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FYI Ep 66 🔋 by WireNetwork: DeAI -Infra + Beyond + $250 from Toshi.Bet
Recorded: May 27, 2025 Duration: 1:07:03Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion on decentralized AI, key players from the crypto space explored the importance of partnerships, user-friendly applications, and the need for a unified approach to drive adoption. The conversation highlighted the Wire Network's role in enhancing interoperability and the growing trend of integrating AI technologies into blockchain applications.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Oh my god, make the music stop.
What's up?
Invited you, Ben. Invited you, Wire.
How's everybody doing?
Hello. Hey, man. Invited you, Wire. How's everybody doing? Hello.
Hey, man.
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
I am okay.
I'm okay indeed.
I'm in a cabin in the woods.
I was going to say, you sound a little different.
You sound like you're on the AirPods, not the mic.
Yeah.
You sound fine, though.
Is that okay?
Am I all good?
Yeah, you sound good. You sound fine, though. Is that okay? Am I all good? Yeah, you sound good.
You sound good.
So I'm in a cabin in the woods because it's a friend's 50th birthday this week.
Nice.
So there's a whole host of us.
There's like 20 of us down here.
And it's really nice.
That's awesome. I've just had the most exceptional curry with samosas and barges and
papadams and chutneys and salads and oh my god hell yes really good sounds
amazing so it's real nice so it's 7 p.m. here I've got like an hour really at
the most like I'm pretty fixed today in terms of
time. Yeah, well, I am
as well, so let's do a brief
run through and then jump
into it. We got Logris, I know, has to
leave at 11.30, so
I think we want to jump into the whole thing.
He's not here yet. Oh, no, there he is.
There you are.
I always like it when Logris comes up, because
he's
full of opinions and he says it as it is.
He's a fun contrarian.
I love it.
I agree.
Hey, Logris.
How are you, man?
It's been a while.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
Logris, do you want SETI up here too?
I don't think so.
Okay.
I think that's uh crystal our community manager
and she's just probably listening well if they want to request and come up i'm going to get
people to follow people so you're very welcome uh i'm having a look now who are our other speakers
too i put them in the run of show do just to make sure we got them so we've got Blockchain Ballot, we've got Logris, Tad Looney, Mike Casey, and D. Johnston EC.
Yeah, David's up here, and then Doug had one more.
Hey, David, how you doing, man?
I'm good, brother. Going to see the Star Launch right now.
Oh, wow! Really?
I'm about four hours away from South Padre, so it should be fun.
Hell, yes.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Have you ever been to one of those, Doom?
I've never seen it.
No, I never have.
I want to do it, though.
Yeah.
Oh, David, take pictures.
Yeah, take video.
Take pictures, please.
Oh, man, I will.
It's just incredible to see in person.
It's just nuts to see a 400 foot rocket go off absolutely love that absolutely love that hey two feet how
you doing man you're good what's up guys how are you good how are you good. I have a dirty joke of what David said, but I'll keep it to myself.
Hit me in the DMs.
Hit me in the DMs.
I want to know.
I must admit he said it.
I was thinking the same thing.
Okay, okay.
I'm happy we got a couple of potty heads here.
Very good.
Okay, it's good to have the wire up here.
What are we up to now?
We're already on 61, dude. This is great great okay yeah i feel like we can get going we'd have to wait any longer so let's uh
welcome people episode 66 i love what is there a what is there a name for that you know what's that
i don't know like when um when words are spelt the same backwards and forwards they're like
palindromic right i mean you've got and forwards, they're like palindromic.
Right.
I mean, is there a number palindrome thing?
Yeah, I mean, why not?
It makes sense.
Because a lot of people did that during, like, the PFP meta, right?
They'd be like, it's 5555 or 7777 or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, why not?
I like numbers like that.
It's a numerical palindrome.
There you go, numerical palidrome Of course it is
They said we'd never make it past 65
We proved them wrong
We keep doing that
Once again, yeah
Doug, I like your PFP update, my man
I know, Doug, it's looking good
You look rad
Let's go, dude, let's go
Crypto bros in the house
Broligarchy broligarchy yeah at toronto tofi coined the term broligarchy i mean i like that
he didn't he didn't drop the mic he just threw it across the fucking room
launched it into the stratosphere setting Sent it up on a starship.
It's really good.
We gotta name him for what it is.
Actually fucking case.
So welcome, episode 66.
This is FYI.
This is Ben and Doom.
Hey Doom, how you doing?
I'm well, how about you?
I'm good, man.
How was Vegas?
So fun.
Yeah?
Yeah. I'm still still you saw what i saw that post you did when you came back where you were like fuck when the apes land in vegas oh dude
it's gonna be insane man it's gonna be insane because we we definitely like went pretty hard
um you know there was there was a pool involved there were multiple nightclubs involved
there was like the stage behind the dj involved and bottle service and uh you know cards we did
all the things well not all the degenerate things but we did there was you know there was a lot of
drinking um and in eating great food but there's there's such vegas has some of the best restaurants
in the country all consolidated to like you know you know four square miles right great food if you
know there's some amazing sushi spots it's amazing breakfast spots it's amazing spots all around
so you know ate good meals hung out with good people drank more than i probably should have um and it was perfect no complaints
but yeah when when apes take over vegas in october oh my god it's gonna be insane yeah
yeah what do you think um what do you think the apes are gonna go in for hardest like do you think
it's the do you think it's the casino side of it do you you think it's the music?
I think there's going to be a cross-section of people
at the tables, a cross-section
of people at the nightclub,
a cross-section of people
at the
other places that you can go in Vegas.
And then
pools. October is still generally
warm enough to hit pools.
Definitely not as warm as it was last week,
but still nice in Vegas.
I think it's just going to be fucking days of degeneracy,
as it should be.
I love that.
I'm excited for it.
Hopefully there's enough events to keep some of us from getting arrested.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's important.
That would be my hope.
