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GRAILED CHAT
Recorded: May 29, 2025 Duration: 1:04:49Space Recording
Short Summary
The latest Grail Chat episode explored the exciting developments in the Other Side metaverse, highlighting new project launches, strategic partnerships, and growth opportunities for developers. Key insights included the potential for monetization and the collaborative efforts among builders, setting the stage for a vibrant ecosystem.
Full Transcription
The End Thank you. The End The The End The Thank you. The Thank you. The Thank you. The End The End Thank you. The End Oh, my God. The End gmgm and welcome to episode nine
of grail chat my My name's John Carl.
It's amazing to see so many communities in the audience.
I see you all.
What a reminder of how strong our OG communities are.
Year after year, still here, showing up.
I look forward to this space because of all the PFPs I see out there hanging out, listening in the audience.
Thank you for rolling up to listen, hang out, and support Grail Chat.
Without you, these shows truly wouldn't be possible.
And if this is your first time joining us, welcome to the family.
We appreciate you tuning in.
This is not an alpha space, but instead a community space.
We hope Grail Chat will become a place where all communities can come together,
reflect on Web3, and learn a few things from time to time as well. So if this is your first time
joining, welcome and buckle up. Tonight, we are diving straight into the metaverse,
and I couldn't be more excited. As we've chatted about for months on the show,
a lot of the real building in this space takes two things.
One, dedicated builders that refuse to leave or give up.
And two, time. A lot of time.
And for DGENs, that second one is difficult because we like immediate gratification.
But amazing products take time to build.
And after three years, we finally will see more of that.
What has been worked on behind the curtain of Other Side?
The anticipation is palpable in the Yuga and Ape Chain community.
And tonight we're going to get a sneak peek behind the curtain of what some of the ODK Alpha builders of Other Side have been up to.
A little taste of what is soon to come.
Alongside my co-host Michael Figge who works on Other Side development day in and day out,
we have three amazing guests that we want to spotlight for their work.
Nana of Other Page, Von Doom of Command Line Games which is developing Bathroom Blitz,
and Marcel of Primal Instinct.
We're going to spend the first part of tonight spotlighting the work of each of these builders,
and then afterwards we'll have a general chat about OtherSide and the wider ecosystem that
will be able to engage with this special place that many of us feel like is home.
All right, Figgy, I hope you're doing well. I'd love to start the show tonight with you talking about what it's been like to work with community builders like the legends on stage while building other side.
And then if you don't mind throwing it over to each of our special guests to start the show so we can spotlight what they've been up to.
Yeah, 100 percent. Good to see everybody.
Good to be back on another Grail chat.
Good to have you, John Carl.
And thanks to our guests, Van Doom, Nana, Marcel.
There's a lot of people working on the other side and around it on the infrastructure.
And so we're highlighting three people tonight.
But also, we hope to be highlighting more people.
I see more builders in the audience here and i think
that's one of the great reasons that we're gonna um be having a great show here hey john carl can
you still hear me i don't think you can hear me okay cool he's just texting me space has been
bugging i wasn't shouting yeah yeah it seemed that way we're trying to bring marcel up for later but uh if we uh if we
rug a little bit just go with it um i do want to actually just give a heads up in the next show
that we have so i think john carl's going to be out of town but in the next show we're going to
give a 10k tf update you know myself and some of the team members are going to
go over some of the progress we've been making so i think that's important for everybody to
to hear about here um actually right now i'm up at google in san francisco i'm i came up here this
morning i flew out to be a part of this ai get together up here with a lot of like super smart minds. And, you know, the amount of growth is actually kind of staggering.
And just being able to hear some of this stuff firsthand and think about it relative to the
world of crypto, it's kind of like trying to connect the dots between adjacent industries,
similar to how I feel like a lot of the fine art stuff is related to like the digital
assets that we collect even though it's like one genre i think the crypto ai intersection is like
super interesting and i do think like there's a place for it when it comes to building out
expressions of crypto and other side um but i i thought i should share some of this info because
i think there are aspects of this where maybe even within our space we're like
so focused on like whatever the hot thing is this weekend crypto that like we should really
take a step back and look at where there's a bunch of growth um you know and and i don't actually
think that a lot of this growth has come over to web3 yet, but there's kind of like a door between these
things that unlocks it.
Google's been around since 2000, about.
And from 2000 to 2022, I'll call it the pre-commercial AI world, there's a certain amount of
data centers and compute that they were able to build.
were able to build. But when ChatGPT first came out publicly in 23, the demand for Google
cloud servers served so much that in 2023, they built more new data centers and compute
than they had in their previous 22 years combined. And then that trajectory has kind of continued. So in 2024, they've actually wound up having to build more than all the years combined, plus 2023.
And then this year, they've wound up having to build even more data centers than all their years combined, plus 23 and 24.
