Hey, Mr. Producer, can you make okay perfect perfect all right Snorlax I'm gonna invite you up Ruby. I'm gonna invite you up as well brother
Is everyone able to hear me properly just doing a mic-juck testing test? Yeah, I do. Okay, perfect, perfect. We'll get everybody up here and then we'll wait about like two or three minutes to let the room filter in. I'm going to invite Nick as well. I see him here with the Chad photo.
Yo, y'all do us a favor, hit that like and retweet. Let's get this thing juiced out. This is gonna be a good one. I feel like excited. Let's go, dude. I've been waiting for months for this one, dude. Nick, I sent you an invite to speak.
Ruby, I sent you an invite to speak and also composability labs if you boys want to come up here. What a lot to have you in the conversations is some really good stuff we're about
produce here. Snarlacks just say something for Mike Creppis's brother. Yeah it's up can you guys hear me? Yeah you're doing good. Ruby you're able to hear us brother? Yeah I'm good.
Nick, you're going to hear us brother? Yep, I'll go to my side. All right, perfect, perfect. All right, we'll start in about two or three minutes. We'll let the room filter in and then we'll get started. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to come talk shop with us, man. Really excited for this combo.
Yeah, awesome. Likewise. Mr. Producer, you can go ahead and tweet the live link and tag Fuehl and all that stuff.
Composibility labs and you boys able to hear us testing testing Hey, yeah, good. We can hear you perfectly perfectly well Awesome awesome. Daukemis you have to hear us brother Yeah, good morning guys
Perfect perfect. All right, Mr. Producer at 105 roll the YouTube clip and then give me a thumbs up when I can give the introduction we can get started
If I'm a super producer, you can roll the clip now. Just give me the thumbs up when I can go ahead and give the intro.
Let's go on on everybody welcome to another segment of crypto world radio presented to you by because Bitcoin my name is Wabi and today we are joined by Nick founder of Fuel Labs and we're also joined by some other team Ruby we also have Daochemist premise and strong
and I want to give a shout out as always to the sponsor Crypto World Radio. We have Nullis Protocol up on the nest above and Nullis Protocol is a non-crisoidal crypto lending app with sustainable so economics and unique features for borrowers. It offers loans that are under collateralized with financing up to 150%.
without the risk of liquidation through its flee solution. So guys, this is a very special episode for me. I've been trying to get fuel on for the past couple of months and we finally got them. Really excited for the show and just to give you guys a brief heads up, this conversation will be uploaded onto our YouTube channel and a
Of course, you can catch it here on Twitter. Feel free to retweet the space so we can get more people informed about all things blockchain modularity and what fuel is doing, really excited to have them on. And fuel network is a modular execution layer for highly configurable rollups built on the fuel VM.
and sway programming language designed to overcome the limitations of the EVM architecture. And something cool that I find pretty interesting is that they are the first optimistic roll up on Ethereum for payments. And V2 also excites me as it's being developed as a fraud-proofable modular execution layer.
This way compiler provides a security and performance features such as safe math by default, re-enters you protection and built in hashing and cryptography. So I want to welcome you guys all on here. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come me up and talk in some shop. God bless you, your family, and your friends. Hope you guys are doing today.
So we'll start off with Nick man the man himself Nick. How are you brother? How are you feeling? Doing good feeling feeling great. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, and and thanks for thanks for hosting this. Yeah, it's really really great. Yeah, not an issue man love love love love to have you
up here. So Nick, before we get into the specifics of what you gentlemen are building over at Fuel, I want to get to know the man behind the project. And that's one thing that I like to emphasize on these conversations. Usually with traditional general discussions and AMAs, it's all about
Why are you guys building this? How is it being achieved? But I like to take a personal approach and have a general discussion around the narrative, right? So what I'd like to know, sir, is how did you come across the digital asset space and how did those roads lead to the inception of fuel?
Yeah, so I guess for me when I started in the space initially I got pretty interested in Ethereum and in blockchain. My dad started watching a lot of like Max Kaiser and stuff like that and he was just like obsessed with
you know, the alternate financial narratives and things like that. So he, I found a lot of crypto actually through that initially. And like in 2010 or 11, I started fooling around a little bit with the Bitcoin client, but it didn't really know what it's about.
You was in 2013, I started to go a lot more ham and to actually looking at mining and things like that. So I actually started with mining crypto in my basement. So I was running a bunch of rigs in Canadian, so I was shipping coal there.
into my house and you know like winter air and then heating some of my basement with with the mining heat. So that's actually where I started with with crypto. It's really hot down there. And then after that point, you know, I started to expand into looking at, okay, well could I build something with,
Bitcoin because I took a look at the actual mining code and it was, I mean, aside from just hashing, it wasn't really doing a lot. And that's when I started my sort of deeper exploration into crypto systems and how these things were working. And from that point, I wanted to actually build something. So I went on the Bitcoin
I basically said, when I expand the offer turn from 40 bytes to 1 megabyte, and then I had a bunch of Bitcoin maxis explode and basically tell me all the different reasons why they don't want that. And then someone flagged Ethereum.
