["Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy"]
Just bear with us getting our speakers in right now.
Five, four, three, two, one.
We had a little bit of technical difficulties
trying to get our co-host in.
So we're just gonna go ahead and go.
We got most of our speakers in.
If you haven't, I will add you shortly.
And, but I wanna go ahead and kick this off
My name is Adam Kleng, CEO and founder of Fix Gaming.
It's a, kind of a strategy RT.
Well, I should say maybe Abel will be a good person
I don't wanna do too much plug of what we do.
I don't wanna talk about kind of our topics today,
but we do run Cryptophytes and also the Fix Gateway,
which I'll explain a little bit later
since we're running late.
So I have a bunch of speakers in here.
I'd like for you to do a quick introduction
and then we'll move to our first topic
Let me just get myself situated.
Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself.
I work for Find Satoshi Lab.
We're the development team
behind Steppen and Moore and Gashero.
I get the fun opportunity to massively grow our player base.
Gashero is just launched a few weeks ago
and we've had tremendous success.
that is consistent throughout our entire ecosystem.
So I'm fascinated by today's topic of game tokens
and game changing tokens.
Awesome, thank you very much.
Let's introduce our next speaker, Cyberleet.
I think I just added you.
I'm Jeffrey Monnis, co-founder of Cyberleet.
A little bit about Cyberleet.
Cyberleet's a massive social application
with competitive features for gamers
embedded with AI anti-cheat technology
in a biometric player verification system.
We started this journey to stop the plague of cheating
and creating a level playing field for all.
Awesome, thank you very much.
I am, yeah, just call me Annie.
I appreciate the invites.
So I'm the head of Ethlizards and Lizard Labs,
the studio that has been around for a couple of years now,
We are one of the OG investor communities
and recently in 2023 took the decision
to begin building our own gaming
and gamified experiences.
So we began with a partner project with Alluvium
called Battle and the Beyond.
It's a fully live gaming platform.
around half of the top 25 studios in the sector,
building out minigames and metagames.
Super excited to join the panel, though.
Awesome, thank you very much.
You can just call us NFL Rivals.
We were all into the X game to get the actual name.
I'm Jonathan from the Community Marketing
on NFL Rivals, built by Mythical Games,
where we are trying to build the future
So we at NFL Rivals are live.
we went live April last year in 2023
So download us from Google Play or the App Store.
Those are our fans of American football.
That's the one with the helmets and the touchdowns,
not the one where you pick a ball around for 90 minutes,
You can download the game and choose your favorite team
and build your dream team lineup
by collecting NFTs of your favorite player cards
and buying and selling and treating them
with your fellow players.
It's by the NFL Blitz at NFL Street.
So I'll get some back of that crypto fight.
But yeah, give us a download if you're interested
and join a free pack in, yeah.
Awesome, thank you for the intro.
Thank you so much for having us.
I feel like me, James, NFL Rivals, and Cyber League
are gonna be chasing each other into this place.
They would just had one together.
So yeah, we are building an action RPG.
The games that we are inspired in or inspired by
are Diablo and Avian Online.
Beyond, of course, adding our own twist onto the game.
That's just the games that our founders
got themselves inspired before designing their own game
and their idea behind it.
We've been building for a bit over two years
and I'm a GC Road Community Manager,
Slash Partnerships Manager,
also helping with a bit of marketing
in the Synergy LAN side of things.
Awesome, thank you, Vanar Chain.
My name is Travis, over at Vanar Chain.
We are an L1 for the billions
in the multimedia entertainment space.
We'll be launching our L1 here in the next couple months.
We've got a lot of really exciting partnerships,
a lot of really exciting things being built on the chain
and things coming down the line.
Smoke 3.io, are you with us?
Hello community, my name is Abhinav
and I am the co-founder at Hypermove.
So we are a blockchain-based gaming studio
where we are focusing on creating different genre of games
and the first game that we built and released last,
like the pre-alpha version we released last week itself
and we're getting great feedbacks over that as well.
So yeah, really excited for what's coming next,
like in the Game 4 universe
and what we can do to approach
and bring up more and more audience
So yeah, excited for the discussion.
Thank you for having me here.
Great, thank you very much.
Thank you all speakers for your introductions.
I'm gonna kick off our first topic.
So one of the things that I think is very, very interesting.
So I'm in the US and we have people from all around the world
and we kind of have, oh, you know what?
Abel is telling me I missed him.
Abel, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Yeah, no, I was also noticed.
Did Jardin introduce himself?
He's very distracted maybe.
He was a last minute ad, yes.
Pancho and Jordan will go.
Yeah, so I'm a software engineer, game designer
and CTO for FIX Gaming and we've released
and we are continuing the development of crypto fights.
And yeah, eager to discuss this subject with the panel
and thank you all for being here.
All right, thank you, Jardin.
Yo, thanks for catching me here.
Upcoming game takes place in 1850
at the discovery of a new continent
that the player base explores
and builds an entire new country on.
This game takes place in real time
on a full-scale continent where you move around
at 1850 speeds on the ground in first person.
So like you could spend weeks just traveling somewhere
but because of that, we can make an entire real economy
which you can participate in,
either become a business mogul
or you can just chill and vibe
in the really nice nature of surroundings
and you control your characters
just by telling them what to do, which is pretty cool.
Thank you, thank you for your intro
and thank you for being here as well.
So now that we've had all the introductions done, finally,
I'd like to start the first topic.
And so like I was saying,
we have people all around the world
and they kind of have, I think, different perspectives.
I'm talking about kind of the general population
of your country or your region
with Web3 Gaming and more specifically tokens.
I have a clip here from Yatsu.
He's the chairman of Anamoka
and he's actually gonna be talking about
the US versus Asia game studio.
So let's take a listen and then let's talk about it.
That's because of an American studio.
So one thing to understand is that a big narrative difference
between the US and Asia versus in the US
because of what's happening in the regulatory framework
and because of basically people being
from our perspective in the US,
it has a fairly strong anti-capitalist narrative,
And so crypto and NFTs represent basically
a digital kind of capitalism.
Many of the gamers in the US don't like it as a result of that,
even if they don't understand it.
Remember, when people criticize NFTs and crypto,
especially gamers in the US,
it's a very emotional response.
It's not a logical one, right?
Like at the end of the day, who cares if you own it or not?
Because it should be more value,
but the way they react isn't logical.
And that's one of the reasons why many of the US,
actually most of the US game company,
all the big ones are saying,
hey, we're not doing this, we don't like this.
And so it's being very careful.
In Asia on the other hand, it is actually very well adopted
in terms of the biggest game studios
the company behind Final Fantasy and Tomb Raider,
Sega, obviously everyone knows Sega,
Krafton, the creators of PUBG,
they're all embracing Web3.
They're all talking about NFTs,
they're all developing blockchain-based teams.
So I find that very interesting
because we have really, really big, big AAA studios.
We also do have, I would think, Ubisoft,
and I would like the audience or the speakers
to let me know if there's other ones that are AAA,
but they've seemed to be very, very hesitant
with embracing Web3, NFTs, and so on.
But he's saying basically Asia,
they're fully, fully into this
with big AAA studios in South Korea and whatnot
kind of embracing this technology.
So I'd like to kind of open up the floor
to give us your thoughts on why.
Why is there such disparity between these regions?
Yeah, so I can go ahead if no one else would like to start.
So yeah, I think first of all,
we need to think about the audiences, right?
Asia is really, really, really, really big on gaming.
We've seen them just continue growing in gaming numbers
the past few years, both mobile and PC.
And the studios just know the relation they have
with their audience, with their members.
It's really good overall,
at least from my perspective.
And from any, like in Web3, you also see that
whenever you talk to a community that's more Asia centered,
there's much more support, much more love,
much more people excited for it.
And if you go to a more US-based audience,
people are afraid because they're not sure.
Even if they might like the game,
they're afraid because of regulations.
And then if there's an air drop,
they might not be able to claim that these rewards,
they might not be able to participate.
If there's a token sale, they might qualify for technically,
then they're not able to, or they might be able to,
but have to do it on a hidden side of things, right?
So that makes it complicated for studios in US
to want to go deeper into it right now,
because although regulation is starting to get a bit better
it's still a dangerous waters to navigate, basically.
So I think that's, for me,
I think that's the major reason why we see that happening.
Anamota, Anamota, Annie, let me say that.
So in general, we tend to think from the e-closer standpoint
that Asia is much more likely to be the place
where major adoption really begins to take shape
in the web through gaming space.
There's a few reasons for this.
Certainly, I think Yatsu's take is a solid one.
The general perspective from a regulatory standpoint,
from a consumerism standpoint is more negative in the West.
And it's not just true in the US,
it's also true to varying degrees
in most parts of Europe as well that you would visit.
Asia though, if you look at the way
their gaming ecosystem has evolved,
I tend to think that many cultures base what they value
on things that they don't have as much.
And so when you look at what typical Asian markets
they're much more open to monetization in gaming.
The concept of sort of whales being these negative players
that are creating problems for the ecosystems
is often prevalent in Western cultures and gaming,
much less so in the East and in much parts of Asia.
And so the reverse is also true often
where you're gonna see a lot more focus
on heavy, heavy requirements,
only competitive in for a gameplay
is gonna be highly valued in much other parts of the West.
And I think that tends to lend itself
to why do we see very different approaches
to monetization and sort of the,
let's say the hyper monetization of finances in gaming
and why is that much more appreciated
in the East than in the West?
