Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
GrassRootsCrypto Explains Important Developments On THORChain
Recorded: July 9, 2025 Duration: 2:38:30Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorChain is set to revolutionize decentralized trading with the launch of its new exchange, partnerships for decentralized applications, and the introduction of innovative features like EDDSA support and Noble USDC integration, paving the way for enhanced liquidity and user engagement.
Full Transcription
Thank you. There you go, right on.
All right, while we wait for everybody else to jump in, let me do some PSAs.
So for anyone new to ThorChain, here's a quick introduction.
ThorChain is a decentralized exchange. It can swap Bitcoin with thousands of different cryptocurrencies, all without wrap tokens
and all from your self-custody wallet. There's no KYC on ThorChain. It's permissionless. The token
of ThorChain is RUNE, spelled R-U-N-E. And you don't have to buy or hold Rune to place a swap on ThorChain.
If you want to swap on ThorChain, go to ThorChain.com.
If you scroll down a bit, you'll see a section called Built with ThorChain.
You see all the wallets and websites that use ThorChain,
and you can use the interface you want to use.
Also pretty cool is Rujira is building decentralized binance on top of thor chain
so all the features and everything you know you're used to seeing in binance you're going
to see in regira and it's slowly being rolled out as we speak um if you hold a rune on a centralized
exchange like binance you should withdraw it into self-custody you know they might be using it there
to short sell and drive their price on down
on yourself and once in self custody uh kenton are you there maybe it's just me did you get rugged
into the recording repose the space with comments or questions.
No, let's try and get some virality here.
And this space is aimed towards anyone in their authority and journey.
Whether you're brand new or you've been here for a few years, we try to have something for everybody.
So if something is too simple, be patient.
If something is too complicated, be patient. If something's too complicated, be patient.
We'll try to make it digestible for all of you.
And yeah, are you there, Patriot?
Can you hear me?
I can hear you.
Excellent.
Well, Grassroots Crypto is here.
You want to test your mic grassroots
yep hey can hear you maybe a little quiet brother if you could turn that volume up but yes i can hear you uh you think we should do some introductions kenton yeah sure so i'll keep going with me my
name is kenton ralph toes i've got a fund that invests in Rune and runs nodes on Thorchain. So I'm a node operator on Thorchain.
And yeah, over to you, Patriot.
My name Patriot sounds the moniker.
My real name is Denny.
I'm an educator, content creator for Thorchain.
I've been doing this for five years.
Love Thorchain, love Ruggiero, love it all, guys.
Grassroots, crypto.
Chris, you want to give us
instructions of yourself, sir? Hello everyone, my name is Chris. I do educational content,
crypto education. I've been in the Thorchain space for quite some time. I've created a lot
of videos on Thorchain and I like to get into the weeds and understand, I guess, what's happening,
like actually how it works and have a look to what's happening in the future.
I think that's what keeps me excited about 4Chain
with an understanding of what's happening
and trying to put the pieces together
and figure out what's going to happen forward.
And Chris, you have a YouTube channel, right?
Yeah, YouTube channel, Grassroots Crypto, that has, like I said, many YouTube videos on 4Chain.
I generally try and do an update as well.
The last one was a bit large.
Just get into more of the details of what's happened in 4Chain and what's going to happen,
what's on the roadmap and how that works.
Just trying to add a bit more context and compact the information into one spot
because it is it is hard to keep up it is very hard and you do a fantastic job so like anyone
listening if you've you know if you're wanting to look more into ThorChain you know kind of go below
surface level and try to understand more how it works it's a beast and Chris does a fantastic job at taming that beast for you.
Like every technical aspect of Thor chain,
he's got a video for it.
And he walks you through the technical, like it's,
and I mean, you must have, I don't know,
a hundred videos by now.
Like it's amazing how much content you have there.
But you've covered everything as far as I know, right?
Pretty much.
Perhaps the new stuff I'd need to get into.
I want to get more into how the Rajira is working in with ThorChain.
I did one on trade, but there's probably more to do there.
Well, let's kick off the space end.
So the way this space came up is in Discord. there's probably more to do there well let's keep okay so let's kick off the space end so we
the way this way this space came up is in in discord you posted some updates and features that
are on the horizon that you're excited about and want to talk about and um um so where do you where
do you want to start which new feature do you want to get into here yeah so when i was doing my own
video i was going through and'm like, there are some pretty
cool features here.
I don't think they're perhaps talked about as much.
Chad did talk about some of these cool features in the last space, which I hadn't heard.
And then there's some cool stuff coming up.
So I've kind of tried to group them into specific parts.
And I think that by there's perhaps going to be something for everyone.
And I thought we might start with node operators and security improvements, which is probably
something you like, Kenton.
Sure.
And then we can just go through node operations, swap efficiencies and memory improvements, which is all about improving the layer one.
Like when Thorfire was going on, everyone was like,
oh, we should just be concentrating on the base layer,
improving swaps.
So there's some pretty cool changes that are in
that are doing that.
And then we'll go through some of the provisions
for the app layer that are happening.
So the base layer changes in order to support some of the things that are going to the provisions for the app layer that are happening so so the baseline
changes in order to support some of the things that are going to be done on the app layer
cool um let's start with the node stuff
sure so there's the first one is to put your node into maintenance mode and i'd like to ask you
can tell what your thoughts are it's where you've you're an active node operator you need to do some maintenance so you can kind of like go it's
not churn out but just sort of like hit the pause button where you're not going to get slashed
because you need to do some maintenance i think that's fantastic news yeah yeah well and i should
be clear chris i'm working with liquefy so I'm not the human being actually operating the node.
So that, yeah, I'm working with the Liquify team.
So it's Andy.
Andy is the actual human operating the node for us.
Okay, cool.
I got a question on that.
Yeah.
Okay, let's say, can there be a problem?
This is totally far-fetched, but what if you had one Asgard vault
and more than 33% of the nodes were in maintenance mode?
Would they be able to sign transactions, receive assets?
Yeah, that is a good question.
I'd have to, that is a good question i'd have to that is a check question because like if you could have it where they're in maintenance mode where they're not necessarily like getting
all the observations it would see whether that would extend to fail to do a um a key signing
because yeah if you didn't have 33 of the nose for a specific Asgard vault able to do key signing, then obviously you can't sign an outbound.
In which case, it would just revert to another vault.
So if the outbound was to occur, it would just be an issue with that vault
until the consensus is reformed.
I'm just having these thoughts on my mind.
My thought just immediately came to my mind.
It's like, what if we just had like this
bug or something that was causing nodes to get slashed and they didn't want to get slashed right
so would it be a potential problem if just a majority of nodes like well i don't want to get
slashed i'm just going to go into maintenance mode would would that possibly seize up the protocol is
there or i could be exaggerating the effect but that's what my mind immediately went to.
I don't know,
but I'll find out.
Okay, sorry. It comes strong
with a question. Continue, good sir.
That was a great question, man.
Yeah.
I'll be messaging
Chad.
The intention,
though, the idea is that the intent of that update is so Node doesn't have to churn out.
They can stay in the network, do whatever maintenance they want, and then turn themselves back on.
That's the idea, right?
Yeah, because obviously you have to wait for a churn.
You can't leave the active validator set just on willy-nilly.
You have to wait until the network churn occurs.
So if you have to do some minor maintenance,
I don't know, take something offline,
increase some memory, increase some storage,
then you have that option if it's going to be
a short-term maintenance thing as opposed to,
I need to go offline and rebuild my server.
Yeah. I like it. I think it's great. I mean, I appreciate the need, I appreciate the value in
rotating the nodes, keeping it fresh. But I mean, at the same time, it's a lot of work and effort
to get a node into the network, get the BOM providers, keep an eye on things, whatever.
And if you have to constantly pull the node out to do stuff,
that can be a real distraction.
And is it really adding any value to ThorChain by kicking you out?
I don't think so.
We want to keep you in, right?
Yeah.
The next one is to delete node mimeers.
So, like, we've seen this a lot where we're adding to chains
and stuff where there's all these different mimeers created
and it can be confusing or duplicates confusing.
So node operators have the ability to do that,
which really helps governance.
It helps understand what's happening,
understand what the node operators are voting on
and to ensure that we're just,
we're all looking at the right value.
So yeah, if you vote minus one, is it just like,
well, does it show as minus one?
Or it just erases your vote as if you didn't vote at all yet type thing?
It erases your vote.
It also carries for the people that I voted incorrectly.
I fat fingered.
So I can remove my vote and then vote again.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Is there,
I'm just trying to think because if somebody voted fat fingered or voted wrong,
isn't there always a status quo vote or I guess I'm just trying to think.
Yeah, no, no, it's fine.
Never mind.
Yeah.
I assume this has happened enough times.
That's why it's been proposed and put into the code.
There's been enough requests by notes to do this.
I hope nothing has been approved inadvertently
because somebody couldn't remove their vote.
Has that happened? I don't think so yeah i don't think we've had that problem thankfully
we've so the code base would generally look at one version of this mimiya you know let's say the
quote-unquote correct one but it has been the case where the wrong mimi key is being put out and people have been voting on that and then it's just like that's the wrong one and then there's duplicates
and you look at it you're like which is the right one it's confusing oh like a spelling mistake you
mean yeah oh so we can dash okay and so we can erase that spelling mistake premier vote so we can vote minus one that'll make it
disappear well at least your vote for it because yeah at least your vote for it
so then you can walk these things out or also you can say well i'm voting for this chain actually
i've decided to change my mind now i'm not going to vote for this chain and that would then remove it your vote okay okay i noticed somebody voted the slip min basis points uh spelled
it wrong so for for that node can they go and vote minus one, and then that'll remove the that vote for that slip, that spelling mistake,
that won't show up anymore going forward.
Or would they have to do minus five or minus eight?
I can't remember.
I can't remember they voted five or eight.
But would they have to do minus five or minus eight to?
It has to be a minus one.
Minus one.
It says there.
Yeah. OK okay gotcha and then it deletes there
deletes as it says there all knows um when all those delete votes that removes the key
so all the nodes have to have reversed that if they put that in
so even though the spelling mistake was made all now all nodes would have to vote minus one
on that spelling mistake to remove it?
Yeah, because, like,
if you've got three nodes that voted for that,
then those three nodes would need to reverse it
because those, you know, MAMI is just a string.
So it votes for whatever the string, whatever the value is.
So it has to be voted for the correct one
for the code change to take effect to say,
like, if we have a consensus,
there's more than two thirds that vote for this particular value,
then we'll consider that approved.
Okay.
So it's not going to consider spelling mistakes or anything.
Yeah, so only the three that have made the spelling mistake,
it's only the three that need to correct it to have it go away to remove it.
Okay, gotcha.
That's good.
Cool.
Well, there was another one.
It's from, do you remember what it is, the spelling mistake?
I want to say it was like a year, a year and a half ago.
I remember the event, but I don't remember what it was
it was just a little off and everyone
was so confused so this is a
welcome change
absolutely
okay cool
what's next on the next one
yeah
we talked about this, this was talked about
last time, the TVL scaling, the dynamic
TVL scaling so the dynamic TVL scaling.
So the security posture has gone through some changes and going from the top three thirds and then like effective security and that type of stuff.
So now it's the total active bond.
And then there's a percentage scaling factor on top of that as well.
So that is what controls the emissions of liquidity to
the network. So whether you can add more or swapped from an asset where the outbound is
going to be held by the network. So that's, say, swap into L1 Bitcoin through to secured asset
Bitcoin. So that gives node operators the control to increase or even to decrease the TVL cap,
the control to increase or even to decrease the TVL cap,
which I think is pretty good.
It gives a lot of more control and optionality
for the node operators to adjust that security posture.
So maybe we can just, let's maybe rewind a bit
if somebody's not familiar with it.
So originally, how was Thor is thor chain does the security
posture on thor chain what was the design how much how much money or how much room do we have to have
bonded versus in the pools generally you wanted um it was two-thirds rune to to uh to to bond
because you've got obviously a third of the rune inside of the pool but essentially
you wanted the if you take the total pooled value you want to double that in rune in in rune bond
so that was kind of like the nice incentive pendulum equilibrium so then so the idea was if
you had one dollar of rune in the pools two $2 of rune bonded in nodes, that meant in
the pool, you actually had, there's $2 of value in the pool.
You had $1 of rune, $1 of crypto.
So it's $2 total in the pools.
And then you had $2 total in the bonds.
So if somebody were to steal-
Pardon?
$4. Pardon? $4. $4.
So if you had $2 worth in the pool, you want $4 in bond.
$4 in bond. And then so if somebody stole...
If the nodes stole the crypto from the pools,
you're basically using $4 to steal $2.
Sorry, $4 to steal $1 because you're going to lose $4 from your bond to steal $1 of crypto.
Is that the idea?
Yeah, because also the thing is, the assumption would be if you steal from the network, Rune goes to zero.
So that's why your bond is essentially lost. So the key point would be if you steal from the network, rune goes to zero.
So that's why your bond is essentially lost.
You don't really care as a node operator,
the actual value inside the pool,
the rune value inside of the pool.
But yet it's still that crypto is not economically feasible.
And so the cap and the TVL is always to? Yes. So to ensure that, yeah, it doesn't go bananas and the incentive pendulum will allow some
variation, but you never wanted more pooled value.
So that's the idea of the TVL cap, right?
Yes.
So to ensure that, yeah, it doesn't go bananas and the incentive pendulum will allow some
variation,
but you never wanted more pooled value,
so what's in the pool, the value of that to exceed what's bonded.