at the end of that conversation and then my whole life basically shifted after that one person. So I started working with a very early, a very early community. Solidity was that version 0.6, I think when I joined the space. So I started to work with Solidity, I started to work with
of the early apps, you know, and I remember like on the Ethereum site there was 10 apps listed and at one point I had two of them. So I was up there and then you know started building that stuff out and then I joined consensus and
worked with them for several years doing absolute infrastructure with them. We wrote a bunch of libraries, did a bunch of things, and then sort of came to, you know, want to see a different reality for the space because I'd experienced throughout my time
So many issues with Ethereum's tooling or the way that things would work. I mean, when I started, we were working with this original client called AllitZero and that thing crashed all the time. I remember debugging something for three days and then they told me it was the client and not me. I just remember how that felt in the early days of Ethereum.
So, I've sort of been scarred and traumatized a little bit from the existing ecosystem and I think I wanted to see a different reality for what blockchain could really be. I think that blockchain has some incredible special properties and potential and I think that
And with fuel, we are trying to get as much of that potential out of the system as possible. And by doing that through, so looking at things in a different lens, most projects are in a place where they'll always build the thing that they think will get the most traction.
they're not going to necessarily build a thing that is the right thing to do. And so with fuel, you know, we take sort of a different approach where, you know, we're not afraid to build our own language or do our own virtual machine or design our own sort of user experience and user experience flows and try to shape a different reality for cryptic
So, and so, fuels very much about doing things differently and trying to get blockchain to a place where I think we all want it to be and not like sort of endless band-aids, patches, you know, 30 different toolkits and 20 different communities.
community projects building what could be one company's worth of tooling. Yeah. So one thing that I'd like to know from your perspective being a dev currently at the moment we have blockchain modularity, right? But in your own words, if you can put it as
Isn't is direct as possible. What is blockchain modularity and how does that benefit a front end user that has experience with these DeFi applications and all these other chains that really have no purpose in
existing, right? As you said, like we're reaching a point now where everything can be composed into one framework. So, would love to know in your words, what is blockchain modularity and how does that benefit the current users of the digital asset landscape?
Yeah, I would say that there's probably a few answers actually to how you would look at modularity. I wouldn't say it's necessarily just one. I think in the context of modular blockchains, you're looking at the concept of separating sort of execution from consensus and you're
looking at sort of a different approach to how you would want to construct blockchains at the layer one level. I think if you're looking at modularity from a broader ecosystem standpoint where you're looking at Ethereum and you're looking at what's going on in the roll-up space,
I think there's a lot of blockchains out there, but they're basically empty. And I think there's some reasons to why they're empty. They're empty because there isn't the necessary security properties to hold significant value. And I think what a lot of this modularity discussion centers around is building systems that
that basically allow value to form, but allow developers to create different kinds of blockchains and experiences for the developers and the users that we weren't able to do before. So with Ethereum in the whole roll-up landscape, we're able to create a multitude of different kinds
of execution layers on top of Ethereum. And with other different blockchains that are coming up in the space like Celestio or a veil in these other kinds of systems, you're looking at basically just a much cheaper, more efficient version of that that works a little better than Ethereum.
And so, yeah, modularity really can encompass a bunch of different things. It can also encompass as well a lot of different properties around how you construct these systems. If you want to construct a big, Lairone blockchain and go try to build a network around that, like you can, but we've sort of seen that story play out a lot.
Instead, if you build your system in a more modular configuration, it can sit in exist in different ways with different chains that already have big networks and lots of value and can actually just help them and help aid them in their journey to seek, I guess, more value or
more purpose. And so I think in a sense, modularity can encompass a lot of different things. But in the module of blockchain space, it has a specific meaning. And then in the general concept of modularity, it's also just building systems that are more usable and more places with more configurability
that ultimately will give the planet more value more bankier buck you know in terms of these these architectures yes yes yes so it's very interesting to know that you guys are building this new virtual machine right to overcome the limitations of the EVM value
that you were describing. So can you walk us through some of the features and benefits that the fuel VM might offer compared to your traditional EVM? And I also understand that currently at the moment you guys are building a V2 as a fraud-provable modular execution layer.
I want to come at this to the question of how does that approach differ from other L2 solutions such as maybe like an optimism or an arbitrary or maybe I think the other one is called a mantle or mantra something like that and what advantages does it offer for not only
does but also users. So kind of a two-part question there, brother. Appreciate you, man. Yeah, so basically for the PILVM, the main concept there is that the EVM itself just has a significant amount of baggage from when it was originally
design. So basically you can think of the EVM as like your first first instantiation of like a car. Think of the EVM like a Toyota and then you can think of the fuel VM as like a Tesla. And mainly this is this is
Because with EVM, particularly, they didn't know all the problems that they were going to face when they designed it. They knew some, but they didn't know all of them. And we've learned over the years how negative some of their design choices were.