I do think that history has shown us the US
and other similar parts of the world
may not be the first to market with the tech.
We saw this with the internet, for instance,
but they will be fast followers.
And oftentimes, you wait to see
sort of the regulatory processes,
the infrastructure scale up,
and it can actually be pretty negative
in the early days of a new industry like that,
But what you'll see is a year or two after
you begin to see more mainstream adoption
in other parts of the world,
that all of a sudden changes very quickly
because no one wants to fall behind
in a global arms race for emerging technologies
Yeah, I think that Yasu's take is,
but basically the way I see it,
it's either the reasons for this,
like this discrepancy, if there is one
between the adoption on the East and the West,
I think that it's probably either due to economic reasons
And I think that Yasu's take is pointing
towards the cultural reasons.
And I don't know, I mean, I don't,
this is not a very fleshed out thought or position,
but I think that there's probably some reason why
there is more regulatory friction in the West
rather than in the East, right?
Because since we have the dollar
as like a sort of global standard,
it does make sense for the US to be more cautious
that someone was using that expression.
So I do think that that fear is probably,
has some sense and at the same time,
like that probably then bleeds down into the culture.
So maybe we ourselves are having a more capitalist
averse view and that maybe is causing the West
to fall a bit behind on this adoption
because those same restrictions aren't in place in the East.
So it's just a random thought, I don't know if it's accurate.
Well, I wanna actually add on that
because the SEC and kind of what's going on with Coinbase
and if you actually in the US and you go
kind of talk to lawyers, they actually,
this is kind of a more of an opinion
going through some of the process of kind of looking
into this just compliance part of it
is there's not really a kind of clear roadmap
or a clear compliant way for a US based company
to kind of do these things.
It's always kind of a business risk decision.
So like you're gonna do this,
but something might come down in a year from now
that will affect your business
and it could be a essentially a huge threat to it.
For example, somehow, what we call a utility token
is all of a sudden a security
and now you have to go through some compliance measure
to become compliant, which is probably gonna take
six to 12 months and hundreds of thousands,
that you just never know we're gonna happen
where I think and maybe someone else
in the speaker network knows,
but there's other countries that are actually creating
I guess legislation or some kind of compliant method
And I think really, if anyone has Netflix
seeing like the last Bitcoin and the ICO craze,
like just went hyperbolic
and you had just really bad actors in there
and we need to protect, I guess the market from that,
but at the same time, it seems like we're in the US,
we're just kind of fighting over who gets the authority
to regulate it and just not know what it is.
I mean, even talking to the lawyers personally
and accountants, they like really don't understand it
because they think it's all a kind of a payment,
where sometimes like we look at it as,
well, no, it's NFTs, it's like game items,
it's like programming, it's different.
So I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of that going on
that maybe we're just not as technically inclined
and I feel like as a US-based game project ourselves,
we've kind of taken the strategy of,
the SEC can sue you if the SEC wants to sue you,
it's not about the Howey test,
it's not about the specific regulations, right?
It's like if they look in your direction
So what you can do is basically wrap yourself
in as much protection as possible
and don't make yourself an easy fish to catch, right?
You know, there's games out here,
there's NFT projects sitting up talking about,
hey, you buy my NFTs, our company is gonna moon,
you're gonna own a piece of that,
you're all gonna make a million dollars,
like maybe don't do that, right?
Like it's easy to not do that
and there's many more rounds of legal production
I also have a 60 something year old hyper, hyper, hyper,
cautious forensic accountant on our core team at Eureka,
who has developed a kind of specific pathway for us.
And I'll say if he can be convinced
that there's a safe way to do this
and put himself on the line, you know, I trust it.
Hyper move, I see your hand up and yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, so I totally agree with Jordan's points.
And yeah, in my point of view as well,
like what I feel that when you talk about the Eastern market,
like a lot of brands like Animoca or Sky Davis,
they, you know, like lead the way with games,
like they brought a lot of games in the market
and they are like also being as a lead investor,
they lead the path to make the game very popular.
But when you talk about the US market,
there are a lot of regulatory changes
and then you have the market barriers
and then you have the disrupted stemming
from unsustainable business models.
And I feel that those things, like those cases,
you know, like provide hinder to the mainstream adoption
to a certain gaming sector.
So what I feel in my opinion is to overcome
those obstacles, there should be a team
and there should be a unit of experts
which suggest on focusing on seamless gaming experience
and addressing issues like the friction
of the cryptocurrency where people can believe
that the Web3 is a gaming,
Web3 is a lot much growing community
and we are like being founders and being co-founders,
we are like able to, you know,
like bring a lot of changes in the market.
So yeah, it's all about like what type of game
you are like bringing up in the coming time.
And it's just a matter of time
and in the coming time as well,
like US market and the audience and the players of US
will be also like adopting to the same environment
as the Chinese and the Asian market are doing.
See, I wanna kind of do a little contrast.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, Jordan,
I feel like you're kind of proving my point
is that you're taking this,
like it makes you like super cautious.
You have to like, you know, just the,
if you think of the cost of compliance
for a new project that there's not like clear guidance,
you know, they have to go hire a three figure,
maybe sometimes four figure lawyer per hour
this is how you have to design your product
and you have to make a business decision
if, you know, if things change or, you know,
if you moon and it becomes a big project
well, if the SEC wants to go ask you, they can't,
I think it also depends on,
I mean, for example, they're not gonna go after
I talked to another project that is actually,
they're not necessarily the US,
but they're going through to be actually a security
and they're just going through
a different country's regulation.
We did a similar thing in the US actually,
we registered our token as an exempt security
following some existing case precedent.
So we're safe on that now.
But did you get a like a new action letter?
No, but we were completely approved
through like form D for our token.
So like we're in a raise right now
and we're just doing it as a direct token sale
because we can do that now
because we went through this process.
It involves some rulings around secondary sales
Okay, so, well, that's actually very interesting to me
because I don't think I've heard of that.
Has any other speaker kind of heard of that method of?
We kind of came up with it ourselves.
I'd love to, I'm sure someone else is doing it as well.
It's not that revolutionary.
Can you actually just elaborate a little bit more
So I can't go into the hard specifics on it right now
part of the reason that it works
is you have multiple entities
and one of them, it's part of their business basically
to like part of their normal functioning of their business
to launch tokens and then have them registered
So we're actually basically launching this.
We tested it out ourselves.
It all worked really well
and we're preparing right now to offer this as a service
to other projects, which is one cool
because like you're saying, spend $10,000 on lawyers,
we can offer advice on this and undercut that price
and provide something that people actually really wanna know
and but too, it's actually kind of like an important part
of the safety of doing it
is that it's something that we actually do.
Anyway, more info soon is what I'd say.
But Annie, why don't you go ahead and I see your hand up.
and without you railing us too far into it,
I'd be curious, Jordan, is your token then
because it sounds like you're indicating
you've registered as a security,
is it generally going to be ERC 20 or whatever chain
you're on just available via whatever combination
of DEXs and centralized exchanges?
I mean, so we have actually like in Eureka,
a very specific mechanic for our token liquidity,
which is it pairs one to one with the gold nugget,
which is like the core thing in Eureka
And so every time a player pulls a gold nugget
its pair token is released from lockups.
Like the supply is completely created by players.
So the mechanics a little bit different there.
Yeah, but what's the next step though?
So the ERC 20 or whatever protocol it's on gets released,
but where does it get released and where is it traded?
Oh yeah, that'll just be on a DEX first.
It'll seem totally normal.
So this is still counterintuitive to the lawyers
that I've talked with because usually if it is a security,
you can't just sell it to anybody, right?
So you can't, but a secondary entity can.
Okay, so direct issuance you're not doing,
you're getting another entity-
The game did not make the token.
The game acquired the token from the entity
But then it's the entity that controls the token,
owns the token, able to sell it.
It doesn't have them anymore.
100% of the tokens are now actually a tertiary sell.
It's a flowchart question.
Yeah, it's a flowchart question.
I'm actually very interested.
I'm very happy to chat with you.
I don't need to PG the whole combo.
It's actually organically flowing
exactly where I wanted to go.
But I think the main point I wanna make
is that we as US based projects really need this
because I think it's going to unlock
so much investment capital
it almost feels a little bit like crowdfunding.
And a lot of these projects with what Yasu says,
like the US based AAA studios,
I think are on the sidelines because of the uncertainty
in the regulatory environment.
And also probably maybe even the stigma,
And then when these studios in other countries
actually put their products out to market and do well,
And so, and then I think it's gonna really, really be like,
you know, adapt or die moment, potentially.
At least that's what I hope it will be.
And then I think if the US based projects
have kind of a really clear roadmap
to being able to have a token that can provide,
I mean, you gotta think of it.
It is somewhat of a fundraising thing,
but it's not even really like fundraise.
Like, you know, people wanna buy NFTs before the game's out
or even when the game's out,
it's really just a digital asset.
If it's a kind of a virtual currency kind of concept,
but people wanna buy it and they wanna kind of trade it.
Now this actually happens already in web two.
So they have these kind of,
I call them black market sites,
but for example, if anyone plays World of Warcraft,
you can buy the gold off the game, right?
And then they actually have kind of like,
it's almost like barter systems,
but with, you know, some of them are with cash
and sometimes they do it with other things,
but there's actually like eBay style sites
that facilitate these trades in a very inefficient way.
And I feel like web three is just this super efficient way
globally for all of our digital assets to be tradable,
even across like, you know, protocols and whatnot.