So this is kind of just like a staggering amount of demand for compute uh whether it whether it's any kind of
flavor of ai and i think it's interesting to see that because i've always believed that
one of the pieces that's missing is the fact that you know your ai agent can't open a bank account
like it it's very important for ai to be able to transact on financial rails and crypto is
one of the places to find that but we haven't really like knocked down the door so it's like
just super interesting to come up here and see like how much demand is in an industry just adjacent
to us that like as a specific tie-in with agentic behavior and crypto rails but that that story isn't happening
yet you know lots of there was lots of chatter around like bit tensor and ai16z and virtuals
but a lot of those things in space i mean diving in on it personally i think there's a lot stuff
that's stronger in marketing than in product reality and i i do think some of it's convoluted,
and I think there might be easier
to understand applications of AI and crypto
that can be tested with the public.
And I actually think OtherSide
is a really amazing playground
for all types of crypto ideas,
not just crypto and AI,
but all kinds of ideas around digital ownership.
And that's what you get out of a new category, like a meta RPG, just like this idea that,
you know, there's, there's going to be a lot of new stuff generating.
And I think there's a lot of discussion around, you know, the Anthropic CEO, for instance,
he just recently said, like, there's going to be a surge in unemployment because like
a lot of people are gonna be displaced and i don't know like when i when i reflect on how everybody has a video camera
like a pretty high quality video camera the camera on your like iphone or whatever your phone is is
like better than the camera that i use in film school it didn't mean that like all of a sudden
hollywood was out of a job or that we have more blockbusters but it did mean that like now we
have a lot of youtube creators and tiktok creators so i think that we have more blockbusters, but it did mean that like now we have a lot of YouTube creators and TikTok creators.
So I think that we start to see stuff kind of like spawn out of nowhere, like a new category.
And I think that those good products, they definitely do take time.
And part of this is bringing together like the group that's here today with,
and with Web3, we have like aligned incentives between like folders and
operators so even this this spaces itself grail chat this is an idea from john carl as a holder
in 10kcf he said you know i own a lot of tanks and i think that we can bring visibility to the
project by doing the spaces and so like that's a perfect example of like older and operator
alignment to get things done.
And I know that all the stuff that Nana has been doing with the team at OtherPage,
stuff that Von Doom has been doing with the team at Command Line,
and the stuff that Marcel's been doing with Primal Instinct,
which I think is really a sleeper project.
If you look at the stuff that Marcel's putting out there,
their visuals for what he's been building in the ODK,
people should really keep an eye on it because I think it's interesting. And then again, for what he's been building in the ODK, people should really keep an eye on it
because I think it's interesting.
And then again, yeah, there's more builders
in the audience that I can see just breezing through.
There's a lot of folks here that are building.
And when many folks are using the tools,
it really just expands the utility for ApeCoin and ApeChain.
Yes, 100%.
Like there's going to be all of these things and they're all going to be tied into ApeCoin and ApeChain. Yes, 100%. There's going to be all of these things,
and they're all going to be tied into ApeCoin and ApeChain.
But also for their own digital objects.
Each community that participates in this,
they get to bring awareness and network effects
to their own digital objects.
And I know this is kind of like a lot of thoughts strung together,
but I guess one last thought here is like in the early
days of tank atf we gave people tools to build recipes and there there were deliberately not
enough tools to go around and i thought and we all thought as a project like we thought that the
community would just build rental contracts and people would be able to like rent tools to each
other and we didn't need to build those tools. But I get that it's like a habit
to expect centralized development teams
to advance everything, right?
But it's just a reminder,
these objects are permissionless.
Anyone can build anything in crypto.
And same with 10KTF,
we didn't coordinate with any parent PFP project.
We just kind of worked within the framework
of the license that was provided by each project
and kind of built composably on that.
So I'm really looking forward to that type of behavior happening.
But like how it practically happens is with the work that OtherPage, Command Line, and
Primal Instinct and many others are doing.
So I'm super excited to have these folks here and um i would love to start off
with other page nana like i think that you guys are working on some great stuff and would love
to hear your perspective on how you're thinking about tying into and supporting other side because
i think there's a bunch of people here who might want to know more information. Yeah, certainly. What up, Figgy, John, Carl, the rest of the Grailed?
It's good to be up here, man.
Yeah, I really think things have been shaping up
pretty beautifully along this journey.
We really started off as Apes Page, you know,
Apes page, you know, profile for your avatar. But since then, and the way things have been
profile for your avatar.
shaping up, it's really become about creators and communities coming together and how we can
empower them with some really great tooling. You know, for those that are familiar with Otherpage right now,
we've been partnering with communities to create a community on Otherpage and
offer them the tooling to engage and help them manage their communities across platforms.
So we want to really find ways for creators who are looking to prove engagement
and grow their community and just come up with some new ways to engage them, offer rewards or
utility based on that engagement. And one way to do that is providing on-chain badges that are minted on ApeChain.
And we're already starting to see how just the different tools that are available, just by nature of having an on-chain badge with metadata attached to it,
on how people could actually use that for all sorts of things.
You know, we've had examples of like Sarah Stargirl,
who was a community member launching her avatar project
and looking to use this as a way to find out,
hey, who are the different communities that are actually engaged with this?
