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Hedera Joins NATO?! Wen Alt Season? AGI vs ASI
Recorded: Dec. 22, 2025 Duration: 0:58:59Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent Hedera Roundtable, participants discussed significant developments including Neuron's partnership with NATO, the ongoing trend of news fatigue affecting market sentiment, and the potential for AI integration in crypto. Despite current bearish conditions, the Hedera ecosystem shows signs of growth with increasing transaction volumes and innovative applications on the horizon.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. What is up? What is up, guys?
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon.
Welcome back to another Hedera Roundtable here with Wolf Crypto.
It's been a bit, do we?
I know we skipped last week.
I think it was due
to some holidays maybe or the week before. All the days are kind of blurring together, guys.
But I know we're back at it right before Christmas here. Lots of amazing stuff happening
in the space here. But to kick things off, I'll go ahead and throw it to my co-host,
Nat. Now I'm going to throw you that co-host invite. How are you feeling this morning?
Doing well, guys. i know we may oh no
dude spaces are on a rampage right now just booted nat off no
joe how's it going man i'm gonna throw it to you instead
i'm i'm great i hope I don't boot myself off.
I got trapped doing the holiday errands and on another call,
so I'm in the car, but I should be good.
I'm in the city, so hopefully you can hear me and I don't lose signal.
Oh, yeah, no, I feel that. We got Nat back here.
I think i'm wrong
oh my god that was that was funny what happened did you like drop your phone or something
no i i think x booted me i have to restart the app i'm sorry guys but i was saying that i think
you guys were when i we missed last week's space because i saw that you guys were in puerto rico
with and i saw that's what it was yeah yeah i saw kade posted a beautiful picture and i hope you guys had an amazing time
right not nothing nothing better than working and you know in in the caribbean with some nice sun
some beach some nice sand and i hope you guys really did have an amazing time but no there's
a lot going on in the hedera ecosystem a lot of big news within in hedera even like the meme coins
are starting to move man it's
been a wild moment it's been it's been beautiful to see hiveta taking off like this and i'm excited
to dive into this with you today william is awesome awesome yeah i um man dude what uh
i've been seeing news left and right throughout the space bullish news and the tokens just keep
going down down down down down it's's great. It's like the more bullish
the piece of news is, the worse the price action is. That's exactly how I feel right now. I think
that's exactly what we're seeing. But there was this piece of bullish news that I've been seeing
where we had Neuron, which I did invite up on the page here, the space here a bit ago. I'm hoping
they are able to accept soon. But they actually are collaborating with NATO
now as a part of Project Diana
in 2026, which I thought was pretty crazy.
So NATO now is in the Hedera
ecosystem, guys. I would love to get your guys' thoughts. I don't know if you guys saw all that.
Anyone?
Anyone's up to bat there? We've got Hashgraph going up for it.
Go ahead, John. anyone anyone's up to bat there we got hashgraph going up for it yeah go ahead
i'm kind of some of my friends and i are talking like we have some of the greatest
news and announcements and partnerships that have been they just keep coming and coming and coming. And we have great news fatigue in Hedera retail
because it doesn't stop and it's always positive.
And you see some other things that will go on a 80, 100, 300% run
because some silly influencer bought the token.
And we have actual global government, country, banking, use cases and announcements, and
the price goes down.
So I took the last three days, I didn't open a wallet. I didn't check price
because I'm done worrying about it. It's so ridiculous how misplaced attention is
in Web3. And I don't sweat it because Hedera will get the attention from where it needs to come from.
And for people that aren't here to degen, and I'm a degen, so I can say that.
I can talk about myself.
I just look forward to the day when actual use case and actual reasons to hold on to something, they mean price goes up. And right now, it's still not to that
point. Joe, have you gotten into some of the meme coin action on Hedera? Because a lot of them,
since you mentioned you're a DJ, some of them have to be. We've got a fourth biggest meme.
I hope you hold some SPACUM. If not, everybody needs to get some um our tokenomics are unbelievable and we're
active every day um yeah we all love we all love gib um i'm a huge gib fan we're partnered with most
most of the memes um but i don't shill we've been in a lot of spaces together, Matt. I'm not a person that shills my own project. Chill.
But it's time.
It's time.
I've been here for four years.
My team's been here building Earthlings and Smack'Em, and we're partnered with Hashpack and Syntax for people not to be giving us the same attention that other tokens get.
It blows my mind.
And that's my end of my shell.
If people need to go pay attention and should hold some smack.
Now, well, with regards to Hedera price action, and I'll say this just real quick, William,
but at the end of the day, it is still an alt, right? So we're seeing a lot of alts doing amazing, great things, right?
And the price isn't moving,
the price is going down.
Even with like Bitcoin itself, right?
We're seeing a lot of things
on the infrastructure
and on the macro front
and Bitcoin prices
hasn't made any new highs recently, right?
So I think it's two things, right?
One, Federa being an alt
and two, the current state of crypto.
But all in due time, right?
Things will come back around and
in no time you'll see all of these things starting to really matter and playing into the price the
price is the last thing that moves not the first yeah i guess my question then on that is kind of
like why do you guys think that is i mean is this a is this a matter of like people not paying
attention or is this just a matter of like not paying attention or is this just a matter of maybe the fundamentals aren't necessarily aligned with current market dynamics?