So I think that's, I'm hoping in the next year or two
that we get a lot more kind of guidance
and clear language on kind of what to do with this,
because, you know, if these major studios
in other countries are doing that, you know,
the US based projects are just gonna fall behind
because we just, we can't be as kind of agile
and, you know, fast to market like they can.
So anyways, that's a little bit of a, I don't know,
feel bad for the US, you know,
because of all the crap we have to go through, so,
but I think this flows well into one of my other topics here
on actually like token pumping.
So I'm gonna play a little clip.
Alex Becker, I found him on YouTube.
He's kind of a YouTube influencer.
He's on Twitter and stuff like that, but take a listen.
All right, let's cut to the chase.
You're not here to be reasonable.
You see everybody here in crypto making these huge gains
and you think to yourself,
how can I make two, five, 10,
because you're a piece of like me.
How can I do this in crypto too?
And all I gotta do is smile,
because if you listened to my last video,
you'd already have these, look at the charts.
You should have listened,
but I have good news for you Padawan,
my wee scrawny unfed lad.
These 20, 30, 50X gains are still on the table,
but the time where you can actually get positioned
to take advantage of these, it's close enough.
You see, if we're going to get a bull run,
this is probably the last chance to get in position.
And look, I know you're probably frothing
because you see these Bitcoiners
celebrating these 10% gains, 10% gains.
It's like going five miles per hour
in your mother's minivan.
In this video, oh, in this video,
I hope you have your adult ad blocker off
and I hope you're not in Dubai.
Just watching this stuff there.
So this reminds me so much if, again,
the dumb money, if anyone remembers the GameStop saga
and kind of all the things that went with it, for example.
As for me, I like the stock.
You know, like just the whole thing
that happened with GameStop and the ICO craze
and whatnot, I mean, we have basically people,
influencers that are pumping tokens, right?
And I think this is probably where,
if I was a regulator, that I would look at that
because you're essentially, you know,
you're selling, you're marketing
and kind of promoting these tokens as a way to get rich.
And you know, we all agree that this happened.
I believe we all agree that this all,
you know, we see this all the time.
And, you know, if they want to protect, you know,
just regular average Joe, you know, from losing money
and from bad actors and whatnot, you know,
there's kind of the problem.
But I guess my question is,
with kind of all of the sorted paths that we've had,
what do you think about kind of all these influencers
that are kind of pumping tokens this way?
We were talking about, don't be low hanging fruit
it sounds like a space full of financial advice to me.
Well, that's kind of my point is,
is this, this is everywhere.
You know, I don't even know if Alex is in the US.
He probably isn't, but you know, it's just,
but it doesn't matter, right?
You know, it's, it's, it's kind of what people see and,
but it's, I kind of want to take it from the,
kind of the US perspective or not,
but I mean, just in general,
I mean, if you imagine this and it just keeps going like this,
it's essentially kind of like another,
It just feels like another kind of game stop
where everything's going to just,
it's a pump and dumps all the time, you know?
NFL rivals, I see your hand up.
Why don't you go, just jump in.
Yeah, I mean, I can't say too much about tokens
with this NFL shield up here,
if you're promoting your token
and you're not promoting your product,
I'd say you've already lost.
You should be promoting something people want to use.
It will become a part of their life.
And the token just follows naturally.
And when Jordan said, yeah,
don't, don't beat a giant red bullseye
for the SEC to pile drive you.
And I mean, I think, you know,
the influencers that pump a token
and especially if the projects are like originate,
you know, outside of the US,
but they're still US people that buy, you know,
these tokens on these, you could say on the exchanges,
but then you have kind of DeFi and whatnot.
And I think that's, I don't even know.
I don't even know how I feel about this.
I feel like some of it is just because it's so new
if you kind of look at from the human perspective,
you know, we have inflation to worry about,
you know, we have kind of stock markets that,
you know, with the whole,
I would really, if you haven't watched dumb money
and just do it, because it's just how rigged
a lot of the, in the air quote, legit markets are.
And in maybe the wild West markets,
maybe, you know, there's more opportunity,
you know, for people and obviously a lot more risk,
but for me, I'm probably would lean more on, you know,
let's just try to get the bad actors out,
especially in our community is call them out.
I've actually seen a couple of places that will call out,
you know, just complete frauds, you know,
sometimes mostly on LinkedIn
because they were trying to do business with them,
but, you know, I see gas boat in here.
I'm actually curious if you want to be a speaker,
I think, you know, we need to kind of clean up
some of this stuff where, well, like what NFL rival say,
you know, the product is really why,
if it's going to have utility is why
you would want to buy the token.
You know, I always look at like a Chuck E. Cheese
If you have an arcade that has, you know,
just really exciting entertainment games and so on,
but you need to buy this token,
you need to convert your Fiat dollar to,
you know, four tokens or whatever it is,
you know, you want to do that
because you can use them to go do something.
But, you know, then you see like maybe a press release that,
you know, a new, I don't know,
neural link virtual reality games
going to come out in this arc,
only this arcade exclusively,
and everyone would buy these tokens and shoot up the price
because of so much demand, you know,
to get with limited supply of seats,
for example, that experience.
Like that's kind of where I think,
and I'd like to get your thoughts on
where I think web through gaming should go
because it's not really like a share of the game, right?
It's really that this is what the game uses
So does anybody have any thoughts on that?
I think their big challenge is frankly,
this term token that we use
and all of the meanings that follow, right?
If you think about what people consider
when they say tokens in web three,
it's everything from sort of non-financialized governance,
you know, utility items to in-game currency,
to shares of equity in an organization of some kind,
to dividend paying products,
to store value and money-ness and so forth.
And, you know, I think one of the beautiful things
that just Bitcoin in general unlocked for the industry
is there's virtually unlimited use cases for the tech, right?
We have this decentralized structure and framework.
You can now very quickly spin up a token
to do effectively whatever you want, right?
We open sourced coding to make these objects
that you can now fully verify who owns them.
The use cases are literally limitless here.
that immediately conjures a whole bunch of different ideas
and probably all of our minds,
but there's no set of standards for what we mean
and what the utility and use case of those are.
Obviously, anyone that's here in the space, I'm sure,
has been around long enough to know financial applications
were the first that were really developed with the token.
And I think that's led to enough builders coming in
to now you have other utility that's being derived
and being built with them.
But I don't think we have a good way
of talking about this yet, right?
If we go and talk about stocks and equity,
most people have a pretty good understanding of what that is,
but it's taken decades to build that up, right?
And we understand when I say, you know, a dollar,
there's a few key elements that go into
what make a dollar a dollar in terms of, you know,
store of value and medium of exchange and so forth.
We don't have any of those types of language
to talk about tokens yet, because right now,
it's sort of an all of the above category.
And I think projects are iterating on all of these ideas.
I firmly believe it's gonna take another five to 10 years
for the system to really become stable enough
for us to see different positive use cases of tokens
to where we now have different sort of classes
of tokens that we think about, right?
What's the sort of equity token structure for a Dow
versus, you know, what's an in-game currency?
You know, just like my WoW Gold,
you mentioned a little bit ago, I think, Adam,
that, you know, we don't have an issue with WoW Gold, right?
No one has a problem recognizing
that you might have another currency
that you're purchasing in a gamified experience.
It gets really muddy though, when you have a token
that's that plus it's a governance token,
plus there's, you know, financial incentives
in terms of like dividend structures
and revenue distributions and so forth.
So I think we need to eventually, as an industry,
get to the point where there's more sort of generally
understood and accepted classes of types of tokens.
The regulatory framework actually, I think,
is gonna help with this over time,
but it's not going to be an easy road to get there.
And it's not gonna be within the next year or two.
It's going to take probably five, seven, 10 years
before things really become firm.
And we then can use the same language
to understand specifically what we're talking about
Yeah, that's interesting, you know,
basically an industry-led kind of definition
of all of these different things.
And it's true, I think we're still really experimenting,
you know, with business models and tech.
When I really got into this, 2017, 2018,
just the, what do you call it?
I guess like the infrastructure type layer
wasn't really built yet for a lot of what we're doing now.
And now when we wanna go and do like blockchain stuff,
you know, we originally had, you know,
basically people dedicated to just, you know, on that layer.
And now I can go and find companies that will, you know,
just do these things to an API.
And so now, you know, our developer,
like how our team is structured is very different
because now we can kind of almost outsource
a lot of these things to be a lot easier
and just think of them as an API
or some kind of connection to the tech.
So if you think of like Alchemy, for example,
like, you know, we actually had,
they don't even have it yet, but we were on Bitcoin SV.
So we had to run a node that had to kind of index things.
And it just, in a long story short,
it became like extremely expensive
to kind of manage and maintain and whatnot.
And, you know, I think with regards to like these tokens,
I mean, that was actually one of the things
we had to kind of index a lot of the transactions
And I'm like, you know, we can't regulate
or understand what we're doing yet
if we're still like trying to figure out
how to like do this at scale.
So I think that's a good point.
In terms of how long it's going to take,
God, that's hard, that's a long way to wait
for it to all be kind of a shaked out
But I do hope that we get there,
at least I think I'm probably more worried about opportunity,
you know, for us is to make sure that we have
the same opportunity that, you know,
all these other countries have, you know,
to kind of bring these projects and innovate and whatnot.
So why don't we move into our last topic
since we're almost to the hour.
And so I'm going to bring Yatsu again
and just really about the kind of the potential
of web3 gaming and really should web3 games
So let me go ahead and play this and here we go.
