GM GM. Can you hear me well? Good morning. Yes, we can hear you. Welcome everyone to App Toss with Monday.
Welcome welcome Howdy everybody today's gonna be a very exciting day. We have Alex from a conia and we have
Ed from PIF. Both of which have been around Innery because it's still for quite a long time. So this is super exciting. I have Matt with me here.
I need to add this speaker.
- Okay, thanks, I'll see. - Hey guys.
So we are, we're going to move Monday, by the way, everyone for those whose first time it is. We like to talk about things that are app-cost related, whether that's move ecosystem or otherwise. As we see people just starting to trickle in,
I'll give them a few minutes to join before launching in. I see Shamrock. Hello, Shamrock. Vaba, Aries, Man, Articom, Girls, More, and More every day. This is fantastic. How are y'all doing?
Fantastic. No one speaks all speak. Doing amazing. Thank you very much. Pretty excited. Pretty excited to see this.
Been a long time cooking and with all the recent developments it just feels like a great time
Good good. It's it's super exciting for us to Okay, I see aconia has has connected as well Hey guys
Yeah, very nice to meet all of you guys
Hello, okay, nice to oh, sorry
So I say hello, a county lapses in the house. We have switched phones to use a larger screen so that we can accept the co-hosting invitation. So we're on standby for the co-hosting invitation now.
Twitter brings us like a whole the of all the things I worry about. Arguably the thing I worry the most is Twitter performance. Not so much the blockchain, the pro-corba
are much to an experience. Yeah, there's like a 90% chance that my Twitter will rug. I don't think there's ever been a move Monday where I did not disconnect at some point. But you know, maybe maybe that's what happens when you fire 80% of everyone
We do have a decentralized hosting schema right now. So I do think that even if you did rug that potentially the other co-host would be able to help it. So at least we're applying the principles of blockchain to make sure that our Twitter space is going smoothly.
True, we do have a slightly better commotical vision, but not necessarily.
Not one I think most questions would be happy with him. Yeah, we could do a little bit better than three.
Hey, mining falls though, just saying.
Yeah, the Twitter equivalent of a mining pool. Is there Twitter, I mean,
Just send the profits to us and yes, there is.
Perfect. Perfect, perfect. Well, fantastic. I think we can get started with everyone up here. Would you like to introduce yourselves or if I miss anyone, please let me know.
I'll start with things Max. So I'm Alex. I'm co-founder and CEO of Aconio Labs and the author of the Aconio Protocol. I'm here to talk to you all today about hyper-paralyzed on-chain order books, all things DeFi and some interesting possibilities that we open up with Pith on the Atlas Network.
I am Mark, I work for the Peace Data Association which is pretty much like the Swiss Association behind actual Entrain Protocol and overall perf, yes, is
is a financial driven Oracle specialized in price feed and I work for the PISDOT association for two years not doing tons of technical stuff but just means
around and just trying to make defy the what it aimed to be in the first place. Reprise the replace strat 5. That's the end. Down the line goes to with the Konya you mix the
On chain if I you you mix up the centralized audiobook with some kind of Hyperformat Oracle and you end up with what's gonna be the next leg up of the financial structure hopefully
Hopefully. For those listening, can you explain a little bit about why you want to decentralize the order for? What advantages it has and what's the problem with the way things work today? Yeah, of course. So let's go.
So let's start maybe with the way things are today with centralized order book. So in the case of cryptocurrency exchanges, you typically have someone running an order book like Binance or Coinbase on an Amazon Web Services Cloud deployment or some other cloud provider.
book looks to the public as though there are trades going through and that everything is sort of handled according to these official rules of the order book. But there's actually no sort of oversight on that. And we've seen throughout the history of centralized crypto exchanges that there has been, you know, malfeasance in the way that some
Sometimes internal training teams have privileged access to order books. They might be able to front-run retail. There's all these sort of issues with transparency. And even things like negative account balances we've seen programmed where people can place orders even if they don't have adequate collateral. If we think about the traditional finance space, the closest analog is going to be
something like the NASDAQ or the New York Stock Exchange. And this is all centralized in a data center in New Jersey, for example, which given that the economic power of one country is a pretty big lever it has in geopolitical sort of negotiations and such. That makes it actually a
a decent military target. And think about if someone were to bomb the New York Stock Exchange, like the American economy would pretty much come to a halt. And even so, like with consumers, if retail wants to buy a share of Apple stock or something, they go on their Robinhood or their e-trade account and they click buy, but along the way they're
like six or seven middlemen who are taking a cut, they're batching up orders, they're submitting this order flow to large organizations like Citadel who are skimming off the top and you know front-running and arby retail. And then when it finally you know the rubber hits the road you have these extraordinarily privileged financial institutions that are running high-frequency trading algorithms on the data center and
in New Jersey or wherever, if it's an ASDAQ, somewhere else, and they are paying millions of dollars essentially to just be closer to the server, to use an Ethernet cable that's a standard length so that they don't have some kind of unfair advantage over the other HFT participants who are paying all these millions of dollars to
get closer retail, like real estate, they have network engineers who are writing assembly codes to minimize the number of operations and it's all geared towards this very sort of non-transparent venue that only lets the most privileged players have access to place orders on the order book and we contrast
this with something that's available on Cheng with Akonya where everything is completely transparent. Everyone can see the order that everyone is made. All the orders are fully collateralized. I didn't top of that, you have instant settlement. So when someone places a trade for an equity or commodity often, it doesn't actually clear for several days after the fact and they can't move their phones off that exchange or whatever. But with Akonya,
As soon as it clears, you can take it out of your market account and use it for something else in DFI. You can buy it in NFT with it. The way that Aquania is built is composable to support not just traditional kind of spot trading, but also leverage. People can do margin trading and we have sort of these extensible endpoints that support derivatives as well.
