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Frictionless Web3 Experiences, by NFT LA Live
Recorded: Dec. 9, 2022 Duration: 1:11:10Space Recording
Full Transcription
I'm gonna do just what I'm looking at, I've got no turning back.
People tell me so much.
I'm screaming out for the dead.
I'm screaming out for the dead.
I'm screaming out for the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
For the dead.
All right.
Welcome, everyone, to another episode, another session of Tour Spaces by NFTLA.
Along me, I have the pleasure of sharing the stage with the NFTs and Saksaykar.
How are you guys doing?
What up, what up?
Hey, again.
Good.
How's everybody doing?
All right.
And, of course, our star guest, we have Shannon and Richard from the moment.
How are you guys doing?
Doing good, thanks.
Let's give some amazing background right here.
We've got Aokiverse in the house and Richard, who actually was helping through Manifold.
So, we've got the tech provider and we've got the illustrious Shannon from Aokiverse giving us the hot new alpha on what I can expect from my latest ultraviolet pass.
So, maybe some interesting teasers.
We'll see.
Thanks.
Nice to be here.
Yeah.
And Richard built a stellar platform and has been hosting some of the top artists in, I would say, in the world now, man.
And you just continue to crush it.
And everybody can always identify you by your 3D glasses anytime you're at the events.
So, I appreciate that you keep the motif.
Yeah, it's good to be here.
And, yeah, I'm a big 3D glasses connoisseur.
So, if you ever see me wearing 3D glasses, then it's easy to spot me.
I also wear blue and red shoes.
So, that's also another big giveaway.
It helps.
It helps.
And you did it at Art Basel recently, right?
I think I saw some photos of you out there.
Yeah.
I pretty much do it at every single Web3 or NT event.
Sometimes even at home, too.
Yeah.
Just kicking it with mixed match shoes at home.
I used to do that with my Vans way back in the day, which makes me miss my Vans, actually.
I think as a kid, I had too much fun with the colored laces, the checkered font, the, what's it called, patterns and whatnot.
But it looks like we're waiting on two more people to request up.
And in the free time, why don't you guys, I give a little bit of your background.
But, Richard, do you want to jump in a little bit more on what you've been doing?
What does frictionless experience mean for you?
You know, the whole shebang?
Yeah.
So, I'm the co-founder of Manifold.
So, Manifold, we are a, or Manifold's mission is to enable a creative solver team in Web3.
And we do so by providing artists and creators in this space with tools to kind of navigate the Web3 ecosystem.
And so, like, one of our flagship products is called Manifold Studio.
And that lets creators pretty much deploy their own smart contracts, upload media, and mint NFTs on those contracts in a very seamless way.
And so, like, you know, it's almost no code at this point.
Actually, it is no code.
Most creators can get through the whole flow in, like, 10 minutes or so.
And that's going from, like, not having anything to deploying your own smart contract and the TNN and TNN.com contract.
And, you know, when it comes to, like, frictionless Web3 experiences, you know, we always think about things from product-first perspective.
And we always realize that, you know, a lot of people, like, Web3 is a very complicated tech space.
And there's a lot of jargon and lots of, like, you know, things that, you know, the common layperson don't know.
And so, we always try to think of it as, you know, what is the easiest thing we can do to provide, you know, and just create a good product experience, you know.
And so, I think having a lot of empathy goes a long way.
And, you know, when we were creating our products, one of the big things is that we actually sat down with probably, like, hundreds of artists before we actually deployed Mantle Studio for the masses.
And that really just informed us of, like, you know, what were the questions they were asking as they were kind of going through this process.
And that really just, like, you know, having a lot of empathy really goes a long way for creating, like, really good experiences.
That it does.
Shannon, from your side, can you talk a little bit about what your journey has been in Web3, what you see as frictionless experiences, and then, you know, talk a little bit about your role stepping in as managing director at Ilkibur.
So, that's got to be really exciting.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I mean, I can almost instantly jump off of what Richard said, because I completely agree that having a lot of empathy goes a long way, mostly because I have been the recipient of that through my journey in Web3, because I come from the music industry.
I've spent almost 20 years in music, and so that's how I got to where I am with Aoki Verse.
I knew Steve's manager, Matt Colon, pretty well, and had been previously.
I was the head of pop and dance electronic music at the Grammys.
Before that, I was tour manager and director of operations for Moby, and then before that, I was a publicist at Universal Music and had also done some, you know, event production for a lot of the award shows that are out here in Los Angeles.
So, kind of had a pretty varied background.
And so, I think, you know, when Matt started talking to me about Aoki Verse, it was really interesting because, you know, even though I didn't know anything about Web3 other than, you know, I started dabbling in crypto just as an investment opportunity, you know, in like 2017, 2018.
Everything else about sort of what we've seen come out of particularly music NFT projects with the, you know, royalties and the IRL events and the really understanding how to build a community and how to make a membership community feel cohesive and intimate, you know,
so they really identify themselves with the community and with the artist is things that we've been doing in music, you know, for decades now.
So, it was just really interesting to see that my background kind of, you know, was perfect for what they needed.
But to, you know, Richard's point and sort of the point we're talking about frictionless entrance, yeah, you know, my very first day of joining was, okay, let's set me up with a MetaMask account, you know, what is this passport?
How do I get one of these?
What do I need to do?
So, you know, part of the reason I did that was so I would have the experience of from start to finish walking in as a new holder, right?
So, I wasn't jumping in and getting the fast track experience.
I was like, no, no, I want to know what our holders are going through.
So, if at any point I say, okay, I feel like this is a pain point, you know, then that means that's something that we need to look at because we want to make sure that we understand what the holder experience is.
So, I think that was really good actually that I didn't, you know, really know what I was getting into because if we're looking to mass adoption, that's, I think, what we have to understand.
So, you know, I've obviously moved lightning fast ever since I started in March.
But, yeah, it's been a really great experience.
And I think, you know, one thing I've really realized is that Steve has earned his stripes.
You know, he certainly understands the space.
He loves the space.
He is in it to win it.
He's not, you know, we're not trying to do any rugs for sure, mostly because we love the community, but also because, you know, he really loves the space.
And we do think that this is the future for most music artists.
Man, that time from March must have gone in a blink, didn't it?
Yeah, I really honestly can't believe it's 2023.
I mean, I was like, Art Basel, and I'm like, it's the holidays.