And now, oh, sorry.
Additionally, back in the day, there was these you got to solve alts,
which is kind of like what they call fast vaults,
that node operators would hold and have the keys to.
So they could legitimately very easily steal crypto
from the network.
And the bond would be an incentive not to do that.
Now those eager to sell vaults, they're gone.
And so we're just, okay.
So I have to worry about that anymore um
but but now we're relaxing the tvl cap of the network to allow more crypto in the pools relative
to the bond size right well it it depends on your time frame so you know if you go back all the way to the beginning you could
say it's going back to the same because at the moment it's it's the total pooled value and that's
how full chain started off but over time it went to less and less so the the amount of you needed
essentially more in the bond in order to um in order to secure the pools or put it another way.
What was considered security got reduced, if that makes sense.
So then that impacts the incentive pendulum.
So now this resets the security posture to the way it was before.
the security posture to the way it was before.
But the difference is instead of total pooled now,
you've also included the vaulted security,
which includes like the trade assets
and the secured assets.
Okay.
And the, but this is,
so the TVL dynamic setting,
the TVL cap dynamic setting right now,
it's set back to the same posture
that ThorChain had when it launched, basically.
But it could be the setting is in place
so that it can be tweaked further.
If you want to relax it even more, we can.
Or if you want to make it more strict, we can.
That's the whole point of this new feature is that we can dynamically change it right
yep yes basically we take the total pooled and then you've you've got a percentage that you can
either you can increase it so at the moment it's one so you just times you go by one so it's the
same thing then you could times it by 1.5 or 0.95 so that way you can increase or decrease what is considered security
and then that affects the addition to the network so if it's over that then no more funds can be
added to the network so if it's set at one right now the total total TVL can equal the amount,
the dollar amount bonded, right?
I'll have to check the code on that.
I think that would be the, yeah, the max of the bonded rune um
yeah it's a it's a helper function and then when you're doing add or you're
swapping to or some other stuff yeah it just goes to check to see whether it's
a helper function and then when you're doing add or you're swapping to or some
other stuff yeah it just goes to check to see whether it's a helper function and then when you're doing add or you're swapping to or some other stuff yeah it's a it's a helper function and then when you're doing ad or you're swapping to
or some other stuff yeah it just goes to check to see whether or not you the the total pooled value
or the vaulted security in rune value is has to be less than the um total or the security posture
in this case the total um bonded and if if it's going to exceed, then it says,
oh, no, you can't add any more to the network.
And you're right, before it was the effective security,
which was a very conservative posture.
And so the idea of putting this in is that there's been lots of talk
about relaxing the hard cap further.
So maybe we'd wanna change it,
maybe there's a desire interest to change it to two,
which means you could have two times the TVL value
relative to the bond value.
And basically have more crypto in the pools
than what is being secured by the bonds.
And that's, there's no plan or anything like that,
but that's possible at some point, right?
Yeah, and that from a node point of view,
you would just vote on TVO cap basis points Mimir
and change that to whatever you want.
And...
Sorry.
I was saying, and the push for this was app layer, right?
Is that, you know, in order for us to scale secured assets, you know, we need to rethink
the policy, the security policy, security stance on Torchain.
And it was decided to look at starting to relax the hard
cap at some point yep yeah yes and that then that allows the node operators to do that to say oh well
we want to go to 120 150 or whatever the case may be, they can discuss, come to a consensus and then vote on that.
And then that takes the decision making or the process away from the depths.
It's all then in the hands of the node operators.
So what's your take on it?
You know, it's been kind of a contentious subject over the last few months.
Are you, you think it's okay you should relax it
open it wide open no you think we need to keep it strict and tight where and where do you fall
that's a good question um the obviously things have changed in ThorChain since it first came out. The bonds there to secure the assets, so node operators can't rug, obviously, the liquidity in the network because they have control over the Asgard vault.
a bit definitely got a bit too conservative in my opinion and with the sharding the six asgard
vaults it makes it incredibly difficult to to get two-thirds of any one vote when anyone node
because when you're churning you don't control what vault you're assigned to so from that point
of view i can see the case for it being relaxed um however I don't think it should be open sliver.
I don't think it should be going nuts.
It should be like a careful and consider step upwards,
understanding that, you know, there's a fine line
between allowing enough room for security
or now allowing enough room for the app layer as well as ensuring that it's a sufficient security So are you saying if I'm assuming you're right, you think at some level, at some amount, at some value of crypto, it would become worth it to try to steal it,
whether from an outsider or insider. But if it's kept low enough, you're basically just
de-incentivizing anybody to try and pull it off. It's not big enough to try.
to try am i understanding you right is that what you're saying
Am I understanding you right? Is that what you're saying?
you know i think it keeps it more in check again i think the the ability to collude and to get
two-thirds of the network is extremely extremely low because you don't like if you went and bought
a whole bunch of rune like you know i don't know 100 million dollars worth of rune and you churned
in you deployed you started up all these nodes i mean everyone would know but and you churned in
you would need more you would need to probably own half the network to try and get a third
um or you would have to own well if i have half the network to own two-thirds of any one vault
because you're randomly selected
amongst those vaults and there's also code that says that if you're from the same node operator
address is deliberately going to distribute you into different vaults so i think it's with the
sharding with the six vaults i feel that makes it much more secure because you can't get you can't
you have to buy a significant amount of
the network like well over two-thirds in order to try and get two-thirds in any one asgard vault
what about inside like existing node operators though you don't think there's a chance of
them breaking bad or maybe they are bad they're just waiting for their opportunity
they are bad they're just waiting for their opportunity you know um right in theory we
don't know each other um there's there's always that possibility um there's always that possibility
and that's why you would want to step it up i think gradually as required and then you know
how much you do it would obviously then
be on the demand for the app layer like you would want to do that in response to something
um but it's one of those things is it's always a risk and what i like again with the with the
sharding thing is if someone does collude and they take a vault they're not taking everything
as opposed to everything in one Asgard vault.
So you kind of like,
you start to mitigate your losses
if that were to occur.
So what about, there's been talk about
with updates to TSS,
the possibility of moving to one giant Asgard vault,
one giant 66 to 99 type thing.
Do you think that would actually be a bit worse
to go to that one giant vault?
Do you think it's actually better
to keep the multiple Asgard vaults as it is?
Yeah, I think trying to get two thirds of one vault
is much harder, but for the reasons I discussed, I like the sharding.
I think there's pros and cons either way.
Sharding was done because to increase the nodes, I think, above 36 in single chain chaos net through to 120.
It just wasn't feasible using TSS.
So that's why they sharded to enable outbounds to happen very
fast and replace those you go solo volts you couldn't you couldn't do it in this current
um with current tss under one vault got it so yeah so that i want to be because i was actually
going to ask the very same question kenton um okay i just want to make sure you clear what you said if you had one vault one big vault it would technically be
easier or harder than if you had six volts because i would think it'd be harder if there was multiple
vaults am i wrong about that you would need it from my opinion you would need more um much more capital to get two thirds
you basically need to buy two thirds of the network uh but obviously if you were to do that
you can take the entire you can take the entire vault right whereas there's no more random
allocation sorry i didn't mean you're up to your go ahead no yeah whereas if you got six then
to get two-thirds,
like, you know, through a lottery system,
you have to buy, I don't know, like 80% of the network
to try and get into, you know, because it's a game,
like randomized, to try and get statistically to get into
two-thirds of any one volt or two volts or three volts.
Okay.
So I think that way it makes it harder
okay so let's let's go at this another angle let's say you had one vault are you grassroots
crypto chris are you worried that we could have a bug that resulted in a vault sending out assets
um erroneously right we somehow we get tricked or whatever um we only have one vault we have you know is is there
isn't there more security if we have multiple vaults in case there's some terrible bug and one
asgard vault sends a lot of assets out not supposed to do that and somehow the solvency
checker is is tricked i don't know this is beyond my understanding are you worried about that or or not now that that exploit well that that
possibility exists now because if there's an asgard vault that doesn't that fails to sign
it just moves on to the next one so that process would would happen irrespective right but if but
if okay my question is if there's one vault isn't like a more of a chance to, for the liquidity to get rugged in one event,
rather if it was just dispersed over like six volts or four volts or
whatever,
you see what I'm saying?
So is that like redundancy in protection for the network or am I not
understanding you correctly?
I think with regards to could,
could,
you know,
is, is six volts versus one volt you know more
drainable i'd say that given the way the network is and the way that falls over to different
volts it's kind of like it's the same because it's the network logically is one volt you can
think of that as one volt it just happens to be six physical volts under the hood for technical
reasons okay okay so code so code wise it'd be the same it's kind of irrespective i see okay
yeah um as well go ahead keep going picture oh this is just gonna add that Chris mentioned a node operator using this.
If somebody's running multiple nodes and they use the same node operator address,
those nodes are split evenly amongst those vaults.
So let's say there's somebody like me running six nodes.
I'm using the same node operator address,
all my six nodes wouldn't go into one vault.
They are purposely split between all six different vaults.
And so the idea there is that if somebody is,
kind of wants to signal that they're trying
to help protect the network,
they're purposely splitting up their nodes into other vaults the one to make
it harder for themselves to steal and then if they're doing that then in theory they're they're
uh altruistic you know trying to help the network and so they're happy to act as defense in the other vaults too um anything you guys want to add to that
yeah i i think you're right um as far as my that's as far as i understand what my brain does
is i just look for a potential like attack vector like if you go to one vault obviously it increases
efficiency of the network dramatically um as long as there's no, I can't, I don't,
this is where it's hard to understand ThorChain,
but then when you go like mediumly underneath the surface
and get into the guts,
that's where I get a little insecure
because as a non-dev,
my understanding of behaviors and the code
might be a little lacking.
So like one thing I just,
I want to just, maybe it's redundant for me to ask a question.
I just want to ask like,
if I could wave a wand right now, now grassroots and we could go to one vault tomorrow with all the code base changes are needed.
You wouldn't see an additional security risk from doing that.
No, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't do that.
Okay.
I wouldn't say one vault is insecure. I wouldn't be that okay then massive security risk and saying oh i wouldn't say one vault is insecure
i wouldn't be saying that okay that's what came to my mind so i you know i trust your judgment on
that so so this is definitely then i don't see a reason why we wouldn't go in this direction then
right like this this should be the goal like because chad bearford when we on the last thing
he said well you know we can think about going to one vault. He said, I'm not sure. And I didn't, I wish I would ask him, what are you not sure about?
Because I didn't know if there was like some potential risk there or not.
But as far as I can tell, based on what you say, there really is no reason, given my understanding,
that we should not pursue that goal to make the network as efficient and as quick as possible.
Yeah, look, with the two-second block times, some of the stuff that's already been done
and DKLS, which is already used in Vault-Sig, then yeah, absolutely possible.
It can go very short.
The block time is with regards to the cycles required in order to churn outbounds.
But then it's a question of, hey, why don't we distribute the attack surface or distribute
the network?
But that's probably a very in-the-weeds type of question.
I think the reason we have Asgard vaults as it is today is because TSS, you have more nodes in a vault,
it's slower to sign, to come up with all the signers.
I think that's why it's split up into smaller.
Remember, we used to have 40 nodes per Asgard vault,
then it was dropped down to 20.
And I'm pretty sure the reasoning was to make things faster,
to increase swap time, or decrease swap time.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
Yeah.
It was when we had the UGDOSO vaults with the fast vaults,
this is back in maybe start of ChaosNet
because we did the same thing in single-chain ChaosNet.
Then it was like we can't really go beyond
a certain node limit because using one vault because the outbounds will happen too quick
so it will happen too slowly and that's where yugasol vaults will come in because they were
just like normal multi multi-chain vaults that node operators would control so then it was like
well if we split the asgard volts into six, and basically
we would create it for every 20 nodes,
we create a new volt.
So there's like a formula.
Nose divide by 20.
So how many votes do you have?
So then if we did that,
then we could remove the
eucalyptusol volts and ensure that we've
got some good processing time for outbounds.
There's a ticket on GitLab that has this where it's all detailed on that process.
I could probably find it if anyone really wants.
Okay, so let me play with that a little bit.
So yes, 20 nodes to a vault.
So if we go to 121 volts, then we would have seven Asgard volts.
Let's just say that happens right let's just say we increase in all like what what effect would you like maybe you don't have
the numbers in front of you but if you just had taken educated guess like how would that affect
the network if that happened next turn would it get like 20 slower or you have any idea what would
happen uh kind of the same thing has gone from five to six like there should be no difference
it's just that then then your 121 is going to be evenly distributed amongst the seven
that's all there's no performance increases or anything like that so okay so maybe
i'm sorry to interrupt you um okay so i think i've been on a misimpression i thought there was some
some limit with the amount of asgard vaults that we could have that affects because of all the
all the different signing between am i wrong about that maybe it's something i've just not
misunderstood i've misunderstood no as my understanding is it's it's cosmos because
you've got two parts you've got the cosmos sdk and that consensus and then
you have the tss the asgard asgard bolts now when with tenderman although we're on cosmos bft or
whatever it's called with at least with tenderman there's a quadratic increase in performance when
you add add a node to the network so the more nodes you add to the network the more performance hit there is
on the thought chain blockchain this is irrespective of the asgard vaults so you could
grow the asgard vaults this is how i understand it as many times as you want like it doesn't
matter you got 50 but it's a cosmos chain issue that they wanted at at least within Tenderbent, which we did upgrade in version 50,
that you can't just continually add nodes to the network indefinitely. I think Cosmos,
like itself, I think it's gone out to 250 from memory, and that was a while ago, the most. So,
you know, theoretically, you could go a little bit more but there are performance limits for the you know the fortune blockchain itself just to be adding
nodes so you know reducing block time reducing the efficiency upgrading and i forget the cosmos
technology it's in an article released late last year that would all help improve the performance aspects for the Cosmos
chain, the 4 Chain blockchain, in order to move to more amount of nodes.
