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HBAR Open Mic! 🎙️🟢
Recorded: Dec. 18, 2025 Duration: 1:49:51Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, key developments in the Hedera ecosystem were highlighted, including the strategic partnership with Repsol, the launch of the Scribble notepad app, and the upcoming Spirits of Ayahuasca NFT collection. The Hedera Foundation's commitment to funding and ecosystem growth was underscored by the reallocation of HBAR for grants and partnerships.
Full Transcription
Thank you. See what? See what? See what? Thank you. Thank you. all right all right thanks aircraft with araf, for the lovely CYWI intro.
Welcome back, everybody, to Caviplaza.
I hope you're all having a great day and a wonderful week.
We're ramping up to the end of the year.
It's good to see you guys.
Jordan, Brandon, HBots, Cube, Oracle, Sleazy, Slimy, and Live.h.
I believe, I think, I'll send you a new um invite to speak
random but i saw some posts about x space is really acting up yesterday um some people ending
the space because it just wasn't working so i really hope that um today's galley plaza will um will have no issues but we'll see we'll see it's always a
surprise how well things are working uh on x basis well okay it seems that we have brandon
back on stage as well let's get some more people here um yeah let's fill the space up so we can
talk about hedera about hbar um it's just there's no uh it's not a special episode today it's just
uh just as any any other episode um let's see maybe we have some time next
not the the next place will be the first of january actually first the last space of the year
the next place will be the first of january actually this is the last space of the year
um i guess it is yeah yep next week is uh it's christmas so this is the last space of the year
good fire nara 2025. yeah oh it seems that man it seems that 2026 will um
Seems that 2026 will be bonkers.
Could be quite cool.
It's really ramping up to be a great year.
And yeah, I'm curious to hear from you guys actually,
how you guys have experienced this year,
what your hopes and dreams are for next year,
or your worries for next year.
That might also be the case.
I don't know if you guys are optimistic or pessimistic about it i know the opinions are very divided at the moment some people are calling for
full-on bear market other people are calling for the four-year cycle to end and the biggest bull
market ever so um it's definitely interesting and that's what we like. It's never boring in Web3.
Well, I'm lying.
Sometimes it is boring, but definitely not now.
So, yeah.
Welcome, everybody.
And Patrick, we've got you as well. I almost thought that you weren't showing up
and we had Joe instead of you,
but we've got the both of you, which is great.
How are you doing?
I don't know why you thought I wasn't going to show up today.
Well, because you were late.
I'm always late. The thing is, with X, you can't like...
What I always do, I just wait for X to show me the Kabila logo
glowing up or whatever, so that there's a space.
But for some reason, it always delays a little bit or sometimes you have to refresh it and then then i can click it so that's why it's
usually um i'm at least one minute late but also you can't like put your phone down and then already
start listening do it in automatic that it's going to join
automatically or something.
And I don't want to stress and stare at my phone.
Okay.
10, 9, 8, 7, 6, and then join first.
Now, I don't do that.
So I'm like, okay, five o'clock, I get my phone, see if Kabila is glowing up for the
space and I press it.
If not, I refresh it.
So yeah, that's why.
But okay.
Enough about that.
So I think you might be right.
Let's hope that 2026 will be a great year.
So far, I was only right when I thought it was springtime
concerning the bull market.
Then when summer hit and we had all these peaks,
I thought we were still going higher, but it was already summer.
Now, I think we actually did have the four-year cycle.
It was just early, and I think we're going to go to full-blown bear market.
But I am usually wrong, so maybe we're going to have a bull market.
We'll see.
I'm done guessing.
I just – we'll see.
We'll see.
Man, do I hope you're wrong.
I hope so too.
He's wrong. he's wrong he's wrong no no no i'm i'm afraid i'm not but let's see let's see but the more convinced i am the more the likely it is that i'm wrong so
yeah let's hope that i do hope i'm wrong okay i'm just done guessing i will see we'll see. We'll see what happens. Yeah. Well, it's comforting
to know that your track record is bad.
So I really don't...
I feel like next year is going to be
great. And
I've been
watching the
end-of-year community callback, and
I haven't finished yet because the thing is
over three hours long, but it's
super interesting
what they talked about.
And I think that at least in Dara's case, 2026 will be interesting.
Of course, if it will be a full bear market, then it won't reflect in price.
But I think we'll have an interesting year ahead of us nonetheless.
Go ahead, Brandon, man.
I was just saying, yes, I want to give props to ryan for that
three-hour marathon but if you want a few of the highlights i'm going to have a few of them
uh in the show tomorrow so um yeah i mean there was some really good stuff that came out of that
we had a couple bombshells dropped today both with the the new council member uh and the meeting
minutes had something that that kind of shocked me a little bit.
But yeah, yeah, looking forward to it.
Oh, all right.
Oh, it was in the minutes. I need to know.
Yeah, I need to know as well.
I thought it was a good shock, though.
But yeah, Brandon, I would love to know your take.
Well, yeah, I mean, it depends on how you're looking at it.
I'm not going to pass any judgment on it. You know, I have to let it sink in. I may not pass judgment on it because there's certainly some political considerations around all this as well.
Then HBAR Foundation, now the Hedera Foundation, they kind of earmarked $7 billion HBAR to go to them in two tranches.
They got the first tranche of $3.5 billion.
And then the second tranche, it looks like they are going to no longer allocate that to the Hedera Foundation.
That's going to go to – well, you'll have to read theedera Foundation. That's gonna go to, well,
you'll have to read the rest of it,
but because it seems like I know where it's going,
but it's not quite as definitive as I'd like it to be
for me to say it publicly,
and it's kind of a touchy subject.
So I'll leave it there,
but that's what came out of the minutes from what I saw.
Well, okay, that is that is yeah that is big um and i i'm guessing there's no reasoning attached in the
minutes right as to why they're doing that yes there there is um well i can i'll read it uh
let's see tom explain the reasoning behind this recommendation.
Reasons include but are not limited to continued consideration of the optimal home for network development activities and the desire to grant additional flexibility to the board in determining the most prudent and effective use of this funding.
determining the most prudent and effective use of this funding. Ultimately, the goal is to deploy
funding responsibly in support of the network's long-term sustainability. And the hint as to where
it might be going is council members also discussed use case development and confirmed that the Heat team remains the primary contact
to Shepard Development support.
So yeah, I'll leave it there.
Alright, okay.
Also put the minutes up on the Omega board as opposed by Nick.
And it has a couple screenshots from the minutes.
And yeah, what I like is that the remaining balance of almost 3.5 billion HBAR, which
is a hella big amount, it's hereby reallocated to the ecosystem and open source development
fund to be governed and administered by the council's board.
So yeah, I feel like that's a really positive thing, wherein the Hedera and the
council and the board members themselves are going to oversee instead of relying on a third party.
Because we have three ecosystem development funds running independently, being the Hedera Foundation,
the Hashgraph Association, I think they have rebranded as well, and the exponential science fund so it's really great that there's a
there's a fund now run and administered by the Hedera Council and I feel like
that will bring in some good impetus to the development over here in the
ecosystem
and I'm also happy to jump in on the bear market, bull market, all that kind of stuff.
But I probably should do that from the HBAR bull account.
I don't want to be representing Sausage Swap when I talk about that.
All right. Switch over.
No, no, we're not switching on just yet.
I mean, we've got some time.
And by the way, everyone, if you have a question regarding any of these topics
or regarding any other topic, feel free to come up or post it in the comments
and we'll get to that.
So, and HBAR Hub, if you want to chime in on this subject or next,
just put up your hand and we'll get to you as well.
Welcome up on stage.
Okay.
Oh, yeah. please go ahead hello good morning or evening wherever you are yeah so I I'll give my thoughts on the announcement of the H bars being
retained for the council I was under the impression that they sent all those hbars to
the different foundations whether it's the hedera foundation previously hbar foundation and the
exponential science foundation and the hashgraph association they uh i feel like they did it to
avoid a lot of regulatory hurdles and now that there's more pro crypto regulations out
they're probably feeling more freedom to do something that i think it's it's more similar
to ripple than a lot of other chains so that's kind of interesting i don't i don't know if that's
a good thing or a bad thing but ripple's's been able to get a lot of partnerships because of the crypto that they've given to different entities.
I don't know whether I like that or not, but I like the idea that they're able to decide more what they want.
what they want. Now,
the centralized... I mean, if it's
going to... What Brandon just read
makes me think... I know Brandon
didn't want to say, but I'll say because I'm not
in... I don't have any partnerships.
But, uh, I...
Yeah, it seems like they're looking
at giving it...
To be honest.
So, yeah, just...
Those are some of my initial thoughts.
Well, you just... You rugged on me there for a second.
I was just about to say at the moment.
Oh, you rug.
Okay.
Sorry.
Uh, essentially I, I don't know.
I, I think I've probably cut off in the heat thing.
I, it sounds like a lot like hip ripple.
Uh, also I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing and i also don't
love that it's going to heat i mean i know brandon read that and he doesn't want to say anything but
i imagine that means they're looking at giving some to heat at least um but i that's yeah don't
take that as the truth necessarily.
But yeah, that sounds like partially where they want to give to.