for that is perpetual futures. And this is sort of where, you know, Pith comes on is because we need high fidelity on chain price data and sort of one of the tricks with a blockchain is that you need to get the data there so that you can process things like liquidation so you can run funding rates and, you know, create these derivative financial instruments.
But you need to have a trusted network of data coming in from people who are potentially adversarial and are making sure that they're keeping each other honest. And this is where Pith comes into play with D5 providing this smarter data for these smarter contracts. And I think this might be a good time to hand it over to Pith and let them take it with me.
That was a fantastic explanation and T.I. I'm not from the traditional world, but everything you said just hit the spot because that's one thing that overall, I think from my perspective, one thing where crypto, fear the void was
very much on to the, let's remove the middleman. And like I very much feel like today you think all the book trading, you think about US stock exchanges and just how just trades operate there. And one
The blockchain brings and all the teams like Ikonia is very much the technical infrastructure for what exists today, but how it could be made
better. And so this is amazing to work on, like working with the Krona Chem and even broader. But this has been very much amazing to just like, if you put it even in like badly
or frame it badly, like we're just our goal as an Oracle, like it's a very B2B product is to enable people. And what we've seen is people want to take over what they do. And overall
It has meant on the blockchain side, just running your own node, or doing pretty much the general transaction. But it's been very insane to see that
interest in like my data needs to be good, my infrastructure needs to be good, it cannot be compromised. So this has been amazing to see that like within the ecosystem, like people owning what they ship. And overall I think we've seen
seen better products in the past year being shipped just because of this. Like you own what you deliver in the whole like Econia like APTOs went five I'll do some guesstimate like four five months ago.
Please stop me if I'm wrong but I would argue almost you could have went live by then but it almost like you better wait a bit and ship the Kira Rasp product
So that it fits retail, but it feels people building on it because that's one thing that where Econia I feel understood very early how to do is
Almost your success is not driven by yourself, but driven by people using you. And Econia is an amazing structure. And overall, like Econia is in all the book, I think, a space as the same way. We enable people to do things. And I'm pretty sure that some
Somehow people feel like they don't enable me enough, but any developer is like, "Jesus, I can do anything I want." So that's one thing that very much excites me is random people, the permission this way, just lever
leveraging the tech to try to achieve what they want to. And same as Iconia, whether we know about what they do, down the line we don't care. People, we are enabling people to do things. That's how we want to put it.
I would extend everything that Marcia said about maybe you could call it like pushing power to the edges. If we contrast the cycle of building and development on AppDOS with Akani with Pith with Flotchins in general, there's this new dynamic that lets anyone sort of get in and you know in the very like pure sense like anyone can write a smart
contract and publish on the blockchain. It's permissionless. Obviously, there's more that goes into it than that. Think about trying to start a business and try to disrupt or innovate on Wall Street nowadays. You have to have legions of network engineers who understand how to make an integrated circuit run at the
of it is already pretty entrenched. I mean, it's the incumbents are sort of kept in place by the existing laws and regulations. But now with blockchains, you can go online and you can look at an open source protocol like a conia or pith and you can fork it for yourself. You can play around with the code. You can even make feature requests. And we see all these projects that are starting really just from people who
met on discord or who are hacking around with local friends and they went to a hackathon. I mean, if we want to take a bag, I get tripping the time machine one year ago, I think maybe exactly to the date, maybe it was May 5th or 8th or something last year. I can't recall, but Aconia started as a hackathon project and the pre-made net hackathon in power also. And it grew into the project
that it is today. And this part of, and you know, like, I don't, I don't say this to sort of like, most about Akkanya, but I say that, like, we were able to raise a six and a half million dollar seed round by one of the most prestigious venture funds in the space. And it's because there's so much dedication to the space from the people who are taking place in respect, the sort of building
There are so many connections that are opened by the innovative cycle. It is a bottom-up approach. That is why we are so enthusiastic about the people who are building together that are leveraging other people's tooling. This is why we are sponsoring the upcoming APTAS hackathon in Amsterdam where there
a DeFi track with a first prize of $30,000, second, $20,000, third place, 10,000 because we want to see the most innovation taking place from new teams or thinking outside the box that are really just ready to show up and like stay up and hack into the night because that's really what pushes this forward. I mean, we don't have an army of like
like lobbyists and we don't have like a few engineers with the right connections building the future finance. We have an entire like exponentially growing cohort of like you know GitHub monkeys who are just pushing commit after commit and who won't stop and nothing can really keep up with that because it's only growing and I think that's one of the most sort of
inspiring things about this space is to see everybody high-mining together to build a new system that is unstoppable and much better than anything that has come before. And just to add on this, I wondered if not 200% ever is this, it's just
the ability, like where it shifts your mind, like because our product is permissionless. So sometimes people have integrated the ship products and then they reach out to us saying like, oh, we love some core marketing whatsoever.
