bit of...
It's capital deployment to show that, like, hey, I'm attesting to this person, having this thing.
Ish, right?
Because there's a capital barrier.
I understand that.
The other thing is...
So what you're trying to get from what you're talking about now is the social layer of attestations, right?
You're trying to have a...
You can literally build a print-tech social graph, right?
Right.
I know.
But I'm saying whenever...
If you know that's what you're trying to go for, putting it on the chain is not necessarily a requirement and actually, I think, hinders what you're trying to do, right?
Because we already have a social graph with Twitter and attestations.
We just have no way to overlay that and communicate that.
So you have social attestations and you have capital attestations with the key buying.
So I think you can even try to remove the EAS entirely and just do it through a crypto-native...
Or not crypto-native way, but a friend-tech-native thing, which is Twitter authentication.
Then you again have a siloed identity layer, right?
Like the goal for EAS, and just like I don't want to make this about EAS, is like to unify identity, right?
You have all these identity, let's say, islands from BrightID, PolygonID, Gitcoin Passport.
Then you have Lens.
Then you have your Twitter, Instagram, whatever.
And this can all be unified with the Ethereum attestation service.
I can heavily encourage just everybody to look at it.
It's going to be everywhere soon.
It's a public good.
And Gitcoin Passport, for example, it's the base layer.
It's basically like layer zero for identity.
The challenge with the previous identity was that everybody has started building on the app layer, right?
And you basically completely forgot.
It's basically built off at first without Ethereum, right?
And so, yeah.
I think Ethereum attestations could get Frantic to another level.
And it's probably very easy to integrate.
I'm not a builder, but from what I've seen, you have the schema registry.
And you basically have two smart contracts you just have to work with.
And it's pretty simple.
And if we could get that on top of, like, in combination with Frentech, I think that could.
So, yeah.
What I was trying to go to is I've already gone down this thought path.
And, you know, maybe you have a different vision than what I ultimately thought of.
I've gone down this path with EAS, already thought about it.
And I think what you're ultimately trying to solve, EAS, is not the best solve for it.
Like, that's all I'm saying.
Brad, I mean, I'll jump in.
I've got some concerns about this in concept.
And it seems there's a lot of folks on stage who are pretty into it or at least exploring it.
I feel like the reality of how the system will work, at least the one that I've heard OX5 talk about,
it feels like, to me, the people who have invested the most ETH in the protocol will carry the most...
Yeah, I think he's overdoing it.
...will carry the most weight.
Yeah, I agree with you.
And I guess, like, in a vacuum, why are the people who put the most ETH in the app also the best ones to judge social character?
And you could say they got the most to lose, but...
Yeah, right now he's got it way too high weighted.
Hold on, let Tyler finish his talk.
I mean, I was kind of getting to the end there.
But it's like, who watches the Watchmen is where I keep coming back to this.
Like, who's going to say, approve whose voice carries the most weight in this new social credit system?
And there's a lot of, you know, downside risks, right?
So for folks who necessarily don't get into the circle of trust.
So I don't know.
There's a lot to think about here.
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
And my counter is that...
Well, I'm not even going to counter because I totally agree with you.
My counter proposition is to...
Because anytime you're dealing with weightings, right?
Because I had the same issue whenever I created that dashboard, the quality score and whatever, whatever.
Anytime you have to give weight to anything means that someone has to make a decision.
And it becomes that watch the Watchmen thing that you're talking about.
Which is why I think it needs to be simplified heavily to reduce from all that shit.
Because if you boil it down to what he's ultimately trying to do, right?
Is you want to try to build up effectively what we already did with the keys, right?
The keys is a capital allocation, a capital signal, whatever, on-chain signal of who you vouch for to a degree, right?
But obviously, the barrier there is capital.
So the people with the most capital have the most weight that they can do whatever.
It goes up and down the scale.
So I think what they're trying to do or what ultimately is trying to be done with this social credit thing or a good execution of it would be to try to rebuild a similar social attestation thing, kind of what Orly's talking about.