I'm just curious to get your guys' thoughts because I have my own views, but I would love to hear your guys' thoughts.
Yeah, so for me, go ahead, Joe.
Go ahead, Joe.
I think he was going to speak.
I think you muted again, bud.
You pressed the mute button again, Joe.
Yeah, it's fine.
I think for me, it has to do...
Yeah, it muted so not to go.
Thank you, Joe.
Too much politeness.
Stop being so polite, damn it.
I think for me, it really does have to do with the current state of crypto and the lack of all season, right?
I think with crypto, it's like that.
We see that sometimes, too, in the stock I think with crypto, it's like that. We see that sometimes too in the stock market,
but crypto, it's more apparent.
When there's a current state of the market
or current structure within the cryptocurrency market,
news doesn't really affect it as much, right?
Especially if, let's say, for example,
we are going to enter a bear market,
you can have all the bullish news in the world
and they won't move the price.
And we're seeing that across the board. So this is not Hedera specific. However, I think the
opposite is also true. When we are going to enter an insane bull market, any news piece, anything
will move the needle massively. We've seen that in previous bull cycles, when someone would just
mention Hedera on the time, Hedera would, right? But now because of the current state of the market and the way things are right now,
I think with regards to how bullish the news may seem, it's really not going to
affect the price as much until we get to a phase in the market where we're a little more bullish.
Yeah, I could see that. I mean, I think, honestly, me personally,
I just think that there's just right now
the capital environment itself,
like macro-wise and the macroeconomics
and everything just aren't the best.
Things aren't looking good.
Retail is not really participating,
especially in crypto,
and they've kind of backed out of the markets altogether.
Not all together, I would say. Their participation is the highest it's ever been ever. I think it's
like 20-30% now in the stock market. But just in this current part of the cycle that we're in,
it's the lowest it's been, I think, all year. But it's really hard to tell really why these
dramatic drops are happening, especially since Octoberober 10th that massive liquidation event we really have seen this sentiment hit a rock bottom like i i think i've
never seen the fear and greed index hang out in the 20s like this for so long like i just like
this yeah so many moving pieces in the macro front right all countries are doing something
everything's moving on at the same time it's like a big a big bowl of uh i i don't want to i don't want to say but it's like a big bowl of you know
yes yes yes so no no it's like it adds a layer of uncertainty across the board yeah yeah go for it
yeah i was talking to i was talking to phil from hashback this morning um we
had a quick call we tried to catch up on mondays and um he was going to be here but he's got a
event for his daughter's uh gymnastics team i think it is so uh but we were talking
and and right now i feel like um i've always been like, hey, Hedera needs to focus on retail.
The enterprise is coming.
But I think it just feels to me like the whole world's waiting on a couple of things.
One is clarity.
We definitely, you know, governments can say, oh, you're going to be safe with your crypto.
But until something actually goes through and we get that true clarity,
we're going to just have kind of a stalemate.
But the other to me is whether it's on XRP or Hedera or somewhere else,
we need that mega use case where a corporation or a government
actually takes what they're building and puts it into play where, you know, four or five million customers are using a Web3 product, actually takes place where they're doing actual settlement, not plans to, but actually doing it where everything's being settled. 17 million transactions settled on Hedera this morning. And everybody's using it and don't even
know it. And those are coming. But I think something like that needs to break rather than
politicians launching meme coins and promising that our wallets are going to be safe. I think
that's what it's going to take.
And it's funny you say clarity because it's like,
from my point of view, there's never been more clarity than we've ever had.
Like in terms of, you know, institutions wanting to get in.
Granted, like legally speaking, like, you know, legislatively,
there's not much in writing there,
which is definitely something I think is hindering a lot of market participation
from a lot more players. But when things like the Clarity Act get passed, I think it's just a
massive indicator of, hey, these markets are real. There's a real way to participate. There's
a legal way to get in now. And now these institutions can go hog wild and just kind of
go guns blazing because I just feel like it's all kind of lined up for that um and it's interesting because like like we were talking about we've had such terrible terrible like
terrible price action and i mean like again the worst i've seen the worst sentiment i've seen but
i think it's because the institutions are already in to a degree and like these massive players are
in the space that we have this bid we kind of have this like nice bid kind of cushioning us
because i guarantee oh i almost guarantee at least that if we didn't have
these institutional players in here right after October 10th, that massive liquidation event,
like which is one, the worst we've ever seen in crypto. But after that event, you know,
we would have been seeing much lower prices for Bitcoin as well as alts, I feel like. I mean,
I could see easily see Bitcoin falling to like 50 or 40K just from that event alone
if there wasn't companies like BlackRock and Wells Fargo and buying Bitcoin actively.
So it's very interesting that we're in the area we're at, but it's just like, again,
sentiment is just not reflecting that.
Yeah, there is kind of a change in sentiment.
Retail sentiment is down, but I think you're right. I think the big money is giving helping keep everything down, too. I believe
had experience, Patrick's in here from Earthlings. We've had experience from market makers when,
I don't know if everybody remembers, a couple years ago or if it was 24, when people from the
exchanges were being arrested and demanding that some of the market makers
would manipulate and control price. And I still think there's a lot of that going on.