And maybe that's fine for part of it.
But I hope they don't just give it all to one entity, even though I love Rob.
I, yeah, I think it would be great to have more decentralized discretion.
to have more decentralized discretion.
Did you have your hand up there, Brandon, or not?
No, not this time.
Oh, okay. I thought so.
Joe, you're still unmuted. Is that intentional?
I'm just brave.
Yeah, okay.
I'm brave enough to go about my day unmuted.
Yeah, that's very brave.
Just don't go anywhere where we wouldn't want to hear you.
But no, I think it definitely sounds like these HBARs will be allocated more towards enterprise instead of the smaller retail ecosystem.
these HBARs will be allocated more towards enterprise instead of the smaller
retail ecosystem.
Is that a logical,
is that logical to think,
Brandon?
No comment.
All right.
Yeah.
Well,
I don't know. That's the kind of the conclusion that, that, that, Yeah, well, I don't know. That's kind of the conclusion that...
Honestly, I don't know. And that's why I kind of want to wait until some more things come out.
I think that is, if you wanted to go down the line of speculating, I think that that's reasonable, but who knows? And to HBAR Hub's point,
Rob probably deserves whatever allocation
he might get out of this because he is a superstar.
And I have full faith in his ability to execute.
And he really hasn't had the ability
to do that to this point.
Yeah, it'd be nice to give him some,
give the Heat team some to boost some ideas and let the companies feel like they're not losing a lot by trying. I mean, I think that's a valid use for these things.
It was called the HBAR Foundation.
I mean, I'll call it chaos.
I mean, it wasn't complete chaos, but some frustrations, we'll call it that.
And while the Hashgraph Association was just rocking it, and I feel like they've been doing
amazing the whole time, I am glad that the Hedera Council decided to split off funds
to different foundations that would have separate discretion.
I mean, imagine if they had all given it to an entity that was paying their employees maybe
too much. I don't know all the details, but I just do like the idea that we have three foundations
with three separate focuses. And let's say they decide to give it to another foundation, I'm totally okay
with that. Even, I mean, I'm sure that Hedera Foundation is not thrilled about this decision,
but yeah, that's the only downside. I will say that the Hedera Foundation has done a fantastic
job this year, and they had some great use cases early on as well. But I will second that the Hashgraph Association, some of their partnerships are really impressive. I don't
think you can find across all of crypto a more exciting use case than CLSQ. And I actually just
got off the phone or just got out of a meeting with Jonathan, who's spearheading the QuakeCoin initiative.
And it has the potential to be hands down easily the biggest token on HTS.
And some of the listings that they're looking at as far as centralized exchanges should have everybody,
even though people aren't really aware of it, should have people really excited.
And the use case itself, the traction, the fact that it's coming from a Nasdaq listed company, all of that kind of stuff.
And of course, the reason I'm having conversations with them is, you know, representing SaucerSwap, making sure that we have a DeFi plan and strategy in place for their token as well is the reason why I was on that call.
But yeah, second everything you had to say, HBAR Hub.
Yeah, I'll also say that Hedera Foundation this year has actually done a lot of good work.
The damage that was done and whatever workflows that were set up before, it takes time for a new
leadership to come in and really change it all up. But I think Charles Atkins has done a great job.
Also, I'm loving that they're doing ecosystem spotlight spaces.
I think that was very much needed because we see the kind of engagement the spaces get when Hedera Foundation or Hedera is hosting them.
So, yeah, they did the DeFi spotlight yesterday.
They did the AI spotlight today.
And it's amazing to see.
I'm sure they'll get around to do an NFT spotlight as well.
I'm sure you'll get a good seat on that.
But yeah, I think it's really important.
It's really necessary.
That's the kind of support that the retail ecosystem needs from the higher-ups.
And you're right, Brandon.
There were a few wins for the HBAR Foundation for sure.
I always used to quote Karate Combat and SaucerSwap because I know SaucerSwap was one of the grantees as well which actually did really well no matter how the karate
token is doing Karate Combat is still a revolutionary project the tokenomics of that token are
different because it's an up only kind of a project so do your own research on that but karate combat itself is a really great and revolutionary project in itself
for all of sports so yeah but they had some problems with the inner workings like hbar hub
was talking about maybe uh too much salaries or people i don't know people not respecting the ethos
of hedera or dumping the tokens
on us or whatever.
But like, I hope with time we're able to get over all of those situations and circumstances
and really get back to a whole lot of positive growth in the ecosystem.
And I feel like that's where we are headed.
And it's good to see all these decisions coming in.
Also, the survey that was posted by Hedera, I think one or two days ago.
It's brilliant to see that, you know.
They're opening up a survey for the community.
So I think everybody should go on there and really express their sentiment and take full
use of that.
Because it's a really good step that they're opening up a survey and they have a couple
sections where you can actually write down what you want not just like choose options but really
write down what do you expect or what you would want from them so yeah the people who are big
twitter warriors as well i think it's really good if you use all your research and everything you've
done and really voice it all out to the uh hedera
council and the people who are going to be reading that so yeah big shout out to hedera for actually
launching that survey because that makes the community feel heard and these bullish news uh
in a span of like one or two weeks it's just like i feel like it's gonna gonna turn the positive sentiment of the community
on its head like i feel like we were in need for some positivity we have a new governing council
member announced there's a community survey going on the minutes are looking bullish really really
bullish there's a ecosystem development fund now headed and administered by the Hedera Council and the board themselves.
Yeah, things are looking great.
I'm super excited.
I'm really, really excited about these changes.
I asked for free HBAR.
What did you ask for, Ekwa?
I asked for clarity on the complete decentralization.
I know you were joking, Joe.
Yeah, I was definitely joking.
But I asked for clarity on the roadmap to decentralization,
you know, because the community nodes
have been delayed for a while.
So I feel like that is really important.
Also, a roadmap of the token release schedule,
I think, because they have kind of accelerated
the token release.
We have more than like, I think approximately 85% of the HBAR in circulation,
which is a really great thing.
We're like almost about to be non-inflationary when we get to 100%.
A little bit of clarity on that would be great as well.
And of course, more of these outreach measures to interact with the community,
get the feedback from the community,
and hosting more retail-driven activity because it's not all about the enterprise.
Enterprises keep building in the back end. They want Hedera to be on the backseat and their app
and their product to be on the front end, which is obviously great that they can integrate the
HBAR technology seamlessly.
But it's the retail who are really pushing the name of Hedera,
where we are proudly shouting it out to everyone that,
oh, we're built on Hedera.
Hedera is so special.
The consensus algorithm, the token service,
we're the ones who are championing Hedera everywhere.
So yeah, more attention to retail would be freaking awesome as well.
But yeah, I really applaud them
for putting out that survey.
Yeah, I mentioned,
I've met a lot of people from Hedera,
been fortunate to go to
not all of the events, obviously,
but most of the events in the US
and then some of the smaller events. there was there's a bit of a
disconnect some of the people at the top are very in touch with the ecosystem you take Charles and
Rob but I did mention that some of the people that are on the ground floor that are in front of people with these events and in communication with brands and businesses are completely but you don't see them in spaces.
You don't see them interacting.
You see them at events, and then you don't see them ever again.
And maybe follow each other on X, but they don't communicate about Hedera projects, brands.
And I just mentioned that maybe they would bring some people on board that could do that.
I have a banking and sales background and as a salesperson, you kind of have to adapt
to your audience. So if I'm in a room with my friends that are surgeons and doctors,
in a room with my friends that are, you know, surgeons and doctors, they speak to me one
way.
Sometimes I don't understand them.
But if you can go into a room of surgeons and doctors and fit in and have great conversation,
but then go to a crypto event with a bunch of 20 something DGENs and fit in and have
conversation with them, I think it would behoove the people
in charge to bring on some people that can do both.
And it's a skill set that they might not have previously looked for when they hire.
It goes beyond where you graduated from, what university you graduated from, and how attractive
or unattractive you are. Not saying that they hire just on that, but the ability to be a chameleon
when you're selling a brand or a product is a trait that you don't necessarily get on a resume.
And I think that a lot of the hiring in the past has been done based on
education and resume.
So that's what I,
that's what I talked about.
Interesting.
And to be clear,
did you ask for three HBAR or free HBAR?
Free,
free.
Free is free.
Yeah.
Yes.
I'd said empty the coffers now and just put a claim up and let us all go claim it.
Just on Twitter.
Okay, yeah, just so I know what I can ask for.
If you ask for a three, then...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I didn't want it just for me.
I was like, just put a claim up and let us all go claim it.
We won't dump it.
No, but, yeah, I think we've seen some change on that front as well
with the hiring of Ash.
And is it Jake?
I feel like I got his name wrong.
Yeah, there's some great.
Developer relations on the Hashgraph. Yeah, there's some great... Developer relations on the Hashgraph.
Yeah, there's some great in-touch new hires.
Oh, J. Cool.
A lot of what I'm speaking to, and some of them have already been replaced,
is the front-facing people at these events.
The people that when you walk into an event, you meet face-to-face.
And they're super great people.