That would be my hope that would be my
well i think what you're going to need if you don't want to get arrested is a recovery brunch
yeah i would say right probably you need to be able to go somewhere yeah you know get a coffee some orange juice yeah croissant uh an iv drip uh oxygen bar a massage do you know anyone capable of putting on an event like that
funny that you bring that up that was the exact event that we did in nft new york two times in a
row there was a fun invite only experience are you guys gonna be at in in nft nyc by the way I don't
think I'm going to that. I hate the facts.
All these events are becoming so fragmented
that nobody's doing anything.
Yeah, and I also,
and NFT New York particularly,
I have beef with the fact
that they can't pick a fucking date
and stick with it.
Agreed. Is it April? Is it June?
Is it fucking September?
Yeah, when is it?
Generally, I come from like music and tech right and then like guess what south by southwest
same fucking week every year right gtc gdc right around the same week every year all these big
shows you know um you know what's the thing at the beginning of the year in vegas the big tech
convention whatever it's called um not sema but the other one it's like that's literally it's the
same time every year and then these guys keep moving the damn dates around because they're
trying to find the cheapest venue it's annoying yeah yeah i agree um just before we keep going
uh have we got everyone we need i think we do let's let's let's jump into
like what we've got to give away first and then let's just jump right in and talk with these guys
because like i said like logress has a hard stop okay we can cover the news a bit later on towards
the end of the show we'll jump straight into the chat in a moment because like i'm excited to talk
ai it's been a little while since we did it before we do that though welcome episode 66 fyi uh the show is partnered with the people at the wire network
who i am really excited ken hey how you doing ken good today
hey everybody hey so uh the wire network we we need to do a better job of uh of explaining what
the wire network do but like in principle what what they're doing is building probably the most badass thing that you can do when you work in this space,
which is essentially like a universal transaction layer that will allow any chain, any protocol, any AI agent,
any person that's doing dope shit in Web3 and on-chain to be able to do that interoperably.
And I think that's probably the best explanation I can give it.
I'll let the guys do a little bit of a better job of that in a moment.
But they have been our partners in this show since day one.
We are so grateful for them, and we're pleased to do this today.
Also, we've got some cool shit going on.
We've got a couple of giveaways of $100.
One of them is with Klyza.
Long-term partners as well.
Klyza is a really cool platform on base that allows you to essentially tweet a token into existence.
So you could say, hey, Klyza, create, you know,
FYI, the token.
I can't believe we haven't done that, Doom.
Somebody's going to do it right now.
And it would do it for you.
And also with XNPCs,
we met the team from there
a couple of weeks ago.
Really exciting what they're doing.
That's also personal.
Solana.
We also have another partnership we're doing today so i'll do those first two memes first if you want to be in with a chance of winning them we're going to pick them old
school style right so the way to do that is make sure you're following everyone up on stage right
now as a speaker then make sure that you like and retweet this post hit the purple pill in the
bottom right hand corner to do that and then towards the end of the show if you're still here
and you've done those things we'll pick one of you 100 bucks bang we also doom and i you'll notice
i have a little badge now i saw that let's talk about that for a second. So, Doom and I are going to do some cool partnership stuff with the people at Toshi Bet.
Toshi is an online casino, and it's a lot of fun.
No KYC, like, really fun, spin, sportsbook, a lot of cool shit going on there.
I'm going to post my, Hang on, here it is.
Well, Doom and I are actually going to adopt it together.
Here it is.
It is a...
I'm putting up to the top a referral link,
which is Toshibet slash R slash FYI.
Okay.
I have a window that allows me to see anyone
that clicks that link and creates an account. you and i also happen to have a uh
view that allows me to see if they put any uh anything if they power up that account if they
essentially put any money in it if during this show you use that code and create a an account
and put five bucks in that account i I'll be able to see everyone that
did that. And if you do that, and then I'm going to pick five out and I'm going to get the guys
from Toshi to put $50 in your account. So that's a $250 giveaway on top of 200, 100, sorry, two times
$100 giveaways. So we've got all kinds of shit going on from that perspective. $100 giveaways.
So we've got all kinds of shit going on from that perspective.
A lot of fun.
If anyone wants to do it, please participate.
It'd be good. And we're going to do that every week, right?
Every show.
Every show, sorry.
As well as some posts and some streams.
Doom and I are going to play around.
We're going to gamble.
With a generous team perspective.
Getting ready for Vegas.
Exactly, right?
Okay, but before we get into all of that stuff, let's do some other things.
So, let's talk about the show today.
Should we talk about the show today?
Because I feel like we can come back to the news.
Yeah, let's come back to the news if we even have time for it, because what we've got is
got a whole bunch of people here that we want to talk with so that's going to be you know more interesting i love it
okay so look today a special edition discussion uh with who we got right blockchain ballock i'm just
telling you who was due to be here blockchain ballock uh d johnston ec mike casey tad looney Like Dee Johnston, EC, Mike Casey, Tad Looney, I'm putting you in as your at here, and then Logris.
We're talking about DAI, right? Decentralized AI.
And specifically, we said we were going to talk about the challenges of adoption.
As artificial intelligence continues to permeate various sectors,
artificial intelligence continues to permeate various sectors. Its integration presents
a whole myriad of challenges from data privacy, concerns about ethical considerations, workforce
readiness, regulatory hurdles. Today we're joined by this incredible panel, including
the team from WIRE, to delve in a little bit more about the complexities of what it means to like build
in the AI space and on board in the AI space. Like we're all here, we're all absolutely
fundamentally aware that this is the direction we're moving in. But for the people who are like
just terrified that this is going to just, you know, steal our jobs and turn us into, you know,
like we're going to end up in Skynet Terminator territory.
Like, I feel like we all have an obligation to try and smooth the path out.
And so that's what this is all about.
So why don't we start by just asking the panel to share a little bit about themselves,
their backgrounds, their projects. I'm going to ask Ken to do it first on behalf of WIRE and then we'll move through.
I'll bring everyone up as and when people finish. And if we can try and keep that to sync, guys,
I can get into a few questions. We can start talking about what's going on. And then Doom
and I, we can return to the markets a bit towards the end of the show. So, Ken, hey, man, how are you?