I'm like, but I just started.
I don't know.
How is it almost a year?
I bet we could all probably share an experience of when we were onboarded into crypto and how we went from the tedium of looking at these really, really complicated exchanges, wallets, whatever.
And then we blinked in, you know, five months had passed because it just becomes obsessive going down that rabbit hole.
So everybody I talked to is just like, oh, crypto is in a different time warp.
It really is.
I mean, working in entertainment for years, you know, I thought and I actually said this on an NFT Now panel last week at Basel that like I thought entertainment moved fast because, you know, I come from a family that like, you know, they're Midwestern and they're like work at furniture stores and everything.
So, you know, my my vision of like, oh, my God, entertainment is so fast.
And then I got into Web3 and I was like, oh, my God, this is even faster.
Like, you know, it's like it's like dog years.
Web3 is dog years.
Yeah, Zach, how did you get onboarded?
Did you feel like you were pulling teeth trying to like set up your first wallet?
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, man, it's hard to imagine how I first got onboarded.
I was doing like fintech startups way back in like 2011.
But honestly, I think it was the first time I really paid attention to a non-custodial wallet really would have been an NFT with CryptoKitties.
Back in probably was at 17 or 18.
And yeah, before that, I hadn't really paid attention to how any of that worked.
And then, yeah, I don't know.
It does feel like time has been flying.
And I can certainly relate to Shannon, like, you know, NFLA was last was just this year in March.
And I can't tell if that was 10 years ago or yesterday.
And I just realized there are other two came up.
What's up, Jerry and Gia?
Like we both we got both of you in.
So hello, hello, real quick and give a brief intro since we've kind of sped ahead.
No problem.
So hi, everyone.
My name is Jerry and I'm a tokenomics analyst at Animoca Brands.
So I used to work in traditional finance.
But, you know, I realized that it was just not it.
I wanted to be on the forefront of the next wave of generational change.
So then I started investing in Bitcoin and subsequently NFTs and really went into a full degen mode, you know, exploring the different verticals and getting some skin in the game for myself.
But, you know, all jokes aside, I was extremely curious about the different applications of the blockchain and, you know, the myriad of new opportunities for all people in all walks of life.
So I'm very happy to be here and to have a conversation with fellow individuals, like minded individuals in space.
Awesome.
Hi, everyone.
I'm Jha from Playground.
Thank you so much for having me.
I started my career in advertising as a creative director.
Most of my brands and clients were in tech, entertainment and youth culture.
So I was specializing in social and media, doing brand activation experiences for clients like YouTube, Nike, Facebook, etc.
And because of that, I got exposed to social gaming pretty early on.
I got into Web3 and crypto.
In 2018, I started to really think about what the future of social might look like.
I was at a party in Berlin and I met Vinay Gupta's team at a house party.
And one of their someone on their marketing team kind of told me about how, you know, how it could be decentralized.
So fast forward to 2021, I'm fundraising for a Web3 social platform called Playground that's centered around community, around experience to bring people together.
And that is decentralized.
So Animoca Brands led that round.
So hi, Jerry.
I think we met at the party a couple weeks ago.
At the London party.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, let her around, let her precede around.
And I think that's when, you know, when you are in an ecosystem such as theirs.
I know NFTLA is also a fellow PortCo and I've been able to meet you guys.
It was just so amazing to just see what the space is about and to build together.
So that really accelerated my journey as well.
And we were building a lot upon first getting funded, but then this has really been coming out to show what we've been doing.
So, yeah, I feel like I'll never go back.
It's been amazing.
What I'm hearing is like the entire stage is full of people I want to party with.
And that's where the real business gets done.
It sounds like Shannon can can curate because clearly she's she's been killing it with some parties in the past.
You have Richard probably kicking it with his 3D glasses and multi 3D glasses and multicolored shoes.
Got Jerry posted up in London, just going to all the the nice schmoozing events.
Animoca too, man.
Animoca seems to be in every successful project I talk to.
So how are you finding these guys, Jerry?
Is it all the parties?
Like, where's where's my invite list?
Well, I haven't been to that many parties, parties myself.
But the reason I went to was by with Possessed.
That was really cool.
The vibes are really nice.
Shannon, I think you have the Possessed profile pics.
I do.
I love Possessed.
Yes.
But I think Animoca has been doing lots of building in different verticals in the space.
And most of that is in gaming.
But there's also other verticals such as education, which which we've seen is really huge here.
So in terms of like frictionless Web3 experiences, you know, people, people, people buy into NFTs and they expect some kind of return most of the time.
But there's actually other utilities behind them.
And when they start exploring these different actions, they're actually learning throughout the process.
And every step of the way, they're actually taking something out of it.
And these are the lessons we have taken from gaming companies where, you know, when you go through tutorials and you spend 10 minutes on learning a specific skill attribute, you've come out of that tutorial learning like this new skill that can be applied within that game.
So Animoca has, you know, their hands in many different projects.
And what we want to do is try to onboard the next million users and teach people that Web3 is not that difficult after all.
Yeah, I want to open it up because it's interesting.
I feel like gaming is also something where everybody is probably doing some sort of gaming in the Web3 land and we can speak to that.
But it's also a place where we see a lot of the friction to frictionless environment work being developed.
But I think more generally, I'd love to hear everybody's opinion on interacting with Web3 projects and services.
Like, where are we driving the most improvement right now?
Is it wallet creation?
Do we feel like that is still the thing that's causing people headache?
Or is it further down the line on, like, access to websites, utility functions, things like that?
Where are people getting hung up these days?
I think a lot of people are stuck with the complexity of the terminology and the different actions they have to take.
So just with wallets, right, we have custodial wallets and non-custodial wallets.
But in the real world, we have the money that we keep in our own actual wallet and the bank.
And we think we own all of that.
So when we trust another institution or a middle person to host our assets, that is already confusing for a lot of people.
So right now in Web3, there's this thing called, like, account abstraction, where the goal is to improve and simplify the UX for users.
And they do that by removing the complexity of all this and doing all that tech stuff on the background so that users don't need to know about it.
Just like in games, right, when we play Call of Duty or we play Fortnite, we don't really, most users don't care that it's built on Unity or Unreal Engine.
They just know, like, oh, this game is really great and it runs on my PC.
And the frame rate is really high.
So with the account abstraction, all this is simplified and you're kind of, the information that you need is stored on the blockchain.