And not everywhere, but kind of across the board. That's one of my conspiracies, too,
across the board. That's one of my
conspiracies too, is to keep in the
fear
number so low.
I have
a love for conspiracy
theories, so I'm happy you brought that up. I was actually
going to throw it to Earthlings as I saw them reacting, but I see
the hand up now. But then after Earthlings, I do want to
bring Hashgraph and Kabila
into the conversation as well. But go ahead, Earthlings.
I love conspiracy theories as well.
Come on, if you are still not siding with conspiracy theories then you've been blind for the last two
years it's it's been the years of the one years of conspiracies coming through every month i love it
so but that's i i think a lot of people in crypto are really, have their eyes a bit more open than other people.
I don't know.
So, but I side with what Joey said there as well.
Let's see.
What did I actually want to say?
Oh, yeah.
You mentioned BlackRock.
So, yeah, BlackRock.
Aren't those guys that tell everyone, that told everyone for years not to buy Bitcoin because it's a scam and blah, blah, blah, while filling up their bags.
So that's not a conspiracy for you.
So I do think, indeed, they are filling their bags as much as possible and still telling.
It changed this year, didn't it?
Now all these big guys are saying, yeah, yeah, well, actually, Bitcoin is digital gold.
It is good for your bags.
But still a lot of manipulation out there, I think.
So you take it over again, Joey, because this is really more your kind of stuff.
But first, the other speakers, sorry for that.
No, you're fine.
I love that you said that.
You know, it's interesting what BlackRock is.
And Larry Fink was on a panel recently about how, I think it was Andrew Sorkin, or what's his name?
I think it's Andrew Ross Sorkin or something.
It might be his full name, but Sorkin, I'm just going to call him.
He's a really big correspondent on CNBC.
I would say he's not like pro-crypto, but he's like kind of anti-crypto.
He's kind of like in the middle of the aisle there.
in the middle of the aisle there um he hadn't heard many i haven't heard much like negative
I haven't heard much negative rhetoric from him.
rhetoric from him but anyways he was talking to larry fink and he was like hey so like just you
know seven years ago you you called bitcoin like the greatest money laundering you know platform
ever um and larry fink was like yeah you know like opinions change like we're all human you know he's
like so my my thought on bitcoin was you know one, one thing. And I did. I learned more and my analyst brought me more information and I changed my mind.
And I was like, that's a very humble way to answer that.
You know, it's a very correct way to answer that, I feel like.
I mean, that's that's true for a lot of people in the world.
But funny enough, you know, there's a lot of institutions that right now, like you just said, Earthlings are buying.
They're the smart money is buying right now.
Like, that's the thing is they see these lower prices and they say, oh, this is a great price to get in at, or this is a great price to start accumulating
these assets at. And so I think things like Hedera and these other major altcoins up there
are just kind of, I wouldn't say not guaranteed, but it's almost inevitable that they'll be added
to these bags eventually, especially when things
like the Clarity Act are added or kind of, you know, penciled in finally. Nat, I see your hand,
I'm going to throw it to you, but I do want to hear from Hashgraph next and then we'll go to
Kabila. Yes, I just wanted to say that was actually a great point. Like we see it in the
equity side. We've been seeing it for years, right? Whenever there's a group of companies or hedge funds or big investors trying
to get in into a particular asset, it doesn't really move until, you know, all you could quote
unquote say until all of the buying is done, right? So I think one key factor with investing
to remember, right, is that you want to accumulate or buy at a discounted period, right? Or at a
discounted price, right? Not at a discounted price, right?
Not while everything is going crazy.
And I feel like that's a difference with a crypto trader or retail investors, right?
Everyone gets excited to buy the green candles when in reality, we should be excited to buy
the red candles.
And the other thing I wanted to mention, and we can hand it off, is Michael Saylor.
I know you guys have seen that
tweet over and over
on Twitter right when he
didn't really like Bitcoin he didn't believe in Bitcoin he thought
his days were numbered and then he recently
came out and said I believe it was on I forgot
who made the post and Michael
Saylor actually responded
to it and he said big mistake so
just like Larry Frank he's also
owning up to him being wrong
about Bitcoin. So I thought that was very interesting there. Yeah, I mean, that's the
whole thing, right? With a lot of stuff in crypto, I feel like is like people just inherently have
this negative view of it. And, you know, rightfully so to a degree, there's been a lot of
stuff, like a lot of like, you know, bad actors and fraud that's happened in this space. But I feel like when people learn about the underlying technology, they go, oh, wait a minute,
like there's like something here or like they learn about a different use case for it.
Just like how Hedera, you know, is like joining NATO now.
Everyone's like, oh, like kind of turning around, you know, going like, what's going on there?
I do want to throw it to Hashgraph to talk about how they're, I guess, Hashgraph,
you're building for NATO now, right? You're going to be building products for NATO. Is that what's happening next?
No, not at all. But, you know, Neuron is actually one of the members of Hashgraph Online DAO.
We are a DAO-led consortium and our members include some of the biggest ecosystem players like Neuron and
Hashpuck and we're really excited for Neuron. James has been working incredibly incredibly
hard. If you've ever seen James pitch at an event it's something to witness. I think
he also back during Hedericom I think he compressed the entire life cycle of Neuron in a five minute pitch.
And that was just very cool.
I think, you know, markets will always behave as markets will at the end of the day.