Introduce yourself for people who've been living under a rock.
Tell us what you're up to and what WIRE is all about.
Hey, so I'm going to sub in for Ken because Ken's kind of like a little bit.
Go, Doug.
Yeah, I'm going.
I'm going for it. is the solution for that blockchain aspect of decentralized AI,
specifically in the agentic space.
And what I mean by that is the things that agents need
in order to function properly across the agentic economy
is access to all chains with no friction,
very cheap transactions,
and it needs to be instantaneous, which we check all
those boxes. There's not a consensus layer between in our ability to connect blockchains,
which is currently the standard in the space around bridging and oracles and things like that.
Wire network is completely different in that there's
no consensus between the chains. So with that said, we partner with or we're on the same kind
of ground floor space as SETI and Spheron and some of the infrastructure and Morpheus and some
of the infrastructure-based projects that are in
decentralized AI. And so that's kind of the 411 on wire. And just while I have the microphone,
could you guys add Prashant, who is the CEO of Awesome? I see you just got added. Excellent.
So that's the 411 on wire. I'm super excited. David Johnston is a core contributor of Morpheus and a huge individual in this space who's proliferating decentralized AI in a real way.
an author across technology and specifically blockchain and AI.
And I won't go and intro everyone, but I just wanted to name a couple folks.
And I'll turn the mic over back to you guys.
Love that. Thank you so much.
Tufik, do you want to quickly, very quickly introduce yourself as well?
Yeah, for sure.
My name is Tufik.
I'm a lawyer in blockchain AI, and I'm a managing partner of a crypto-focused law firm called
Rino & Co.
Love that.
And Logris, give us the head up on yourself and SETI.
So SETI owns a bunch of hardware and we
source as much demand for that hardware as
we can from everywhere we can. So that's
inference, that's training, that's crypto
mining if we have to. It's anything we can
to saturate demands on the cards.
The Intelligent Compute Fabric we're building is
kind of like a circuit board or a switchboard
that sources AI
demand from everywhere we can and routes it to
compute around the globe.
Help people monetize the hardware.
Yes. Love it.
Doom, let's fire into the questions.
Hell yeah.
In your experience,
what are the most significant barriers organizations face when adopting AI technologies?
Okay. Who are we putting that into first?
David, are you going to go first?
Whoever wants to jump on it.
Yeah.
David.
David must be having
technical difficulties. Anybody else want to jump on that
one? Sure. I've
done this for a few different companies. So I've taken
three companies from AI
prototype to acquisition.
And along that way, you get a bunch of
scaling challenges. I think I can jump on it.
Okay.
If you'd like to.
Love that.
Let's let Logris finish.
Yeah. Logris, you go first.
Okay.
So you do get
something
on scaling challenges, especially
with data curation, data streaming,
data privacy, data protection.
If your company is in control of data, then you have the liability of protecting that
data.
And so when you become an AI company, the secret like sauce of AI is data.
And so before you start really worrying about AI, you worry about how to escrow data, how to protect that data, how to add the right access controls in that data. And so before you start really worrying about AI, you worry about how to escrow data,
how to protect that data, how to add the right access controls in that data. So it can't be,
you know, if you have all the, you know, F-18s of the US under a single database,
you don't want someone to be able just like select star from devices and see them, right?
You want people to only be able to see the devices in their control group or the devices that they
have really a need to know about, right?
This is true for a lot of critical infrastructure.
This is true basically for if you want to get a unified system of the power infrastructure of the U.S., you don't just want anyone to be able to see all of that all at once and make changes to a table.
That's how databases are typically built, right?
You get permissions on a table-by-table basis rather than on a row by row basis and so wrapping the right access layer around the data is certainly
a challenge just for protecting it escrowing at scale um you know how do you build a good
horizontal database horizontally scaled database like you might get postgres up to your you know
11 you know horizontally scaled, and congratulations to you.
But when you start dealing with petabytes of data,
that just doesn't cut it, right?
The data access patterns,
you really need to start thinking hierarchical
and eventual consistency.
You need to start using tools like Hadoop
and MapReduce, Snowflake-style things,
really big data processing-style solutions.
These are all the challenges of building an AI org.
It starts with managing data at scale, which is just a multi-million dollar investment. It is not an easy
thing. It takes years to develop a competency on, but once you're there, you're good. That's if
you're building your own AI product. You start with data. On the other side of this, you have
people using AI products. And I don't see a whole lot of adoption barriers there. If anything,
it's being pushed on people in companies, whether they want it or not. You have the Duolingo CEO
saying like, look, AI is coming for your jobs. And like, he's talking about his own employees,
right? And what does that really have to do with AI, right? It's a language company, right?
We see this coming for programmers. We see this coming for artists. If you're in a game dev shop and you're going to be a game asset artist today, you're pretty much required to use AI, at least to assist with your process.
And this is being pushed on people of every informatics profession.
So I don't see there's a lot of technical barriers in adopting AI.
We do have barriers in adopting DAI, which is mostly that
no one has heard of us, right? I go to Agents Day or whatever at some conference, and I'll talk to
100 people, and two of them are actually building AI. I go to Vegas, or I go to an AI conference
that NVIDIA is running in San Jose, and no one's heard of DAI.
I can walk the whole floor and I'll find maybe one booth from Aether or something or
Acost or something, but no one has heard of DAI outside of pretty much the Web3 space.
So our biggest hurdle for adoption on DAI isn't technological. It is business development. And I know I've said
this on the podcast before, but so you asked a kind of opening question of giving you three
different answers depending on who your target audience is. Internally, the biggest challenge
is managing big data if you're developing an AI product. Externally, within Web2 companies,
adopting AI products is a very straightforward thing that's happening at a rapid pace that seems unabated.
Within Web3, our biggest problem isn't really technological.
I think our biggest problem is being heard of, right?
Having the people trust us to implement the service, to have hardware that's reliable.
Because AWS starts with a lot of trust.