And it's one thing that's very powerful about everything we do, and not just specifically around our protocol, but just kind of the open source, kind of framework and mentality, even in working.
We could not know each other spend two weeks and just work up on the best priorities ever and it's been amazing to see that
Like at the end of the day people don't care, just try to make the best to happen. And that's been amazing, especially working, working
around like with the new after sub date and stuff like it's been such a crazy time recently it's been amazing to see people just committed to ship stuff like it's
Where you make the difference between the thing that's gonna live and the things that's gonna die and people are shipping stuff today. So that's that's that has been amazingly cool to see on that.
That is super inspiring by the way. I'm I'm I'm excited to be doing after hearing what you said. And I'm really really glad that that that is the experience as well. Right. I think we want to be good. It's really amazing that you know, you you were able to build that you were able to raise.
Congratulations, that's a huge accomplishment. You know, you were able to watch products. What I want to emphasize is sometimes two-hole listening here, it could almost feel like what Twitter tells you, don't listen to Twitter.
We do always buy est, so very much it's shipping time. Maybe we'll go deeper into what we've shipped with Iconia, but it's very much shipping time. So don't stay on the lines and just hope for the best.
Like you're very close to shipping a one billion dollar product in the next year So everyone is saying if everyone's a hacking dev like it's very much the time to just Ask your cues turn to this cold after a seconia hours as the questions and
and just ship stuff. And it's the best time ever to try to ship stuff. So it's very much where you make the difference and you'll feel where you make the difference. So like path we are like two years old so we're a bit much
older than that to us. Like we've part taken in many like hackathons and stuff. Nothing beats like having the home chain running at and just ship stuff. May not stick.
But still, we all early. So there's a good chance it's take and you'll make it a success.
I would add to that a lot of the things that are now available for builders are providing the kind of fundamental tooling that is going up this dependency stack and I think that the last 10 years of blockchain history have been like kind of condensed into a lot of very core principles
like we need a high performance L1 we need something that's trusted and we need primitives that you can compose together. And I think with AppDOS that we saw that that base layer of like basically just a world, you know, a computer that we can all program together that is secured by the move language with type safety all these different sort of parallelism unlocks with apps.
And then Akania and Pith were providing you know fundamental building blocks within that virtual machine that you can then compose together. And so we have an order book. We have a we have price feeds and so there's so many things you can do now. You can do borrow lend protocols with automatic liquidations. You can do margin trading on top of the order book. You can do perpetual futures. There are options and these are
These are things that people, that they're sort of like the protocol for these sorts of products is a kind of glue that connects things together. And you don't want to have people to have to create a new matching engine each time. You don't want to have people to reinvent a stable oracle feed so that they can do the real, the real
work which is creating structured products or helping people to go long or short with whatever leverage they want. And so I think that it makes me think of, I think it's this quote by like Abraham Lincoln, maybe it was, but he was saying like, give me six hours to cut down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. And I think that those first four hours
have sort of happened for anyone who wants to finally sort of hand over this experience to the user. Like we have the backend systems, we have the community support, we have this sort of snowball effect with all these builders working together and the app thus community is just getting off the ground. And so definitely echo that idea that now is the time to build. I think now is the time to look through
of these two protocols and start seeing what is possible, how you can compose. I mean, we're glad to collaborate with teams and person online, obviously. Like I was saying, we're going to be at this hackathon with Abdaus at the hack Amsterdam. We're going to have six members of our team there. We're building out open source across the word infrastructure tool and we're working on a reference front end right now so that
people can just clone it and fork it for themselves and have a high performance trading view dashboard that you know is on par with something like Coinbase. And so there's so many tools now that are out there for builders and I think that this is almost like the high performance DeFi chat is really it's in me it's like the it's like the hyper efficient in
structured chat they were having right now because we've got these sort of composable elements together. And I think I would also maybe like to hear a bit of if we're talking to chat more about like what what it means to have Aptos as a tool that people can build on like this shared computer and and maybe the context in the in the sort of the space of the
Yes, new technology, the world, all together. Before Wolfgang goes out, Peth will be at Amsterdam-Aptos, or Peth, at least myself. So I'll be around. So I'll be happy to meet you guys and excited to see what everyone has to say on this.