I think that, as Nat Nat said quite eloquently, we should be buying the red candles, right?
If we are excited about this stuff
and we see a future in it.
But at the same time,
the number on the token
is a lot less important
than what we're doing with the technology.
On our end, we're very excited
on how Hedera can be used for AI.
And I think we've done a great job at Hashgraph Online
in cementing the idea of Hederax AI.
Since every Thursday, we run one of the most successful spaces
related to AI that gets 300 plus listeners on a weekly basis.
And this morning, we announced that we're partnering with Scale,
who's building private AI interactions, and we've indexed their agents on the Hashware insert niche, but it's really just about how can we get people to actually use this technology?
I mean, as you mentioned earlier, retail has been kind of stepping back.
There's a few large pressing issues at the top of my mind.
Like, number one, we've minted millions of different kinds of stable coins.
And now we've got similar problems that Curve had tried to solve in the last DeFi ecosystem
when there was maybe three different major stable coin providers.
Now we have hundreds, probably millions down the line.
And that creates fragmentation for the ecosystem.
And probably the worst thing is on the DeFi side, right?
If you, when you fragment the liquidity into so many different pools,
you reduce opportunity for yield in these pools, which is a big issue, right?
And it makes me wonder is like, okay, okay, how can we fix these things, number one?
And number two, how does Hedera factor into these?
And number three, how can we make this really stupid simple
for people through AI agents as we change the UX interface
for how we're interacting with these networks?
I mean, the writing is on the wall that soon,
most of our Web3 interactions will be through
a chat interface versus using some kind of a wallet.
And we're really excited to see how that can work.
And it partly, it can only really work
in high throughput ecosystems where the transaction fees
are less than a penny per interaction.
And you've got the flexibility of a network that could do very cool things.
Like, for example, Hedera recently launched Hooks,
which you can't do a lot with Hooks yet,
but soon you'll be able to tie them back into a multitude of things
and make Hedera as an ecosystem very very unique especially for agents so is that like
the eventuality then that you see is that we'll be interacting with i mean not even just chains
but just like the the whole the entire digital landscape like through a chatbot or like through
through an agent yeah i mean we saw a few weeks ago now that the SEC authorized PNC, BitGo, and a handful
of other banks to custody Bitcoin, right? That's step number one. And if anyone is paying attention
or has ever looked at how the fintech industry operates or how neobanks operate, the next obvious
step is that somebody will launch a neobank that's licensed
through PNC or Bitco, one of the initial providers. And they'll basically have an experience where
you've got whatever amount of USD you've put in your bank, and you're just talking to an agent
inside the bank. And you're like, okay, what can I do with this, with my $1,000 or $2,000 that I have lying around? And the agent has no
bag bias at all. It will take your money, custody it, turn it into some crypto, and then move it
around through various DeFi protocols, right? And at that point, the user is completely abstracted
from wallets, DeFi, private keys, and all of that. Really, once banks have gotten the green light
to custody these assets,
I think there is an obvious road
to actually using the underlying protocols.
And when these agents are using these protocols,
they're not going to say,
okay, I'm only going to use this protocol
because it's associated with XYZ ecosystem.
No, unless the user puts that in,
they specifically don't want to use a certain ecosystem.
Most likely what would happen is the agent will say,
okay, this is the protocol that has the highest yield.
This is the protocol with the cheapest fees
and the fastest transactions.
And this is where it could potentially make the most yield
for my user, right?
And that is, I think, the future that we should all be shooting for.
Not because we're bullish on AI,
but because from a user experience perspective,
just think about how great that would be.
Yeah, it's kind of like where we're at with vibe coding now, right?
Where people are starting to breathe apps and websites into life
through just conversation as opposed to actually learning.
I mean, granted, it helps to know some underlying code for sure.
But I mean, the fact you're able to build basic things,
like basic applications with vibe coding kind of pays to that.
I mean, it kind of shows that, hey, listen, this is inevitably
going to be what the future is like, except your AI agent is going to be like even more
automated than you manually typing in Vibe coding, you know, like into the chat pot there.
So thank you so much, man. Kabilla, I want to bring you into the conversation as well.
I know you guys have been cooking. I mean, heck, heck all of hedera has been cooking guys it's it's been it's been awesome to see the ecosystem grow uh from from the over here on the wolf
sidelines if i if i will if i will say there but kabila go for i'm gonna throw it to you
hey guys yeah thanks for hosting the space again can you hear me well
loud and clear sir you're sounding beautiful okay great i'm in the car again so usually around this
time on mondays i'm in the car so um just checking connection but um yeah no before i uh give my
personal thoughts on the market etc i actually i'm curious um after everything michael just um
shared what what his um view is for for in this future,
what the role for wallet providers,
marketplaces, etc., as we have
them now, what their role
would be in the future like that. I'm actually
keen to hear more about that
before anything else.
Maybe that's alright with you?
No, completely.
Please, Michael, go for it.
Yeah, I think that, and this is just for anyone that's paying attention to AI, everything is moving towards agents.
This is just the natural progression.
And there's a good reason why OpenAI is starting to decimate some of the traffic that Google used to get, right?
Because users, they would used to go on Google and they would ask, what's the best credit card that I can get with the highest APY?
And now what they do is they go to ChatGPT and they ask that same question.