We have to overcome that barrier.
And I welcome everyone else's views on this topic i love
that low gris that's like top top um insight there and i think that specifically that bit about like
trust it's weird isn't it because obviously there's a number of us that are coming out of like
web 3 who are obviously all you know freaked out at the fact that there's just very little trust in
this space but you know ai is coming at it from a different a different side of things and yet
there is still so much kind of like trepidation when it comes to what ai represents and how to
work with it and there are people who are terrified of it from like a data breach perspective.
There are people who just think like, Oh, I don't like this.
It's going to steal my job there.
You know, there, there are so many layers in terms of that whole,
like trust element of it.
Is there anyone else here that wants to like very quickly touch on those
barriers to entry for particularly for like organizations when it comes to adopting AI tech?
I'll jump in here. This is Michael Casey. I'm the chairman of the Decentralized AI Society.
Hey dude, how are you? Hey, how are you? Thanks for having me on. So I'm, and thanks Doug for
setting this up. And Ken, I spent most of my life and career at the intersection of technology and
journalism. So I've sort of been out there trying trying to i think of myself as something of an educational bridge right bringing those who
don't understand something into a world i'm the i'm the translator as once somebody was describing
i can speak enough dolphin to translate dolphin to the rest of the world but um the i i think that
that some of what logos is talking about there goes to the heart of an awareness problem. And the question is,
how do we get the, whether it is the consumer user or the corporate user, to sort of understand
why this alternative matters and why it actually can help to resolve so many of the, or at least
address some of the fears they have. And I think if you go back to what Logos was saying about data
and you start looking at the enterprise side of it,
you've got these liabilities, as you said,
of a massive data store.
And yet at the heart of it,
if you think about AI not as this silly race to AGI
amongst seven giant platforms,
but rather a mechanism for
unlocking all of the data in the world that's behind these paywalls to solve many of the
problems that companies and research houses and everyone else have.
We're going to have to figure out how to create enough confidence amongst the custodians of
that data that it will not be breached,
that this is something that they can be confident with.
This is their business secrets.
This is their responsibilities to the users, whatever it is.
There's very good reasons why they don't want to put this out into the wild.
I think that education around confidential computing,
around decentralized storage,
around decentralized computer, around decentralized computer. The
idea that you actually have control of this is critical. And I think when I look at our space
and wonder why this awareness problem that Logos was also talking to is so sort of frustrating
almost, I think it's because crypto itself is just continually so siloed.
Like the capacity to actually find a common voice would be so much easier if there wasn't just perpetual competition amongst these otherwise, in the grand scheme of things, quite small silos of different blockchain and token communities.
So again, why maybe this listen to this?
Because you are creating
that consensus layer across all the chains. And so now all of a sudden, maybe we diffuse through
that process, this siloing that is so rife. But either way, that sort of common voice has to be
achieved because at the end of the day, money is speech, apparently, according to the Supreme Court, but it's also power.
And the Magnificent Seven, as Wall Street likes to call them, have got, you know, whatever
it is, $17 trillion in market cap.
And that is a war chest, which they can just acquire everything and continue to centralize
this process unless we find a way to share that liquidity such that we are speaking
with a common voice. It doesn't mean that everybody sort of falls into the same world here,
but that I think that sort of like the liquidity money question, the common voice question come
together around this sort of effort to show to the world that this is a real
alternative and it's going to solve many of the problems that you have in not adopting AI right
now. So that's a roundabout way of pulling all these things together in the way I tend to see it.
Well, Michael just set me up big time for this.
I wouldn't mean to, but you can thank me.
I wouldn't mean to, but you can thank me. I'll take the paper bag later on, Kim.
I'll take the paper bag later on, kid.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
It's like...
I have to go in two minutes.
So can I...
I'll respond very quickly
and then I'll pass it over to you, Ken.
Yeah, go, Logos.
Thank you, Logos.
Thanks.
Very much appreciate it.
I would reframe what you're saying of...
And I've said this to Doug before
and I've said this to others on this call before.
But if you...
If we were a single company,
like DeFi, DAI, we're like 50 different companies of five engineers.
If we were a single company of 250 engineers, if we presented ourselves like AWS, we would have a biz dev dedicated unit for that product.
Our ecosystem is a product.
The outcome of it is skill automation.
That's a multi-trillion dollar opportunity that we're trying to pursue as an ecosystem. But we're pursuing it as 50 different units, each of whom has limited
biz dev resources. And we're duplicating a lot of our expenses by sending all of us over to the same
Web3 conferences so we can kind of socialize and jostle for prestige or something, right?
But we're not going to where the AI users are and really fighting for
mindshare in a competent way there. We need, when he says a common voice, we should have a single
booth over at a dentistry conference trying to push the benefits of AI for like diagnostic stuff.
We should be over at an education conference talking about the benefits of AI for like live
tutoring and feedback to math students, right? We should be
out where the users of the AI are, but rather than sending 50 of us out there to get 50 different
booths, we should have a joint business development unit that we fund as an ecosystem that sends a
representative for all of us out to there. We could reduce our costs by 10x compared to what we're
doing right now. We could get a lot further with the funds expense
that we have, and we can try to present our ecosystem
as a coherent product value add to people
and evangelize it that way.
It'd be a complete change from how we're doing it today.
We're off to leave though, but I do have to go.
Nice, I love the, thank you.
Put it in corporate language, it was great.
Really appreciate it.
No, Chris, thank you, man. Come back to see us very soon because we appreciate you every time you come up.
Ken, jump in and then Tufik, I'd love to hear more of what you've got to say, dude.
Yeah, he sent me on what I want to go on another tangent.
But it goes all the way back to the blockchain.
So I'll tie in everything that I was about to say.
The industry is it to the blockchain. So I'll tie in everything that I was about to say. The industry is, it needs the infrastructure.
So it's like on the AI side, or decentralized AI,
it's like if you have to go build your own car to drive it,
like how many people are going to do that?
Like it needs to, like the infrastructure needs to be there.