And I'm not knocking anyone in particular i just
think that we're we're developed enough and this ecosystem's been here long enough
that you could pull some people um from the ecosystem and put them into places to really
benefit as a whole yeah well thanks for sharing your thoughts and Ekwa as well and for mentioning the survey
and speaking about
Twitter Warriors. We've got one on stage.
Nick, welcome.
I think you want to chime
in here as well, right?
Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.
It was really awesome
to... I'm always
trying to keep an eye out for new minutes
and I don't know,
maybe it's an old habit of mine, like just refreshing that page. I feel like way back
in the day, there was a whole bunch of people who used to like, just I mean, and granted,
that was when the minutes were a little bit more regular. So you could keep up with with
what was being produced. But yeah, no, it was a great surprise to refresh that page and see a new set of minutes.
And, boy, one of my favorite people, you know, Tom Sylvester, he's the one really in the center of the fray in these minutes.
What an amazing – I mean, I think we've seen this development percolating over a few different minute releases that we've seen this year.
We've seen, you know, I think just brief mentions of this kind of agreement
between Hedera and the Hedera Foundation mentioned just in passing,
but I've kind of, it's caught my attention and for this to
for this to now be released in the in the october minutes like my god to to kind of get that i just
feel like it's the right it's the right move we see algo just falling apart we see uh you know i i
think people really starting to look at like okay okay, where, you know, where are we not
being productive? Where are we being productive? You know, the shift from enterprise engagement to
heat, I mean, that's one of the reasons that's justified in the minutes for this shift. You know,
I feel like this year, I don't know, I don't think I've seen really many of any grants getting out
the door, except for the ones that are going to the people who are granting it to
themselves, like, uh,
into the origin and Alex Russman and those guys.
So, um, no, it was crazy to see that.
And also just to echo what Joe said, like,
it is kind of crazy when you go to these physical events,
the people at the top, um, it's amazing how in touch they are, and also
how, like, they're not necessarily, like, they don't necessarily agree with the kind of, like,
the standard message that goes out, and they also can't talk about their own personal feelings.
In public, they can't respond on Twitter, But when you go to these meetings and you interact with the people at the top,
like, they are shockingly with it.
I had amazing conversations with Josh Schrode,
who I've lit him up on Twitter in the last year, year and a half.
You know, he had, you know, a lot of appreciation, even for the contentious, you know, like the questioning of the, you know, the wisdom of the HBAR Foundation and what they're doing.
And also, yeah, like Tom Sylvester, all those guys really are like connected to the community.
And I feel like this shift from the Hederera Council to now, I mean, and hopefully
they don't stop too soon
like they did last time. Hopefully, all
of the necessary heads that need to roll
are removed from the
ecosystem, because I
just think this is super bullish. I can't,
I cannot understate how
awesome this development is, and also,
like, I do think that it is Hedera
being in touch with the real conversations that are being had not just like the narrative that is pushed so I'm
super pumped about this news. I'm glad to hear you being so positive Nick so thanks for that
and I want to give anyone the opportunity to respond to that if you want to.
All right.
I will say that there was some, in the beginning of the year, I think there was some grants that went out that were long overdue.
Earthlings and there was a couple other builders in the space that certainly
deserved to get additional grant funding that got them early in the year. So I give
Charles credit for that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, but also, yeah, I do think that
what I think Charles is a great addition to the community. I think he's really on it. But I do think that, yeah, I mean, like the HBAR Foundation this year has just been disappointment after disappointment. Yeah, they did some good stuff at the beginning. Yeah, they've got HBAR USDC liquidity. That's like low hanging fruit. How do you not have that?
fruit? How do you not have that? But yeah, I mean, yeah, I just think that Hedera Foundation
has completely failed the community. I'm glad that the Hedera Council is now recognizing that,
cutting them off. And I think that, you know, I really think that their focus now on like,
okay, what is this doing for enterprise development? I think this is the conversation
that we need to have. Like, hopefully people start thinking about like, okay, what is this doing for enterprise development? I think this is the conversation that we need to have.
Hopefully, people start thinking about, oh, how many of these enterprises are actually building on smart contracts versus building on the native layer?
None of them.
I would say that probably none of the governing council members are exploring EVM smart contract development on Hedera. They are building applications that are using HCS, that are using HTS, that are using DID solutions,
that are not automating these things with on-chain logic.
So, yeah, I mean, I think this is like where we need to move,
and this is the conversation that we need to have,
and hopefully it shifts some of the prioritization away from the EVM,
which I think has just been a complete misadventure
for the last three years with the Hedera Foundation
and shifts the focus again to the native layer.
HBAR Hub, go ahead.
Thanks.
Yeah, a couple of thoughts regarding,
you mentioned the Algo Foundation.
I mean, I've heard that they're starting to,
they're talking about printing more, right?
Yeah, increasing supply because, yeah,
they've used up all their ecosystem development
and they don't have anything else to spend.
Yep, exactly.
Now, I think that Hedera ecosystem is very far from that
because it looks like we have 85% released. But if you
consider the amount that the foundations still hold, I don't know, I would, I don't know, but
I think it's probably more like 65%, 70. Somebody can correct me if they know the exact numbers, but
they have a big treasure chest still, these foundations develop so in my opinion that's quite far away
and i think we'll hit the momentum before we need any more uh for that so i'm not too worried about
the algo situation um man yeah yeah i i i do agree i think and that's like yes yes, you're right. It looks on paper like we've got 88% of supply released, but in reality, it's like 50%.
It's weird that we're saying, well, maybe that's a good thing, that we have more to spend.
But yeah, the lack of transparency there is just, it's shocking.
And yeah, I don't think you can really, especially when you have ETFs,
when you have institutions that are looking at token emissions and it's a complete black box, you, really should take the cue. And if they're,
if they're being deprioritized and they're designed to support the ecosystem, I think
that they need to consider the value of giving back their, whatever they're sitting on to the,
to the Hedera council so that they can do it. Uh, because I don't, I think that it's, yeah,
I think that they need to kind of take the hint and bow out and, um, let us get can do it. Because I don't, I think that it's, yeah, I think that they need to
kind of take the hint and bow out and let us get on with it. Hopefully more transparency and
hopefully they haven't wasted all of the HBAR in the short three years that they've been operating.
But you never know when they're paying themselves, you know, executive salary emissions at millions of dollars a year. Yeah, I mean, surely we can check the chain to see how many HVARs they still have.
I mean, that's one thought.
But I do agree with you that it would be nice to hear,
since they're not showing these things, it would be good to hear why, at least.
Regarding the EVM thing,
I actually am in support of it. There are so many things, especially regarding tokenization stuff. A lot of financial institutions are experimenting with the EVM. I have a feeling they will choose
to port over to Hedera via EVM bridges. So if for nothing else,
I think the EVM is useful for bridging over
until people see value in other stuff.
The way I see it is the EVM is kind of like a CPU,
but just like with AI and with Bitcoin mining and stuff,
graphics are doing so much more work than the CPU.
And I imagine that the Hedera token service and consensus service and these different things like that are going to operate kind of like the GPU service because that's what Hedera does best, the HDS, HDS.
because that's what Hedera does best, the HDS, HCS.
And then the CPU is the EVM,
which is only used for certain flexible loads every once in a while.
So I think there's value to it.
Well, yeah, I agree.
I think that there's value to it, but value for whom?
I would say value for small to medium-sized businesses
that need to have the on-chain trust,
who, in order to get that on-chain trust, are willing to put their, you know, to have everything
be managed by an on-chain executable. Sure, there might be like a, you know, EVM-based bridge or
whatever, like maybe the bridges are going to be the point of engagement, but I don't think so. I think, you know, what you're going to see as far as like bridging, I think that the optimal way to bridge currency for a large enterprise that doesn't necessarily need trust is to have the kind of on-chain validation for what's happening.
but maybe keep a lot of the operations off-chain so that they can, I mean, all they need to do is have a receiving wallet,
have an automated process that receives custodies, verifies the reserves, and issues the token on the new ledger.
I think you're going to see enterprises using, yes, bridging, but using native token issuers,
using, you know, as many native services as they can.
And I just, yeah, I agree that the EVM is like the execution, but there are other ways
to get the execution.
And I just think that smart contracts are not an enterprise market fit solution.
All right.
Let's kick it to the market sentiment because we promise we'll be talking about that a little bit as well.
Brendan, you said you had some thoughts around that.
By the way, Patrick is having technical issues with X.
By the way, Patrick is having technical issues with X.
So he tried to get up a couple of times, but it's not working for him today.
But before we move on, make sure everyone to like and repost the space.
Leave a comment if you have a question or a thought.
Let's hear it so we can mention it.
We can cover it on the space as well.
On the stage i mean but um yeah
even if you don't have anything to ask or to add to the conversation just leave a fun comment it
helps spreading the space and it helps to get more people in here to talk about hbar and there
are with us ecua what was that exactly what you wanted to say as well or did you have you end up
exactly like 35 40 people in the room, only 30 in repost.
And no matter how the sentiment is, it's us who pushes the algorithm and it's us who
push the positivity.
So yeah, don't be stingy with your likes and reposts.
It really helps the algorithm.
It helps the community.
It helps everyone who's working hard to bring you this content and whatever they're doing.