Wolfgang, if we're trying to build a high performance financial ecosystem, why would we want to do that on AppDOS instead of on another blockchain?
Well, I think there are multiple reasons for that. So, you know, that we do have a pretty sophisticated way of growing parallel execution in up to us. So we will allow us to, or does allow us, we have proven that in the past to scale up the
the TPS is quite significant. The actual achievable TPS, not the thing you observe on a daily basis. So this is one reason. And another reason is also that because of the structure of the move language, and for example,
So, the Moof Language allows you to read explicitly about what resources are written. Even so, we do not even exploit this today. We reach the high TPS, but in the future we may exploit that to even further push us up.
and to come up with some interesting technologies, Trigans Sharding and horizontal scalability and so on, which allow us to push the cost or the speed even higher and the cost lower eventually. So since this is basically
On the one hand, the amazing technology which our research team started to build already back at the M and then refined here at Uptos for the Convenzos protocol and on the other hand, the capabilities of some move language and its parallelizability for high speed execution.
With the, with the sharding potential that you described earlier, what are your thoughts on almost like app specific shards? Maybe there's one for an NFT marketplace or for, for an order book or oracles that they can publish within that shard. Do you think that that inhibits composability? Do you think it's ultimately
better for performance, like what kinds of discussions is aptus having internally about these sort of implementations? Yeah, so let's assume you would know from a transaction which resources is going to read and write in the dependency of its parameters. Indeed, it is not static, but it's determined by the parameter
to the transaction, which is for example a set of addresses or signers. If you know this ahead of time, then when the transaction enters our system and goes into mempool for example, you could already figure out, oh, okay, that transaction is going to read this area of memory and write to that area of memory
and this transaction is reading or writing to another area of memory and you could basically distribute and multiplex those transactions to to different nodes which have different storage backgrounds. That's what we mean with shading and so this is one thing you can do
But we are also considering that that is indeed a little bit more experimental. It's also worked, started already back at Facebook, but continue to a little bit of basically running multiple blockchains with the same nodes. And those blockchains have blotches in between them. This is another way of faring the S-
thinking about. It's not like the layer 2, layer 1, which you find typically. It's basically a couple of layer ones which communicate via bridge to each other. And then inside of each of those particular chains, you can have high performance for particular class of applications or particular customers.
That's another thing. Just to be clear what I just said is indeed highly speculative and experimental. So we haven't really started deeply working on that, but definitely the parallelization, which I mentioned before, and the sharding based on read-write sets, that's something we will look at very soon.
Awesome. I think that the parallelism that comes with Aptos is one of the first things that attracted us to building on Aptos. And when we often get this question of like, why do Lacania on this specific L1 when there are so many other ones out there? And often the TLDR is because we couldn't build
anywhere else. I mean, there's specific things like the dynamic memory allocation and the optimistic concurrency that allow us to build this sort of autonomous order book into sky that doesn't require anyone to sort of push things along from the outside sending the trigger transaction. We're fully crankless, which contrasts with a lot of other order books in the ecosystem or
And really, I can't even imagine trying to build something like that, like on Solana, for example, where you have to do this pessimistic form of concurrency. And so I think that all those performance unlocks ultimately are what give us this really great, facelayer tool to build on top of that.
And I think that one thing that this pretty amazing about what like Mark was saying earlier is how we're trying to create a better alternative to existing systems. I would say that with PITS, this is almost like a public good that we don't really see anywhere else this price data. The closest thing I can think of is maybe a
But even so if you want access to a Bloomberg terminal, I think if you're a university you still have to pay what maybe $25,000 a seat to get the financial data that institutions are using. And so I think that when we when there's this system that publishes it on chain and this public forum that really kind of shows
And I think it makes people think like, oh, we now have this whiteboard in the sky with all this price data. Like, you know, surely we can do something with that. And we already see the use cases for like Mark was saying people don't stop and reach out afterwards to say that. But I think that this marks a kind of paradigm shift in the idea that data now is becoming
coming more valuable when it's on chain and when it's public and when it's siloed off and when someone tries to skim off the top from publishing it in proprietary methods. Exactly. Just to maybe reframe it, it's not so much about making that data available.
access to that data today you could have almost kind of front run every existing competitor created your own or I call just it but what's very powerful or where it fits very the sticking point is
like whenever you try to standardize things.