But for the user, all they see is what they're comfortable with.
That's the normal app swipe functions that they have.
Yeah, it's kind of like, I've been thinking, when are gaming consoles going to become cold storage wallets?
Like, when are, like, when is the Apple, it's going to be as common as, like, Apple Pay.
Like, it comes pre-downloaded on your phone and that wallet setup is just there tied to a more comfortable ID or user experience.
Richard, I would love to hear your opinion as well as somebody who's been spending a lot on the back end and trying to figure out some of these problems and how to make it easy for people.
Not just, like, people to purchase and use NFT assets the way they need to be used, but how to onboard artists and other people that are interested in diving in.
Yeah, so, you know, I think one of the big problems right now is that we have a lot of terminology and jargon.
And I don't think it helps.
Like, you know, for example, when you call, say, something's a wallet, it's not actually a wallet.
Because, you know, it doesn't actually hold anything.
Your wallet is just your keys to the blockchain that has access to things.
And so, like, you know, that's a very confusing concept because it changes the paradigm of what people think is ownership, right?
You know, things are owned on the blockchain.
You just have access to it.
And so, you know, that's, like, one thing.
The second thing is just it's really hard to just armor people because, you know, first of all, you have to set up your wallet, you know, whatever a wallet is in that case.
And then you have to be responsible for the security of that.
And we all know how important that is.
So, you know, a lot of people always default to the easiest thing was to use sort of a centralized system.
But, you know, as we saw with the whole FTX thing, that's always not usually the best case.
And so, you know, I think that there's going to be some sort of hybrid solution in there.
And, you know, when I think about it, I can see a case where we go towards a world where the onboarding is sort of, like, centralized.
But you're able to off-board very easily and create a self-custody solution for that.
So, you know, an example of this would be, let's just say, if we took the concept of a wallet and turned it not into a wallet, but turned it into a smart contract.
And then you could have the smart contract act as your wallet.
It's really, like, you know, it's safe.
But then your, the access keys to it, so that could be your MetaMask or even your phone, but it could have access to it.
And you could have, like, strong permissions on that smart contract itself.
And so what that would do is that you could, you could actually delegate custody, delegate control to a centralized service.
And then once you've kind of learned the ropes and are ready to, like, remove that tie, you can do so and then have a fully self-custody dissolution.
That's, like, one thing.
The other thing I think is mobile.
I think it's kind of ridiculous that I can't do any Web3 actions unless I'm, you know, secure Web3 actions unless I'm, like, you know, near my computer with a hardware wallet.
And so, you know, I think that, you know, if you look at some of the websites, I would say the majority of traffic comes from mobile.
And so when you think about Web3 experiences, you should meet users where they're at.
And so, you know, there's been tons of times where I'm, like, okay, I want to do some sort of action on Web3 or take advantage of something or buy something on Web3.
But, you know, I'm just not at my computer.
And I don't have my hardware wallet.
And so I actually plan my life around some of these events just because I want to participate.
But really, you know, you got to meet people around that.
You know, a lot, everyone uses their phones.
Mobile phone usage is probably the highest it's ever been.
And, you know, Web3 is just not designed for mobile at this point.
So I think that's, you know, I think that's a big opportunity for creating these kind of seamless experiences going forward.
Was that kind of like what Flow, not Flow, but NBA Top Shot, like one of the onboarding experiences with them that made them take off was that they custodialized the assets originally.
And then you could create a wallet after the fact and offload it, right?
And I think you're right.
There is still that intersection of centralization and decentralized where you run into issues of if somebody else is custodializing the wallet, do they have access to the keys?
Versus if something is stored in a transferable way on a centralized entity and then can offload, but still gives people function.
It's just more of a security metric that they can cut or security measure that they can put in place if they want to or not.
But I agree.
I think I think it's it's not a lot of people want to jump through all these hoops, but there's rewards for jumping through those hoops.
And I'd like to kind of throw to you a bit about that, Shannon, because I jumped through a lot of hoops in the initial stage for Aoki Verse and I was rewarded.
I got a lot of credits for it.
And I feel like there's something to be said about that.
The guys who got in or early to like Board Ape Yacht Club and some of the other NFT projects is, yeah, it's a little tedious sometimes, but that's also part of the conviction in the committed community you get.
Or when people are stepping through that, like, do we think that this is kind of your core base are the people that are going to move through the friction points?
And yeah, yeah, I don't know if we want to talk a little bit more about like how value kind of trickles down from the top.
Yeah, I mean, it definitely does.
Right. Like we have about 2,500 holders all across right now.
We've got six levels of Aoki Verse, you know, and we do provide the most value, you know, just to be brutally honest, to our top three levels.
And the top three levels are about 55 people.
So, you know, that means that out of 2,500, you know, we've got 2,450 who, you know, are definitely a major part of our community and we definitely provide value to them.
But, you know, we just aren't giving them white glove service.
So to your point, you know, there is a lot of value into getting in early on a lot of these things.
But, I mean, if what we're discussing here is sort of, you know, frictionless entrance and ultimate mass adoption, then, you know, that white glove service isn't going isn't scalable because I'm not going to be able to create a WhatsApp chat with, you know, every holder that we have, you know, who gets to a certain level within the system.
So, you know, I think we do have to start looking at things that make those types of things easier.
And one of the things that I found really helpful to Richard's point, you know, I can't be by my computer all the time and honestly, I don't want to.
But, you know, like World of Women started using token proof, you know, BFF started using token proof.
So I think more things like that that start to mimic systems that we've used in the past are going to be really helpful because if you're having to go to an event and prove that you're a holder and prove that you've got OG status or whatever, you're not going to carry around your wallet, you know, your cold wallet.
Because obviously that defeats the purpose.
It's not secure if it's in your pocket.
So, you know, I think anything like a token proof or something that's going to make it really easy for people just kind of prove that they own the thing they say they do, but they don't have to continually be carrying around their computer is going to be really easy.
You know, if you think about the fact that you have, as Jerry was saying earlier, you know, you have banks and your money is in there and you just assume that you own that stuff.
But the minute Venmo came out, which gave you the ability to transfer money from any bank to any bank using an email address or a telephone number, you know, that exploded.
So I think that's kind of where we're headed with this as well is that, yes, there's decentralization, but we're going to have to make it easy enough to share, to transfer, to validate.