So, yeah, like and repost.
Don't be stingy.
I'm actually looking, okay?
I'm actually seeing that none of y'all are doing it.
Okay, two people do it.
Two people did it.
Okay, cool, cool.
I did it.
But more engagement, y'all, more engagement.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, we can.
Okay, I dropped.
I lost signal.
I know Patrick's having issues, too.
I kept getting a no-connection message on my phone. Yeah, we can. Okay, I dropped. I lost signal. I know Patrick's having issues too.
I kept getting a no connection message on my phone.
You're loud and clear.
So, yeah, we actually... Okay, I said we'll be kicking into market sentiment,
but we do have two more people up on stage.
And I do want to give those people the opportunity to,
I don't know if you came up to chip in on what we were talking about,
Michael and Scribble.
If there's something else you want to talk about,
then let's hold off for a minute so we can cover it after this topic.
But if you did want to jump in on where we were talking about,
then shoot.
Sure. Hey, this is Michael Wiley I'm probably less qualified than anybody here I'm I'm a pretty much retail investor but
have strong belief in HBAR and the network I listen to Brandon and a lot of y'all's posts and I feel like to some degree I understand the technology, but I don't,
well, I believe highly in the technology, but I'm like the least tech savvy guy you'll meet.
Anyway, to Nick earlier talking about EVM versus native smart contracts, Can y'all kind of explain to me, you know, how it drives
the network or the benefit versus one or the other? To HBAR, Joe, and talking about at some
point community nodes, is there a thought on threshold or what it would take one day to you know where community or somebody can host a node
i as of yesterday long background in in automotive tech and repair closed out on selling our
business anyway very interested don't i know enough to be dangerous. I appreciate y'all letting me speak, but I wanted to share my thoughts.
Yeah, just a second, Nick.
Michael, thanks for coming on and asking these questions.
That's exactly what we like to see in this space.
So amazing.
And anybody is as qualified as anyone to come up on stage and ask some questions.
So yeah, definitely do that.
I wrote down your questions questions and Nick will add,
smart contracts versus the HTS.
Well, I think you have to ask why people are here.
People are into Web3 in general
so that they can interact with people over the internet
and eliminate the counterparty risk.
That is the only reason why we are here. That's
why Bitcoin is cool. Ethereum is really cool because they add programmability to that because
you can extend that trust. It's no longer just like you can do things with the native tools and
services, but you can interact. You can have programmable things happen, um, with smart contracts. So you can have, you know, you can have like one of the best
places where that's used is in exchanges. So you can, you know, you can have an automated process
that lives on chain that you can inspect at any time so that, so that you don't have to trust the
people who are doing the things with the tokens. So, you know, it adds that programmability.
It lets you do cool things, but it lets you do cool things with some extreme limitations.
So smart contracts, like, they have a limitation on the amount of complexity.
you can't have like, I don't know. I think, uh,
You can't have, like, I don't know.
this may change over time,
but I think right now the limit for the size of an on-chain smart contract is
six megabytes. So you're talking about some very, like very limited functionality.
It's just there, you know, there, there are storage limits. There's,
there's complexity limits as a result. Like, um,
you've got also with smart contracts,
a service code to run them.
They run, you know, in that kind of virtual machine
that exists on all the validators.
So you're essentially like using the validators computers
to do the thing that you want to do.
And there are some risks, too, with smart contracts.
I mean, I think hopefully Hedera has resolved all of them.
I think when smart contracts launched, evidently, like, maybe the security wasn't there yet.
But I do think that, you know, maybe we're at a stage of maturity where they can be trusted,
think that, you know, maybe we're at a stage of maturity where they can be trusted, but you can
never have like complete trust or, you know, confidence, in my opinion, in smart contracts.
Yes, they are. They do provide that on-chain trust. But yeah, you run into some issues. Also
issues with immutability. Like, is it an immutable contract? Will it be subject to vulnerabilities
in the future? Is it a mutable contract?
And then, yeah, who's got the keys?
Who's maintaining that?
Is it connected to a website?
Who's maintaining that website?
Is the website pointing to you to the right smart contract?
Like, there are lots of points of failure in using smart contracts.
So, yeah, I mean, I just don't, I don't know that enterprises are really going to be, like, using the smart contracts. So, yeah, I mean, I just don't, I don't know that enterprises are really going to be,
like, using the smart contracts. I think that they're going to be building really cool
applications because they don't need the decentralized trust of putting something
on chain. I just can't imagine that they would want to do that. Why would they? Because you,
like, think of how much we trust Google or Dell or any of the council members.
They don't need a smart contract for us to trust them.
They don't need a smart contract for their existing customers to trust them.
They have the trust.
So it's a different market fit for a lot of what we've seen in Web3 development.
And enterprise focus needs to be treated differently.
And yeah, I mean, I think the native layer is what they're
really interested in building on. I think that kind of covers that question.
So to clarify, and a little bit out of ignorance here, but the smart contract versus just building
natively is what we're talking about, where they kind of build their own system natively on the Hedera system.
Is that right?
Well, the smart contract will interact with the native layer to do things.
But yeah, it's just like a programmable.
You can trust it about as much as i can trust the language that i
just had to read over on everything i signed with the lawyers and the fine print well like there's
always something like you can i mean the thing with computers is that like when something is
well written when it's you know yeah i mean like when the when the technology and service code is mature, you can trust it a lot more.
And, you know, I do think that we are there.
And I think that we should continue, like, you know, I think that the EVM should be available for builders who want to take advantage of that.
Certainly, I think that there's a market for it.
I just don't think that there's an enterprise market for it.
Well, I appreciate your response and insight on that.
Yeah, and as far as what would replace a smart contract, I mean, he talked about building on the native layer.
Essentially, if you were to ever need to do computations of certain things, like swaps or whatever,
do computations of certain things like swaps or whatever you would need to do that outside like
between let's say you and your friends or some side group that you trust and then verify it
on chain and make the actual transfer of the token like an hts token make the transfer using
hedera's token service but all of the decisions on how to make that all happen,
like who gets how much, whatever, that would be done in a side group that you all kind of agree on to trust.
So the risk is, do you trust that group or not?
So that would be the pros and cons of both sides.
Understood. Thank you. And just to to add to that there's a lot
that you can do with just the native layer. So for example the entire platform of Kabila and
Centax as well doesn't use any smart contracts it's just the header token service so for the
marketplace the launchpad all the tools that we have airdirdropping, snapshots, all that sort of stuff, you don't need smart contracts to do that.
So that's all built on the native layer
without any use of smart contracts.
So there's a lot that you can do with just the native layers.
Is there any follow-up question from your side,
or can we move to the question you had for Joe?
No, yeah, please proceed.
I wasn't speaking about the individual nodes.
I think Nick was still talking about that as well.
Yeah, the community nodes,
God, I mean, I hope we see, yeah,
there should be,
eventually I think we're going to see
permissionless nodes, right?
But that's only going to be it.
I mean, that's the goal.
And I think that I've seen that reiterated recently in the HBR ETF language.
They do mention that, like,
and I've been keeping an eye out to make sure that that's still on the
roadmap because they took it off the roadmap and now they don't even have a
roadmap anymore. But yeah, they should be permissionless at some point.
And the Hashgraph algorithm also
is really limited by bandwidth only.
Like it's not, it doesn't require processing.
It's just bandwidth because it's so lightweight.
So in theory, the node requirements
should be pretty minimal.
But what their considerations are as they scale
is the speed of the network.
I think the permissionless nodes might be lightweight,
but I think that they want to have a pretty mature network
that will still operate at what it is now, sub three second finality.
So they're going to be judicious in the rollout of community nodes with the specs and the performance of those nodes so that the network throughput and capacity doesn't get affected.
And also so that security is not compromised at any
point. But yeah, I mean, hopefully we see permissionless. And then there are going to
be no node requirements, but I would imagine that we'll see node requirements for community.
Okay. So are we talking at some point like staking thresholds to meet requirements or at some point not even those?
Still, I mean, still staking requirements will be in place, which is going to be one layer of control that they have over the nodes as they roll them out.
Now that we have decent staking rewards, I think you're going to see those nodes, the stake on all of the available nodes start to fill out.
But yeah, I mean, the community nodes will have to meet the same stake threshold requirements that are currently in place.
All right. Thank you all very much for all the info.
I'll keep listening.
I'll keep listening.
Yeah, great. Brandon, feel free to add on here.
Brandon, feel free to add on here.
Yeah, my thought on community nodes and the need for permissionless nodes is going to be network requirements.
I don't think they're going to add additional nodes unless they think they need it for additional shards or for additional decentralization. I don't know where the sweet spot is going to be,
but I don't think that the council is going to want to give up performance just to have a lot
more nodes. I think that's actually a mistake that a lot of other networks make. I don't know where
that sweet spot is going to be. It's, you know, my guess is someplace between 50 and 200 nodes.
It might be more than that, but I think they're going to want to keep that performance, you know, my guess is someplace between 50 and 200 nodes might be more than that.
But I think they're going to want to keep that performance where it is when it comes to time to consensus finality and all that kind of stuff.
So I think it actually probably in the long term can be met by community nodes.