No one's been standardizing or has even tried to do it. So that's where at least I think where our work with Econia rings also a lot is you'll get your classic
Let's say support, amazing, just deployment from the users, but you'll get
As long as you kind of explain to people what you're going to do, it's going to work 20 times better. So that's one very much thing that I love from the general
general like app tools user base is that they're not just like your regular EVM user. I'm using this. I'm doing a trade.
like I don't care if you don't understand it. What I did get from the APTOs community is that at the end of the day,
They all try to show you where or how it's getting built. And it was amazing. Like in the past months we've seen the Aptos guest fees going down 10X and from this perspective where it's very much like
on demand it's a buffet. Let's call Peter buffet. Since we've seen insane improvements on the technical side, we've had like 20X on the user side, on the request side. And it's like in blockchain today,
it's not often like this. When you have a problem like of not even not enough user it's not because of your chain whatever. Just no one's fucking interested in doing it. But on the upper side it's been amazing to see both the teams and even just
the general kind of our cottage retail. It's a bad word. The retail as a user, it's been amazing to see them taking over things. And that's where I've seen in the past two months and I can take and I can
talk from a personal site like early on anything and even peace operation price update was expensive months ago shipped updates and now Abtos is an amazing chain to use like it's a very much defy driven chain and it's
From our perspective, it's to enable it. It's you are in power, everything you do. You could change the world and our goals to enable you to change the world. So that's very cool to see both kind of, let's call it,
the general team, but also kind of the greater community come up to, yeah, that was expensive, guess physical expensive. And now everything went 10x lower and it's amazing. Like, I've been personally using up to us every day for a month now.
So that's very cool to see.
dedicated teams like this or dedicated might not be the best term but people delivering on stuff like this and this is what gets you going. Perth we haven't reached the token, we are still in some ways entrised but it's
amazing to see just people committing the like the a corny or the book ship some stuff see that oh the order book might not be the greatest put put PR
for it. So it's, I've been very much, and after I'm keen to hear your thoughts on this, but I've been loving that aptos move kind of develop a base so far.
I love what you brought up about the bottom-up approach of these developers and everyone has this sort of initial vision they have and then along the way they find one or two little things are like okay I need to fix this let me hack on that for a second and then they build something that somebody else improves on and they hack on that and you mentioned you know anyone can just submit a PR I think AppDOS
is done a really good job of incorporating PRs. I would like to, I guess, commend and obviously just take them for accepting mine at least. I remember when we were talking about this episode a little earlier, Greg was asking if I could talk about some of the CLI work I've been doing in the Apto CLI. So I think this might be a good time. I've got this whole list of things that I've like worked on with the#
We wanted for a conia that we knew other people were going to want to deploy. So like for example, we have poll number 7521 that's a vanity generator for the app.coi. So now you can go in and you can create an address that starts with you know, F00CIE, you can have it be a food cafe or whatever, right? These are the kinds of things that end up being really good.
good for marketing for like vanity addresses. There have been like things in the app. So I like in poll 6, 7, 9, 3, we dried out some of the like the repeat code and made a lot smoother to implement new features like then we added a multi-sig vanity address. So now with this multi-sig V2 that Kevin and other members of the court team been working on, you can create a
And on chain multi-sig that lets people like add or move signatories and it actually all the voting is done on chain so you don't have to assemble signatures and then submit this kind of You know shared transaction, but also since it's own address we want to abandon yet support for that too. So we added that in We added and then also a poll 777
We added nested vector input for the app to see a lie. So it used to be that you could only do vectors like one one argument deep. But now you can do two arguments. Steve even up to like seven. I think it is at this point. It just recursively parses it. So these are all things that we thought like a conia would need for our deployment solution that we're going to for when we launch and everything.