But I think you should do it on the same graph that's already being used with Frontech natively, which is Twitter.
So if you could, again, if you view the key relationships through capital deployment, those are the signals there.
Then you do the exact same thing with the Twitter profiles where you can go to the platform and you can say, I'm just going to vouch for people.
There's no capital allocation to it.
It's just I can sit here and create the same node infrastructure, those node clusters with people that I vouch for.
I give a social signal for that I think are good players in the ecosystem.
It doesn't have to be the same keys that you own.
It doesn't have to be keys that you don't have to be whatever, right?
Just people that you're willing to vouch for.
And then you have an ability to overlay those two things, the capital signals and the social signals on top of each other.
And then that can give you strength of key or say, hey, this person is vouched for capitally by or with capital by five people in my node network.
And it's vouched for socially by 10 people in my network.
And then those two things together could do it.
And it has no capital allocation on the secondary one and it's Twitter native.
But isn't it then just like a siloed solution again?
Like what we have over and over and over already?
How is it a siloed solution?
Like, could you use this for like, like, for example, I want like digital identity, which like social graphs are really good for, right?
Because you have a lot of people attesting to other people that they're credibly, like they're credible or not.
And I want to do it for like a borrowing and lending platform or whatever.
Do I like, then I have to integrate the friend tech social graph and then I have to integrate the Bitcoin passport social graph and I have to integrate the right ID social path because I don't want to rely on a single one, right?
And I have to integrate them all independent of each other instead of just plugging them in, like, which would be possible with EAS.
So, like, like, like the thing, what I think about is identity, like, when you were born, right?
Who gave you identity, right?
The first thing is like your parents attested to you, to your name, right?
And then, like, when you went to the school, you were tested your grades and like all that stuff.
Then the children in your school, like, they attested to you if they like you or not or what you were good to or not.
And then it went on in university, you got your grades.
The government attested to your driver's license and your university degree, et cetera.
And it just makes, well, I'm making this about EAS again, but, like, it just makes so much sense to have that, especially in, like, in friend tech and then being able to use it, like, wherever we want and then make it, make it, like, for example, I could attest to Dragos, like, I don't know, or Brad being, like, an expert on toast or something like that, whatever, right?
And then I love toast.
I want to buy Brad's key because I love toast and I like talking about toast.
I don't know, right?
Like, it allows for much more specific and search categories and patterns and whatever, right?
And integrations as well.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of good in it.
But, Tyler, you hit it right on the fucking head, man.
It can't be, I mean, it just can't be weighted by capital.
Yes, it shouldn't be weighted by capital.
I 100% agree.
It just can't.
You know, it's just, it's not the right way.
You know, there's so many, otherwise we will never grow.
You know, there's so many people that want to be in front tech.
They want to join front tech and they're just afraid because they think it's a whales game.
And if we come out with this, you know, reputation layer, if you will, and, you know, the people with the most capital have the most weight behind what they're saying, who's going to come out at the top and who's going to be the ones, you know, that are reaping the benefits?
It's going to be the same.
You know, you know, then, Father, you're completely right.
I agree with you.
But I do think that if you want to play with the big leagues, you have to be willing to do it and you have to invest.
I've learned that, you know.
So, you know, you can be in front tech and grow your account.
But if you want to play the big leagues, you have to go full in, you know.
Oh, no, I completely agree with that.
But, you know, I think your time and your value that you're adding and that you're creating for the, you know, for the flywheel, it just can't be a part of the reputation layer in terms of, you know, the weight, like weighting somebody's word based on how much capital they deployed.
100% but, like, it will, it will, like, if you have enough attestations and I can say Dragos is legit and Levi is legit and Brad and everybody in the space, right, we all attest to each other and then other people that listen attest to us that we're legit and what we're talking actually makes sense.
Like, it will reflect in our key price.
You know, you know what's the thing is that there's a lot of bad players and bad actors that also have a lot of money and can deploy a lot of ETH and they aren't trustworthy, you know.
