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Hot take arena 2
Recorded: Dec. 28, 2023 Duration: 4:28:38Space Recording
Full Transcription
All right.
What's up, UMFers?
We are back at it again with Hot Take Arena 2.
I don't know if we're going to reuse this name, but I couldn't think of anything better today.
Hopefully, my service is good.
Give me a thumbs up if it is because I'm in a new area.
Also, there's a bunch of cops outside, so hopefully they pass here in a second.
They're coming after us because they know the takes are about to be super hot tonight.
But look, hopefully everybody had a good day and did the things they needed to do.
Hopefully, everybody make money.
And if you want to come up on stage, click that request button in the bottom left-hand corner.
If you want to do me a favor, click that button in the bottom right-hand corner and give it a like, comment, or retweet.
It is the best way to support the space.
Because I've been up since 6 a.m. today in meetings all fucking day, and I'm just absolutely exhausted.
And I'm reaching that point of exhaustion where I'm just starting to get a bit delusional.
So I think the takes are going to be either extra smart or extra stupid, one or the other.
But we're going to make it work.
So before we bring up people on stage, I see you guys in the request.
I'll bring you up here in just a moment.
We're going to do a quick little price update before we get into everything.
Bitcoin up 2.85% today at $43,396.
Ethereum 9% up today.
Ethereum is back.
They doubted us and they doubted Vitalik, but we are back.
BNB also a huge winner over the past two days.
Another 12% up today to $324.
Seeing a lot of growth.
Solana down 4% today.
Still $104, and this is to be expected after such a crazy run.
I mean, it was going 5% to 10% a day for the past two weeks.
XRP up 4%.
Cardano also up almost 12% today to $0.65.
Doge up 6%.
I mean, a lot of gains across the board.
So crypto is mostly green today, which is always great to see.
Actually, Ethereum Classic even up 10% today, which is wild.
Ethereum Classic actually still has a fully diluted market cap.
A $4.7 billion.
And over the past 24 hours, has done $436 million in trading.
For anybody who may like it.
Ethereum Classic is, sorry, I was getting a call.
Ethereum Classic is the original Ethereum before the DAO hack or Ethereum in the early
days of ETH.
So that is actually the first ETH at Ethereum Classic.
Moving forward from there, I'm going to go check out some of these NFTs.
Jump over to OpenSea.
Sorry, I'm out of breath, too.
Just running around all over the place.
Okay.
In terms of the top chart, what do we have?
Zuki almost at 6 ETH, just trailing right under at 5.94, doing 3,400 ETH in trading volume
over the past 24 hours.
Bored Apes at 27.96.
1,800 ETH traded.
Mutant Apes in number 3, 5.4 ETH.
DGOD sitting at 3.3 ETH.
And Pudgies at 11.3.
I would not be surprised if Pudgies broke 12 very soon.
And also Pixelmon in the top trending charts at 1.8 ETH as well, which is really, really
interesting.
We're going to jump over to Magic Eden and look at a couple of these Solana NFTs.
So let's see what we're doing here.
Dude, these Fraganos are down to 8.7 SOL.
These things ran like 24 SOL.
Never listened to the cabal.
Mad Lads at 150 SOL.
Not surprising that we're seeing retracing across the board here with the Solana NFTs
as well.
And yeah, that's about it.
Tensorians at 97 and so on and so forth.
Even Ordinals seeing a pretty decent pullback.
Bitcoin Frogs at 0.29 Bitcoin, down from highs of almost 0.5 Bitcoin just a couple weeks
ago.
So pretty interesting stuff there.
And yeah, if you want to come up on stage to request, let's bring some people up.
All righty.
Let's get into it.
Lou, what's going on?
What's going on in Solana world?
How are you feeling today?
Dude, there's a lot going on.
A lot going on.
Here, let me go over to my notes.
I did a little write-up for today.
Some things to talk about that I was talking about on the morning show.
So here, pass it over to someone else and I'll give you a little breakdown.
Cool, cool, cool.
Warren, good to see you.
What's happening?
What are you thinking?
Dude, today was the 0.26 reveal for Opepin.
And it's actually kind of insane what Jack and Jalil did with this one because it's not
even tradable because people can't even evaluate it because the code is still kind of variable.
So, I mean, there's a space with board and DigitalOil and a bunch of others, you know, Opepin, WagmeKabal members.
And we were just trying to figure out in the open air how this thing should kind of evolve because basically, like, Opepin is not on-chain, you know, compared to Chex.
Like, Chex are immutable and on-chain.
So that's kind of just, like, done.
But Opepin, it's like, you know, especially for, like, a set like this.
I don't know if anyone, you know, Thread's not in here and stuff and whatnot.
So I don't want to, like, take up too much time.
But it's just really interesting.
I mean, you have two sides.
You have the art side, which basically, you know, it's like 26 characters in the alphabet.
So, like, the one of one is a two by two and it spells, like, a four-letter word.
And then, you know, you progress all the way to, like, the 40 editions.
And you have, like, a seven by seven grid, which is, like, 49 characters.
And you get to, like, create your own words and stuff.
So, like, most of the people, most of the collectors, like, anticipated going in that they'd have, like, the option if they, you know, revealed if they won to actually, like, pick what they want on it.
You know, and, like, either change it, like, at their discretion, like, based on this, like, set of words that Jack tweeted a couple days ago.
So, like, that was, like, either in, like, a mutable fashion where you could, like, use it as, like, a billboard, basically, to, like, send a message or whatever.
You know, obviously, like, just a word on an Opepin is just kind of like a layer.
But it's actually neither of that.
Right now, anybody in this space could literally go to the site, Opepin.art, and literally just graffiti anybody's Opepin.
So, it's like, if Bored Elon has four of these, you could literally go put whatever words you want out of this set on it.
And it will actually just, like, populate onto OpenSea.
And that was just a total wrinkle in everybody's expectations.
But based on the space today, it's like Jalil said that we could, like, you know, add lines to the code, basically, that would be able to, like, evolve this in a way that would just be more, like, community created, if that makes sense.
So, it's just kind of, you know, like, these things haven't been able to, nobody's, you know, selling them.
Nobody knows how to price them because it's, like, open-ended.
And for, like, this to be the last drop of the year for Opepin, it just kind of just, like, already has 2024, like, going to just, you know what I'm saying, from an NFT perspective.
So, I just wanted to share that context a lot.
You know, it's pretty dense.
But, you know, overall, it's just, like, it can't be valued.
It literally can't be valued.
Like, nobody, there's no consensus.
This, this sentiment is all over the place just because of how, like, open-ended it is.
So, you know, I'll, you know, be able to provide more information, you know, later.
But that's the Opepin scoop.
Appreciate it.
Appreciate that, Warren.
And we're talking cabal this, cabal that.
You want to know who the real Illuminati cabal is?
It's Jack Butcher and the Opepin MFers.
You guys, it's like a whole secret society going on over there.
But, no, much love to you, Warren, and also much love to the Opepin community.
It's still, I mean, undoubtedly, I think, I would have to say that Pudgies and Opepin are the two top projects.
In my opinion, if you're looking for that category, I know they're not really in the same category.
But I think they're the two top projects on ETH of 2023.
And I would actually even say, I would even go further to say not just Opepins, but, like, the Jack Butcher ecosystem and Pudgies are, in my opinion, the two top projects in terms of price performance and just, like, basically staying out of any sort of, like, drama or taboo.
Like, they've just kept their nose clean for the most part.
And, yeah, I mean, just, like, they're doing a really great job.
So, it's awesome to see.
I will always regret selling 11 Opepins at .03, thinking that I was a fucking genius because I 3X'd.
I bought them at .01.
I'm like, all right, this is a 3X.
This is a 300% gain.
I'm an amazing trader.
And then they just fucking flew to over in ETH.
And then, you know, they've consolidated since then.
But I do have no Pappin in that.
You know, Lee, tell me about it.
This is the last thing I'm going to say, and then I'm just going to give it to everyone else.
But, you know, like, at the beginning of the year, I mean, checks were $8.
You know what I'm saying?
So, I mean, like, if I didn't have, like, I'll call it, like, a proximity bias, where it's just, like, if, you know, if you're hanging around, like, you know, this, like, the VV ecosystem the past two, three years, you know, it's just, like, low-key, chill.
There's not too much hype in it.
It's kind of insulated from the NFT space.
So, it's just, like, none of us really thought that much about just, like, being greedy, you know, and just, you know, totally minting as many as we could.
And then, like, at the tail end, that's where, like, the last hour of the open edition, people really just started minting in the hundreds.
But, you know, after the checks mint ended, there was, like, a spillover effect where it was, like, nobody else could, like, mint checks or whatever, and the price just kept going up.
So, like, these alpha groups and stuff were looking for, like, some more Jack Butcher stuff.
They're just, you know, they had the itch, you know.
So, they actually, like, spilled over into, like, one of my collections that I did, which is just, like, a network state derivative, basically.
And that, like, ran up, like, 20 ETH in, like, 20 minutes on, like, January 4th.
And I didn't even think to just rotate that into checks or let alone Opepyn.
And it wasn't, like, you know, Jack and I were, like, like, you know what I'm saying?
It's, like, because if there's a situation like that, it's, like, you would think where people are early and have information would be able to just accumulate these massive things.
But the nature of the mint for checks and Opepyn were just, like, not about that at all.
You know what I'm saying?
So, it just, like, like how you said you sold, you know, like, for a 3X, right?
But just, like, based on the capital amount, it wasn't as lucrative as, like, holding it to, like, 1 plus ETH.
Like, checks were trading at, like, 3.5, like, they're trading at, like, 3,500, like, for the floor price.
And it was an $8 mint.
So, if you minted 20, 30 or whatever, you know what I'm saying?
Just, like, those types of returns in the first, like, two or three weeks of the year is just ridiculous, you know?
It was wild.
And not only did the โ and I will always give Jack, you know, to the moon and back credit for this.
I mean, not only did he make a shit ton of money for its holders, obviously himself, the project did really well.
But for so many other artists in the space โ we were talking about this the other day โ that were able to, you know,
Jack Butcher reinvigorated this open edition meta, which had been around for a while but had, frankly, gotten stale, a little bit boring.
And the way that Jack approached it, I thought, was just interesting.
And it was at the beginning of the year, the right time, in the right way.
And I really liked that royalties were set to 2.5%.
It felt very non-greedy.
And, yeah, people fuck with that.
They really like that sort of thing.
And so do I.
So it's not a surprise at all to me that it's done as well as it has.
Obviously, if I knew at the time, like, in retrospect, I would have held those things.
But, dude, Jack's the GOAT.
And a ton of people and a ton of artists did really well because of him.
So, yeah.
In my opinion, he just โ 2023 was his year.
He had an absolutely killer year.
And speaking of people who had killer years, Lou, your hand is up.
We're going straight to you.
What is the update?
Warren, I appreciate you so much.
Lou, what is the update?
The Solana side, tell me what's going on.
What's the alpha?
Dude, I actually โ so I got a lot of things here from the docket this morning.
Warren, thank you.
I'm actually not very familiar with the Opepin community.
It was kind of nice to get a little bit of the alpha and learn a little bit more.
Definitely need to do a little bit more of a deep dive here in the future.
But I got a couple analytics, a couple little announcements here.
On the Solana side of things, with a nice healthy retest, as we saw a lot of upside action over the past couple weeks,
Sol does flip BTC in 24-hour liquidations as we hit $15.9 million in liquidations.
There was $190 million in liquidations on leveraged Bitcoin trades over the past 48 hours.
We have the SolSniper NFT marketplace who are moving marketplace fees indefinitely.
We have Solana TVL breaking $1.5 billion.
MicroStrategy has acquired 14,620 BTC over November 30th to December 26th.
That's worth $615 million.
Over half a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin acquired in a month timeframe.
Really exciting to see.
Binance opened up spot trading pairs for several USDC pairs.
Sol USDC, AVAX USDC, ORDA USDC.
Really exciting to see, especially as AVAX has been seeing a huge boost in their DeFi ecosystem.
So I'm super excited for that.
Solana has officially flipped Ethereum in the 24-hour and 7-day DEX volume,
which is just fucking crazy because one day's cool, two days cool, three days cool.
But it's just really showing a sign of solidified strength amongst the Solana ecosystem to see seven days of strength.
We have the VC Jason from Twist Startups in the All In podcast calling Solana illegal, imaginary, and money with no real-world use case.
LOL.
He got beasted by many people on the timeline.
Our local lord and savior, OXMert, came in and absolutely ratioed him.
We have Solana flipping ETH yet again on the 24-hour NFT volume, $14 million as opposed to ETH at $10 million.
PancakeSwap's Cake Token has surged 54% after a $34 million token burn yesterday.
But Sootheby's had a $35 million in digital art sales this year.
And then Chan Pang Zhao finishes the year off with a net worth of $24 billion higher than before.
I don't exactly know who that is, so I'm sorry for throwing that one in there.
And on December 29th...
I think that's CZ, bro.
I don't know how you pronounce it.
Chan Pang Zhao?
Yeah.
That's CZ, dude.
I just know him by...
I know him by codename CZ.
Damn.
December 29th is the deadline for all spot Bitcoin ETF filings.
And the SEC will have their ruling on the ETFs by January 10th.
And that was a lot to take in.
Yeah.
Well, I'll say that, Lou.
You know, you're saying Solana flipped ETH in trading volume, DEX volume.
All I'm going to say is, how do you know?
Did you count it yourself?
We just take these...
I'm just saying, you're just taking these...
No, DeFi Llama.
DeFi Llama.
These are, like, analytics.
Oh, so when...
Oh, so, like, he counted it himself type shit?
Yeah, like, all the thing is, like, who's actually counted...
He went through and counted, like, 14 million transactions over the past, like, two days.
I was just feeling a little frisky.
Look, you know the saying for crypto is don't trust, verify.
Is anybody verifying any of this stuff?
I don't even know...
Dude, go...
Dude, what the fuck?
I work hard on...
Are you...
You son of a fucking bitch.
I'm never giving you my...
Clean it up, Todd.
Are you ungrateful little fuck?
You know how hard I work on that every day?
No, I...
I gotta say...
I scroll through CoinGecko, too, sir.
Yeah, nobody's...
CoinGecko, is anybody actually counting this themselves?
Now, secondly...
By the way, I love this new feature that Space has implemented called Listen Anonymously.
Like, I fucking love it, dude.
I've been listening to Spaces for the first time in forever.
Because, like, sometimes I just want to be low-key and I want to be in the cut.
And I don't want to...
You know what I mean?
Like, they invite you up and shit like that.
I like to be able to listen.
And I was listening to your space earlier today, Lou.
And, I mean, you were crushing on the numbers.
I actually thought the space was fire.
And Frisk was dropping some crazy, crazy alpha.
Really, really impressed with what you guys are doing over there.
Seriously.
I think it was the first time in a while it was just like a full show.
So, shout out to you.
And for anybody who doesn't know, Lou is running the...
I don't want to call it the No Fluff Podcast, but the No Fluff Space.
And you guys should definitely check it out.
So, shout out to Lou.
Secondly, in regards to Jason from the All In Podcast.
Can somebody give me the...
I feel like, Naveen, you might know the answer to this.
Why does everybody hate this Jason guy?
I understand that he's unlikable, pretentious, all of these things.
But, like, why...
Dude, his Twitter at's Jason.
Like, that's all we gotta fucking say.
Like, honestly, that's a red flag right there.
Yeah, how did he get that?
Someone here had a connection at Twitter.
But, Naveen, do you know anything about this Jason guy and, like, why he's maybe so disliked?
Yeah, I mean, he's kind of like...
He's a super OG VC.
You know, he's been a VC forever.
His claim to fame is that he was, like, seed round investor in Uber.
And, you know, he's one of those guys that, you know, touts his luck as professional acumen.
You know, he's, like, one of those kind of guys who's like, well, I'm the seed investor in Uber, so therefore I am God.
You know, he's kind of, like, got that kind of vibe.
And, you know, look, he, like, writes a lot of checks.
He makes a lot of investments.
I've never really, you know, worked with him.
So I can't really, like, you know, I don't want to, you know, say anything, like, negative or derogatory about him.
Because I don't really know him.
And that's just not, like, a reasonable or rational thing to do.
But what I can say is that he has been, you know, filleted on the timeline historically for, like, Uber stuff and whatever else.
But, you know, look, I mean, the guy has gotten into a lot of really good deals.
He's obviously a part of the All In podcast with the other dudes.
And, you know, he's got, like, he's, like, he's a brash, aggressive venture capitalist.
And that's just what he is.
He just got out of jail as well.
No, he didn't.
He just got out of jail.
No, he didn't go to jail.
That's bullshit.
Mark, you can't just say things that are completely false and say them with confidence.
Look, well, maybe Jason will join us on the space one day.
Who knows?
I doubt it, but maybe.
Who knows?
Look, I'll throw it over to OG.
OG, what's going on?
What do you think?
Yeah, what's good, cream team?
How we doing?
How are you feeling?
All right, I just.
You can't.
You can't start it.
I literally have to just.
I'm lost.
What's the problem?
What do you mean?
What's the way?
You said, what's a cream team?
Is this really how we're starting today?
I know.
I mean, I was.
No, go ahead, please.
But please.
I'm ready for the take.
I would love to.
You know what I'm saying?
If you didn't like meet me.
But like, yeah.
I was just saying what's good.
I don't really have some crazy take.
Except for, you know.
ETH's going to be fucking dead.
Yuga's.
Going to bridge to Solana.
All the apes.
And D-Gods are also going to bridge to Solana.
And ETH's going to be donezo.
That's my take.
Okay, here's a good question.
Does anybody on stage thumbs up or thumbs down?
I feel like I already know Naveen's answer.
But Storm, you can't.
That's kind of lame.
D-God bridge back to Solana.
ETH is over.
That's really lame to be honest.
All right, hold it.
Morf, you're really lame.
Yeah.
Okay, let me just drive this fucking boat.
Look, thumbs up or thumbs down to the people on stage who actually think, thinks that ETH
is going to fail.
And maybe not tomorrow or next year, but over a long enough period of time that ETH is just
done.
Goes away forever.
Thumbs up if you believe that ETH will be destroyed by the forces that be.
Thumbs down if you think ETH will win.
So, Jack and Naveen and OG all think that ETH is going to be destroyed.
Well, I guess that's not what it is.
Look, destroyed is like a really strong word.
I think what I would do if I were you to change it, do you think ETH will be relevant forever?
And I just don't think he'll be relevant forever.
That's what I would say.
What about Vitalik though?
Won't he be sad?
Dude, that's a super-based take.
That is super-based.
I actually agree with Naveen 100%.
I think that there will always be a store of value in ETH.
I just don't think it'll perform as well as some of the other assets that we have right
in front of us.
This is the most fucked up conversation I've ever had.
Dude, shut the fuck up, bro.
It's not even about things that currently exist.
It's not even about things that currently exist.
You know, it's just about the fact that, you know, people, generally speaking, think that
the way the world works now is the way that the world will always work, right?
So we think that, oh, you know, in the future world, everyone's just going to use EVM and
all the same problems that exist today with EVM will just become the norm in the future.
Like, we do that with everything.
You know, we've done that historically with every technology platform.
If, you know, people who used MySpace, believe it or not, never thought that MySpace would
be disrupted by Facebook.
Seriously.
You can ask anyone who was a hardcore MySpace person, and they would tell you, oh, my God,
MySpace is way the fuck better than Facebook.
You can customize the pages.
You can do this, that, and the other thing.
So I just have been through many up and down cycles, you know, in sort of the broader tech
industry.
And I just learned that it's foolish to assume that what we all have today is guaranteed to
be the dominant thing in the future.
It's actually, like, it's actually more probable that it won't be.
And this is also true for stocks.
Like, if you go look in the history of, like, the S&P 500, you know, companies or the
Fortune 100, and you ask yourself, like, companies that were, you know, top companies in the
Fortune 100, you know, a couple decades ago, most of those companies don't even fucking
exist.
Like, where the fuck is Kodak?
And where the fuck is, like, some of these other companies that were giant companies in
the past?
You know, literally, there are people in the past who thought that Kodak would continue
to be, like, one of the biggest things in the world forever, right?
That's just how people think, because at the time, it's hard to predict the future.
So I just think it's really important for everyone to just, like, go in and stay curious
and stay humble and say, like, okay, is Ethereum going to be the thing in the future?
Who the fuck knows?
Honestly, probably not.
It has to earn it.
Look, I don't know why you're saying all these bad things about Kodak.
His last album was incredible.
Yeah, hey, man.
Kodak was hella cool.
Secondly, actually, I don't even know what his last, I don't remember when he dropped his
last album.
But, you know, I think it's, look, I think it's a fair take.
And I think saying, is it going to be relevant or not, is a much better question than if it's
going to be destroyed.
Because Ethereum Classic, which is the definition of irrelevant and probably will never be used,
did 500 million trading volume today.
You know what I mean?
It's kind of unbelievable when you think about it.
And still has an FDB of almost $4 billion.
Yeah, but wait a second.
The volume is like probably done by market makers on all of the exchanges.
We just like not even need the real volume.
No, I agree with that.
But I guess the point that I'm trying to make is like nothing will ever truly, truly like
go to zero.
There's always going to be some sort of activity.
But in terms of like real relevant use, I mean, look, there's many chains that don't
have any real relevant use and just are used to to wash trade or move money back and
forth or whatever it is.
I mean, this happens all the time.
Well, I think Ethereum is just not sexy anymore.
I mean, like it's been sexy before after Bitcoin, but now it's just like a big barge that's
like very, very slow.
It's not nimble.
And it's the biggest issue Ethereum is facing is fragmentation, where it has to support
layer twos just to be relevant.
And it's not helpful where those layer twos are actually controlled by company-like entities,
which are not decentralized.
And essentially Ethereum becomes the settlement layer.
But if most of the transactions move to layer twos, we're back to being non-decentralized.
And that type of fragmentation is actually not great for crypto.
Well, what if, okay, so I'm not layer two expert by any means, but like, what if there is
like a world in which an L like decentralizes the sequencers and all these different things,
like can that be a possible solution to this L2 centralization issue?
So, so ultimately it isn't, it isn't about a technology.
It's about simply the fact that humans motivation is linked to, to making money.
And the best way to make money is to centralize an application layer on top of Ethereum.
And that's how you control your narrative, control the money flow revenues and so on and
so forth.
So it's almost impossible to, to, to have a Vitalik's mind set, uh, by a layer two designer
because they're literally, they feel like they're developing an application that they should
be controlling anyway.
And so the point is that it doesn't help Ethereum, but basically saying, yeah, we're, we're not
fast, but Hey, uh, here's all those other application layers that are faster.
But in reality, what's happening is those layer two protocols and systems in networks is no
different than, and, uh, basically an exchange that's centralized.
So exchanges are fast because they're not really trading, uh, in a decentralized manner.
The settlement is basically like, you know, a database, a lot of it is very similar to layer
twos.
And so Ethereum is, is catering to those acceleration layers in attempt to make itself more relevant
versus Solana, for example.
And that's, I would say is a problem for, uh, for the upcoming year.
Do you think there's any legitimacy or valiantness to this aspect that Ethereum is pretty heavily
committed to at least attempting to be the most decentralized main net they can?
I mean, like, is there something to be said there where sure, maybe they don't receive
the level of adoption in terms of Solana or whatever it might be, but it still has its
use.
Do you think that's a take that you could agree with or, or no?
So, so relatively speaking, there's definitely going to be a lot of use.
The problem is that everything in crypto is relative.
Like for example, a lot of people never ever invest in Bitcoin because they see it as an
outdated old technology with a giant market cap.
That's not going to move too much.
And that's why they don't buy Bitcoin.
Now Ethereum is running into the same problem.
Um, it's been around too long.
Uh, it's, it was cool before, but now it's just too slow in the market gap, but the app's
too large and people are gravitating towards other solutions that are just faster and more
interesting.
Like, like, like for example, you can buy a shitload of Solana NFTs with like a single
click and you, you pay nothing and just having, you can, you should just have more fun there
than you would on Ethereum.
And, uh, and again, this is, this is all about market fragmentation.
So Ethereum cannot change itself because it's heavily decentralized and any decision that
they have to make are difficult to implement where the newcomers are starting from scratch.