Otherwise, a lot of these experiences that we're giving to our, you know, most important holders, I think are ultimately going to be too cumbersome to scale.
I'm always wondering, is it that it is too much friction or am I getting old?
And so maybe both, I don't know.
Probably a little bit of both because it's like, yeah, you know, Snapchat and Instagram sometimes still wig me out when they have upgrades.
And so, like, we've got a youth culture expert here working in crypto.
So I would love to, like, what is kind of the sentiment on the younger generation that's onboarding into crypto right now?
Where are they struggling and where are they probably thriving in places that I would struggle?
Oh, yeah, I mean, I would say that they're really interested in this technology.
They're, you know, they're kind of made in this world where they have less trust in the authorities.
I think just from a Web2 or Web3 perspective, they're on platforms like BeReal, which is, you know, in my perspective, a lot of these platforms tend to, like, flame out.
So we'll wait and see.
But I think that the lasting sentiment here is that it's spaces where they can be themselves, be more authentic, and it's more ephemeral rather than content that is static and that stays up in a feed for a really long time.
I think people crave authenticity, and I think that that's why community is sort of going to be โ that's more than a buzzword.
It's central to how humans are wired.
So it's probably more relevant to Gen Z than ever before because they've grown up in an age where media has dominated their lives.
So I think that they're willing to try anything to โ in order to belong and fit in, just like any kind of, like, teenagers could relate to.
You know, we all went through that.
And so I think that the easier a platform can make people feel something, I think we all know what it's like to enter a forum where, you know, it's either filled with bots or scams or people shilling versus, like, a space where you genuinely feel heard and you can be yourself and people feel that they belong.
Then I feel like then you've got โ then you've got something that, you know, youth will gravitate towards because they're โ more than anyone can kind of call out bullshit and sense it, I think, more than anyone.
So, yeah, I see them on platforms like B-roll, but I see them โ yeah, I mean, like, there's โ I mean, most people, a lot of founders in their space, they are โ they're very young founders, right?
So I feel like they not only see the technology but are building with it and young kids are on all of these platforms starting very young, just building.
So I think that it's in โ yeah, they'll already see that utility is through what they experience for themselves versus what's being told to them.
Once the kids find out about AR โ AI art, we're screwed.
Like, the meme culture is going to explode.
We just get to have to be here.
It's interesting just watching people in the Discord play with, like, Mid Journey and some of this.
Talk about frictionless.
It's โ we've moved away from painting with paintbrushes to you just put words into something and hit enter, and it tries to predict what you're going to do.
That's just so bizarre a world to me.
Oh, it's only going to get weirder.
We're moving quickly.
And, you know, on that kind of rapid change topic that Joe was bringing up around, you know,
it's hard to actually know whether a platform is going to flame out or really last.
You know, the โ what we sometimes look at as friction around here really is just that switching.
Can you get enough critical mass of any type of user to switch on to a new way of doing things and then keep them around for a while?
And I don't know that we've proven yet that the masses really, you know, in their behavior care that much about different models of ownership and replacing middlemen.
But I do think, especially with these last couple years of, you know, digital art and all the other parts of, you know,
the entertainment and creative world that the NFT boom changed and that creators can really drive that because they're highly motivated to find solutions.
Yeah, so I'd love to hear if anyone has any interest there or any, you know, interesting insights there around, you know, the next year or two
and how much the big creators are going to drive, you know, let's say that next million or even next billion users.
Yeah, I mean, I guess from the music side of things, I do see that they're really moving forward on this.
You know, I think what we're seeing particularly with Warner UK trying to jump into the game,
you're seeing with, you know, estates not necessarily having had a great release experience, let's say,
if you looked at, you know, maybe the estate of Biggie Smalls and their release or if you're looking at the estate of Tupac and their release.
But I think what those show is that it's not just, you know, young new artists who are interested in this.
It's the whole gamut, right?
And even though the genres that are most excited about Web3, let's say, tend to be dance electronic and hip-hop
because those are two genre cultures that have always had to sort of function outside of the mainstream
in order to get, you know, fans, in order to create community, get their music out.
So, you know, anything new is absolutely standard for those genres.
You know, when you start to see people like Breeland get interested,
when you start to see, you know, Avenged Sevenfold, who obviously has really been in the space and done a good job,
you know, those are genres that have generally, let's say, on the older side of fandoms, right?
And so rock and country specifically, I think, are genres that aren't necessarily geared towards embracing the new thing.
But if we have success cases like we're starting to have in those genres,
along with labels really trying to get into it, you know, universal with kingship,
then what that says to me is that the industry as a whole recognizes that this is the direction we're moving in.
And rather than fighting it the way that they did with, you know, streaming and MP3s back in the 2000s,
you know, they're understanding that they're trying to embrace it this time.
And so when you start to see really massive companies like that put money behind it and start to really hire people,
I think that means that 2023 is going to see a lot of movement in the space.
I would agree with that.
I'm a huge fan of all the artists that showed up and started building even when the audience wasn't here,
just on the anticipation that being ahead of the curve,
coming in to something when it's new is incredibly valuable towards getting an early head start on that audience curation.
And so like Aoki obviously showed up really, really soon.
But you're right, like Avenged Sevenfold, Blau, Flostradamus, RAC, like there's, it's funny,
I saw so many in EDM community, you see a lot also in the rap community, Snoop Dogg, Eminem.
And I know a couple country artists that have started putting out content too,
and Rock's certainly getting there.
So if that's anything, that's our North Star just telling us we're on the right path.
And I don't see it slowing down.
If anything, I see it accelerating.
So hopefully some of my favorite brands decide that they're going to put out an NFT in the next year.
And I think it's really going to be beneficial if people start getting lifetime tickets and things like that.
But these $100 price tags or whatever are incredibly justified.
Because like some of their shows are super hard to get into.
They sell out quick.
And if I can get an NFT to reserve me a spot, I think that's pretty frictionless versus, you know,
fighting with Ticketmaster, let's say, to get into the latest Taylor Swift.
Wasn't that like some?
Yeah, totally.
Well, and I think you make a really good point.
Because if you really want to talk about early value, you know, you're mentioning, you know, $100 buy-ins.
That is not going to be the case in maybe even six months.
You know, I mean, once people, it's either that or we're going to start to see a real cut down of, quote unquote, lifetime utility.
Right.