I know this because I used to work for a company called Finder.com, which was like the Australian version of nerd wallet is 100 million dollar annual business, very, very successful.
And companies like these are struggling now because their lunch is being taken by these large language model providers for decentralized. For the decentralized ecosystem, it hasn't caught up yet,
but it's going to catch up quite fast
where users will be able to interact
through these chat interfaces
and they'll be able to do all the same things
that you can do by going into a D app.
And my recommendation is a lot of areas to this problem
that we all need to solve collectively,
especially if we don't want our lunch to be in.
Number one, I think anyone that's creating a decentralized app
should also be working on creating an agent version
of their decentralized app.
So anything that you can do in your DAP,
it should be possible by doing it
through a native chat interface.
Recently, HGraph launched HGraph.ai,
which is a great example of this, where now you can talk to the HGraph launched HGraph.ai, which is a great example of this, where now you
can talk to the HGraph agent and get all the data that you would want from the network in Hedera
through a really nice agentic interface. I see this moving forward to every single part of the
ecosystem, if that's NFTs, DeFi, etc it'll probably happen through an agent that is facilitating interactions
through smart contracts or their dlt like technologies as a whole so that's really
important the second thing that's really important is with large language models i think there's a
huge risk to many small businesses uh and startups so forth, because a large language model that has a significant mode and market share can replace a whole vertical section of AI by just pushing that capability into their model layer.
Right. The case in point is you're looking for credit cards and so forth.
And now large language models have
replaced those business verticals entirely. We are really cognizant of the impact of this
and we're also really cognizant of the progress that's being made with small language models
on the research side especially for those who don't know, the difference between a large language model and a small language model is that a large language model requires significant computational resources.
You're talking in sometimes in the hundreds of thousands with GPE requirements to run something
like open AIs or anthropic system, arguably much, much more than that. And a small language model is something that you can run
on your phone or your computer.
And the developments here are growing exponentially.
There's, for example, the Liquid Nanos models
can now do native translation on your phones
and you can run it on an iPhone and an Android,
which is great because the GPU on these devices
is quite low. As small language models get better and better, everyone will have access to them.
And hopefully, instead of a situation where you have one big provider that we do inference
through, these models will ship natively on our phones and our laptops, and we'll be able
to launch our own agents through these devices or services
so that you have a wide breadth of businesses
that can basically operate on an agentic model
versus being forced to distribute
through these large language models
who can arguably just take your lunch
whenever they want to.
Boom, I'm ending the space right there on that one that's a i was about to say that's like a
great way to end it right that'd be awesome uh i saw joe's hand up uh michael thank you so much
for that go for it yeah michael that's it's brilliant and my first personal big use case for
um ai was exactly what you said but um for anyone that has the credit to be able to
shop whatever credit card you want, if you're not thriving off of these rewards programs,
you're doing yourself a disservice. And my family does. Like credit rewards is one of our biggest
things. And it was always a pain in the past when rewards programs would come out and I'd have to create spreadsheets and do our budget and figure out where to spend and which card to get. ask about programs, put in our personal expenditures, and within an hour, I had results on what I would
get in rewards from one card versus the other, and if I had multiple cards where the expenditures
should go, and it saved me possibly, you know, fractions of days in headache and solved all of my issues and gave me a beautiful result in an hour.
And I really felt like it's unbiased and it's worked out really well.
So that's a perfect, perfect use case.
And it's changed our habits and how we chase rewards from these programs.
Thank you, Joe.
Yeah, I actually want to – I hate to put you on – I don't hate to, actually.
I actually really enjoy doing this, but I'm going to put you in the spotlight, Michael.
I just reviewed your page, and I saw you guys released the Points Portal.
I would love for you to explain that.
I don't know if we covered that last time.
It looks like it came out on December 5th.
So I don't know if we've had a space since then or an airspace since then.
But if you want to go over it, man, by all means.
Yeah, that would be great.
I would put it on the Jumbotron.
But the Android app on X has been awful.
You're watching Android, Michael? What the heck, dog? I can put it up the Jumbotron, but the Android app on X has been awful. I can't. You're watching Android, Michael?
What the heck, dog?
I can put it up, Michael.
I got it.
Yeah, the X app on Android is awful.
It's gotten so bad.
So H1Appoints is something that we launched earlier this month,
and it is something that we launched earlier this month and it is
something that we plan to keep going for a long time if possible. Essentially it
is a way for you to join the Hashgraph Online leaderboard with your
contributions in the Hedera ecosystem. And when we launched HLO points,
we didn't really know how wide our impact was
in the Hedera ecosystem.
We thought that, hey, maybe there would probably be
like 500 accounts that would show up here.
And as of today, there's 7,400 plus accounts
and 10 million issued points already.
And the way that people get points is by actually utilizing
our open source standards that we've created.
So for example, like hash channels, HCS 20 points,
agents, agent communication, agent profiles,
and human profiles and so forth.
So anytime you generate a transaction using these
specifications, then you gain points on your account. If you've ever bought or sold hashinals,
you also get points or minted them as well. So we were really impressed when we went live and
it was like seven, you know, first it was like 2000, like, okay, 3000. I was like, okay, we have
to pinch ourselves here.
There must be some kind of an issue with how we're indexing this data.