They're learning what not to do by looking at Ethereum and basically using it as a punching
bag to make themselves look better.
And, and they, they have the right to do so.
And actually it's kind of like, kind of obvious.
As you look at any white paper out there, you see how everybody compares its TPS to Ethereum
and compares themselves to the pro to the consensus protocols.
It's just so easy to design a better system when you're designing it from scratch.
Ethereum is in flight.
It has difficult time disassembling itself without losing its cohesiveness.
So that's, that's the biggest problem that I see.
I think there are a couple like really, really, really insightful things.
That, um, Jack just said.
So one of the things he said is fun, you know, like at the end of the day, we've talked
about this many times, but the primary use case for these protocols is speculation.
So, you know, people are naturally going to gravitate to where it's just more fun to speculate,
you know, which Sky Casino is like more fun to use.
Right.
And, and, you know, if it's easier and more fun for some people to do that on Solana, then
they'll do that there.
If it's easier and more fun for them to do on an Arbitrum, then they'll do it there.
And really like, that's kind of the level of, of competition.
You know, the second thing is that Jack mentioned is that all these protocols are killing themselves
to compare themselves on very particular metrics, right?
Like TPS as an example, this is no different to how, uh, you know, uh, Windows computer
manufacturers used to compete on, you know, things like megahertz of the CPU or, you know,
other, other sort of like arguably vanity metrics.
Right.
And then the company that broke the full, the mold there was Apple.
Apple started to like not compete on technical specifications as much.
They've kind of gotten back to that now, now that they're in there, they're developing their
own Silicon, but historically they, they actually like stopped doing that.
You know, and in fact, if you look at iPhone marketing, the iPhone, they don't really, you
know, necessarily advertise directly how much, for example, Ram, you know, the iPhone has,
right?
Like if everyone knows how much it has, anyone can, you know, it's obvious, it's easy to go
figure it out, but it's not part of the marketing message.
Right.
So, so you have, you have a bunch of really interesting things.
And then the final thing, Jackson, though, it's like really, really insightful too, is
that, uh, systems that are in flight that are decentralized, more decentralized and have
lots and lots and lots of like ecosystem partners, you know, imagine how many different
like, uh, you know, products, tools, companies interoperate with Ethereum.
It is like literally moving a fucking like aircraft carrier group to try to like make any changes.
Like it is the hardest thing to change because now you've got to convince all of these people
to invest engineering resources into any like little change you make and staying up to date
with like whatever is currently the standard.
And that's like really, really difficult to do.
Um, and if you're new and you can be a lot more nimble, you don't have that same, uh,
baggage, you know, uh, uh, alongside.
So, you know, definitely some really, really insightful, uh, points from Jack.
Appreciate you, Naveena.
And appreciate you, Jack, too.
Both of you guys just like not to fucking glaze you guys right now, but I've learned just
a ton, especially over the last year.
Um, and as OG would said, what's up to the cream team, which is still the craziest intro I've
ever heard anybody say.
Somebody commented that is that's my new favorite intro, please.
Can that not be anybody's favorite intro?
I want to throw it quickly over to, to more more.
If you've been listening to me, you've been listening to, to Jack.
I mean, what do you think about this L2 fragmentation, the liquidity of the sequencer?
What do you think?
I think like we had quite like good example of, um, like a lot of people like to compare
stuff in this market, especially when price going up, price going down, uh, one doing
perform better than the other one.
And, uh, but when it comes to like talk about, oh, uh, Solana going to destroy Ethereum,
Ethereum going to destroy something else.
It's just like, it's not right.
It's like, it's like the conversation where when we're talking about how many people feel
secure being on ETH or anything like that, like you cannot compare because pretty much
if you compare Solana with Ethereum, you're like, oh, Solana is so much better.
Well, it is, but it also has like this big amount of relevancy, uh, with how people feel
secure on which chain better.
Um, knowing that FTX pretty much still related, uh, have whole, uh, a lot of supplies of Solana,
what's going to happen in the future, blah, blah, blah.
And then price going to switch up that narrative.
And so I think it's a, it's a big mistake to just like point fingers that Ethereum is not
a thing anymore, which is like people feel more secure being on Ethereum than any other
L2 chain.
Uh, so it's just, just my opinion.
Like no one's going to destroy anyone.
Just, yeah.
I actually think that's a, that's a pretty good take.
That was the most base take I've heard Morph give in a while.
I was about to say, I was like, man, Morph give in a while.
No, it's, it's one of those days.
Can I finish?
Wait, hold on.
It's one of those days, those days where you have this like, like stupidest topic ever.
And then people just like talking about it.
Like it's some kind of like a big deal in the market at a moment.
Why can't we just like enjoying the price right now without having the most autistic topic
ever you could have, you know, I look, I, I have six hours to fill.
So it's like, when it's like you talk about Orinals and okay, hold up.
We got an Orinals enjoyer up on stage.
I mean, I believe you could have just talked about better topic than just saying, so a lot
are going to destroy.
If you think about how lame it is, like just, you know, you, okay.
I was talking about a hypothetical.
Okay.
Secondly.
Yeah.
I mean, who knows one thing could destroy.
Oh, one thing could destroy another.
Anyway, look, I'll throw it.
Coins going up, going down, go up.
It has correction.
It's this and that.
And it does proven or like pave the narrative of a lot of people think it's the tech now
going to be so much better than other chain, specifically Ethereum and stuff.
Well, yeah, it's because what Solana did so much perform so much better than any other L2 we
see.
So that's going to raise a lot of question and, and ideas and opinions.
And so we'll, we'll see if Solana is going back down.
People are just going to, you know, going back to where they came from, you know, gamble.
So, well, you said something I think is important and it definitely cannot be ignored is that
when price does move significantly, that makes people bullish, whether something is significant
or not.
And I'll give you one example of something that happened recently.
And by the way, this project could be great.
Who knows?
Maybe the project is phenomenal and fantastic.
Um, but like this frog on this thing that pumped like 24, everyone's like, this is the new
blue chip of soul, whatever.
Maybe it is.
I have no idea, but now it's, it's dumped back down to eight and everyone's like, oh,
I can pump and dump all influencer pump, all these different things.
So it just, that's how the narrative changes.
The timeline is so, uh, essentially bipolar in a sense.
And I think that's fine because humans change their opinions fast.
It's just like, especially when influenced by outside forces.
Um, so I'm not mad at it.
And I actually think Solana getting to where it is now in terms of price is very bullish
for crypto as a whole, because it shows that these things can survive even with fuck shit
like FTX happening.
Like that is very, to me, just bullish for crypto as a whole, that these things can make
it through situations.
Yeah.
Let's say, let's say one day you wake up to a news, like FTX gonna, uh, unload some of,
uh, Solana supply and going to pay back, pay back creditors with those, uh, Solana and
stuff like you're going to think different, you know, you're, you're going to think,
they're different when, that's what you think of themselves.
So they've, FTX, so they've been, I mean, I mean, you will never know what the future
holds.
So rather than just say, oh, Solana going to destroy Ethereum, which is like the lamest
autistic way to say on Twitter.
All right, all right, all right.
Okay.
Okay.
Look, we got to get the, welcome to space, everybody.
Welcome to ETH failed, otherwise known as hot take arena too.
Um, if you're enjoying anything about the conversation, click that button in the bottom
right-hand corner, like comment, retweet, because SPF's fate depends on it.
Um, secondly, um, FTXs are all Ameda.
I don't know who is actually the leader of this investment, but their investment in Anthropic
might end up paying fucking everybody's money back.
That shit went a billion jillion X.
So kind of interesting to see there, but look, I want to throw it to the hands.
I want to throw it to the hands, but look, it's important to say, you know, it's a good
day to celebrate for ETH.
We're up, but also it's very interesting to see that BNB is just, I mean, just cruising
over the past two days from like two 40, two 30 up to like three 30.
Now they're doing their big burn and I'm seeing a lot of narrative shift and people saying,
look, PancakeSwap is where the real shit coins are.
So I would not be surprised if in a week and a half, we just see so many people migrate
over there and start trading shit coins there.
And it makes you wonder.
Dude, they just burned 34 million of their own token.
Dude, they've been doing this.
This is not something you should surprise me because I'm just telling you something the
past three years.
More flatly finished.
Wait, wait, hold on.
Let me finish.
No, let me try that.
You should, you should not be surprised that BNB has been going up or the first coin
that let's say if the market dip, it's the first coin that bounced the quickest.
If, if you know that, like you literally like just can make off of, can make money off of
just like what BNB pounds whenever the market dip.
Well, BNB for a long, I mean, I've been holding BNB for a long time.
Haven't touched it or anything.
Um, I mean, it was 500 or 600 bucks, whatever it is all the way down, almost up 200 and
it sat almost untouched while everything else pumped.
It did not move even a couple percent up or down.
Um, and yeah, obviously the sentiment has changed significantly over that and it's starting to
go crazy, but I'm not too educated on BSC or how that whole ecosystem works.
And it's just really interesting to me that BNB, I think it technically started as an
ERC 20 token and they kind of turned it into its own thing, which is just wild.
They're cooking up some stuff.
Uh, there's a lot of games building on Binance at the moment, Binance Lab.
I'm not really sure about that too, but yeah, they do have been cooking up some stuff for
the past six months.
So I wanted to mention real quick about BNB, the layer one tokens that perform the best
are the ones where the BNB team, for example, can actually change and control the narrative.
So whenever the market is surprised due to a burn or if the burn is actually scheduled
by a human or some sort of a decision-making committee that actually causes the, well,
first of all, it causes the token to underperform in the lack of news.
And then when those news come out, it just goes to the moon.
It is not unlike a security where a company manipulates its shares.
And when I say manipulates, I don't mean it in a bad way.
The earnings come out or they make a decision like to buy back the shares and the shares
rally hard, those type of things.
Now, Ethereum can never do that.
Oh, they're definitely sketchy.
Let me tell you.
They're definitely sketchy.
Because if you look at how BNB performs, it has never been like, it always do like this,
always chop.
I think he's trying to bring Naveen up right now.
We're having a couple issues.
I know there's no shot he did that on purpose.
Just getting some technical difficulties here.
That definitely was not me, but maybe it was, since Sleep's not talking.
So real quick to finish my take on this, Ethereum would, comparatively to BNB, would have a hard
time doing any sort of a pump like this, because Vitalik does not call the shots.
It's actually a foundation.
And they can't just, like, for example, say, oh, you know, we just decided to burn a shitload
of Ethereum and cause it to pump, where a BNB is really controlled by a private company.
This actually is an exchange.
And they can do whatever the hell they want.
And so whenever it pleases them, they can manipulate the market however they like.
And that's why there are pumps like that.
Well, look, we'll throw it over to some of these hands here.
I want to go quickly over to Emlo.
Emlo, what's up?
What's up?
I made you a picture for the Cream Team.
I pinned it to the top.
All right.
That's.
Okay.
Okay.
OG, what's up?
Hey, what's up, Cream Team?
Let's get right into it.
All right.
First thing I want to talk about.
Yo, I like the BNB conversation.
The what?
I like the.
Yo, Jonah.
I'm talking.
I like the BNB conversation.
If you've been around long enough, then you know that most of the crazy-ass shit coins
that didn't come from ETH, they were on BNB.
That's what people make crazy games.
What's the relevancy in your topic?
All right, you are Matt first.
I have been up since six o'clock in the morning.
I can't do the interrupting, the back and forth.
I mean, if Double Ape comes up, I'll make an exception for him.
But outside of that, outside of that, we got to go just keep this in order.
I'm telling you, I can't do it.
We got to keep it in order.
Go back to OG.
OG, please, to finish your joke.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, BNB, absolute insane fucking gains on shit coins.
Happy to see it up.
Last thing I'll say is, I've said it once, I've said it twice.
I'll say it until your ears bleed.
Solana's tooling shits on every other tooling in the market.
The reason being, yo, Morph, big sis, stop talking.
I think it just completely shits on all the other tooling for most other chains.
Because, yo, when they were down bad, down horrendous, they locked in and made fucking phantom fantabulous.
They made goddamn using, hold up, they made crazy-ass fucking lending protocols, which are fire.
Shout out to SharkyFi.
But, I will say, in terms of, like, ETH's tooling, bro, MetaMask is the most unsexy thing I've probably ever seen in my life.
Trying to onboard somebody who's new to crypto to that is, like, it's going to be their 13th reason.
It's going to be their 13th reason.
Okay, OG, I'm just going to give you a little bit of correction so you stop.
So, dude, I 100% agree.
The phantom user interface is just so much more user-friendly.
Like, I could literally onboard my grandmother to that.
MetaMask, there's just a lot of, it's not easy, man.
You have to, like, add the networks that you're using.
There's just a lot of ways that you can mess up when you're using MetaMask.
So, I 100% agree.
Leap's tired.
Leap's tired.
Man, I got you.
I'll help you out a little bit.
I just want to hand it over quickly.
Everyone always complains about MetaMask.
Tell me what about MetaMask is so bad.
I agree that phantom is probably the superior wallet for most people.
But tell me exactly about MetaMask.
What makes it so bad?
I haven't updated it in a while.
Okay, but, like, besides that, what specifically about it do you guys not know?
Just everything.
Like, even in browser window interaction, the UI itself is just so slow.
Like, even without sending a transaction, it takes me five seconds to bring it up in my browser.
I click on phantom, it pops up immediately.
And it's annoying that I have to, like, live with it.
And that's why I switched to Rabi wallet.
That's, like, 100 times better.
So, as someone who never uses another network, like, I, when I was trying to figure out how
to, like, on, put the polygon network on there, use Arbitrum and these other networks on the
MetaMask wallet, it wasn't easy at first.
Like, that was the learning curve.
On phantom, it's just so easy.
Like, it's there, it's built in, and it, I don't know, it just seems seamless.
Although, I'm just a dumb dinosaur, though.
So, like, it's a give and a take.
Well, look, I want to throw it to Icebags, because I've not taught Icebags in a while.
Icebags, good to see you.
I mean, what do you think about all this?
Bro, I just got to say this.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you.
Okay, because it's not like, it's not showing the voice thing.
So, I just got to say this.
Leap, when did you turn into a fucking sex symbol?
Because I started seeing pictures of you from Art Basel, and I was like, holy fuck, I might.
Wait, you might?
Don't finish that sentence.
This is the best take ever.
Like, my brain IQ just, like, went up after listening to that.
Yeah, I mean, that's usually what happens when I speak.
Wait, Icebags is definitely about to bring Leap to the cream team.
Oh, dude, OG, shut the fuck up.
Okay, Icebags, I'll ask you this.
Honestly, anything come up, OG's mouth is out of pocket.
There's no way you're saying that.
I'm about to kick both of you guys.
I literally, I literally about to kick both of you guys.
I'll throw back to Icebags here.
Icebags, there's been a lot of conversation recently, obviously, about ETH versus Soul, so on and so forth.
But as far as I know, you were one of the first projects to, like, really, like, publicly say, like, we're multi-chain, omni-chain, however you want to put it.
I mean, do you have any opinions on a lot of these Soul versus ETH conversations?
Is what you think?
Yeah, so, I mean, without getting into omni-chain immediately, like, Soul and ETH, just those two, I think is a very, like, interesting conversation.
I've been an ETH guy for five years, and especially, like, when the NFT market went crazy, and I was paying, like, sometimes, like, $200 a transaction.
This shit's fucking crazy, right?
Definitely turns people off.
Soul, you know, the way it's going now, and the way that people are, like, turning to Soul and kind of realizing, like, hey, we can do the same shit at, like, a fraction of the cost is a major advantage to Soul.
And I just got to give a shout-out to all the Solana guys that went through, like, all the shit, because when we decided to finally launch our final chain on Soul, it took a lot of, it was, it was, there was a lot of back and forth, right?
Because it was, like, Soul's dead, Soul may never come back, and we decided to launch on Soul anyway, and it's been a success, but, like, the comeback story of Soul is fucking phenomenal.
So, shout-out to every, all the Soul guys, all the Soul people that stuck around, because, like, you deserve it.
Major fucking props, like, you've been punched in the fucking dick, like, 92 times, and to stick around for triple-digit Soul again is, like, impressive.
Dude, it feels so good to sell all these ETHMFers that called us poor, my Solana triple-digits, and have them buy my JPEGs for 100x.
Like, man, nothing has ever felt better.
Same guys that dunked on me for fucking months are buying my bags like I said they would.
All right, we won't get too deep into that.
Go ahead, Leap, I'll give you a show.
Well, look, I do gotta say, Solana's still got a long way to go to get back to all-time highs, you know what I mean?
Dude.
We have a long way to go in a lot of, we're halfway there!
Fuck all-time highs.
Look, fuck all-time highs.
You guys came back from zero.
Like, literally, SBF was about to stick you in his pocket and take you to prison, and you fucking came out of that,
and here you are at 100 and whatever it is now, like, it's fucking phenomenal, dude.
Like, celebrate that, be excited about that.
That's a major accomplishment.
I actually agree.
I was saying this earlier in this phase.
I think overall, just bullish on crypto, bullish for crypto, that a chain could get railed as hard as Solana did,
and everything that happened with FTX.
And I know everyone's very confident now, and everyone's like, yeah, I was buying at $8,
and apparently everybody was buying at $8, and I don't believe any of you.
But at that time, if you listened to the sentiment in not only the timeline, but in Twitter spaces, things of that nature,
bro, dude, everyone was calling for Solana to go to zero.
Outside of the hardcore Maxis, dude, everyone who's now celebrating it, so many people were like,
this is fucked, it's going to zero, blah, blah, blah.
Wait, did you know there's a lot named after you?
Dude, there's no shot, bro.
My people, my squad, my group, we knew, bro.
Okay, I won't lie.
I didn't get any $8 Sol, but I got $12 Sol, I got $16 Sol, and I got some $18 Sol that I am so happy with.
I'm sorry.
Let me tell you a story, and he may not be really happy with this, but it doesn't matter because he's a fucking G,
and he's like one of the kings of crypto.
But when we were talking about going to Sol for the final chain for Pandas, there was a lot of debate about it, right?
Like a lot.
Internally, externally, it was like, eh, maybe we should just launch the final chain on ETH and be done with it.
It'll sell out easily, yada, yada, yada, yada.
And I was like, no, I really want to fucking go to Seoul because we originally had planned to go to Seoul.
Like, it was on the original fucking game plan to go to Seoul.
And I hit up Primo from Layer Zero, and I'm like, hey, like, are you guys still building out the bridge to Solana?
Like, I think we're ready to go to Solana.
And he looked at me, and he's like, yo, he's like, I don't know.
And when fucking those guys are like, I don't know, that tells you a lot, right?
So it was like everybody was like really fucking up in the air about going to Solana, about doing anything with Solana, on Solana, whatever.
And I was like, fuck it.
We rolled the dice, and I was like, we're going to fucking Solana.
And you guys build the bridge later, whatever.
Now they're obviously going to build the bridge.
But, like, that was a big fucking deal, dude.
When I'm talking to the biggest players in the game, and they're like, man, I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, that's a pretty fucking crazy thing.
And for y'all to stick around the entire time and, like, just be there, it's fucking huge.
Dude, I mean, the Solana community deserves every penny of gains that come their way, especially the ones that stuck it out.
And I'm telling you, when I went to Breakpoint, it really hit me that this is a different type of community.
And I mean, this was, I've had two tweets that did pretty well over the past month.
And one of them was essentially that ETH has no community, the asset itself, and that Solana does.
Now, obviously, that's sensationalizing the topic.
Ethereum is significantly bigger.
And when Ethereum was smaller, there was a very hardcore, like, hey, we're all just on ETH.
But if you want to look at it right now, on ETH, my opinion is, is that if you're in different NFT communities and you share no mutuals, you're typically not going to say that you're in the same community.
But on Solana, you're typically part of the community just for using the chain.
That is my opinion on it.
That is the sentiment that I feel.
And, yeah, I mean, the Solana community is just different.
They're different, different.
So, Icebags, I appreciate this story.
I want to throw it quickly over to Naveen here.
Naveen, I mean, what do you think about this?
You know what I've started doing is every time someone mentions a chain, I replace it with the name of a casino in my head.
So when everyone's rooting for Solana, I'm like, oh, my God, everyone's rooting for, like, Caesars Palace.
And, you know, everyone's like pro-Caesars Palace.
And I'm so loyal to Caesars Palace.
And my entire world is Caesars Palace.
And, dude, everyone was feeding Caesars Palace when Caesars Palace was fucking $8.
And now, dude, Caesars Palace is $110, right?
And then when everyone talks about Ethereum, I'm like, okay, you know, Ethereum is like fucking Luxor.
You know, it's like, oh, dude, Luxor.
You know, like everyone's feeding Luxor.
It's slow and it's old and it's crusty.
And I just really, really kind of is like amazing, right?
Because, like, as we all know, the primary use case on all these networks is like straight up speculation.
It's like 99.999% of the utilization of these networks is like outright speculation.
And so that's just really helpful in my mind to think about it that way because it kind of makes it look, like, kind of silly.
Like, oh, my God, we have the loyalty to these casinos.
You know what I mean?
What about the culture?
Oh, yeah.
The culture of gambling, like, little old ladies sitting in front of the slot machines pushing the buttons.
No, no, no, listen, I can totally, like, discredit the stake, I'm sure, like, immediately.
So, like, with Solana, there are companies that are actually forming that are making real products.
It's like has nothing to do with gambling.
Well, hold on.
Look at, you know, go look at the on-chain activity and tell me what people are doing on Solana.
No, no, no.
You cannot just, like, look at on-chain activity and say, okay, just because some protocol dominates the chain,
this is what the chain is all about because, actually, you can then say that about all crypto.
Yes, I am saying that about all crypto.
All crypto.
Okay, fine.
But Naveen is 100% right, by the way.
And how is that interesting?
I mean, the point is we're not interested in gambling or not gambling.
We're interested in doing things that are fun.
There's no judgment in my statement, and gambling for a lot of people is fun.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
But it is gambling, and to call it anything other than gambling, I think, is dishonest.
Okay, well, okay, well, stock market is gambling, or is it investing, or whatever.
I think that there's a fine line between people flipping JPEGs and SocialFi apps and GameFi apps and all of this stuff.
I mean, some of it is investing.
There are definitely people who are investing in this space.
I'm not going to say otherwise.
People have narratives and theses.
They'll say, like, oh, I'm investing in pudgy penguins because I believe in Luka Nets.
And that is certainly a difference between investing and gambling.
And I agree with that.
But it is still speculation at its core, number one.
And number two, the majority of users on these protocols are outright gambling.
Like, that is, like, the dominant activity on these protocols is straight-up fucking gambling.
And I think it's straight-up dishonest to say otherwise.
But listen, okay, fine.
But you can actually say that any company that's starting for profit is kind of gambling.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Now you're going, like, way off the deep end.
That's just not true.
That's just not true.
Like, literally, the primary thing that everyone does on these protocols, like, buying meme coins, flipping JPEGs on platforms like Blur or Tensor, like, all of this is just, like, everyone is trying to make a bag.
That is, like, why everyone is here.
Everyone is straight-up trying to make a bag.
And all the successful products in crypto are products that facilitate people making a bag.
Okay, well, can we โ what if I say that instead of gambling, we can say asset growth and appreciation?
No, no, no.
It's gambling because it is gambling.
Like, people sitting in front of charts 24 hours a day not sleeping, not eating.
Dude, there are addicts in this industry that are no different than addicts in front of a fucking slot machine at Caesar's Palace.
And I think โ and to change the terminology is, like, minimizing, actually, a challenge in the industry that we have.
But โ okay, fine.
Okay, so let's say that gambling is definitely a thing on-chain.
Totally agree.
But is there investment โ investments in crypto?
I think there are.
I'm not โ I already stated that I agree that there are some people who are narrative-driven.
They may be narrative-driven based on the technology.
They may be narrative-driven based on the personalities.
There may be narrative-driven based on the art.
They may be narrative-driven based on provenance.
I'm not suggesting that there aren't those people.
I'm just telling you that the majority of the on-chain activity is not about that at all.
And by the way, the other thing I'll say is there are a lot of people who lie in our space who say it's about the technology or say it's about the art or say it's about the whatever.
We make jokes about it.