Because depending on what's happening with all of the sort of shifting sands about secondary royalties going to the original creator, you know, that was a real draw for musicians because they've never really had that before.
You know, when you're in film and television, you know, the actors get residuals.
So whatever you make, you know, you get the original payment for it.
But then that's why everybody loves syndication as a television actor, because you essentially continue to get paid in perpetuity every time something that you were on runs again.
Right.
Whereas musicians clearly have never gotten that.
Money has either always gone to the label first so they could recoup their advance or then, you know, everybody knows the stats on streaming,
which is why so many of the Web3 companies have tried to sort of fix that solution or fix that problem and create a solution to the idea of streaming needs to provide money to the creator.
So I think coming back to that, you know, if we're providing like we at Aokiverse, you know, I know that we've had a lot of people say like, oh, my God, you guys are so amazing.
Like I'm holding right because I've already made like four or five times X my my investment or my input or whatever.
Well, that's awesome. And I'm so excited that you value our product and that you're you know, you're really enjoying the community.
But we still are a company. And so at a certain point, you have to start saying, OK, where where do we make money to continue to provide that value,
particularly if we're doing things like airdropping our entire holder base, you know, on Cyber Skypods, which we did back over the summer.
You know, it was super exciting. I really loved partnering with on Cyber. I'm sure Richard can speak to it.
It was a really fun thing to do. But at the same time, you know, it didn't necessarily provide us with any income to continue to provide lifetime utility.
So I think that's something that we're going to start to see is when people start to understand how much work this takes and how long it goes on for.
There is going to be a change in the buy in because there just has to be in order for it to continue.
Yeah. Hey, Josh, welcome to the stage, by the way.
We have Josh from Edge of NFT and NFT LA in the his house.
Josh, what's up, everyone?
This is such a fun topic.
Hey, Josh, how's it going?
Good to see everyone.
And yeah, such a fun and important topic that I had to, like, come up stage and fan out and ask this great panel a quick question that's on my mind.
And for the last few minutes since Richard spoke up and, you know, we just did a podcast today with Warner Brothers that's going to air later on Game of Thrones.
So really interesting what they're doing.
And this has been on my mind a lot.
And I think it's helpful to have honest conversations about words and their meaning, like Richard said.
And, you know, the pink elephant in the room is the word NFT.
It's easy to say.
It's short.
It's catchy.
Saying digital collectible or community-based membership online or verifiable digital ownership.
These aren't fun words.
NFT is kind of a fun word.
But have we alienated ourselves as a community with this language where you've got companies like Starbucks that are essentially doing Web3 project.
It's a profound project.
But they want nothing to do with the word NFT.
NFT and the recoil of the gaming industry where, you know, a lot of these Web3 gaming companies are going back into the Web2 gaming world and saying, please forgive us.
We're just doing really cool gamification things that works.
Do you guys on the panel feel that the word NFT is causing friction?
I don't think so right now.
Like, you know, just to give you some context.
I remember back when I started working in Bitcoin before it was called crypto.
People always recalling me, like, what is Bitcoin?
And it had this very negative connotation.
Then it turned to crypto.
And then Bitcoin was kind of accepted.
And then we went to Web3.
And then Web3 kind of like was more accepted.
But crypto was this kind of like weird term.
So I think it's an evolution, right?
And I think NFTs are still being understood.
And, you know, I think a lot of these big brands and companies are still trying to figure out what is exactly going on here and what makes NFTs special.
But, you know, I think the hard part is that technology is just, you know, there's lots of jargon in there.
And jargon kind of scares people, right?
But, you know, I think just over time it's just going to become more and more accepted.
And, you know, I think the terminology will just become more like a widely known.
And, you know, I think one of the big problems right now is that, you know, entities have this connotation behind speculation, especially with like last year and all the big prices going on.
And I think a lot of people are trying to distance themselves from that sort of speaking language.
But, you know, the exact same thing happened with Bitcoin and crypto, you know, and even Web3.
And so, you know, I think it's just going to take time.
You know, just take more people just to be more familiar with it.
And eventually people would be like, okay, you know, they're going to talk about it for what it is.
Yeah, digital collectible LA just doesn't have the same ring to it.
No, but DCLA could work.
I mean, and that's, I think, one thing if we want to get really into the weeds about it.
NFT isn't actually a word that's an acronym.
It stands for digital, you know, non-fungible token.
So if we start to change what we call it, we can also create an acronym out of that.
So I guess that's where I would say.
I like it.
DCLA.
Sounds like you're doing a coast to coast.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, I mean, you know, to Richard's point, everything is mutable, right?
Like it's going to change.
It's going to be what it is.
I mean, I think for us in terms of those of us who are community focused, NFT does have a little bit of a negative connotation at the moment.
You know, you'll say to your community, and actually I did see this actually happen with a different community.
You know, they take a survey and they say, hey, do you want us to get into NFTs?
And you get like 65% of your community saying no.
And then you say, oh, okay, do you want us to give you digital collectibles?
Do you want us to give you verifiable digital ownership?
And 65% say yes.
So, I mean, even though I agree with Richard in that, you know, everything is going to change.
And as people's understanding of Web3 grows and deepens, you know, the connotations will also change in their mind.
But we also have to meet people where they are.
And if NFT has a negative connotation right now, the words don't matter.
Let's just onboard them and we'll call it whatever they need us to call it until we get them on board.
Yeah, I mean, I sort of lean in your direction, Shannon.
But I do respect what Richard is saying as well.
It's a complicated issue.
Ja and Jerry, what do you think?
Well, I think most people don't know what NFTs are.
So maybe we can, a good way to imagine them would be like NFTs are like a digital container that stores something.
So that could be storing the right to own that digital asset or storing the value of culture.
So I suppose for a young generation, memes relate to a lot of people.
And behind memes, there's a lot of culture behind that.
And what NFTs really have done is innovation around ownership, right?
So there are many paradigms to ownership.
You can buy something, you can sell it, but also it gives you that commercial rights to that unique application.
So what NFTs do is that it gives the owners a way to kind of be the spokesperson for what they own
and build on that network effect when people see that you have this item.
So when you promote it on that behalf, you're actually getting more out of that decentralized IP ownership.
And that value kind of feeds back into you as well as the community you're part of.
So, and there's a lot of power behind the community because it's the people around it that support and give that specific item the value that we perceive.