So, I agree with that because there's a lot of people that may have a lot of ETH and I have deployed a lot of ETH but they aren't good actors, you know.
Yeah, like, for example, what happened with Roots, right?
Like, everybody attested to him that he's probably a smart guy, he's cool, he's legit and then he rugged everybody, right?
So, then you just, everybody attested him he's a rugged and, like, everybody sees it on-chain but, like, it's literally on-chain reputation over, like, protocol, like, you see it everywhere, right?
On his wallet, right?
Like, he would say, hey, he rugged Frentech or Sifu rugged, like, whatever and we know it and we can attest to this.
And it's basically, like, kind of like in a security upgrade or, like, however you want to call it, a reputation, like, the source, like, manifesting the social layer that's, like, the layer zero as Bankless would call it.
Yeah, but the thing is that guy can go and make another account and make another deployment and schedule it.
Well, then ZacXPG could maybe find it.
Yeah, but the thing is, the thing is, these are tied, these are tied to Twitter.
So, if you have a somewhat known, if you have a somewhat known Twitter account, then it will impact you.
Yeah, the time component is the great equalizer.
Agreed, agreed there.
The time component, no doubt.
But, I mean, people are aping just random shit because, you know, people are making fake Twitter accounts and they're putting 100 ETH in their account.
And then they have low reputation.
It's just getting liquidity sucked out of the entire ecosystem.
And that is just bad.
What do you mean by that?
Yeah, but speculators are going to speculate.
I mean, you're never going to stop that.
People who are willing to accept the risk of going after a fresh account that hasn't built up a reputation in any capacity because there's ETH sitting in a wallet.
I mean, that's someone that's willing to do that.
That money is probably going to leave anyways.
Right, right.
That's what I'm saying.
And that's why I was saying, you know, time is one of the biggest factors, in my opinion.
I think you hit that right, Brad.
So, I'm curious if anybody here in the audience has had any dreams lately?
Oh, did you want to share with us, Hero?
Oh, I actually don't really have anything.
You don't have any dreams lately?
I just said yes because I was trying to be funny.
Oh, you didn't know I was talking about you?
No, but this app is laggy as fuck.
Like, you can't even do anything.
Like, I can't even.
Except buy CBV Bull.
That's all you can do.
Yeah, at least with CBV Bull, you can just buy him right from the contract because he has the ticker symbol, right?
But, yeah, I don't know.
Here's what I kind of am hoping for.
And I'm pretty sure that Limpelman, I just don't know when, is a referral fee system.
Just how cool would it be to actually get some commission on these things?
And then I know Bread's talked about it a lot, but they need to really reduce the fees and up the creator kind of commissions because that will probably reignite people wanting to use the platform more if they reduce fees and then increase the, I guess, earnings or fees earned that people can get.
So hopefully they do that.
And then other than that, I think I'm dreaming of a big UI update this week.
And I don't know if it's today or what, but hopefully it's a good UI update if it is.
So you are dreaming, okay.
Yeah, I had a dream that you could, like, that's all I'm going to say.
I have a dream.
And there's a lot of shit that's busted right now on the UI, but I have a feeling like all the puzzle pieces will go back together so things don't just take three clicks to get to the same thing that it used to take one click to get to.
So, but with that being said, to be, I mean, kind of bearish on and not just bulls up only, hopefully it's enough to make people want to actually use the app and not just be bored.
I think lag is lag is pretty bullish, so I'm pretty happy.
Other than I can't use shit.
Maybe it's a bit out there, you know, woo-woo.
But we all got to believe in something.
I feel like the spot we're in today is kind of similar to a lot of successful GameFi projects in which, in the beginning, people were using the app for the intended purposes and it's fun.
And then as asset prices rise, the capital incentive takes over and the emphasis on using the app and the emphasis on content and the emphasis on how fun this app actually is gets cut, right?
And then people gradually become more emphasized and more hooked on the capital aspect of this.