And I want to offer offer an allow list opportunity.
And finding a way to engage them
by claiming certain badges based on certain requirements.
And then take a snapshot of all the holders
with that particular on-chain badge,
just making it really easy for communities
to create badges and some on-chain provenance.
And so as people have these things, it sticks with them from experience to experience, from
any app to another platform and ideally on the other side.
And you can only imagine the possibilities when we're able to recognize those achievements across multiple experiences, whether they be through different ODK experiences or anything that someone can imagine and create.
on-chain attestations are there.
And there's lots of potential of just being able to tap into that
and do things in a way that is really Web3 native.
So, yeah, we're really looking forward to other side and persistent world
and also just the ODK experiences that are coming out
because we'll certainly do our best to shape our platform
to continue to help people move as a community,
start growing these communities,
and engage with these communities differently.
Yeah, the idea of being in a digital space
and getting an item or a badge through some sort of effort, right?
Like you did a quest, you did a social event, you get some sort of object for that.
That's not necessarily a terribly new idea in general, right?
A lot of things are like you're playing Zelda, you beat a boss, you get a key, you unlock a door.
But I think what's interesting about Other Side as a meta-RPG is like a lot of these items were not necessarily acquired within this platform.
The platform itself can acknowledge these kinds of items that you've acquired in other systems. And I think OtherPage takes that even a step further
by saying, yeah, and we're keeping track of
and presenting to you what all of those things are
on an individual basis so that you can compare
and contrast against other collectors.
Who has shared memories with you?
Who might share values with you?
And so one part of that is like,
like how do you go about building things
in which are experiences for people
to be able to collect things?
So I want to actually like rotate over
to Von Doom for a second
because I know Von Doom with Command Line
has been working on a number of things,
one of them being Bathroom Blitz. And I just want to get your perspective, Von Doom. You were like,
you know, you're an early worker in the ODK. And I think you should be like, you should share your
experience about how it is to build in there. And maybe keep in mind that there's some people in the audience
who might be curious about taking a stab at it.
So we'd love to hear your tip.
Yeah, I mean, look, we've previously,
we did a lot of work with Epic Games.
And in 2020, we did like a two-year, 18-month, two-year deal
where we basically built a metaverse for them
for internal meetings
and external meetings.
And we essentially worked on like every stack that was around in 20 and 21 that was the
equivalent of M squared, right?
So my team got their teeth cut because we basically like built the same experience.
I don't know, like eight or nine different times with eight or nine different providers. So we came into the table with a lot of knowledge of how the connectivity side of it
works and coming in and getting to get our hands wrapped around the ODK and start to understand
what was there. We were really excited to see all of the Web3 Rails were dialed in.
excited to see all of the web three rails were dialed in, you know, and that obviously means
everything for where this is going. So we were, you know, we were excited with what we saw. And
obviously there's been, I mean, that was, I don't know what, 15 months ago, probably at this point.
Um, and we've been, we've been working on bathroom blitz. We've been working on a few
other things that I won't talk about because i'm not trying to spoil future announcements but they're really good i'll tell you that um
but yeah no it's been fun i mean again like background wise unreal engine background uh
is key to being able to build in this but i mean if you're looking and trying to put together a
team you know you don't all need to know unreal if you've got someone that understands you to know Unreal. If you've got someone that understands, you know, how to create assets,
you've got someone that understands Unreal,
you can kind of cobble together something to create an experience.
And what we've seen from M Squared is that every iteration and update of the ODK,
of the platform, it's got more of what I think from a seasoned developer standpoint more of what we would want
to see you know and a big part of like my interest on top of just making really fun games for people
to love and enjoy um is to try to you know help create like the healthiest developer ecosystem we
can develop so that's another thing that we are having
continual conversations about.
And, you know, because I know that coming from in part
also like a background developing for Fortnite,
once we spun the game studio off
and knowing like how many developers are out there
that aren't actually making any money on Fortnite, right?
If we can just get some of them over here in the next year, there's going to be a massive force multiplier that we get to deal with.
I think that's pretty good insight from you.
I know we work together a lot on this stuff, but we haven't really dived in around the philosophy around it too much right and i guess for for folks in
the audience um it might be helpful to kind of like describe the back and forth that's possible
here uh with you know what you're doing with other side and what like other pages doing because
i think nana brought up like a lot of good points about being able to be composable and badges so
it's something like people could go into other side.
They can go into instance of bathroom blitz.
If they get an achievement in bathroom blitz, that's something that other
page can automatically index and recognize.
Not only that other page independently of, of other side can choose to upgrade
the ways in which people are viewing those and kind of like create a meta game around the experience itself, right?
And they can kind of do that independently of even you.
Yeah, it's for everybody, right?
I mean, we're working with that team and incorporating that into Bathroom Blitz.