We say, oh my god, you know, that JPEG really didn't look very good at $12.
But at $1,200, I really love how it looks.
Like we joke about it in this industry.
So like to say otherwise I think is crazy.
Okay, but what was the point of women saying it?
Are you saying gambling is bad?
No, I'm not saying gambling is bad.
I'm not saying gambling is bad at all.
I'm simply just saying I was making a joke that if you just replace the name of a casino everyone knows, you interchange that with the name of a protocol, it just makes it funny because we all know it's true.
We all know that's what everyone's doing.
It's just a joke.
Okay.
Can I jump in here?
Of course, brother.
Always.
All right.
So I am the guy that he's talking about.
I am the one that looks for a narrative that looks for like solid fundamentals and always have been.
And I bet on horses for several years.
But Naveen is 100% fucking right, dude.
There's a reason that dog with a hat is a fucking, you know, several hundred million dollar fucking protocol.
Like there's a reason for that.
Everybody is looking to gamble.
Everybody is looking for a quick flip.
Everybody is looking for the next big thing.
Like it's a fact.
Now, will that change as the as the crypto market grows and becomes more mature and we get like a Bitcoin ETF and you have more people coming into the market?
Yeah, I would hope so.
I would hope then that, you know, over the next decade that people will be like, yeah, I want to fuck in, you know, gaming company that actually has revenue and a game and employees and they're actually building.
But in the meantime, right now, it's all fucking casino.
Like it's the other end of the spectrum.
I'm not dude that just throws money at shit.
I'm like, let it ride, baby.
Let's go.
So Solana is a better gambling engine because it doesn't take so many fees.
That's right.
And that was my whole point in previous spaces that Leap's run of like ETH versus Solana.
To me, it's like I'm a very simple person.
It's like where is it cheaper, easier and, you know, in some cases like the difference just really quick.
The difference of that is like are you betting $1 per spin on the video lottery or are you betting $10 per spin?
Like, yeah, the $1 per spin is cheaper, but that $10 per spin gives you the ability to come out like a lot more on top.
I think it's the same way like Ethereum.
I don't know that that's true.
I mean, like, dude, anyone who has bought at size, I mean, like, look at Bonk.
Bonk is now a multi-billion dollar, you know, token that rivals like tokens on fucking Ethereum.
So I don't think that's true that like you can view one as penny slots and one as the high roller table.
I think that's like also not true.
It's actually not true.
It's not true because I bought some proganas for like, you know, $80 and now they're worth $2,000.
All right, let me say this.
No, they're worth $800, so I should go check the chart.
Oh, shit, I'm wrecked.
They dipped a lot.
Now, let me say this.
What was โ okay, to me โ and Kevin said this the other day, and I think it's a pretty good line.
I think currently, with everything that exists in crypto, that meme coins and things pumping to Valhalla are probably one of the strongest onboarding tools that an ecosystem can use.
If there's money to be made somewhere, people will go.
Think about base.
What was the first big thing on base that brought people over there?
It was Bald, which had to be some insider shit, by the way.
I don't think like Coinbase themselves are the ones that fucking ran it, but like somebody who is familiar with the matter.
And then you look at โ and then obviously once people were onboarded, that allowed things like โ like Bald walked.
So like things like FriendTech and FriendPet, whatever the fuck, could run.
And I know people are not using them that much right now, but the point is they did do a lot of volume.
Whether that money gets retained, that TVL gets retained, whatever.
You look at Solana, similar thing.
Bonk brought a lot of people over from the Ethereum side and Dog Whip Hat, similar situation.
I mean you even have Sandeep from Polygon tweeting out the tickers of two of the โ did you see that tweet a couple days ago?
They're tweeting out the tickers of two of the biggest shit coins on Polygon.
Like there's no remorse.
There's no โ like they don't give a fuck.
They're like, yeah, this thing is pumping.
Come gamble on our chain because they know โ
Yes.
Yes, because Leap, that โ what everyone has realized is that this is product market fit for these protocols right now.
And that has become the dominant focus.
Like what those teams focus on, largely speaking, is ways to drive stickiness for their protocols.
Okay, what is driving stickiness today is who has built the best slot machine.
Who has built the best โ who's got the thing that's pumping the most that's going to drive like attention and activity and ultimately gambling.
Now, the one thing you said about like, oh, meme coins being a great onboarding tool, if you really think about it, that's kind of like saying, okay, well, guys, like what's the best way to get new gamblers into the MGM grand?
Okay, hold on.
All right.
That's kind of what it is.
Okay.
I feel you because it โ look, it is people just saying, you know, this slot machine is better than the next because this one is cheaper to get involved and I can make higher returns.
I totally get it.
Or whatever is easier.
It's like it's easier which one โ ever one I heard about, which one is easier for me to get involved with, which one is like โ
Sure, liquidity is a big one too, 100%.
I agree with that.
But like let's be honest.
Like saying to someone that they should buy dog with hat on Solana as an onboarding mechanism into crypto, you cannot tell me with a straight face that that's not telling people to gamble at a slot machine.
First of all, I'm not telling people to buy โ I didn't even โ I don't buy a lot of these coins.
Second of all, I'm not saying I agree with it.
I just think it's a reality.
Look at fucking Shiba.
It has 1.5 million wallets that hold it, probably more now.
How many millions of wallets hold Doge?
There is a โ you know, they look at it and the price is like 0.00 whatever, whatever, and it feels cheap compared to something like ETH, Solana, Bitcoin, whatever.
Obviously market cap is a thing, but most people don't understand that.
So yeah, I think a ton of people โ like out of those 1.5 million wallets that bought Shiba Inu and those probably tens of โ God knows how many wallets that bought Doge, how many of those people do you think actually stuck around?
Because if even 5% of those people stuck around, that is quite the onboarding moment.
That is a huge moment.
By the way, a lot of โ
Dude, my mom was talking about Shiba Inu.
Dude, that hit so many people outside of the crypto bubble.
Dude, you know what I knew the top was in for Doge and Shiba is when my dad โ this is when I was in Virginia last year or maybe almost a year and a half ago at this point.
Two years maybe.
Who knows?
Time flies.
It's when my dad, my 75, 76-year-old Syrian dad knocks on my door and he's like, your uncle is on the phone.
His son is trying to learn how to buy Shiba Inu.
Can you โ this is โ I swear.
So I get on the phone.
He's speaking Arabic with this guy and he's trying to ask me how to buy this thing and I'm begging him.
This was when โ I think this was when Doge was like 60 cents or 65 cents.
And I'm begging him, please don't do it.
Like this is not going to go any much higher than what it is now.
And of course, he bought it.
And now here's also another fair point.
For that, maybe 5% of people that stuck around, I think a much greater amount of people got burnt and never want to touch crypto again.
Like that's also a truth.
We can't โ
100%.
See, here's somebody that understands the market and the gambling side of it versus somebody that doesn't.
I was at Bahamur and this guy was there and we were partying and talking and he was like, hey man, I'm โ he's like, I'm super heavy in Doge.
And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about, Doge?
Really?
And I grabbed his phone and I sold his Doge into like Ethereum.
And Doge pulled like a fucking 15X after that.
And he texted me like after.
And he's like, yo, pulled a fucking 15X.
And I was like, yeah, you shouldn't fucking listen to random people at a bar.
That's a cool story.
By the way, there's a group in crypto that are not gamblers.
Those are the laser IMAXs in Bitcoin.
They're gambling on sponsorship deals.
I think they're gambling too.
Well, they don't gamble on chain.
That's what I mean.
They don't have any money on chain.
No, they do.
That's because they don't have any money, period.
No, they do have any money.
They just โ they never sell.
They're hudlers.
Hudlers.
Please don't infuriate the laser IMAXs.
They will come after me in hordes.
It'll be โ
Oh, what are they going to do?
Make another podcast?
It's so scary.
Dude, just remind them about the wizards and then you're safe.
The wizards will protect me.
Well, look, we'll throw it to the hands here.
We'll go to Jonah.
Jonah, I mean, what do you think about this?
I mean, Naveen and Icebag, we're 100% right.
Like, it's 100% is just not โ without a doubt.
I think a lot of people who actually want to build quote-unquote products
left in the last cycle realizing that there was nothing for them here
and were left with people who are really good at making casino games.
And I think, like, as Naveen said, I don't think that's a negative.
Like, Las Vegas is a very big business.
I mean, if you're building a decentralized Las Vegas, I mean, that's a huge market.
I'm sure there'll be some regulations and all that other shit.
We'll figure it out over the course of time.
I do think that there's real use cases, and I think they're coming.
Like, I think there's value there.
Solana's awesome, and I've always liked Solana.
Like, you know, I did not buy it at $8.
I'm not going to, like, pretend like I was.
It looked like it was going to die.
But I also said multiple times that I think that people are underscoring the value.
The only reason is because the only thing I care about in this space is gaming.
Like, quite frankly, I'm just going to tell you, if gaming didn't exist here, I would not be in crypto.
I just don't care about anything other than that.
I would just go work in Web2.
So I know a ton of gaming companies that went to Solana early on because Solana was a better alternative to Ethereum.
And quite frankly, many cases still is.
There are several Solana tokens coming out next month or next month in February that are gaming related.
So they have their own ecosystem as well that's quite interesting.
I also think there's a ton of other great L1s that, you know, are coming out that are novel and new.
And, you know, there's a saying.
It's usually not the first product that makes, you know, that's the unicorn is the second.
Because the first one gets all the fucking baggage.
It learns all the lessons.
And then the second one learns from their mistakes and then builds, like, a better solution.
So I have a lot of ETH.
I won't say how much, but I do have a lot of ETH.
And I still believe ETH is going to be a part of the cycle.
I think Solana will too.
But I also am not a maxi of anything.
I'm a fucking on-chain mercenary.
My whole mission is I don't give a fuck if it's on Amazon blockchain.
If the games are better there, then I'll be an Amazon blockchain maxi.
I could not give a shit.
So I think people should just be very open-minded this cycle.
Because all of a sudden there'll be a chain that you've never heard of that's backed by, you know, real people.
It'll get some big app to join it.
And then it'll skyrocket out of nowhere.
You'll be like, well, I listened to all the influencers on Twitter.
How come they didn't know about this?
You know, I just think that people need to be, they need to look beyond Twitter spaces.
Not that yours is bad, by the way.
I think you have a better one.
You have a better one.
You have, like, a pretty good one.
But, you know, I don't know anyone who's become very wealthy off of memeing on Twitter spaces.
Okay.
A lot of people listen to Twitter spaces for different reasons.
I'm not sitting here caking millions of dollars on spaces either.
But I do think they're, to me, it's actually my favorite form of entertainment.
Because I love crypto and I like talking about it and hearing about it.
Yeah, but just to be clear, I'm not kidding.
And I don't mean your space, because I think yours is actually quite good.
But there's a lot of spaces where it's like, what did you eat for breakfast?
And they're like, I had a donut.
And they're like, oh, did you trade that goat coin?
Yeah, so we're going to try to do better than that.
I'm actually talking to a potential guest for tonight right now, trying to get them in this space that I think would be fucking huge.
So cross your fingers, it happens.
I want to throw it quickly over to Tommy.
Tommy, good to see you as always.
I mean, what do you think about this?
We're in the hot take arena.
What are your thoughts?
What's up, guys?
Yeah, I just want to share my take on that.
So I think it's important to define the difference between speculation and gambling.
In my mind, gambling is like essentially 50-50 win-lose, you know, red or black.
You really have no information which can give you insight into what's going on.
But, you know, when I bought Dogecoin in 2014, people could say, oh, you're gambling.
But I researched Dogecoin and actually Dogecoin at the peak at that time had as much activity as Bitcoin for a short period of time.
So some people on the outside would say I was gambling.
But if you actually do your research, you would find there's a lot that goes on.
And then, of course, Dogecoin is still around today.
So I think retail traders, and this is really important to understand, too, is the different kind of โ there's like, you know, retail traders on one end and professional traders and investors on the other.
Most of the space is retail traders.
Some have more knowledge and experience in how to research, and some are reckless in how they throw money around.
And I think a lot of people follow people they trust.
Even in the VC world, it's that way, which, you know, I'm sure you're aware of that, Naveen.
A lot of investors follow other investors they trust.
So it's kind of a similar thing that's going on.
But I just want to express that, that, you know, I'm always looking for the gems myself.
And I'm leery of coins that are out, that are brand new, because there's not a lot of information to work with.
And I think that's extremely risky, but also extremely lucrative if you get it right, right?
Like if you tune in, you guys saw the Dog with Hat guy that went from like $1K to a million, right?
It's very risky.
It's very high reward.
That's not my specialty.
I like focusing and finding projects when they're early, but not that early where you really have too limited of information to make good decisions.
But I would still call it speculating.
It's just how much information are you working with.
And I just want to make one more point that this space is degenerating, which is funny to me.
I'm all about it, right?
But the products are not becoming more sophisticated.
They are becoming more and more dumbed down.
And for me, it's funny to think about what the future cycles will look like.
I think it's going to become, this is a trend, right?
Like in 2017, it was a bunch of ICOs that were serious about solving problems.
And they had their team page that were from Google and Apple and all this shit.
And then they couldn't fucking do anything, most of them.
And now it's like degenerated into meme coins.
And I'll go with the flow.
So, I mean, I talked to Crypto Wendy the other day and she made a good point that it's fun.
You know, it's becoming more fun.
And I think we got to kind of embrace that.
You know, meme coins, I don't control the flow of the river.
I just try to, I just try to catch the, you know, catch the waves and whatnot.
So, yeah, just wanted to share that.
So quickly, I do just want to ask you, when you're talking about sophistication, do you
want to give us like, what are you looking for in particular?
The biggest thing I'm looking for, and in my experience, I've learned that it's all marketing.
And I mean, this is, this is my observation of the market and my experience.
It's like, it doesn't matter and nothing matters unless if you have, if you don't, if
you have a great product without marketing, it doesn't mean anything.
If you have great marketing and a decent product, you can do well.
If you have a great product with great marketing, you do terrific.
But marketing is, is the biggest thing.
And that's what I look for.
I'm looking for projects that know that, that understand that.
And, you know, and, and, and I think a lot of this stuff can be measured and it does
take a lot of research.
You know, it does, it does take being tuned into.
It does take having a good network to, to catch those things.
Like, I think we all wish that we caught bunk, but Leach talking about how we went to, you
know, break point.
He, he saw it, he had a hint there of what's going on.
And that's the sort of stuff that you can tune into to be like, okay, they got something
going on here, you know, and you can do some research, look at the metrics, get as much
data as you can make a data driven decision.
Right.
But that's where you get into like a more advanced level.
And of course, most retail traders just throwing money left and right.
That's valid.
But you can, you can study the market and, you know, find, find an asymmetric bet.
Well, I'll say this, actually a lot of the best trades, and I'm not in some amazing trader
for the record, but a lot of the best trades are kind of staring you right in the face.
And I think a lot of times we just middle curve the fuck out of a lot of these things.
And, um, you know, like what you're saying about marketing, it could really even be, if
you zoom out a little bit, a little bit more narrative, I mean, it's the same thing with
video games.
Um, if the graphics are incredible, whatever, whatever, but the story sucks, people will game
say the game sucks.
Story is so insane thing with movies and books and all.
It doesn't matter how cool the cover of a book is.
If the story is not good, nobody's going to want to fucking read the whole thing.
And the best storytellers, maybe it's in the form of a chain or this or that, those are
the people who win.
And you would think that the best, this is where I get conflicted.
I'm interested in what you guys think.
Is it the best tech that wins or is it the best story?
Because the way it's looking right now is it kind of looks like the best story.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
Ethereum does have a really interesting story, but the tech of Solana is more accessible
and more, I mean, it facilitates how people want to act on chain currently.
So people are going there.
I want to throw it quickly over to Bord.
Tommy, appreciate the take.
Bord, what do you think?
Well, I have to say, just to switch topics a little bit, two weeks ago, I went to Charleston
and I met Beeple in person and I shook his hand.
And after seeing the art that he released tonight, I think I have an STD on my hand.
This is just, it's brutal.
This is a lot of, a lot of dicks.
Welcome to the cream team, Bord.
Dude, Bonk made the Beeple piece today.
Go pack your bags.
All I'm going to say is that I didn't get featured in this cabal shit and it all started
with the tweet I put out.
I can't do this anymore.
Dude, wait, no.
Leap, you need to zoom in.
Look at the guy holding the candles.
Don't zoom in.
If you zoom in and look at him, it's, it's you.
It's you, bro.
Is this what fine art is?
All right, Bord, what do you think about this?
But yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I definitely agree with Naveen's point about
the overall volume of crypto being gambling related.
That, that is true.
But I will say there are three areas that I think are really interesting and continue to
grow.
The first one, and this is really what got me into crypto a decade ago, was it continues
to be a really good option for cheap and fast global money transfer.
I know that there are lots of other tools to do that now compared to 10 years ago.
But nonetheless, I like how easy it is.
I don't have to futz around with, you know, like fees and basically like, you know, paperwork
and all this nonsense.
If I need to work with a developer in another country, I can send them money really fast.
And I think that that is something that people just forget.
It gets table stakes.
And we, we, we've forgotten that like how useful that actually is, especially for people
outside of developed countries to just getting yield on your liquid cash with things like
DeFi, super great.
Don't have to work with banks.
Don't have to get shitty yields compared to like what institutional players get.
So that's really good.
That's really good as well.
And then as Jonah said, gaming, I mean, being able to efficiently trade assets inside of a
game or outside of a game.
So, so yeah, lots of gambling, it's attracting lots of people and maybe some behaviors we
don't like, but I think it's important to just state there are different verticals that
are very important that crypto can enable that, you know, should continue to, to put attention
towards.
Yeah.
I mean, look, I, I, I'm not sitting here saying like the promise isn't there, you know, for
some of these use cases, but I think we've got to be really honest with ourselves and say
that over the last, you know, 15 years, those use cases have yet to pan out in any,
and any meaningful volume.
You know, like most people I know don't like sending money around without privacy because
they can use the TradFi system and then everyone doesn't know how much they're paying
everybody.
And that's the number one feedback I get from anyone who talks about using like crypto
rails, especially existing crypto rails as like any form of like money transfer system.
And frankly, that's one of the key reasons why no one uses like Ethereum really for that
or USDC for that.
Like that's not how USDC is used.
USDC today is primarily used as casino chips.
Like that's how it's used.
You know, there is some activity on Tron with USDT, but it's like de minimis compared to the
overall aggregate, you know, deck of billions of dollars of gambling volume that we have in the
industry.
It's literally like a rounding error.
And it's not really growing that fast.
You know, that's just the hard reality of the situation.
You know, so I think there's a lot of work to your point to be done in that area, because
I think there is like a lot of a lot of legitimate use cases to your point, but we're
just not focused.
Like I think one of the big problems we have is that when protocol teams see that the majority
of time what people really want to do is effectively speculate, whether it's like quote
unquote informed speculation like Tommy was talking about, or just like straight up fucking
degenerate gambling, then that's where they put their attention.
Because at the end of the day, you know, every entrepreneur, as you know, board is essentially
chasing product market fit.
And if you have product market fit in like a key area and it's like generating a lot of
volume and generating a lot of hype and generating a lot of activity, you're just going to naturally
put your attention there.
And that's really what you see.
You see that in the vast majority of products that are being shipped today in our industry
are essentially next generation speculation products.
Like that's, everyone gets excited when there's a new DEX, everyone gets excited when there's
a new airdrop, everyone gets excited when there's a new meme coin, everyone gets excited about
innovations in social fire.
Like this is where there's like peak excitement, you know, for the most part, I'm not saying it's
all of it.
I'm not speaking in absolutes.
I'm just saying the majority of the activity is really in that sort of general direction
because that's where people are quote unquote finding the most product market fit.
Now, in terms of other, you know, things like, sure, you know, if people want to use DeFi
tools to get like instant loans and that kind of stuff, you know, like, yeah, of course,
are there some people who are doing that?
Absolutely.
There are.
Is that the majority of the activity?
Absolutely not.
You know, like it's just not.
So, so yes, I, I'm not going to sit here and say that there's no other use cases.
I'm just going to say that like all those other use cases today are basically a rounding
error compared to the like speculation use case, which is what pretty much everyone is
doing.
My only counterpoint to being into that is my only counterpoint, because I largely agree
is that the internet's mostly used for porn, but poor, but internet has a pretty strong
use case.
It's like, it's just kind of what it is.
I'm not, but you're definitely right.
I mean, most of it is used for gambling.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Like, I would say like 2% of my internet usage is porn.
So why are you saying the majority?
I think that you're not what we call in the business, uh, incel, uh, my, my addressable
market is incels because they, they spend a lot and they like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jonah.
I mean, look, I'm not going to sit here and debate with you.
Like, obviously there's an enormous amount of like porn consumption that happens on earth.
Like that's true, but it's not actually true that it's the majority.
Like that's actually not true.
Uh, yeah, yeah, it's not, that's not actually true.
Like it's, it's kind of an apples and oranges compare, but yeah.
You should say Twitch.
Twitch is.
No, I know, I know you, you look, Jonah, you can give me anecdotal data all you want, but
that's not the actual like statistics.
So like what I'll say to you is I just think that, yes, you're right.
That there is a vice, a vice component to, uh, like any new tech.
I completely agree.
That's why a lot of people believe that, you know, when porn starts to adopt new tech, then
it becomes mainstream.
Like people that's that.
And there's like truth to that point.
Like there is truth to that.
Um, but what I'm saying is like, it is right now in our industry, it's like 98% gambling.
Like it's, it's literally like, that's actually the statistics, you know, like, so I just want
to, that's the difference.
Well, look, I'll say this.
I just looked it up.
I clicked a little Google search and apparently six in 12 people that use the internet spend
an average of four hours per day watching porn.
Now look, there's 12 people on stage right now and six and 12 people spend over four hours
a day watching porn.
I'm just going to say, I watched six hours of porn a day.
So I've got, I've got like three minutes.
I watched three minutes a day while I jerk off.
So you guys are.
Can we just, you know, my mom listens to these spaces.
Um, it was, where did this report come from?
Look, look, all I want to know is why we don't have a web three only fans.
Jonah, why you haven't created it?
We actually did.
It just didn't work.
It didn't work.
Like it was called like peaches or something.
Wait, why did it?
Oh, what was it called?
No, they were.
I'm pretty sure it was peaches.
Bro.
They didn't think of breakpoint leaf.
Peach.
Uh, proof of peach.
Proof of peach.
Yeah.
It's been around for a minute.
I actually remember.
Well, actually, I don't know if it didn't work.
That's, that's unfair.
Cause they may actually just be working quietly.
They're still around and they have like, yeah, they may be making money.
It's just, they're not like advertising it.
That's an unfair thing.
There's another stat I just saw from, from Grok.
I Googled it on Grok and Bing.
Um, isn't 90% of people with anime PFPs watch about eight hours of porn per day.
So I don't fucking accurate.
100%.
I don't know.
I'm not going to deny it.
It's true.
Okay.
Um, dude, they, dude, people with, I'm just not, dude, I mean, I'll, I sell some, I know
my fucking customer, dude, there are people who like have anime PFPs on YouTube and Twitch.
They watch a dude dressed as a female VTuber for hours on end.
There's a channel where they've made a, like an AI check and she just like abuses this.
It's a whole thing.
There's so much money in it though.
It's insane.
All right.
Career switch.
Here we go.
Um, look, I'll throw it over to board for it.
I mean, what do you think about this?
Yeah, I just posted the stat, um, trying to make sure that it isn't debunked, but basically
at this point, despite its start, uh, Vegas makes 75% of its money now on non gambling
activities.
Uh, for the first drinkers, that was not the case.
So, you know, um, some of it's porn and the rest of it is, uh, is non gambling.
So like crypto, uh, you know, it had its roots and speculation ended up being something
different.
Hopefully we can aspire to that.
Definitely respect.
Wait, what's the other 25% drinking and booking hotels to gamble?
Yeah, it could be that.
The other point I wanted to make though, was, um, in terms of the perception of volume being
focused on gambling, I do wonder a little bit about what is being measured, right?
Like it's really sexy to show like trading volume of NFTs and people like tracking, uh,
all those types of activities.
Um, but people aren't really tracking like money transfers between people on a day-to-day
basis.