ends up creating an experience for a user and a dev that is pretty perilous. So to name a few big differentiators, the first thing is the EVM has got a bid architecture that's really wide. This ends up being really, really baggy. It's got all these edge cases to certain op codes that create
all kinds of security vulnerabilities and they're not easy to navigate. The EVM is also really hard to navigate around when you're constructing really efficient programs. You don't really have a lot of options in terms of the op codes. The fuel VM ends up trying to solve some of these things by providing you better op codes
a more clever resource constraint design. So one that, again, like the EVM, for example, is really wasteful when it uses memory. Like if you call a contract, it creates a new memory frame. You can't look at the previous frame and this ends up meaning that you have to
The ultimate thing is the fuel VM will allow you to do things like full native account abstraction. The removal of things like a proven transfer from UX because we have scripts. It's a better bid architecture so it's 64 so it's more efficient. We have a revised memory architecture as well as a
we have things like multiple native assets, so each smart contract can emit its own kind of native asset, and that gives smart contracts the first class approach to tokens that we just didn't see with Ethereum, and you had to create ERC20s, and that ends up being really baggy and bulky on the processing side.
Ultimately, all of these changes mean that you can have a system that's incredible for, you know, again, value, both value stationing and value transfer in addition to doing all the kinds of behaviors we typically see with Ethereum.
you can do way more. So in a sense, the fuel VM is like EBM 2.0. It learns a lot from EVM and design lessons. It learns from Salana. It learns from Wasm. It learns from a bunch of different systems. And you end up with a system that, again, is just far better for doing just about everything.
So that's how I would describe the the philvm some EVM differentiators. So you guys are starting right off the bat with native assets. Sort of like how Thor chain is now doing like tradable native assets. So you guys are going right into that rather than you know do what some of these are
other newer products are doing, which is just copying, pasting the same framework, which is, okay, hey, let's just wrap these assets and then bridge them over to our chain. And as we learned when you have things like bridge security being very vulnerable, like we understand that just because it's a wrapped asset doesn't mean
that it's still the underlying asset. It becomes an asset to the to the chain itself. Am I correct on that brother? So you're sort of correct. I mean, basically, we still have a bridge to Ethereum. You can still bridge your tokens over your right in terms of the security implications of a bridge.
bridge, right? The bridge is going to end up being whatever the security properties are. If there's a multi-sig, then it's a multi-sig bridge, you know. But basically in terms of assets, so you can bridge all your Ethereum assets over. We have a general purpose message-bracing bridge like optimism and arbitrage.
So you can basically deploy your, you know, say, USDC and then you'll get a native asset on fuel at the end of the day that is a wrapped sort of like a wrapped USDC per se, but it'll just actually perform as a native asset. Now you can do other things as well, like you don't need to use that system.
do a bunch of other things. But the point is that you actually have a lot more flexibility, but it ends up being the case that if you bridge something like USDC over to fuel, you're going to end up with a wrapped, but native asset of that asset in fuels processing environment, and that's going to end up being
a lot more efficient when you're doing payments, when you're transferring that around, when you're trading, when you're doing all kinds of other activities. So you gain tremendous amounts of efficiency. Whereas if you do the traditional model of what we see with ERC20, it creates a lot of baggage. It limits the amount of scale.
you can achieve and it ends up basically being a wrapped asset that has similar scalability properties to what it came off of from Ethereum basically. God bless you, sir. That was an amazing response. I am incredibly bullish on what you guys are doing.
I'm going to throw in emoji. I posted some things for you guys up on the nest. For you guys in the audience, I posted a few things on the nest in regards to fuel network, including a recent space that they did with Spark, which is a UTXO order book. I'm going to ask this
one more question and then I want to open it up to our lovely speaker panel. But yeah, I want to throw this your way, Nick. First off before I ask this question, I want to tell you your profile picture is insane, dude. I love it. It's the chat that says yes. And one thing that I'm bullish on are developers that
understand pop culture and I'm a man of culture. So I wanted to ask you, sir, I'm curious about the decision to use the UTXO model that you guys are using for accounting and fuel. How does the model work as far as improving user app experiences and also some of the other benefits that it
has for the fuel network. Yeah, so UTXOs are really interesting. Initially with Blotchins, everyone picked an accounts model. Basically after Vitalik, I think really popularized it. And we started with UTXOs from
Satoshi and that kind of incredible Bitcoin design. And then we sort of gravitated towards more accounts model from that point. The thing is UTXOs, when they're used in a setting for fraud proving, end up being really interesting because you can basically
achieve very similar user experience to Ethereum, but you can do certain things that are state minimized. And what this means is you're going to end up paying a lot less, bloating with state a lot less, and making a more efficient blockchain. So similar to like Siri has like resources, for example, UGXOs are really cool because
When you transfer a UTXO or you create one the only thing you have to do on the processing side is basically Merkleize that UTXO into a block and so it's a very shallow small mercury It's not really that big and and when you spend it you just need to notate that
in a block. And the thing is this ends up being actually really, really beneficial because when you spend it, you can forget about it in state. So you could just prune it and it's gone forever. But secondly, with Ethereum, you end up usually having to have
massive giant state tree of every balance of every account and every time you have to do a transfer in a theorem you have to basically update this massive mercury and it's like you know I think it's like 256 depths or something like that and so every time you make a
for you have to update this giant tree and that ends up really costing you on the processing side. It's actually one of a larger costs on running a blockchain node in general. And they do this to retain like client proofing and a bunch of other things. But essentially, this particular property is really,
horrible with the accounts model. And it is sort of required for, you know, if you want to have, you know, decentralized blockchain, that's safe. And so, if you're in the accounts model. So the UTXO model is really, really light. If you transfer a UTXO or you do a trade with the UTXO, for example,
like you know, possibility labs here doing an order book exchange with UTXOs and predicates. If you do that, you end up transferring the asset or moving it around and when you go to the database, you set up having to update this giant virtual tree, you just make one update.