But, like, I think that's kind of bearish in a sense because now you have farmers crowding out the intellectual crowd, you know, who I think, who I thought in the early days, like, was incredible.
Like, you're having incredible discussions on topics and we just see less of that today.
I agree with that.
And I think that's, and, like, also it's, like, these creators, these intellectual, you know, they might not be dropping, like, 10, 20K on Frontech.
And, like, normally, like, if this is a social app, like, you're not expecting everyone to drop, like, 10, 20K on this, right?
But those people, like, no matter how good their discussion is, no matter how much value they're providing, there's this natural ceiling, right?
People aren't willing to pay above a certain price if there's no financial benefit.
And I think these people get kind of discouraged, right?
Because they're, like, it doesn't, it seems like it doesn't matter how hard I try to work.
It's, like, I'm not getting the support.
And I think that aspect also has to be figured out.
And people, there needs to be a return to content and using the app and having fun with the app other than, you know, farming or trying to make money, right?
You know, Levi, I think there's different aspects that you can onboard this app.
You can, for example, in my part, I'm having fun as hell, you know?
You know, I'm playing a game here, and for me, it's basically try to, obviously, win some it, right?
But I'm a filmmaker, I'm a creator, I do lots of stuff, and I'm planning on building here, right?
So it depends on what you want to do here, but if, this is, like, a suggestion, right?
If you're planning on building, if you want to really bring value as an artist, for example, right, or as a creator or as an intellectual, as you said,
I think it's a good thing right now to start building up your portfolio, start building up and raising your value, your key price by doing this that we're doing, you know,
putting a bit of it in, making the context, this 3-3 is this context, so you show yourself as valuable as you should be, right?
Because if your key is too cheap, and you've been a long time in the game, and it's this cheap, and it keeps going,
and you're putting value in every day and every day and every day, people are going to say, okay, what, I'm not going to get any value in this,
I'm not going to get any ETH in this, any money in this, but if you're putting money in at least a bit, people see that, people can see that,
and then they can onboard the game and they can join you.
That's how I felt it, you know?
You can climb the ladder, you know, it's, like you mentioned earlier, you know, you put a little ETH in and, you know,
you vibe with your crowd, you know, your size, and then, you know, maybe you get networked in with somebody who's a little bit larger,
you buy their key, and, you know, 10 people from their room buy your key because they see you talking in that room and you're undervalued,
and they see, you know, that intellect coming through in other rooms,
and that's really what people need to focus on when they start because otherwise,
they're just going to be focusing on, they're talking to themselves, and they're going to be spinning in circles,
they're thinking they're grinding hard, but they're just, they are, it's just, they're grinding the wrong way.
It doesn't have to be a deposit $10,000 to $20,000, you know, game just to have fun and to do well.
You know, you can grow with anything as long as you're out there, you're grinding, you have intellect, you have great takes,
people enjoy talking to you, you know, the vibes are good, people will buy your heat.
People, you know, everyone is looking for those, you know, that next, you know, 0.05 or 0.1 that's going to run up to 1 plus ETH, right?
You know, we're always looking for that.
And the best way to help these people and to help the flywheel is to support those smaller accounts
and continue to spotlight them as much as you can.
Yeah.
Otherwise, like you said, it's just people are going to get discouraged, they're going to leave the app,
and it's just, the flywheel won't continue.
I understand what Levi was saying, because I saw the same, I realized the same thing.
And you can see it in like, for example, Rhino, Ansem even, there's loads of accounts that were super early,
and I was really excited to just be in their room and like get their thoughts.
That was what attracted me to Frantic in the first place.
And I still am, but the problem is, I have so many keys, and this goes into the app functionality as well.
I have so many keys, it's hard to like, to check their chats all the time, and I get stuff lost all the time.
So if they, I think, yes, the fees are part of it, and the fees going down would be a good thing.