But but time will tell. But, you know, it depends on how much network usage there is and all that kind of stuff. My expectation is there's going to be the need for hundreds and maybe even thousands of separate shards for Hedera at scale. And that probably can be met with community nodes. Of course, the community would broaden out significantly, but time will tell.
But that's my take.
I think that performance is going to trump just pure decentralization, but time will tell.
Yeah, I think when I watched the start of the roundtable, the end of the year talk,
what Eric Spicini mentioned was that there being the adult of the year talk. What Alex Pissini mentioned was that
Hedera being the adult in the room really benefit...
Oh, Michael, can you mute for a second?
There's an echo.
Yeah, thanks.
And then in a bit, you can jump in.
But yeah, Hedera being the adult in the room
benefits the network very well
in this adoption of enterprise-grade...
Well, this wave of enterprise-grade, well, this wave of enterprise-grade adoption.
And he mentioned things like fixed fees,
the governing council, fair ordering,
and I think with the governing council,
he also basically mentioned the way we've got the nodes set up.
So I agree with you, Brandon, there,
that it doesn't seem likely to me that
they would be changing that to
full-on
community nodes anytime soon. What I
could see them doing is spread out
to ecosystem builders, for example,
saying, hey, Kabila,
Salesforce, Bob, Hatchback, HGraph,
would you guys like to run a node?
Something like that.
So I think there are some steps you can take in between.
That's actually what I mean by community nodes,
is it's going to be known entities that are participating,
not just completely anonymous nodes.
Yeah, that would make a lot of sense as well.
Yeah, Kuki, your hand is up,
but first I want to toss it to Michael.
Is your question answered here?
Yeah, absolutely.
And from my perspective, completely makes sense.
Hopefully we look forward to the future and all the use cases
and the expectations drive the need for that.
Certainly maybe some time.
But again, appreciate all y'all's comments.
Awesome. All right. Kuki, go ahead.
It's a question around the permission nature of Hedera,
like it's not net good or bad,
but what's the thought process generally
with limiting node access to people that want to build?
So from my side of the pond on XRPL, we run a node because there's a legit use case for us to use a stock node to run some of the tech we run on Ledger.
ledger you can't necessarily do that on hedera as i understand it like you you have to either have a
You can't necessarily do that on Hedera, as I understand it.
permission node or you have to run a mirror node which is very limited in what you can and can't
do with it is there not like an appetite to have a middle ground whereby you can have slightly more
active nodes that don't necessarily participate in like the the consensus validation, but can do things like proposed transactions and do validation
locally? Well, there are other types of nodes. There's the block nodes that were just announced
this past Monday, and there are mirror nodes that both can participate in other ways, not
necessarily consensus. But my perspective of, is there a reason to limit, you know, potential, the number of nodes operating
per shard? Now, of course, we only have one shard right now, but there is. As you add additional
nodes, it does impact the performance. And that has to be considered, especially when you want
to be a super performant network like Hedera. So I'm not completely sold that you just want more nodes
for node's sake. You want enough nodes that you are preventing DDoS attacks and things like that,
but you don't want so many nodes that you're having a really adverse effect on the performance
of the network. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see as time goes on.
And I don't think we should necessarily add shards
just to add shards.
We should be adding shards as the network needs it.
So that's kind of my limiting factor.
But granted, you know,
I'm not at the top of the food chain here.
That's just how I think about it.
I'm not at the point I'm getting to,
if that kind of makes sense,
is the unique
thing about Hedera is obviously this governing council that sits and it's large businesses
and myself as a project lead, if I want to build something on Hedera and I want to have
proper infrastructure access, I kind of need to pay a big business to get that access to
at the level that I would want it and that's the part about having like a fully permissioned
network in this way is I struggle with it a little bit it's one of those things that sort
of like limits me a little bit and the fact that you kind of have to almost ask permission
from a big business in order to to do some of the things you want to do. And that doesn't necessarily exist in a model whereby people have access
to run nodes freely or semi-freely.
And I don't quite think like the mirror node probably doesn't quite cut it,
but the block nodes, what's the difference there on a block node
versus a mirror node?
Yeah, again, that's out of my wheelhouse.
I'm not going to answer that.
There might be somebody else up on the panel that can address that.
I do have a good explainer from Richard Baer, one of the developers at Hedera, that can explain that a little bit more.
But you're right.
And I do think that there is a place for entities like you, who's a business that's running for community nodes.
And, you know, I'm guessing, you know, maybe 200 nodes per shard for Hedera.
So there's going to be plenty of room, I think, in the future for people to take advantage just like you.
Now, that said, regardless of who you're sending the transaction to, you're still going to be paying the fee to Hedera in general, right? So
100% overall goes to the Hedera entity. 80% of that is going to go to making the network
sustainable and continuing operations and things like that. 10% is going to go to the token holders
and 10% that have staked to that given node. And then 10% is going to go to the node operator.
So you do have the ability to reduce your cost by 10%,
but not eliminate your cost altogether
as somebody who's functioning on Hader.
Well, and I think too,
the reason to run a node,
I mean, I think it's the same as the reason to run a node anywhere.
It's like the ability to participate in a public network, to be part of the infrastructure, to contribute to the decentralized infrastructure of the network.
Like, I think that that, like, some people are interested in doing it just to participate in the network in that way.
just to participate in the network in that way.
Like there are businesses that want to like set up on Hedera,
participating as a, yeah, as a community node
will definitely be a way to like allocate infrastructure
for the network.
And also like Brandon mentioned,
like we've got the staking rewards account,
we've got the node operator rewards account
that are set up and the council can allocate additional HBAR to those accounts from the fee account to incentivize it and to make sure that the business can be sustainable.
But, yeah, like the reason to participate in the validation should be, I think, purely economic.
participate in the validation should be, I think, purely economic. But yeah, I mean, I think that
there's the rationale for limiting the participation in validation. I agree with Brandon, it comes down
to the council wants to protect the performance of the network, and each node will contribute to latency. I mean, and the marginal latency for each additional node is reduced, but you're still
adding latency for every node.
Yeah, ideally, like the sweet spot may be around like 100 to 200 nodes per shard.
But once we start getting the sharding, we're going to need to have enough validators on each shard so that you've got the sufficient decentralization and resilience in the shard.
So I'm a little bit more optimistic maybe about how that can expand.
that can expand. One of the reasons that has been put forth as well as a reason to limit
participation and validation is some of the regulation around, I think, the people who
are validating the transactions, like KYC, AML kinds of regulations where like, if you're participating in this economic system,
like there may be some additional validity to,
to enterprises if those validators are known and,
you know, like doxed, but, you know, like, you know,
they're known businesses.
I think that that's, you know, I think that there is some
validity there. But I think ultimately, like, I would like to see people who are doing people who
are choosing a validator, like people who need to have requirements for their validators,
I hope that they move more of the hash sphere direction, so that they have a private network so that they can have their own
KYC nodes doing whatever financial application they need to do. But I think when you're talking
about a public network, I think it's really important to have the nodes and the infrastructure
be really democratic. So I think it's a balance, but I hope we're moving toward inclusion myself.
One other thought regarding the nodes, if a lot of blockchains want something like 100 or more
validators, but I think Hedera is a little different because with, I think, every other blockchain, at some point you have one computer choosing what the order is for a certain block.
balance so that you can't have too many nodes go off and then a few evil people can jump in and
create a bunch of bad blocks, like evil blocks. I'll just call them evil blocks. But with Hedera,
you never have any ever, never ever do you have any point where one computer chooses the order of the transactions it's a collective
median of everyone's vote and it's based on h bar weighting so the more h bars you have the more
influence you have over the order and therefore since it's a median, therefore the extremes, the early 25% of the vote is cut out and the late 25% of the vote is cut out, you essentially, this thing called the Nakamoto coefficient, this measure of decentralization, I believe doesn't quite apply to Hedera because of the reasons I gave.
You never have a point where you have one computer choosing the order.
So I think Hedera's a beautiful solution that, you know,
it'll be great to have a few more nodes.
Wonderful.
But it's not quite as necessary.
Also, we've brought up a little bit about these,
like having approved nodes. I've
heard, you know, ARCAC say their customers really want OFAC compliant. They don't want their fees
going to, you know, I'll just say, I won't say any countries, but countries that America,
that the United States doesn't want getting money, you know. And so that is one benefit of a permission nature or at least a KYC, you know, doxed computers like running the system.
OK, that's my thoughts.
Yeah, but their fees are going to the public network and then those fees are then being allocated into people who participate.
So I get it. But I love what you said, too. One of the
things that's not talked about enough is how fair the validation is. And it's not even that they get
to choose the order. They don't even do that. They just communicate the information. They just
follow the rules. That's the brilliant part about the Hashgraph consensus. They just follow the
rules. They gossip their new information. They gossip the last transaction that they sent.
And then they gossip the other parent transaction,
which is one of the more recent transactions
that they've received.
And that's all they do.
And the consensus is generated democratically
from all the nodes just participating,
just following the rules.