And if they were, I wonder if it would actually seem like that is a larger activity than we
think it is, but these aren't what the tools are measuring because that's just a boring
ass story.
So I don't, I don't have stats on that.
I just, I do think there's a little bit of perception issue, which is like the gambling
narrative is just taking over in terms of all of the media and, and, and, and just
metrics that are, that are being shared publicly because that's just more interesting
for people to, to track.
Well, no, I mean, it is being measured.
I mean, you can go look on Dune and there's, um, their dashboards for sure on like USDT,
you know, transfer volume on like, you know, Tron and, and Tether puts out reports about this
stuff too.
So it is being tracked because, you know, obviously if you're Tether, you want, you don't
want everyone to think that you're just casino chips, even though that's like 99% what
it is.
Um, so, so it is being tracked and, and I think you would find that like the data show
is that it's like really, really, really small.
Um, you know, and that's just kind of the reality today.
And most of it is in like the developing world, which doesn't help in terms of the volume,
right?
Like that's just also part of the challenge.
I mean, it's incredible that it's happening.
I'm not like, again, shitting on it or anything.
I'm just saying that it's still really small.
And I think that's just like objectively true today.
And I'm not saying that's true forever.
And I'm not saying that's the only thing I'm just saying that like where we stand today,
it's like, you know, some extraordinarily high percentage, 95, 97, 98.
I don't have the exact math, but it's in that general, you know, vicinity is essentially
like various forms of speculation and gambling.
And then, you know, the rest of it is effectively a rounding error right now.
So, and obviously, yes, hopefully that evolves, hopefully board your point about, you know,
Vegas's roots being, you know, starting in gambling and then evolving and growing into
like, you know, a multitude of other things is what happens.
Like, obviously, I think we all want that to be true, but I think it's just important
to acknowledge where we currently are.
NFQ Celine Dion shows.
All right.
But what about the community and the vibes?
No, okay.
All right.
I tried.
Anyway, look.
Wait, no, hold on.
I do want to talk about this because I genuinely think community and vibes really, bro, they push
everything, bro.
If you have a banging community and you have like good group chats, all this bullshit, like
dude, I don't care what anyone says, it's cliche.
I think community and vibes is the number one fucking quote unquote utility.
You know, yeah.
Can I just add something?
Oh, YouTube definitely is.
Don't bring up group chats because the last time I started talking about group chats, I
got accused of running 12 times.
Dude, we literally hear Beeple's every day today.
Dude, I'm hurt that I wasn't fucking featured in that.
It's fine.
I'll have my day.
I will have my day.
Look, I'll throw it over to Golden.
I know you were trying to say something.
So I'll throw it over to you.
What do you think?
Yeah.
In my opinion, I totally fucking agree.
I feel like community and hype and just like the vibe there is.
It matters a shit ton.
Like, let's go, for example.
Okay, for example, let's go Arbitrum, right?
It's like TVO is crazy.
So much fucking utility.
But the community is kind of shit there.
There's not really much going on with the community.
Then we can go to somewhere else.
We can go to like fucking Metis now, for example.
I'm on Metis.
The community is fucking awesome.
But like TVO is still out.
It has like 10k active users a day.
Yeah, it's still like popping off.
And then like, same thing with meme coins, obviously.
It's just fucking like the art of like longing cults.
As long as it's like a cult, there's community.
I feel like community is pretty important.
Just if there's no hype, if there's no community, it's going to fucking die.
There's going to be like no one doing any work.
So I feel like that's just my opinion, though.
You can go to like any good utility play on fucking Ethereum that has like a shitty telegram with no one in it.
It might have the best fucking utility in the world.
We never might know what happened.
It might be like the next Pendo, whoever knows.
No community, shit's going to die.
If you have some fucking little thing that's like a fork of out on the uni swap on Cavitain,
as long as it has a community, it's going to pump.
So I feel like community, it's pretty important.
So my opinion.
The airdrop farmers, it's going to pump.
Look, you mentioned the secret code word of the space.
Arbitrum and Naveen's hands shot up faster than any Penguins ever shot up their hands.
Naveen, I don't know if you do not like Arbitrum.
What's the deal?
Do Penguins have hands?
I fucking love Arbitrum, man.
I'm like balls deep in it.
In all seriousness, look, I respect that you are balls deep into a closed source casino.
That's really great.
But anyway, the thing I was going to say is I think this is like one of those honesty moments where it's like,
OK, if we would we all be hanging around together on these like group chats if no one was making money?
And I think I think the answer is no.
No, no, no.
Hold on.
Let me finish.
Let me finish.
Like if people were not making money like on like whatever the latest, you know, coin is to drop on Arbitrum or whatever the latest like, you know, casino is to drop on Arbitrum.
Like if that didn't exist, I don't think there is a community around anything.
I'm not picking on Arbitrum specifically.
I think this is like universally true.
But the number one, I think like I operate in terms of like what is like first principles thinking.
And the first principles thinking here is like the human psychology for the space is I want to make money.
I want to make money.
Now, we are all social creatures.
We're social animals.
So, yes, obviously, I think people want to connect with each other and ideally they can connect with each other around making money.
But I don't think that people would be jumping through these fiery hoops, using clunky software, bridging from ETH to Arbitrum and doing these things if they if they didn't have a profit motive like they just would not be doing it.
And we see that we see that like, you know, why do we think all the, you know, all the volume dried up on OpenSea or a lot of the volume dried up on OpenSea when Blur came out?
Well, Blur incentivize the trading like Blur was like, yo, we're going to pay you to trade here.
And it makes sense.
Like there's I'm not knocking that at all.
And then and then a whole community sprung up of people who were like really excited about Blur.
And they have like all these people in their discord and all this shit happening because there's like a profit motive to it.
So I just want us to call out like what comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Like, yes, can the community come first in some ways and drive profit opportunities for people in the community?
Yes, I'm not saying that's not true.
But I'm saying that the primary thing that everyone wants is to make money, largely speaking.
Yeah, I totally agree.
Like the moment price goes down, even like a fucking low bill on any token.
Lots of times the community dies.
You can even like check us on this thing called like AlphaScan.
You can see how much hype a token has based on like the amount of tweets on it.
So I've done a little bit of research, right?
For example, let's take something that used to be a little bit popular.
Like we can take Ola's, we can take Mubi.
Well, when the price is going up, we had crazy fucking tweets.
And then the moment price went down like a little bit, the tweet just sort of like drying down.
Like you could see the chart even.
It's like it's a correlation, but it's like a late correlation.
It's really interesting.
So I feel like everyone just needs to make fucking money, being honest, man.
So like the moment the price goes down, no one really gets bothered anymore.
Sometimes people even start fucking like fudding the chat and shit.
So like as long as price goes up, it matters when price goes down.
Even if the project is like innovating like crazy, you're having crazy revenue, having crazy fees.
As long as price is going down, people don't give a shit.
I feel like, yeah.
Okay, so what you just said is actually like also really insightful because it's true.
We've seen many, many, many projects in our space that have shipped and shipped and shipped and shipped stuff.
And if people were not making money along the way, it died.
It just wasn't important to people because, again, when people talk about utility, the utility really is just price go up.
That's like the dominant thing people are looking for.
It's not โ I'm not โ and I'm saying dominant.
I'm not speaking in absolutes.
It's like the dominant thing.
And so I think that's just another thing to be really honest about.
Like the utility in the space is number go up.
And when number is not going up, it is really, really, really hard to retain any form of community around the thing because people are just not having fun.
Like it's fun to make money.
And it's okay for it to be fun to make money.
Like that's okay.
But if you're not making money, if you're losing money, it's painful.
And therefore, people don't really want to be a part of it anymore.
100%, man.
One last thing before I go to like Bored and Bavin.
I feel like it's kind of sad.
When crypto is like we don't even trade utility.
We don't trade good projects.
We trade fucking attention at this point.
And it's gone to the point where it's like, okay, just crazy degenerate gambling.
We're just trading attention, everyone here.
And the moment price goes down, everyone becomes fucking silent.
No one talks anymore.
And you can even see like on like CT, for example, right?
I'm not sure if you guys know this.
But when ETH pumped like fucking crazy, we had like guys like those people I haven't seen for like three months fucking come back,
both tweeting this shit to a million.
And then the price goes down again.
And then all I fucking know, I check CT.
I see tweets on my timeline from like three days ago.
No one's tweeting shit.
It's like, mm-mm.
Well, look, I think some good points in Golden.
And a lot of insight, especially, you know, you're just crushing it.
So shout out to you and Naveen.
I want to throw it quickly over to Bored.
Then we go Bavin.
Then I got a new topic, a spicy one for the Hot Take Arena.
So we'll get to that in a moment.
Bored, what's up?
Yeah, I mean, I wonder if it's less specifically about making money that makes us fun and just people wanting to win, right?
Like people play video games for fun because they want to win, even if they're not making money.
We root for sports teams because we want to win.
And making money in crypto is another format of winning.
There's a lot of people who make a serious amount of money in this world.
And they keep going because they love that feeling of winning.
This is why they gamble as well.
So like making money is a metric.
But I think it's like this deep-rooted thing that goes back to the prehistoric days of us being cavemen and like beating our chests and like killing, you know, mastodons.
Like we just need to win and we can't do that in the historic way anymore.
So crypto is yet another way that we can basically get that out of our system.
But I'm not sure the making money part is actually critical to the community because a lot of us didn't make any money for the last 12 months.
And we still, a lot of us still hung out, maybe fewer of us.
But, yeah, I mean, money is a metric.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I don't know that I agree with that.
I think that like, you know, people value their time in many different ways.
Like the reason why someone's going to stay up overnight and like look at charts is not just for the win.
I think they're doing it because, you know, there's definitely a profit motive.
I think, you know, people are very money minded in the space.
And again, it's OK.
I'm just saying like greed is absolutely a primary human motivator.
And I think, again, it's just being like honest about it is important.
I agree with you that people like to win.
I mean, there's no debate about that.
I totally do agree.
But I think that in this industry specifically, like if you took away the money, you know, and you just have like winning based on points or some kind of like, you know, trading competition kind of thing.
I mean, I've actually run this experiment, you know, like, you know, I built this like, you know, fantasy trading game where and we took away prizes.
We dropped the prize value dramatically and people stopped playing like straight up.
People just like we're like, I don't want to play even though there's points and even though I can win.
And people like want to like make money.
It's not fun to trade JPEGs if you're not like going to make money.
So I have actually some empirical evidence, you know, of like when I jack the prizes up, guess what?
Everyone comes and starts to play.
When I drop the prizes, guess what?
People don't really play as much.
Right.
So I think that's just kind of the natural state of this industry.
And I think that's just also like a part of like, you know, core human need is in this industry anyway is like it's very much driven by greed.
And that's why when you go on like CoinMarketCap, they literally have a greed index.
Like there's a greed index in the fucking corner for a reason, you know, like because everyone knows that that's like kind of what drives people in our industry.
OK, but is crypto mostly used by criminals?
What do we think?
Yep.
I mean, I look, I mean, I went to when I said I had a spicy topic for us, I was bluffing.
I was hoping I was going to figure it out in two minutes.
So I went to chat GPT and I said, look, I need some spicy crypto topics.
And this is what this is what actually gave me.
These are the worst topics ever.
The first one was centralization versus decentralization.
OK, regulation and anonymity.
Can they coexist in the crypto space?
Three, the real value of cryptocurrency.
Is it an investment asset or currency for the role of crypto and global financial inequality?
The impact of cryptocurrency.
I'm just all the basic stuff.
But the one that was interesting to me was that crypto was majorly used by by criminals.
And I think at this point that's been mostly debunked.
I mean, I personally don't believe that.
I think there's a lot of legitimate people that use crypto, but it doesn't change the fact that it does facilitate the ability for people to do things.
But at the same time, cash is probably the best currency to use for for legal activities.
I'll throw it over to Babin.
Babin, what do you think?
What's up?
What's up, dude?
It's funny.
I'm going to vacation tomorrow.
Yeah, here I am.
But the thing I wanted to respond to is kind of what Golden's saying.
One, I think it's so cool that a 14-year-old is a trader in this market that we're all competing in.
I'm 26.
It's just fucking awesome to see someone that young kind of like at this.
But I think what he said is interesting to me because I think it's two different games.
I think there's the game that Bored is talking about that people want to play.
That's fun.
And the game is the meme coins.
It's trying to establish a network effect.
And I think network effect is what comes from the price going up.
And that's the only way to get a real network effect.
I think that's what we say about community.
I think it's network effects.
You saw that with something like Pepe.
It reached a certain level of network effect.
And do I think Pepe actually is going to do anything?
But I think enough people bought at enough high of enough of a price and are willing to hold it that it has the price that it has.
Some more things about Bonk I can see happening.
With to a certain degree, Doge is like the original.
And I think it's important to see that this is not just crypto markets.
I think Tesla, really similarly, was attention-based.
Elon grabbed everyone's attention.
I'm talking about, call it 2016, 17, 18 time frame where you didn't see that many Teslas on the road.
It was really just like this car that people talked about.
He established network effect.
His stock price rose with that he made more money and turned it into a bigger company and a bigger product.
Eventually, now he's the richest man on earth.
But I think that's what we're seeing play out in the crypto game.
And I think that's just markets, man.
That's like these 14-year-olds like Golden.
What he's telling you is what happens, right?
Those are the people that are trading this.
And that's why the price is doing what it's doing.
You're not competing against anyone else.
Can I just add something to that right before we go to the fucking criminals topic?
I totally agree.
You said it's not anyone trading against anyone.
I totally disagree.
It's a fucking big-ass PVP market.
Everyone's dumping on each other.
Everyone's competing against each other.
So I kind of disagree with that.
And then moving on to the criminals thing.
What I mean to say, Golden, is you're not competing with any real institution, right?
Because any real institution that needs to invest, has to deploy a certain dollar amount,
just wouldn't even look at the markets that you are able to compete in.
So I'm saying the people that are PVPing against you are other people like you.
Like other 14-year-olds who are living, breeding this shit.
A hundred fucking percent.
It's a PVP market.
Institutions are not going to trade.
You're telling me institutions are not trading dog with hat?
They actually might be trading that.
There's enough volume.
Yeah, he might be, yeah.
Okay.
Well, look.
Actually, I remember talking to like a...
I mean, he described himself this way, so it's not me saying it.
But he's like a bootleg VC.
I guess he works with different funds and so on and so forth.
So I met him at a...
Wait, you're talking about all of Web3, bro.
All right.
I'm neither here...
That's neither here nor there.
Now, we were talking about shitcoins, and he's like,
do you think there's a way we can get funds involved in these?
I'm like, bro, these things have like a million dollars in liquidity at the max
outside of like the top 1% of them.
And, I mean, they definitely see what's going on, but it's just like not worth their time,
at least right now with some of these like micro-cap things.
There was a...
Back in 2019, FTX did have something called shit perks, which are basically just like
futures for shitcoins and that they group up a bunch of shitcoins and so on and so forth.
You can still see that a page exists if you kind of use the way back machine, but I can't
really find too much information about it besides a press release in 2019 that it existed.
So I have no idea like how successful it was or so on and so forth.
But I want to quickly throw it over to Shep.
Shep, what's up?
Yeah, I thought it was a requirement being a criminal in crypto.
I didn't know that.
So I'm pretty happy I can stop doing crimes now because that was the only reason I was
doing them is so I can hang out with y'all.
But I knew that it was serious because my Xanax dealer started accepting insults.
And I was like, okay, now we've made it.
We're in the big time.
Wow.
I don't even know how to respond to that one.
Okay.
Well, look, I want to reset the space before we continue.
So guys, welcome to space.
If you're enjoying anything about the convo, please put that pin tweet at the top, like,
comment, retweet.
I would love to see some new faces as well.
If you haven't spoken on stage, maybe this is a good first day for you to do it.
Look, we'll throw it back quickly over to Golden.
And then I actually do have a topic for us to get into.
All right.
You're a Xanax dealer acceptance.
That's a fucking top signal right there, man.
But I was going to say, crypto, yeah, it's used by criminals a decent amount because we
have shit like tornado cash out here.
It's easy to transfer money around without being intercepted.
But I feel like more people are using it than criminals.
But I feel like criminals are also made because of crypto.
I'm getting fucking drained by low Nigerian kids over there.
Like, left and right every single day that they're fucking criminals.
I'm getting drained by literally everyone.
I've been scammed.
I've been rugged.
I feel like, so crypto is making criminals.
Criminals use crypto to transfer wealth.
But at the same time, we have countries like El Salvador.
Yo, can I just say, please don't use tornado cash.
Please.
Yeah, I know, I know, yeah.
I'm scared I'm going to get, like, the FBI on me and something like that, man.
You will.
Yeah, I feel like more people use crypto than criminals use crypto.
You can go to fucking El Salvador, for example.
Left and right, your little grandma, she's using crypto.
You can go to, what's that African country again that also accepted crypto?
As it's legal tender, I forgot.
You can go there as well.
Everyone's using crypto.
I feel like as price goes up, people use crypto more as well.
So that's just my opinion.
People use crypto more than criminals use crypto.
That's what I'm saying.
Well, let me say, okay, so here, I want to, I mean, the criminal thing.
Look, I still think cash is probably the best way to commit crimes if you want to do it.
This is Can't Trace It, so on and so forth.
Obviously, crypto allows for this to, you know, more cross borders, whatever it might be.
But, yeah, I don't know.
That's a whole kind of thing that we can dive into.
I'll throw it quickly over to Bord, and then I have an NFT-related discussion.
Because we haven't really talked about NFTs that often recently, for whatever reason.
It's just all shit coins.
Bord, go ahead.
Yes, I want to illustrate how people like Elizabeth Warren show that basically, mostly criminal activity is happening in crypto.
So if you're listening or if you're on stage, if you regularly drive over the speed limit, please give me a thumbs up or a heart or a hundred just to indicate that you drive over the speed limit regularly.
How dare you?
Okay, so.
I just add fives.
Like if the speed limit is 25, it's 30.
You are all criminals.
Okay, now, now, if you use crypto, if you've used crypto in the last three months, raise your hand or give me a heart or give me a thumbs up or a hundred.
You guys are liars.
Or not listening.
But basically, most of the people in here are criminals and they use crypto.
Therefore, crypto is mostly used by criminals.
And there you have it.
Wait, you're telling me?
What's a criminal?
Right.
Well, if you've driven your vehicle over the speed limit, you're technically a criminal.
And if you use crypto, you're a criminal who uses crypto.
So I'm just trying to help you understand how statistics are made up regarding criminal activity on crypto.
I don't think you can call it like a trapping violation of crime, though.
All right.
Okay.
Does that count?
We're all criminals.
And we're guilty of buying bags that went to zero.
Now, speaking of NFTs, I want to ask this question.
Is anybody actually buying NFTs right now?
The attention, the conversation over and over, over the past however many nights has been, really just past however many weeks, has been like these coins and so on and so forth.
And a lot of conversation on the L1 assets, whether it's Solana, ETH, whatever it might be.
We talked a little bit about OPEP in the beginning of the space here.
But outside of that, and maybe Pudgy and a couple other, like the big ones that we always discuss, is anybody actually going out and finding new projects from founders that are in the cut nobody's really paying attention to?
So I actually have one leap.
I'm going to drop it on everyone.
Ghostly ghosts.
So these are the layer zero guys.
I saw it was popping off because, yes, there was a meme coin associated with it.
But in reality, I think it's probably the hottest Web3 infrastructure company and business in the space.
And what they're building is essentially a way to go cross-chain without bridging and getting hacked.
But they're doing it with NFTs now.
So they're letting you have an NFT that can live on Ethereum.
But say you had a game on Polygon, you could play as that NFT on Polygon, but not actually have to move it from Ethereum.
Wait, hold up.
Are you saying that I know a ghostly ghost is, and that came out a long time ago.
And that was kind of one of the โ if I'm remembering of the same collection, that was one of the โ
Yeah, it was Freeman.
Yeah, it was one of the first like omni-chain, multi-chain sort of things.
Are you saying that's from the official layer zero team?
I didn't realize it was that.
Oh, interesting.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that.
It was the layer zero team, but it was the first cross-chain NFT project ever.
That's the provenance of ghostly ghosts.
Right, and it's on layer zero.
Sorry, it's built on layer zero.
It is on layer zero.
That's true.
Yes, correct.
It was the first like โ I think it was like the first NFT launch that layer zero did.
Interesting.
Okay, yeah.
When you said it was official from the team, I said hold it.
Oh, correct.
Okay.
Well, look, I mean I ghostly โ there was also Tiny Dinos.
I think that โ
Yeah, it was the second.
Yep.
Tiny Dinos followed right after.
And that basically started โ
We were like the third or fourth.
Oh, really?
I didn't realize you guys were that early.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's wild.
Yeah, I remember when this whole multi-chain โ is it called multi-chain or poly-chain?
There's like a specific โ
They call it omni-chain.
Omni-chain, omni-chain, omni-chain โ this whole omni-chain thing.
I remember every project and their mother after these first couple ones were really successful
started to basically adopt this narrative as usually happens.
There's derivatives, whatever it might be.
But for the most part, it kind of fell to the side for a long time.
It wasn't really something that was super attractive.
But now with these conversations with each soul and the community is just intermingling so much,
the conversation has come up once again.
And I know Pudgy's are โ
You're welcome, Primo.
I also realized why I messed up, by the way.
I think Brian Pellegrino had a ghostly ghost, and that's when I saw it for the first time.
That's what I was thinking.
Okay.
Well, I mean, bags.
I mean, again, from a technical aspect, was it difficult to do it the way that you guys did it?
Was it โ I think the way you guys โ correct me if I'm wrong.
You minted the new collection, the other chain, or did you bridge them over?
What was the process there?
Yeah, so we were complete morons.
We were the first one to actually do like a money mint OmniChain, and we minted on seven different chains.
It took us seven months to mint out.
It was not fun.
Yeah, why did you do it that way?
Because I took over the project.
The contract was broke.
It was all fucked up.
I took over the team, the project, and I hit โ it was literally like 3 a.m.
I was drinking, and I was like, yo, who wants to fucking help me do this?
And Primo โ only Primo would do this.
He slides in my DMs at like 3 a.m., and he's like, let's do fucking OmniChain.
I'm like, all right, yeah, let's fucking do it, you know?
And we did it, and it was a seven-month mint.
It was not fun.
So it sounds like there was tons of thought put into that.
Oh, my God.
You can't even imagine.
Like, it was โ what's that?
No, no, go ahead, Bax.
Yeah, no, it was just โ there was a lot of thought put into it.
It was 3 a.m., I was shithoused, and Primo was like, yeah, let's fucking do it.
And I'm like, yeah, you know, if you're in, I'm in, let's fucking do it.
They wrote up all of our contracts, and we minted it out.
I don't know, seven months later.
It was like super easy mint.
Yeah, but I would probably never fucking go that route again.
Now, with that said, the beauty of Omni Chain is multiple things, right?
It provides downside protection, right?
Like if your fucking chain goes down, like say โ I hate to say this, but like say Phantom goes out of business, right?
And Phantom's done, all the shit's gone, right?
So you can bridge over.
The upside to it is like liquidity, right?
So say if โ I mean, everybody talked about Aptos for a while, right?
Because that was like the big one.
But there could be another chain a year from now where all the liquidity is and all the NFT trading is going on.
Like so you want to have the ability to bridge over and enjoy that liquidity.
Naveen, go ahead, brother.
Yeah, so LayerZero developed this thing called an OFT, which is essentially like their Omni Chain token standard.
So that's something that, you know, any developer can use to develop essentially an Omni Chain NFT project.
And the vision for LayerZero is essentially to abstract away like all these underlying chains, right?
So to Icebag's point, like yes, you know, the point he just made is like totally spot on.
Like it effectively can future-proof the project.
Like okay, like who knows what chain is going to have the volume?
Like which casino is going to be the best casino in the future?
Like we don't know that.
So okay, if it's an OFT, then now the community can like essentially move, you know, over like on their own effectively to like that new chain.
The other thing that it enables, which is really like a cornerstone part of the LayerZero vision, which is what makes me like really excited about LayerZero,
is the fact that you can execute like multi-chain TXs in a single TX.
So you could have a situation where you're trying to like, oh, the NFT is currently co-located on Polygon, but you want to list it on a chain.