And then we dug into it and we're like, wow,
there are really just so many people who are using this stuff.
And we didn't know about it, which is kind of the best part,
because every day now I'll find out about like a new use case
for someone using on-chain inscriptions HCS1 for file storage.
Like I found out yesterday somebody's creating a comic book platform using HCS1, which is very, very cool.
But Points Portal is live now.
You can go to hfol.org to sign up.
And when you sign up, there's also a referral system
so the folks who have a big network you will probably be interested in this because
every person that you refer you get 10 of their points in perpetuity so they complete an action
they inscribe something they trade something after they signed up, you get 10% of their points as well.
And that's not all.
We want to create one of the largest decentralized open source ecosystems
at Hashgraph Online.
So another way that you can earn points is by connecting your GitHub account
and creating an open source contribution.
So if you create a pull request to our specifications,
to our SDKs and so forth,
then you will gain points on that.
And we've built a custom AI
that will actually analyze those contributions
and decide what they're worth.
So it's not something that you can kind of like game
or anything like that.
But the really cool point here is we have a bounty open
where you can get 10,000 points right now
for creating a new HCS specification.
So for those who don't know, a specification,
for example, is a cache mills, right?
It defines how you use the consensus service
to do a certain app layer thing,
like storing files and minting entities.
And after you create that specification,
if it's merged in by Hashgraph Online DAO,
and then people start using your specification
and creating transactions,
then those transactions will also generate points.
So as a developer coming into the ecosystem,
there is a huge benefit to becoming a partner
in the Hashgraph Online ecosystem or integrating your agent registry.
And then the last part, too, is for folks who are building an AI ecosystem.
If you create agents, register agents or talk to agents using the broker, that's yet another way that you can adopt and gain points on your profile.
another way that you can adopt and gain points on your profile.
Yeah, I love the use of like the points, points and rewards here. I know that a lot of people,
I mean, they kind of, you know, create this, not, not, I'm trying to find the right word.
I'm still waking up guys. Sorry. There's, there's a similarity, I guess it could be the right word
to, you know, these loyalty reward points are points you're getting, credit card points that were
occurring using these
credit cards and whatnot. But I feel
like on-chain,
you can take this points initiative to the next
level and just enhance the
quality of the rewards that people are earning
and diversify that out in many different
ways. And your
points portal really kind of speaks
out or speaks to me in that regard. it reminds me a lot about deep ends as well you know i do a lot of stuff in
the deep end space and you know there's there's active there's there's a number of different ways
that are actively being tried out in terms of rewarding the network participants that are you
know helping provide the service or product so i absolutely love that man thank you for the
breakdown there i don't know if anyone else on the stage had any questions or anything to say about that,
but by all means, you guys are all welcome to do that. Kabila, Nat, Joe, go ahead.
Yeah. So I actually interviewed, well, I don't want to say interviewed, but I actually spoke with
Michael on Hidira Spotlight not too long ago, and we dug into the the point system and what really resonates
with me is that it's it's retroactive right so let's say if uh correct me if i'm wrong michael
but for example if i didn't know i i had points and some time went by can you guys go in the system
and like locate these things and and even with the referral right if i refer to someone that didn't
know they have these points they they can go in and kind
of still see the points being there. Correct. Yeah, that's correct. Everything's retroactive.
So let's say you, you traded a bunch of hashtags or you inscribe some content or you created agents
with your wallet like months ago, and then you go and connect into the portal,
those points will show up
and they'll be associated with your account automatically.
The same thing with GitHub contributions.
There are a lot of folks that contribute on GitHub
to Hashgraph online,
and they haven't connected yet to the points portal.
So when they do connect,
those points will just be waiting for them, essentially.
I absolutely love that. I love that. thank you so much for letting us know and we actually dove into the ai conversation uh with
michael william and i think we had a very interesting conversation with regards to like
agi versus asi and his take is amazing so if you don't know michael um sorry if you don't know
william michael is the go-to person when it comes to like AI and Hedera.
Literally everyone I speak to on Hedera and I ask the AI questions, like, you know who you need to connect with?
You need to connect with Kant or Michael, which I think is amazing.
And what they're building, I think, sets the foundation of amazing things that's going to happen within the Hedera ecosystem, 2026 and beyond.
amazing things that's going to happen within the Hedera ecosystem,
2026 and beyond.
Well, now, now you, now you've brought all this up.
Now I need to, I need to ask him about AGI versus ASI.
Well, what the, what the heck, Michael, you need, come on, dude,
I'm going to put you on the spotlight again. Let's go.
You know, AGI is, is actually like an area of study and it was,
it was a concept that was created by Google's DeepMind. If you're not familiar with
DeepMind, it's an organization that Google runs for AI specifically. And they do a lot of things
like Gemini Robotics as well. And they've set the foundation for most of AI as we know it,
including transformers and whatnot. So they created this word AGI as really
like, okay, we want to study the intelligence of agents. What do we call this study? AGI,
artificial general intelligence. And a lot of people took that as like, okay, this is like a
goal or a milestone that we need to get to in society. But that wasn't what they were trying
to do at all. They were really just trying to, trying to you know like what do you call the thing that you're studying
like biology or chemistry or physics like okay we'll call it agi and then people just figured
okay this is the bar that we need to get to that to say that ai is actually sentient. But there is actually lots of different bars. The founder of DeepMind,
he calls it AGI minimum, and then there's like AGI high, and then there's ASI. So AGI is,
you know, a lot of people will argue that when you're talking to a chat bot today,
like a large language model and open AI,
that we've already hit AGI because most people cannot do the things that GPT-5.2 can do. I
certainly can't answer physics or chemistry questions or some of the computational problems
that GPT-5.2 could do. And I think, okay, this thing is smarter than me. It's more efficient than me in many different ways. But another nuance of looking at it is, well, okay, it's good at
talking to you and responding to you, but it's, are there things, you know, in the plainest form
of AGI is, is this thing able to essentially act,
do and respond to situations as a human would.