We're working with that team on the other stuff,
team on the other stuff, or we will be when it's a little further along for the other stuff that
or we will be when it's a little further along for the other stuff that we're doing.
we're doing. It's critical to have that infra built out. You know, those are, again, like,
when I talk about, like, building out a greater developer ecosystem that consists of people that
aren't Web3 native, it isn't, like, you know, folks like Marcel and me and Nana, you know what
I mean, that have been living and breathing this for years, you know, folks like Marcel and me and Nana, you know what I mean, that have been living and breathing this for years.
You know, it's other people who just know Unreal Engine that want to build games and see this as an opportunity to scale, you know, their team in a completely different direction.
I mean, there's just some critical things that need to be in place for them to, because they're going to look at it and they're going to go, okay, yeah, you know, Fortnite, there's 400,000 Fortnite games.
You know, 450 of them have you know over five players you know what i mean so there's it's such a wild when you get into it like it's so crazy the difficulty of breaking through right but there's
so many developers that are continually trying and building great content but they're not breaking
through part of that's because discovery on Fortnite is broken. That's another story.
They haven't fixed it in years. It's okay. I don't think they will. But what that means is
that there's developers that are going to look at stuff. And if there's a certain amount of infra
in place, they're going to look at it and go, okay, cool. This is actually really far along.
It's got the web through rails. It's got the other page components. It's got the multiplayer and all the other things that we need to actually do something semi-rapidly.
And they could do it with, you know, three to five people instead of 15, right?
All that stuff's critical.
So Nana, you have something like Bathroom Blitz from Von Doon.
We see that.
And what runs through your head from an OtherPage perspective? Are you saying like, okay, cool, here's this experience, here are the outputs of that experience, and here's what? Just before we go over to Marcel, how does OtherPage think of new experiences spawning?
What ways do you try to tie into that?
I think one thing that's important is really just whether it be a creator,
a community, or a game developer,
someone who's putting on an experience like Command Line,
is being able to make it really easy to issue badges or create badges and acknowledge them.
And for a lot of people, they may have seen the surface of Other Page by just flexing
on their profile, being able to see all the
cool badges they've collected over time, but being able to tap into all the abilities
that OtherPage has through the ODK could be really important for developers who are
for developers who are building out experiences on the other side.
building out experiences on the other side.
And I think that's something we really want to position ODK builders with
is really great access to our API and tooling
so that they would be able to leverage this on-chain achievement system
in ways that they could imagine it for their communities.
in ways that they could imagine it for their communities.
And that would allow communities to start tapping into how they want to acknowledge it.
For instance, if there was another community to acknowledge everyone who participated
in the Other Side World Record event for Project Dragon, there could be a really cool
way to acknowledge that particular community who is there on that experience and do something
for it. And the possibilities are endless from there. But at least that proof of engagement is there.
The proof that they participated in that experience is there.
And as ODK builders continue to build out experience after experience,
it would be great to be able to acknowledge that for the player, for the user.
Because there's some really creative ways we can all go about it or acknowledge it in another experience,
whether it would be command line or, you know, Marcel and his team to acknowledge those achievements and badges.
100%. Yeah, Marcel, I mean, I think that's a good transition point.
I think you've been putting out some really strong imagery for the ODK experience,
and I think that the crowd might want to hear a little bit more about some of what you have up your sleeve.
Hi there, guys.
GM, GM, GM, GM.
So about what we are doing, you know, you've been discussing the ODK and the potential.
You've been discussing the ODK and the potential.
I just briefly want to touch a bit the topic.
How convenient it is to work with ODK.
I think guys can confirm.
Just for example, our game, which is going to be released together.
Once the games from the builders are going to start, we're going to be among the first.
I hope to book a place somewhere
after one doom it would be lovely so uh it was really easy to transfer our biomes if you can
if you check um the videos from primal instinct which we posted uh you can see that biomes are
quite uh different from what we have pre-installed.
Let's put it this way.
So we made it with Unreal Engine, and then it was super easy to put it with ODK
and to start to play with it.
We just recently had a play test.
It was a week ago, and it works so smoothly.
It's super nice and the
thing is it's the team is always there to help in case there is some there are
some questions we always can talk to empty guys we always can talk to you
guys from yoga so it's it's very supportive environment and that's it's
a pleasure to build that.
In regards to the game itself, I don't know if I should cover it now.
We are expecting to make a big poster where we're going to describe the mechanics of the game.
Just to put it short, it's about four tribes which are going to compete with each other the map is really huge it's going
to I mean from 800 people to 1000 people simultaneously playing it's it's gonna be
really good so it's gonna be enough for sure and the idea is that one tribe has to conquer all the others. By conquer you need to demolish the main building of the other tribe.
The one which is left after the war is the winner.
We're gonna have different mechanics right now.
With the first phase of Primal Instinct, we're gonna put in the fighting mechanics.
Obviously, you're gonna have three different types of clubs.
And the other mechanic is crafting.
So you're going to gather resources.
And with the resources, you can update your club.
The better your club, the better you fight.
So, and the third, you need to demolish the buildings.
That's for the first phase.