And yeah, to me, that's the most remarkable part. That's, you know, how the ordering is established to, yeah. Once two-thirds
of the network knows about the transaction, no additional, you know, there is no adjustment of
the, you know, of the timing or of the ordering. It's just a permanent immutable median timestamp
from the first two-thirds of the network.
Everything else is completely disregarded.
Brendan, I thought you wanted to jump in there as well.
Did I get that right?
Yeah, I think it was covered really well by Nick.
I think that there is also the difference in that the node operators are trusted entities within Hedera
compared to entities that could be nefarious out there.
Everybody dove headlong into EOS when it first came out.
And those node operators were as shady as you could get.
And it was really, as far as the number of nodes and things like that, it was kind of on par with where Hedera was a couple years ago.
But yeah, it is important. The trust also comes from not just one entity, but who the entities are, that they're trying to protect their brands and who they are. Certainly couldn't trust one
of them or a small group of them, but when you're talking about 32, it makes a lot more sense.
All right. Let's kick it to the market sentiment while we still got you, Brandon. You had some
thoughts around that. Maybe you want to kick it off. I do want to mention that the CPI,
thoughts around that. Maybe you want to kick it off. I do want to mention that the CPI,
the inflation data came in very, very low today. So that's a strong signal of what's to come,
what might be to come in 26. So what are your thoughts? What are your views for the next year?
Yeah, it's so hard to know one way or the other. I will say that I have two gut feelings, right?
And they're completely contradictory.
But I've been in this place before, you know, in the four-year cycle.
And, you know, we get there.
And do I necessarily believe that there's fundamentals for the four-year cycle?
It specifically being four years?
Not necessarily, but as long as people
believe it, that's all it takes because those are the market participants. Those are the ones that
are actually buying and selling. So as a base case, I absolutely understand Patrick feeling
like it's over. We're going to be entering a bear market. So I get that. And certainly there are
fundamental reasons to be a little bit concerned.
There's been a lot of talk about the Japanese, the yen carry trade, which is essentially borrowing
money in Japan because they had zero rates pretty much pegged at zero forever. And then
some borrowing over there and then lending it to whatever other market that has higher rates.
And then not just doing that, but levering up on that.
It was very easy between the United States, who's had higher rates over the past couple years, compared to Japan.
And you can just lever the heck out of it.
And as Japan has been increasing rates a little bit and the United States is lowering rates, that can unwind.
And then you start to see hedge funds and institutions blow up and that has a big impact and they have to pull back on their crypto positions and things like that.
Or they might have actually bought crypto with that carry trade and so forth.
So all that kind of stuff unwinds and that can be nasty.
Now, that said, what is Japan's debt to GDP now? What is it? I mean, it's probably pushing 300%. They can't raise rates very far. And I don't know how long they're going to do it for, but they're going to have to reverse course.
in around the world, that we're probably going into a situation over, and this can go much
longer than you'd think, where there's going to have to be some kind of a debt jubilee,
where they're going to have to address these huge debt overhangs, not just in Japan, but
the United States and around the world.
And during those kind of times, you have significant turmoil.
Ray Dalio goes into this a fair amount.
There's smaller debt cycles that have to be addressed on a regular basis.
You're talking about 1933, 1945 with Bretton Woods going off the gold standard in 1971,
the Plaza Accord, and then 2008 where we had to dump a bunch of liquidity in with QE.
And you have these small resets, and then you have a
longer term debt cycle that can be, you know, 80 years, 100 years. And we are kind of getting to
the end of that cycle. When you go through those kind of shifts, it can just be very tumultuous.
And having things like that aren't tied to nation states, debt, currencies, makes a lot of sense. And, you know,
that's Bitcoin. That is the crypto space in a lot of ways, certainly gold and silver. And
we've seen a lot of impact from that. So that's one potential positive over the medium, even
longer term that we could be looking forward to. But as far as the short term, the other kind of gut thing that I, and I've been talking about this on my show, my gut feel going into next year. Certainly if people
don't think that the crypto market is going to go up and they don't want to get involved with the
space, we could certainly be entering a bear market. But the rails are being created with these basketed ETFs. And those are going to be much more enticing for the early majority investors to get involved than something like Bitcoin or even HBR, direct ETFs into single assets.
They don't want to think about who the winner is going to be.
And that coupled with we're in a very different situation than when we were exiting 2021. They were starting to raise rates not long after that. And they were entering quantitative tightening where they were firing up their monetary incinerator and destroying money.
incinerator and destroying money. And despite that, we've had a fairly good run here because
of the regulatory environment that we've entered over the past year and a month. And
those fundamentals are still there and good. Now we're switching from quantitative tightening to
quantitative easing. They are lowering rates somewhat. You know, you've heard about people saying that there's a major refinancing that has to be done. And governments
like the United States want to term out their debt. So going from short term treasuries to
long term bonds. And they want to do that at lower rates, which they're going to do what they need to
do to lower rates for that debt refinancing.
That can all be very good for crypto.
And I'm not sure if it's going to be now or well into the future that those
like basketed ETFs really take off.
But when they do, the fact that HBAR is included in those
bodes really well for the Hedera ecosystem as a whole, as long as we can stay in them.
bodes really well for the Hedera ecosystem as a whole, as long as we can stay in them.
You know, we're solidly in both the main indexes that we see those basketed ETFs being based off of,
one of them being the Coinbase 50 and the other one being the CoinDesk 20.
So there's a lot of things going into next year from a fundamental standpoint, whether it's regulatory,
whether it's those rails to get capital into our ecosystem,
all that kind of stuff that kind of tells me that we could see a run. But I don't know which way it's going to go one way or the other. I try to just position myself to take advantage
regardless. But I do think there's plenty of potential.
Yeah, it's about $9 trillion in debt that the States needs to refinance in 26.
So there's definitely plenty of reason to lower the rates.
And looking at Trump, getting a new Fed chair into position will go to exactly the rates that Trump wants to see.
will go to exactly the rates that Trump wants to see.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's...
It seems pretty baked in that the rates in 26 will be quite a bit lower,
especially in the second half.
And with the current inflation numbers being quite low,
it actually allows for some rate cuts as well.
So, yeah, I think it will be pretty
interesting and i'm optimistic so uh does anybody else want to chip in there as well
i agree with all of the above i think that in institutional analysis and development there's
a theory called punctuated equilibrium and i think that we are in the punctuation.
You know, I think we're going to see, I think we're going to see two things. I agree with the bull. I think we're going to see quantitative easing and specifically a really bullish
quantitative easing cycle because with where we are in crypto, with the interest in building stablecoin liquidity,
I think we're going to see huge demand for dollars and dollar equivalents, like the bonds in the treasuries.
So with the increasing demand, I think we're going to see a really exciting cycle in that direction.
But I also think that with everything being formalized the way it is right now, we're going to see a lot of policy and a lot of regulatory culling.
I mean, look at the RICO Act lawsuit now against the Solana Foundation and PumpFun. I mean, that is going to be the craziest news to unfold over the next few months. networks, where you've got, where you have the potential for extraction at the protocol level,
I think, yeah, I think we're going to see a lot of volatility there, a lot of things going to zero.
I think, you know, I think we're going to see a really kind of mixed bag over the next year where,
you know, we see a lot of money flowing in and we also see a lot of things start to implode.
And it should make Hedera shine, that lawsuit.
Oh, 100%.
That's, yeah, I am shocked.
I can't wait to see what else happens.
I mean, it's...
Nick, can you dig a little bit deeper into that?
I've heard it.
I've kind of skimmed over it,
but I don't know the details.
How serious is it?
Because there's been an awful
lot of AI-generated content and accounts that have been posting a lot about it and catching
on to it in X. But because of that, I haven't taken it as seriously as maybe I should have.
Can you just explain it a little further? Yeah. Berwick Law is representing several,
I mean, I don't know who exactly the plaintiffs are, but it can be,
it looks like it's going to be a class action lawsuit of degenerates coming after, and it's
like Jito Labs, the, you know, and the Solana Foundation. And what is, you know, what is
developing now is that like in the, they're expanding discovery because the private chats between the Solana Foundation and the Gito Labs folks, where their data center was being, I guess they were getting really great co-located servers, think with the solana foundation or something something where
their ping was like nothing but they were able to front run essentially everything that was being
released on on uh pump fun and and there was it seems like a pretty well structured and systemic
like extraction scheme going on with that specifically involves
front running so it's it's crazy to see that we've got legal action now taking place because of
like and not just front running but it's like very well structured and intentional like
yeah i mean misleading but also also just straight up extraction yeah, I think it could become a case study and front running,
which is obviously illegal in traditional markets, but is openly accepted in Web3. And that's just
some of the issues we talk about before. Before we can go mainstream on a financial level,
these issues have to be dealt with. I mean, how can we get clear regulation until there's clarity in the courts on some of these peculiar activities of big organizations?
So I was excited to see it because it's been kind of an open secret.
And yet billions of dollars have been extracted from unknowing people.
So like HBAR Hub said, this could be a huge boon for the Hedera ecosystem,
because really I haven't seen anybody who has as elegantly addressed front running
and MEV and stuff like that as Hedera.