Got it.
Okay.
Thank you for correcting my ignorance on that.
Kenton, did you have anything?
No, no, it's good.
Maybe we should move on to the next topic then?
Yeah, we probably beat that subject to death.
But thank you, Chris.
So what's next on your list, Chris?
I'll just say the DVL cap is independent to the incentive pendulum,
which has kind of like a revenue cap.
So if you're going all the way to liquidity
providers or node operators, there's going to be some doc updates on this, but that's independent
of the TVL cap. So you could have nodes getting all the rewards. If the TVL is good, then it
will still allow additions to the networks and kind of vice versa. So, yeah, and I'll talk about last time,
the incentive pendulum controls revenue.
It doesn't control the cap, whereas the TVO cap factor
obviously controls the addition of liquidity to the network.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't really have anything to say on that front.
If that, we can move on, I guess,
if there's something else.
With regards to TVL cap, so just a quick one.
Native assets are excluded from the TVL cap.
So obviously Rune is not counted.
Tor, Tcy, Rujira, and the Switch assets.
I'm wondering if that makes sense
and whether you guys are comfortable with that idea.
Because obviously, they're native assets
on the 4 Chain blockchain.
So that change was to say that,
well, we should include this inside of the TVL.
Yeah, I think we should break this down.
So I think this is one of the hardest things
for people to understand how Thorchain, how it works.
I'm always, the peanut gallery is always talking about
all these other proof of stake blockchains.
It's really easy to stake or bond their tokens.
Why is ThorChain's security posture like this?
Why is it so hard to bond your rear and all this kind of stuff?
It's because ThorChain is securing external assets, external cryptos, like Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatever.
So if the nodes and the Thorchain nodes got together, stole all the Bitcoin and Ethereum, it's theirs.
They keep it.
It's their bearer assets.
But if in part of that theft, they steal rune, tor, T-C-Y, Ruji, tokens that are native to ThorChain, those tokens go to zero, right?
Because, you know, ThorChain has been compromised, right?
So anything ThorChain native all goes to zero.
And so this is why these native tokens
are not part of the TVL cap
because it doesn't make sense to steal them.
So it's like, this is why it's frustrating
people compare door chain Ethereum.
And they say, well, you know, Ethereum has all this TVL
and it's way more than what the nodes have and blah, blah, blah.
Well, if all the Ethereum nodes got together and stole the stable coins, for example,
they wouldn't get any.
Like Circle and Tether would just refuse to exchange those coins into dollars.
So those stable coins are not bearer assets.
If the Ethereum nodes stole all the ERC-20s, all the meme coins and everything, right?
All the NFTs, they're worthless.
Who are they going to sell them to? They can't because no one's going to use Ethereum because it's all been
compromised, it's all stolen. So they could keep wrapped Bitcoin, right? Because they would control
that contract and whatever Bitcoin is wrapped or in any other bridges and whatnot, they'd be able
to keep those cryptos because those are external assets and bearer assets.
They would keep those. But those are a tiny fraction relative to the amount of Ethereum staked on nodes.
So that's why this conversation keeps coming up on DoorChain about the security posture.
How do we secure billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin without somebody
stealing it?
And so to, but bringing it back to these native assets, if Ruji has a billion dollar market
gap one day and the ThorChain now has decided to try and steal Ruji, well, it's pointless.
It goes to zero because Ruji goes to zero because ThorChain and Ruji has been compromised.
it goes to zero because Ruji goes to zero because the store chain and Ruji has been compromised.
So, yeah, so it doesn't make sense to include native tokens and Thor chain in its security
posture. Did I summarize that good guys? Do you have anything to add to that? Did I get anything
wrong? No, I think you nailed it, man. I think exogenous assets is the one thing that sets
Thor chain apart. These are real layer one assets one assets is real layer one going from layer one to layer one.
Right. So that is the that's the treasure, you know.
And so it's it's you have to have the security posture.
We've we had to put a lot of thought to the security posture just so we don't make a terrible mistake, because if we make a terrible mistake, then those assets are gone and they are on the layer one
and there's nothing you can do.
I totally agree.
We got someone requesting that come up.
Awesome.
Okay, looks like we got 13 heavens.
Did you want to say something, Chris?
I saw your mic unmute there.
No, I agree with that.
I think it's totally legit.
You know, one of the starting off assumptions is that if you hack Ruin, Ruin goes to zero, so agree with that. I think it's totally legit. You know, one of the starting off assumptions
is that if you hack Rune, Rune goes to zero,
so it's worthless.
So, you know, that would then apply
to the other native assets.
If you hack ThorChain and hack Rune,
obviously Rune is going to be suffer and vice versa.
So kind of like everything that's native
kind of falls in the same boat.
So if something happens to any of that, then obviously those zeros are, those assets are kind of zeroed.
So therefore there's no point securing them.
Right.
And, you know, I don't want to derail the conversation too much, but this is why, like in my heart, like I know it's okay if we stay at 120 for a while, but I, you know, people know I'm a permable.
Like I really believe in Thorchain. I really believe in ThorChain.
I really believe in Regera.
I think we have the most amazing developer team probably ever.
I mean, it's incredible.
And the community itself,
everyone listening to this,
you're all wonderful.
But that's kind of why
I feel like the success can get really crazy.
And I just want us to be able to get
that node operator count relatively high.
I mean, it may be the case, as Chris says,
like it's not really feasible to steal the network
given the amount we have,
but I would just like to make it as hard as humanly possible
to make this infrastructure that's just rock solid,
set in stone, just absolutely immutable, right?
And entrusted by everyone
because they just know how much thought
and how robust the system is.
That's kind of where I go.
13Heavens, you have your hand up.
How you doing, buddy?
I'm good.
I'm good.
Thanks for letting me up.
I missed the first little bit.
So I don't know if you guys already covered this,
but you guys were detailing like the security budget
and how to potentially increase that.
I love the idea of making RUJI bondable.
Could you imagine that with the lower supply?
We could really reignite the bond wars
and we could see two, three million dollar bonds
even if we can't get the node count up.
I just think that's an interesting way
to reinvigorate the bond wars.
Can we play with that idea? How do you imagine that? So a bond, a node operator would both be able to accept Ruji and Ruin, essentially? Personally, I would kind of do it how Maya is doing the staked cacao pools.
So, like, if you stake your cacao to the staked pools, you can bond that like an LP unit.
So it would be pretty much exactly the same.
I'm pretty sure staked Ruji is already tokenized.
If it's not, that's not a huge lift.
And then since it's a native asset, it's pretty much the same security assumptions
as Rune. So I don't think it would be too complicated for people to understand. And
it would just allow for a huge amount of tokens to flow into bonding. And I think that would
probably incentivize the node operators to kind of consolidate their nodes into bigger bonds to
stay competitive. And like on top of that, the vast majority of Ruggiero, if not all of the Ruggiero, is held by Web3
natives.
That's not the case for Rune.
I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but a very significant portion is
held by career traders on centralized exchanges.
And that's essentially never going to be bonded, or it's going to take a lot of work to get
that bonded.
But Ruggiero, on the other hand, I could imagine if we make it bondable, we could see 30 or 40% of the Rujira supply bonded within
like a month, two months, three months. That's an interesting point. And you guys,
there is something called RuneBond listening to this space right now. Go ahead and throw them a
follow because if that happens, they're going to be over that but uh that i think that's actually a very good point that since rogera is not listed on a sex it's all
out there floating and it could be onboarded rather rapidly and we could get a significant
percentage of it what do you think chris uh i i know that doing direct well in the discussions I've had doing direct Ruggiero bond wasn't on the
cards.
However, I think after like proposal six in amongst that there was the discussion of doing
bondable LP units, which is exactly what my chain does.
And then in order to get a greater capital efficiency, add to the bond and that type of stuff.
So I know that's, you know,
and then that way it works for every asset.
So it's not just Ruggiero,
it's going to work for any pool that's on the network
could be added to as bond.
Or maybe they'll select it, whatever.
But that's definitely been thought about.
It's just not something I've seen on the,
say on the short to medium term roadmap.
Yeah, LP bonding is, like, super cool.
It allows for greater capital efficiency.
The only hard part about that is most people want, like, for, like, gains with no impermanent loss.
And that's what we're seeing at Maya.
And that's what we're seeing at Maya.
Like the amount of people who are willing to bond an LP unit is much smaller than the amount of people willing to bond just a single asset.
And I think how we're doing it at Maya is I think it's something along the lines of half of the bonded cacao counts against versus an LP bond.
did cacao counts against versus an LP bond.
So like that's how we're trying to keep people incentivized
to keep providing a bond through LP units
versus just cacao.
But it's like an interesting thought.
And like, yeah, I could imagine
reigniting the bond wars that way,
even if we can't double the node count.
Kenton, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about this.
Anything? Oh, I'm sorry sorry chris you can go ahead no certainly um certainly think that could be could potentially be adopted i would i'd want
to see rogera kind of the app layer mature all the services come online and see how that goes
because then you want to get the market's reaction and perception of the asset as well I'd like to see that happen first. Yeah, no, for sure. It's probably too early to jump on that today,
but it's nice to have the discussion just so people can be excited about one more thing.
And there's so much to be excited about one more thing and there's so much to be excited about
kenzen do you have something your your mics unmuted
oh um no i'm happy to keep going okay all right um okay chris do you want to go on the next one there yeah i just want to move into swap efficiency and memoir improvements
and there's four things here to talk about the first one was um i don't know if you heard about
the bifrost refactor big refactor to um batch acetations that if you can think about utxo
batching where if we're going to send a whole bunch of Bitcoin out, let me just say we've got 10 transactions to send out.
This is what centralized exchanges do.
Rather than send 10 individual Bitcoin transactions,
what we can do is batch them into one transactions with multiple outputs.
That's much more efficient.
You might wait a little bit and wait until all the transactions come,
but it's much more efficient, a lot less gas.
You get it all in one hit.
It's much less block space,
and obviously it's one transaction instead of 10.
So when within Bifrost,
when observations come in at the moment,
like every observation triggers a observation message
through to 4Chain, like from Bifrost,
over this thing called the 4Chain bridge, and then 4Chain, like from Bifrost, over this thing called the 4Chain bridge,
and then 4Chain then consumes it.
So what this does is batch these observations from Bifrost
to say, okay, we've received these three Bitcoin transactions
and these Ethereum transactions.
We batch it up until 4Chain once
instead of doing individual messages,
which is much more efficient.
So I thought that was a really cool change that allows for more, well, it reduces the noise,
what's known as the gossip between the nodes, because they will have to talk and agree on
these observations. And it also allows for more observations to be observed in any one period because there's a lot less noise
so then that this particular change that's already in things like last release um or two releases
ago is what allows for two second block times because there's a lot less work being done by
the nose to to agree observe and send all that information to ThoughtChain.
So without the bash transactions that actually makes the block times longer?
No, it reduces the amount of messages.
These are the cosmos internal messages that are occurring within the network in order to agree on external observations.
So when, so the way, the good thing is like, if you, good example, if you've come home and, and you've got someone said there's a tree fell down on the street, right? You may not believe it.
If you've got the whole, everyone, like 20 people,
everyone on the street telling you a tree fell down,
you're probably going to believe it, right?
That's how the Bifrost works with its observations.
It says, well, one node says, I observed a Bitcoin transactions, and then tells 4Chain.
Then say 120, we've got 119 nodes at the moment.
Just say 119 nodes says, we saw this Bitcoin transaction
and tells 4Chain, 4Chain's going to believe it
because really 4Chain itself has no view,
understanding context of the Bitcoin blockchain
or what happened on an external chain.
So that's where it uses Bifrost to tell it what's happening
on external
chains not only from an which is really cool not only from an inbound perspective but also
on an outbound perspective so every outbound that goes out just say swapping bitcoin to ethereum
that ethereum outbound is observed and then we tell full chain about it and then full chain says
was that outbound authorized so you've got observations happening inbound and outbound.
So then this reduces the load that happens
during those observations.
So is the length, the time of one block
is determined by how long it takes the nodes
to make all these observations?
So if it's taking them less time to make the observations,
then the block time is slow, is quicker.
I don't know what sets the block time.
I know there's a lot of internal processing.
I know that it reduces the amount of, wait a sec,
it reduces the amount of, wait a sec, it reduces the amount of processing that happens.
There is a constant that says how many blocks per year.
So I think that might be the one.
And we just kind of squeeze as much as we can in each block.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because in the PR for two second block times they were they were
overriding those constants that determined um how many blocks per year and like how many blocks per
hour and stuff like that they'll overrun those constants to adjust to two second block time
okay so batched transactions will make will help make things faster um
will it also make it cheaper you know if we're just doing one uh you know just uh instead of
10 transactions going to the bitcoin network we're only sending one that's we'll be paying way less
mining fees right so or or, yes or no. Yeah.
The reserve pays less.
Yeah.
Yes.
On gas.
So is it, would it make those savings?