And I think apes gonna
love it and not just the apes the voyagers and everyone who is polish on other side i think we
have quite a good product coming and uh really proud to share it with you guys
and so the way it kind of nets out, it's like Von Doom with his experience can create a certain round of parameters.
So like, you know, the top pillars get a badge and then Marcel with your experience, you can kind of create your own set of badges.
And then with other page, you could probably make even conditional things.
You could probably make even conditional things.
You have to have a certain badge from Von Doom's experience,
a certain badge from Marcel's experience,
and that gets you to an even more exclusive experience.
These are very composable things,
even though they're completely developed separately.
I think that's a really powerful thing that doesn't really exist
and hopefully will exist almost permissionlessly.
These relationships are developed
while you're not even being active.
You could wake up one day and be like,
oh wow, there's this new thing
that these other people put together
as part of an experience
and I have the badges to be able to get into that.
So I think that's a really compelling bit of it.
Marcel, I've noticed you've also taken some license on you know some of the
contact kits from the odk well first of all like where can people find because uh you have a lot
of stuff posted on on your own twitter but like where can people find more about the project
uh there is a page primal instinct, and actually the main posts are there.
But now, you know, we've been posting just kind of marketing and short posts,
so where you can see the biomes, the environments, and it's not something designed or drawn.
It's already existing, and you can find a video from the real test which we've been uh doing recently i've
been i'm going to edit uh the link on the page uh to this space just second in the comments
uh just yeah i'm gonna put it there
sorry can you hear me guys yeah i Yeah, I could hear you. Thanks.
I think people in the crowd will like being able to have that direct link.
Nana, I know you've been probably poking around or fondue too on what Marcel has been up to.
What do you guys think about that?
That's a pretty different experience than what we've seen so far being developed in other lanes of other sites. I was checking out of the video teaser this morning.
It looks dope.
We were actually talking about it at our morning daily.
Yeah, and the artwork is really beautiful.
I think that was the first thing that really caught my attention
is just like, okay, really great use of putting, like,
like, okay, really great use of putting like the content packs together. And I'm looking forward
the content packs together.
to kind of the gameplay aspects of it even further. But man, what was also really impressive
was you hear someone like Garga, like, I didn't even realize this was people, you know what I
mean? Because you can
literally take these tools and run with it. And this was such a great example of that. And to be
honest, like, I remember, Phil Baca shared it in one of the group chats, and I saw it was posted
like, three days ago. And I'm like, how did I not know about this? This looks amazing. And yeah, I just, you know, it's just one example of,
yo, you get some people who are pretty dangerous, you know,
building with these tools.
And it just makes me excited to unlock this for so many other creators.
You know, one thing that I love about, especially about OtherPage
is that it's going to be such a unique place to be able to find all these different communities,
right? Like, one thing that we need is because Primal Instinct, I first saw this just yesterday
as well, and I was watching the video.
Highly recommend if you have not looked at Marcel's page, go to his page and also Primal Instinct, because it's just so cool to see, like, I didn't even know this was going to be launching.
And there's so many games and developers that you may not even know about. But one thing I love about what you're developing, Nana, is that this is going to be a parallel world
is going to be so much easier to navigate
with something like Other Page,
where you can go and find, oh, like, what's this badge?
Where'd they get this?
And then you can go explore.
I'd love to hear just like the,
like you had been thinking about this,
like Other Page has been around for years now and you had thought
about this from the very beginning of OtherSide announcement. So I'd love just to hear kind of
the foresight that you had to think like this is something that is really needed so that people
can find each other and then how are you going to make it easy for builders or developers
to be able to tap into that network i mean i know from my personal experience i was like i'd love
for the crazy carls to have a page and a community and you got that done like immediately so i i'd
love to hear a little bit about the foresight but then also like how you guys are making it easy for developers to connect with you so that they can have a place where people can find, you know, different badges and communities and be able to find others that are able to connect with them.
Yeah, I mean, it really, like Von Doom said, like discoverability, that's a key thing. He mentioned it a little bit earlier
with reference to Fortnite and such. And even in Web3, many communities were labeled as
project-based communities. And the Grailed, out of all the communities, should very well know that it's beyond just a PFP.
It's beyond just a project.
It's the people behind them and how they're all coming together on certain things.
And so how do we actually, how do we catalog that?
How do I showcase that I'm part of these multiple communities?
case that I'm part of these multiple communities. And so we had the ability to join communities
and be able to flex a primary community. Already, that started to create a social graph of,
you know, okay, these are people who join my community. And out of all these different members,
take a look at all the other communities that they're a part of.
And there's some really great insights because not only do you get to see how your community is made up, it helps not only their virtual and digital experiences, but their profile and the ability to explore their profile
and how they're connected and what they're proud of. Those are all things that I think is really,
really rich data. And in that case, how do we bring that data to these experiences so that
they can talk to each other, that the experience that you're
jumping into can acknowledge all of that data that that user is bringing in that is really
their data. It's theirs. They want to bring it with them. And so how do we offer some of those
rails to be able to tap into that? And I think you'll really start to see more on that front in terms of how
we're thinking about evolving the application in terms of discoverability, because there's many of
these communities that don't have their own website or maybe not spin up their own discord.