There is no one else who addresses it I mean multiverse X has a randomizer
but that can be attacked in another way I really don't know of any other network
I've looked I I can't find one the randomizer fair right that's not fair it
should be yeah sure exactly but even the idea of avoiding MEV leads to other problems.
Hedera is literally the only one where it's technologically impossible, and I love it.
Oh, also, I don't know if you guys can hear me or not, but I've always thought the lawsuits were just inevitable.
I mean, this is the first lawsuit, I think, of many.
Oh, yeah, I agree on that one.
So if it will play out in the way that we still have a major bull market coming with low rates, quantitative easing, enterprises jumping on board. wave another crypto summer um with as much energy as we've seen in 21 for example that
a lot of things will break many um many um entities will probably cross some lines trying to
uh be the first or or or participate while being late in things. So I really see if we
have that scenario, I
really see a lot of things going
wrong and happening that will highlight
Hedera, but I do
believe that we are still in
the bubble phase.
If you will compare it to the dotcom era,
I do believe that we're still in the
bubble phase where
meme coins uh taking up
a lot of liquidity etc so that we still need the bubble to burst and that could very well be in my
opinion in the in that next after that next uh bull phase and i think that's where there will be a lot of reflection and a lot of the um entities and people
and individuals also the retail uh participants that have had their eyes on this space now due
to that bull market will reflect and see hey okay wow uh this and this went wrong i was um
hit by that and hey look at that with Hedera Hashgraph that's not possible they actually
tackled that so I think that after this next cycle is concluded that's where there will be a lot of
reflection and the real value will remain and the real ecosystem builders and then the layer ones that have true value will remain will build
up and after that the we enter a whole new phase of what the DLT sector will
bring to the world just as and more in a more serious way just as with the dot-com
bubble I think we still need to see it burst at some point I don't know what
you guys think about that.
Yeah, I mean, like Clemens said it a long time ago, there's going to be pain and then there's going to be clarity and regulation and legal matters that get rid of a lot of what we thought were going to be brands that were here forever. And then from those ashes, the few will rise.
And yeah, that's why from the beginning, I thought Hedera would still think Hedera will
be one of those, they rises, but I think there's more pain.
I think what we could see, and this is all just guessing, like Brandon said, it's impossible.
It's a guessing game. You can study and learn.
But personally, I think what we'll see is some of these brands that have worked towards, I guess you say, transparency and working with the U.S. government, especially.
You'll start to see some of those break away. I don't think it'll be
across the board off season so much as it'll be a few that kind of break away. I mean,
as much as Bitcoin dictates everything, I still think it's always going to play a role like that.
But you'll see some big movers up and then you'll see some probably go to zero unexpectedly.
Well, expectedly, but for the masses,
unexpectedly, like we didn't see the writing on the wall.
MICHAEL, I see your show unmuted.
Did you want to jump in there or weren't you aware?
I think he's just confident like Joe.
Yeah, exactly. Unmuted through life. Takes a lot of confidence. All right, well, let's touch on Repsol real quick as well.
And then we also have some people on stage that we haven't heard of yet.
Heard from yet, sorry.
So, yeah, Repsol, Brendan, do you want to take this one away?
I've been slacking.
I was running out and working on their stuff.
working on their stuff what's up oh now um this is probably the last topic that that um
What's up?
uh i'm going to directly ask you about after that we'll um uh start wrapping up and toss the mic to
the people that we haven't heard from yet and we also have some nfc launches going on as well
that we want to talk about.
that we uh want to talk about but no um the new council member man repsol
But no, the new council member, man, Repsol.
Oh, absolutely. Huge.
Some of you might know that, you know,
I spent my first part of my career in the oil industry.
So to see an energy major come in is, you know, music to my ears.
And, you know, they're a monster.
And one of the other things that I liked about this was the fact that they're also a member of the Blockchain for Energy Consortium.
So it shows how, you know, dedicated some of those members of B4E are. So it's good to see. Don't know what's going to come out of it, but you know Rob's working pretty hard on them.
They have three key points that they're going to be focusing on, but they're not supposed to be joining the council unless they have use
cases ready to go. And when you're talking about a company with, what, $70 billion worth of annual
revenue, it's certainly a good thing for the Hedera Network. And two other things that are
good. We had blockchain for energy, but this was the first company that has actually joined, um, that is in that energy industry. So that's
good. Plus we didn't have anybody from, from Spain. So, uh, I know that Kabila is, uh, headquartered
there in Spain. So it's good to have representation from, from that region as well.
A hundred percent. Yep. And, um, yeah, they are from Spain and
obviously most of the Kabla team is
there as well
from what I've heard
is that they are
very specific about what they want
to do with the DERA and they're
already looking into
their own
use gates so I yeah I think they will have something live in 2026, definitely.
But don't take my word for it, of course.
But from what I've heard, they've already got their eyes
on exactly what they want to do.
And they're already working on that.
So yeah, excited about that.
Which was one of the new requirements
for someone announcing and thus becoming one of the governing council members. So, you know,
there was a big lag for a while for new council members, but the reality is the standard just
raised. And so, yeah, they've probably been thinking about it for a long time
and planning, but just didn't quite meet the requirements. And now they do. So it's good to
see. It really, I mean, we certainly, I know Rob was expecting a lot more. I think we do have a
good pipeline, but it wasn't too bad. I mean, blockchain for energy arrow, which was early in
the year. I think a lot of people forgot about that they're they're a monster uh and then now um rest ball absolutely good i mean but could have used a
few more but hopefully we'll see it in 2026. definitely all right so uh i'll let you get back to your work, Brandon. Looking forward to your updates from tomorrow.
And yeah, so we actually haven't heard
from Sammich and Scribble yet.
So Scribble, you've been on stage for quite some time.
You joined just after Michael, yeah, after Michael joined.
So how are you doing?
And I think this is your first time on stage, right?
Yes, it is.
Good morning.
I hope everybody's having a great week.
I just wanted to come up and bring some awareness to a new application on Hedera called Scribble.
So if you wouldn't mind, I would love to tell everybody about it.
Yeah, go ahead.
All right, so Scribble is a notepad um it's
fully encrypted notes you can connect your wallet and save the notes to the hashgraph if you want
there's no need to connect your wallet so you can just use it as a regular notepad if you want but
if you did want to you can save your notes to the graph um it's free to use without connecting to
the graph so there's uh it's like free if if you do save to the graph there's a small fee it's free to use without connecting to the graph so there's uh it's like free if if
you do save to the graph there's a small fee it's just a few cents like a i don't know exactly
because it's a moving range but it's just a few cents a fee to save to the graph um so if you have
your wallet connected to scribble then you can see in your notes which notes you have saved to the
graph um yeah so this
is my first project it's finally finished i'm just really excited to get it out there i wanted to
shout out dave he actually helped me get the wallet connect and everything finished with this
so uh i do have another project on hedera called hbuds i don't know if you guys recognize my voice
but this was my first project that i was working on. So, yeah, I had no foundation support, no crowdfunding.
It was all out of pocket.
So I'd love for you guys to check it out.
Yeah, any feedback would be great.
It's live now at xrb.app.
Yes, any feedback I would be grateful for.
Thank you, guys.
Cool.
My immediate thought was, for instance, employees who have an idea, who they tell their boss, but then the boss takes the idea.
happening so i mean if you uh if you want to put some sort of advertisement or you know have ai
put together a little advertisement might be a good uh pain point provider there to show people
the value of it yeah absolutely i've been working on doing some ads and stuff like that i have one
up on the uh on the profile right now i think's against my pin post but that was before hefty ever
got a hold of it and before it was finished so you couldn't save the notes or anything i need to make
some new screen recordings and stuff like that today's the first day that it's been live so i
was just excited to go up here and talk about it um it wasn't the developing for like a while i've
been working on this for about a year so but yeah i just wanted to come up and raise awareness the
like the ideas like you said that was one of the use cases.
There's a lot of use cases that people could use for this.
I mean, yeah, but thinking of ideas, time stamping your ideas,
stuff like that is definitely one of the main ones.
Yeah, if anybody has any questions, feel free to ask.
Yeah, it seems very suitable for new coming
authors and things like that
as well. So cool. Feel
free to pin something up on the Megaboard
or on the Jumbotron
as people actually navigate
to the application.
I will
say that I've lost all kinds
of things on my computer, even
though I try to back up and
all that kind of stuff you know sometimes it doesn't work out so this is a certainly another
layer of protection if you want to go that route yeah my goal is to have this live inside of the
hash pack as adapt so that you can just easily go to your hash pack if you have a note or an idea or
say that you have like you know you bought at this price you just want to
stamp it or whatever however you want to use it you know it's just a notepad app i i'm a musician
so i originally made this app just for myself to store like i was just learning to develop and
stuff like that and i wanted to store my lyrics and like make my own lyric thing and then i was
you know in hedera just as an investor i didn't even know about the crypto twitter or anything
and i just had the idea i was't even know about the crypto twitter or anything
and i just had the idea i was like it'd be cool if i could store these notes on a blockchain of
some sort and it ended up being a hash graph but yeah very stoked for it to be out and like
like i said huge shout out to dave hefty because it wouldn't have been possible without him i got
it almost to the finish line and then he crossed it for me so thank you dave awesome dave did you want to add anything to that
um yeah i he he did an awesome job it's uh it's basically comparable to like the iphone's note
app um we use hedera file service to save it. As he mentioned, it's encrypted.