Is it just, uh, who, who's going to benefit from the savings with the protocol then make,
make a bit extra money.
Do we pass the savings on to the swappers?
Uh, yeah, that is a good question.
Um, well for this, there's no, there's no savings.
It's more efficient, but because they're Cosmos messages
that are happening internally within the network,
it's nothing to do with the user.
Um, whereas UTXO batch out outbounds is what that's happened previously.
outbounds is what that's happened previously.
That is where the gas cost is saved.
So this doesn't change gas because their internal messages
within the ThorChain blockchain.
So it sounds like the savings would go to ThorChain.
The protocol would make a bit extra money doing this.
Yeah, sorry.
So when we talked about gas stuff,
this doesn't affect inbound and outbound
gas costs sorry it's just internal messaging we're reducing the amount of internal messaging
required when observation's happening so therefore you could say it's an efficiency gain
it's quite a large efficiency gain internally within the network and reduces the noise which is
obviously then increasing the potential capacity for the network to do more within a smaller space
are these um gossip attestations are they related to the churn too so does this help make the churn
easier as well yeah because when you don you do a migrate, you're moving assets from one vault to another vault
with a migrate memo.
So, yeah, I'd say yes, not having all the details, because there's external movements
of assets when a turn happens.
Nice.
Very nice.
Yeah, that sounds like a thought. I mean, basically
to make it as dumb as possible, I mean, like
Thor 10 is getting leaner and meaner.
You know what I mean? We can do
more. We get more efficient. You know what I mean?
It's like we're losing some weight.
We can do more. We're making better decisions.
So I think that's one hell of an upgrade.
I mean, when you put all the things that you're talking about
so far, Chris, and lump them together, I thor team's really it's already freaking cool but it's
it's it's going up a few levels here i mean these there's the synergistic relationship
between all these things is just incredible yeah this is where you know we all talked about oh we
got to focus on the base layer make the base layer right these are the changes that are focusing on the base layer and getting the base layer good laying it down and as chad's talked about i mean this was
designed around in the 2018 came in a single chain cast not 2019 this is kind of like some of the
technology that was out at the time so now we have the opportunity um to upgrade and enhance based off today's technology
okay uh with okay this is where my i get i have to learn about the app layer man i watched your
video on the app layer and uh very helpful but still it's it's a beast um so does the app layer
because i know it's like a from the way it's been described from my memory from primag monarchy it's like a separate it's almost like a separate chain on top that has
the same blockchain as store changes does that add any computational load that's serious on
thore chains end or or did i just completely botch that explanation um probably a simpler way to think about it is if we can picture the Ethereum blockchain
and then the Ethereum blockchain
enables the deployment of a smart contract.
So then you're thinking of the two levels.
You've got the Ethereum blockchain itself
and a smart contract that lives on top of the Ethereum blockchain.
Is that making sense so far yeah that
makes sense that's very helpful so up until i don't know start of the year everything in thought
chain was only the like equivalent to only the ethereum blockchain so we're making changes to
the ethereum blockchain itself eg the thoughtg. the ThorChain blockchain.
And there was never a smart contract.
So what the V50 and QuasiWozm and all of that enables
is the ability for a smart contract to be deployed
on top of ThorChain.
And then that is it.
The interaction from the smart contract to thought chain
is the same interaction as any other wallet ui or anything like that
so that that's all we're doing think about it as this is like ethereum deploying a smart contract
for the first time it's a four chain deploying smart contracts on top of itself for the first
time instead of trying to do everything in the baseline. Got it. That makes sense to me. Okay. Did, did either one of you gentlemen have something
else for Chris on that one, or should we move to the next one?
No, no, I think you're gone. I think it's just kind of echo what you said, Patriot is
for me is especially a year is saying, you know, following Thor change is just always
like just constant, these small, constant you know it's always happening um you know sound like you know chris you mentioned since
thorify you know the focus on the base layer um there's sound like there there hasn't been updates
and tweaks in the past either like there's maybe there's a renewed focus now sure but there's always
been ongoing updates like this and it's always great and And I just can't help but feel like it's just going to pay dividends for
ThorChain in the long run.
You know, just constantly, slowly just making things better here and there.
And one day, you know, it's just like, you know, working out for six months,
you're going to like, oh man, I really, I really made a difference.
So, yeah, I echo your thoughts, Patreon.
So yeah, I echo your thoughts, Patriot.
You know, this is where, as JP would say a lot, you know, you build in the bear.
You build when it's unexciting.
You go through the churn.
And, you know, for all the things we talk about, we should do X, we should do Y, where the room price is or whatever.
I feel the best way to do is you need to build and be ready.
You need to be ready for when the market decides to come back.
And it's hard because it's not fun.
But there's not much you can do.
You can't control the market.
So by building and putting all these features in here,
all you're doing is being ready.
And the worst thing you can do is the market to come and not be ready
because you miss
your boat.
You've only got one shot in the cycle.
So that's sort of like all these little things are improving the base layer.
And it may not seem it now, but we're just trying to be in the position where we're ready
at the base layer.
It's got everything it needs.
The Redura layer is up.
And luckily, we haven't got a bit of time for that.
So when it comes, everything's in place.
That's my hope.
Totally.
All right.
Extended memos, is that next on your list?
Yeah.
So if BTC memos are set to 80 characters long,
so you can't have a memo that's more than 80 characters long
within Bitcoin through the op return field,
which poses quite a large limitation
and reason why there's all these shortened memo type of efforts.
There's a whole page dedicated to it.
There's a whole bunch of code just to shorten the memo
to try and work with Bitcoin.
It's a problem.
And then when you look at Ruggiero using the execute memo,
you can do all this fancy stuff,
but they require large and long memo lengths.
So that's obviously a problem
when you're trying to work with Bitcoin
and you're trying to work with bitcoin and you're
trying to move bitcoin and set these fancy things particularly with aggregation methods and stuff
and work with the app layer so this is enables you to extend and add multiple outputs within a
within a utx so to bitcoin to make them um much longer and it doesn't do this just for Bitcoin,
it does for all UTXOs,
so like the Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin,
all that type of stuff.
So this then enables Bitcoin
to be much longer than 80 characters,
like way longer.
And then that's going to allow you
to do more fancy things within Bitcoin
via aggregation, because you've got the pipe method that allows you to put stuff at the end of the outbound as well as to interact and do complicated stuff within the app layer.
Can you give an example like right now?
Like what we can do something right now.
Could you give an example?
give an example and just make something up in your head of what would be possible if this was
Just make something up in your head of what would be possible if this was implemented today?
implemented today at the moment you can't swap to an ethereum smart contract put um put a limit order
on it and do do a full memo you can't do a full memo at the moment within bitcoin because you'll
exceed 80 characters right so so okay so so this would be i'm sorry go ahead chris i mean sorry at best you will say swap um
full name a theorem address and then you that's that's pretty much it you can't do anything else
so does this synergize really nicely with the rogeron app layer or does it not related because
those are secured assets and a different thing yeah well but um so there's two
things you can do so one you can do like a full swap memo and then you can use the the vertical
pipe and then after that you can put your aggregation patterns to do something like
calling uni swap and passing uh instruction through to uniswap so you could use
bitcoin in an aggregation pattern because you've got a very you can use a very long memo so that's
really cool just base layer swapping through aggregation like you know everyone does it
through ethereum within within the regura context you can use the execute memo, which is just going to be like X.
Then you can add all these parameters.
Well, you add the smart contract address and then the parameters after that to call a smart contract with parameters from a native L1 Bitcoin transaction.
Because you've got the space to add all that information, it makes it possible.
you've got the space to add all that information it makes it possible so you could do like i don't
know call the rudera trade contract to add from l1 bitcoin to um to do a limit order within their
order book but with a short memo you couldn't do that yeah i'm loving this space this space is like
a nerd's wet dream you guys you gotta share the space right now get the nerds in here
or nerd now i love this shit it's awesome uh kenton 13 heavens did you have anything you
want to add on that uh yeah maybe just to help the the newbies out so the reason why memos are
important here like when you go to your favorite wallet their front end to go trade on thor chain
really what all that wallet is doing is writing the memo for you.
You can technically write the memo yourself
and create the transaction yourself
and avoid using an interface and trade on ThorChain.
The wallets and the websites are writing that memo for you,
making it dummy proof, so you don't screw it up.
But that's how ThorChain works. That's how everything,
all the trades, everything is done is through memos when you send your crypto into ThorChain.
And then the nodes read the memo in that token you just sent in. And then that's the instructions
to tell the nodes what to do. You send in Bitcoin. Oh, what do you want to buy with it? Oh, is it
Ethereum? Is it Ripple? Okay. and then that's uh that's how thor chain
works yeah and if there's anyone listening to this recording um and you're curious about that
you can dm me patriot sounds at patriot sounds all one word um just dm me and i will hook you
up with the documentation that explains that you have to know what you're doing though this isn't
for beginners but um the instructions are there so if you want to learn how to do this and just swap on ThorChain natively or do something advanced, you can do that.
Oh, yeah.
Please don't do this on your own unless if you're listening to this, you're doing it wrong.
You say Kenton told me I could do it and then you go lose your money.
Like that is on you.
That is not on me.
I 100% do not recommend anyone to do this on their own.
Do not write your own memos go use an interface if you write your own memos that is 100 on you buyer
beware as it's just just explaining just how it works and what's possible yep 100 yeah you have
to be an advanced user to be able to use mechanics uh go ahead chris. Yeah. I'm just getting in the weeds here a bit. Just for
anyone that doesn't know, I read the code, I write the technical documentation, I update
the memo documentation. So that's why I know about this type of stuff. And then when I see
this, I kind of like my brain then thinks about what's possible when this particular 80 memo restriction gets removed because I know like how all the other memos work.
Nice.
So this was a big one, right?
Like this is, this is a, isn't this update like kind of one of like the bigger deals?
Like it should open a door for a lot more stuff to happen on thorechain
oh as i said it's l it's good for l1 and it's good for the apple layer
but you know this this issue has been around since the start of thorechain right like this is a bdc
limitation uh yeah been around for a while um and this particular AD Memo, AD character in the Memo
has been a restriction for Torchain since the start.
And now it's gone.
So I find it very cool.
And it's done for all the UTXOs.
And forgive me, like Monero is a UTXO, right?
And wasn't one of the issues with trying to get Monero,
a Monero pool on thor chain was the memo size
was too small or am i it's very small and so this would fix it but mero isn't it a utxl right
possibly there might be some other issues with monero outside of that um but if this could be
applied to monero uh then obviously that that that particular restriction wouldn't wouldn't
be an issue anymore i'm i'm sure there's lots of difficulties with it but i i i'm one i'm pretty
sure it's stuck in my brain that the memo length was one of them.
So maybe we're, I don't know if Monero pole ever happened.
It might just be technically impossible,
but at least we're one step closer.
We're not getting further away, we're getting closer.
So that'd be cool if that does help.
Cool. closer so that'd be cool if some that does help cool should we go the next one sure yep
the next one was talked about a little bit in the last one which was limit orders uh so limit
orders got renamed to advanced swap queue and in simple terms, they're limit orders.
So they give me a price or swap when the price reaches a certain point, but they're against
the pool.
So they're not really like limit orders in a market or in an order book.
They're really just against the pool.
When the pool price or really the pool ratio hits a certain amount, then swap this for me.
So, you know, sell Bitcoin at a certain price as an example.
I've got a video on this if you wanted to get more details.
I wanted to go into, let this into the last space, Kenton.
I want you to go into a bit more detail on why trade assets, secured assets, and l1 assets like the type of of swap doesn't matter when when
one swaps occur and two when these limit orders go through but first i just want to understand
if you had any more questions around that before i get into the detail. Yeah, just before, well, I just want to clarify, excuse me, excuse me, guys.
You said advanced swap queue.
These are the same thing as limit swaps
that Chad was talking about, right?
This is the same feature?
Yeah, exactly the same feature.
Okay, okay, great.
So you're saying in GitLab and the code and everything is preferred
it's being referred to as an advanced swap not a limit swap or advanced swap queue is how it's
technically being uh uh titled in all the in all the the documents so the the limit swap is just
slang it is now because like,
if you don't like a limit order or stuff like that,
I think that's more order book type of terminology,
whereas this is really only against the pool.
So then it was like, oh, it's an advanced swap.
I think the queue part, which I'll talk about in effect,
is because they copied the swap queue,
it changed some of the logic just in case they need to revert back to the old swap queue logic.
And then maybe you're going to address this because I asked Chad,
and afterwards I was even still thinking about it.
I'm like, I still don't understand.
Because I asked somebody sends in know limit order at x price
like where does that bitcoin actually sit is it uh you know is it a trade asset a secured asset is
it is it outside the pool like like like how is it accounted for and he he answered me but
i still don't understand his answer maybe is that what you're getting to were you going to answer
that for me or explain that further so i'm so i'm still confused where that the bitcoin sitting waiting to have that order filled
how is it being held in door chain like what kind of asset is it question um let me let's do let's
do um instant swaps let's talk about instant swaps as in like we just discard streaming swaps for
the minute and then we can talk through an ethereum so a bitcoin to ethereum transaction
the reason if we just get rid of streaming swaps it's just going to make the explanation a bit
simpler go ahead yeah for sure so when so bitcoin comes in it gets observed and fortune gets told told about i'm gonna
swap one bitcoin for 38 i think was the example forgive my maths um so the bitcoin comes in it
goes to the asgard vault and it sits there it gets observed like i said observed fortune gets told
about it it goes through what's known as a handler and a swap message is created and goes through the swap queue.