And that is usually as a result because we have a particular stake in it.
Yeah, on that note, I think it depends on, you know, what audience you're talking to.
So in Web3, we have a stake in it.
We've jumped in, we've participated.
And so for us, these ideas, they're harder to intellectualize versus you experience it by doing it.
And I think the difference of who you talk to about it is if you're talking to a Web2 audience who hasn't been on this journey.
And from the onset, they've been watching and like kind of theorizing and talking about NFTs versus being in it.
Then they more than ever, I think, are sort of turned off at the moment.
And I have met projects that were very Web3 and are now going a more Web 2.5 path where they're redoing their entire marketing landing pages and ripping out any kind of like NFT language because they're trying to go after, you know, people who aren't in the space.
But then at the same time, for people who are in the space, I feel like I've never been more energized and inspired, you know, in my life.
And I don't feel like it's affected my sentiments on it at all.
So, yeah, it really depends on what audience you're talking to.
I know that our project is sort of at an interesting intersection between talking to brands sometimes and but also very heavy Web3 builders.
And I think on the brand side, even though, you know, chains like Polygon have made a lot of headway into getting trusted, iconic brands into the space, a lot of them are still very tentative and don't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole.
So I feel like my partners who own an agency, it's been like a slow burn and they're still curious.
But I think that there's definitely caution in that space as well.
So really, I think more than ever, it's like a fragmented audience.
It depends on who you're talking about.
If you've experienced it and if you need something more to you than than art or pro-propature, you've experienced the benefits.
And if you haven't experienced it, then there's no reason why maybe they're sticking around and want to give it a chance, especially now.
Such a rich and thoughtful conversation from our our panelists.
Thank you for that.
Let's do a quick straw poll of everyone in the audience.
There's about 200 people here.
If you think the word NFT is causing friction to Web3 experiences, put a thumb up.
If you think it's not causing friction, put a thumb down.
So everyone that's listening will know if you're really listening.
Thumb up or thumb down.
We want to hear from all of you.
All right.
So the question is, is the NFT hurting the word NFT hurting the digital experience?
I think it is.
Are you counting thumbs, Josh?
I'm scanning.
I'm scanning thumbs.
It's this is impossible because I can't scroll fast enough through all the thumbs.
But there's my Twitter live polling system.
That's a thing, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's probably something there.
But definitely interesting mix of perspectives on this topic.
Thanks for indulging me in my my question, guys.
That's a great question.
You know, it's funny.
I just spent one hundred dollars on Apex Legend in game currency and I hated myself immediately
after.
There's nothing more deflating than being in the NFT world and then spending your money
on in game currency that, you know, you're never going to get back.
Like, there's something to be said about that in the gaming community.
I feel like all like Fortnite and all the rest of them need to do is just kind of open
up some kind of secondary back end market and NFT it without telling anybody it's an
NFT.
And if you just tell people you can sell your your skin or trade it with other people, they
would just be like, oh, that's dope.
Like, they wouldn't ask about the blockchain technology and all that.
I don't know.
Am I alone in that thought?
Is this kind of what we're seeing in the gaming world right now?
Or is this something that is too far on the horizon?
It's we still got to see the dirty word, the NFT word.
I'm not aware of it really happening in that way, but I, you know, like we were talking
about early on in the conversation, one possible path to the lower friction would be, you know,
where you don't actually need to take custody until you're off ramping.
So it's got to come.
It's got to happen.
I mean, yeah, I mean, I honestly, I would have, you know, if I rewind five years, have
expected gaming to have had an even bigger adoption and more rapid adoption curve than
it has.
So that's, I mean, just somewhere where I, my prediction was way off.
I don't think that that means that it won't still be, you know, one of the major, you know,
sources of fuel for, for growth and bringing on those next, you know, million, hundred million,
even billion people into a new way of interacting with the, you know, digital everything and
actually accepting that digital assets can even be a thing.
And maybe that's what drove a lot of the initial push of this last kind of bubble was simply
the fact that enough people at least thought possibly we can accept that digital ownership
of digital art, for example, is a thing.
Yeah.
It's going to be a fun year or so of more building.
I want to ask everybody one final question.
And I would like to invite anybody who's in the audience to come up and ask some questions
if they'd like, but let's kind of give some final thoughts on what are you personally doing
to reduce friction in your own communities and, and help with this whole process that
we're talking about?
I can keep it open if somebody wants to jump in.
Otherwise I'm going to call you guys out in order.
All right.
Well, I got to start with my, my, my boy, Zach, what are you doing for, to reduce friction in
your community?
You didn't think I was going to call on you, did you?
So now I'm ready for you.
Well, I mean, even along the lines of what I was just talking about, for example, when
you come to NFT LA this March, you don't have to mint your ticket, purchase it on second
or anything like that.
But you are going to receive an NFT for checking in to the event and be able to put that in
whatever wallet you want.
So really whatever your level of comfort with interacting with tokens is, you'll have a
way to do that.
And it's not wanting to do it isn't going to stop you from registering to attend and enjoying
the conference.
And so what I want to add, maybe even, so that's where I'm like reducing friction and then where
I'm trying to maybe drive adoption is find every possible way to make interacting using
wallets fun.
And I think that's like, if I could pick any one thing, it's just let people have more
fun.
I like fun.
You know, like it shouldn't be a slog.
No, I, at least if you're going to put me through multiple steps, make those steps
fun.
Yeah.
I think that's sort of my life philosophy as well.
You can't go wrong if you're having fun and having joyful, connected experiences.
So I think that's really deep wisdom actually.
Well, well, I, we're going to throw to you now because you got the, the, uh, to speak
So, um, yeah.
What about you?
What are you doing to reduce friction or fun?
I mean, I think this is probably just a very fun panel because it's about experiences.
I find that because we've centered our social platform around social experiences, everyone
that comes around our project playground is a really interesting, fun person because they're
because that means you've lived experiences.
So I feel like what brought us all on this panel is probably because we've had, um, really
interesting lives and we could probably have like, like love chatting at a bar together,
right?
About all our stories or whatnot.
Um, but anyway, playground was actually founded upon these principles.
That's why I called it playground.
Um, we see the whole world as a playground, you know, no matter who you are, um, what you
look like, where you're from, there's always community, new things to do together, new people
to me, like the chances of being alive, even like on this planet are super slim.