The assembly line, the workers,
like we're running at the speed of light to try and get us there but it is a process like it took you know i've talked about this before it
took 10 years to have to go from one computer to talk to another computer back in the early
internet days like we're we're going at blazing speed yet it just doesn't feel fast enough because
of you know what the demand will be once we get there.
With the internet, no one really knew, like, you know, what's this thing going to be?
Oh, it's going to be just like the fax machine.
And people were wrong, right?
Like, people understand what AI is going to do.
And so, you know, it's not lost on them how important this technology is.
is and to log this point like i talk about this with like every l1 or l2 that gets created as far
as like the inefficiency of development and having a unified voice every l1 and l2 that gets created
what happens they have to build a dex and they build a wallet and they build a marketplace and
they build you know they the developers actually just replicate over and over and over for each L1 and L2.
There needs to be standardization and unification as what Michael was talking about.
It's not just liquidity.
We need to get the developers to stop just generating the 75th NFT marketplace
that's not going to do anything.
Once you have these blockchains with a transaction
layer in a unified way, it's like best NFT marketplace is going to win or top three.
It's just because McDonald's was built doesn't mean that you don't go do Burger King or Wendy's,
but there's not going to be 75 burger chains trying to compete across the country or the same thing for
anything else you know like we just need to streamline what this industry blockchain on the
blockchain side and on the decentralized ai side like all of that just needs a that the infrastructure
needs to be there that's what wire is doing and once we release that
then it's like everyone competes at the product level and they stop trying to compete at the
blockchain level repeating you know building the same stuff over and over
yeah wow sorry my phone was glitching a bit there i can thank you so much for that couldn't agree
more with you, actually.
Tafik, do you want to add something before I move us on to the next question?
And anyone else for that answer, actually?
Yeah, for sure.
I think everyone added some really important stuff here.
And I'll come at it from my angle.
Like, we're effectively Italy in 1850, right? We're a bunch of, you know, states, duchies that have no, you know, common power that fight and squabble amongst themselves, and that allow the larger empires, you know, of Austria, Hungary, Meta, and France, Google, to effectively dominate us right now.
And what we really need to actually gain, though I agree with what everyone has said,
and this is just a supplement to it, what we also need is we need an ideology, right?
We need something that we can rally around.
We need something that we can rally around.
And this is how, from the Italian historical context, how they were able to unify.
They were able to come up with the concept of Italian nationalism.
that individual people could attach their woes,
their sufferings and their hopes and their aspirations
to this ideological construct.
And that was able to move,
that was able to create a movement
that brought Italy together, right?
We effectively need an ideology.
And the funny thing is, is that when we speak to all of, you know, when we speak within
the community, we're all aligned.
We're all aligned with the goals and we're all aligned with the vision, but we still
compete with each other in this feudalistic fashion.
And I think that's why what, you know, WIRE is doing is so key.
But what we also need is, and what Ken also brought up is, you know, wire is doing is so key, but what we also need is, and what
Ken also brought up is, you know, this construct of standardization and that
standardization comes from our ability to build and something that I'm working
on and hopefully with everyone in this room is a, you know, a, a, a, a, a
you know, a essential, like super association, right?
essential, like super association, right?
Like a super intelligent association for all of us
in which we can create, you know,
cross-chain governance standards
and cooperative, you know, cooperation standards
so we can actually work and row in the same direction.
Because without an ideological framework,
without an ability to cooperate, you know, amongst each other, we're just going to consistently squabble in our corner of the universe.
And we're consistently going to be not known.
only pitch the, you know, the negatives of the broligarchy, the negatives of the manner
in which our society may be going into in the future, you know, in the short future.
But we also need to pitch a cohesive solution, a cohesive vision of where we are going to
be able to take folks if they choose to adopt our way of interacting with technology and society at
large did that happen last time so like with the silicon valley microsoft google.com that whole
side of things was there like a because that was that broke the mold? That changed a lot of things. That whole onboarding of Web 1.0 and
2.0. Was there a cohesive narrative that a number of the leaders took together to drive
people in a direction that then onboarded the masses as we know it?
Well, I think there was a cohesive concept at the beginning of the intranet,
you know, back in the 80s and 90s.
And that was a concept around, you know, decentralization, around open source.
Right. And what we effectively had is we effectively had what was supposed to be,
you know, something that empowers empowers each individual co-opted by the
Magnificent Seven.
And I forget the stat, but they are now responsible for above 50% of all income generated on the
internet or something insane in that fashion.
of like something insane in that fashion.
So really, we had this co-option from the initial vision
of what the technology was supposed to do.
And this is round two of the fight, right?
And this battle is way bigger.
And we cannot allow for the principles
of the underlying technology to get co-opted again.
But one of the nice things about blockchain, and I can get into this later,
but like blockchain actually helps in, you know, reducing technological co-option from, you know, actors in using that technology in ways that were not intended by its creators.
Love that. Yeah, Michael, go for it.
Yeah, just going to add quickly, I think it was, when you asked that question, it was
a really interesting question because I think, I don't know, there was a cohesive story around
open source, that was all there.
Yes, there was a common voice amongst the early pioneers of the internet.
But the question I think that you posed is relevant to the question of adoption.
Now, the adoption of the internet
really took off in the 90s. What did we have in the 90s? Not necessarily a better message from
Silicon Valley. We had the end of the Cold War. We had the fact that American capitalism had won
the day and that there was a narrative around that, that open systems, open platforms, open trade, all of this was the way forward. So the 1996 Telecoms
Act was pivotal in the, you know, movement from dial up to
broadband. And that itself was was founded on this grand idea
that we break up monopolies and we'll all move forward. It was
very post Cold War thinking it was end of history sort of stuff.
Francis Fukuyama, all that sort of stuff, right?
We don't have that now.
We're in a de-globalizing moment of paranoia and returning back.
So I'm talking here not about us in blockchain.
I'm talking about the entire sort of society.