It gets decrypted against your keys of your wallet. But yeah, it's like a seven cent fee
we charge. The price changes based on HBAR, but the fee is the same. We're aware that file service
price may change and things like that. So it may be a little dynamic. But yeah, it's like two cents
more than whatever the file service in HBAR,
but it's really straightforward.
Definitely check it out.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
And for that seven cents,
how much can you save using the file service?
It has been a month or so since I worked on it.
He was on tour, so I don't remember offhand,
but it's effectively whatever
the Hedera file service limitation is, you know, we mimic that.
So whatever their size limits are, you know, you'll be able to save it in the app.
Yeah, and I had had some questions when I talked about this last night in the space.
Right now it is only notes, but I would like to, in the future, you know know expand it to other things photos and stuff like
that but right now it is just a notepad just to clarify that I didn't quite catch that um you want
to expand too uh expand uh just the notepad it's just you can only save notes like you can't save
photos or um files or anything in the notepad yet,
but eventually that was kind of the goal.
I had people asking me if they could, so I just wanted to clarify that.
And just to give everybody a heads up, it's about 1 meg.
But yeah, it's pretty straightforward.
I mean, there's no fees or anything aside from if you wanted to save to the graph.
Other than that, it's a free app.
So yeah, I just kind of wanted to, you know, bring awareness to it.
If anybody has any questions or anything after they use it or if they find any, if they can break it, you know, just message me, message Dave, let us know because it is a new app,
but very excited about it. Like I said, I don't think there's anything
quite like this app, so
pretty stoked.
Awesome, man.
I'll definitely check it out.
And thanks for sharing it up here.
And yeah, feel free to join
again, or I wanted to say next week
which is Christmas, so next year
to share any
updates or developments
or maybe feedback you've gotten.
So, yeah, that being said,
I think we're down to the last minutes of this space.
Unless anybody has anything to ask or share,
feel free to put it in the comments or come up.
But we do have JustPSP Art, the pixel art minting today.
ADA pieces starting in an hour and 20 minutes.
And also, let's see.
Okay, in four days from now,
Ekwa is actually minting his spirits of Ayahuasca.
So that's pretty cool as well.
And we've got the Christmas stockings coming.
So that will be a free mint.
And then you can win some prizes.
And we did have a sellout yesterday.
Santuario Hedera.
It's a Spanish project by Guille, my colleague,
who's doing the Spanish community side for Kabila,
he made out 400 Dragon PFPs.
Pretty cool.
Almost for free, but more as a fun thing to do in the December months.
So most of them were meant for free.
Some of them for two, three bucks.
So stuff is happening.
And since we've got one of these creators on stage,
and Ekwa, you've been co-hosting this place for a very long time.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the mint that will be arriving in four days,
the Spirits of Ayahuasca?
Oh, hell yeah.
Thank you so much, Niu.
Yeah, with pleasure, man.
I've been working on this for the last four months now uh
333 pieces all uh multi-file nfts with a png as well as an mp4 file in there um yeah I'll pin
I'll pin something up to the megaboard as well but yeah really excited for this. The public mint price is $88HBAR, which is like $9.5 right now.
And the wireless mint price is at a 12.5% discount. And if you hold any of the previous
collections from Psych Terra, you get a 25% discount on the mint. So yeah, I'm really excited
for it. I have tried to price it really nominally so a lot of people can get into the action.
The supply is also only $333 on this Mint.
I'm really excited about the multi-file access, the multi-file concept of it because the videos have come in really really clean it's much better than what i expected i put up i put up a thread
with the artwork and the vision on the megaboard and i also put up a giveaway that kabila is hosting
giving out 10 whitelists for this mint that is embedded with the promo video for the collection
so yeah i'll definitely encourage you all to bookmark it check it out show
some love to the posts up there yeah because yeah just check it out if you
vibe with the artwork if you vibe with the concept then I'll definitely
encourage you all to get minting on Monday so we're gonna be launching the
mint goes live at 2 p.m. Eastern on 22nd of December.
There's a white list discount and there is a token gated discount if you hold any of our previous collections.
But there's not going to be a presale.
So the Mint goes public at the same time.
You'll just be able to get a discounted Mint when you log into the launch the launchpad uh yeah so yeah that's all from my
end there's a few wireless giveaways going on for sure if you don't hold any of our nfts from the
previous collection i'll encourage you all to get into those i think abila has one active uh fat boy
has one active and wild tigers they have a wireless giveaway active as well.
Yeah, so five wireless being given away on the wild tigers post and 10 being given away on the Kabila post.
So, yeah, I encourage you all to get in, but do check out the video and do check out the artwork. So you kind of get the feel of the collection and what we are working with.
And yeah, if you vibe with the artwork, definitely get involved.
One thing I'd like to say, the real world utility that we are providing, and I know
a couple people are definitely gunning for this.
If you mint 30 from the collection, like 3-0 from the collection, we're going to custom
print one of your favorite NFTs from your picks.
We're going to custom print it on a hoodie and we're going to ship it to you free of cost.
You're going to receive it at your doorstep
so you can see your favorite piece of artwork
on an article of clothing.
Worked with a manufacturer over here
to really make premium quality, good material hoodies.
So you can customize the color on it.
You can customize where your nft gets
printed and yeah and we're going to cover the shipping for that as well no matter where you live
in the world as long as you're on earth we're going to cover the shipping uh yeah so excited
excited to have those out as well um and yeah thankiu, for the shout-out. Awesome, man.
Looking forward to the mint.
And yeah, Samrich, go ahead.
Oh, sorry about that.
I was over here talking muted.
I just wanted to very quickly let everyone know that Slime,
my project is doing kind of like a Christmas bounty hunt,
I guess you would
say um but there's like 150 worth of prizes there's uh some hbar.h there's some gib there's
a whole bunch of entities and cool stuff um if you happen to hold the slime you know you get one for
free but it's a two dollar mint um we're doing it tomorrow it'll be on centex so if anyone is
interested feel free to check that out very nice for the few minutes that remain feel free to check that out. Very nice.
For the few minutes that remain,
feel free to put it up on the Megabore.
Although it won't be of much use
because we'll be closing down the space in a bit.
But yeah, is there anyone who has some closing thoughts?
Now's the time.
Quickly jump in. If you want things to stay around since it's a recorded space, put it in the time. Quickly jump in.
If you want things to stay around since it's a recorded space,
put it in the comments.
The comments always stay on,
even in the recorded space when people are listening back to it.
Also, I think the Angry Aliens, the project by Monster,
they're minting on Cabela right now.
If you vibe with that artwork and what he's doing, do check it out.
And yeah, I'm super excited for the GIST PFP pixel art mint dude only 88 of those that's super super
exciting I'm really looking forward to it let's see I hope people show up I
think that's gonna be a very quick sellout because all the holders are
right listed and they get a discount so So yeah, that's going to be a first come first serve mint.
So be there.
I think that's going live at 2 p.m. Eastern as well, right?
Like in one hour, 14 minutes from now.
So be there, y'all.
Yeah, exciting times.
I'm super, super pumped for it.
I love it.
All right.
Well, we didn't have any specific theme today,
but we cracked on for almost two hours.
So I think it was worth the last space of the year.
And as we should,
we talked a lot about Hedera HBAR on the retail side.
It's been a little bit quieter these past weeks,
but we've had plenty to talk about today.
So thank you all for tuning in, for chiming in, sharing your thoughts, your ideas, and asking your questions.
Michael, I see you're still down there, so it was great having you up here, asking some questions to the guys.
That goes for anybody.
Feel free to do so at any point during the space.
So, yeah, I wish you all a great rest of the day and rest of the week, but mostly happy holidays,
spend some time with your family and friends, have a great, yeah, how do you say it is a great new year's eve no that's not that's not the word help me out uh
brandon how do you generally say that merry merry christmas and and have a happy new year how about
that yeah all right that's quite simple but yeah merry christmas and have a happy new year see you
guys next year well i'll see you guys on the timeline but not in this space the first one will be next year um i'm not sure if we'll do the first of january though because that's the first thursday of the
year um what do you guys think yeah everybody's gonna be home yeah yeah everybody's got a little
bit hungover bro that's the best time to do it yep you'll have you'll have a bigger audience then than you could imagine
all right well as long as um it's only a little bit hungover then i want to see you
you made a claim that you you will be hungover on the first so we want to see you host a space
when you're doing that bro well i mean uh next year with new year Year's, we'll have a baby. So, yeah, I'll be going out with some friends this year.
That's for sure.
So we'll see.
Anyway, see you guys next year.
Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year.
Ekwa, I think we're ready for that outro.
And if you guys want to, I don't know, where's the audience?
Happy New Year as well. Feel free to do so. And after know where's where's the the audience happy new year as well feel free
to do so and after that we'll close down the space hell yeah yeah uh happy holidays y'all
enjoy yourselves spend some time with the family touch some grass don't party too hard you know
but yeah peace out um we'll see you soon. Take care. Thank you.
Insights
Project L
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