And this could be a really great way for them to be able to connect
with their community and get them involved into these different experiences and go on these
different quests together so i think there's lots of really interesting things of how this will
evolve and i think with other side it's just going to's just going to put this stuff on steroids because we have more experiences to be able to jump in with each other.
It's crazy because there's, you know, we've been at this for years now and like in especially for the NFT OGs, like everyone has been waiting. And we were like, we believe in a decentralized world
where builders can create their own things. And like the interconnectivity of it all is so
important. And I feel like what you're building with other page really helps allow for like this,
this network effect, like you were saying, like these social maps, like a grid for people to find other
products. But the really cool part is that there's so many, it's like all of these different
builders in Web3 that were just really excited about developing further and creating platforms
that other people can interact with. And I think that's what's so cool about what we're going to
see with OtherSide. And like Figgy has talked about, it And I think that's what's so cool about what we're going to see with other side.
And like Figgy has talked about,
it's not something that's going to be replicated
and it's because of the uniqueness
of each individual builder.
So I had a follow-up question for you too, Von Doom,
especially because you're a little more
of a seasoned developer.
You've worked in seen the back,
the background of how these things work with Fortnite. And I loved how you were specifically
talking about how, you know, the, there just really isn't a way to monetize in Fortnite.
It made me immediately go to like thinking about how the blockchain pulled in so many people with art and artists flocking in 2021 and 2022 with NFTs because they finally had a way to be able to monetize their skill.
So I foresee other side being a place where that could also play a role.
also play a role. I'm curious how, for developers that are out there, how do you think about like,
and how does other side do a good job of marketing and figuring out a way so that people can monetize
their game? Is it the in-game assets? Is it being able to create like tournament style things with
Ape? How are you thinking about like monetizing and other side and how can other developers do the same?
I mean, I think in general, there's a variety of ways
to try to keep the lights on and profit from something
like this with Web3 Rails, right?
Obviously in a high visual fidelity multiverse
or not multiverse metaverse,
um, cosmetics are big, right? Emotes are big. Gun skins are big. I mean, we know this from call of duty. We know this from Fortnite.
We know this from a myriad of other games, right? To have it where,
and with Fortnite, I mean, there is a way to make money on Fortnite,
but what Fortnite does is they take out of a hundred percent of the money
that's generated by,
you know, all the in-game purchases, all the cosmetics and emotes and all the other stuff,
they take 40% of that money and it's split between all developers, but all developers
also includes Epic, right? So in a sense, you're competing with the platform while you're doing it,
right? And being the discovery is broken there. That's one thing that I want to make sure that doesn't happen here, because, you know, there it's like you can you have a great experience. But if even even if even with an epic pick, there's just so much noise in the platform now and the habits are already formed. Right. So people are going to the games they went to four years ago, five years ago when creative first came out.
five years ago when creative first came out um people don't funnel out to new things right there's
got to be a fix for that i mean i think other page to a point could be one of the fixes for that
i think some of the stuff that we're looking at wanting to do could be a fix for that right um
because like i said cosmetics emotes skins you know gun skins um all of that stuff i think is
key because you don't just have one hoodie in your closet. You probably have a bunch of hoodies in your closet, right?
So you might want to have your character have the same, you know, also other, um, playable
characters, other NFTs that are rigged for 3d that are up to metaverse standards.
So you can take it from other side, maybe to somewhere else, if you want to go somewhere
else with it.
So you have that interoperability, that true interoperability more so than just what, you know, Sweeney's been talking about that interoperability, that true interoperability, more so than just what Sweeney's been talking about
with interoperability,
but the interoperability to the point
where you own the asset.
And if you decide, hey, I didn't realize
that I paid 200 bucks for this thing
and now it's worth 25K and I can sell it to somebody.
I think I'm going to take that money,
buy a couple more things and go on vacation, right?
That's true interoperability where you own the asset.
So I think leaning into that stuff makes sense.
I think creating fun experiences that are great game loops
that people want to come back to and in-app purchases,
in-game purchases, stuff like that is all key to success.
Yeah, I love that.
I figured, yeah, I was going to ask you to add on
and I'd love to hear what
you and the other side the yuga team are thinking about like with the economics of the other side
and pulling in and how are we how are you thinking about basically uh getting more and more developer
attention so that once this thing kicks off it's just like a snowball effect.
Yeah, I mean, I think discoverability is super key,
but I guess to break that down into something that's less abstract,
we've already talked about here how OtherPage can kind of support cross-discoverability.
Oh, there's a badge for this? I don't have this one.
I've never even heard of this other thing before,
but I'm noticing that I don't have a badge for it,
or that somebody else does.
So there's kind of like off-platform discoverability,
but direct discoverability, it's, you know,
some of the challenges around it.
I don't think we'll have the same problems that Fortnite Creator has.