But we realized that if we make this in this general sense other people can use it and that the ecosystem as a whole can sort of profit from it and I think that the the app does by just simply harnessing that and like in taking all these asserted PRs is creating a product that like everybody owns together and that everyone wants to work on and is you know like we're creating like Linux
DeFi basically over here, which I think is really exciting to be a part of, to look through the repo and see all these different people's commits on everything if you go in the get-point and the file cannot, like 100 people, for example. And I think the sort of like really captivating part about this process of people writing code, submitting PRs 24/7 all around the world,
is everyone is really just trying to create solutions for their own little kind of problem that gets in the way like, oh, we need standardized price data, right, or we need to have like a new CLI functionality. And in the end, we end up building this really compelling alternative because it's it's like user and developer driven. And I think that it creates something that is sort of keeping
traditional finance honest in a way like if even even as existing financial systems are very like entrenched and they're still performing you know there's a reason we have things like 500 trades per second on the NASDAQ and not on blockings because blockings can't handle that yet but I think that by having this sort of yardstick with things like
Like organic borrow and when rates on chain sort of reaching a market equilibrium you compare that with you know whatever the Fed is deciding you know arbitrarily at that moment It wants to have based on how it might want to curate television like people are saying okay if I can get 2% on chain But maybe it's only 0.25% off chain like maybe I'll just invest USDC and like
some, you know, a curve pool or whatever, right? And I think too with like the price data and these on chain order books were creating a very, like a very early sort of maybe like takeovers or I don't know that it's like, well, I know I can at least trade it on chain and I know that I can at least have a fully collateralized counterparty and it might be made
Maybe not as fast if I'm like an HFT trading firm, but if I'm a general user, like I don't have to see any power to middlemen. And I think that this is all the result of people just like bottom up building little quirks and fixes for their own sort of projects. And it's really exciting to see the sort of emergent effects of that phenomenon.
where I do align 100% with you is we are up until like I understand the mashup with everything that's already built. It's very much into opening the door to what's gonna get built in
the future. And that's where I very much like at those like months ago, maybe not two months ago, two weeks ago, shipped, shipped, let's say gas optimization, let's call it this way, I don't know if it's the proper way, but it's it's being an overall way
Working in crypto is very much this. Listening to feedback and shipping stuff that at the end of the day is going to make people use it. Because you still have some... You have to grasp people away from what their videos are.
And that's where I love where AppTus is going is very much like abstracting the overall shitty nitty gritty stuff away to just make your ship stuff a new stuff and that's been very powerful.
Totally on the note of shipping things as fast as possible. I'll put in a plug one more time about the hackathon to maybe entice some people with appetites and then maybe we could go over questions because it looks like we're getting towards the end. But yeah, after us, it's having the hackathon in Amsterdam to fit through the seventh six members of the economy.
for the third. And if we had known there was a $30,000 top prize at the Hackathon where we started working on our project, we probably would have had a little more built than we did last May when we showed up to AppDoc Las and Pound out there. So please anyone, that was the time to start calling together your prototypes and I'm looking forward to seeing all these in the
In just a double double on this, we've supported a sheet of haggathons with very much driver oriented. So ship staff, DME mouse,
on this called Telegram whatever, we will forget how to help you out in the future. That's one thing I very much loved around the recent innovation is that people ship stuff and ship use the bull stock and that has been amazing.
Like it's one thing you like in crypto like it's easy to get your announce went out of the door but build something that's of use and double on it so very much apply for the hackathon
get after those sweety, econia bounties, people will be around, will always be on the chin you want to, and likely will actually be able to
help you out. So definitely build up, it's the time to build. Thanks for getting better. So it's pretty much, I won't say no one ever, but it's very much now compared to five years ago, you'll get the best experience ever.
That is amazing. Thank you. I agree. You want to take some people up now? I do see that we have some people in the audience who are requested.
Okay, let me let me see if I can reclaim Gohost otherwise you want to pull a rainbow out?
I've just pulled up rainbows. So I think that there should be that up to that question. Let me know if there's something to do differently. I didn't have a question. Let's say if we want to move over to building on an op-dos, right?
you were building in some other chains but everything you guys said like totally you sold me like you had me at hello like can I marry one of you it is honestly because coming from web 2 until like web 3 it has been like awful and
And I am working on a project that is trying to put together a plan to bring people on to like what five and it is awful. Like what like the just building on every other chain, but you guys had me and hello, I think I'm in love.
How is how is the process though like if you're like a full node with another chain because they've been building on all chains but
So what did the process look like? Well, it's definitely easier now than it was a year ago when we were banging our head against the wall trying to teach ourselves move with minimal resources. But I will add that so Aconia labs we have a teacher self move on.
on Aptos Guide on our GitHub repo. So, to Conyl, I have this the GitHub organization and this teaches self-move guide. So, that's got plenty of resources to start like in this more contract side of things. I know Aptos has a lot of resources with running nodes, for example, on their site you mentioned. I think you were in Node-Off,
And so I would definitely check out updose as far as move goes the language my own personal take is that it's sort of like a maybe user friendly C++ my background is actually embedded systems design and see engineering and I learned to move
which is built on Rust and then Rust which I actually would recommend to people because Rust can be pretty complicated if you haven't done it before and move is like a subset of that. So as far as the sort of like language appraisal goes that's that's what I would say but yeah Connie laps has resources for teachers
yourself move on AppDOS and AppDOS obviously has tutorials I've written some of them. I think it was the like your first multi sig one out there. So definitely like if you find something and you think there should be a tutorial for it, just write yourself and PR into the docs site and then we can all use it. Okay cool now that's on great.