For example, if you were to put an AI in a street
and you told it to identify the car in the background
and what color it is,
most AI's will give you the wrong answer
because their vision capabilities are not that good, right? And of course, Google has made a lot of progress with Waymo.
That's more through robotics and sensors than it actually is artificial intelligence.
So some experts say that we haven't really reached AGI yet because from like vision capabilities
and common sense capabilities and using senses other than chat,
these things aren't quite capable yet. DeepMind says by 2028, we'll probably get there.
OpenAI's definition is a lot more loose and per OpenAI's definition, I think we're a lot closer.
I personally think that we've probably already hit AGI for all practical purposes,
We've probably already hit AGI for all practical purposes, maybe not vision, senses and smell and so forth.
ASI, however, artificial superintelligence, is when AI is actually smarter than things like the average PhD and XYZ field.
and XYZ field. And experts agree that we have not hit ASI at this point from any model yet,
mostly because we're not quite using models to invent new things without the input of a human.
And we're certainly not meeting some of the requirements from general awareness or general
cognition that humans have.
So you're telling me when my AI can smell,
like it's going to, I really don't want my AI to smell.
I was trying to make a joke there,
but my AI smelling me makes me feel kind of weird, man.
I don't know.
Is AI going to smell eventually, Michael?
I think so. I think when we get it into a sense of like Gemini robotics,
these robots should have all the capabilities.
I mean, think about it.
If you've got a robot that can smell fire, right, or smoke rather,
think of the amount of lives that it can save.
And a general human will smell smoke and they will alert people or they'll say
like run you know there's something going on there's something strange we should call somebody
and get help and if you deploy an ai in that same situation today they won't know the difference
right so i do think that's an important piece of it can you imagine your ai smelling you when
you're on the way after like a night session in
the gym and it's like, smells like Nat Nat is on her way? I just want to end this space now, dude,
that was gnarly. Oh my goodness. Oh, no.
I can't imagine my AI just, oh, man, that's going to be so creepy.
Thank you so much for just ruining my day in that.
Getting my Christmas all riled up over here.
It's going to be great. Oh, you're absolutely welcome.
That's what co-hosts are for.
Exactly.
And it's all happening on Hedera.
AI will smell you, and it's happening all on Hedera, guys.
Seriously.
Super, super awesome conversation so far.
Listeners, if you've been enjoying yourselves,
make sure you're following the speakers up here on stage.
And speakers, thank you so much for being here.
It's been an awesome conversation.
We have about five more minutes before we're going to start wrapping things up here.
And so I'm actually going to ask each and every one of you,
nothing too personal, I guess,
but I would
love to maybe get the Christmas plans from everyone. If you guys celebrate Christmas or
the holidays, even I'd love to get an idea of what you're doing. Uh, I know, uh, was it Christmas
is Wednesday. Um, I'm personally going to New York city to see my brother and I'm actually
installing some, uh, some deep end devices also for the holidays up there. I'm actually installing some Deepin devices also over the holidays up there.
I'm installing some hotspots because your boy never stops working up here, guys.
Your boy never stops working.
But it's going to be a great time.
We're going to spend some time with the family, hang out with my wife.
Our baby's due in March.
So enjoying some peace and quiet this Christmas along with some fun with the family before it's chaos.
All chaos for me this year, or in 2026 at least.
It's going to be great.
I know Nat is very familiar with that.
So Nat, I'm actually going to throw it to you.
What are your Christmas plans?
I'm curious.
Yeah, so we don't celebrate Christmas, but my mother-in-law, well, my husband's aunt,
they're in New York, and they haven't seen the baby.
They want to see the baby, so we're going to introduce the baby to them for the first time.
It's so much fun. We're driving there. They're in New York, right. So we're going to introduce the baby to them for the first time. It's so much fun.
We're driving there.
They're in New York, right?
So we're driving there.
It's like a five-hour drive with two kids and a baby.
Oh, it's going to be so much fun.
I'm looking forward to it.
I guess we'll have to link up now.
Shoot.
Like, I'll be going there, I think, Saturday.
We'll be flying up there with my wife.
So, I mean, hey, if you're still up there over the weekend
and through New Year's, just let me know.
I'm more than happy to link up and yeah my wife can meet the baby we
can all meet the baby and hang out it's gonna be great go ice skating or something it'd be cool
uh joe what are you doing just at our three days with my mom and my brother-in-law my sister my
nephew we were up in asheville north carolina, and Wednesday I will go see part of my family in South Carolina, and then Thursday back to Georgia for Thursday and Friday we do all of the cooking for Stephanie's small family in Georgia. But Stephanie works at a hospital. She's working on Christmas Eve,
Wednesday. So I'll go see part of my family Christmas Eve, Wednesday, hang out with my dad.