I think we'll have different problems. So fortnite creator has i think we'll have different problems so you know in a hypothetical world again we should all be able to like go to sleep at night
and wake up and then there's a new experience and somebody else built it didn't have to coordinate
with us did it totally permissionlessly and that happens you at scale. The problem with that is, like, I actually really enjoy the idea that anybody can do that.
But I do think there has to be some sort of minimum threshold for the type of world that they build out.
Like, for instance, Bathroom Blitz is a very well-thought-out, cohesive, bug-bashed experience.
very well thought out, cohesive, bug bashed experience.
But if somebody walks into the ODK and they just lay down an empty ground playing and
that's all that's there, it's just like a gray card.
I don't know that we would want to like promote that experience as like, hey, you should check
this out.
Like somebody's just tried something, right?
But they should have the ability to publish whatever
they want it's almost like getting a web page and publishing like just a black background it's like
okay i can't stop you from doing that but if that's all that experience is then it probably
won't get featured i think it's actually easier now for first movers who are building on the odk
to get these kind of like priority spots in the navigation and the discoverability so if we're saying hey here's like the mainline experience but also if you want to go to the odk
experiences which are like in integral branches of other side like here's a navigation pane in which
you can dive into those experiences i do think there has to kind of be an above the line and
below the line design separation between stuff that is like, okay, yeah, this is like,
cohesive, it totally makes sense. And then like, these down here are like science experiments,
like, they could just break pretty easily. And, and I think that we would be in all of our best
interests to just make sure that we're featuring, like the best possible experiences. And that's where it's going to get a little bit of trial and error,
because quality is judged on many different axes.
There's certainly a lot of experiences in Roblox and in Minecraft
of very minimalist, very rudimentary mechanics,
but that kind of works in its favor.
So if somebody by design wants to make something
that's like very minimalist, very simple,
borderline stupid, but everybody's kind of into it,
well, then you have to be able to rate
that type of attention on one scale, right?
I think a good kind of like,
a good mental model is like,
we've actually faced this problem on ApeChain too.
In the development of ApeChain last year, we wanted to make it easy.
The way that you found apps on ApeChain, or prior to ApeChain, the way that you found apps was you heard about them on Twitter.
And you're fishing for apps.
There are ecosystem pages, but they're all kind of horrible.
This is a problem that's been solved by many people you go to like hbo max or netflix or hulu or steam
like they all have an organizational system for how you can discover new things right and i think
right now the advantage for first movers in the odk like the people that are up on stage is that
we're going to really be able to dial in the presentation
and make it easy to drive as much traffic as possible
to these people who are here early.
I think for the people who are experimenting,
we're going to have to have a natural filter to be like,
these are more experimental worlds,
but when they clear certain thresholds,
that's when we can start to feature them, right?
That's not to say that we would restrict access or anything.
That's just more about discoverability.
And when people, you know, the platform inherently makes suggestions on where to go next.
So we would prioritize those high-quality experiences or those attention-grabbing experiences
and then have to filter down ones that are just being published as experiments or as learning projects,
but they're not necessarily end-to-end experiences from whole cloth, right?
So that's the bit on discoverability.
I think on digital objects and the stuff that can be collected and traded,
certainly I see one of the big things about the other side as a meta RPG
is it's really like a collector platform more than anything else.
Like, you do these things and you go through these experiences
and you can collect something at the end of it.
And we've seen that kind of with Second Trip, for instance.
I thought it was a really interesting example to see, like, in Second there was actually like a four team combat game at one point where a four team competition and the winning team actually won this winged helmet.
But if you take that a step further and you actually like look at that winged helmet, why should it trade for anything?
Like, why would anybody want to be able to collect a winged helmet?
Why would anybody want to be able to collect a winged helmet?
And I think it's because that's a memento of an experience, and the winged helmet itself reflects the value that people put on the experience.
And I think that's interesting to measure up against, well, how much did it cost to put that whole experience together in the first place?
put that whole experience together in the first place.
And if these experiences cost less than the market cap of the artifacts they create,
that's kind of a really interesting system, but it's not easy to create.
And I think that's what we're trying to discover here.
Again, one of the biggest inspirations for the ODK is this idea that like Warcraft 3
had this game mode called use map settings.
It's basically like they've got this campaign to
play warcraft 3 but also if you wanted to tinker you could take the archers and the trees and the
lakes and you could kind of like organize your own game and put that up for other people to play
and that's where defense of the ancients or dota came from right like that's it came from warcraft
3 and the two developers ginsinsu and IceFrog,
they actually had to go outside of that system
to be able to capture the value that they created.
Like, that's how League of Legends and Dota 2 came about.
And what we're trying to do is create
those same kind of, like, use map settings rails,
except have a system for the value accrual to go back to the creators that are
creating it. I think that's one of the main reasons why we had such an influx in the last
cycle is because the royalty mechanism allowed creators to continue building more stuff for the
digital objects that have. And you kind of like, it's not even a debate at this point, really seeing
a lot of attrition in the development of new projects with the departure of that mechanism.