And then you update a very, very small market tree for the block and that's it. So it's a much better model on the processing side. That's going to end up on the user side of things being a lot cheaper. It's going to end up on the scalability side giving you parallel transaction execution, which is really critical to use
using all the threads and cores of the node CPU to process transactions, really important for scale. Ultimately, though, it just means that things are going to be cheaper, better, faster for everybody, developers, and users. And it just allows you to get closer to this reality of typically in the blockchain space
you say like a stateless sort of reality. It's just one more weapon a developer will have to do state minimize designs which end up being obviously more cost efficient, more scalable and just better for the blockchain space. So hopefully that answers your question. But UTXOs are just, they have some interesting properties and this is sort of one of
also joined by Composability Labs and they said there was some pretty interesting data about all things modularity stacks and we're also joined by team members, Norelax and premise and as usual as part of our daily speaker panel, Dow chemist. I want to open it up to you guys.
And also I want to encourage you guys to follow all the speakers here follow fuel and also feel free to follow us here because Bitcoin We're currently undergoing our modular blockchain series. It's an educational series that's going to be presenting some pretty cool teams that are going to be releasing some interesting products
over the next year or two. So feel free to follow us and turn on bell notifications so you can keep up with all of our shows. So I want to throw it over to some of our team members. So Snorlax, I know you're an on-chain sleuth. You love all things DFI. Brothers, I want to welcome you up, man. Thank you so much for coming up on here. How are you feeling, brother?
Hey, well, I'll be great to speak with you, man. I'm great to speak with the fuel team. Yeah, I just had a question for you guys because, you know, I love getting to learn about all of the projects that, you know, could potentially be carrying the torch for the next bull run. But I also love to learn about the teams because
in my experience, the most effective projects I've invested in and witnessed were the ones with the most effective teams. So I just wanted to know, what would you guys say sets the fuel team apart from other projects in addition to the fundamental value the project seeks to provide? Yeah, I would say with
with fuel, particularly in terms of our design motto and how we think about teams in general. I think it comes down to a good set of principles for our contributor base. So firstly, in terms of contributors,
We want to have a situation where the focus is on like the engineer over engineering. So we really value, I think, just basically how you would think about building a great system for developers. And engineering time is like a
key piece of this. So that's going to be the first principle, I would say, of building a good team and kind of building a team that ends up delivering something I think huge for the ecosystem. The second thing is basic
cherishing every every bite and every every computation. So this is like philosophically an imprinceable something that I think engineers need to focus on and what we focus on a lot with fuel. So really focus on efficiency and
as a group and collective. The last thing is, I would say, we really, really cherish basically developer experience over everything else. I think we want to create a system here where a developer is going to
love this and actually kind of want to be a part of something that again is going to deliver a kind of experience and a kind of result for the ecosystem that actually is sort of game-changing.
So on the team side, these are like our core kind of principles that we go into this with. The fuel like contributor base has a lot of different contributors from a lot of different backgrounds. We have a lot of people from embedded backgrounds, different backgrounds from compiling.
And, you know, as well obviously blockchain. I would say that like we have a big focus on our kind of general contributor base. And I think the goal for us too is to get to a place with a project where, you know, effectively all of that development can be decentralized and
away from the core founders and actually live and breathe on its own with the ideas we instill in them. But yeah, I'd say for our team, it's like, kind of crosses a lot of breadth across the board. But yeah, hopefully that answers your question.
Alright, we'll pass it all over to premise. Premise my man. How are you feeling man? Good to have you up brother. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good. Yeah, I guess you know I have some question at my depending on who's listening might be interested because it seems like you know this is amazing. I'm just not learning about fuel. Um, well yeah, where how is the investment
Where could people find where people are trying to invest in projects? How many new type of projects are you seeing being built around it? I guess that would be a question I would ask. Yeah, so I mean right now, we're pretty private on all of our finance related stuff obviously.