So just like, let's play.
And I feel like that's kind of what web three is.
We have the chance to co-create, um, and co-own and kind of like design upon like imagination
rather than what's existing.
Um, so I think that that's a perfect setup for what we're trying to do.
We're trying to make, um, our platform fun, um, and our brand, um, scale those values.
Um, because we think that joy is like the ultimate wellbeing and like self-expression.
You can be yourself.
And that's why community is so important.
It's spaces to be yourself.
Um, so we think that, um, yeah, the experience people always say, what's the bridge from web
two to three, I do think it's experience.
So that to me means what's the experience of like, what's UX, right.
And then how you communicate about it.
What's the design, um, the more craft you can put into this and make it feel new and
fun.
Like that will resonate.
Um, and I think that that's why it's interesting to get new people in this space that are not
just builders, but you know, like the marketers, they know how to talk about it in a really
human and relatable way or the designers.
And, you know, they might, you know, understand it from a different perspective, but they're
definitely the ones that can help you, um, uh, can help all builders kind of make things
more accessible.
Um, well, we're massively grateful.
You have, you have positive, upbeat vibes.
Oh, thank you.
I mean, yeah, I'm grateful to be up here with all of you and that's a reflection of all of
you.
So yeah, I can't wait to like meet all of you at the next one.
Um, all right.
Does somebody else want to go?
Richard, you want to give me a little bit on manifolds doing a lot?
I would assume to reduce friction.
Um, I guess for us, it's just mainly just listening to our users and figure out what
they want to do.
Uh, you know, our whole thing is you have a whole creative part of manifold, which
kind of tries to design the design products.
And we spend a lot of time testing them just to make sure that they are up to standards
and, you know, creators can actually use them with very little friction.
And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, all pretty much everyone in the company
is a product owner.
And so we spend a lot of time on just like product design because, you know, we understand
that they, they are, there are actually humans using these products.
And so when it goes back to empathy, it's making sure that, you know, we spend the care
in time to make sure that even the smallest details are, have been paid attention to.
I love that.
Listening is the utility.
Um, Shannon.
Yeah.
I almost called you Sherber.
That's okay.
Lots of people do.
Um, you know, honestly, firstly, I just want to give a big thanks to Richard and manifold
because honestly, I think, you know, the journey that our holders go on is very smooth, honestly,
and they are a massive part of that.
I mean, they're amazing partners, you know, Richard and his team can create things out
of thin air that work beautifully and they do them so fast.
And, you know, like he said, it's just because they, you know, want to give back to the community.
So the community of Web3 as a whole.
So, I mean, I just want to thank Richard so much for that because really we could not
be as forward thinking and frictionless as we are without amazing partners like manifold.
So, um, I just want to say that first.
Um, but then secondly, to build off of what he said, you know, yeah, we're, we listened
to the users as well.
You know, um, Aoki verse was, I think the first, uh, dynamic NFT.
And so, you know, when people access it rather than having to go to a site and constantly
pay attention to discord, I mean, which we want them to do, but, you know, I understand
people are busy.
They can always just go to their, um, you know, inter.aokiverse.xyz.
They can click on their own personal passport once their wallet's connected.
And then a list of everything that they could claim, have claimed, you know, may possibly
may be able to claim all that it's just all listed every time we have a reward, it's in
there.
So people can keep track of what they've done.
They can make sure that they're getting what they signed up for.
And they definitely keep us on our toes with that.
And then we also give them achievement stamps.
Um, you know, so if they've participated in something with us and they've been a part of
the community, um, you know, then we want to reward them for that.
And so then we give them stamps that they can put in their passport.
Um, so that they can prove that they've been there in the journey with us.
And so I think moving forward, you know, just continuing to try and make that as, um, seamless
as possible so that people enjoy the experience so that they want to be a part of the community.
Um, and so that they start to, um, really take pride in what they've done with us, you
know, uh, like, like everyone was saying more fun.
Now I just need my actual passport as an NFT.
Oh, it's coming.
If we could just mix those all together into my digital identity, um, we'll achieve the
final form.
I traveled out of the country recently and I saw a notice for that where it was like,
upload your passport into this app and then have it with you.
And I was like, Oh, here it comes.
Uh, well, I, Hey, I'm ready for it.
This is the future I'm waiting for.
Not, not the past few years, but this upcoming future.
I'm, I'm here for that.
Uh, we, we've got, we've got a final, um, candidate there that's, that's lacking.
You got to give me your, your frictionless moves from Animoca, my friend.
Oh, hello.
Yes.
Forget about you.
Well, thing on the Animoca from what, so our main objective is to, uh, onboard as many
people into web three, um, as possible.
And from a tokenomic standpoint, what we want to do is how do we, we think about how we can,
um, kind of attract these web two users, right?
So one way is to maybe give them these NFTs for free.
So, uh, lots of projects give rewards.
Rewards is the main pull factor, but you know, from a tokenomic standpoint, if you give, give
out too many rewards that just drives in a lot of speculators that come and go.
So in the longterm you get diminishing marginal returns.
So with these free NFTs, maybe people will be more incentivized to try it out because there's
less risk for them.
Um, so that's one way we try to, um, encourage.
So that's like giving out a free digital assets that could be, you know, uh, in, in game items
or, uh, maybe like small portions of, of land or a PFP whitelist.
Um, and another way is, um, I think building of what, uh, Shannon said on achievements in
your passport, there's the idea of soulbound tokens that we have implemented.
Um, so soulbound tokens are kind of like your on-chain reputation that cannot be changed
and that sticks with your, your wallet in itself.
And that makes users kind of be able to be proud of showing off their achievements and
know, knowing that I did not buy it.
So, you know, with, with POAPs, when you attend events, you can actually like sell your POAP
to someone else or sell these POAP certificates.
But if these things are soulbound, then it really follows you.
And that becomes your kind of web three identity, which builds into the new vertical of decentralized
identities and how we can prove ourselves, our reputation behind this, um, in this like
virtual world that we live in.
Yeah.
You guys see the MoonPay, MoonPay's launched soulbound NFT loyalty program.
I think I just read about that.
It was like, uh, earlier this month, they, like a web three passport, I think they were
calling it, but I believe it's soulbound.
I feel like I have to speak up a little bit since Animoca's head of tokenomics, Mohamed,
is helping us design a soulbound token.