So you see very high quality games already coming
and they're just going to get better.
And the moment will come where, you know,
the regular gamer is going to play a web3 game.
He's not even going to know or care that it's web3.
He's just going to have fun because it's just an amazing game.
And then he'll sort of realize, wait a second,
I'm actually able to potentially make money
or I can actually trade them, actually really own them.
And through that onboarding, you know,
they're going to start learning about sort of what it means
to own digital assets and actually gain
And remember, the fully web3 onboarded user
is one who has financial literacy,
who is able to make some kind of investment decisions,
who has an idea about their money and value,
which most of the world is not.
So, you know, the world that I think he's looking at
is really interesting because, you know,
like you're saying, you know, the five to seven years from now,
and we have, I mean, if we have over three billion gamers
and it's just really growing,
I think this might actually be 3.3 billion.
But I mean, imagine like, I don't know, like half of that.
You know, if we have billions of people in web3
that have tokens, have NFTs that are trading them.
I mean, this is huge. This is huge.
I mean, I think it's going to probably,
I mean, it's got to at least like double
the just gaming industry at least.
I mean, that's probably even super conservative,
but what's your thoughts on kind of the potential in that world
where we have figured these things out,
we figured out how to talk about them,
and it's become more accepted and maybe regulated
or it just kind of opens up the door for gaming to be this way?
Yeah, I don't, at least on a personal view here,
not even talking cynical and wise,
I don't think I even understand
or can fully see the potential that web3
will be able to reach out to.
I think we've barely reached like 10%, 15 maybe,
considering how new the space is.
And if you think about web2 games
and all that has came out in the past few years
after several, several years of development of that scene,
web3 is literally a baby, right?
So this is just the start
and to anyone that's not convinced of that,
stay tuned or take a break and come back in one, two, three years
and you see the difference in quality and everything going on.
I think it's going to be a really, really major shift
and major change in lots of things.
I think what we have now in terms of experience,
in terms of games that people can play
will be like 1%, 2% compared to what we have in five years.
And that's what I'm excited for.
I'm always excited for to find new projects,
building new products, making new things.
On-chain games make me super excited.
I think on-chain games will be a major play in the future
and it'll be really exciting mainly for super competitive games.
And maybe even these sports scenes,
I'm really, really always happy and fascinating
when I find new products, new teams, trying out new ideas,
which some of them might just go down the well
as most of the projects in web3 games and in gaming though,
well, most web2 gaming studios are not successful
and that's just how it is,
but there'll be a tiny percentage of us
which will become dark horses
and it'll be the major plays in web3
and I'm excited to see what we can come up with
and what kind of innovation we'll bring to the gaming scene.
NFL rivals, why don't you go?
Yeah, I was gonna say one of the tactics
that we really need to look at as a space
is presenting clear business cases to existing developers,
whether indie or like, you know,
giant interpolate corporate studio.
If you could separate out secondary revenue
from primary revenue, then you can show like,
okay, well, you know, here's the games that we saw.
From introducing a marketplace basically to the game
is what you're doing with web3
is you're letting people speculate on the value
and kind of like price discover collectively.
I mean, our pitch, so, you know,
in medical games we have with our marketplace,
our own chain, a whole ecosystem,
why we're doing all of that, I don't know,
but anyways, that's what we're doing
and so we're pitching game developers to come on board
and the top line figure that we're throwing people
is you'd see up to a 15% boost in revenue
by introducing web3 to the game
and so that's leading a lot of developers
to sit back in their chairs and think,
huh, okay, so this is real.
And we're able to immediately get secondary transactions
from our players, bring them in app,
which we're one of the first people to do on Android, iOS
and also we have our web marketplace,
but what developers are now,
now, at least from the conversations we're having,
developers are at least examining the games they have
and seeing which games would benefit most from marketplaces
and then they're gonna see a 15% bump on revenue floor.
So that, I think, is really the trick.
It's not always going to be like,
we have to build that right game.
A lot of it is also working with people that are there
and just making the business case to them
because players don't need to know
that they're holding a ton of tokens.
Players need to know that they have a game item
and if they can buy another one
and if they can sell theirs to another player,
that's all they need to know.
They don't even know the change,
they don't even know the gas fees,
they don't even need anything else.
And I think web 2K game developers can really help
and simulate this technology into the mainstream.
Annie, why don't you go and then Vinayar?
Vinayar, why don't you go after that?
I absolutely love what NFL said there.
It is a absolute truth that gamers
are not going to care about the underlying technology
and it's also true that they're going to be
literally billions of individuals
that would never touch a video game today
knowing that it's transitory, right?
It's this virtual world and you don't own anything
and when you're done playing, your stuff stays there.
There are many, many people who don't spend time gaming
or maybe they spend very, very minimal time gaming today.
And yet, if that changes and all of a sudden
it becomes just a virtual asset that you can own
that they absolutely would be open to that conceptually,
it changes the nature of the industry entirely
when you can have verified ownership of assets.
And we, again, as an industry, we're really way too early
to have shown the use cases to that
to sort of normal web 2 individuals.
We only have this sort of hardcore web 3 crowd
but that's a very short-term problem that we have.
That will quickly change.
I believe that as we continue to see the friction removed
and the need to understand all of these wallets
and blockchain tech and so forth,
that gets distracted away.
Players are absolutely going to come.
And so, as we look at the future,
yes, the future is for sure billions of users.
This is just another stage in tech
in the same way that I'm old enough to remember
And the idea of you getting to keep
your very own video game system
that you could play video games on at your house,
as opposed to having to go to an arcade,
was absolutely revolutionary.
And people thought it was terrible
because you were gonna have to pay thousands of dollars.
And these were dollars back in the 80s and 90s.
These were not 2024 dollars
that we all know are worth a lot less now
than they were even a few years ago.
That whole concept was really, really negative.
And my dad was in the tech industry at the time,
so I got to see this firsthand all the way through
the shifts as we move towards online gaming
And each one of these has been something
that the existing studios and the existing gamers
did not like because it was a change.
But when the advantages became very clear
and good teams built with the tech,
all of a sudden, it completely revolutionized the industry.
And we saw, we've seen now wave after wave
of this continue to challenge the status quo in gaming
to the point that, that has been mentioned,
we're at 3.3 billion gamers globally right now.
And this is the largest form of entertainment in the world.
It endorse all others now at this point.
And so this is only going to continue to grow.
For sure there's a premium that people are willing to pay
when they get to own their virtual assets.
We see that, I think NFL mentioned 50% premium.
We've seen 2X and 3X what a typical user is going to spend
on games, whether it's cosmetics or it's in-for-game content
versus equivalent web two studios because it's their own.
There's something different when you own the thing
than when you're basically just leasing it from a studio
and they can take it back at any point in time.
So very much we're on the right track.
We just have to give the teams time to build.
And over the next two, three, four years,
this is really going to come into focus
as the best use case for blockchain tech.
Great, Vener and then James.
Yeah, you know, I completely agree with what NFL rivals
and I'm going to pronounce this wrong,
Animosis, Animosotas said in that regard.
You know, to add on that, the current gaming industry
that the monetization model overall is broken.
We see a lot of gaming studios are bleeding money,
layoffs, you know, Riot, Microsoft, all these, you know,
gaming companies are doing layoffs
because that monetization model is broken.
I remember when, you know, the subscriptions in games
and the in-game purchases were coming around
and I had so many friends were like, this is so stupid.
I'm not paying for stuff in this game.
I'm not buying this stuff.
And every one of them were spending money buying it now.
Myself, I've got four kids.
I'm buying them stuff, stuff that doesn't even matter,
cosmetics, stuff like that, that doesn't matter
other than a visual appeal in their gaming experience.
And I'll say even as like a parent,
I'm going to be much more likely to purchase an item
for one of my kids when I know it can have
And I know that when they're done playing the game,
I can send it to my nephew.
They can send it to one of their buddies.
They can trade it for another type of skin
or another piece in another game.
Right now, when I buy, you know, a $10 or $20 Fortnite skin,
I know as soon as they turn off that computer
or that Xbox, that, you know, $10, $20 has poof,
If I had that ability to, you know,
to send that over to another account,
it would hurt a lot less, you know,
making those kinds of purchases and stuff for them.
And I think Web3 really can solve a lot
of these broken monetization issues in gaming
and can also open up gaming to a whole new market segment
and attract a whole new market segment of gamers
that may not have necessarily been interested
And James, would you like to go?
I think if the goal is Web2 mass adoption
and to get Web2 gamers to accept Web3 games and play them,
a part of what you played in your original clip
was that the gamers don't even realize that it's Web3.
that blockchain technology is underlying it.
And I think what's going to happen is over time,
the obstacles, the barriers of entry, the wallets,
the seed phrases, which blockchain it's on,
all that's going to fade into the background.
And I think the narrative is going to change.
Right now, if I'm playing a Web2 game
and a developer of that game thinks I cheated in the game,
they could potentially lock all my assets
and all my upgrades and all my leveling up
and everything I did in the game is just gone instantly.
What if blockchain technology?
What if all this Web3 becomes nothing more
than the transparent ledger that all this is backed up on?
And if gaming is actually more secure, if it's more safe,
because with blockchain technology underlying a game,
it's fully transparent and they can look at it.
They can see as these items change hands.
You have ownership of your assets in the game
in a way the developer can't just take it away from you.