But I also think like the app functionality, if the app could just work faster and like be a bit more organized,
then for me personally, it would regain some of its magic that I had at the beginning,
because I could actually stay on top of all these chats and like actually talk to those people.
Because right now, it's so hectic that I'm just, at some point, I just give up.
Like I want to catch up.
I really want to catch up with so many rooms.
Like I have like 20 or 25 rooms watch listed, and I would love to basically read all of them every day, right?
Like when I wake up in the morning, and when I get to my laptop, and I check all my messages on Telegram,
I want to go on Frantic and check all the messages from those rooms.
But it's just I go through like two or three or four rooms right now, and then I just give up because it's too annoying.
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
I really think they need like a best friend section, or even like a section like,
hey, these people are my meme section, like I want to engage with them.
I'll talk about memes here or a section like, hey, this is my cooking check section.
Hey, this is my creator section and so on.
I think that would be really good.
But I want to answer the question about deploying ETH into the platform in order to actually bring value to your key.
I don't think that's 100% the case.
Yes, of course, that is like a quick way to juice your key price.
But let me just give you an example.
Look at Kobe.
Kobe's key is trading above two ETH.
Why?
Well, it's not because he's just throwing ETH at the platform.
It's just because he's brought a lot of value to the space.
And people want to give back to him.
And they do that by buying the key.
Yeah, bro, but you cannot compare Kobe to like,
if you're a random person going on FT,
Kobe is literally like, probably the most, the person who I want to talk to the most.
You can't.
I get it.
I mean, yeah, he is a legend.
Well, let's give an example then of Anson.
I mean, he has 100,000.
I mean, yeah.
He has 100,000 followers on Twitter, man.
But that's the point I'm trying to make.
Like, in the future, there are going to be people that, like, here now,
they're going to be, oh, man.
Yeah, that's Kobe.
I mean, that's a horrible example.
There's going to be people like that in the future.
Like, there was a time where there wasn't such thing as a Kobe.
I mean, it's just like.
You mean there's more Kobe's coming and you want to grab a Kobe?
Yes, that's what I mean.
And those future Kobe's that are coming around.
It's funny how it's like Kobe Bryant.
The future Kobe's that are coming around are going to be the ones
that are able to get that higher ETH price
without having to deploy more capital.
Are we talking about the EBAO key?
Oh, my God.
What's his key price right now?
Let's keep that name out of this.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
What's his?
It's not that bad, actually.
Wait.
No, what?
Oh, my God.
Okay, it's bad.
It's bad.
How many self keys does he have?
He doesn't have self.
I don't think he has self keys.
Interesting.
But it's 0.42 ETH right now, which is pretty bad.
I think he was up to like two ETH a week or two ago.
A week or two ago?
Wait, let me look at the chart.
Yeah, talk to us, Chagas.
What was it?
I'm pretty sure.
What did you buy him at?
Bro, I bought him at like 1.2 or something, and then I sold him at like 0.7, I think.
I'm not exactly sure.
Wait, let me use FriendFriend.
I'll tell you immediately.
How do I do that?
I mean, I think everyone's points here are pretty much true, right?
I mean, like, yeah, there's going to be people that grow on the actual platform.
Yeah, capital is an easy way to like hyper juice your growth.
Not absolutely required, but that's also like capital deployment is also seen as something
that is like a commitment to the ecosystem too, which is what gives other big dudes who
don't really give a shit about price, the ability or confidence to buy into their stuff,
which juices their price even more.
So, like, they're all various components of this stuff, but you know, for example, I've
been trying to do this organically.
When I jumped in, I tried to do it that way, not with the 3-3 stuff because I didn't know
absolutely anything about this, and it's been hard, you know?
I see and I know there's a bunch of holders, a couple of holders that has the key, that
it's in the room because they like what I do and what I'm putting in the table, right?
But it's difficult to grow your account if you don't put money in.
So, yeah, Brad, that, I don't know, that's the game for me.
Yeah, I think we just have to realize that everything has a value, right?