Um, so playground where, yeah, yeah, it's super exciting.
So, um, on playground, like I said, we are, um, a web three social platform based on experience.
So everything from, you know, how you sign in to the community you join to what experiences
you're having, whether they're virtual or real life.
Um, that's, um, and then to the NFT ticket that stores those memories in the, like, you
know, who was there, what soundtrack was playing, like, what are the, it's almost like memorabilia
of the wristband that you take home after a festival.
Like, um, these are all, you know, like what you do says who you are.
So all of your experiences in summation really says about what you care about, right?
Like on social platforms, we can write our bio and say, I like hiking or I like art, but,
um, you can write that.
And that's, but when you're on playground and you're, you're doing the things we can see,
like, this is how many concerts you went to, or like, you're really into, you know, this
really niche ceramics class or techno music.
Um, and so how you play on playground, right?
Like if you run with Stepin, if you party with Bored Ape, all of that is play.
So play points are in platform rewards that because we have relationships to agencies and
brands like a platform, like Expedia, like the more you play, the more play points you
earn that can turn into travel rewards, something that people are familiar with.
So that the more you play, the more you get to play in real life and meet up somewhere else,
right?
It's about exploring and curiosity, but that's in platform rewards.
And that, um, and we think about like, what are the other kind of like badges or in platform,
um, NFTs that that can unlock based on what you do.
So we've been air dropping play cards, like, um, like what we mentioned before, for free
to all the people that came to our battle events, they came to the playground parties, and then
now we're surprising them with a play card.
And that play card might be like the two of arts or something.
But if you start collecting all of them, then maybe you get the queen of, you know, arts
and you start to like collect them and see what you unlock if you have a full hand.
So we're really gamifying, um, play by, by like people doing what they would do anyway,
which is like living their best life.
Um, and anyway, all going back to Soulbound Token, like ultimately there's an ultimate journey
everyone's on, which is you're, um, you're going and you're experiencing your own, you're
creating your own playground, right?
And, um, the Soulbound, um, token that we're creating on everyone's social profile is basically
a history of like who you've met, like what you've done along the way and like your memories
and like your NFT tickets.
And even if the rewards can be traded away, um, the, like your own experience cannot be.
And so that's something that you own.
And I think it's pretty deep.
So I'm, we're trying to like, even though we were talking about fun before, like playground
is fun, but, um, and like life itself is fun at the same time, it's like super full of
meaning.
And I think that's like what this technology is.
It's like you, you make it feel fun so that you can onboard everyone.
But at the end of the day, there's like super profound things we can build together with
this.
Right.
And I think that's, I mean, Soulbound Token itself, it's like, what is that?
Like I resonate with that word.
It's like super deep.
I was like, who named it, uh, Soulbound is a good name.
Um, yeah, actually I think that one's quite appropriate.
Like I feel something with that one.
Um, but I'm just saying like, we're creating new language as we go.
And I think, yeah, it's interesting what's resonating or not, but that's one that I feel
is, um, yeah, people get it.
Right.
So, and I think that's based on what you do.
Um, so it's like in its nature, very tied to experiences and what it can unlock, um, what
NFTs can unlock.
So it's all very, um, aligned.
And I'm glad that, and Mocha's designing it for us.
Cause it's gonna, it's gonna be awesome.
It's gonna blow your mind.
I think there's a lot more Soulbound tokens in our future.
I see more of that on the horizon.
Um, yeah.
So is Vitalik.
Yeah.
Go ahead, Zach.
No, I mean, like that's the first time I've heard about it when, you know, Vitalik was
using on, on like how that's gonna, you know, if it can be figured out in a way that,
you know, doesn't become a problem because you can see obviously where it could gunk up
a wallet if there were tokens you can't get rid of, um, or, you know, people could do stuff
that you don't want to your properties.
But, um, you know, it, it obviously has a lot of real.
They taint your soul?
Right.
You don't want to get tainted by some, some gross souls, but having something that is truly
like permanent, you know, token that gives you whatever utility it does.
And by definition, isn't speculative because you can't do anything like moving it anywhere
else, no matter how much someone offers you for it, it does open up a new way of interacting.
For sure.
Well, uh, I know we're a little bit over.
Um, if you guys want to stay for a little bit, we can take some questions if, if people
want to request to come up.
Um, otherwise we can leave you back to, uh, your Thursday and, um, hopefully people are
starting to make their holiday preps and putting the, crossing the final T's, dotting the I's
on their to-do list.
Um, yeah, uh, Danny, do we got any questions to come up on stage?
We can keep it open for a little bit.
No, we don't have any, anyone requesting to speak at the moment.
All right.
Well, if, if that's, that's it, um, we are going to sign off.
It was wonderful having you guys all show up today, huge audience out there.
I think we had 360 people plus showing and some great alpha, uh, here.
And I hope anybody who's still listening remembers NFT LA is going to be featuring some of these
brilliant thinkers and, uh, we'd love to have you out there.
So, uh, remember to mark your calendars for March of next year and come meet us all in
person so we can all, uh, get weird and talk about the metaverse.
All right, guys.
Uh, thank you so much.
It was really a pleasure hosting all of you.
Danny, did you have, uh, any sign off for us?
Just remember NFT LA is happening in March next year.
So remember to sign up for your tickets.
It's going to be wild.
And Zach, do you have any closing thoughts inviting people for NFT LA on March?
Oh, I mean, yeah, just what you said, it's going to be a fantastic time and we definitely
hope to see you there as well as many of the people you've, you've heard talking today.
Um, this is kind of what it's about.
Let's, let's work together, collaborate and be creative.
Um, let's get weird.
We're breaking boxes and getting weird.
Yeah.
We're not, we're not trying to lock anybody into anything and we're going to keep exploring
stuff even that makes us uncomfortable, like whether the, you know, the word NFT is, is
causing more harm than good.
Yeah, I'll be using it.
I, I, I, I'm too rigid now.
I can't break habit.
It's too late.
It's already cemented.
Yeah.
It's a little nostalgic.
It would be impossible to give up.
People are going to be like, uh, we're going to be those old fogies that call it the world
wide web.
And it's like, come on, dude, it's the internet.
Chill.
Exactly.
Thank you guys so much for having me.
This has been a blast.
All right.
Thanks everyone.
Yeah, this was wonderful.
Night, everybody.
Good night.
Thanks everyone.
Good night.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
