Hey, what's up, Joe? You should be able to speak now. Hey, Groken, you hear me, okay?
Yeah, yeah, can you hear me? How can you hear me? Yeah, you coming at me?
Who else do we need to make speaker here?
Unique Deweyne should join us from Nibiru team.
Alright, we have Nibiru Chin as a speaker here. Hey hey. Hello, hello.
How are we doing? How are we doing?
Pretty good. - Coral, can you go ahead and make a Brianis speaker as well?
New Bureau of Chain are you allowed to dox yourself and share your name so that I don't have to call you New Bureau of Chain. Oh, this is unique. Yeah. Oh, beautiful. Okay. Awesome. Hello, unique. Hello.
Hello. Anybody else on your own coming? We have Jonathan here. It looks like I don't know if he wants to speak. We can give him a crew you want to give him the option.
Hey guys, thanks for having me. All right, we're gonna get admitted to get started. Joe, while we're kind of going through that, do you want to do a little background on Alpha Growth and then I'll jump in after the Alpha Growth talk and then talk about
You know unique and a little bit of Niveroo and the will kind of jump into it. How's that sound? Sounds great. Yeah, so we are we're the AlphaGo team. We are helping the next thousand teams get get great
and in crypto and find the ready good systems to launch with and go multi-chain all that good stuff and we help different ecosystems with you know anything from infrastructure to tokenomics and sourcing cool
developers and the next top narratives and a lot of alpha. And yeah, I think that's pretty much on our end if you guys want to chat a little bit unique about who you guys are.
So, Nibir's team is comprised of backgrounds and a mixture of Web2, Xtenderman and other projects in
Cosmosiretherium, like in my case, worked on similar A before this. Personally, my background is more in ML, but obviously as of late, it's been a ton of blockchain for the past two years.
You want to give a little background on yourself, sir? Yeah, happy to. I joined the team recently and I previously worked in...
I worked in New York in equity research for Credit Suisse and then I worked in TMT Invest in Banking at JP Morgan and I moved over to San Francisco and worked with the GI C, the Singapore Sovereign Law Fund. So I did a mixed adventure in growth equity investing work.
covered crypto and fintech. I actually met Unique at ETH Denver, I think two years back, sat on a couch and just happened to get along with him. We did a hackathon together, so it's been an exciting journey since
So you're the guy that messed up all of credit Swiss and it's all your fault, right? That's exactly me, but don't put me on record saying that Yeah, you know my background working working with unique was like was rad and some that's where we met and then
We have the infamous desert walk of and I gotta say dude like you you have a Co-founder there and a partner there that that dude I would I would launch a company with man. He was Dude there was a couple people you can understand
How much there weren't like there were there were the persistence and they're like you know and unique was one of those people that I would I would take on you know any adventure and I just want to throw that out there that It was a route experience cool, but let's get into your your project like
You know, generally it's really good to say like, okay, who needs another blockchain, all this other type of stuff people ask. I was like, now why did you choose? I'm super curious why you chose chain versus DAAP. And then kind of what problem that you're solving that you guys got excited about that you wanted to tackle.
Sure. So as for chain versus depth, one aspect of it is I think kind of some of this goes into like, why do you build an SDK module versus
is just launching, say, an Ethereum or Cosmoleism smart contract. And that really just goes to low level, like, control of very specific parameters that are like
like you can't edit on Ethereum, like you don't get to begin an end block hooks. And so essentially there are advantages we get on more specifically for like the Purp 6-Change and Oracle Module that would be kind of impossible to build on Ethereum. So it's like we needed that level of control of the stack.
Then, as for the problems we're solving, so it's a few things. One would be the removal of complexity from having too many tokens. For example, we're developing custom duration bond of the Quity Gages for the SPOT AMM. We're users can essentially just
lock longer to increase their external token rewards on top of an LP position. So since Nebys already the governance and staking token, it already acts as a sort of V or voter Eskra token. In effect, this means you don't need to use convex V curve and ETH. You crunch them down into one thing as Nebys.
A second point would be aligning. That's a lot, dude. There's like two things that are giant muscles. All right, so let me try to speak it back. Do you couldn't with the current stack and the current tech available within ETH or within SK?