The swap is not executed at this point.
Basically, it's just a message with all the swap details like the memo and the in and out requested asset and all of that.
It just sits there in a queue.
And this happens for secured assets, trade assets, L1 assets, right?
And this happens for secured assets, trade assets, L1 assets.
They're all, you could say, recognized, all the information is taken out of it, put into a swap message, and then sent to the queue.
At the end of the block, there's literally a function called nBlock.
The swap queue is then sorted into basically the most, what's more beneficial for the network,
what produces the most fees,
a simple way of saying it.
And then they're executed sequentially.
So from that point of view,
when the swap's executing,
they're both moving across the pool.
From there, the Bitcoin that's held
from within the Asgard vault, obviously it's known about, that is then swapped across the pool and the outbound asset is then sent out.
But really all the swaps are done at the end of the block.
So any assets is sort of like in a pending point of view.
They're not in the pool.
They haven't been swapped.
They're kind of like awaiting to be swapped.
They're not counted the pool they haven't been swapped they're kind of like awaiting to be swapped they're not counted to tvl um they're not they're not um any type of asset they're just kind of like we
have it we have logically accounted for it it's pending waiting to be swapped that all the swaps
get ordered occur at the end of the block and then the outbound assets are are out. So everything's in the Asgard essentially? Correct. Okay, there you go.
So they're not anymore. So let's just say these limit swaps are really popular and you know,
you've got millions of dollars of Bitcoin sitting in this waiting room or this queue, this pending status, they're just as secure
as the Bitcoin in the pool or Bitcoin trade assets, secured assets. It's all equally secure.
They're not any more or less insecure than anything else because it's all in the same vault same bitcoin address right
i hear it yeah it's a good question so pooled trade and secured assets they're all riled up rolled up in what's known as vaulted liquidity all right or vault liquidity i think is on the
incentive pendulum docs now they're secured they they they form a part of the calculation of the um of the of the revenue
split and they also go towards the tvl cap calculation so that so whatever's a type of asset
is already accounted for generally at the moment limit orders aside when swap comes in there it's a transient asset it's only that
it's only pending for the life of the block so it's in get swapped at the end of the block and
it's out so therefore it doesn't like really like live in the network in any way limit orders i would
assume would be treated the same they're like a transient deal people people um it's kind of like
you know like the order they put in their orders, so therefore their
asset is in the network, but it's not attributed to anywhere.
It's not collateralized in the same way a secured asset needs to be collateralized because
you've got a wrapped version.
It's not secured in the pool because it doesn't live in the pool, because if it lives in the
pool, it would be subject to a permanent loss. It's just kind of like sitting there waiting to be swapped and that would go
across a couple of swaps obviously potentially a couple of blocks or it could be within block
depends you know on the ratio of the pool so whether that changes or not i'm not sure but
from my point of view it's a it would be treated like a um an asset waiting to be swapped and it kind
of like it's in this quote-unquote pending state as you called it now would it and it should it
should contribute to the total tvl of the network right that's interesting um because it's not an you can't use the asset in any way
like i guess it depends on the definition um because if you did that then like i said you've
got an asset you can't really use any other way you can't use it within trading you can't use it
with the secure it's not doesn't form part of the pool it's like a uh a separate form of asset it would have to be it's not even a type of asset because it's it has you
can't use it all you can do is just cancel the limit order at that time well i'm thinking about
this a different way so like let's pretend we had our it was the tvl's at this uh the hard cap
and um you know we can't grow the pools.
We can't take depositing more assets.
If this, these limit swaps are living outside the TVL,
we could have millions of dollars of limit swaps come in
and go over the hard cap.
Or no, they wouldn't, they would be subject to the hard cap.
They wouldn't be able to come in and enter the network
because Bitcoin is sitting there,
like the nodes can steal it, right?
It's in sitting in door chain.
That's why I'm thinking about the TVL.
It's a good question.
I don't know the answer to it.
I think will limit orders contribute to the TVL cap calculation.
I haven't seen anything to say it will, but I could be wrong.
The feature hasn't been merged, hasn't been completed.
So that is a good question to ask.
I'll find out for you. That was a good question to ask. I'll find out for you.
That was a good question, Kenton.
Thanks.
I have a good question every now and then.
Frequently, brother.
Well, thank you, Chris, for answering all our good and bad questions.
So did you want to add,
you said, let's just talk about a regular order,
instant order.
Did you want to add streaming swaps into this limit order?
I'm reading your notes here,
streaming swap support to advanced swap queue.
So how does streaming swaps play into this now?
Yeah, so if we go back to our swap queue so how does how does streaming swaps play into this now yeah so i if we go back to our swap queue if we think about the swap queue ordering which i do explain in a in one of my videos on this is all the l ones secured assets and trade
assets they're all grouped together and and executed at the end of the block. And they all go across the same pool.
So from that point of view, the type of asset doesn't matter because they're all moving the pool.
The only difference is the type of asset it is when it comes in, the type of asset it leaves, and the fee.
Because there's a different MAMIA for each asset type, like eight bits for L1 and five bits for trade and secured.
So they're all grouped together essentially, all sorted and executed at the same time.
And then limit orders would be done after all the other swapping is done.
So where streaming swaps comes into it is...
Well, actually I'll go through limit orders.
So limit orders then would, or advanced swaps, so we'll call actually i'll go through limit order so limit orders then would
or advanced swaps so we'll call it would go along and say hey look can i achieve this swap through
some basic maths so if you're getting regardless of fees or anything like that if i just look at
the the pure ratio of the pool could i achieve this swap if i can't it just moves on if i can
it'll go through simulate the swap with the fees.
And if it can do that, it'll conduct the swap.
But limit orders will always be done after the last part.
And that's pretty cool.
Because you've then moved the pool,
then there's obviously the option that, hey,
there could be a streaming swap that could be done because this limit order now has moved the pool after all the swaps done.
So then you can start iterating through and then, you know, doing more of the streaming swaps and more sub swaps within the same block instead of doing them in a subsequent block, waiting for the arb and doing a subsequent block.
And then that's how the rapid swaps would occur,
with the addition of limit orders or advanced swaps.
Is that making sense?
Yeah, I was just going to say, aren't you
describing rapid swaps?
Basically, what you're saying is, if I understand you right,
let's say there's a streaming swap to sell 1 million of Bitcoin to buy a million dollars worth of Ethereum.
And then somebody else sends in a streaming swap to sell a million dollars of Ethereum to buy 1 million of Bitcoin.
They're both streaming swaps.
Instead of waiting five hours for them to go through, blockchain will see the two,
realize that they can cancel each other out
and settle that swap instantly
instead of waiting for each swap
to go through separately over the course of five hours.
Did I explain that right?
Yes.
Obviously, limit order would cancel out a streaming swap
or vice versa.
But what's cool is that it doesn't matter the type of asset that's being swapped.
As in, it could be a L1 cancels off a trade swap, which is obviously streaming.
Or a secured asset is cancelling off the trade asset or vice versa.
Because I'm not sure that was clear.
So because everything is grouped together in the swap queue,
therefore, essentially, this limit order, rapid order swap stuff
would apply to all asset types, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does.
Cool.
So by including secured assets that you're basically that's
including app layer so any orders on on rogera is being read by the base layer too
um so if somebody sends in a base layer l1 trade uh say they're on asgard x single place no no bitcoin trade uh in in theory that could be
settled through regira without the person asgard x having any idea they're just getting their
you know ethereum back in their wallet they have no idea what's happening to thor chain um
is that is that right today does that make sense i think so what yeah one they're not
going to know and then two obviously it's going to work with it just it's going to work within
the app layer because it works with secured assets obviously for things like trade order
books that doesn't apply because the pool's not involved i guess the principle would be at any time if the base layer liquidity pool is involved then this particular thing can
apply cool patriot well the thing i'm thinking about is if say someone puts a big swap in because
right now we have a tracker right that gives an estimated time of like how many minutes your swap is going to be like let's just say there's there's one huge bitcoin to each swap
right so the tracker is going to give you time but what's kind of cool about this if i'm
understanding correctly is that we we won't we will um we can under promise and over deliver
right because if someone comes in with a streaming swap in the opposite direction,
like it's safe, it was meant to go in 30 minutes, then it would,
it would execute much faster and the, and the,
and the customer would get their assets much faster.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes, but I would say there are, there are limits and caveats to it.
Okay.
Obviously you would, you would need, if you think of like Uniswap V3, I would say there are limits and caveats to it. Okay.
Obviously you would need, if you think of like Uniswap V3,
when you target your liquidity against a certain point
in the XYK curve, all right?
If that all makes sense.
With obviously the limit orders
and the streaming swaps being able to match,
that's gonna happen at a certain price point. Now, if the price has moved out or there's not limit orders around the price as a
streaming swap, obviously that match can't occur. So it's kind of like you require liquidity to be
pushing on both sides for that to happen. If there's a mismatch or liquidity is only on one
side because the other side dies out, then obviously you just revert back to the normal way things are done now.
Okay, I got you.
That makes sense.
There's a lot to think about, but I understand.
I don't have the list in front of me.
Was there another topic or was that like the last big one?
No, we've got a few more.
Let's keep going.
We're on the bullet point three now chris right yeah it's it's a lot to talk about no it's good man i love it no no keep going we
do marathons here yeah yeah so what's what's really called a feature to change and delete swaps.
So update and delete either streaming swaps or limit orders in mid, in flight, essentially.
So that supports the previous feature we talked about.
If you've got a limit order, you want to update the limit amount or the amount you want to receive, you can do that.
update the limit amount or the amount you want to receive,
you can do that.
Or if you've got a streaming swap or a limit order in place
and you want to cancel that, you can via a new memo.
And then that would allow you to, like I said,
cancel anything, any limit order or streaming swap in flight.
Would that make the...
Maybe it's a dumb question, but that wouldn't affect...
Wait, how would this work?
Does that change the swap queue at all?
Like, the outbound time?
If I have a streaming swap, I don't know, millions of dollars, stop it halfway,
obviously no more of the exogenous assets is going to be swapped,
but does that get sent out quicker or does that not change? I don't know i don't know i'm like my brain's kind of struggling with
this one does that make sense i'm asking that just it just halts it it just holds it you say say 50
through 50 would be you you obviously be holding the 50 well the 50 would be sent out because with
streaming swap it holds all the asset until it's done right right and then you just get returned the other 50 percent so it's basically like just
saying cancel it and give me the difference okay okay that makes sense well that's actually a
really nice upgrade for for ui and for customers experience i think that's i think that's great
awesome 14 is getting better and better, guys.
Those three combined had a lot of optionality just around the swapping.
The swapping functionality, the swapping ability, the swapping UX,
which is, you know, everyone's been talking about
we need to increase swapping, L1 swapping.
That's where full change bread and butter is.
So that's why I really like these type of changes
because that's exactly what people are saying
should be improved and that's what's happening.
Yeah, I think limit swaps and rapid swaps
are gonna be huge.
Like I think it's gonna be just as good
as not better than streaming swaps.
And yeah, do you have an idea?
I don't know if you have any better idea, but Chad mentioned like the next few months, you know, before the end of the year type thing,
when they should be done. I don't know if you have any more insight on that when they should be ready.
I can say limit orders or sorry, fast swaps and memorless transactions.
They're coded.
They're done.
There are video walkthroughs from Chad, like before he had his, he went away.
So from my point of view, they just need to be, they're done.
They just need to be rebased, rechecked, retested, and they're in like the
heavy lifting is done.
So what if, maybe you can help.
If it's been in there for a while,
like what's, why hasn't heavy lifting been done?
Like what is, like in my mind,
the heavy lifting is writing the code and testing it,
making sure there's no vulnerabilities,
you know, trying, doing your white hat hacking, try to break it, make sure it's okay.
Like after that, what's, what else is there to do?
Or is that is what is left to do? And I'm misunderstanding.
It could be said that at the time there was a disagreement on priorities.
Okay. it could be said that at the time there was a disagreement on priorities okay okay well i think now i think we've got to the point now where this is this is something that we definitely want to do so um so would it be fair to say what did
chad say i can't remember kenton but like a few like months just months away and it could be on it could be live that's what i thought yeah
i think these are some of these things like the basketball kudos is for the next release like 3.8
slated for the 3.8 oh wow fully activated but um like the the all the renaming and stuff that happened in 3.7. And then this will go in 3.8.
That's badass.
I'm excited, you guys.
This is awesome.
I haven't seen Memelisk connections slated for release yet.
Actually, it might be a signed release,
but it could go 3.9, 3.10, something like that.
So the next one or two releases, I would expect.
I do have a question for you, Chris.
On the advanced swap queue,
how are the front ends and wallets going to do this?
Because if you, like right now and you place a swap,
it's always a market order, right?
But we're basically introducing the ability
to place a limit order.
So the interfaces, they're to have to update their UIs to be able
to enter your limit orders, right?
Yeah, correct.
I don't know how they're going to do it, but that's the UI problem.
Yeah, well, and that's kind of what I'm thinking, is that I assume the interfaces that are close to ThorChain will probably adopt it right away.
But the ones like TrustWire or Ledger might be slow to adopt.
I'm just trying to wonder, or maybe everyone will be slow to adopt, maybe because it's a real, it's kind of a pain to
code out. I don't know if you have any insight there, how long it might take for the interfaces to start, you know, once it's live on Doorchain, do you have any idea how long it might
take the front ends to implement it and start offering it to the users?
users?