You want to list it on a marketplace on like base.
And you can literally like do that in a, you can like move the OFT from Polygon to base and list it on that marketplace in a single transaction.
Like stuff like that where you don't even, you stop even knowing like about the underlying chains.
You just get to do the thing that you want to do.
And if like this venue is where you want it to be and this venue only operates on like chain A, you know,
but all your stuff is on chain D, you can just like do that even though it's, it's, it's, the stuff wasn't already on chain A.
So that's what makes LayerZero ultimately so special and revolutionary.
Yeah. You almost sound like, uh, maybe like a seed investor in LayerZero.
Wait, can I say something quickly?
I totally thought Ghostly Ghosts were from the official team and that's the only reason I bought them.
Do not buy them.
I'm going to sell them and buy a Can't Buy Panda right now.
Look, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say they aren't.
Yeah, you never know.
Did you guys?
Um, okay.
Well, look, I got to learn more about this Omni chain thing and really just how the tech works.
Um, like here, here's the thing.
Here's the thing, Leek.
Everybody should be building Omni chain and using the ONFT standard, no matter what fucking chain you want to drop on.
Doesn't matter.
Right.
Because here's the thing, here's the thing I learned through this process is like, I could have dropped the entire collection on Ethereum on an ONFT contract.
And they still could have had the same abilities that they have now.
Instead, I had the genius idea of minting on Optimism and Arbitrum and Phantom and BSC and on and on and on and on, which at the time in the fucking bear market of April 2021, nobody was using at all.
Um, so I had that genius idea because I'm such a fucking visionary.
Um, but you could have, I could have, I could have launched the entire thing on Ethereum and use the ONFT standard and had the same contract.
Right.
So there's, there's ways to do like, all right, I don't want to talk shit, but like what, what, what's happened with what's happened with D God's right.
With all the shit, with the fucking polygon move, the ETH move, wanting to move back to Solana, yada, yada, yada.
It could have been done in one contract.
They knew this could have been done in one contract and they could have gone wherever the fuck they wanted, wherever the liquidity was.
Right.
Because the collection is going to move.
The owners are going to move the collection to the liquidity.
Hmm.
I mean, bags are so right.
Like that's, that's, it's just true.
Like every NFT project should just be minted using the standard because then, you know, it gives your holders max flexibility.
Like that's really what it does.
It just said, it just means that like, oh, you as the holder can, you know, have the asset live wherever you want it to live.
And, and, and, and that's why that standard is starting to gain more popularity.
Right.
Um, so yeah, I, I completely agree with that.
Yeah.
But, and hang on, one of the responsibilities though, I feel like a project owner is to take care of the community and put them somewhere that's going to be successful.
And the problem with that is a lot of these founders, you know, start building on like Cardano and all of us know that's not going to be successful.
So why would you put NFTs there?
Right.
So I disagree.
I disagree.
And the fact that I think as, as my job is to build something that will bring in more holders that, that the holders enjoy being a part of, but at the same time, like it's not my job to pick their chain and where they reside or where the liquidity is.
Right.
Because what you're not understanding is like there could a year from now, there could be a new, a new L1, right.
That is literally the hub for all NFT trading.
We don't know.
Right.
And so to give them that ability in advance to be able to go there, you know, next year to me is a huge benefit.
It's not my job to say, okay, you know, we're going to have success on this chain.
Right.
Because I may be right.
I may be wrong.
But if I'm focusing on all these other things to build out a project, to be successful and, and to make something enjoyable for the holders, like the last thing I want to think about is like, did I pick the right chain or am I trapping them?
Or am I taking a fucking deal for a million dollars to go to one?
Like, to me, that makes no sense.
Hey, Smash, I have a question.
Is it only liquidity that you cared about when you did it or like, was it some also thing of, hey, if I want to use my NFTs from that live on Ethereum on a game on Solana using the ONFT standard, I can actually do that?
Does that matter to you at all?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot of different things that can, there's a lot of game theory that can come in that, you know, as well.
So, like for now, like we launched on Solana, I don't know, like in August, Solana was like 20 bucks.
It was fucking dead.
Nobody was launching any kind of fucking mints.
We minted on Solana at $20.
It was a very tough decision.
We did it.
We pulled the trigger.
It was the highest mint on Solana ever at that time still.
But, you know, the bridge to Solana is not done yet.
So it's going to be really interesting to see now when they finish the bridge, like say in, I don't know, early to late Q1, where the holders go, right?
Do they go to Solana?
Do they go back to ETH?
I don't know.
But, yeah, there's a lot of game theory.
Has price stayed, like, would the price ever get to like $2,000 on Solana and $1,000 somewhere else?
Yeah, yeah.
So there's definitely ARB opportunities, right?
So, like, when we were on, when we minted on seven different chains, like that's the reason it took seven months to mint out is because the mint was $400, right?
And we minted in USDC.
So we minted at $400, and it was like, you know, one chain was like firing off, and then it became an ARB opportunity on another chain, and then it would drop below on OpenSea or whatever.
And so it was like a, it was a shit show, right?
Like, it was a complete shit show.
But we got through it.
But, yeah, there was definitely ARB opportunities.
So what I've seen, like, between Solana now and ETH, because most of the collection has migrated to ETH, but there are ARB opportunities.
Like, Solana will drop, Solana will rip, you know, and then ETH will catch up, or Solana will catch up.
So it's not like a huge window over time, but at the same time, there are ARB opportunities.
So I want to jump in here, and I'm not even going to reset the space, but the title of the space is Hot Take Arena, meaning we need some fucking hot takes, guys.
We don't have any hot takes tonight.
I need some takes that are going to piss people off, and there's got to be some takes.
I got one.
You got one?
All right, what is it?
I didn't get a little ass space.
If you're not buying D-gays, you're not going to make it.
They're absolutely pumping right now.
What?
Um, and yeah, that's the next big thing on Solana is the D-gays project.
Let's fucking go, baby.
I don't know how to respond to that.
You wanted a hot take, and then Chef came up here with the worst take of 2024.
We haven't even hit 2024 yet, and he already has the worst take for it.
That thing was spicy.
Okay.
Um, all right.
Okay, let's try again.
Another hot take, round two.
Dude, who's got a really, really hot take?
I don't know.
This is the scariest question to answer in all of crypto.
I'm actually trying to think of something wherever you just already said.
Dude, sack up, T-Bud.
You used to give the hottest takes in all the land.
No, the hottest take right now?
I don't know any good meme coins.
I'm out of it right now.
Dude, you're going to get wrecked.
Don't even play meme.
Okay.
Um, minor hot take is Milk's new PFP is definitely going to give me nightmares tonight.
Um, I'm getting, like, super Blair Witch vibes.
I feel like you're going to, like, lure me in with, like, delicious cereal and chocolate
bars, and then I'm going to be, like, facing the corner of the room, and I can't move because
the Witch has got me.
It's freaking me out a little bit.
I don't know how to respond to that, but shout out to Milk and then shout out to that
OMB.
Um, Milk, what's, give us a hot take.
Give us something.
Um, okay, good hot take.
Well, first of all, Chef, this freaking OMB scared the hell out of me, too, dude.
Like, this is the one I minted, and I was like, that's the reason why I didn't, like, rock
her, because for the longest time, she fucking scared me.
And, um, yeah, she's definitely giving me ring vibes.
Okay, hot take.
Okay, this might be really bad, but, like, I might have to block people.
I might have to pull a morph and block people.
There's only so many freaking, like, penis photos that I can take on my timeline, and the
recent Cabal one just, like, took it over the top.
That's, dude.
Already muted him, like, two months ago.
Yes.
Shout out to Beeple, but a lot of people have Beeple muted, because he just loves to post
pictures of penises.
He's a weird fucking guy.
I, look, I, he's the knight, if you meet him in person, he's, like, the nicest guy.
I've never met him in person, but he's a weird fucking guy.
People is a hack.
People is a complete hack, if you want a hot take.
Well, okay, all right, hold on, but we need to get this.
Dude, there's been stories about how, like, Picasso, Picasso, Picasso, Picasso would draw
on a napkin, and, like, that would be how he paid for lunch or dinner.
I don't think people are taking Beeple napkin photos for lunch or dinner.
All right, hold on.
Bro, that's the perfect name for a knockoff Picasso.
Wait, hold on.
Or Picasso, Picasso.
Picasso.
Picasso's genius.
I just invented a meme where it's Elon Musk plus a dildo plus whatever the current Twitter
coin is.
Call me an artist, please.
I'm Beeple.
All right, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Beeple, like a modern-day Shakespeare.
He's told this shit something called Meta-Covid, and no one knows who that person is.
All right, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Beeple is a modern-day Shakespeare, Leonardo DiCaprio, Leonardo Da Vinci, Leonardo Donatello,
and all the other Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
I just don't know.
I think Meta-Covid's like a known person.
He's like a YouTube video with his face in it, and him, like, talking in it.
Yeah.
It's too lazy to look it up.
Yeah, Leap, you're wrong.
You're wrong.
About, okay, about what?
What am I wrong about?
Melk has a good point, and I agree with Melk, but for different reasons, I don't, I really,
really don't appreciate the unrealistic size of his paintings.
It's just ridiculous.
Like, do you know how hard it is to be a male with super average to below average paint
and tell you and look at those pictures night after night?
It is hard on one's emotions.
I mean, you don't have to look at it night after night, by the way.
I have a hot take, but you have to have a trigger warning for ZK Sync first.
All right.
Hold on.
All right.
Okay, this is good.
I asked for hot takes, not...
I'm going to get some hot takes out as well.
Whatever the hell is going on here.
Yeah, no, Beeple does love penises.
Big fan.
He's a big fan of them.
I actually posted a video, I mean, in his art, of course.
I posted a video, what was it, a couple days ago, where I ate a bull penis for Twitter
likes.
I don't know if you guys saw that one.
Had a taste.
Oh, it was, dude.
I thought I cracked my tooth on it.
Like, I grilled it way too long on the skewer.
And you can see in the video, you couldn't even chew it.
Did you grill your own penis?
All right.
Okay.
Look, we got to just move.
Like, I ordered it.
It was on the menu.
And you know what's funny, Jonah?
Hantau DM'd me instantly.
And he's like, I know what place you're at.
I love that.
I'm not going to say the name.
I'll say the name of the place.
It was like a, like tea kebab or something like that.
Um, he literally knew the place.
Just off a screenshot of the, I posted just a picture of the menu where it said bull penis.
He knew exactly where it was.
Look, we've got to throw it in the hands.
I asked for hot takes.
We have a bunch of hands here.
Trevor, what's up?
I mean, what's the hot take?
Like, I mean, I know this is like probably not something that you can discuss, but you
know, we could discuss Leap's Ornals project being a rug or a grift or whatever.
Um, but no, Leap, I came to celebrate, dude.
You got 50K followers today, man.
Like, congrats.
Like, I can't imagine where you're going to be a year from now.
Wanted to thank you for all the good work you're doing in the space.
I mean, kind of when Ornals took off and like, I just started going around the different
Twitter spaces, like coming to your space was one of the most welcoming, uh, places
that I joined and it really helped me like, uh, just get better at the medium and like
learn from you and meet a lot of really cool people.
So we want to congratulate you and thank you on, uh, on, you know, uh, allowing me to
be a part of it with you this year.
Hot take.
Leap and Zink, Leap and, uh, and not Threat Guy are nice, cool people.
Good hot take.
No, we're the worst.
We're the worst.
Um, Trevor, actually, and a shout out to you too.
I remember when you first came up on stage and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy whose
username is two letters?
I didn't even know that was possible.
That was like the first thing I found out about you.
I'm like, his username is literally two letters.
And, um, I mean, you, ZK and all the other Ornals guys, I was telling, I don't know if
you were in, I think you heard me say this last night too.
Um, I mean, just that move that a lot of y'all made to double, triple, quadruple down
on Ornals, like sub 10 K inscriptions at the beginning of this year is still one of the most
insane things I've ever seen.
Like you guys skyrocketed and following and influence and just obviously a lot of people
there made a killing as well.
But the Ornals thing is, it just blows my mind, man.
It's, it's really crazy.
Um, but speaking of Ornals, ZK, I don't know if you, uh, do you see those new OMB on stage?
By the way, I did not know this OMB existed until I saw Melk's.
It has to be one of the sickest OMBs in the collection.
Yeah, it's not, I don't know if I saw it this morning.
Uh, it's awesome.
I love, it's, it's just a cool feeling seeing, uh, you know, someone wearing, you know, someone
wearing your project to kind of make it into their identity.
Uh, so it's awesome to see that.
But yeah, I think, uh, there's tons of OMBs.
I mean, sometimes I'll forget about ones I've seen for like months and then see it again
for the first time.
But, um, yeah, it was, is the hot take have to be related to CryptoLeap or no?
Dude, let it fly, whatever it is.
Uh, just come back to me in like two minutes.
I think you, I think he was going to, I think he was going to say, uh, Ethereum becomes
a Bitcoin L2.
I want to think it carefully over before I say it.
All right.
All right.
That's fair.
That's fair.
Ethereum is a Bitcoin L2.
What's his trick?
All right.
Hold on.
Okay.
Look, what do you guys know about the ETH?
No, it wasn't crypto related.
That's why I asked.
Wait.
Okay.
No, make him say it, Lee.
Make him say it now.
I just said it.
Okay.
Hold on.
All right.
Before we start talking about the ETH.
The one is hoping at all.
Okay.
Hold up.
People are building SVM on ETH now.
They're literally just taking your virtual machine and they're putting it on ETH.
I don't know if you guys are doing the same thing.
They're taking the EVM and building it on Sol, too.
I don't believe that's real.
Um, look, we need, I need some absolute hot takes.
I need a take that's so hot it's going to get me canceled.
Does anybody have something that, Jesse, I feel like.
Dude, okay.
Do we want to talk about the Utes points and how I got cucked for a year and a half?
Like, Frank's my boy, but I got absolutely slapped in the face with the points parlor.
Being a Ute was like being in second.
Like, dude, I was rushing for a fraternity for 12 years.
Dude, you believe in a guy whose name was Frank, whose name wasn't related to Frank.
So, how could you get rugged on that?
All right.
He was a guy that was named Frank that was an Indian guy that was pretending to be a white, douchey, white guy, bro.
Like, how could you get rugged?
Oh, okay.
All right.
You wanted hot takes.
You wanted hot takes.
Don't get mad at me, Lee.
No, I'm more mad at myself.
Um, look.
Look, I think people can choose whatever username they want to choose.
Um, whatever it might be.
Um, do we, do we, you scared ZK away.
I didn't even get to hear his hot take.
This is ridiculous.
Um, okay, Jesse.
I have such a hot take.
Like, oh God, who, international DJs should not be let on stage.
Blau, uh, what's the, uh, what's the hot take?
Well, first of all, turns out I only had 0.3 Solana in that wallet.
I thought it was more like 30.
So, uh, you all got it wrong from last night.
Um, I guess 97.
Shit.
It was 0.3.
I thought it was, I thought there was more in there, but there, there, there wasn't.
So, I probably, you know, he sends me a, I'm not even going to say what it is, Blau.
He sent me a screenshot with this craziness in the background.
Oh, well, yeah.
My, one of my Bitcoin wallets was behind it and I didn't know and Leap saw it.
It was like casually sending this.
And I was like, no, you're not getting the Bitcoin wallet.
But anyway, what was the deal?
Um, okay.
We need to, Blau, you want my hot take?
You want my really hot take?
Yeah, talk to the stage with your CryptoPunk PSP.
No, no, no, this is, this is my very unpopular opinion.
Um, and I, and I, I'm like 60, I'm like 65% confident in this potential future reality.
But I will say that I, I don't like talking about prices or markets in general, because I
tend to believe that nobody has any fucking clue what's going to happen in the future.
I do, however, think one thing in my very brief years in, in this world of crypto, um, my
hypothesis is that everything that's happening in this current rally is basically priced into
two events, an ETF event and a halvening event.
And I would, I would go so far to say that other cryptocurrencies and blockchains are sort
of correlated with Bitcoin in this regard, because the, the specific thing that's sort
of priced in is if Bitcoin gets approved when other crypto basket ETFs approved.
Right.
And so everything's sort of rallying around combo halvening ETF.
My opinion is that we may see a slight bump in ETF, um, assuming ETF happens, we may see
a slight bump, but it will probably sort of trade sideways until halvening.
But my unpopular opinion is after halvening shit's going to just get wrecked.
Um, that's my unpopular 65% opinion.
I think that the market's recovered way too quickly.
People hadn't really seen enough pain for long enough.
And I think that generally, um, you know, small cap growth stocks are going to get hit
again.
And crypto has always been correlated to those.
So, um, I hate to rain on the parade, but again, my hot take is 65% confident.
So I could be wrong, but I was, how long, how long would have been long enough?
Yeah.
I was sobbing in the shower while eating cheesecake.
You're saying I didn't suffer enough, dude.
That was, that was the worst two years of my life.
I just played Call of Duty during the barrel.
We haven't felt pain since 2008 motherfuckers.
I actually kind of agree with, I actually agree with Bob's take here.
And it's not just because he's an international DJ.
I actually think that if you really think about it, I mean, crypto has been kind of up only
what for eight months now, like, yes, it was very low, but it's been going straight.
Like it's been going straight up.
And I do think the ETF is probably priced in.
I think over time it's on boards, you know, billions of dollars of liquidity, whatever it
is, but let's not pretend that the ETF, everybody knows it's coming.
This isn't some secret news.
It's a buy the rumor, sell the, buy the rumor, sell the news is a very popular set.
Yeah.
And there, and there ain't a fucking rumor.
And I think that that's, that's the thesis I have is like, I think everything's sort of
rallying around this like weird hope.
And, but here's the flip side of it.
I think on the flip side, I still believe longterm, like over the next five years,
I think it's just going to be amazing.
I just don't know if this is the year.
And then the other, like, so 65% confident that post happening or post ETF, we see like
some pretty, some pretty crushing stuff, but here's the flip side of it.
The flip side of it is I think during the next four years, during the next presidency, whoever
the fuck wins, um, we will probably see clear regulation around crypto.
And I think as that regulatory clarity comes in, the market will move very nicely and stably
up, um, for a long time.
So that's my other, like, that's my positive look.
My short-term take though, is like, I ain't fucking doing shit, but yeah, that's my, that's
my hot take.
Okay.
Can I go?
Go ahead, guys.
All right.
So I'm going to completely fucking disagree with, uh, the DJ guy completely.
So here's my thing.
Remember, I'm only 65% confident.
Remember.
Yeah.
No, no, that's right.
So that's 35%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I got, I got a pretty good, you know, chance that you're wrong here.
ETF will be a major fucking player.
It is not a sell the news fucking event.
It is a game changing event for the industry in general.
Why?
What is the reason?
Because most people will say more liquidity, but that's not a good reason.
Yeah.
I can explain why it's not a good reason, but.
Yeah.
So I'm going to say it's this, it's, it's literally just the ease of buying it.
Right.
Because it's, it's not, um, great, great, great scale.
Like you can already, you can, you can buy BRR.
You can buy tons of ways to get exposure to Bitcoin right now.
But anybody with a brain does not want to buy fucking grayscale.
You're getting eaten away with fees.
It's like buying a fucking leveraged ETF.
Right.
You can, you can buy and sell options and futures with BRR, which is that, which is that, um,
I don't know who, I don't, I don't know how BRR works, but it is not hard to get exposure
to Bitcoin with a brokerage account today.
All right.
But, but how many people use options?
Well, sure.
Not men, but, but, but, but, come on, dude, dude, I've, I've had a fucking E-Trade account
for like 20 years and I've never, I haven't even set up an options account.
It's like, it's like a fucking 15 step deal to get an options account with E-Trade.
You know what I mean?
It's not an easy thing.
Agreed or no?
No, no, no.
Yeah.
Uh, it's not, options aren't easy, but the, the point that I'm making is for instant, the
whole argument around ETFs is that institutional liquidity is going to fucking, to me, to me,
it's not, exposure, even like fucking sailor.
And I remember when I actually talked to sailor before they made their big fucking move.
Cause mutual friends, long story.
But like, if you want exposure, it's not, and you're an institution, it's not difficult
to do that today.
It was five years ago.
Um, but it's not today.
So there's this sort of like, does it make retail me, does it make it easier on retail?
Sure.
Um, but my, my, my general belief is that again, 65% confident post ETF shit.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
It sounds like an intelligent measured conversation leap.
That's not what I came here for personally.
No, I'm going to drop a hot take after this.
All right.
Well, okay.
Look, these takes better be so hard.
Let me, let me rebut and then I'll, and then I'll drop a hot take.
All right.
So, so here's the thing is when people actually have the ability to buy and you have all these
guys shilling the new fucking shiny token and they're getting a commission on it, then
it brings new people in.
That's what I'm saying.
Right.
So then new people are now buying just because all these guys are now pushing.
I'm just telling you this.
When, when the BT, when the BTC ETF gets approved, you'll see the biggest marketing push from
BlackRock, from all these other guys, they'll be fucking marketing the shit out of it because
they're going to get a percentage of every time somebody turns over.
Right.
So that's why I think new liquidity comes into the market.
Now I'll jump into my hot take.
My hot take is soul will surpass ETH, maybe not in market cap, but there will be an NFT project,
whatever it may be, whether it's pandas, whether it's a mad lads, whether it's sensorian.
At some point in the next, in 2024, a soul NFT will pass and be number one on the leaderboard
in total dollar value.
I will take the other side of that bet.
Who is that?
By definition, that makes the hot take.
I will put 10 grand on the other side of that bet.
Does it have to be a collection like that?
Cause there's certain projects, um, that, that only have like maybe a hundred in the
collection.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's gotta be, it's gotta be, it's gotta be market.
It means total market cap.
Yeah.
Okay.
Total market cap.
I think that's fair.
Um, it's just hard for me to see a world in which, by the way, I think mad lads could
go, please.
I hold mad lads.
So this is bias and please like do your own research or whatever the fuck.
But I think mad lads could do like 30, 40 K USD.
I'm not sure what it will be in soul.
So this is my, my, my hot take is that the thank you X art floor and I have two thank
you X pieces.
Um, my, my hot take is the thank you X art for surpasses Picasso by 20, 2050.
Yeah.
I actually don't doubt it.
All right.
I'll take 10 grand on that as well.
Look.
Okay.
All right.
Wait, can we document this?
We'll circle back.
I may be alive and may, I may not.
Okay.
Hold on.
There's still crypto, like people shit on ETH and all the projects.
They're still crypto punks.
They're still autoglyphs.
They're still fidanzas.
There's a lot of crypto punks for $1 million within the next 10 days.
I'm talking about PFPs.
Crypto is a PFP.
Or look at squiggles.
Squiggles.
But Autoglyphs is not.
Hang on.
Wow.
We're doing this 10,000 other side bet.
I want to ingrain this into cement that you just said crypto punks to a million dollar floor
price.
I want the other side for $10,000 in cement.
No, no, but over a long time frame.
They almost were.
Over a long time frame.
They almost were last cycle.
Over a long time frame.
Dude, they hit like 350K floor.
Yeah.
Crypto punks, I think that, dude, it's not crazy.
Here's the thing, though.
The dollar keeps losing value.
So when we say, like this one, when people say, oh, like Bitcoin could be 10, 20 million
dollars, I believe it because I believe that 10 to 20 million dollars will not be worth
what they're worth.
We knew you were smart.
We always, that's why we're all here.
Because we knew you were smart.
I'm just LARPing.
Naveen's had his hand up for a long time.
All right, Naveen.
The hottest take has got to be the surface of the sun.
What do you think?
So two things.
One, I want to just kindly disagree with our mutual international DJ and entrepreneur friend.
I think something that is-
65% confidence, remember.
No, I hear you, brother, but I think there's something that we're not considering, which
is the likelihood of rate cuts next year.
I think that turbocharges all markets, you know, and I think some of that is priced in,
but I don't think it's all priced in.
I think, you know, there's like a pretty strong likelihood of meaningful rate cuts next year.
And I think that ends up being like, creates a, generally speaking, more risk on environment
for people because cost of capital decreases tremendously.
So I think that's just like a factor in all of this.
I agree with you that, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the ETFs,
like how much money actually flows into them.