And so it's our intent to be able to provide the tools that bring that kind of a mechanism back.
I love that. Yeah. And I think that we're going to, I mean, you guys have, we've seen that already on ApeChain with the flourishing NFT community.
And I assume the same will go for when other side launches. I think
we're going to see that. And I couldn't be more excited. I know this hour has flown by. I wanted
to, before we end, I did want to talk a little bit about AI because I know, Figgy, you've been
diving into AI a lot. And I would love to hear what you've been seeing because you've been head down.
I know you were just saying that you were telling me before the show that you were at Google talking about AI.
So I wanted to hear a little bit more of what's going on with AI.
Yeah, I talked a little bit about that.
You may not have been able to hear some of the stuff, but I was just talking about how much growth
there has been from a compute standpoint.
And that tells me that there's demand that's adjacent.
And one of the things is that agents can't open bank accounts
for KYC reasons, for a bunch of regulatory reasons.
You can't have an AI agent as the person
who's custodian of a bank account,
but you can have AI agents who are custodians of crypto wallets. So I feel like it's just a natural
eventuality that the agentic growth has to cross over into crypto and that there's a lot of
worthwhile investigations on how that can happen. That's one of the main reasons I'm up here is just
make sure that I'm really clued into what's going on. Same reason why I went to Sleaze to figure out like what's
happening in the art world and how do they treat digital art projects. I think like a
lot of this stuff is happening just adjacent to us. So we got to keep our eyes on it. A
lot of the stuff earlier on this year, the marketing was really far ahead of like where
I think the products were. And I think that because things like AI 16Z are open source, you can get a lot of
development on it, but like that was a total classic, you know, drinking from a
fire hose situation where there's like a lot of CRs that are open.
Basically like there's a, there's a GitHub, there's like a library for all
any non-technical folks in the audience.
There's basically like a masterpiece of code
that everybody is working on at the same time,
but there were so many people trying to contribute to that code
that it just became kind of like a bottleneck
to upgrade all of that stuff.
And until those changes were made to that source code,
we're not all playing off the same sheet of music,
or like, I'll give you like a very direct example.
We wanted to be able to deploy things like AI 16Z
on a Linux Docker, right?
Like we want to be able to like deploy it in the cloud.
Some of this stuff isn't really,
so like we can't put AI 16Z on Linux at the time.
And what we could have done was fork the code
and done it ourselves,
but then we don't get to capture
all of the other great stuff
that's coming from all the other developers.
And so it's kind of hard to actually
meaningfully develop that months ago,
but the velocity is increasing now.
A lot of that stuff has been cleared.
So I think you're going to see a resurgence of that meta
and it's going to come back bigger because work
has been done and there's probably going to be a lot less cul-de-sacs and so obviously that's
something that i'm really interested about um in something like you know a meta rpg a digital
social space like other side because i think in past games when you talk to people or things or you do experiences, a lot of that dialogue is deterministic.
It's like fixed.
And that helps in some ways.
There's a dialogue tree.
But I also think that we all realize the possibilities here.
If some of that stuff is a little bit more living and breathing, it just like a matter of corralling it and directing that that kind of um feature in a productive way so there's a lot
happening there and i think that's one of the things we're probably gonna tip on in the near
future to give people a little bit more insight on how those ideas can be a little bit more relatable for the
masses wow yeah i my mind was just blown sorry if you went over some of that i was having major
connection issues at the beginning um one thing what that you just mentioned i mean it totally
makes sense why the agentic world and any sort of uh just the digital infrastructure, the economic infrastructure that we need for the
digital era has to be through crypto and blockchain.
I mean, it just makes sense.
Getting rid of all of these other rails slowly over time is just going to happen because of the
seamlessness of crypto.
But it just blows my mind thinking one day in five or 10 years walking
around other side and like interacting with people and not knowing if it's a human or an AI.
It just that just blows my mind because it's all going to be so fluid at some point in our lifetime, which is just wild and kind of gives you like this,
I don't know, this existential crisis almost of like, what is life? But I'm sure we'll all
experience that together over the coming years. All right, guys, we are coming to an end of our
conversation tonight. But man, this was a
good one. And just as we wrap up, I want to thank everyone that took time out of their night to join
us for another episode of Grail Chat. A special thanks to my co-host, Michael Figge, and the
legends Nana, Von Doom, and Marcel for taking time out of their day to join us. It's always amazing
to connect and join community to have these conversations.
And I don't know about you guys,
but I'm even more excited about Other Side
after tonight's chat.
One housekeeping matter before we close out,
the next Grail chat will be on June 19th
because of traveling schedules.
That's three weeks instead of our usual biweekly routine.
And we will look forward to seeing everyone then.
Have an amazing beginning of summer and we'll see you all in a few weeks. Good night, everyone.
And usually I would do my play out here, but because of my connection issues,
I had to switch over the computer. So we're going to end things out just like this.
Have a good evening, everyone.