That would make the gamer feel more secure
with blockchain technology underlying it
instead of, oh, that's just a scam.
I don't want to be a part of that.
And I think that narrative will have to evolve that direction
where the stuff fades in the background
for that mass adoption to occur.
Jordan, I see your hand up.
If you could just make a real quick closing thought on that,
and then we're going to invite the or start the next segment
Oh, yeah. Real quick closing thought is,
I completely agree with what everyone's saying about
we don't own any of this, and they can take it from us
that it's all subscriptions and it all sucks.
But I think it's a little bit of a Web3 gaming trap
that there is not a single point that I hear more traditional gamers
say, like, I don't care about owning it, I've never owned any of this.
It doesn't matter. It's not relevant.
I think we can change their minds
and it can become the new accepted default once we do it.
But I think it's really important that anyone building in Web3 gaming
is focusing on a lot of other benefits of it outside of just like,
hey, isn't this amazing that you can own your assets?
So I'm going to take a quick intermission
while we get our next set of speakers for the second segment.
And while we're waiting for the next speakers,
if you could actually retweet and quote, retweet the space,
we can get some other listeners in here and much appreciated.
So let's get our second segment started.
I have some good, good, good topics to talk about and welcome our new speakers.
So let's get, let me actually get the list here.
Andrew, would you like to do a quick intro?
Yeah, hey, guys, thanks for having me.
I'm a business development executive at Pulsar.
AI, we solve for discoverability across the Web3 ecosystem.
And we're gearing up for our PFP launch and our token launch
end of February and subsequently thereafter.
But excited to be here and thanks for having me.
Haunted Space, would you like to do a quick intro?
Hey, guys, it's a pleasure to meet you.
I'm Alessio, a core team member of Galaxy Games and Haunted Space.
And we are building an ecosystem of games that wants to connect Web3 user base
to the Web3 gamers in an interconnected ecosystem.
Happy to join today and let's have a talk.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
This is Termi at MetaRides CEO.
We are building interoperable Metaverse ready vehicles to be used
inside our game that is in beta and our network of worlds of Metaverse worlds.
We've got MetaRides radio, which plays music in every single car and garage.
And listen, I've said in many spaces, just real quick, great space.
When it was an average space, but your space has been spot on for the last,
I don't know, half hour, hour or whatever that I've been listening.
So appreciate the space for sure.
Yeah, I hope to keep getting it better.
It's just going to keep getting better.
Justin, would you like to do a quick intro?
I am the head of community at Ancient 8 and also a part of the business
development team as well, a brief intro about Ancient 8.
We're building an ETH gaming layer two that is built utilizing OP stack.
And we have a suite of Web 3 gaming infrastructure tooling, including space
3.GG, which is our game publishing platform that now has over 140,000
registered users on the platform.
And we work with over 80 games on the platform as well.
So great to be here with you guys and looking forward to the chat today.
And let me just make sure.
So we should have a couple more speakers coming in and run a little late,
but I want to go ahead and kick it off.
Um, I am going to play a clip and then I'm going to ask a question because I can't,
I have two clips from the same person.
I don't know which is which unfortunately.
So I'm going to play that and let's listen.
And it's interesting because I, I think the market overall is not that heated.
And so it's, uh, I, I almost think it's very clear that the next full run is going
to be driven by this thesis.
The next hundred million users is going to come from games in Web 3 and it's going
to triple Web 3's use of A7ite and people are almost realizing that's where it's
going to be in a front running or accelerating that, that our performance
So it's, it's a very interesting trend.
I think what it will do is we'll see slightly more interest from, uh, Web 2
studios, uh, but they'll, they've already been engaged and they'll continue to
engage some of them may try and create more tokens, more early sales, but really
what it's also doing is a tremendous amount more of startups and, uh, India
studios attempting to build Web 3 games right now, which is exceptional.
So that was, uh, Robbie Ferguson from, um, immutable X and, you know, they've
been having quite a run, um, and you know, with that clip, you know, the, the
next hundred million users, he actually, uh, in that talk, he talks about a lot
of the, uh, the game studios and game developers that are on their own system.
And a lot of the other games that are going to be coming out, uh, some this
year and some next year, um, you know, but I think kind of the big question
is, is kind of the next bull run and kind of web three gaming and the
sense of could be look at it as with tokens with, um, new higher quality
game content coming out, um, web two studios coming in, uh, I'm curious
from the speakers here, uh, what their thoughts are on, you know, what's
going to bring in, I don't know, even like 10 million more gamers, you know,
cause on the last bull run and correct me if I'm wrong, but I, you know, I
think is axie infinity really the, the, the, the top dog in terms of just
players, uh, to a game right now.
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I don't know if there's another one
that has done that many, um, I guess at once and then obviously related to
a token and got a lot of traction.
And I know there's, you know, there's other games that I've gotten a lot
of downloads, uh, but, but just, what do you think the next kind of bull
run is going to look like?
Anybody have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I'll jump in real quick.
Um, so first of all, I agree with what he's saying, what scares me a little
bit is that every, and I'm going to kind of do a little twist on your question.
What scares me a little bit is that the smaller studios, the ones that might
not necessarily understand gaming, I think with those statements, they're
going to assume that they're going to win based on the fact that, you know,
gaming is going to take over web three and be the, you know, the mass adoption
play, but I also feel like there's going to be so many games that it's going to
be watered down and it's going to make it even more difficult to win, in my opinion.
So that's one of the things that we're hyper-focused on at MetaRise is just
really focusing on a different approach on the assets, making sure that the
assets work inside our game, plus inside other worlds, that interoperability
for us is going to be huge.
So I think that that's something that you've got to really, you know, figure
out your lane and stay in it pun intended, I guess.
Um, it's really important to make sure that you're, you know, not just assuming
because the market's winning that you're going to win.
I think that's going to be something that people miss the mark on.
We've always seen, you know, the big, the big kind of momentum leader, uh,
fall behind because, and I think, you know, our industry is super, super dynamic.
Um, you know, immutable X has almost kind of, they're locked into their
blockchain and their token in a way, you know, and their, and their ecosystem.
And they almost feel like another wild garden in a way, but, um, but they do
have tons and tons of capital.
They raised, uh, was it 270 million now or over 200 million?
I know their last round was, was I think 200.
So, I mean, they have quite a bit of a war chest and they also have, you know,
probably their token, which is not included in that.
So, um, you know, they do have the money to figure it out as well.
I know you're a late addition to the speaker.
Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and give us your thoughts.
Hope you're all well, uh, quick plug where a games media company, we cover
content and stuff in the gaming space.
Uh, we help with top funnel and outreach and a bunch of other things.
Um, my comments on this, I am going to be a little bit cynical and begin by saying
that if we are to look at on change activity for a lot of these games, it's
very easy to be misled by that.
Um, we've seen it previously with the wave of, uh, layer ones that were
competing with the theorem where these figures were banded around quite often.
And most of the time, uh, it became obvious that one wallet was not one user.
So if we're looking at a growth within the gaming ecosystem, I think we need to
ditch that metric and just come to the conclusion that most of the time, most
of the wallets interacting with these games are not one user.
It could be one user actually operating a civil attack or a bot farm where there's
10,000 wallets interacting with this game to arbitrage an opportunity.
So that's a real issue within these, uh, downloads is an interesting metric to
look at, but I think again, it's probably difficult to discern actual, uh,
uptick, uh, I'm going to be a little contrary in here and say that the biggest
onboarded into gaming, this cycle is going to be the same as last cycle and
the same before that and the same before that.
And that's simply a raging bull market.
That's always been the biggest onboarded to anything web three.
I don't think it's going to change at least not yet.
And I'm just curious on, uh, if it's a bull market, are you kind of pointing
to the, um, kind of like, I'm in it to make money.
It's not really the game, uh, type of audience.
Uh, that definitely, and also the case that that also gets more people
talking and thinking and looking.
So it will bring in some more folks who might not necessarily
be in it for the money, but it is that economic incentive or that economic
opportunity that initially gets a huge flow of people into the space.
Uh, but I'd like to see a time where that does change.
I'm not holding my breath immediately.
It kind of reminds me of like a gold rush.
You know, everyone's there to go mine gold, but all of us are kind
of like the shops like around it.
So like ax if any is the gold mine and like, Hey, Hey, we have an arcade
here, do you want to go play this one too?
But, uh, yeah, I think that's actually a good point.
You know, if there's a lot of money to be me, uh, be made, then, you know,
a lot of people are going to come in and essentially it's advertising for
all of the other projects that are out there.
Um, you know, we have sites like, um, I think it's like play to earn.net.
Uh, you know, they list all these different games and, um, I'm sure
there's probably a lot more.
There is crypto ad networks out of kind of spot, uh, are brought up over the
last, I don't know, probably five years that, um, are all kind of
catering towards this market.
So it's very, very interesting, uh, point haunted space.
Uh, so, uh, I think that's something near what, uh, BSCN mentioned, uh, but
I think that the biggest, uh, gold rush, let's say, as, as already being
done, the last bull run, you know, so I think that during this bull run,
uh, the topics will be a little bit different, uh, and people understand
that we need more quality games instead of just, uh, you know, unsustainable
rewards, uh, uh, you mentioned to the, you know, the X infinity space.
Uh, so I think that these words, uh, uh, just the, the base layer, an
introduction to the potential of the blockchain and the wet tree gaming
industry, uh, what I believe now is that we can do things in a better way,
in a more sustainable way, and definitely focus more on the quality of the product
and the gaming experience inside the game, because on one side, yes, you
can attract some users with, uh, monetization models that are a little
bit aggressive and stuff like that.