I'm not sure.
I think it would happen quick because for the majority of the interfaces, the swapping
is where the revenue comes from.
And because this is essentially swap, like a swap, then there's good revenue potential
for the UIs on it.
So I would be thinking pretty soon.
I reckon ThorSwap's probably got something um drawn up
by now on them so i would see it's happening quick but it could be like tcy where you know
first couple is up quickly and then the rest of them are coming in trips and drabs
yeah to be honest i'm not sure but that would be my guess
but you're right like i i would think they would be my guess. But you're right.
I would think they would be all the wallets
who would want to get on top of this
because it's a pretty damn cool feature to offer your users.
So yeah, one more way for us,
all this talk about ThorChain getting edged out
on the quotes by other DEXs.
If the platform is doing,
if a user is entering a limit order,
then by default, ThorChain should be the only one seeing it.
Or is, I guess 13Headman's, you're up here.
Is Maya, does Maya, are you guys forking this in implementing advanced swap queue as well?
So I guess if a user does enter a limit order,
they'll see both Maya and ThorChain pop up.
I don't know if you're still listening,
if you're hearing my question.
No, yeah, I'm still here.
Pretty much all of the features that
hit ThorChain will go on to Maya eventually
once they're proven out and sometimes vice versa,
but I do think ThorChain will probably beat us to this one.
Cool.
So because it's only
on ThorChain, this type, like,
okay,
can you, so if you had a streaming swap from an asset from ThorChain, this type... Okay, so if you had a streaming swap
from an asset from ThorChain...
Okay, no.
If it was from ThorChain to Maya, you could cancel it,
but obviously if it was Maya to ThorChain, you could not.
I think that's right, right, Chris?
It doesn't matter the
end asset so long as it starts with ThorChain,
right?
Sorry, say that again again a streaming swap from
an asset on thor chain to maya protocol you can cancel that right you could cancel midway because
the starting point is thor chain is my understanding correct like with the x aggregation yeah okay
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, with the feature you could.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm confused.
Wait a second.
Can you do a streaming swap from a Thor chain pool to a Maya pool?
Oh, I thought it was just...
Eventually I believe so.
Oh, I thought you could.
Because how it'll probably end up working is...
Well, it depends on how they implement it,
but I imagine it'll swap to Rune
or whatever the connected asset is,
and then it would just execute it on Maya.
Because both are quite low gas fee environments,
so you can kind of organize it however you want it.
Like you could do the whole swap to the connected assets
and then issue the streaming swap on Maya,
but since both have quite low gas fees, it would cost more.
But you could also do every sub swap as its own swap,
although I don't imagine that would be very efficient.
So it depends on how it gets implemented.
I didn't mean to open a can of worms there um but uh okay that makes sense
yeah so i understand it is not done at the moment but i do recall talking to someone
from 13 heavens and hearing that it was in the works. So maybe 13 Heavens can give more information
and maybe an ETA?
Right now, no ETA,
just because there's so much going on.
It's hard to say,
but I do know that all Thor chain integration
is pretty high on the priority queue.
If I have to guess,
it's not impossible to see it by the end of the year,
but it's not very's not impossible to see it by the end of the year but
it's not very safe to quote that
awesome cool um should we keep going um eddsa this is this is a big one eddsa well that i keep this pretty quick um but essentially you have a different signing algorithm that you know bitcoin and everything started off with um elliptical curve digital
signing algorithm and then this is edwards um edwards curve digital signing algorithm essentially
so this then just enables solana cadano and other other chains that support EDDSA to be added to ThorChain.
What's important is that the vaults, well, this was tried previously last year in StageNet,
but there was an issue where the vaults wouldn't sign the EDDSA transaction to move funds, I think, during the churn.
transaction to move funds i think during the churn so that's why it's taken so long
So that's why it's taken so long.
this time it's been merged and then as i said the vaults need to change to move
edd say assets from one vault to the other vault during the churn and that's how you'll know it'll
be as successful so it's not just as easy as oh we're doing this type of stuff it it it has to be implemented into the asgard vault and it has to be um implemented into
forechain to produce the relevant um addresses for the inbound addresses and to ensure that
everything's working properly and you could say quite a low level within the asset management
for it to be successful and this is being has been worked on for a solid year now, right?
And do you have any insight?
Is it just been technically difficult,
like it requires a lot of code?
Or every time they think they have it figured out,
now a bug creeps up and they got to figure it,
you know, kind of like whack-a-mole, they always got to fix something do you have any insight on like why is it taking
so long why is this so difficult i know it's difficult i know it probably hasn't got 100
percent of the priority that it probably should have had previously and like i, I know it was tried last year and failed because assets essentially got stuck in an old vault.
So, which is obviously, you know, again, you never want that to happen.
So it's kind of like a combination of everything.
And now obviously they think they've fixed that issue and then it'll come out. So it's definitely not an easy one because you're having to change all the
stuff with the Asgard vault, the digital signing stuff,
ensure you've got control over the funds when they migrate,
as well as changing the aspects for the inbound,
Bifrost, all that type of stuff.
Like it is a big change.
And ThorChain is constantly getting uh flack
for taking so long as solana and like like i wanted to guys i'm frustrated it's taking this
long as well but i think in my mind the part of us taking it so long is it just it goes to show how
how difficult thor chain is like like the the problem that it's solving, like the cross chain swaps and a decentralized manner.
And this is why, um, like there's really no one else doing it. You know,
Maya is doing it. Yes, but it's still basically a fork of Thor chain,
you know, with their own flavor. Um, and you know,
chain flip is doing it, but it's, you know,
they're still limited to a few assets.
There's just not a lot of players out there doing this because it's really hard.
And we have to get it right.
Could you imagine we have this Alana pool launch and say there's a few million bucks.
And then, like you said, we go to the churn and that vault is lost forever.
We lose a few million dollars.
Like, you know, you talk about bad marketing or, you know, so it's, yeah, it's sensitive.
We got to get right the first time, you know, we can't afford.
Or maybe worse, it introduces the bug and you can't churn the entire vault.
Sorry, say that again.
It introduces a bug and then the entire vault won't churn
and then because because the validators are outside of the validator set you can't you
can't regain control over the old vault yeah and those assets are lost forever that's not you can
do yeah does that feel like a showstopper to you yeah it does and hey guys that's why you
know everyone wants things to fast on torsia and things have never shipped faster now that we have
ruggiero now our devs are just solely focused on base protocol stuff like the speed of which
chains and changes are happening but with you know understand as kenton perfectly stated this is
extremely complicated stuff.
Layer one to layer one is no joke.
There's hundreds of thousands of lines of code
between, you know, churns and vaults and swap logic
and just everything, everything.
This is not little kids shit.
You know what I mean?
This is big boy shit.
So I think, and I, go ahead.
Oh, no, i'm interrupting you
well that was basically it you know it's just understand like
there there are everyone wants things to ship fast but there are enormous
ramifications if we get something wrong um and it's a testament to our developers
um for actually getting so many things right you know i mean like everyone can point to a mistake we've made and we've made numerous cause this shit's so complicated, but how many
things did we get right? Innumerable things, right? Like 99.9% accuracy, but that 0.01%
will get you every time you have to be as you have to get the nail on the head, you know?
So I think that's just a perspective. I try to push occasionally just to remind people
just how serious and how difficult this stuff is. take it for granted i feel like like thor chain
runs like butter these days in my opinion but you know it's so easy to introduce something that can
just really wreck the whole ship i actually wanted to take advantage of having 13 heavens up here with
us um just so you guys know 13 heavens there he's um they're like nine realms
on my protocol um but i'm curious because you guys have uh uh integrated other blockchains on
maya that the thorn chain does not so you guys do have experience bringing on new uh new blockchains
on the maya um have you done any work on edDSA yourself? Have you been collaborating with anybody on ThorChain to help get it on ThorChain so that you guys can have it on Maya?
Do you have any insight or involvement there?
I do think a little bit of work has been done in that regard.
But as far as I understand it, the reason why ADA hasn't shipped is we're actually waiting for the audits and everything to come back for the Solana implementation.
And then we're going to be using some of that code base. So I do think third chain is doing the bulk of that lift right now.
But because we're friends, like we've been sharing, it's been collaborative because you're sharing the code with each other.
Yeah, of course. The beauty between the two is we're kind of sharing the code with each other. Of course.
The beauty between the two is we're kind of helping each other with each other's homework.
Yeah.
Chris, do you have any more you want to add?
I just really hope it's successful during testing. And again, that should be, isn't, is it 3.8, the next update coming out that there's some
new code for that?
Is it 3.9?
Like it's soon, like it's imminent that.
3.8, next release.
Next release.
It's a fingers crossed everybody.
IBC deposits.
This is really cool.
We were around when IBC was being discussed.
You guys like, and it was a bit controversial.
Oh, yes.
I remember that very well.
Chad B. was never, never liked the idea.
Then like, daddy's gone.
So like, okay, now we can do this.
So yeah, I'm curious.
So this adds, this essentially, okay, you have like a Bitcoin client and that Bitcoin
client allows blockchain to essentially add an inbound Bitcoin address.
We'll follow on that. So what the IBC will allow is essentially an IBC Cosmos hub address to be
added for ThorChain that then allows the infrastructure for IBC to be enabled within ThorChain,
then that will allow any IBC-enabled asset
to come into ThorChain.
I'm not going to say it's going to be accepted
and all those things around IBC still exist
with regards to how do we securitize assets
that are not natively part of ThorChain.
However, that allows for all of the groundwork to be done
for IBC to occur within ThorChain.
Obviously, that's probably not going to be a baseline thing,
but that could be extremely important for Rudura
when it wants to interact with other Cosmos, Cosmos Hub applications or chains.
So do you remember, I forget to be honest,
like what were the reasons against it?
I thought originally it was just, it was nothing like,
I don't think there was any security risk or anything.
It was just like, it just wasn't necessary type thing.
Like it's not going to really add any more value. So why spend the time on doing it? Or was
there a technical concern like this could introduce a new attack vector or vulnerability
or something like that?
I think technically we weren't really up to date with Cosmos SDK, but we are now. Security
wise, it's like if you take an IBC asset
and you swap it for Bitcoin,
now you hold this IBC asset.
Like it has no real value.
You know, you really, like we haven't got a pool for it.
It's not going to earn value.
This is how I see it.
So now you've got, say, Osmosis as an example,
and you've sent out Bitcoin.
Is the protocol still the same?
Like, has it just lost Bitcoin or what's it going to do with this Osmosis asset now?
Like, it's not, how do you deal with that?
Also, if you're sending out assets, you're sending out, say, secured assets, secured BDC out via Cosmos.
your secured BDC out via Cosmos.
You're still securitizing that asset,
but it's not earning you any revenue.
So it comes down to security.
There's no security for the inbound assets.
I guess you're putting that up
and then you don't want to be securitizing assets that are left.
That's how I would see it i'm sure
there's more to it than that but there are questions that come up particularly when you're
opening it up to all the assets within cosmos connecting to the thought chain you're like well
how's that specifically going to work
sorry i'm trying to wrap my head around it yeah go ahead patriot well i was gonna actually just
interject something different here um guys uh you know if anyone has any questions just please put
them in the in the 14 telegram um we're trying to make comets work on 14 um we had with the cope
really break down intellectually what's going on you know i'm one eighth native american i burned
a little sage before the you know the before space started, trying to get a little spiritualism involved.
I don't think Comet's working.
So I don't know.
I don't understand.
We can't figure out why Comet's don't work on X-Spaces.
So if anyone has any questions, just put them in the Thor chain telegram.
And I will keep an eye on that if anyone has any questions.
Or, of course, you can request and come up.
I'm a little buggy, but yeah.
Are you related to elizabeth warren uh i'm a little bit more native american than her buddy okay one eighth i'm a great grandfather 100 pottawatomie so i've got that spiritualism in me
you know i'm saying i've got i've got the i'm tribal you guys know i'm saying so it's serious
okay it's real it's not like uh
one what was it 124 anyway we're getting sidetracked yes i'm more than her 100 percent
yeah chris so the the ibc um so i'm trying to wrap my head around is it basically like
somebody sends a bitcoin and they're going to, they, it's just sits there and like,
it's not generating any revenue. So it's just kind of like a dead asset. And so then where does
the security come from to protect it? You know, why, why should we support a dead asset?
Did I summarize that? Well, is that right? That they kind of, what you're trying to get at?
that well is that right that they kind of what you're trying to get at i think like the issue
i was seeing is if we get an ibc asset just say you want to swap some ibc asset um for bitcoin
that ibc asset comes into thaw chain bitcoin leaves the network i'm like that just doesn't
feel right because now we've got an IBC asset that is secured
somewhere else, I assume, just that's, I don't know, IBC backed Bitcoin or something.
And then the pool's reduced.
Like if you've got Ethereum to Bitcoin, you're adding Ethereum and you're sending out Bitcoin.
So in a way, it's kind of like a net neutral with value.
Obviously, you're taking away fees, but within IBC, you kind of like a net neutral with value. Obviously, you're taking away fees.
But within IBC, you're not having a net neutral because there's no input into the pool.
Because if you don't have a pool that supports that asset, like I said, you just basically there's an exit only.
Okay, gotcha.
Sorry.