We've got we've got some critical support support from from some big players in terms of the ecosystem projects though and getting involved with them and getting excited I would say the big ones are ones that you know people like composability labs are building so you know, so the like spark border book I think it's gonna be amazing
So it's like the original name was the sway gangsters although I think that's a the makes and changes there The fuel let wallet I think it's gonna be awesome And and I would expect that I think with a lot of these projects there's some you know economic incentivization is gonna happen. So I think it's very much to come
case in terms of NFTs like their Thunder and then and there's a bunch of others too, pepper markets and a few others. On the deck side there's like elix, microchain, so these are some awesome projects
that are coming up, I would say in terms of what peaks my interest though the most, it's probably this UTXO based order book exchange where effectively you can have a giant order book exchange, just think of fuels all these UTXOs. A lot of those UTXOs because we support
or predicate some account abstraction can become orders in what is effectively a giant order system. And projects like Spark are going to leverage this by basically using UTXOs to their advantage and turning those into orders for an order work exchange.
So you can create all kinds of, you know, basically highly efficient, highly paralyzable order book systems using Puel. So this is like a really nice, I'd say, differentiator of Puel's architecture. And you can also pair that still with traditional AMMs that you
typically see AMM dexas. And so that pairing between basically ortho bookish changes, AMMs, and potentially as well, like hyper-efficient things like futures and perpetuals, I think will allow us to really demonstrate
the scale that we can achieve and the processing speed and really kind of showcase what fuels about. So I think that in terms of projects, hopefully it gives you a bit of a taste of the landscape. You definitely just get involved in terms of writing materials and checking out a bunch of our
stuff, I think helping the projects out with UX and user experience to make the products better. But I think for fuel, we're hoping to ship with a few really key anchor projects. And I think that that's really part of our strategy is to not have an ecosystem of
like 5,000 random projects that were made in some short period of time, but to launch with a few really good ones that sort of tackles some clear areas and again give a user a breadth of experience on fuel that covers most of the general cases of like lending dexas and fts
So, yeah, those are some projects to take a look at. Nick, I wanted to introduce myself to you real quick, man. I've been in the crypto industry since the summer of 2017 and my first experience with DeFi was using Uniswap in late 2019 and taking out my first
first loan in Ave during the COVID lockdown. And you know, experienced all the DeFi stuff, DeFi summer became full time in the industry after the Uniswap Air Drop and I've used everything on Phantom, A-Vax, all these other at once. And really, I would say the core
of protocols, one thing that I've noticed is that they're working to enhance the front-end experience for the user and also working things like liquidity fragmentation and all those things. So you know it's guys that are building on the modularity stack right and what you guys are doing is pretty bullish.
So I'm looking forward to it and you know speaking of Ave I do see that we have Nadir to beat from Ave So I'll bring them up to speak if you want to join the conversation man If you want to talk with Nick about all things modulary and what they're doing with fuel would love to have you I see some recognizable names here
here as well that are on the show. If you guys want to come up and ask Nick some questions, feel free to do so. Always love engaging with the broader communities. And I also see that Nadir is joined the conversation. Nadir, are you able to hear me brother? Hey, yeah, I just got invited up here. I can hear you good. Can you hear me?
Perfect man, you just had a beer good man. It's been it's been it's been a fun week hasn't it? Actually, um, thank you miss misunderstood. I don't drink
Oh, I thought you said you had a beer my bad brother, but um, yeah, welcome man if there's anything that you want to say feel free to do so man. Sages are yours brother
I'm just been really enjoying listening to Nick and hear a little bit more about some of the background and stuff of
So, fuel, even though I've been working with people, I've been off for the past six months. I'm now kind of experimenting.
I think you're covering your mic brother. You're covering your mic Having some connection issues on your arms brother
Okay, yeah, just some slight connection issues brother, but yeah man good to have you up man good to have you up We'll circle right back to you man, but Dow Dow can
I'm doing great and it's a great conversation and there's some background noise about that.
I love this conversation. You guys start on modularity and I think it's a very interesting topic. And I hear in the conversation, right, there's a, I think there's two conversations happening, right? There's what are the benefits for developers and then what are the benefits for end users, right? And so when we get into the technicals,
For end users, right? Nick you touched on that right you get probably like cheap recession and maybe even more Secure as a future layer From some of the development point of view, right I'll be curious to To hear what type of of developers you seem to be interested in
by a few because you mentioned YouTube XO, obviously you have your own sway language, it sounds like it's like a substitute of rust, so it looks like from the outside looking in, it might be like, "Oh, the developers are looking at all of the term optimism with layer 2's in module 11 general, maybe you should say them
But then like everything you mentioned about Sparks for example and the older book decks it sounds like you also might get interest from the Solana developers might be a little bit like Jated and looking for a rust-based alternative that still give them like little latency I know them sure there's a rate
developers, but could you maybe like touch on like the a few types of developers that seem to be really simply building on top of your laps? Yeah, I mean, I think it's developers that so I think there's sort of a situation in the current like in the EVM development space where
Developers can sort of do what they want to do, but ultimately they're constrained by scale, they're constrained by the complexity of just using the EVM and trying to get around all those problems. And quite frankly, I think they're sort of tired of just
what it's like to develop on Ethereum. Ethereum devs are people that definitely come to fuel and are in a place where they go, "Well, I just want to use something different and I want to use something that's more comprehensive." Fuel gets to have a big benefit there with Ethereum.