And people deploying capital has value to other people because, like, your key price is just
reflective of the layers of whatever it is the fuck you're doing that add up to what your
cumulative value is, right?
So, me, I've deployed a lot of capital here.
So, I have whatever, 60% is because of the capital I've deployed, 10% is because the tool
I'm building, another 10% is because of whatever, and all of that cumulatively has added up to
my current price.
So, capital deployment has value in the ecosystem.
You can't deny that.
Contributing meaningfully in conversations has a value to the ecosystem.
You can't deny that.
What portions of each of those things add up to your total key value is kind of the big
mystery that we don't really know, and it's all about who you talk to and, yeah, whatever.
Yeah, I find it very interesting where, like, I'll bring up an example of Mando.
So, Mando was an early defender of frantek, and he just does his own thing.
He talks about his trades, what he's levering up, what he thinks about macro and everything
like that, providing value to his channel, and then at one point, he blind-3-3'd everybody,
and then all, like, the kind of, you know, gathered momentum and spent a lot of ETH, and
then slowly but surely, he grinded down with all the defectors, and then he got sick with
COVID, and then he kind of went silent.
Now, he's back to his normal self.
So, he's a very interesting, like, textbook example of somebody, in my opinion, you know,
like a creator kind of using frantek correctly.
And I don't think he, I don't know if he's going to apply more ETH or whatnot, but I think
he's providing value, like, every day.
But also, another thing about, I was just going to jump in, about the social credit score.
I think, I think, I think that's happening right now in people's heads.
Like, for example, for me, you know, people do approach me about, oh, who should I, you
know, link up with or whatnot.
And I'm sure, you know, Bread and Dragos and all the big, big players here probably have
that every single day, that you are, in a way, a validation node to your ecosystem, that
I do feel like I'm slightly responsible.
And, you know, I try to, you know, basically, you know, provide advice where I can, you know,
based off of the prior actions of certain accounts and whatnot.
So, I think that's happening today.
And also, I think I'm rather going old school with everything.
Like, for example, you know, linking up, once you get to a certain key price, you know,
I'm sure, you know, the 1 ETH and 2 ETH are different, different stratosphere.
But, but for me, once I've reached a certain level, now, now I'm kind of going old school
with it, where I'm actually asking for references.
We're talking on DMs and whatnot.
So, there's a lot of that going on and a lot of, like, social capital moving around.
And, and basically, I, I pay attention when certain accounts recommend certain other accounts
versus others.
So, yeah, pretty, pretty interesting things.
And I would definitely, you know, I wish more creators come in.
And, you know, I think there's definitely a use case for, for them to provide value.
And they don't necessarily have to do 3-3, but it certainly helps.
Yeah, and that's happening at all levels.
So, every, like, all the way up the ladder, we've been conversing with you.
You find someone that you trust, right?
And then before you make a purchase of, usually it's above a certain threshold.
Like, okay, is this guy trusted?
Like, do you guys have experience with him?
You've been in this room.
And the problem is all that stuff is really disparate, right?
So, I have to have either access to a room of someone I trust that also shares that key.
Or I have to, like, go into a Telegram chat or, you know, one of these 50 million friends,
or not friends, like, Twitter chats, whatever.
It's just all over the fucking place.
And if there's a way where we can kind of aggregate that stuff and simplify it,
which is why I was talking about, like, just like the, it goes back to kind of the attestation
that we're always talking about, whether you think it actually you should use the service
or you should have a social graph attestation through the Twitter stuff that I'm talking about.
So, it's the same thing.
And have that in a centralized place so that people can go to it and, you know,
be able to infer that stuff without having to go through a thousand different chats,
a thousand different whatevers, and do some cloak and dagger shit.
I think it would be really useful without capital allocation.
Because that's ultimately what we're seeking.
It's just social signal from all of our friends that we have trusted, whatever,
and they make a decision based on that.
But, you know, there's the value to our key, you know, because, for example,
there's important people in my room, and if you want to get in touch with them,
you can go in my room and talk to them, you know,
instead of buying their key and going there and talking to them, you know.