In my mind, I was thinking like somebody deposits Bitcoin and gets an IBC token, like a wrap token, and then goes to IBC somewhere, blah, blah, sorry. I, in my mind, I was thinking like somebody deposits Bitcoin and gets an IBC token, like
a RAP token, and then goes, this is IBC somewhere, blah, blah, blah.
But that, which is happening, but that's coming.
You're saying that RAP's token is coming into the pool, which is not, which I get it.
Yeah, well, there's that.
And then there's, if we're to do secured assets, send something out.
We're holding the security, but the asset's being utilized somewhere else.
So it's like, well, how does that end up in the forechain?
Because then obviously that adds to the TVL cap.
You don't want all these orphaned, you know, collateralized assets that you're holding the collateral for that's affecting TVL cap
when it's not generating any revenue.
Okay. that you're you're holding the collateral for that's affecting your tvl cap when it's not generating any revenue okay okay so then why are we doing this well i i see benefits for it uh no will be in the next one and then it i don't know how it's going to fully work i think it'd
be great to talk to some radura people but if if you take this a step further, this is more for the app layer.
But the app layer talks to native Bitcoin, right?
The Cosmos ecosystem doesn't have the ability to get to native assets.
So what I was sort of seeing when Redura would come out is through an IBC connection, again, we're just laying the groundwork.
The specifics will come later.
It's going to conceptually allow the Cosmos IBC ecosystem to connect to native Bitcoin via the Redura layer, if that makes sense.
Because Redura is obviously going to be able to work
with these other IBC smart contracts
and stuff like that and other chains.
And then via that process,
you can connect them to ThorChain's L1 pools.
Hmm, okay.
Something for the future.
But if you think about that for a sec the the possibilities
of app layer are far beyond just the app layer they extend into the um into the cosmos space
okay um go ahead kenton i was like yeah that part's cool um i'm trying to wrap my head around
an ibc bitcoin ending up in the bitcoin pool um that does not sound cool
like this this enables the process to be done but obviously the exact details and how this
gets utilized what
assets will get supported in udd is yet to come so it's a white listing process essentially like
or am i wrong about that i would think so um like you can't just send any asset into thought chain
at the moment like there needs to be stuff that built in for it but now you could potentially
like there needs to be stuff that built in for it but now you could potentially uh like like adam
on gaia that's that comes into the floor chain via bifrost potentially you could do the same thing
via ibc instead of going through bifrost because if it's you know ibc enable that asset
you know we're gonna the next space i think we might have pragmatic monkey so that might be a
good thing we can run by him kenton just to clarify that little maybe he would know the
answer to that question you know the exact type of ibc assets that are going to be ending up where
or whatever yeah for sure they write that down i know this is something for the future like with
regards to the app light it's like, let's get everything built first,
get it running first,
get everything sorted and scaled up
within ThoughtShare in context.
And then IBC comes after that step.
But it's good to see that coming.
Okay, I got it
was there anything more on that or should we move on to the next one
no we can move on to Noble
this might tie into
direct IVC deposit
and Noble is a
native circle
issued
USDC on a a cosmos stable chain so you can think of it like you can think of it
like the usdt for um for cosmos and it allows usdc and and stable coins to move across ibc
blockchains using circles um cross chainchain transport protocol, CCTP.
You can Google that if you want.
Then this would become like a preferred collateral asset within the Cosmos space for all things
to do with, this is how I understand it, all things to do with Cosmos DeFi applications,
e.g. Rojura.
So this, you would potentially want to be dealing with this noble.usdc
instead of saying potentially a pool.usdc for things
that happen within AppLayer.
It's well-established within the Cosmos space.
And like I said, it goes across.
It enables the transfer of USDC across IBC chains
in a seamless manner.
Okay.
I don't really have anything to add to that.
Do you, Kenton?
No, I don't.
To be honest, I don't understand.
Yeah, sorry, Chris.
Kind of like you're enabling a native,
think of it like a native USDC stablecoin into ThorChain that can then be utilized within the DeFi app layer on ThorChain.
And that particular stablecoin is used within the Cosmos ecosystem as well. So you're then able to
use that to within your app layer for like, you know, take out a
line, you can get Noble and then utilize that within the Cosmos space, as well as potentially
adding another stable coin to the Torque calculation that's coming from another chain.
Okay. So like, like I have a circle account, so I can withdraw USDC onto Ethereum or Avalanche.
I can also withdraw it onto Cosmos, and that's called Noble USDC.
The Cosmos version of USDC is Noble.
Is that right?
You'd have to check the chain but my research kind of saying is that it is a fully circle backed
usdc stable coin um but whether they have an equivalent on on gear or not i'm not sure
okay i hope i'm right the way i explained it and then i get it then yeah it makes sense um
okay patriot
no i i don't really have much to add to that one um it's my understanding is a little superficial
as yours but uh i mean it makes sense but you know i don't really have anything i can add
to make anything the conversation
more meaningful all right um last but not least
secured assets um i read this and i was like i don't understand it because why would you have
liquidity pooling for secured assets?
You don't want to fragment liquidity in any way.
You don't want to have a Bitcoin pool at the base layer and also at the secured layer
because obviously liquidity is going to be in two spots.
That to me just didn't make any sense.
So I'm like, well, how does a secured layer Bitcoin pool work? And it's really cool.
So because there's going to be a requirement for trading at the secured asset layer,
there needs to be a Bitcoin one, but it's going to be a virtualized Bitcoin pool where the actual liquidity pool is going to be within the L1 Bitcoin pool. So you mint your L1 Bitcoin
and you pair that say with Rune or whatever, but the actual liquidity, that's virtualized
at the app layer, but the actual liquidity is inside of the L1 Bitcoin pool.
So that should increase the depth of the L1 Bitcoin pool via liquidity additions at the app layer.
Okay.
Explain the difference between a saver synth unit and the secured asset.
What's the difference there?
No leverage on the pools.
You know, it could...
Okay.
So when you add...
Yeah, I thought about this too,
because I'm like, well, how does this thing work?
Since leverage on the pool,
because you have dynamic synth collateral units which are
then going to be obviously fully collateralized based off the value that it's in there regardless
of what happens in the pool so that's why the the pool when it contracts and expands that the synth
collateral units are always updating to either take away from the lper or add to the lps position
away from the LPR or add to the LPR's position to confirm that collateral.
This is not since.
What this would do is when you add L1, when you add your, say, synthetic, sorry, when
you add secured Bitcoin to the pool, it will add it to the actual L1 Bitcoin pool and issue
with an LP token.
And that LP token then is basically like LP units on L1
that gives you an ownership over the pool because then that allows the Bitcoin and the rune inside
of the pool to change based off the pool movements because you couldn't add secured assets,
secured BTC into the pool because obviously the pool is always subject
to impairment loss and always going to move.
So therefore, it's not collateralized
as in the same way secured assets are outside of the pool
because it's inside of the pool.
The way that's represented is through an LP token,
which is ownership of the pool at the app layer.
And I don't know,
Shapeshift intern,
I have you stuck.
I'm trying to like,
I have your request.
I don't know.
I got Koitsu up.
I've been trying to confirm you to come up
if you want to resubmit
or maybe you're not one to talk anymore,
but that's, I don't know.
I don't know why you're not coming up.
Koitsu, did you have something you want to ask about specifically to that yeah chris is that not
effectively you're essentially having a token that is like to me that seems the same as almost
like a wrapped asset how does that work with economics if someone withdraws a large amount
from the pool is that is that uh token asset that correlates with whatever
their lp units is is that actually tracks throughout all everything or do we run the risk of
someone withdrawing from the lp and then causing the people that hold the lp token to not have any
value anymore to me it just seems like a wrapped asset but i don't think i'm looking at it the right way hey mate good to finally speak uh we talked a lot on discord
um no in in if we go if we forget about the secure stuff when you add to a liquidity pool
you're issued um liquidity pool units lp units. And that essentially is a representation
of the ownership of the pool.
You could think about it,
your issued a percentage ownership of the pool.
When you add at the secured layer,
you're just getting an LP token,
which is essentially the same as the LP units.
So the liquidity addition at the secured
secured asset part is no different to an L1 edition it just takes that secured asset
burns it takes the Bitcoin collateral and then puts that into the pool and then gives you back
that LP token so there's no difference difference to then sending really L1 Bitcoin
in to the pool directly and getting your LP units.
It's just that one you've got a token, the other one you don't.
So when you go to cash in the LP unit,
are you only able to get back a secured Bitcoin
or are you able to choose whether you get back a L1 Bitcoin
or a secured Bitcoin?
I think the way
the writing is, yeah, you
will burn the secured
the LP token and then you're
issued back your secured BDC.
So you get back the same
thing that was put in.
You can't change assets at the same time.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Or if you did change it, it's still okay
because there's no funny business going on.
Everything is accounted for.
Oh, I guess technically, yeah,
it could be considered just a swap,
in which case, okay, convenience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Think of it like a shortcut.
I've got a secured asset,
and then I swap it to an l1
asset and then i add it to a liquidity pool that's just you know that's the long way of doing
it's adding a secured asset to the liquidity pool and then yeah that's a good way to describe it
chris actually that makes sense to me i I understand. The withdrawing is just the reverse of that, obviously.
And then except you have basis points where you can withdraw a percentage of it.
I want to withdraw half.
I take it out, put it to L1, then swap that to secured, and then off I go.
So is this going to be for, like, should this help market making?
Like, is it arbitrage bots are going to take advantage of this or like what or is this done for retail
usage
you get to not sure in but it would improve I just got my notes improving the
composability the app layer protocols so in the app layers could do this for like NAMI
that wants to do yield bearing strategies,
could utilize liquidity pools to get a return
as part of its yield bearing strategies.
Got it.
That was about if it was even necessary,
but then considering its app layer, yeah.
And of course, trade assets are completely different.
They don't work this way.
So, okay.
Yeah, I think I get it.
So, you know, when you're like, I've documented,
these are the type of documents and videos and pictures
I definitely want to be drawing next
because it's very hard to, you know,
explain this stuff via voice and words only it's just
much easier via picture yeah when i was listening to you talk about the ibc stuff i was not up here
but i was talking to myself going uh i need a visual because kenton's also like i don't get
this either and i'm like i need a visual and I know there's a guy to come out with a visual. It will be Chris.
Yeah, I'll get with PM and Mark and see if we can get some specifics on it.
I'll take the opportunity to show you a little bit,
Grassroots Crypto.
He has a YouTube channel, same name.
If anyone in here, I'm seeing lots of new faces.
I'm seeing some friends, some XRP community here.
If you, I'm telling'm telling you go to his youtube
he breaks down thorachain in a way that's very intuitive because a lot of the things we've been
talking about they might sound a little technical um he takes you from you know level one to level
100 okay um and once you visualize how it all works it makes a lot more sense um explaining
it without visualization you have to construct a mental
model and that is very difficult to do so um i highly recommend you guys go check out his youtube
channel subscribe and go down the rabbit hole like i did back in 2021 and they're in there
he does a great job the videos are they're digest, like 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes long,
about one topic each. Right. So like this space has been long, right? This is probably a lot. It's like kind of like drinking from a fire hose,
go over all these different things. But when you go to his YouTube channel,
if you're like, I just, I just want to learn about this feature,
how does that work? And he's got a dedicated video just for that.
And so it's, it's really easy to go at your own pace and uh
and yeah and not not be overwhelmed and and i should also go ahead yeah if you're listening
and you are new um we'll talk about this stuff because we've been around a while so we know
we we generally know like i wouldn't i won't go as far as say I know what I'm talking about
But we at least we know the terminology and we're familiar enough with Thor chain that we kind of understand
But if you're new and you're like, I don't I only did 20% what these guys are talking about
DRC's videos are top-notch. They will absolutely fill you in a really really
like a really really easy to consume way and
There's always the discords if you have further questions and everybody will help you out.
Right. And I'm glad you mentioned that because we got baloney bones in the
audience. One of the best educators that we have as well.
Constantly making writing material, making things easily digestible as well.
So we have a lot of resources, guys. I can't post any, it's so bugged.
I can't do anything, but just,
just click my profile or Kenton's or Koitsu or grassroots um if you're interested i will send you all the resources so that you can um
then you can learn on this on your own speed um because the faster more people learn about
this stuff the better because what we're building here truly changes everything and i do see some
xr peers in here i mean all the stuff that's coming on the app layer i mean the world's
going to open and because now we have layer one xrp available i mean it's a really exciting time um it's gonna make it just
makes every asset better like 14 just makes every asset just gives it so much more utility right so
it's not just a one-way street here like it's it's a two-way street we add support for assets
we had all these new primitives and everyone
flourishes together because it's just more interoperability. There's just more things you
can do, right? I mean, Bitcoin's been boring for most of its life, but now you can really do some
interesting things with it that can help make the asset worth more, right? So again, I encourage
anyone to reach out to any of the speakers up here, follow us, follow people in the audience,
anyone to reach out to any of the speakers up here follow us um follow people in the audience
uh just familiarize yourself because this is cutting edge stuff what's coming is i truly
believe it's going to change the world for better i'm so excited um is anyone up here have uh anything
else i want to add grass go ahead chris no thanks for that thanks for the shout out very kind um
honestly i'll start drawing pictures just you to try and learn and understand it myself.
So usually it's like version 20 of the picture that you might see.
Same thing with trying to put stuff out in spreadsheets just to figure out how it works.
Thanks for that.
Yeah, I just wanted to say I thought Baloney might want to have something to say. Maybe we can request him to speak or make him a speaker.
Yeah, and ShapeShift, again, it went away.