It's going to be exceptionally unseasonably warm here. It's going to be like in the mid-70s.
So my dad wants to sneak away Wednesday morning and play a round of golf, which Christmas Eve golf is almost unheard of.
But we're going to we're going to do that and then go hang out with family.
So a lot of travel. I don't have to go to an airport this year.
So that's absolutely wonderful airports during the holidays.
It's kind of like going out to a bar on New Year's Eve.
All the rookies and amateurs
do it. People that only fly once a decade tend to fly around the holidays, and it's just a
terrible experience. So driving only for me this year is great. That sounds great. You said it's
gonna be 70 degrees in Georgia. Dude, it's cold as heck over here in Florida right now. I don't
know how that's possible. Yeah yeah 74 where it's gonna start warming
up today and warm up through saturday i think so um expect some nice weather i think even in florida
for for christmas that's that's gonna be sick i cannot wait that's gonna be so awesome man
uh happy to hear that kabil i want to throw it to you i would love to get your christmas plans
man your holiday plans yeah definitely so um no i've
been i've been listening and um as i'm still driving i'm not able to throw those emojis but
um i've been enjoying the conversation and um congratulations on on the baby that's coming in
march april uh you said i uh yeah march 2nd yep man. I didn't know that yet. So congrats on that.
We are also, so my fiance and I are also expecting our first kid in June.
So 2026 is going to be a very special year.
And I mean, yeah, the Web3 space has its ups and its downs.
Crazy busy weeks. And then, especially in the retail
ecosystem, you also have the down weeks. And I think, well, as we're nearing the year's end,
and we have the holidays right now, and it matches up with a more quieter time in the
retail ecosystem, it's probably something we should make use of
and spend some more time with friends and family.
So that's exactly what I'm doing.
And I'm expecting, I'm just choosing to be,
to remain bullish and I'm expecting an energized 2026.
So I'm definitely making use of these quieter weeks and um to uh to start the new year refreshed
so yeah i'll be spending christmas eve christmas day and i don't know how this is with you guys
in your country but we also celebrate second christmas day. So with my family, first, well, my parents are not together.
So with my mom's side of the family, my dad's side of the family,
and then also my fiancé's family.
And then, yeah, some activities with friends.
So busy weeks, and I'm looking forward to all to all of it yep yeah thank you man i i get
that completely many many christmases across the family for sure um and i'm really happy someone
finally mentioned web3 in their christmas response guys come on this is a this is a hedera space a
web3 space come on dude like no one mentioned crypto at all in their christmas plans that's
ridiculous all right uh i'm teaching my baby how to say hey there pretty soon. You'll see.
Okay. The price just pumped up 10 more percent. Congratulations, Nat. You said it about 10 times
the space. That's 1% for every time you say it. I know Earthlings had to walk away. So,
you know, Earthlings, I'll pass on you. Thank you so much for being here. I'm actually going to
throw it to Hashgraph now. Michael, I would love your plans, man, your Christmas plans. What's going on?
Yeah. So I'm actually Jewish, but my partner is very much Christian, and we do celebrate
Christmas. And we have so many presents under the tree at this point. It is getting really crazy.
We have like in our hall, our hallway is packed out because we live in New York and it's small.
If you know anything about New York, it's living in a tiny closet. So I'm staring at a wagon and
it's got like a hundred presents on it and we have to, you know, literally go Santa Claus and deliver these to some family members.
So Christmas is going to be very, very fun.
We're looking forward to it.
You're getting the best of both worlds then having the partner with Christmas.
And then you, you get the, you, you, I'm assuming,
assuming you celebrate Hanukkah at least to some degree.
And so that's, that's pretty awesome, dude.
And also you're in, you're in New York. That's sick.
You, Nat, and me have to meet up now.
I do.
My family does something weird, too.
We've got Hanukkah, but we do New Year's presents.
So every year we get together on New Year's.
And my mother, she has this New Year's tree,
believe it or not.
And that's when we do the gifts for my side of the family.
That's so beautiful.
That's such a beautiful thing.
Yeah, Nat, I'll hit you guys up in the DMs on X here.
Michael and Nat, I'll throw you guys DMs.
But no, thank you so much.
I have to be getting ready for another space here, guys.
But it's been an incredible conversation.
Again, listeners, if you've enjoyed this space,
make sure you're following these speakers, but also make sure you hit that
retweet button as the space is recorded so people can come back in, listen in later on.
Very similar to like a podcast. Maybe you're going to the gym, maybe you're driving and you
want to listen to something, you can turn the space on. It's pretty sick. So your retweet helps
with that. Thank you so much for doing that. Speakers, again, thank you so much for your time.
Guys, enjoy your holidays. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Whatever you celebrate out there, just make sure you have
fun. Spend time with family. Touch some grass. Touch some snow, if it applies to you. But yeah,
check us out again next week. We'll be live again Monday, 12 p.m. Eastern, here on X for another
Hedera Roundtable. So we'll see you guys then. But until then, enjoy your holidays. Merry Christmas.
I'll catch you guys on Monday. Thank you so much. Peace out.
Insights
P