Devs where once you kind of cross the bridge a little bit, you start to have a different take on what Web3 development can be. And I think, again, our more vertically integrated, Apple-style approach to doing this is the way that we're going to get there for them.
In terms of other devs, I would say the Salona devs and the Sui and Aptos devs are definitely people that they're the ones doing a lot of the building right now. I know even Vitali and his team are coming from that world.
As much as those chains are interesting, there's an interesting design space. I would say that a lot of them are either fed up with the developer experience at Howis Salana, or they don't quite feel that the movie ecosystem is something
thing that is going to give them, I would say both the closeness or the ability to get closer to the EBM and Ethereum, but also just the ability to, I would say write the kinds of like flexible programs you want to write.
is much more flexible as a language because it much more closely emulates rust than sort of like the move language and the interpreted language. So ultimately sway gets a huge sort of win for just being a really flexible blockchain language that
learns a lot from solidity, it doesn't forget about that, but can basically attract your sort of rough step from Salana, it can attract your sort of, you know, the person who wants a different kind of experience from Sui, and as well the developer from Ethereum that just wants a different
kind of system altogether. I think there's a lot of people that are pretty fed up with the the the the status quo, even with some of these other systems or newer layer ones. Yeah. Can you all hear me now? Yeah, we can hear. I figured out this one because
That's one of the things that I'm really liking about fuel. It feels like with a lot of the other ecosystems out there, everything is kind of band-aid together. One particular piece of the stack is built to maintain by a team and then another one is maintained and built by another.
and they all try to come together, whereas it feels like with fuel, everything is integrated together with everything in mind from the same team. So you have a CLI tool that allows you to scaffold and test and deploy contracts, and it's all integrated
with the same team that's actually built the language sway where you're able to write rust and it feels very expressive and it's really nice and they even have like touch good libraries for front end developers and everything just works really well together so the developer experience I think does definitely set it apart.
Thanks for having that just one more question people have looked at fuel have probably seen a very famous table Where fuel can play in the the marginal architecture, right? I'll post it in this but it's like you have obviously like different use case right you have the date
availability, you have the consensus, you have the settlement and execution. I kind of like the four module of how you would divide a blockchain. And what's interesting is in the use cases where fuel can be the execution layer and maybe some time the settlement, in the graph at least it's always combined with Celestea. So
Can you have a fun question? Are you guys almost like the dynamic duo of modular executions? Are you guys working together on not necessarily selling but on explaining how modularity can work out for developers? Yeah, I would say that we definitely as we were both
starting out similar times, there's definitely a lot of shared sort of ideas and values between the projects in terms of building modular systems that can exist in many different configurations. And I think the main idea there is is, you know, you want to
build architecture that can exist in many forms and in many spots. If you're talking about Celestia, you're talking about, "This is going to come with its own security properties, pros and cons, but it's going to give you a different kind of price efficiency
scale, a different kind of system that you might be looking for if you're building a big financial application and maybe you don't need Ethereum's decentralization security. Maybe you need something a little less and maybe that's what you're looking for.
Whereas when you're in a modular setting, it also means that fuel can exist on Ethereum, and it can exist to basically have settlements and data availability just posting to Ethereum is normal. And so fuel can exist in many different places.
in many different configurations and that's kind of the value out of doing this is all of the architecture is designed to live in many different places in many different ways and ultimately the sum total of all that you know
Depending on the deployments and where they're at is sort of the sum total of what the fuel network will be about is again focusing on really good vertical integration, focusing on a blockchain that works from the UX backwards to the technology and focusing on a blockchain that
will have many, many blockchains. And that will basically be able to sort of meet the needs of developers in many different ways. And I think that, again, an added benefit of building things from the start is you can have that purview. So you can do things like design
you're blockchain to be really good for light clients, which is something that Ethereum didn't really do. And when you get to have that added benefit, then bridging between all these different instances becomes a lot easier. Creating all kinds of different ways to interoperate these
different execution layers, becomes really, really simple. So fuel gets this big, you know, sort of plus or bonus in being able to live in all kinds of different places in many different ways. But some total of all that is the fuel network.
Awesome, man. Nadeer, is there anything else that you wanted to add, brother?
Now I just underscore the integrated DX and how powerful it is. And I think the main thing that as a developer that you want is the ability to experiment and interact quickly. And that means being able to kind of
China things, test them out, and then trust something new after that. And being able to build quickly is super important for that. And I think that when you have everything working together, it just makes it a lot easier.
Awesome man, we'll listen. Hopefully in the future we can host you chads over at Ave or Lens Protocol up on the spaces. You're more than welcome to come up on the stage in any time man. And yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to come on up here.
huge fan of what you guys do and I appreciate all the stuff that you and Stony have done for the DeFi industry and I'm looking forward to all the developments coming out on your end. But I want to pass the
Mike over to Ruby since he hasn't really spoken the entire time but Ruby my man I want to welcome you up sorry for the delay this is a big speaker panel but I want to kind of give you the mic for a bit and I'd like to know your insights
on your thoughts on all things blockchain modularity and sort of how you see the modularity thesis come to pass over the next coming years brother. I want to welcome you up once again man and God bless you.