Maybe restart your phone.
I have no idea.
I swear to God, I'm pushing accept, and it's just, I don't know what's going on.
But yeah, I don't want, you know, Baloney Bones, if you're busy and you can't come up,
you know, I don't want to add pressure to anybody.
We'd love to have you, obviously, but I just want to make sure you got your shout out.
Go ahead, Kenton.
No, I was going to say anyone else listening wants to jump up and ask questions, by all means, please.
Okay, Chris, you said all that stuff, that great list of things that are coming.
I don't want to get
ahead of our skis here but uh what's the next iteration just in a you know you can put in
simple words like what gets you excited after this i think most of it's here it's just going
to be the limit orders and some of the um app last stuff that's coming the rest of it's kind
of in like it's already in Mainnet now.
I think what gets me excited is the app platforming. There's like a whole,
there's a whole obviously suite of default applications
that we've been, you know,
this space has been talking about for a while.
And then there's obviously,
that's gonna allow a whole world of new use cases
and people to join thought chain for different you know reasons so it's like all these different avenues to come in not just for the app
lab when the app layer connects to other things so definitely the app layers what what is exciting
to see that fully fleshed out and um and getting that in time ready for when that when
the market comes up i couldn't agree more um i think you got up shape shift that's awesome baloney
bones will go to you and then we'll go to shape shifts what's going on guys
i want to test your mic out there, Baloney Bones. Can't hear you, brother.
I'll give you a few more seconds, and I'll just go to ShapeShift.
No worries.
Can you hear me?
I realize that the ThorChain community is on the phone, and I'm on the computer.
You got me?
Yeah, I got you.
I can hear myself talking, so maybe get away from the speaker or mute one aspect but yep
i can hear you brother
okay tell him to mute now he can't talk anymore
Now he can't talk anymore.
Shit.
Yeah, there's technology making life easier.
Yeah.
Oh, yep.
Yep, go ahead.
So I think 13 Heavens can corroborate, but I might have missed the memo.
Shapeshift got done testing and launched integration with Maya this Monday,
a couple days ago, or and uh solana respectively at the
beginning of the year i posted it in the thor chain comments yeah yeah and as soon as solana
goes live on thor chain then shapeshift i i hope shapeshift's getting in touch with the ruji guys
uh so they can slot in the d5 printers and stuff that can come on the Salana.
Yeah, our dev kids are cooking like crazy.
I don't know if you've seen the metrics of what we've been shipping, but I'll post it because it's some horn-tooting-worthy shipping.
So, yeah, they got a lot on their plate.
They're chewing it up and spitting it out.
But, yeah, we've had Salana since for over seven months now.
And Maya Protocol officially launched Monday.
Love it.
That's awesome.
Thank you for the update, Shift.
Do you want to go ahead and try again, Baloney?
I'm assuming you're talking about the Thornton community one.
Yeah.
Can you hear me right now?
Yeah, brother.
Go ahead.
You sound great.
Oh, I just wanted to say thanks to you three uh i'm all caught up now i've been working in the back office for a while and uh it's nice to hear everybody's still kicking ass um yeah man
i'm just i'm excited i think that there's a lot of positives uh impetus going on these days.
I just had a call with Simon earlier today.
And, yeah, a lot of good stuff coming.
So, everything that you guys were talking about, I was taking notes on.
So, I just wanted to say.
Oh, he dropped.
Damn.
Well, he was saying something really nice there
um freaking x spaces you guys i love the great car i just like to say in rug pull
that's frustrating i know it's kind of he's laughing. It's part of the charm. It's part of the charm of X anymore.
I mean, really, we could be bitching about expensive radio licensing
and broadcasting bills and renting out a radio studio
or a television studio with union employees,
but now we're just bitching about X for $20 a year or whatever.
So we'll be all right.
I'm trying to see.
Can we invite, can we get Baloney back up?
I want him to talk about Throat Chain community.
If I don't get booted, I'd be happy to.
There you go.
I can hear you.
Perfect.
Yeah, man.
So I realized after a while that uh the thor chain
university everybody kind of learned everything um but now it seems that there's you know that i
really love that of out like all what was it the past five years there's like uh there's like a
pillar of just this focus on learning.
And you guys are kicking butt with all of it.
So I intend to be around more in these spaces that you guys are doing.
So I also want to offer the ThorChain community handle if you guys ever need it for anything.
So the Discord's open we've got um you know we're
we're answering tickets and i saw your comment your post earlier kenton uh sam yap just posted
it in our team server i like it which post i'm digging i've been posting it was the one it was
it was the one where we were you suggested we be deployed
We'd be deployed the the Thor chain community
server Discord would be like a support. Oh
For a for a Thor chain only front end
Yeah, yes, I'm volunteering you to do more work
Yeah you to do more work uh just deploy me just tell me what to do yeah well
man i'm gonna open up a little can of worms this will be the topic for saturday um but yeah uh but but but to be frank um like like your whole transition from thortian university to thortian
community uh in my mind i think is is really important for ThorChain because,
and I'm glad Koitsu, you're here, you can attest to this.
Like, you know, Koitsu and Samyap spend so much time in the developer Discord
dealing with people who really should be in a community Discord.
should be in a community discord and um um you know take and i think it's tough because quite
soon sami up don't really have anywhere to send these people and um and they can send them to you
and you know where they belong type thing right and then um which i think is really important to
have like you know people go to ask more general stuff, you know,
maybe talk about the ruin price, whatever.
And then the question,
when I keep talking about Thorchain front end, you know,
the question has come up a few times, well, who, who supports it, right?
You know, who's going to do the work, right?
Cause there's invariably going to be questions.
And like, in my mind, that's obviously the community discord but like you know there's lots to hash
out if any of this becomes a reality but I'm glad really glad that you you you see that you're already
positive about it didn't take offense or I really I have always been working with nine realms ever since 2020 um i talked a lot with gavin and orion and uh orion
back then and every time like you know i i've touched base with them fairly frequently over
the years and i really appreciate simon taking over the ceo role and i'm meeting with him and
it was kind of uh realized that the the ThorChain University had kind of served its purpose of doing the education thing.
But now, like a general community server that's not focused on solely education, and that might deter some folks.
So, yeah.
And also, Sam Yap and Koitsu, they're the studs in ThorChain Community Discord, too.
So they're everywhere. If you see them, yeah, they're also in other places.
But yeah, we've got the experts.
Yeah, it doesn't mean people can't go to the mini Discord to learn and ask questions.
It's just not called university anymore.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, I kind of feel bad
because we should
have a space with you
and just maybe try to talk about
your background, TCU,
the Torchain community,
you're just in Torchain, all kind of stuff,
and then help remind people
that this Discord exists.
Yeah. Try and reinvigorate it um pushes again yeah once upon a time it was called lpu back in the day and um yeah i mean shoot when we started it was i think the first four months we
had 20 000 people in there active so it and then like everyone learned everything and
then they moved over to the dev discord and then there was it it seemed to have uh soaked up the
bandwidth a lot over there so I talked to nine realms and kind of trouble uh did some troubleshooting
with them and this was the idea and now we we're getting the ball rolling with some outputs
now that we've got a nice mission on our hands.
Well, I think the front end idea, Kenton,
and having them linked to the Discord is a brilliant idea.
I love that so much.
I'm actually mad that I didn't even think about that myself.
So I think that's a great way to get new people,
new blood and get them educated
because you guys are very good at educating people.
We just we just and I think we're going to have a whole new wave of individuals coming in.
Well, that's the thing. We're a bunch of teachers and not great marketers.
So, you know, as it goes.
Well, teaching is a good form of marketing.
It is my guess, maybe not originally getting someone.
But once you get them
yeah teaching it is great because it keeps people engaged you know they're when people like on like
learn honestly like it's stimulating right it's a double it's a dopamine hit yeah i would say that
we we taught a lot of um folks in the beginning and chris i mean ch Chris was there well before, what, 2018 or something?
Chris is the OG OG.
And I learned from watching his videos posted from, like, 2019.
But, yeah, man.
I mean, like, and really, once it clicks, you don't leave Thor chain.
It works.
And I'm excited, especially with everything that you guys talked about tonight
shapeshift get your hand up
shapeshift intern yeah i got to get that delay on the mute button i needed to take this opportunity to publicly express gratitude to uh chris at grassroots he He's done a thankless job and I don't think we could thank him enough.
And I also would like to rob this train and invite everybody to watch us build
in the open tomorrow,
3 PM Pacific standard time on the shape shift discord.
There's going to be our all Fox,
which is every three months we just do a complete rundown and yeah,
it's kind of a teaser
for alpha i don't like to be a tease so i gotta keep my words short but uh we may try to simulcast
on x but we all know how that goes i'll uh probably do a follow-up post either way thanks chris you're You're a killer. Godspeed.
Go ahead, Chris.
I just want to say thank you.
I do like explaining these things,
and I'm always happy that people find it useful.
I am also very happy that ShakeShift has integrated MyChain.
That is really cool.
I want to see them put together and it is great.
I think if you're supporting one, you also want to support the other and really big believer on that type of thing.
For anyone, obviously I've covered a lot of comprehensive detail.
So if anyone wants to get more information,
I'd recommend going to the 4Chain community Discord server.
They have fantastic mods that somehow, you know, I feel like they know more than me because
they are very in touch with what's going on.
They seemingly read every message on the Dev Discord server and every other server there
and all the servers.
So if you're new, you wanted to get questions answered, dip your toe in a little bit instead
of jumping the deep end with some of the stuff I've done,
definitely join the ThoughtChain community Discord server
and ask all your questions there because they have really good, fantastic mods
and that is the best place to start exploring
and they'll be able to throw you the resources you need
at the pace that you want to, that you need it. You know what I mean?
I've also got a course. I don't know if that course is still going. It's just to walk your
way through ThoughtChain and get started so you can start to understand these concepts.
And then the more you do that, the more that these type of conversations become
understandable and don't feel like it's hard. I know when first starting out, I didn't understand any of this stuff and it was kind of weird.
They said don't be the smartest person in the room, but that doesn't mean you're not going to feel dumb at times.
That's what I felt.
So take your time, learn, ask lots of questions and it's all there and available and lots of people there willing to help,
particularly at the Full Chain Community Discord and lots of people there willing to help, particularly at the FullChain community Discord
and obviously the people here on the spaces.
Yeah, learning about FullChain is a humbling experience, really.
Yeah, you'll be the smartest guy in the world
and it's still a scratch your head.
Yeah, absolutely true.
That's actually a really great segue.
I do not want this space to end
the reason i have to leave is i have a little side project i'm doing with jane butterfly
um and she's actually waiting for me um but that was a great segue crap uh chris i'm gonna he said
dip a toe i'm gonna be on the dip a toe show which is a show that's um specifically geared
to xr peers primarily um i'll be doing that tomorrow guys so i'm gonna do my best to uh
help them understand thorn chain i see there is a few extra peers in here, which I'm so thankful
you guys are here. And I'm hoping you guys will also take the knowledge you learned today and help
on-ramp extra people to understand what we built here that's mostly at your benefit.
And it's the benefit of the world, really, but we're just connecting anyone and everyone.
So I'm going to, God, I hope, Satoshi, I see you're up here so i'm going to i god i hope satoshi
i see you're up here i'm gonna request i'm gonna go down from co-hosts if this kills the space i
am so so sorry but i have to leave um thank you chris thank you baloney thank you everybody
you're wonderful um i'm feeling really good so i hope everyone has a great day
keep the conversation going guys thank you
thanks patriot um i think you should be fine if you leave
um, uh, satoshi
Brida, burda, we brought you up there. I don't I don't know if said it said it right, but uh, go ahead
She's satoshi's bride
She's quite lovely
Correct and correct. correct okay thanks and well i wanted to first say thank you for the mic
and then i got a tail end of that shape shift intern talking about building in public and
yeah maybe i'll go there and i can try to add value um and then thor chain i don't know anything but i do like grassroots
movements and i would say uh my ears are open
how did you find out about this space what brought you in
i followed a shape shift okay gotcha The red one over there. Yeah.
Right on.
Yeah.
He tends to be in intelligent spaces and he's kind overall.
So I thought y'all probably be kind like him as well.
I like to think so.
But we're,
I think we're quite literally wrapping it up.
I don't know if you,
did you listen to any of the earlier parts?
Did you have any questions or things you wanted to add to what we were talking about?
No, I just wanted to introduce myself and then follow you all and then do my own research and see you in the next stream.
How about that?
Awesome. Great. Well, glad to have you. Thank you.
And I don't know if you heard about the ThorChain community. For people new to ThorChain learning about it, there's a ThorChain community Discord, which you can jump in and basically start at zero if you want. And they can get you up to speed. But yeah, welcome. Thank you.
thank you
Chris I think
that's great man I really appreciate your time
hope everybody
else does
you guys if you like this space
please repost it if you listen to the recording
please repost it and help get the
message out there
I think the topic that
we're going to we did this space today
just because of Chris's travel schedule
but we're still going to do one this Saturday.
And I think that one, the topic will be about having a Thorchain front end.
I created some drama with the whole ADR20 and the Ruggiero compete,
and the terms in there, so we can talk about that.
And then, yeah, obviously anything else,
if you guys, you know, if you're listening,
you want to come up and talk about it on Saturday,
you're welcome to.
But other than that, thanks for coming, everybody.
And we'll be in touch.
Take care.
Bye.
Thank you very much.
Catch you later.
Take care again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