But if you want to keep them in the ecosystem, you need to give them a real
experience and not just the promise of making a $10 with a one hour gameplay.
You know, so there's the, there is another layer that is, uh, has been
headed in the, in this phase.
Uh, and, uh, in this bull run, I think we will see, um, some big games that
will pop up and we'll do something like, uh, you know, uh, call of duty,
but on the wet tree, uh, we can see something like that.
Uh, and I can see that definitely in, uh, uh, multiplayer games, obviously,
uh, that can have, uh, faster interactions between the gamers.
So like, uh, FPS, uh, uh, space battles.
So like, for example, I'm talking about, uh, our, our project, for example,
that, uh, we'll work in that area, but there are also many other regions where
people can interact very fast, one with each other, also gambling side.
Uh, but yeah, definitely the user experience will be in the first
place, at least for, for my side.
You know, having, uh, like a call of duty type, type game.
I mean, it's interesting because, you know, I remember the earlier games,
uh, and they kind of got a, you know, we have a winner guys, and then they
kind of recycle the, the method.
Um, and they, I almost like reskin it or, or, and kind of put like a little twist
on it, but it's, it's kind of a formula.
Same way they do, I think with, with movies, uh, with a lot of these games.
Um, but I mean, they are fun, you know, that's why we play them.
You know, the, sometimes the gun play is really good.
Like they've really done really well on certain things within the game.
I think web three it's, you know, when I think of web three, I don't really think
of that, I think that's just kind of like being a good, um, uh, like video
As you're making fun games.
Um, and then web three, I feel like it really kind of changes
up how you design the game.
Like it offers a lot more, uh, options, uh, you know, new options that didn't
exist and that's probably where the risk is and why we're in it, right?
The early adopters and why they're not in it, the big studios.
And so if we have, you know, any developers that, um, are going to come in
or, and actually I've seen, I can't name them, but I think I've seen, uh, a bunch
of, uh, you know, just triple a studio veterans have started, I think isn't
shrapnel, one of those, I think they had a bunch of, uh, people from triple
a studios, like they're like, Hey, you know, this is the future.
We want to try to make something like really, really cool.
But, you know, I think the problem is, is to get to that level of quality, at
least the way that I understand it is, I mean, we're, you got to measure that in
years, um, and you know, when I listened to kind of Robbie Ferguson, he has a lot
of these like really heavily invested games that I think he said, um, there
might be like one or two coming out this year, but I think it wasn't till like
2025, um, there's gonna be a lot more coming out.
And so what do you have like two to three years, maybe they've been developed.
Um, you know, and so I think that all kind of comes with the capital, having
a really good team and raising a bunch of money and then, you know, and then
also making it web three, when the investors are basically like placing a
big bet that, you know, in 2025, 2026 and so on, this is going to be kind of the
hot market and we're all, you know, uh, the web two gamers are going to, you
know, enjoy that, um, you know, I know, uh, in our last segment, uh, NFL rivals
was there and that's by mythical and they raised hundreds of millions of dollars.
I mean, they would like to do well, but I mean, they had, you know, uh, industry.
Uh, experience kind of, uh, producers and whatnot.
Um, I know immutable did that.
They got people from wizards of the coast, making their gods unchanged and
whatnot, and you know, it's, it kind of comes back to that it's a hit-driven
business, you know, if your game really hits, um, what's that new game?
just came out, it's going viral and they sold like 3 million copies in the first day. Somebody
shouted out if you know it. Is it, what is it called, Play?
Power World, yes, yes, thank you. I wasn't close on that, but Power World, they just
went completely viral and they're making like $100 million or whatever just from the initial
sale of the game and then they can continue monetizing that and that has obviously no
I think that's kind of an interesting question for myself, is really kind of what is it going
to look like that really hits hard like a Call of Duty and goes viral like that on the
Web 3 side. Hana Space, let's hear your thoughts.
Okay, so regarding that, I think that on top of obviously having a good game, you have
to go with much more sustainable stuff inside the game, so you need to do the proper balances
between tokens. If you use some of them or NFTs, you can overproduce these assets and
flute the market with these assets because obviously they will be used inside the game.
So we saw many projects selling tons of NFTs that then dropped because they basically overinflated
the market and this is our initial point. The other point, I think, to create something
that can be massive is an easy to onboard system. So we saw games focused just on the
Web 3 market. So you need, for example, a wallet to connect, you need a token that's
on chain to pay and stuff like that. This is a very big limit and we announced Space,
but also many others are understanding this. We need to go with like a web to look and
a Web 3 use of the data that we can get from this, you know, from this gaming experience
and new technology that we have. So we need to mix these two thing out in the proper way
and get the best, but without damaging the user experience. So if you can log in into
a game with a few limitations and less friction, it would be easy to have a big, you know,
open the game in all the world.
Thanks. Yeah, all good. I think that's actually a mutable. I think a lot of people are working
on better onboarding and I think I think we're practically there. We just got to start doing
it that way. Abel, why don't you go ahead and give us your thoughts.
Yeah, maybe Andrew can talk first. I can wrap up before we change subjects. Maybe when you
Yeah, I was just saying I've been in many of these spaces and I'm really pleased to
hear the consensus is the Web 3 primitives, the fact that you can use an NFT to own your
in-game experience, port that maybe across other games and accrue that value to the user.
That's all the key unlock, right? But we need a 10X game or hopefully in the 100X game to
really drive action to the space. So really hope that comes soon.
Yeah, I think both you and the haunted space are on to the same thing I was going to talk
about, which is definitely I think this next bull hunt is probably going to bring a lot
of just organically, bringing a lot of players maybe even to this mark of the 100 million
and making better games is essentially a matter of scale and time and so on. But something
that I think can help a lot, especially within this, is basically having this process be
plug and play. So having such that teams of indies don't need to have a team of Web
3 engineers to be able to make a game that uses Web 3. And this is basically a theme
that we're all echoing here is that games need to be games, they need to be good games.
And then Web 3 is just a part of the offering, essentially. And for that, it doesn't make
sense to have a team of experts for Web 3 within those games that needs to be tools
and it needs to be, above all, it needs to be very easy, very simple to integrate. And
I think that's one of the big challenges for many of the projects here and in the space
as a whole, is to find those easy solutions that regular indie devs can just plug into
their games. Yeah, and that's actually one of the things
that we're actually working on. So I think, yeah, we do have some really good insight
because we've kind of been in it since 2018 and had to play with a lot of other people's
infrastructure and projects and SDKs and APIs and all that to finally say, yeah, you know,
there's a lot of people that have been working on that for a long time. I see an old friend,
Alex Favell. I see your hand up. Why don't you go and introduce yourself and tell us your thoughts.
How's it going? So my name is Alex Favell. I've been in Bitcoin since 2013. It's been a very
long journey. But I'm interested in NFT and gaming because I've developed my own card game,
which is kind of like Cards Against Humanity. And if you know about Cards Against Humanity,
they're kind of open about the way they do things and that they allow you to create derivatives,
but you can't make money from it. And the way you make your own is, if you know about
Cards Against Humanity, it's kind of like apples to apples in that you have a phrase with some
missing words. And then you have other cards in your hands that you can submit to the person that
read the phrase to have the funniest, funniest phrase. But to me, that is very, very,
it fits in with Web3 very well if they were just to do it properly. So if you were to make every
single phrase and every single word on the white cards a NFT, you can create quite an interesting
gamified version of Cards Against Humanity on Web3. My game is not like Cards Against Humanity
in its format. It uses yes and no questions. So you can now own a yes and no question and
make money from it. And the way you make money from it is that if it's a popular question,
we print it into a deck and then pay you royalties. At the moment, we finished a Kickstarter
and we've delivered about 150 physical card games to people. We haven't integrated with
blockchain yet, but that is currently being worked on and should be expected within the next couple
of weeks. And I feel like gaming has such a huge, broad ecosystem of what a game could be that it
makes sense that a game is going to be the thing that's kind of 10Xs this space. We've obviously
seen it with CryptoKitties. Unfortunately, CryptoKitties broke Ethereum. But if you use a
scalable blockchain infrastructure that doesn't have the issues of the whole thing problem,
which Ethereum does, then you can do things that are incredibly cheap and has a low barrier to entry
that is unrivaled in any other space. So let's say Cards Against Humanity, it costs you
maybe a dollar to submit a word and then you own it. And you can make money from it every time it's
printed. We have the same thing. And if you ask a question, it's going to cost you 50 cents plus
one cent per character up to a limit of 123 characters. One, two, three. And yeah, you're
then able to have this ecosystem of people making money and spending money,
asking and answering questions. Because the way we work is that if you ask a question and pay for it,
we will pay 100 people to answer it. And if you're after this 100 people, then you have to pay to
answer the question. But you don't necessarily really care whether you're paying to answer the
question or being paid because it's only a tenth of a cent. And it's a very low barrier to entry.