Shelfie? Hello, so I'm Shelby. I'm on the Aries markets team, head of business development, and I have a few comments and then a question. So first off, I love all three companies here. I was at the AppToss House at Consensus
last week with the week before and it was an incredible event. I love the t-shirts, I love the burgers, it was beautiful. I also was at the PIS data-driven happy hour at consensus, another great event, super impressed by both of you. And then I did meet with Akanya's team at NFT NYC.
and another great team there, super impressed. And so my question is how does AppToss new gas fee optimization improve the Pith price frequency update cost for the AppToss projects? Sure, we don't all stop here.
So overall I might have numbers around them. I'm gonna say false number, but overall I'm happy to share proof of transaction just after. But I don't want to say a wrong number, but overall
50 times better for apps over. If I recall correctly, right now, a piece press update would cost you
like 10 cents or less. So overall like the gap the app goes gas optimization and I'm pretty sure they bring let's say to because overall when you use when you use a piece price you have
to bring it from off-chain to on-chain verify it. And the main cost of it is verifying it. But with the recent app to subdate, I'm pretty sure that now, overall, using a Peace Prize is a few cents.
So overall, I guess, the recent updates or the recent after-simprovement have brought, like, from the user perspectives of peace prices, it brought back to 10X improvements from the cost perspective
to you. And based on this, we're doing more stuff ourselves, but it's been like that update has been tremendous into making the base product better.
in quality to use this. So just efficiency and for sure will go through many times, many improvements. But on that side, it's been very amazing to see
how that's improving gas has not just be a retail driven thing. It's not just be use up to a lot cheaper. It's been very much around like it's going to make up to us better. So that was amazing to see. And all
overall, like on my end that's what I've seen, like it's it enabled people to get a better free, free product out of it and that's just what I'm about is make it better for you, make more dates, what
not. So overall I've loved that custom date and the overall implementation of it has been amazing. So overall I'm striving for those improvements.
I'll add to that for anyone is trying to optimize their own move package gas costs. There's an article on the AppDOS docs website called how base gas works that I PR into appdOS and it actually has some optimizing
principles talking about minimizing rights to global storage and in particular, per item creations. So I'll leave it to the devs out there to get more of those technical details, but there's a helpful resource on there for anyone who wants to optimize their contracts even further.
That's great. Thank you guys so much.
If anyone else has any other questions I'd like to ask.
please raise your hand and we can bring you up. Also, I do see Shemera join place.
Yeah, hello, hello, what's up everyone. Always glad to be part of Move Mondays. And also I see we miss Greg today and I really miss
his voice. I believe he's voice of move Mondays. For me at least, but I believe for most of us. Yeah, Greg unfortunately wasn't able to make it for this one, but he will be back soon.
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. So actually, I have, as always, non-technical question, but maybe pretty naive also. But let's say I'm a pure, normal, and totally not familiar with Defi.
But a friend told me that AppDOS is cool. So what will be your steps as DeFi like companies projects to explain as simple as possible how to actually how to defy.
I'll take a crack at that. D5 is Internet money that doesn't require intermediaries to do the things that people have been doing in traditional finance for decades.
Okay, well that's interested and actually why I should think app does and your project.
So I mean, Aptos is the most performant, oh, one out there. I mean, it's got significant performance enhancements that have
inspired our respective projects to build on the platform. And it was developed over years with like, you know, very heavily financed research and engineering teams.
from within Facebook under the DM/StreetBer project and that project got sort of open source and made available to the public. It's really like the best sort of foundation to be building new apps on today.
Yeah, I see. I just want to explain why I ask those questions because, you know, in terms of all the development and technical stuff, you're especially a colonial lab's doing an amazing job. You're just killing it, you know, when you start to speak, I feel
myself like I'm in Hogwarts and it's kind of magic but let's face the fact that we will obviously have more and more normies joining like the spaces and such and we need something like you know as most
simple as possible to be able to explain people why and how to use and why they should use it and what will benefit them. Just to admit, just to admit to say before you go deeply,
is very much where you're right is on board and people and to it. And how you embald is very much on the general idea. It's not so much making markets like better. Like you have to be
very much driven to care about this. On our end, in Kurniaf, it's amazingly well. It's empowered people to make them discover how they can reach everything. So it's
very much into kind of the mix of you can do this, you can make it better but if you use that a lot you can make it a whole different but on this I'll just shut myself and leave it going as speaking
Thanks, yeah, I would say that rather than maybe having someone try and sermonize about why after I see fire whatever, I would probably just be to like try it out. I think that to like, you know, connect a wallet and
place of trade or borrow some money or do whatever and I think that's the easiest way is to make it click. I mean people don't really understand email until they were just sending emails from their smartphone. I'd say yeah just try it out.