That's like a big question.
And when I spoke with my buddy who runs Bitwise, you know, he was like, you know, he was obviously
giving like a conservative answer, you know, in terms of like his projections.
But I think there is a possibility that there is meaningful inflows.
And then I think, just think like, you know, next year will be like, generally speaking,
more like risk on, you know, opportunity for folks.
And I think that's just generally good for the crypto markets.
So I agree with you completely on the rate cut, general risk on trade thing.
I guess I'm talking specifically about the ETF of moment of the event and the, and the
happening moment of the event, as opposed to like what happens in Q4 of next year when rate
cuts are sort of really like, when that slope changes and the risk on trade starts happening
it like in a bigger way, I guess I was more talking about like more of the buy the rumor
sell the, sell the news situation around those two events versus the general risk on environment
that I completely agree with you on.
Yeah.
Because that anybody that uses the term risk on is a Charlton, because you could just use
the word risky, which is a real word.
Okay.
Anyway.
Um, so, uh, so yeah, I mean, look, you know, you and I could certainly like debate timing.
Um, and that's, you know, like what, how you see the world playing out and have some degree
of confidence in is obviously entirely possible.
I just think that people, um, generally want it to be a risk on environment because, you know,
people like not having to be stressed, um, and people like gambling and like playing the
game, whether it's the stock market or crypto.
And if they, if they get even a whiff, like from the fed that, you know, they're projecting
rate cuts, I think that's like enough almost like the, the rates themselves don't even
have to be, that's why the market's rallying right now.
Cause it's already, I got it.
I got it.
And I, and I think that, and I think, I think that honestly continues.
Like, I think that continues, um, you know, in a meaningful way.
And then in terms of my like hot take, um, it's definitely a hot take.
Um, I actually think this is a winner take all game.
I don't, I don't, I think that, you know, I'm not saying chains die, but I think, um,
all chains except one chain ultimately fade into irrelevance.
What that chain is, is, is obviously TBD.
Um, I don't know that the chain, and this is like the second part of the hot take.
I don't know that the chain that ends up being the winner, um, is live yet today.
I don't know.
I think that's true.
Also, there are lots of languages.
English happens to be the language of business.
There's only one piece.
There's only one TCP IP.
That's true.
There, there's no, I see this.
So you're basically, Naveen, what you're saying is that sure, like no chain can really
go to virtually, like literally zero.
I mean, again, even ETC, uh, Ethereum classic has 400 million.
Yeah, what the fuck is up with ETC?
Seriously.
Like, why do people even touch that shit?
I don't understand.
Are you kidding me?
That's the true Ethereum and all of you guys LARPing on Ethereum 2.5.
Why the fuck is proof of work Ethereum only $60 and ETC?
How is it possible that the market cap of ETC is, is greater than the market cap of proof
of work Ethereum?
That, to me, makes no sense.
Just to outline the three types of Ethereum that you can currently interact with right now,
um, there's Ethereum classic, which is the original Ethereum for the real OGs.
I was not there at that time, but, uh, it's not, it's not necessarily factually correct,
but keep going.
Okay.
Anyway, wait, how is it not, it's the first Ethereum, what the heck?
Dude, you can't say anyway and then go back.
They're all, it's just, you keep going, keep going.
Okay.
It was technically the first Ethereum.
Secondly, um, there's Ethereum proof of work, which is the Ethereum that we had before
the merge.
And actually there are still people building NFT projects on there.
There are still NFT marketplaces that are, that are actually pretty new that operate
there and do volume.
And there are communities.
Um, I think it's a community from China, the, the Beatles.
What's the price of proof of work ETH?
Cause then I want to go sell that shit.
How much is proof of work ETH?
I think it's, um, I don't remember.
I don't know what the price is.
I'll have, I'll actually can look it up.
Is it like above a hundred dollars or something?
It's $4 plus $4.
It's $4.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it went up 23% today.
That's crazy that it, that is crazy.
That's up 22% today.
Um, and then the third category of Ethereum or third type is Ethereum we have now, which
is proof of stake, which is I guess Ethereum three.
Um, but yeah, it's crazy that people still, I mean, there are literally NFT communities
on proof of work right now.
They're active.
But that proof of work, I actually know the founders all, all they did is just, they forked
the, the Ethereum and they didn't do the proof of stake thing.
And, and it's literally just a copy of a copy and it's not, I wouldn't say like it, it looks
like Ethereum, but it's not really Ethereum.
Okay.
Um, now also that actually, I didn't know that.
I thought it was the, what do you say?
They just forked the original.
Yeah.
Literally.
Like there's like three guys.
Like I met them in Palo Alto.
Like we talked about it.
They, they, they took the state of the chain.
They had all of their friends turn on their computers and called it, uh, Ethereum proof
of work.
And that's, that's, that was that.
This is not the, not the original proof of work Ethereum.
Like you can't act, you're saying you can't access that anymore.
No, you, I mean, you can't access the gold.
So, so it's, it's, it's really not about technology.
It's about the groups that run like the foundations that run the chains.
Anybody can fork Ethereum right now, whether it's proof of work or proof of stake and call
it whatever Ethereum one, two, three ABC, it's not going to make it the same thing.
And what those Chinese guys did or agents exactly that they just basically said that,
okay, we're going to keep the proof of work functionality on.
We're not going to do the switch to POS.
Here's a copy.
If you're a minor and you have a lot of video cards, continue to mine.
Interesting.
I did not know that.
Okay.
That's cool to know.
Um, cause that's why it's so low in valuation.
I mean, like if you look at the fully deluded market cap, it's about 400 million.
I mean, it's not like nothing, but it's really not nothing interesting.
It's wild that it's still even in that much.
Now we got a comment in the, uh, in the comment section by, by C ghost and, uh, C ghost
had three hot takes.
I'll say the first one here is Jonah blocked me because he couldn't outwit me.
Who?
This is a real comment.
It's a Jonah.
Jonah blocked me because he couldn't outwit me.
This is from, uh, this is from C ghost.
Um, I don't know who that is.
I say that's highly unlikely that Jonah could not with him.
Um, I mean, ghost, if you want to come up on stage and, and I mean like, sure.
I mean, I forgot.
If you did debate me, I already forgot about you.
And after you debate me again, I'll forget about you tomorrow.
You are the worst.
You are the worst.
Um, all right.
We'll see goes.
If you want to come up on stage and debate Jonah about whatever, um, I'm more than happy
to host.
Look, look, look, while we're waiting for that leap, I'm so sorry.
But like, I saw, you have to see it too.
Look at the jumbotron.
Somebody photoshopped your face in the middle of the dude in the people image, bro.
So like, yeah, I'm sorry for your loss.
Yeah, we're not.
Why would you pin that up?
Why would you?
Why would you draw?
I mean, it's so ridiculous.
It's a little bit funny.
It's so good.
It's so good.
People are crazy.
They just take my PFP.
They took a real picture of my face.
They found a good picture of you.
They found a good picture.
Oh, that's so fucked.
Bro, it's actually fucking jokes.
Not only did they just take my face, they cropped it and turned it into a PNG.
Um, okay, look.
I have a hot take.
All right, Jonah, what's a hot take?
I think most of this shit has no value.
And if Twitter dies next year, which is also a strong possibility, most of the shit's
going to zero and you'll never hear about it again.
Okay, so the first part of that take is pretty basic.
I agree with you.
But the second take is really interesting.
Or the second part.
That's such a great question.
If Twitter or X died tomorrow, how many of these projects would flounder?
Now, I do think that I truly believe that a lot of them could just move to Discord, Telegram,
so on and so forth.
But you lose a lot of the reach, obviously.
You lose a ton of the reach.
We could always go back to threads.
I mean, that's what Kevin Rose is doing.
He said, fuck it.
Fuck this Twitter shit.
Everyone's being mean to me.
I'm going over to threads.
He, um, he's getting good engagement over there, too, so.
What a champ.
Yeah, we would just, it would just migrate to another social media.
Like, it, it happened with, like, uh, you know, like, everybody was on Clubhouse at one
point, and then Twitter came out with Spaces, and everybody moved over to Twitter, and so
I think it would just move to a different platform, whatever that platform might be.
There's no chance that X will die.
There's, like, simply no, no chance in him.
I think there's, I don't want it to die.
Trust me, it's not good for my business.
But I think saying that there's no chance is, is being, like, unrealistic about the
reality that Elon is definitely not making money, and he's losing a lot of money on
this, and how long does he want to lose money for?
Who knows?
Not going to die, because if it goes that path, Facebook will buy it.
No, they probably won't be allowed to.
The government will probably block them from that.
No, they won't, they won't do it.
They'll be very happy to.
If you say so, Twitter's fine.
I know those people, it's going to be either Google or Facebook, and if it happens to be
the case where Elon is, like, out, they'll definitely, they're definitely buying it.
All right, here's a hot take.
Kevin Rose launches a new NFT project in 24, and he actually works on it.
He actually works on it, and it becomes successful.
That's a very hot take.
Yeah, dude, we need to cool you down.
Hold on.
All right, I don't want to get canceled by the whole Moonbird community.
What, the three people who are there?
Okay, there are more that, dude, that's just two people.
No, you're right.
Six, my bad.
They're four.
Wait, hold on.
All right, let's talk about Moonbirds for a second.
Look, I like, okay, first of all, can we at least agree that the art is pretty good?
Can I get thumbs up, thumbs down?
What do we think?
Yeah, the art looks fine.
I mean, it's a pixelated bird.
A lot of people can make that.
Okay.
All right, well.
No, it's transcended more than that.
You get that.
Continue.
Oh, it's not.
It's a symbol now.
It's not good art.
Why do people always say it's good art?
Pixelated art is not good art.
It's lazy art.
It's old school art because it's easy.
Come on, man.
Okay, just to say this as well, like this narrative that pixelated is old school.
We only think it's old school, but actually pixelated in the old, like, CRT TVs and stuff,
the edges would be rounded.
And it was, so it's a-
You watched that one YouTube video, didn't you?
I did.
Yeah, I did.
I fucking know which video that is.
I watched it, too, Joan.
I watched it, too.
I watched it, too.
Okay, look.
No, you didn't.
We'll say this.
I didn't watch it.
I didn't watch it.
I just wanted to fit in.
Okay, fun.
You're saying that all pixel art-
That was actually funny.
It's lazy art.
You're saying it's lazy art.
You're saying it's not good.
So is what you're saying, CryptoPunks are not good art?
Oh, I couldn't be- I couldn't be more clear on the fact that CryptoPunks is not good art.
Base, take, agreed 100%.
Only 3D art is good art, right?
It's prominent art.
Oops, have you seen these?
You guys are sounding like Burden right now.
Yeah, this industry is totally about the art.
Where is Burden?
Is Burden- Is he even alive?
Yeah, I was actually talking to him in DMs yesterday.
He was in the spaces last night, wasn't he?
I think he's going through college to get a real job.
No, his dropshipping course with Luca is going fucking-
Okay.
Listen, listen, no, listen.
Wait, I have a hot take.
If Luca dropped a dropshipping course, I would buy it right now just because he's-
Dude, he's fucking killing it.
Like, he's like the only person right now that has the fucking ability and audacity to actually
release a course because he- he fucking broke out of this whole thing.
Dude, and if you got-
What are you talking about, dude?
Oh, that guy's a fucking clown.
All right, hold on.
All right, okay.
I said hot takes.
We're not going to-
Dude, you're right.
Everyone knows that.
Dude, these are the hottest-
Lee, this is what you asked for, Tom.
Wait, we're C-Ghosts because apparently-
Guys, you gotta-
If you buy my course and you'll learn how to promote on the X algorithm, don't-
Don't fucking like or respond to anyone in the mentions or you're going to get down-
Fuck that guy.
Fucking ridiculous.
Okay.
Um, this is getting out of hand.
Uh, okay, look-
What is he going to do?
Fucking write a course about me?
Ooh.
Yo, I have a-
I have a hot take.
Who's going to write-
Okay, we're just going to move on.
This is crazy.
We gotta move on here.
This is-
I'm already hated by half of Twitter at this point because I'm a fucking-
Dude, just pass it to Trevor.
Uh, yeah, Trevor.
Yo, my-
My hot take is that ETH is going to gain the most in value this year.
And I came up with that hot take because I just tried to think of, like, the last thing
that anyone would possibly say tonight.
That's because ETH is last-
No, it's-
There's four days left in the fucking year.
No shit.
ETH is going to perform the best for the rest of the year.
I gotta-
I gotta hot take that, Trevor.
No, I meant-
I meant-
I meant 2024.
You know, ETH will be the best-performing asset in 2024 is the last thing I can expect
anyone to say up here tonight.
Cardano will be the best-performing asset in 2024.
All right, hold on.
Hold on.
Chef said he had a hot take.
Chef.
Now you're just lying.
Yeah, I think Trevor will hate me for this one, though.
I think that in the long, long run, Bitcoin's going to end up just being, like, a novelty,
and it's going to get phased out by newer blockchains.
Bro, there's going to be, like, 10 podcasts tomorrow talking about what you just said.
Bro, at least 11.
There's only one thing that can save Ethereum, and that is developing their own layer, too.
What?
Okay, here's a hot take that somebody totally DMed me.
Bitcoin is overrated.
Trevor, I mean, what do you think?
That sounds retarded.
That's kind of what I said.
It's overrated?
I mean, by who?
So the entire industry is overrated, then, since it's all built on top of Bitcoin.
By someone who didn't buy it.
Jesse's like, oh, finally, we get the point.
Jesse's like, oh, finally, you woke up.
Wait, hold up.
Here's another hot take that someone DMed me.
They said ordinal theories is not real.
Well, technically, it's copied and pasted into the sat.
Well, technically, nothing in this space is real.
I mean, money is not real.
And the dude on the plane wasn't real either.
Wait, Icebags.
You've been a longtime critiquer of ordinals.
I mean, what do you think about them?
Yeah.
I think it's a huge fucking grift.
Now, look, I don't mind, like, inscribing stuff on Bitcoin because Bitcoin is the fucking king.
And for everybody that says, like, oh, Bitcoin's going to fade away and it's going to get overpassed, it's not going to fucking happen.
Like, we're all here, luckily, because of Bitcoin, right?
Like, we are here because of Bitcoin.
It is the king.
Now, the problem is, is, like, when something is the king and you have grifters going from, like, chain to chain to chain, and now they got Bitcoin, they got something to grift on, like, they're going to grift on.
Now, Trevor's going to get mad at me, but, like, the infrastructure's not there.
They can't fucking number their shit properly.
There's a lot of issues that go along with that.
And then the worst grift of all is the rare sats.
Like, get the fuck out of here.
Nothing's rare.
Like, it's been traded around for fucking...
Yeah.
Icepacks, icepacks.
What about the pizza sats?
Hold on.
Let them cook.
This is a good take.
Yeah.
I mean, go ahead.
Somebody fuck me up.
Go ahead.
No, bro.
I actually just keep going.
I like what you're saying.
Dude, it sounds like a personal opinion, and it's okay.
You can have it, but it is a personal opinion.
Of course it's a fucking personal opinion.
Of course it is.
It's my opinion.
The market disagrees with it.
I mean, like, it's cool, you know, but it's like, okay, I have opinions, too.
I'm not always right.
Somebody's mad.
Yeah, yeah.
Isn't that the definition of an opinion?
It's definitely my personal opinion, and look, my opinion's not always right.
I fucking, I miss plays, I hit plays, whatever.
But, like, rare sats is the dumbest shit I've ever heard of.
It's the biggest fucking grift on the planet right now in crypto.
All right.
Why, though?
Why?
You need to explain yourself.
Why you think so?
Yeah, you hit a button.
All right.
So, yeah.
In crypto, I save.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, and if it's in crypto, it's like the planet at this point.
So, I mean, rare sats is so fucking stupid because nobody gives a shit.
Like, these sats have been traded around all over the fucking planet.
So, for you to say, like, oh, this is the pizza sat, and this is the fucking, you know, this guy on this sat.
It's fucking retarded.
Sorry, you just said this personal take, and now you're saying it's everybody, nobody gives a shit.
It's like, you know, make up your mind.
I mean, do you think that if you got, like, a hot take.
I mean, I don't give a shit.
I kind of agree with the guy.
I really don't give a shit.
I just like my own dude.
Can I kind of frame it at least in a way that we can maybe build off here?
So, I think that, look, I was in the ENS side of things, like, throughout the last bull cycle, and fucking at one point, my ENS were, dude, worth an insane amount.
More money.
It would probably have been my biggest win ever, and I held because I kept thinking Dubai and Saudi Arabia was going to wake up and buy my fucking two-digit Arabic ENS,
and it never fucking happened.
And you know what ended up happening?
You should have bought a FIFA team instead.
You made them.
Dude, I had offers on some of these things for, like, a fucking ridiculous amount of money.
And, I mean, not, like, millions of dollars or anything, but, like, a lot of money to me.
And, um, I fucking held.
I round-tripped to zero.
And now people are just, like, dumping.
Like, if you actually look at what's happening in the ENS community right now, tons of people are just, like, dumping into Weeth bits at a crazy rate because they're starting to realize, one, nobody wants to rock their .Eth anymore because this whole Soulverse ETH thing.
And, which, by the way, I don't feel that way.
I still think .Eth is, like, ENS is still cool to me.
But, um, anyway, the point is, when ENS was popping off heavily, there was first three-digit ENS.
Then four-digit ENS happened when the threes got minted out.
I've gone on this rant many times.
Five-digit, six-digits, palindrones, reverse, negative ENS, passport ENS.
There was Emoji ENS, Eethmoji ENS, Harry Potter named ENS, every Pokemon ENS, which actually pumps quite heavily.
And then you had Mandarin ENS, Russian ENS, every single thing that you could possibly imagine.
And, like, they were just cycles.
And there was actually a fucking โ what is the website?
It was, like, ENS something.
And this was before OpenSea even had categories for ENS.
And they had โ this website had such a chokehold on the market that they could just list whatever category and it would just become its own collection.
So people started to chase it.
Anyway, the point is it went so far deep down this rabbit hole of something that was once initially cool.
And, yeah, people just ended up getting burnt.
Now, I think with rare sats โ I mean, just think about this.
People go to the bank and they'll, you know, get $100 worth of pennies trying to find a wheat penny from, like, 1943,
through a steel penny from, like, 1943 or whatever the fuck because it's worth more money.
Like, all right, dude, be honest.
Literally nobody does that.
No, dude, that's not true.
People do that.
Nobody fucking does that.
Can I ask two questions here?
Name three people.
Can I ask two questions here?
Nobody goes and gets $100 worth of fucking pennies.
Stop it.
People โ
Can I ask two questions?
One.
One.
First question is โ
No, you can't because it's leaps.
No, no, no, no.
No, no, no, wait.
No, wait, Lou.
Dude, I muted him at the exact same time as you, so it muted and unmuted.
That was โ that was incredible.
That was the best mute sesh ever.
Dude, we're in sync.
I โ I โ this is insufferable.
In fact, what is the two questions?
And by the way, people do fucking go get $100 worth of pennies.
I've seen it.
They don't.
Leave.
Nobody's โ
Leave.
What fucking bank are you going to that people are getting $100 worth of pennies?
Stop it.
Oh, it's so funny.
People's got $10,000 pennies on Doug.
Stop.
People do it.
People do it.
They get the pennies.
And then they're digging โ hey, they dig through them at the bank, and then they turn
them back in if they don't find any rares.
I'm telling you, people go get $100 worth of dimes and just surf through โ look, the
point is โ
They're really gem hunting.
Bro, name three, Leap.
Name three people who do that.
All right.
Here's my two questions.
Here's my two questions, and we'll let the Ordinals guys go.
One, when you had an issue and you guys realized that you couldn't number the fucking inscriptions
and really keep track of it, you guys came up with an excuse and said, well, it's not
that big of a deal.
So explain that to me, right?
And then two, explain rare sats to me.
I don't have a question.
It's hard to explain something that didn't happen.
So, you know, again, there was no problem with numbering the inscriptions.
There were certain types of new inscriptions that wanted to be included into the protocol, but those new inscriptions include ones that were made by mistake earlier on.
And so those were added in a different way, basically.
In terms of the rare sats, it's like very simple.
I mean, it's like if you have a dollar bill, like signed by, you know, let's say you had a dollar bill signed by Abraham Lincoln from, you know, 200 years ago or whatever.
Um, that's all it is.
I mean, again, it's just some type of collectible, uh, denomination of, of currency, whether it's a misprint on a penny or it's a, um, a silver dollar or any of the various silver dollars that have existed throughout, you know, the history of the United States and currency.
And I think there was a eight, a silver dollar that sold for like $8 million, I think was one of the recent sales of the, um, uh, different silver dollars or just collectible, you know, denominations of currency.
The rare sats.
What do you say bags?
What do you say to that?
I mean, I appreciate the answer and I, and I, was that Trevor?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and, and look, I like Trevor.
I think he's a good guy, but I still think it's a super fucking grift.
I think it's the biggest bullshit out there right now in the market, but I like Trevor.
Like, I don't think Trevor's a bad guy.
I think Trevor like has really good intentions and he's in on something like super early.
Um, and he believes what he's saying.
So I have no ill will towards, you know, what he's saying.
Wait bags.
You don't see any value in like a rare type of currency, like a rare penny or like a signed dollar bill or anything like that.
No, I think, I think sats have been flying around all over the fucking place.
Everything, everything to me is exactly the fucking same.
So, so wait a second.
You said the grift.
Who is doing the grifting?
Oh, there's, there's fucking plenty of people.
No, I, I mean like be very specific.
Like, okay, so how do I do it with inscriptions?
Trevor.
I don't, I don't mean.
I'll answer for you.
But I, Trevor is grifting by shilling these rare sats to people around him.
Okay.
But those rare sats, they have to be inscribed first now.
Are there rare sats in the room with us right now?
Well, I, I, I kind of have a rare sat from 2011.
Well, so what?
I mean like, I do want to, I do want to mention that Leap is doing an Ornals project.
So he is part of this grift as well.
I do.
But I, yeah, I, I do want to.
I will not change Icebag's opinion.
You must not know him.
I'll say this.
I'll say this.
No, nothing can change Icebag's opinion.
Dude, if Icebag's son was doing Ornals, he'd say, I love my son, but he's a fucking grifter.
Yeah.
Yeah, he would be.
And you know what?
I'd fucking support him and I'd give him like 50K to fucking run a marketing campaign on it.
I do think a lot of the rare sats thing is, there was a ton of people just trying to chase the trend
and then they were coming up with new categories.
Again, very similar to what happened with ENS.
But for me personally, I think it's kind of cool if a sat that I own or that my art is inscribed on came from like an original block that Satoshi mined or something.
I don't know.
There's a story to that.
That's kind of cool.
Like to me, that's.
I also want the first NSA blocked.
I mean, sorry, Satoshi blocked.
Sorry.
That's actually crazy.
I mean, I'm pretty sure it was.
I don't think one person figured this whole thing out.
I'm pretty sure it was a group of people who probably worked for the CIA who were like, hey, how else do we want laundered money?
Never mind.
Sorry.
What?
I'm going to mute.
All right.
And that was the last we ever heard of, Jonah.
And if you.
I mean, I'm not big enough.
One of the big problems with Bitcoin, actually, why the CIA likes it so much or the FBI or whatever, is because it's so easy to track, you know, these these transactions across the Bitcoin blockchain.
So it's like you're familiar with like 20 minutes per transaction.
So they got like they can get a coffee, a fucking donut.
So here's a hot comment.
This is actually from Captain Southpaw.
Two hot takes.
They said hot take one.
Most people saying they were pumping soul the whole time weren't.
I don't even think that's a hot take.
I 100 percent agree with you.
Everyone says they bought soul at eight dollars.
Most of you are fucking liars to actual hot take.
50-50, so 50 percent of institutions are backing the ETF so that they can legitimize their bags, cash out, and pull liquidity, then back CBDCs and private blockchains to overtake decentralized chains.
That is a hot take.
That's a hot take.
What do you think, bags?
Absolutely not.
Here's the problem is if they front run this shit, and I've talked to a lot of guys that are in, you know, that are traders at trading desks, et cetera, and they've been given very, very, very specific rules.