So, there's the value.
Yeah, the network you've created, for sure.
Yeah, network effect is, it's real and it's big.
And it's a way that people can continue to climb the ladder and continue to, you know,
grow their platform that they're looking to grow.
And, you know, it's about finding those ways.
You know, you got to zig when other people zag, you know.
You got to, when everyone's blind three-threeing,
you got to go out and find a different way that works.
And, like you said, you know, having people that are in your room that are, you know,
high reputation, if you will, you know, level people that have been in this space for a long time
that people want to talk to, and your key is 0.5, and their key is 3E.
Why not buy your 0.5 key if you're willing to, you know, assist with those conversations
and, you know, introduce people, you know, from your network to this person that,
this specific person that's looking to, you know, grow and find these types of people.
Exactly.
For example, I've got to be cool.
It's going to take some capital allocation, no matter what.
But at the end of the day, you really can control your destiny, and you can grow,
and you can make, you know, you can grow your portfolio value,
you can rotate through, and, you know, find where you want to be.
And at the end of the day, like, Coffee, you mentioned it as well,
and I posted the tweet up here because, you know, you talked about it also.
So, you know, every single action that we make is, you know, causing a reaction in this space.
So, like, you really need to keep your, you know, side of the street clean
because at the end of the day, people are vouching for you.
And if you want them to continue vouching for you, you want them to stay sticky in your room,
you want to, you know, keep that momentum going, you know,
you've got to think about every single decision you make, everything you talk about,
every key you buy, every sell, everything, because it affects everyone.
And it's just something to think about in the back of, you know, everyone's head,
especially on these slow, you know, these slow days when people are just, you know,
today we can't even get on Frentech, so we're on here chatting, and it's fantastic.
You know, there's just a ton of great takes that we're, you know, talking about today.
But, you know, at the end of the day, like, it's up to you and, you know,
what you decide, how you want to grow, and how you, even if you don't want to grow,
you know, where you want to be in this, you know, social platform,
and how you want to be known, and what your reputation is to other people.
It's just massive.
Yo, Hiro, Hiro, did you want to say something? Because I saw you were unmuted.
I was just going to say that I'm kind of retarded, and I just buy literally everybody.
And I don't do any research to whether I buy them, that's a good buy or not.
Like, I have all these heart and moon bots that are, I swear that's what my Frentech was lagging,
because there's literally 100 plus of them, and they just talk to themselves all day long.
I saw those. What are they? The heart, moon, I saw millions of them.
I mean, I think they might have a good strat.
Deploy tons of bots that just chat back and forth, and for a low .001 ETH investment, they get some money.
Oh, I think it's the web of the...
That guy that created the bots.
Yeah, there's been, like, basically 40,000 bots, like, accounts created in the past 24 hours.
And, like, they keep getting created, and they earn...
You earn, at a minimum, like, one point per week just by doing nothing.
So, even if you just have, like, 40,000 accounts, you get, like, 40,000 points or something.
It's going to be a pain to, like, extract them out of it, but I guess it's, like, automated and stuff.
But, yeah, guys, we've been at the two-hour mark, so we usually try to leave people wanting a bit more.
So, I think we're going to wrap it up.
But before we wrap it up, we shared a tweet above with our space on Friday.
We go live usually at 6 p.m. Eastern time.
The points drop happens a bit, like, maybe, like, 40 minutes to an hour into the space.
So, yeah, hit the reminder for that space above.
Brett is hosting it because he can stay up longer since I'm in Europe, and it's at night here.
So, yeah, hit a reminder on that, and I think we're going to wrap it up here for now.
And we'll see you guys on Friday.
But I...
Thanks, dudes.
I need to play this for Hero.
My heart's some cock, and he just said,
What? What is cock?
And I said, Coca-Cola.
All right.
I'm going to rug this.
See you guys.
Later, guys.
Later, guys.
Later, guys.
Great chatting.