There wasn't enough fine-tuning parameterization to get the juice out of the chain that you needed to build the DAP you wanted to build. Exactly. Now you just combine four different concepts in this token. It's a gas token, it's a governance token.
like a VES grow, can we break that down more because there's a lot embedded in there? Yeah, so if you kind of just think of it this way, when you lock, so you LP on curve and then you can lock the LP position to gain
additional CRV and you do so by using your voter escrow curve. On us, most of the analogous thing is you lock into the gauges and there's three different fixed durations you can choose. So it's essentially like if you found a middle ground between those two things where you can continue
lock up to some max duration, except so you can scale your rewards like you do by locking longer on curve, except it's just a normal reward of knee-b like it is on osmosis. So there's like, it's a little bit more choice there, so why I bring up the voter
aspect is just you get that for free with Cosmos. So if you're using your staking token as the reward emission then you already can use it to vote. That's kind of what I was getting at. Are you voting on a particular gauge? Are you voting on a perp position? What are you voting on governance? Are you
doing the gauge and the emissions all through governance. Oh, that was just a, I mean, that's kind of generic. I don't know, like, I don't know if we would have gauges like curve. It's just that you do get more of a voting token for locking longer. That's kind of the problem. Yeah. All right. So like normal staking has
like a certain bond rate and are you guys doing like multiple bond rates? There's nothing like that in the roadmap right now. Okay. Alright, so more fine tuned control on the perpetuals and when we talked in September this past year, what you were just
describing his new type of D5 primitive that you're launching with your chain the perpetual and you try to explain it It was loud. There was lots of music and I'm like, dude, I've never heard anything like this So I want to I want to dive into your your your perps positioning and what you're working on because It has massive potential, but I want to I want to hear it again
So I guess the crunch down simple version of it of the perpetual of Nebie purposes. It's a perpetuals exchange with AMM based price discovery, which would be similar to like
perpetual or perpetual protocol or drift, right? But you can support any cosmos native pairs in addition to external ones like e. Spicoyne or even doge or something. And eventually all of it would have these improvements of automatic marketing.
good operations for repagging, swallowing the liquidity and even for performing liquidations that are fully automatic. So there's actually a lot to unpack there. I guess I'll kind of focus on the
the liquidation aspect. So this is an example of one of the ways you can improve the economic efficiency and safety. So the idea with that feature rollout is that you basically make the liquidation fidelity perfect.
because you remove the external agents that normally call liquidations. So we'll have a white paper coming out on that, because it's kind of its own little, well, not little, but it's its own product suite on top of the perps that essentially the chain itself tracks and executes the liquidations.
So to my knowledge, it doesn't exist anywhere in the defy derivative space. And it offers several advantages. Like you, you know, it's the protocol is more stable in volatile price regimes because it's less stress and risk on the insurance fund. If, because if there's not a human agent involved, it's not going to miss a position.
So it's less likely to create bad debt in the first place, but also it's a little bit easier on the users because if your partial liquidations de-leverage you faster It's harder to get fully liquidated so you'll lose less money So but it have like normally in these kind of like with issued liquidation
kind of cascading mechanisms. You kind of want a person in the loop that will be there so you don't kind of like pull the rip cord and you have this like like falling, falling, falling, falling crater event where the liquidation starts to put cell pressure onto the, now how do you guys prevent that?
if it's all automated. I think in some way that happens from like you have cascading liquidations if you catch some of them late because a lot of times what you're kind of describing I think is when there's one large juicy position that people are watching for that they think we'll get liquidated soon but that
Because you need to pay a lot of attention to that like whale position There's not as robust tracking on all the other ones. So like a good way to put this is like how one of our other engineers kept in describes it is like It's as if you had a it's a morbid example
But it's as if you had a room of people and the price at which they would get liquidated is like their height. And if you just track the water level, you know when somebody would drop without paying specific attention to anybody, as long as you store them in order of height in the key value store.
So what you're saying is that because you're liquidating less or often based upon the perpetuals in the way that you guys, because it's not just kind of like one giant liquidation, you can kind of, it's not like a
I should have said it like that. Yeah, instead of, and so, so part of the problem that we've seen stuff like, you know, Tara and Kajera and these types of things is that and kind of tracking what they had, if the liquidity
externalized liquidity where they're liquidating this thin, then it can create that cascading effect too. Like, how are you guys managing that? I think you said before that there aren't kind of like external parties on this, so how is that managed?
or external pools to the liquidate into.