It's like, you know, it's basically a new kind of innovative business model, but it still uses
blockchain technology. And I think one of the keywords, you know, that everyone likes to hear
is royalties. You know, and then we have a lot of kind of initiatives in the blockchain space,
except blur, the blur marketplace, but you know, where it seems like the general movement in the
industry wants to preserve the royalty system to where at least a digital asset can be traded while
honoring a royalty to its creator or like IP owner, for example. And that will probably bring
in a lot of the content, which is really what we're getting at the 10x, the 100x game is the
content really needs to come over. And I think, you know, kind of the proof is in the money or
proof in the pudding. But the money like, for example, like Disney or Marvel or something like,
I mean, even NFL rivals over there, they got the NFL, you know, their IP. So, you know, I think
when they kind of prove out that model, and there's a great case study, then it's going to kind of
open up a lot more models like this. And it's just using a new technology to do that. And I think
that's not really scary. It's just what we said kind of earlier, the it's new, and we don't know,
you know, everyone doesn't understand it, we might need five to 10 years to really wrap our head
around it. Yeah, as soon as your thought is a haunted space. Sorry, yeah, just to add to that,
as soon as customers are making money from royalties, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy,
right? And the reason you're talking to your friends about it is because you might make money,
not from them directly. But because the ecosystem is growing as a whole. And the fact that you as a
customer can be part of a royalty program is something that web to infrastructure cannot
provide. Because the whole point of this space is micropayments being able to granularly provide
value to the platform, but then also get value back, depending on how much value you provide.
So with our system, you can't ask the same question twice. So if you're the first person
to ask a question, you own it. And that sounds a bit esoteric and stuff. But when you realize that
certain questions, and their interpretations only has so many forms, you can monopolize a question
like, are you happy by asking 10 questions? Because there's very many different ways to
ask that question, but really, there's only about 10. So if you monopolize that kind of question,
then you're going to be making money and you're going to want to talk to people about it.
Right. Thanks, Alex. haunted space.
Okay, that gave me some Ethereum name service vibes. So that's good. That's a nice, nice way
to monetize. I wanted to connect about your, your thoughts regarding the blockchain. So yeah,
the blockchain absolutely needs to be scalable with low, low fees. And I think that we also
need to approach things really a little bit different if we want to scale the gaming space,
because in my opinion, and we also saw other projects that do the same. For example,
you mentioned Blancos, I don't think that Blancos allows user to pay the fees. In my opinion,
we need to integrate the fees, the cost of the fees or transaction on chain in the business.
And earn from, for example, the transaction on the marketplace with, you know, a royalty on
on our products, this is a better sustainable model, and does not cause enough friction, you know,
it's better for the people to avoid to pay some little fees, everything they do,
we can take charge of that. And we earn on the sales, we earn on the transaction in the
marketplace. And these can most probably lead to a more web to user base, joining the market. So
these are my thoughts on on on the blockchain side of things. 100% if you're if you're creating a
service on the blockchain, you should be eating the fees that their customers have to pay for
the fact that they're using the blockchain. It's unfortunate that those fees become prohibitive if
you want to do that on Ethereum or BTC or something like that. The sorry, real quick,
the Blancos was running on exactly looked at this. And I was like, Are you kidding me,
but they run on like a essentially their own chain, using kind of proof of authority. That's
just nerd speak for a database, I think, right? You know, they were essentially the authority,
it's not decentralized, it's not really distributed, but they had kind of these chain of blocks that
they control and, and whatnot. And so there really wasn't a gas fees, they pretty much ran
at surf from I might be wrong. You know, you can bash me in the in the space comments and whatnot.
But so I don't know, I don't really, I feel like that's not really like a public blockchain when
you compare like Ethereum and Bitcoin and whatnot. But I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah, I would
add to that. If the blockchain isn't public, it's not really a blockchain.
Yeah, so I wanted to add a little bit on that part. So, and this is also a question for for
you all. Do you really think that we need to have public, let's say, public blockchain storing
in order to be a real game that connects the web to our other web tree?
It's a great question. And I've thought a lot about that, because it, there's kind of these
worldviews that I've talked to different people, there is the multi chain future. And so so I
started to imagine, okay, what does that look like, right? So we have, we have Ronin, you know,
we have pretty much, you know, I don't know, Ubi chain, you know, for Ubisoft and, you know,
Blizzard chain. And then I started to think, okay, well, you know, the whole, I think thesis and ethos
of web three is freedom, right, to actually own your digital assets, not be siloed in kind of their
ecosystem. And even immutable would probably fit in that immutable x because you're kind of, you
know, in there. So then we start to go, okay, well, how do we bridge a digital asset from one database
to another, and it starts to really feel and look like where we came from, right? However, maybe with
less control. So maybe you could argue it's a step up. But, you know, then you start to basically
have kind of these bridges where, you know, your NFT on immutable x needs to go over to Ubi chain,
or something like that. Or it could mean that, you know, you just have wallets in all of these
ecosystems. And then it and then there's like new companies that a form about aggregating all that,
it's just I don't know, it, it's that's kind of like one worldview. And then the other one is,
I've actually had for many years, today, I'm not quite sure, because I might have been, it could
have been maybe like, this is a VHS versus Betamax moment, you know, the technology doesn't really
matter. It's just which wins in the user adoption race. But basically, you know, Alex said, you know,
we need a scalable chain. And so on, you know, Bitcoin SV, you know, that's, that's a lot of the
ethos on in that ecosystem is that, you know, this is the actual scalable Bitcoin, smart contracts,
like everything that's, you know, popular, and all these other chains that has the fees are super,
super low, I mean, low enough to where you can subsidize, you know, millions and millions and
millions of transactions. And we actually with crypto fights, we did this a couple years ago,
we did kind of on chain gameplay, where users actually had essentially a non custodial wallet,
but almost like account abstraction, but we just did it in a different way. And they did, I think
it was like 10.2 million transactions that day, you know, from gameplay. And, you know, I think
some of the realization I came is I don't think users really care about that yet. And it might be
too early, you know, for this kind of metaverse world, but we subsidize all of the transactions
for them. So they didn't have to pay for that. And, and so it kind of hits that onboarding angle.
And then I say, Okay, well, if the next call of duty came on, and had 100 million users, and had
like, like, super, super big numbers of transactions, could Bitcoin SV handle it? And if so, you know,
the fee, the fee and the miners and kind of the whole kind of ecosystem around that would basically
be supporting that and be incentivized to support the network. Yeah, that could be the other worldview
is that, you know, the chains that can actually scale are going to attract these projects,
because there's been tons and tons of these gaming projects that start on one chain, go to another,
some of it's for money, some of us because they didn't scale. But you know, we're starting to
form this world where, you know, there's all these new chains, and you have and you can only interact
with the stuff on that chain, you know, with the wallet for that chain. And it just starts to look
like a very fragmented world again. So I see some hands up. I did my job. I think Alex, really
quickly you first and then Han in space. Sure. I was gonna say that the worldviews have really
screwed things up for us. And in the, at the end of the day, this is just technology.
And technology is a political, but almost by definition, it's a tool is someone in the BSP
community keeps like keeps saying a hammer can both kill and build. And you got to be careful
what you do with it. When it when it comes to the scalability of things, a lot of these projects will
live and die by the sword. You know, they think that they can scale. But when you actually dive
deep down into how they're doing things, they can't, partly because they're, you know, a single
company running the infrastructure. And, you know, Bitcoin is proof of work, which means that
a company can join the network or leave the network whenever they want. And if they've got
more resources, they can provide the same services, their competitors at a cheaper rate.
Therefore, you would think pulling up some of the some of the marketplace into that into that
ecosystem. And that's as a very big part of how this works in that no company is ever going to
work with a chain that can only do seven transactions per second, right? They need
something, even if it's a layer two, that will allow them to operate with much more capacity
than that. And while I guess over the next couple of months, we might see that shaken out.
But I don't want to go more into that, because then I'm probably a speculator. And I don't like
speculating on stuff. All right, thanks, Alex. BSCN, do you want to go? And then Abel, you know,
I apologize, I am not scrolling down enough to see your hand raised. So why don't you go after?
It's okay. It's okay. I'll speak after everyone speaks. It's okay.
All right. BSCN, why don't you go and then haunted space after that and then Abel.
I appreciate it. I feel bad. But I'll try and be quick. I think there's obviously a lot of
compromises that come here with sort of much chain or, you know, features to attempt to try
and get the best of as many sides as possible. You mentioned blankers earlier, I think it was
a great example of something exactly such as this. So they're built on the EOS network. If we think
today that a $200 million or $300 million raises eye watering, EOS had a $4 billion raise in 2017
and 2018. And today it's relatively not talked about. Essentially, you know, just something of
the past. I have a nasty feeling a lot of the things we have going on today may end up with
that similar style to fate because we haven't quite nailed it yet. Blankers was a good example,
built on the EOS using the EOS IO set of toolkits and networks and essentially its own centralized
chain. So you could play in game and earn these assets, but you can never withdraw them. And for
all user based and intensive purposes, they were not really on a chain whatsoever. So that's a
situation where you take the example of no fees, no gas fees, and user onboarding to the extreme
level where there's pretty much no need for blockchain at all. And they ended up getting
the worst of both sides. So not only was a Web 3 user not incentivized to go into that ecosystem,
they were also now having to go and compete against all traditional games whilst staying
their blockchain game without having any blockchain integration at all. There was this
problem too. So I really don't know where I'm going with this, but I just thought I'd mention
it, like going too far in any of these directions kind of leads to nowhere. You actually have a
really good point. I'm going to go real quick. You know, any chain. So when Ronin happened and
they had that huge, like $600 million hack, I was like, what is going on? You know, like when you run
your own chain, right, for your products, like it's like the Ronin chain for Ronin products or
actually, I'm sorry, Skymavis products, you know, you are kind of like the custodian for that much
money, right? And the security and kind of how that ran is huge. I mean, I'm actually surprised
they didn't get sued to go out of business at that point. You know, I know they raised a bunch
of money to make good. I honestly, I stopped following after that, but just the amount of
like pain that, you know, getting hacked or screwing up assets for people that just go poof
is just huge. And that's maybe an argument to go to a public chain and say, hey, hey guys,
this was Ethereum, Ethereum got hacked. I can't help. You know what I mean? Versus no, this is our
chain, our, you know, under our umbrella, kind of like a mutable X, right? If mutable X got hacked,
what happens then, right? So, good point. Good point. How did Space watch you go?