Yeah cool, cool actually, yeah, thanks. One question I would ask you based on this actually is how did you get into crypto? Oh, why was maybe your first crypto interactions? Because it kind of feels
like the other thing is half you want to make all the book better but there's it's half technologically and it's half kind of more
I don't have the proper word to say, it's almost as if you could empower people around your new order book. So I'm keen to understand kind of the what triggered your view to just spend time in the
pretty much an older book driven part. I think it would be to us is a very clear need for this as this sort of building block at the base layer of DeFi and our you know technical competence is in building high performance backend systems.
And we know other engineers and other developers need high performance back end systems developed in a way that they don't need to think about that they just plug into and use kind of like people use Amazon Web Services or Google Cloud Platform or whatever. And we want to give them the tools that allow them to create rich user-facing front-ends.
And different sort of DeFi experiences. And we know that there has to be a sort of base layer for that. And that's why we chose to build it because we saw specific ways that we could leverage AppDOS to make the most performance price discovery engine possible. If I'm allowed to keep going on those questions,
Is it very much aptos driven or is it somehow moved driven? For example, last week, we went live. I even choose the blockchain itself by myself. So I won't be a great benchmark.
Is it something that Iqonia is going to deliver on? Or is it very much kind of a one-chain objective? So let me say something about this. So while both we and actors use a move language, they use it in quite different ways.
So you cannot say it's just move and it doesn't matter whether it's your uptars. Now you have to look actually like you were saying at the particular blockchain in combination with move, which makes the value proposition here. So I don't want to say anything for or against compare
regarding Ski and Uptus, but I just want to point that out. That's a different flavors of move. So specifically Ski has kind of subset of move significantly and then added some other features on top of it, which makes it quite a different language than what we call move today. Yeah, Uptus.
Do not worry because all the technical people at PET just hated on the non-technical because despite being a move chain, it was indeed very different. So it was quite a quite some work. It was kind of some work.
It was great just singing to practice. What could then become move? And it's a move. I say move from up to space. Just kind of become the first one to make a move and do something at the end. And it was amazing to see and it's
Anyway, everyone should think about like maybe we're lucky working from kind of L ones or oracles where you need Traction because without traction you can easily see if there's no transaction. It's useless
So it was amazing. It's still amazing to see the dedication or kind of the focus people do on providing users and products. Yeah, I'll maybe add some more context on top of what Wolfgang said. It could be more specific for the experience.
So, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you#
We want to store the order book data and if someone comes in and places order, we want to modify the very head of the queue and settle the assets and leave that data just modified and storage. The sweet model, if I may provide my take on it, is that it's more like
Like a functional program in language kind of like Haskell. It's very like object oriented and the idea here is that you like pass all the data in sort of like as this object in a sense when you begin and that you can't really just like store it and modify it and then put it back in the way that works for us. And there are yeah, there are
Like certain reasons why people might want to do this for their particular application, but totally agree with Wolfgang that that is it's a very different model and even the like the syntax might be similar When you're an engineer like these these make you really rethink the way you're doing everything from the from the bottom up and as
Developing a Connie on top of a fast move has just been like such so straightforward all the technical design decisions that were made like on the development of a fast-based move like to us almost seem like they're made to make a Connie just run as fast as possible And and so I would I would say that yeah, we we definitely prefer that model like you look at memory
you change it a little bit and you just kind of leave it there rather than trying to like grab everything and pass it in and do something with it with your done. And that's why I was saying earlier in the podcast, like the TLDR while we chose Akani is because of Optimist and Concurrency and Dynamic Memory Allocation. And the Dynamic Memory Allocation part of that is what I'm describing is what really I think different sheets, these two architectures#
Unfortunately, I think that is all the time we have for it is a little past 11. I thank you so much for being here. Please check out a Coney up. Please check out Pits. And we'll, you know, you want to give one up that up to them.
I'll just say one thing. Oh here I have to see that go-to-life production day all together. So like yeah, just follow Pith, Ikonia. One day you're gonna get that
switch is out and it's going to be how could I call it a perpetual color of price fees and stuff so it's very much treated that's one thing that where I feel and personally I feel that
I get traction or we get product traction is people using it so just overall try using like try use whenever you could use a centralized product try using an app this one and very likely you'll get an
a better product of it. So just, just go Diff. That's my, that's my ending word. Followed play, good join out this code, go to question, but just, just go Dify. It's overall, that's where you'll get the most exposure to anything and you'll get the best product of all.
Thanks for having us. Come back with us and answer them. Akani out. And do tell me because I'll be around for Amsterdam. So do do ping-pong, do ping the Eptostime. We'll be around and yeah, let's just have an amazing Amsterdam one.
Woo! Everybody go! Thanks guys. See ya. Thank you so much for the time guys. Have a good day.