Now, of course, they don't follow them, but it's like do not fucking trade Bitcoin.
Do not buy Bitcoin ahead of this, yada, yada, yada.
That's been a very common thing to come across desks lately.
So I do not think it's โ here's the thing.
Guys, it's not about the fucking trading desks buying Bitcoin.
It's not about that.
It's about them making a percentage on all the shit they sell, and now they have a new product, a new fucking gold, a new shiny rock that they can sell to their people, and they make a percentage on it.
It's not a fucking sell-the-news event in any fucking position.
Ice, I have a hot take, and I want to see if you'd agree.
If Stake.com today made an L1, it would surpass Solana in a year.
Yes.
I mean, dude, that's not even that crazy of a take.
Stake.com has a lot of users and a lot of โ
I think it would be a number two chain within two years.
Dude, I think if Apple came out with a chain, it would be the biggest chain in the world.
No, no, it's different.
Well, it's different.
I'm talking about like โ
Apple wouldn't.
Google would.
If Google came out with a chain, you don't think it would be the biggest chain?
I think you have to understand that people โ
I don't think people would use it in the same way.
People would resent Apple because it's Apple, and those who like Apple just like the hardware.
Stake has people who are diehard fans of it, and I think if Stake didn't L1, it would be a top three chain within two years.
Naveem nailed it, right?
Like everything is a gambling opportunity in crypto.
And for Stake to do it, Stake has the fucking user base that's crypto native, and they would absolutely use it.
Here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
If Stake came out and said, hey, we're starting an L1, Stake layer, and if you farm this shit, we're going to do an airdrop.
It would be fucking massive.
And every kick streamer who's been there for at least a year gets their shit as well.
So A&R is all โ
Right.
Massive.
Massive.
The thing is, all they would have to do is a fee buyback model to this Fugazi token and have an unlimited perpetual up-only chart that DGens would block.
Now I'm saying this openly because I'm hoping that someone from Stake hears this conversation and takes it to their team because I would like to buy that token.
Dude, also, can you imagine if the kick streamers got the fucking airdrop?
XQC, 100%.
Dude, XQC, Nick Merckx.
Dude, all of them.
I've told them.
I've told them, Jonah.
And you know this.
I almost bought kick.
You know this.
You know my story.
I almost bought kick right before Stake did.
And I've told them this.
And they just โ they simply just don't have a fucking interest in it.
I think if they did it, it would be the number one gaming chain, the number one gambling chain.
It would be far superior to Solana, not from a developer side, but from a user acquisition side, 100%.
Wait, and then the developers would jump ship.
You don't have any of the chain.
Blast just passed the billion dollars value locked.
But Blast doesn't have the type of customers that Stake has, though.
You don't need customers.
You just need their money.
Yeah, you need users.
You need brand.
So wait, hold on.
Brand is important.
What about RLB then?
That's literally an SPO.
RLB?
Yeah.
Robert?
Yeah, but it's not the same as Stake.
We're talking โ
Robert has major issues.
Yeah.
Not even a quote.
We're talking like Drake level, you know.
Okay.
Don't click the volumes.
One of these days โ we'll go to the hands first, but then I've got to come circle back to you back.
Oh, last thing, if they don't do it, then you need a conglomerate chain of every casino in Vegas who has, like, betting licenses and stuff to do it.
You're a conglomerate.
Look, bags, we've got to โ we'll go to the hands, and then I want to come โ that would be crazy, Jonah, but I would need to hear the story of how you almost bought kick before steak.
That's crazy.
So we'll go to the hands first.
That is ridiculous, honestly.
Okay, I'm throwing it over to Buckets first.
Buckets, what's up?
What's your hot take?
Okay.
My hot take is that Jaleel is responsible for the majority of success and visualized value.
I mean, Jaleel is a go.
I mean, I'm not going to lie.
He's super talented.
And I'll expand on that.
I'll expand.
Don't get me wrong.
I love Jack's art.
I am a collector.
I own a bunch.
It's not about that.
I think that what made it pop off in the first place was all the shit that Jaleel coded and actually shipped, and not the fact that โ it had nothing necessarily to do with the art.
The art happened to fit the style of what Jaleel shipped, and that's why it kind of worked.
I just believe the reason why it became โ like, it revitalized the open edition meta, the reason why these burns happened was strictly because of Jaleel's work.
But, like, you have to have a champion, and Jack's the better champion, so he's getting the flowers.
It's not like he doesn't deserve flowers.
I just think that Jaleel is solely responsible for the full send of visualized value.
And โ because, like, a lot of people were initially turned off by checks because they thought โ like, I don't believe this, but people thought it was like, oh, Damien Hirst, cool.
Like, I saw this shit.
It's cool.
It's a good take.
I think what Opepin did was, like โ I think Opepin is Jack's best work when it comes to visualized value because, like, it kind of was just perfect, and then ThreadPepin kind of, like, solidified that.
But the reason why it full send was Jaleel.
It wasn't Jack.
So, I โ look, I think Jaleel is incredibly talented.
I'm not going to say one person is more responsible for the other.
We've got to go to Warren for this one as well because he works with them.
But I'll say this.
I think you're underestimating the impactfulness of the arts that check was.
And, yeah, it was like a Damien Hirst derivative.
I understand that.
But you have to remember this happened very soon after the check was introduced to Twitter, right?
So, it was the night โ this is when, you know, people could start paying $8 and get a check by their name.
Correct me if I'm wrong about the timeline.
But it was so impactful because of that.
And it was art that people were kind of familiar with because of Damien Hirst.
So, it just hit.
It just hit.
But I'll throw it over to Warren.
Warren, I mean, what do you think about Bucket's take?
I mean, I think it's a strong take.
It has a lot of strength to it because, I mean, Jalil is absolutely an integral aspect to everything.
No doubt about it.
So, whether you want to call it, like, percentages or โ I don't know if that's even fair.
But just the complementary work that, you know, took place, takes place, will take place.
You know, just a bunch of different facets.
Yeah, like, my take is not necessarily trying to diminish one and lift the other up.
I'm saying โ
Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying, though.
I mean, like, especially, like, this most recent Opepin drop.
It's just โ I mean, I mean, now Jack is even, like, learning more code just to be able to understand what the fuck Jalil's doing.
Because Jalil's just cooking up these crazy, you know, outputs, you know, and, like, Jalil's just, you know, the first smart contract he studied was the punks.
And, you know, I mean, and, yeah, so he's just basically self-taught and self-solidity and, you know, I mean โ
Yeah, because my take is more on, like, price action, right?
It's based on โ
Yeah, in terms of the non-linear growth based on the developments and stuff, the ships, like you said, of course.
You know, at the same time, though, Jack is stealing the ship a thousand percent, so.
But Jack's a marketing genius, right?
Like, everybody's like, oh, well, you know, who's the best artist?
They're like, Jack Butcher.
And I'm like, he's not a fucking artist.
Like, he's a fucking marketing guy.
What, are you a Beanie Maxie?
What's that?
Are you a Beanie Maxie Maxie?
Icebags is Beanie, by the way.
Yeah, I am big.
Oh, okay.
That makes sense.
I just look at Jack as just a marketer.
I mean, I โ it's hard for me to say he's not.
Hey, marketing is a really hard job, honestly.
No, for sure, but, like โ
I mean, fundamentally, Jack's a graphic โ
That's a big deal.
Fundamentally, he's a graphic designer.
Fundamentally.
Like, the best artists are marketers, actually.
You say graphic designer.
Fundamentally, graphic designer.
Like, if you're a top marketer โ
Then, so, Jack grew up in the UK and then moved to New York.
And then, yeah, I mean, it's just foundationally speaking,
he studied graphic design in college, moved to New York,
worked for advertising agencies and whatnot.
So, I mean, creating an advertisement is a form of art and design, you know.
So, I mean, it's just, like, I hate when these lines blur with, like, marketers.
Steve Jobs is a good marketer, man.
I mean, for Christ's sakes, it's about telling a story and capturing the zeitgeist, you know.
And then before Beeple was put in, you know, he was making checks, you know,
and Opep and the whole thread guy thing.
Like, those are totally, like, PG, you know, rated movies, but, like, you know,
those are good times back in February, July and stuff, you know.
I mean, right now, I don't even know what's going on right now,
but I did have a question for the Bitcoin folks about Stacks and a specific coin called the Welsh Coin.
Have you guys seen anything about that?
Or is that just, like, a Fiat, just a Ponzi?
I'm a Welsh millionaire, guys, just not in Fiat terms.
Warren, it is all a Ponzi.
Is it a Ponzi, Trevor, or is it legit?
Like, is it really, like, was it made two years ago or not?
Oh, yeah, it was made two years ago.
But speaking as a Welsh millionaire, not in Fiat terms, I have to say I'm bullish on Welsh.
Trevor, I might have to send you a DM.
Trevor, I might have to send you a DM just to understand Stacks,
because I've never really been interested in anything, like, on top of Bitcoin like that.
So, I might need to...
You're in for a surprise using Stacks, as many Bitcoin people have used it.
The experience is basically Bitcoin, but arguably worse at this point.
It's like...
Just be patient with it, because there's so many wallet issues that you can encounter.
Yeah, Welsh is sick.
Stacks is pretty sick.
It's going to get better.
I wanted to derail this conversation a little bit.
But have you guys seen that X has become effectively a blockchain,
and inscriptions are now called Xscriptions?
So, you can actually tweet a JSON, I guess, code.
There's people that are minting out deployments and minting out tokens with tweets,
and they're being indexed against some sort of ledger.
People are using the authentication through a MetaMask that links your Twitter account and Arbitrum, I believe.
And now we have CryptoPunks being minted out right now as Xscriptions.
But why?
Yeah, so you just tweet a CryptoPunk to mint it, right?
There's a process to it.
You've got to tweet out the Base64 address, the CryptoPunk ID, and a couple other things to give it a proper reference.
Yeah, so is this a top signal, guys?
Because the bull run is supposed to be starting, but I'm just seeing top signals left.
I think it is, bro.
I really do.
I think people might sell in January just for tax purposes.
What's the point of...
I'm just saying.
I'm just speaking in terms of like...
Like, you know, we got...
Yeah, where's...
I mean...
No, hold on.
What is this...
I saw this thing earlier today, Farmer, that you're talking about.
What ledger is this being stored on?
Is there a chain?
Like, how does that...
Dude, like, if you think about it, like, anything can be used as a ledger of record, right?
So, in this case, the X feed and the feed that's publicly available is the ledger.
So, we're using X as a ledger.
We're using a third-party meta protocol to index all of this from the ledger.
And then we're...
I think what someone's trying to do is create a marketplace using MetaMask and Arbitrum for
these assets.
It's so fun.
Did you guys hear about this new technology called SQL?
I heard it's like a million times faster than blockchain.
Like, these new SQL databases are like blockchain, but it's like, it's faster than Solana, actually.
It's crazy.
It's actually not faster than Solana.
Here's a hot take that was put in my DMs.
This is...
I won't say the name of the person.
But they said, hot takes or hot take bitmaps are nothing but a line of code and a bunch
of grifter shilling narratives.
So, what is the...
I saw this whole bitmaps thing that happened.
And then obviously, like, ChartFu kind of launched this soulmaps thing on Solana.
Like, what is going on?
What is this thing?
So, I mean, it's become...
It's just...
It's like one of these things like that...
You know, only in the crypto space, I think you have this phenomenon where like pigs can
fly, but then they turn into a bird mid-flight where it's like kind of the age-old story.
Even with Bitcoin to an extent, it's like it goes from nothing to becoming, you know, worth
billions of dollars from a lot of just ideology and like pure like cults, you know?
Like, and so, you know, a cult can turn into like a network effect that's extremely powerful.
And I think that when bitmaps started, obviously, I faded it because it's...
The merit of it is like a...
It's like Sandbox or Decentraline or whatever, but there's no company behind it.
And I think that that is only useful if you can reach a significant scale to where other
people want to build on it and it actually becomes a benefit.
Because to get that initial scale, you need like a game or something, right?
To get users.
But bitmap was able to gain all the users organically and reach a significant market cap to where
it's become a completely different beast, in my opinion.
Trevor, man, that doesn't matter.
How many Bitcoin blocks do you own based on your bitmaps?
You know what this reminds me of?
Is it reminds me of loot.
Bitmaps, like, it reminds me of loot, if you guys are familiar with it.
It kind of, yeah, it kind of is.
But I think that, again, it's like, we see this with...
This is the reason that ETH L2s are so fragmented is because all of the layer one applications
are worth like more than the L2s.
Like OpenSea's last valuation was like $13 billion.
And there is not an ETH L2 worth $13 billion.
I guess maybe Polygon, but you get what I'm saying?
It's like, if the market cap of the network that you're trying to plug into is worth less
than your company, you're not going to plug into the network.
And so something like a bitmap where the whole idea is like a metaverse people are going to
build on, until that reaches like $200 to a billion market cap, it's not really attractive
for like a game developer to come and build on it.
But now it just reached like $200 million market cap.
So it actually does start to get interesting for developers to get distribution.
Nah, game developers aren't going to give a shit.
As someone who talks and works with game developers, they're not going to give a single fuck.
I'll give you an example.
Parallel is just doing their own thing.
If Parallel keeps going, they're going to get so popular.
Likely what will happen is either they're going to do a modular blockchain, or they'll just
go do their own L2 and they'll call it the prime chain, because that's just like how
it works with these...
They don't care about...
Sure, I guess it depends on the size of the game developer, of course.
Indie developers want to do their own thing as well.
I mean, personally, beforehand, before it was like the size is now, I would not launch
a project on it myself.
But now that it is at $200 million market cap and has a massive holder base and just
it's been incredibly durable and the volume is just non-stopped, I would launch something
on it.
So that changes it for me.
Can you do another token on it?
No, I wouldn't do a token on it.
They're not going to do it because indie developers see how much money some of these games make
on a token launch and they're like, well, why would I do it on it?
Oh yeah, you can do a token on top of it.
You can do a token on top of it.
Okay, well then maybe.
Because the whole thing is about how much money they can make.
Indie devs work for like two years on a game and they're just going to want to do their
own thing if they can't make a lot of money.
I mean, Jonah, like people, these game developers are paying Yugo Labs just to put their name
on things, right?
Like there's many games launching that are just paying Yugo Labs for the distribution of
their community to put their name on it.
I think that's slowly degrading as I've talked to the developers.
I think that was the case earlier this year.
I don't think that's the case so much lately.
Well, that's fair, but they still did it and I think that they're going to do it again
if they see distribution opportunities to latch onto an existing network.
And I think Bitmap has enough of an entranched position to, and there's no owner of it.
There's no one that you need to sign a license with.
There's a much cheaper, I mean, like literally one of my clients is Nifty Island and they just
go and make everyone's NFT and put it in the game.
And they optimize their spend way more than just paying BAYC to use like a BAYC license
for a full BAYC game.
I think you're going to see a lot more of that.
A lot of my other potential clients, actually no, my other client who hasn't released until
like next year, they're going to do the same thing.
Like they'll go reach out to Icebags, like we'll go get some pandas, we'll go get some
pudgies.
Trevor, we'll go get your NFTs.
I'm going to spend a fraction of the cost and what I'm going to do is I'm going to
buy it from one of your holders.
So I'll make your holders, you know, some money and it's way cheaper for us than to go
directly through you to make like a Trevor game.
Yo, hit me up with that company in the DMs, by the way.
It's pretty cool.
But I would say they're not mutually exclusive.
I know, but well, the whole thing about development is like, what's the cheapest way to get the
max amount of users?
The cheapest way that we found with pretty much every client we worked with is like, am
I going to pay Icebags 2 million for a Kanpai license?
Or am I going to say, hey, Icebags, I want to buy 10 Kanpai pandas, pick the holders you
think deserve to get paid.
And like, it's still good for Icebags because his holders are getting value and it's just cheaper.
I'm open to the two mil.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure.
I'm just saying like, we call like Nifty Island's doing this mystery society, which is not out
until next year.
But this is not, I'm not like, I mean, I would say, I would say there's still, there's still
friction in that process because you do have to know the name of the company to reach out
to the company.
They have to do business development deals.
Yeah, but that's why they pay us.
But I'm a fraction of the cost compared to going to UGA directly.
Yeah, sure.
But again, like there's, there's value to just like an open permissionless, you know, kind
of network of people that you just say, hey, we're going to, you know, add utility to this
existing, you know, land that everybody has who are all interested in metaverse type stuff.
I think if that was the case, then Kevin Rose wouldn't have left for threads.
I mean, Kevin Rose is, I don't think he's been hungry for, for years.
I'm saying he made it CC zero and then people were like, yeah, CC sent it to zero.
Okay.
All right.
Let me jump in here.
Um, I got to say in regards to the metaverse, you got to give him credit for CC sent it to
zero though.
Yeah, no, it's got to give the credit where credit's due.
Look, in terms of the metaverse thing, the way that it existed in the last bull cycle, anything
that's even reminiscent of how that was, that is coming out now to me, it's just like
a big turnoff and maybe I'm a hater or whatever, but that's why I like the bitmap thing, the
soul map thing.
Yeah.
Leap.
The thing is that, that, uh, that bitmaps market cap is more than other side and sandbox
combined now.
Yeah.
But like, go look at what Decentraland was in the last bull market.
Just the token.
Yeah, it's totally, I agree with that.
I agree with that.
But it's the only thing on Bitcoin and I think that gives it credibility and there's
no company behind it and it's already bigger than all the other metaverses combined.
Um, okay.
And so it's something you got to keep note of, I think.
That's not, I don't know if that's entirely a fair statement.
Like I love Bitcoin as much as the next person probably put, eventually want to like put
some art on Bitcoin, whatever it is.
But like, just because something's on Bitcoin does not give it inherent value that is greater
than something.
Like it's not just because it's on Bitcoin, it's not better than everything else.
Well, it has a 200 million market cap.
So the 200 million market cap gives it value.
But the fact that it's on Bitcoin and people want to build on Bitcoin, um, it's the only
option.
If they want to build something related to it.
I mean, it's like a sand and a manna and Decentraland and Illuvium and like all, there's so many
different things that exist that have massive market caps.
And to me, that's not valid.
They don't work.
I can tell you why, because I know a lot about the Unreal Engine ecosystem.
I know, I know way too much about Fortnite and UEFN has data caps.
So even when there's not fixed land, they have data caps.
So it's like, do you actually can't build what you want on top of anything that has a lot
of money because if you can't do it on Fortnite, which is valued at over $30 billion, I can tell
you that like, you're not going to do it with a little $200 million shit coin.
It just doesn't work.
Frank, what do you think about this?
You're a big fan of the metaverse.
I think that the biggest takeaway from all the metaverses is that there's a deep consumer
demand for buying digital land.
Well, I mean, that's definitely a fair take.
I disagree.
I think there's a deep demand for founders wishing that people would want to buy land.
No, people mint it and buy it all the time.
Speculators buy it.
No, agreed.
But my point is like, it's a clean, simple kind of narrative.
I don't think anyone's made it work yet, but I'm just pointing out the demand.
But yeah, that's all.
There's definitely a ton of demand.
And even in, dude, like I know in Web 2 games, we were wishing for over a decade that we could
buy our own land in RuneScape and World of Warcraft and all these things.
People love that.
No, they wish for their own servers.
Some people did.
And servers are different from land inherently.
No, dude, in Warlords of Draenor, when they said that there was going to be land in World of
Warcraft and be able to have your own houses and things like that, when they took it away,
it was a massive uproar.
People were fucking, like, trust me, people want to be able to own land.
All I'm saying is in regards to, like, the crypto house.
So Final Fantasy Online tried that, and actually it was so bad that they now have to police
it because what happened is people just held the house.
They basically turned into BlackRock.
They all bought the houses.
No one can use them.
And now there's an ARB market.
So basically, by the way, what Icebag said about OmniChain NFTs, that already happens
on Final Fantasy Online.
There is an ARB fish market where people go from one server and farm for cheaper fish and
then sell it in the more premium market at a slight, like, less rate.
Like, the level of economics that's already been figured out there, I'm just telling you
how this has gone in the end.
And what ultimately works is the fact that content creators making the games and providing
traffic has provided the best value for any of these entities.
Because when you scale up, there is a cost at the server level.
So what happens is, yes, you start with a lot of money, then the data caps come in, and
then it becomes actually too expensive to run your metaverse.
And what happens is the best way to offset that cost is to just go through Kik or Twitch
streamers to help with traffic on branded experiences.
And that's what Sandbox has figured out.
That's what they're doing right now.
I'm a huge fan of the metaverse and land.
I actually, last cycle, I bought Asgard from CryptoCities.
It's fucking phenomenal.
Yeah, I think you're missing the point here.
It's pretty simple.
I think that there's a demand for people that want to find the right type of digital land
that they enjoy and like and creates a good experience.
And, you know, there's a school of thought.
You can either think about how an idea won't work or what would need to happen for it to
work.
And I hear your point on what Sandbox's strategy is right now.
But, you know, we have to see the results play out.
I think Axie's in a similar spot right now, too.
There's a lot of excitement around, you know, what's this like comeback of Axie going to
look like?
It's just tricky.
I don't know.
You have to kind of see it to believe it.
And I think that's, but I'm excited.
I think there's potential there.
I like these perspective games.
So I'll do a perspective thing for you.
So you mentioned that D-Gods, you know, is doing a network state.
And by the way, I'm not, this is not going to be a criticizing question, but here's how
I see it when I, when you tell me that.
I say, do I want to buy some Sandbox land where the DAU is about 500 people a day, give
or take, because you can actually go look and see what the DAU is, or do I want to buy
Frank D-Gods land?
And to do that, I just need to buy one D-Gods PFP and he's getting 100,000 interactions
a day and that doesn't require any game.
So maybe the secret isn't buying land in a fucking game.
The PFP is the land sale because you're buying a parcel of the community.
You just hit bars.
This is the first time I feel like in months we've been on the exact same page, but we should
actually chat because that's exactly how I see it, honestly.
And I think that the benefits of owning land is valuable.
Yeah, I think so too.
I think it's, you know, there's certain things that need to be built to literalize it for
people and that's what I'm excited about.
And I actually would love to talk to you about it because you articulated it really well.
But I think that's actually, you know, even when people think about building on their quote
unquote IP, I think that's what they actually mean.
Like they're buying property on the internet and they're developing and making that property
more valuable, which is intrinsic to what people already do.
And yeah, I think that's a reframe.
PFP collections can be looked at as property over just a collectible.
So this is why I literally said why when world royalties died, so did this entire like
whole paradigm shift.
Because when I looked at PFPs and the reason why I still like am excited to do one myself,
as I look at this and I say, oh, this isn't about like, this isn't just community.
Like that's kind of like the network effect.
But this is actually like rethinking the franchising model.
Because if you look at McDonald's, McDonald's, as we all know, is a franchise.
Jonah, you're fucking spitting right now, bro.
Yes, yes, yes.
So it's just like, so when I look at this, I go, okay, like we've never been able to
franchise on the internet.
That's really interesting.
And if you tell a Fortune 500 that you can franchise businesses on the internet, like if
you franchised a website, then they're like, that makes sense.
But I don't believe in franchising inside a video game unless it's servers.
I don't believe in land.
I believe in server space.
So basically what 5M does with GTA, because that's just an extension of a community parcel.
But I don't believe in direct land caps.
Jonah, what did you eat today, bro?
You're on, you're on a wave right now.
No, I'm always like, I'm following you a hundred percent.
Yeah, I agree.
On the servers point too.
That's fascinating.
I never thought about it like that.
Wow.
Am I lying?
This is Jonah 24-7 though.
I always like listening to Jonah.
On the basis, I just fuck around.
This is not Jonah.
Yeah, I always like listening to Jonah.
This is not Jonah 24-7.
But Jonah, I promise you it is.
I like to troll on spaces.
No, there's a funny Jonah, but this was like a sincere one.
And anyway, I messaged you, man.
We should chat.
I think, I see very crystal clear what you're describing.
And I'm honestly excited to talk to you about some of the stuff there.
It's cool.
Jonah, so I'll tell you a funny one.
So we bought out Rainy Studios, right?
And they had a fucking game on Epic Game Store.
Guess how many players they had?
Probably like 50 a day.
Like, like 150, 200 DAU.
And I'm like, what the fuck?