Sure, thank you for the one welcome. So yeah, I don't feel like more than a year ago, believing that blockchain is not meant to be a one-chain industry and more a multi-chain world where we can find synergies between all blockchain
And yeah, basically right now blockchain is used by a very few people and if we want to scale the message then we need to find more like scalability solutions to feed the whole world basically. So yeah, I'm very excited about what we're doing at few.
And yeah, that's why I joined in. I hope that the projects that are joining us in building fuel will be revolutionizing the way we see blockchain in general and maybe bring tons of more users to the space.
Awesome, so I do have one last question to ask Nick before we wrap up here and again I want to thank everyone for participating up on these spaces where with fuel network team and I posted some things on the nest for you guys in case you want to check
I've also invited some of you up to speak if you want to come up and engage in the conversation or ask Nick any last minute questions. So before we wrap up brother, I'm interested in learning more about the role of light clients and fuels architecture as far as how they enhance the chain security guarantees and also
So would like to know how fuel would ensure that they don't create centralization or scalability concerns? Yeah, so you know, basically from the get go, we had the opportunity to build our architecture to be really configurable for like clients.
And this is really, really important when it comes to bridging. And bridging ends up being sort of your huge, you know, basically a massive topic when you're trying to deploy many things like many rollups or many different execution environments and really, really comes into
play at that juncture. It also comes into play for things like fraud proving, but I would say it's even more important for bridging. And the reason why it's important is because a light client really gives you a sort of high level cryptographic perspective of where a chain is at. And if you're a light client, you know,
system is particularly complicated to implement. You really can't do like client proofing or like client based bridging very easily between execution layers. And so this ends up really causing you a lot of issues when you're building bridges because you end up having to do a bunch of really sort of
nasty things like you need to implement all kinds of weird workarounds to implement the client proofing and bridging or really complicated messaging protocols. And as we've seen, these things are really subject to break and blow up.
That's like a huge issue in just the bridging space. And so, you know, when you have the opportunity to re-architect a system, then you can really configure it for light clients. And that's what Fuel did. And what this means is, is you can build bridges between things like two fuel execution
layers and if they share the same DA, you can actually just introspect each other's state because they share the same data availability layer. And then you can actually do a bridge between each execution layer without having some kind of weird sort of third part
somewhere with a multi-sig or some kind of more trust oriented design. So you can create what we call trust minimize bridges. There's some memes around this because there's a lot of different classifications of what trust minimize really means.
In terms of the way I approach it, it just means that it's reducing or further reducing the risk profile of doing things like bridging. So fuel is actually excellent at doing bridging between itself and should be pretty easy to do certain kinds of bridging between other chains. And this is especially important in the module.
are blockchain space because you are going to share things like the same data availability layer and that ultimately means for certain execution layers that bridging is going to be a lot easier. It also means too building things like shared sequencing between all of these networks is also potentially a
easier because you can really derive where things are a lot better. And so all these things end up being particularly important, I'd say. Yeah, but that's sort of the roundup of like clients or trust minimize like clients and to the modular space. Beautiful man. Beautiful.
Beautiful. Uh, Dalchemist. Is there anything that you want to add before we start to wrap up any statements, any questions for Nick or Ruby? Feel free to go ahead brother. It was a pleasure having you up. Yeah, just thanks. It's a great conversation. You guys have some great question and we have some great answers on the shooting.
lab. So I just think that whole modular space is exciting and those conversations are important right because those are technical details that sometimes goes over the head of the end user but it's to the benefit in terms of you know the fees the security so hey I love those conversations great job guys.
Awesome, man, awesome. The deer is there anything that you want to add or ask Nick before we wrap up the space brother? No, that was a great space. Thanks for having me up. I'm on a couple of telegram groups with fuel people. So if I have any questions I can always ask them.
Awesome brother awesome hopefully you can come up on the stage one of these days man would love to know your background and what lens and avay are up to on a deeper basis bro so God bless you man for coming on up bro it was truly an honor and quite a surprise to see you up in
the crowd. That's a really cool thing about 200 spaces guys. You never know who you're going to run into. You might go into a small space and then you know a dev from Arbitra might be there or someone from a cool D5 protocol that you've seen.
So really bullish on devs that participate on these Twitter spaces and engage with the community. I sort of think is Twitter spaces as this online virtual summit, right? And I say that because when you go to a conference, the per size is typically a couple of thousand dollars
when you include Roman board, your ticket, and also your flight. And when you go on these events where your favorite dev or community thought leader participates in, it's typically in a crowded place. You can barely hear anything.