And I think that it's very hard, not, you know,
withstanding Logos' really good point about how much more unified
we'd be if we were one company, things are moving so fast it's very hard, not, you know, withstanding Logos' really good point about how much more unified would we be
if we were one company,
things are moving so fast in the AI space
that I think this, whatever this,
and I agree with Tufik, like an ideology,
a story, it's critical.
It's going to have to be built in an alliance
with the mainstream, with, you know,
whatever, regular Web 2 companies
and large enterprises
and academic institutions and the like, because that's how you turn this into a story.
Right now, the story of crypto, unfortunately, is the story of FTX
and, you know, and like, you know, meme coins and speculation.
That is the public perception, as wrong as it is.
That is the public perception, as wrong as it is.
And so we need to grasp a story, to build a story that is shared across a variety of different stakeholders that sort of almost repeats that moment of the 90s so that there's something for people to attach their dreams to, as Tufik was saying.
So I say this because this is,
at DAIS, the Decentralized AI Society,
we are definitely here to be a resource
for all of the crypto communities
building this space to be part of.
But I feel that a very important part of our mission
is to build those bridges to the mainstream,
to academic institutions, to enterprises,
and actually to governments as well,
because, you know, particularly city governments and the like who are trying to grapple with this,
they've all got to be part of this story.
Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree. Really interesting.
I'm going to put a new question to you guys, and then I'll let Doom follow up with another one.
um i i think we spend a lot of time thinking about like the barriers and the things that
are happening right now that they're like the issues right now and i am i'm of the belief that
there are a few really interesting platforms wire being one of them at the forefront that are
capable of really like changing and addressing
those issues what I would love to talk about maybe is like looking ahead and what you guys
think the most important developments you foresee in AI adoption like I'm not talking about what
are the most important things that AI can provide but what are the most important things that AI can provide, but what are the most important developments in terms of adoption that we should all be looking out for?
What are the things that need to happen that will suddenly make like not just the curious pay attention, but the masses suddenly like just jump into action and be like, fuck, this is we need to get on top of this right
now what do you think those key milestones are and um and i'll let any of you jump in first on
that point but i'm really curious to know what you guys think of that i'd like to hear david johnson
as well if he's available i'll see see if I can bring David back up.
Yeah, he dropped, but he's still in the crowd.
So let me see if I can.
David, come up, dude.
I would love to hear your view on that.
Ken, in the meantime, do you want to go
or does anyone else have a view on that?
I think I just want to say that we need more well-designed products
and things which work on the back end pretty seamlessly
and which is like pretty easy to
utilize. Like you don't know X space is running on AWS right now or on what machine right now
because it is so seamless yet so seamless. So we need to have more robust technology around it
and not feel that there is actually blockchain being used in the backend. And however, like even the agent space
and everything which is picking up,
if the technology is robust enough
and you have good developer experience
or even the user experience,
you do not have to go and scream out that use us
because it is eventually something
which anybody would want to use.
And there are some good products who have done that,
who have broken into the market
with actual tangible options and have become the substitution of web-to-products.
So I feel like we need to lessen that DX between us making more distribution of things which are not robustly built versus focused on creating more robust things and then scaling it on a
lot of people. And I think Moffice is a really good example
of that. And we're trying also to also to do the same in the
compute space. So yeah.
Love that. Absolutely. Build the product, refine the product,
refine the user experience. David, love to hear what you have
to say on this too, dude.
Sure.
So, you know, I think the big thing is building applications that people can use and touch.
A lot of people have mentioned we've been so deep on the infrastructure side.
You know, we got to get to websites, apps and APIs that people can actually play with.
apps and APIs that people can actually play with.
So that's the big focus for me this year is let's make application layer the big focus,
right?
Like clients, you know, most people don't use a Bitcoin full node.
They use a wallet.
Most people don't download an Ethereum node.
They use MetaMask, right?
We need to get to the same level for decentralized AI. That's my entire focus is let's build amazing user interfaces and user experience.
Yeah. Couldn't agree more, man.
Like, it's funny, isn't it?
You ask the question and you hear two really comprehensive answers and you're like, of course, of course, that's what it is.
of course that's what it is like that's absolutely what needs to happen
Like, that's absolutely what needs to happen.
before we move on to doom's final question is there anything that
any of you any any the rest of you think like in terms of like key milestones that we need to
achieve in order to start moving the needle when it comes to adoption yeah i can ken do you want to
go one more thing on that is we have to get to the same level as Web2 did, which is it's got to be free, right?
That's how you get mass adoption.
So, for example, the Morpheus context at openbeta.org, we just launched a free API for people with the access.
We're routing the compute in the background, but we're subducing the cost right now for the beta.
And I think that's the model that we have to get to
is it's got to be totally free.
It's got to be totally frictionless.
We can't have these models
that introduce a bunch of barriers,
but we're going to have five people using them.
So I just want to put that out there.
I think we have that superpower
as a blockchain community to use incentives to remove all the friction for the end user. I just want to say I think that's a critical piece.
One of the things that's a reality around AI is that if we're using as, you know, subjects, experts of marketing or AI itself or or baking bread or whatever it is, we are essentially.
And if we're using an AI tool to help us do that, we're essentially training AI, quote unquote, to do our job.
AI, quote unquote, to do our job. So the reality is, is that eventually,
you know, what we're facing is that these jobs are going to go away and that they're going to
end up being AIs. And so one of the fundamental things that blockchain can be through inputting your data into the blockchain, you can essentially
be compensated in the future for AI using your data to essentially take your job.
So that's just one thought to kind of sit with.
Yeah. We are... That's just one thought to kind of sit with. Yeah, we aren't, it's not a magic potion as to what's happening.
Like we're not creating new physics to David Johnson's point.
Like, you know, how Wire looked at creating the universal transaction layer.
I just looked at how the stock market worked and how these exchanges were all
over the world and like how users could seamlessly buy and sell,
you know,
assets.
And it's like,
okay,
the greatest minds of the last hundred years have built that financial system.