So guys, I think that's also for the other things that we mentioned before,
we need to learn from the other, let's say mistakes or experiments, you know, you mentioned
Blancos. I watched them closely in the last year, obviously. They have, you know, pretty good results
if you compare to other web2games. The thing related to the blockchain, yeah, I know they
use the EOS, so it was a strange type of, you know, work. What I believe is that we can,
we can, you know, create something that works privately, but on a public chain. So let me
explain a little bit better. So we can be something like chain-a-nostic or start to think like we are
a business, we will choose our partner and we choose it based on, you know, transaction fees,
the support that they can bring to us as a company, okay? So you can choose a blockchain with low fees,
like, I don't know, SUI, you know, subnet on Avalanche, new layer trees, like X-I that,
you know, came up in a few, in these few months. So there are a lot of solutions and definitely
I think that the project itself needs to choose and study the blockchain that it uses to store the
data. But on the, let's say on the user side, the less they see, the better it is. Then if they
want to see this data, they can do that because for our example, we store the data and we will
store all the data on the blockchain that we choose. So people can check them if they want,
they will have the chance to do that, but publicly they don't see that. So they have the web2
experience with the web3 benefits behind the scenes. So we are not, you know, we are not
having all the responsibility, like, for example, to running our own chain, like Ronin, for example,
that you mentioned, but we have the experience that is very smooth and the trust of the blockchain
that stands behind the scenes that we use as a partner. And this, I think this is a good mix
between the two chains. Let me know if it's all clear or if you have other opinions because it's,
you know, pretty complicated stuff and also experimental, you know, because we are here
to do that, to build and experiment stuff. Right, Abel. Yeah, thank you. I think I have
two things to comment on. Some of the things that we're talking about now and also something that
Alexander mentioned earlier. So I do think that there is, there are probably some useful use
cases for private blockchains, right? Maybe not in the context of gaming and so on, but
are things that need to massively scale. But I think there are some uses. So maybe
if there is an organization that has separate headquarters in different places, they have
internal data that they want to manage. They don't want that data on another infrastructure
or they don't trust or something. I think there are use cases like that, like they want to
protect their data in some way. They don't want to rely on adding encryption schemes
on an open blockchain. And then maybe on certain circumstances, they sync that data with a public
blockchain for whatever reason, for vulnerability or whatever else in an encrypted state, for example.
So I don't think there are some use cases, but in general, yes, I agree that specifically for the
types of use cases that we are discussing in gaming, it needs to scale. So the advantage of
it being public and open blockchain does make sense. And the other thing I wanted to comment
on was the example of cards against humanity. Like you said, they have an open, I wanted to talk
about that because earlier in the other segment, there was a gentleman that was talking about
the fact that we need a new lexicon to be able to talk about some of these tokens and whatever else.
And I think cards against humanity is a good example in the sense of they instrumentalized
these Creative Commons licenses in that advantage. So what you were talking earlier,
that they published their IP with a type of license that benefited their business model.
And I think that maybe we need a little bit of that in this space, a lexicon, like the Creative
Commons, which has a sort of shared lexicon for what these very technical licenses mean.
Maybe we need something similar for the use cases that we want to or that makes sense for players.
Maybe we need an lexicon that allows us and players to sort of communicate and take advantage
of these features essentially. But yeah, that was it. I see a couple of ends up. I don't know,
maybe Alexander. Yeah, can I just add that my game is actually under Creative Commons license,
the updated version to what cards against humanity did put out. So we're very similar.
I don't think we need a new lexicon of rights and how to do it. I didn't mean of rights,
I meant of many of these features that we like the tokens and stuff. I agree with that. I think
we need a lexicon to describe a token when it gives you certain rights. So like the Board
AP Yacht Club, it gave you rights to create derivative works whilst you own it. And I think
that needs a name. And then other tokens that do similar sorts of things also need names so that
we don't have to say like an entire sentence every time we're trying to describe what
rights you get when you actually buy one of these things.
All right, good point. Andrew, you've been having your hand up, so why don't you go?
Yeah, I just I'm curious how you guys are thinking about
chain agnosticism or working cross chain, but also what is the likelihood that a user really
could own the NFTs, their in-game purchases, their in-game experience, and how likely is
it that they'll be able to support those maybe across games on a particular chain or in a
particular gaming ecosystem? So yeah, I think it's actually very interesting because I think this
happened with how was the project by going completely blank NBA Top Shot. They had clips of
plays in a game. People bought those. Do you own the rights to that footage? And the answer was no.
You own the ability, like basically this kind of digital object that you could trade within
their marketplace and I guess speculate on, but you couldn't go to like a broadcasting
and say, hey, look, this is my clip. I own it. I have the copyright to it.
And I think that's probably what Alex is going to say is that that's probably going to happen.
It's obviously probably needs to happen with important IP or valuable IP to where,
for example, if there's a basketball game, there's a clip taken and they listen on auction
and whoever gets to buy that can actually resell the viewing of it in broadcast media.
And if you think about like Twitter with citizen journalism, you can kind of see like, well,
why like, what are we waiting for? You know, someone goes out into the field, into the war
zone, takes a clip and says, here, here's my NFT guys. It includes, you know, copyright,
blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, the auction starts at, I don't know, thousand dollars or
something like that, bid it up. And that's actually, I think maybe a great idea if anyone's
listening as a journalist and you have important footage, because the other way is very inefficient.
You know, you have to kind of like, do contracts, you know, like these kind of like, we have the
technology to make this really, really efficient and streamlined and prove ownership of it. So Alex,
go ahead. Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous that these NFTs don't come with any rights, because actually
the reason why they would ever be valuable is because of the rights that come with them.
Right. So if you buy a clip that is recorded by, you know, CNBC or something,
you should be able to sell that exclusively to other journalists. You got the clip first, right?
So a clip might not be valuable at the time, but if an advertiser wants to use it in an advert or
something, well, suddenly it becomes very valuable. So you should be able to actually own that as per,
you know, what you expect. I think a lot of people were disillusioned when, you know, they might have
bought a bored ape or something and suddenly they can't actually use it for what their intended
purpose was. There was a case about someone that bought a bored ape and then they produced a
show, a cartoon show around that bored ape. But because they sold it afterwards,
after they'd produced it, they realized they couldn't monetize the show anymore because
they gave up all rights by selling it. It's a really, really messy sort of situation.
But the other thing someone mentioned, I think it was Abel, you mentioned that you want to be able
to transfer between ecosystems. So you have an in-game token in one game and maybe you want
to transfer that to another game and that would be important. Well, for our games specifically,
and I don't know how it's going to work with other games, but there is no reason to transfer
a question outside of our platform because we have a method of monetizing it for you.
And if you transfer it to another platform, maybe they have a good way of monetizing it,
but it's not like we're going to remove the question from the platform.
The person that owns that token is still going to get all the royalties.
Yeah, but that's kind of apples and oranges, though. I mean, I think that's probably an
exception. But if you have a blockchain with a protocol and assets are created with that
protocol and you have all these disparate protocols, that's really kind of the question.
Is that world that develops out of that the interoperability of it or the ability to transfer
is not going to be really easy and secure? At least, I think, correct me if I'm wrong.
But I think you're right. I just think that, well, in my personal view, we're going to move
to a single protocol like the internet. In the 80s and 70s, there was a huge fight over
which protocol would win. And it turns out that it is a winner-take-all system.
I do believe that blockchain is very similar.
Well said, yeah. And we have, you know, I think the next couple of years, you know,
I mean, being in it for five, six years now, you know, just kind of watching the space
and the billions of dollars that were poured in over the last couple of years
in these Web3 gaming projects specifically, you know, they're building and we're going to see
more stuff. It's going to bring more people. It's going to make the industry bigger.
And, you know, I think there's really something here and we're all early, which is nice to know.
You know, there's always these, I remember the app store. This is a funny, stupid example. But
when the iPhone was released in the app store and there was like somebody that made like a fart app,
it was literally like a button you push and it made a fart, made a million dollars and he got in
the paper. And I was like, wow, you know, it's just stupid, easy, low barriers. Or the guy that
made a app that was literally just a jewel and it was 10 grand to buy it. Oh, really? I didn't even
know. There's probably tons of examples of just like ridiculous things because it's so novel.
And I think, you know, we've probably had that. We probably have passed that window. Maybe not
all the way closed, but that one is probably closed and probably a new one's opened up where
the market's going to get bigger. Barriers to entry is going to get a little bit bigger.
And, but the rewards are going to be also bigger as well. And so that's probably the next leg that
we're approaching, which is really exciting. But so we're about hitting the hour. So I'm going to
go ahead and close up. Thank you everyone, including our speakers, for joining our space.
And we have these every two weeks. So the next one is going to be February 15th.
And we'll announce that on Twitter where our next topic is and our speakers.
Thank you everyone for joining and talk to you soon.