Yeah, so it's basically Part of if you think about that is normally why you don't do this is Let's say there's 10,000 or a hundred thousand or however many positions on your exchange and if you need to know when they would get liquidated you have to look at
they're maintenance or will their margin ratio? Like, essentially, how much debt do they owe relative to the amount of margin they put into the position? And so every time someone trades and basically every block and also funding payments factor in
this, everybody's margin ratio changes. So if you were, you can't just query all the positions every block because that's, it's too much network trap, like it'd be ridiculous. So usually you store a ton of information, like the external liquidators store a ton of information in an off chain DB.
And then kind of have some like foresight of which positions are close to the border and then pay more attention to those so that they're not missing it like, you know, they have to come up with their own algorithms basically to do this, but you can just keep the positions in the store in order
of who gets liquidated first and actually use the price as the key. This is kind of like a technical explanation of it. But if you do that, you can effectively grab all the people with exact fidelity every time as your beginner and block hook.
And obviously you can like sort rank based on who's next and then do that comparison so you don't have to Scroll the whole entire index you have indexed and you know optimize for who's next on the chopping block Exactly Interesting and so you're you're taking you're taking lip so
stuff that maybe Cajura or some of these other liquid daters may have done off-chain. And because you have enough access and availability to manage it on the chain at a lower level, you can sort order and sort rank these things and then do it on your own chain. Yeah, so that's like, you know.
as transparent as it gets. Also, you don't have to compete for your transaction. If they're, let's say the block only has a certain number of transactions that will go through in some huge crisis scenario. Like, let's say it's the U.S.T. collapse or something. If your liquidators are competing
I see that as an attack vector. But if the chain just does them as part of the binary, like they're not competing against other people to submit the liquidations. They just say it happens. Yeah. Yeah. So you limit front run risk and MV type of.
Objections, right? Or attack vectors? Yeah. This is uniquely done, I think, because we run our own Layer 1 blockchain, whereas other Perps products aren't vertically integrated, so they can't do the same feature.
Right, which brings up enemy V-risk and front-run risk.
on the liquidation aspect, right? Yeah. So this was like a super long-winded answer to your why do it on Cosmos? Because it doesn't work otherwise, right? Or it would work less efficient. It would be less capital efficient. Yeah. Or specifically, like I couldn't
do this on ethereal. There's just not the same flexibility. Or you'd have to build your kind of like prioritization of your liquidation module in an off-chain manner. All this logic thing would need to be stored off-chain. Exactly. And then you could get standard way of doing it. Right. And you could get front-run.
and have MMEV and then all these other potential issues. All right, that's rad. Cool, I get it, dude. This is super cool. You're building an on-chain primitive, and the reason why you built the chain is because the current chains wouldn't allow you to
be more concentrated on the user and more fair and people could kind of have consensus slippage. That's what I call MIV. It's like the slippage in the way so they could front run some of these things. And by doing it your own chain, you remove all of that risk and so that people are going to have a better experience versus, you know, somebody playing inside baseball, moving blocks around.
I think another key aspect of this is combining different primitives to feel like one application even if they're separate. So in the case of large centralized exchanges, like Binance and well formally FDX, there is
offer in a varied and robust product suite, like where you have access to in all one UI, future spot, leverage, OTC, margin trading, lending, etc. and cross margin, right? Like all in one place. So the obviously we can't launch with
all of that at the same time or even like that's a long term vision but we're aiming for something that feels like trading on a centralized exchange while remaining like super like truly decentralized and transparent. That's like the core idea I think.
I have a question. I think Brian's going to really appreciate this to hear your opinions on this, but curious what you think about ICS and Neutron.
Sure, so just to like recap for people listening so I see as that like you're in a chain security is the method for one blockchain to inherit economic security from another blockchain so in the context of Cosmos where you we kind of use security through a third
the stake and slash risk at the same time. So my take on this, I guess so. One thing I see us will likely do is help grant Adam, like the Adam token and the Adam Staker, like Adam more utility and scale the cosmos hub. So it also
So it also helps the cosmos stick to one of its core value propositions, which is horizontal scalability. So in one model, the same validators that can produce all of the blocks for two different chains. So it sounds like this is the approach that is happening with neutron, which will support permission
If you have more blocks, like if you have more chains, but I think that the pros outweigh the cons pretty substantially. I particularly like that ICS in general supports the infinite scalability narrative. That was in the Cosmic