There's no way that I or Kyle or anybody else on our team is going to
be able to compete with a hundred years of the brightest minds building a system you just need
to decentralize it properly like that's what we're doing here so it's not like recreating it's not
you know creating a new element we're just decentralizing like what is already you know out
there and and uh and works and so somebody talked to me yesterday they're
like i was talking about on-chain agents they're like well yeah isn't but why on-chain like there
there's already there's already you know ai agents you know being built by you know the
centralized companies and so i had to walk them through like what data they're actually going to be giving those entities. And I'm like, at the end, I'm like,
do you want to do that? Or do you want to have your data,
you own it,
have it encrypted and have essentially like, you know,
zero knowledge proofs that are,
that are allowing you to function within,
within a decentralized system
and they're like decentralized all the way after that it's like so that's you know that's what's
going to happen it's like we just need to create a web2 experience as david said make it free
make it functional like e-trade fidelity schwidelity, Schwab. There was all the, there were all these trading platforms before.
And guess what?
Robin Hood came, made it super easy and ate everybody's lunch.
So, and that was how many years after, you know,
it was two decades later after E-Trade and everyone came out.
Like it's literally about if you can make the easiest to use product that
makes people's lives better.
And then, you know, they realize that they don't want to be giving that data to centralized entities,
we're the natural selection as far as where these users are going to come flowing in.
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
We mean it again and again and again in history.
Sorry, go ahead and maybe to add on to that yeah to add on to that like i i really i really love
my species i really do but like the the one thing one thing about it is that we're we're actually
all hypocrites right and if you think that you're not a hypocrite, then exhibit it. Right. So we, you know, we hear from the market that people care about data privacy.
They care about this, they care about that, but the market, like the actions
within the market proved that that's not the case, right?
Like most people still use Google over DuckDuckGo, even though that, you know,
still use Google over DuckDuckGo, even though that, you know, the use of our data by Google,
you know, has become almost, you know, generally aware to the broader public.
So that's thing number one.
Thing number two is, yeah, we need to build, you know, the most easy user accessible product
ever and really, you know, one of the best products ever.
But then my next question is, how do we even compete on that level? We are competing toe-to-toe
with some of the largest, well-capitalized and well-financed companies out there,
and are we actually going to be able to beat them on that level playing field?
actually going to be able to beat them on that level playing field.
And we've seen, again, that most people know about the dangers of AI.
They understand that there's a risk that it takes this job, but they still use it every
day.
And AI adoption from open AI, et cetera, is becoming almost ubiquitous within many organizations.
So it's a boiling frog kind of situation where people will, for short-term gain, again,
another human deficiency, for short-term gain, will actually be sacrificing long-term benefits
for themselves.
And so it comes back to, yeah.
I agree with you.
I'm going to pose you a question that I want you to answer.
So in your case of DuckDuckGo versus Chrome or Safari or whatever,
I would say, and you can correct me,
that there's not a real user experience differential
other than something's more private and something's not.
What I think is going to be the difference maker for centralized AI
versus these closed source models is uh the the price keeps going up
which is funny for the centralized models like the your monthly subscription for
for chat gpt keeps increasing like or or they're gonna start restricting how good of a product
they're gonna give you because maybe because
you're a citizen and this thing's too powerful and you know it's just for four to five hundred
companies and then it's just for governments and then it's just or they're going to keep putting
restrictions and they're they're going to whether it's price or or power and you're going to get to a point where there is a clear differential it's like i have to
use decentralized ai because it's now like the only way that i get to compete in the marketplace
because i don't have a million dollars a month or i need the i need the most powerful model in
centralized ai is just not giving it to me because I'm a citizen. Like there's things like that that are going to happen in the future that are
going to make a difference.
Yeah. And a hundred percent. And I think that's why I think the, the,
the killer aspect of what we can do here is, is the token, right?
Like is the ability really to build a, you know,
compensation layer within the use of, of the, you know,
of the AI,
whether through kind of decentralized governance or through
kind of data usage or likewise.
But I completely agree with Ken, right?
Like at the end of the day, like, you know, OpenAI is stating that they're going to charge,
you know, $20,000 a month for PhD level AI agents, right?
You know, that's not a simple price, but they're competing
against a human, right? So if we can come and give, you know, a comparable, you know, a comparable
product, you know, at, you know, a very reduced price point, or even like within a, you know,
within a construct of a compensation scheme based upon tokenomics, then I think that's the manner in which we
are able to beachhead into this industry, right?
And to use a case example, and one I use often is the Helium case example, right?
Where Helium is at the moment releasing its own carrier, right?
It's turning into a telephone company.
That's something that is considered impossible to do from a regular business standpoint,
because starting your own telecom company is so capital intensive, but the barriers
to entry are so high, right?
Think about like if you wanted to compete with AT&T or Verizon, that you would have
to build effectively this entire infrastructure of networks
and transmitters to be able to even compete.
Extremely impossible.
What they were able to do is incentivize people to effectively run modems and gain helium
tokens.
And then with that, they were able to build a network of modems that are able to support
a phone product, right?
Like that type of modeling is the modeling that like we would need to do to effectively, you know, sneak under, you know, sneak under the bushes and ambush kind of the, you know, the broligarchy in its activities.
So from my perspective, I think that's what we're doing. And I think
from WIRE's point of view,
that's what you guys are doing as well. And same
with DJ.
This MFA is
determined to coin
the phrase broligarchy.
I think it's working. I'm here for it
for sure. Yeah, I'm going to carry
that one. I like it.
I like it. use it at free will
oh dude it's wait we might have the title of future space fully adopted um yeah guys i gotta run
thanks for everyone i used to say down with the broligarchy and i'm out of here thanks a lot of
everybody yeah michael down with the thanks michael fuck the broligarchy
down with the broligarchy.
Thanks, Michael.
Fuck the broligarchy.
I love it.
Thank you, Michael.
I appreciate you coming up.
Guys, we're running really, really tight on time.
Doug, could we bring everyone back again,
like this entire panel?
Because I feel like we could do like a two-hour special
if we gave it a little time to plan it.
Absolutely.