There's no meeting greet and they only have due to five minutes of mic time right where there's a Twitter space It's more engaging and you know you can be brought up and interact with a team that has you excited so really bullish on you guys over at over at fuel network
I want to thank Nick for participating up on here brother. I hope you had a blast and you know I'm looking forward to speaking with you again But premise norlax if there's anything else that you want to add if you want to add guys feel free to throw it at Nick's way man. So I actually have anything brother
Now I'm good, Wabi. I appreciate the conversation and you guys giving your time and availability. Love learning about fuel and yeah, excited to continue learning about it in the future and stay posted on you guys. Awesome man. Primus, does there anything else that's
You want to throw at Nick's way or at Ruby's way before we close up? No follow follow them and yes, very interesting do keep doing some research. I got some web pages already for the appreciated Awesome, and you know I posted a few things up on the nest for you guys as well and Nick last question would be I
So what is the Q3 looking like for you guys and also what's the best place to interact with the community and keep up with all things regarding fuel? Yeah, so I would say for Q3 we have a lot of exciting stuff planned. We're gonna have a new
user experience, importal coming out. I think it will definitely set the bar for how a watching user experience should go. I'm really excited about that. That's going to use a lot of account abstraction. If you have a Mac or an iPhone, you could use secure enclave.
right out of the box with that. So that's going to be really cool. As well, I think from the user experience side, looking towards, you know, again, cheaper, faster transactions, as well, looking at gaseous transactions, native meta transactions, as well, a lot of like multi-file
factor experiences that we're going to put out. So I think on the user side, you're going to see a lot, definitely on the ecosystem side, order books, etc. All that stuff is coming together. In terms of the protocol, definitely stay tuned for Q3. I think Q3 is going to be pretty, pretty
So yeah, that's what I'll say about Q3. And then in terms of following us and just kind of keeping track of the project, just the, if you're doing technical research or all that sort of stuff, the forms, you get a place for that. If you're doing technical research or all that sort of stuff, the forms, you get a place for that.
just wanting to chat, discord, probably the best. And yeah, if you're so fortunate, make a few good tweets or some research or interesting angles, you might find yourself in some of our more private telegram groups and stuff. We just kind of go over everything fuel.
Yeah, that's sort of the lay of land and then as well, you know, obviously, or Twitter. And yeah, we'll also be at ETH Lisbon. We'll be at a bunch of the conferences so you'll probably see us around. And yeah, I would just, I would just say just expect, again, better UX and DEVX. That's
our main focus, that's the hill we're dying on and we don't care about all this other stuff that's going on the space. We just want to build the absolute best thing and that's what we're here to do. Awesome dude, I posted something that
Ruby put on the comments. I put up on the Nest the Forum for Fuel Network and also you guys' Discord link. So appreciate you brother for taking the time to come in on up and talking some shop, giving your background and talking about all things fuel and modularity and L2s and all things the
I want to give a shout out to our speaker panel, Dow Kamis and Premis and Snorlax as well as of course Nadir from Ava and Lens Protocol. If you guys enjoyed this conversation, my name is Wabi. I host these spaces all the time with devs and founders from exciting projects that
I'm quite excited to interact with over the next year or two. And once again, this space is being recorded not only on Twitter, but also via our YouTube. And same thing goes with all of our other shows. We'll have a later show today at 4.5.
15 p.m. Eastern time with Snorlax and premise and we also have the boys over from Phantom, spooky swap and also equalizer later on today at 7 p.m. Eastern time and we also have Saga XYZ tomorrow at 7 p.m. Eastern time and yeah feel free to follow us to keep up with our show
and our guests and all those things and also follow Ruby, Nick to follow what they're doing in regards to the modularity system and how fuel fits into that and like Nick said, if you write some cool research articles or some threads you never know you could end up being in a private
Telegram chat to discuss all things fuel and the sway-lang programming language So feel free to follow us guys here because Bitcoin every follow counts and turn on bell notifs and Nick I look forward to having you and some of the other team members back here on the show over the coming months. It was really
It's really exciting and informative to speak to the man himself that came up with the idea and the man behind the vision, right? We can read as much as we want on a project. We can read as many threads as we want, as many articles, see as many videos, but absolutely
Absolutely nothing will ever ever beat the experience of actually speaking to one of the founders one on one in a broad community space. So God bless you brother from the bottom of our hearts here because Bitcoin we appreciate you man and Yeah, thank you so much for for being so open and descriptive about what it is your building man. I feel
You know, I appreciate how you guys are building and building despite what's being heard around the world about the economy and all those things. I feel like innovation will always be innovation and
the Proof is in the pudding, then you know we're going to make some nice pudding and I like some pudding. I actually like a swirl. I like vanilla and chocolate with some Oreo cookie pieces. So speaking about that, I'm going to go ahead and eat a steak and probably have a quick workout. I'm going
some chest, some incline barbell bench presses, some flat dumbbell bench presses, some bicep curls, some lap pull down, some barbell rows. And yeah, you guys have fun, take care of yourselves. Health is wealth and I hope that this space was educational and informative about all things
Blockchain modularity we'll be having some more projects building around that ecosystem But if you want to keep up with that feel free to follow us here because Bitcoin. Thank you guys so much We'll see you at 4.15 p.m. Eastern time with market talk take care and God bless you Awesome thanks for having me