You know, absolutely.
And I'm so impressed with my hosts here that we were actually
able to really get a lot out of everybody i mean typically it doesn't go down like this so big
shout out to to ben and von doom thanks man yeah let's bring it back next week if we can for these
guys that'd be great yeah 100 dav, I got a question before we jump.
Yeah, yeah.
David.
For $20,000 for a PhD level agent that's centralized, what are we going to be able to do in the decentralized realm?
What's that going to cost?
Free.
We got to get everybody.
I knew he was going to say that.
I love that.
Hell fucking yeah, yeah guys Let's go
Revenue generation can come in
So many different formats
You don't need to withhold that shit
For that kind of money
And it's so fucking obvious
Anyone that positions himself that way
Is just not going to stand
The test of time here
Let them have their hubris and
we you know and and like napoleon said never you know never get in way in the way of your
enemies making a mistake to think exactly that's that's what i'm relying on and i think that's what
we all should be feel comfortable in they're gonna step in it they always do like they they're gonna make
the mistake they already are they it's just gonna compound and and we'll be there to to take
advantage love that i'm looking forward to it look let's let's cap it there but uh doug bring bring
this whole squad back with us and let's uh let's roll it back and do another one because i think there's a lot a lot more to do on this absolutely i i feel like the cool thing is is
that you know to lagris's point you know and everybody and and michael casey's point and ken's
point there there and to feek's point there are disconnects around this topic, but we're all in alignment here.
And these are the key players in the space.
Like you, for the listeners, you are witnessing a conversation between the key players in the space of decentralized AI.
This is the rebel forces in Star Wars, man.
That's who you are dealing with right now.
And with the intelligence and the resources and the vision and the creativity and platforms like Von Dooms, I'm totally bullish on success for all of us.
Is Sam Altman the emperor in this equation?
Damn fucking right he is.
Who's Jabba, though? in this equation I actually actually think he's uh and yeah he's Anakin Skywalker because he was
he had he had he started off good yeah yeah god damn he's job of the hut
that's my question that's the dude from claude the anthropic guy yeah yeah yeah he's definitely
he's definitely on that job too oh man i love it right dude let's pick some he kidnapped leia
that bastard right let's pick some winners i got a couple of things to say very quickly
we're gonna pick two winners we're gonna pick a klyzer winner and we're going to pick a nspc's nxpc's xnpc's me something like that yeah so uh that one always
gives you trouble yeah man i'll never get it one on one on base one on soul while we're doing that
if any of you want to hit that link that i've posted in the jumbotron at the top and create an account and add five dollars to
it literally there are like six of you that have done it so far so i'm gonna pick five of you to
win 50 bucks like the odds are so good right now yeah it's like literally free money is create an
account very quickly and send five bucks to it like could not be quicker and we're going to spend a couple of minutes picking out the two meme winners uh so you've got time to do that in the background
okay doom let's do klyzer first all right um number nine so one number three four five six
seven eight nine and three okay cool i like this one this is an account
that i've seen these little pfps i don't know what they are which one is it ox coffee well wait
ox coffee you are a winner did they do the thing yeah they've done all things i've seen that all
right so i'm just quickly good good klyiser is OX Coffee.
I've moved away from my pen and pad, and I'm doing it on my laptop now.
Well done, OX Coffee.
Send me your base EVM wallet, please, and we will send you $100 worth of Kleiser.
Okay, let's do XNPCs on Solana.
Go, go, go.
Okay, so three more up.
One, two, three.
Yeah.
And two.
Okay.
oh my god.
Hang on a second.
My phone got all glitchy. we are right uh oh i recognize
this guy oh nice okay long time follower doom has he done the things yeah he's done the things
nice journey of chandu mr twilight oh yeah thanks that XNPCs And that means Journey
Chandu
Okay, send me your Solana address, dude
You've just won
$100 worth of XNPCs
Well paid, good stuff
Right, do you want me to refresh
It on Toshi now?
Yeah, why don't you do a quick refresh
See if anybody else decided to give it a shot
Okay, let's see, did anyone to give it a shot okay let's
see did anyone else give it a shot during that time yes four people did well done all right
and okay so winners of 50 bucks worth of toshi i'm just gonna write no worth of it's actually
50 usdt or whatever uh on on the Toshi platform that they can see.
Yeah, so you can play some games.
Play some games.
Do some sports bets.
Exactly.
So the winners are OX, Alpha, Jacob.
I'm just going to copy past her, so just give me a fucking sec.
OX, Alpha, Jacob.
And...
They have this deposit. Dude, I'm looking i'm looking yeah yeah i'm
looking i just i just actually put 200 bucks in and i got 400 now to play with oh okay great
that's awesome okay tiger tiger west you have won 50 bucks smiles 96 you have won 50 bucks caramel chocolate my favorite kind of chocolate
you have won 50 bucks and the last one hang on i'm just pastoring that okay is ox kingsman
you have won 50 bucks.
Look at that, man.
We're giving money out here, left, right, and fucking center.
OX Alpha Jacob, Tiger West, Smiles, Caramel Chocolate, OX Kingsman.
I'm going to send that list to the people at Toshi.
They'll probably do it in the next 48 hours, so just hold fire.
It will be added to your balance.
Well done.
$50 each. Go have fun. Enjoy the platform people It was as easy as that literally 15 people did it
I chose five those odds are the best odds you'll ever fucking get right Ken Doug
Tufik David David. I'm really excited to see what you're seeing today. Please share. Yeah, for real man
to see what you're seeing today.
Please share videos. Yeah, for real, man.
Post that. Awesome pictures.
Yeah, please do. We would love that.
Logris has gone. Michael's gone.
This has been a lot of fun. Thank you
so much, everyone, for joining. Doom,
great to see you. We'll be back on Friday, right?
We'll be back on Friday.
That is correct. Okay, looking forward to it.
Everyone else, peace out, have fun,
lots of love. Bye-bye.
See you, everybody. Take care. all right peace out have fun lots of love bye-bye see everybody take care