You know what I mean?
Like, we bought out a gaming studio, Web3, with a fucking game on Epic Game Store.
200 DAUs.
Now, we'll change that.
Because we've got some IPs and shit that are coming in.
I shouldn't say it.
We've got an IP that we bought.
We've got a distributor, a publisher in South America that's going to take over and handle that deal.
But like, that's how crazy this shit is.
But people don't realize it.
You know what I mean?
Like, people are like, oh, there's fucking hundreds of thousands.
Well, I don't actually know how the money is made.
Like, that's the problem.
So, as someone who's like, this is why I do what I do.
And people are like, oh, why do you want to, why do you do go to market for games?
I'm like, you guys have no idea how much fucking money is in that business.
Because everyone goes to Steam or they go to Epic Game Store and they think that they do the publishing and the distribution for them.
No, because they actually lose money doing that because it costs money to acquire users.
So, you just use the wishlist system.
That's about it.
You can technically pay Steam, but like, no one really does that because it doesn't make any sense.
So, like, the type of games I'm interested in, which is what I did with Improbable last month, is games that are based on making money around traffic and ad deals.
Because now the cost of acquiring customers is so high that it's better to just acquire baskets of users from different brands.
So, like, if Frank has a brand and I know that he has 10,000 DAU and I can map that and Icebags, you have, like, around the same.
Okay, what is the rate to acquire, you know, 20,000, you know, MAU from these two people and do I pay them directly through a licensing deal or do I acquire their holders and then see if they're going to do an affiliate marketing campaign?
Because effectively, you're just building baskets of content creators that you can basically create it.
Like, if there was a marketplace, and this is something I've thought about, but it's too complicated yet right now, but it'll be solved eventually, is a peer-to-peer marketplace to acquire baskets of users who are monetized to want to do it.
Like, so, like, for example, so if I had a game on Fortnite and I had Fortnite code 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, I'd say, okay, you know, I've spent $100,000 on this property because that's about the base cost for a Fortnite Bed Wars game.
And I go, I need users who are between 20 and 30, they like speculation because it's like a roulette game.
And I need people who can make content that are primarily on Twitter and Instagram, okay?
So I'll go to Frank's team, I go, Frank, I see you're on our peer-to-peer marketplace, like, which holders should I acquire that are going to do the best affiliate marketing?
And it's actually cheaper than if I go to YouTube and I go, hey, Markiplier, I'm going to pay you $500,000 to play this game for 30 minutes.
And maybe of those people, you know, $20,000 play but for, like, one week.
Yeah.
Yeah, so here's what we did is we, and I'll just spit some fucking alpha here, we bought the, or we own the rights to Lucha Libre, which is a huge fucking IP.
It's like WWE for South America, right?
So we own Lucha Libre, we've already got the game in place, we've already got the publisher in place in South America that's going to distribute the game.
And that's how you make fucking money.
That's how you make money in the gaming industry.
You've got to get a fucking publisher, you've got to get a distribution channel, and then you can actually make some money.
Other than that, you're just pissing in the wind.
Which I wouldn't recommend, by the way, do not piss in the wind.
I mean, I've done it plenty of times, it's not good.
Okay, well, plenty is one time too many.
But look, I'll throw it to, who hasn't spoken yet?
I just wanted to talk about the metaverse for a couple seconds.
And I kind of wanted to get your guys' takes on the Apple, what is it, the ProVision?
And if you guys envision any crypto integrations with Apple in the next two years in a metaverse context, like VR, AR, that type of stuff.
But Jonah also mentioned network state.
I think that that's an idea that needs to start manifesting.
We're kind of going through the cabal tunnel to figure out what's really taking place here.
And basically, it's just decentralized governance.
And just like the acceleration of that is just logically like little network states.
So, I mean, whether it's like a, you know, I mean, we're talking about DAUs, right?
Daily active users in games.
It's like people play games and they're subscribed to this world that's beyond, you know, the reality.
So, I mean, like the intersection of like video game technology is with like real life.
Like, you know, like when I think of like the metaverse and metaverse land, I mean, like Jonah said about server space, like it is literally infinitely scalable and expandable.
So, it's not like, and there's going to be infinite platforms and metaverses basically.
So, it's like, you know, it's just inflationary exponentially basically.
So, you know, it's nothing like.
Yes and no.
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
But still, like relative to like Earth land and property on Earth.
And that's where the whole network state thing comes in where it's like, at what point does...
Minecraft already built it.
Yeah.
Wait, wait, what?
They actually built a replica of Earth.
It's just too taxing and easy to run.
But someone had a machine powerful enough to build.
I think it's pretty close to a simulation of Earth like generated.
I gotta also say...
No, that's pretty cool.
So, this idea of...
You kind of blew my mind with the way that you put it there, Jonah, that like PFPs are
kind of metaverse lands in a sense.
I don't know how you put it, but that shit...
I'll tell you why.
So, everyone makes fun of him, but Gabriel Layden is actually a game design genius.
Like, yeah, he's got a certain personality that I think is an acquired taste, but so does
everyone here.
But he has a saying that literally, like, every time I work on something, I think about
this every time I say, he goes, the game is not played on the screen, the game is played
in your head.
And what happens is a lot of founders are optimizing so hard for what's on the screen that they're
not thinking about, like, psychologically the way you feel and what's triggering you to
feel a certain way.
It's why, like, the stupidest games that have a 100k budget outperform Call of Duty.
Like, it's not about what's on the screen.
So, if you think about it, like, Frank's PFP isn't moving.
It's just interesting colors, and it's supposed to evoke something because of the way that
Frank talks means that he's, like, basically a Disney World character, right?
He's taking on that persona, right?
So, if I'm like, okay, what game is Frank playing?
Well, Frank is playing, like, this L.A., you know, like, growth thing.
Is that a game that I want to play?
And then I go into his game, and, like, what's his loop?
But if his loop sucks, then I'm going to leave the game really quickly.
And that's what a lot of NFT PFPs lose.
And that's, like, when people say utility, they don't actually want utility.
They want a game loop, a repeatable thing that gets them coming back.
But every single PFP is basically losing that because the things that they want as utility
are not loop generative.
That's why gambling works, because it has a pattern.
You come in, you throw your money on the table, you have an extra chance of taking your
money or losing your money, and then you go home, you eat, you come back, and you do
it again.
That's what a lot of these are losing, and that's why they all want to do games, because
they're all missing a loop.
Wait, Frank, do you want to respond to that?
You said he was an L.A. growth guy.
What is that?
No, I get where Jonah's coming.
I think in analogy, even to make it clear for people in the audience as well, you know,
when you buy a home, it's interesting because you actually, like, will spend time and money,
you know, both on improving the place if you want to flip it, similar to how you, you know,
help market a project, grow it, whatever it is, talk about it, you know, to improve the
value in which you can flip it.
But if you really like it, you're probably going to stay, and your neighbors matter a
lot.
You know, if you imagine, again, PFP is like this, you know, limited supply neighborhood,
almost, right?
10,000 houses in a neighborhood.
Um, if a lot of the neighbors are dicks or lame, you know, you might be less interested
in moving in that neighborhood or the value of that neighborhood might go down.
The most apt meme for this is, you know, in nice neighborhoods, people get upset when
someone in that neighborhood lists their house for too cheap because it actually devalues
the value of the, you know, subsequent houses in that neighborhood.
And I think that's very similar to PFPs because it's a meme, but people do control the floor
at the end of the day.
They're choosing which price they want to sell it at.
And, um, you know, like that's essentially what these neighborhoods, you know, are like
if you imagine again, like this is, uh, you know, what the 10,000 land plot, uh, is that
that's what PFPs could be, um, considered as, and this is actually the whole point of clarify
to me was, you know, it's really hard for people to believe this concept until they
see it, but I think it's, it's going to have so much of consumer demand and going to be
the clear place that all NFTs, um, eventually go is especially these PFP communities, because
that's like the end state, a company just can't pump it to infinity.
You know, think about all the assets that are like doing the most, like doing the best
right now in the market.
We all love NFTs that are really, really centralized, but at a certain scale, if you want these things
to get really, really big, they have to be indestructible, um, to a degree.
And, uh, that's ultimately with Ethereum, Bitcoin, all of the biggest things in crypto,
um, are, it's not like Solano, it's not like Solano labs is working, you know, on, uh, like
micro things.
It's like a self-functioning blockchain that's on all the time.
And then they keep adding things to it.
So anyway, long ramble there, but I think about them like digital, digital homes, digital property.
So what's the next step, Frank, like, like, like, so what Joan is saying, what you're
saying, these are like digital homes, digital properties, whatever, like, how does this
advance further?
Yeah, I think that they are digital property, but it's not like a, you know, fixed plot of
land in reality, you know, people can buy multiple plots of land if they think a neighborhood
is going to get more valuable or a city is going to get more valuable.
Um, so I think the analogy is already there in place.
Um, I think we just need to make cool things that literalize this concept and build the
right financial incentives along the way.
Um, and I, I think like a lot of things, you know, I could talk about it, but it's hard
for people to see.
And I think in, for example, with utelist, I talked about it for months, like the concept
around it, but nobody really gave, gave a shit.
Um, and then we put it out and it was kind of like, uh, it, it proved that, you know, the
way we were thinking about it was, was like the right framework and it went kind of
crazy.
And that's exactly how I feel about this.
Once we start making things that prove this concept out, people are going to love the feeling
of being a true owner.
Um, a specific example, end on this, I promise I'll end the ramble here.
Um, you know, we have a big three basketball team.
We own like this killer three team.
And this year, I think we want to create like software experiences around really owning the
team, picking the roster, you know, getting merch with their name on it, like getting easy
access to all the tickets and flights, like help, help you book to come out there and meet
the team.
And, you know, things like this, where you feel like an owner.
And I think that could be applied that same concept to an NFT collection as well.
Like the whole community itself, where people feel a sense of ownership, they pull out their
phone and they're flexing to their friends.
Like, Hey, I own this thing.
Look at all these things I got to do because I own it.
Um, but I think our space today is so fixated, you know, on a specific things that they are
used to interacting with, like staking or, you know, tweet, do apes follow apes or, you
know, like go listen on a marketplace.
But, um, that's not what you do with, uh, other things that you own, you know, like most
people, when they buy things, they're not instantly flipping it.
They kind of hold it.
They like it, they use it.
And eventually they might, they might sell it, you know, for a higher value.
And I think the best application for this is like home, real estate property.
Um, yeah, just in digital form and limited.
Frank, how much do you think the IRL experience, does it go hand in hand with this idea of like
these digital nation states, however you want, however you want to put it.
This is stolen straight from the network state, um, you know, book by biology, but it's actually
really important to have in real life connections, um, to, to make something feel like valuable
and also has to start owning like physical real estate, you know?
So I think, uh, biology has the best analogy.
So he calls in the network states also like cloud, cloud continents, you know, and you know,
sometimes, uh, a cloud can go from the sky and kind of form a, uh, a surface where it
gets close to the ground.
Like the clouds kind of form and touch the ground.
That's what conferences are, you know, like we're all on this internet cloud talking to
each other.
And then we go to conferences, there's like these temporary moments where we interface
with the real world.
And the whole concept of a network state is eventually getting physical land.
So in the interim time, it takes a long time to do that.
Um, in the interim time, you create these kinds of a pop-up events, um, where you get to interface
with each other in real, in real life.
And it bonds the community to a degree that's nearly impossible to do only, um, on the internet.
I need to become the property brothers of NFTs now.
Let's fucking go.
So, uh, I'm going to tell you, so I, I rag on Frank all the time and I'm going to tell
you, cause it's funny, not cause I think that he's bad at his job.
I just, I just, it's funny.
It's like no other reason.
It's not even an offensive thing, but I'm going to tell you what my favorite arc was.
Um, because I think this was like your strongest selling point.
And I think my only problem with what you do is that you, you have the same goal, but
you keep rebranding it because I don't know why you do that.
Cause I think that you, you get impatient and that you don't let an idea seep in long enough
for people to understand what the idea is.
And I think the best thing you ever did was when you called yourself the friendship company.
I'll tell you why.
Uh, product market fit, right?
There is a need in the market for people who are in their twenties and in their thirties
to find purpose.
If there, if that wasn't the case, then Andrew Tate wouldn't be as successful as he is because
that's what he sells.
He sells purpose.
Okay.
If you really nail it, he sells the feeling of something bigger than yourself.
And that's why the military existed.
And because the military isn't as popular to enlist in anymore, there needs to be some
replacement to the idea of enlisting in a military or joining a frat or being in a
cult.
So I think there was something there.
The problem you had is you didn't have a loop.
The loop being golf, the loop being tennis, the loop being, uh, yes, dude.
Oh my God.
We're on the exact same.
You didn't have like, all you had, I think all you needed to do, which I don't think it,
I don't think it's like, you couldn't do it now.
I think you could still do it.
All you needed to do was stay on the path of friendship company.
I actually think it's against your, your value to call yourself a network state company
because it's one of the same.
Agreed.
The only difference, the only difference is just which clientele you're attracting and
nobody who's 20 wants to be a part of a network state.
They want to be a part of a friendship group.
But bro, that's in the, that's not necessarily true, bro.
That's not necessarily true.
We're on the exact same page.
I think, um, my, my take on it is like what's magical about the poker events, the golf events,
the basketball events is that, uh, you know, people like to do, do things.
And the whole, my goal with the IP license we're going to put out soon as well is,
Hey, let's, let's kind of gamify, um, the process of creating a business, not just with
your individual profile picture, but with the entire brand, because D golf has built a relatively
successful niche business already.
Um, you know, just using the D brand and it's, it has a lot of upside potential here.
The analogy I always use internally is there's more people that love golf than they do NFTs.
Like there's the audience for golf is massive.
The audience for basketball is massive.
The audience for poker is massive.
So I actually think that there's a chance that, uh, I mean, that this is my entire focus of 2024.
And that's why I'm not like, you know, on the timeline.
So there's a popular YouTube.
We have to go prove it out, you know?
So like, uh, that's my goal.
Yeah, it takes time.
There's a popular YouTuber.
He goes by the name of Asmongold and he, and he's like, he looks gross, but he's actually
fucking brilliant.
The dude's a genius, like a business wizard.
And he calls it the internet dad economy.
Uh, and, and I, I'll have to find the video and send it to you.
He breaks down within 30 minutes exactly how the internet dad economy works and why now
anime waifu is, or the internet mommy, um, uh, economy, but it's pretty simple.
The thesis is pretty simple.
People are very bad at parenting.
People are very lonely.
They inherently want a parent or a mentor or a friend to have a conversation with.
And I think if you figure out what that is and you figure out the loop, then you can be one of the
most successful companies in Web3.
And I think you, I think you're very close.
Jonah, we got to chat, man.
I think, uh, I'm excited to chat because to be honest, I'm just like, now I'm kind of just
talking directly to you.
I always find your takes interesting.
Um, but I think the, the, the actions that we've done in 2023 do not map our goals.
And that's a lot of the forcing function internally that, that, that it, that it's been, you know,
read, I think what happened is you got nervous during the bear and you were trying to find a PMF
because you took on a lot of money.
And I think now that the bowl's back, you can focus on what you're actually good at,
which is one design.
You're, I mean, your fucking sites are incredible.
I honestly, if you failed, you could just start a design firm and make multiple millions a year
design, friendship and events.
You guys throw great events.
I mean, now that the Miami house, I like, I like Farouk a lot, but your house was way better
because it actually fit like something I was interested in.
And I think you're very good at physical sponsor activations.
Like if you took more Krakens and you said, well, we can do, you know, 10,000 a month on the internet,
but we could do 50,000 a month and we're going to go do like 10 States.
And now you're doing like a tour, right?
I just think there's a lot of things you could do that doesn't necessarily need to be about
trading.
And I think, I think that there's something there.
I just wish you were more focused.
That's all.
I'm excited for our chat.
The last thing I'll add to it is one other variable for you to consider is, you know,
I think what we missed big time in 2023 is just building the proper funnel.
And that's like, honestly, what I'm the best in the, in the world at for me is like, you
know, finding unique, unique businesses and creating strong, like, you know, first principles
based like growth funnels around them.
And I feel like we have it for NFTs.
We're just in the middle of building the dashboards internally right now to like optimize towards
But that's to me, the final piece, because I think what you can't ignore and to your point
on me getting impatient, I feel like I, where it's my biggest strength and weakness is I'm
a deep reflection of our, of, of our community.
Like I honestly do, um, love like the holders and the people in the community and I care
about them.
And so for me, it's like, they can get very impatient.
And I feel like that because I'm such a mirror, you need to max optimize for holders who want
to meet IRL and anyone who doesn't meet IRL, you just think of them as an afterthought, even if they
bought, I, that sounds terrible, but if your business is about connecting people, it, it has to be
inherently IRL and the people who show up should get the highest reward, even if they weren't the biggest
buyers.
I love what you're saying.
And I think where it connects to what we were saying earlier too, on the digital plots of land, you don't
actually need to go meet up with people IRL just in the same way.
You don't actually need to love plushies to see the upside in building that, um, and, and still
wanting to own property in that quote unquote, like neighborhood, because that's how I think this NFT
thing works is that it's very difficult to create, like not everyone that holds a Yuga asset is going
to play other side.
That being said, they're all aligned incentively to, uh, help grow the awareness and spread the usage
of other side because there's aligned incentives.
And so I think it's similar here where you don't need everyone to want to meet up IRL.
Um, but at the same time, like people can root for that as a core function, you know, of what the
community or what the business does, but what I'll, well, what I'll point to you and what we'll talk
about in our conversation is I think what you can't uncouple is that all NFT communities are inherently
non-monolithic.
They're not one single identity, just in the nature of the existing audience that we have here in web three
today. And I think that's actually an advantage. If you can build the right system to create
different niches within your, within your community, different leaders that can grow the different
segments of the, of the brand and create different customer acquisition channels or holder acquisition
channels. If you want to make it even more like first principles to our space.
Um, and I, I think you get, I think, I think you can get where I'm going with that, but, uh, dude, I'm, I'm
excited for our chat. Uh, I'm looking forward to it. We should go, we should lock in. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm around. I'm, I'm working during the break. Uh, I have, I have, I have, this is exciting
because yeah, we're, we're talking the same language here. This is sick. I, this is the thing I'm that,
you know, I joke, I also joke in spaces, but, uh, practically speaking, like this is to me,
the biggest opportunity bar none in the, in the NFT ecosystem, if done well. And, um, it makes it all
make sense. It makes every variable in the NFT and business, you know, and a company operations,
um, click together, but it just hasn't really been done well yet. And I messaged you that example.
Like if Airbnb had shitty pictures, it would have died. And in the same way, a lot of ideas can be
solid, but if there's not like this focus on quality, then any idea that's inherently peer to
peer or many to many is going to fail unless there's a bar of quality that's implemented throughout it,
whether that's people using the IP, whether that's people creating clubs, whether that's, you know,
whatever it is. And so building the system that creates quality is what I think YC does really
well. For example, um, you know, they have so much of content that they put around how to make a
great startup. They have such a great network effect there that I think that could be applied
in a lot of ways here. But, um, anyway, um, yeah, just super interesting. I get really passionate
about this. Ice bags can go, but I have, I have one point on, so this is my only, and again,
I could be wrong. So like, don't like be like, Oh, okay. Jonah knows everything. I think your focus
on YC is actually what's killing you. So I don't mean YC as a startup incubator. I mean it as a
community, um, function, like the community itself and the way they organize that community
is really incredible. And when we do our call, I'll screen share you, um, you know,
I won't share anything, all that. No, totally. I'll screen share you like how book face works.
I think that's, what's going to make it click for you. Cause when I talk about YC, I think
there's the public person perception of it. What I mean more is like the backend community
that it forms. And to me, like, it's one of the most magical internet communities I've ever
been a part of. And, um, that, that's honestly more what I mean, but obviously the, the Twitter
guys, you know, like the thread guys, they're going to like hear the word Y Combinator and
interpret it in a different way. Um, but that's not at all what I mean.
So there's, um, yeah, there's a group on YouTube that, that does extremely well. Patrick, I forget
his last name, but basically they have their own YC and it's just for content creators.
So I think instead of trying to, people don't want, people want things served to them. That's
what like McDonald's exists because people are fucking lazy, not cause like, and that
doesn't make them bad. That's just the net human thing. So people, people are, don't want
to go outside and look for friends. They don't want to, they don't want to solve events. They
don't even want to fucking like go on dates. They want to swipe on Tinder. Why do you think
Tinder is charging 500 bucks a month? So you could, you know, hopefully find a girl. If you
Jonah, I think you have all the puzzle pieces. Here's the connection you got to make. You,
you mentioned earlier that the more modern concept or internet native franchise model.
My point is like the people that are entrepreneurial or ambitious in nature will want to find ways
to leverage the opportunity of having an aligned community to create things that generate. And
that's very different than people that are passively scrolling or, you know, want things served to
them. And I think you need to create a system that, that connects both of those. And the best
example of this to me is like atomic VC. Um, you're aware, right. Of how they work like a product
studio type model. Yeah. They're, they're venture studios. They, they take, they build the product
basically. Yeah. But they're more focused on like e-com even like versus a, you know, venture
model. But I think what it, what it looks like is, you know, you're, you're able to take
in different types of businesses or, um, you know, communities or concepts, content creators,
whatever it is, and create a pipeline that leads to that McDonald's level, uh, you know,
quality and output. But, uh, the system that makes it work economically is the fact that NFT
holders are, um, economically aligned, like they're, they're aligned incentive. And I think
you'll be surprised, man. And this is why I'm excited for you to potentially start a PFP project.
Cause I think you'll see it. I think you'll be so not potentially it's happening. We've
been working on it. Let's go. Let's go. We got to talk about that too. But, um, but no,
I think you'll, you'll be so shocked at how much people want to contribute, man. Like
and, and quality people. And this is my point is I actually think it's very doable. It just
hasn't been done yet. And I don't know, I think about this every day for the last two
years on, uh, on this. And I think it's, it's, it's a brain worm, dude. What's it? We'll
talk. I don't know. We should move, we should move on. I know I expect, I
want to hear it. I just wanted to say really quick, guys, I just want to say
really quick that, you know, I, Frank, I know you're taking it hard and stuff, but
it's like, basically, like, I just want to say that I've kind of been observing
and, you know, perceiving and following the, you know, the youths, you know, the
gods, you know, for a couple of years now. And I think if you just remove price from
the equation, all you've done is just totally experiment and take all the arrows for this
entire space. So I think that it's just like, regardless of like what the price does on a
month to month basis, especially in a bear market and potentially disappointing people,
it's just, it's like, ultimately, you know, the majority of time is, is in the future.
You know, it's like, what, are we just going to look at the last year, two years and three
years? Are we not going to take like a 10 year, 20 year review? So it's like putting a network
state on a whiteboard and then just, you know, cooking on a thread, you know, that's not
necessarily committing to becoming a network state company.
Yeah, but Warren, what does a state have or a country have?
A state, dude, there's some pretty tiny states, bro. And it's just like, they have diplomatic
recognition.
GDP. That's what I'm saying, dude. So, so when you actually have like, and I think a
Y Combinator metaphor is not, you know, an exaggeration given like the amount of unicorns
and whatnot that it's pumped out and just the entire YC mafia that exists, you know? And
I think that that model, you know, they have a whole startup school and then when they actually
take people and, you know, run them through the program, it's just, it really is a regenerative
model of capitalism and building businesses. And it's just like, it's the same thing with
art, you know, and design. And it's just like, do you think like a capitalist when most Gen
Z's think like socialist?
I don't give a shit about Gen Z's. It's just the target market might be small, bro. We're
talking about a hundred daily active users, right? So it's like, like my brother's a zoomer,
man. Like these guys are betting college football, bro. They're betting Texas state rice.
They can't even wrap their head around this stuff. So, I mean, it's like, you know, what's
going to get them in this? I think sports, I think, you know, artists, music, culture,
and there's, that's where the, you know, video games, you know, I think that's, what's going
to take place like over the next couple of years, there needs to be a general sentiment
rebound. You know, the Bitcoin, um, I think objectively it was like, you know, the maximalists
were a little too clever by half. And, you know, when we hit that Pico top 69, six, you
know, 69, four 20, and we haven't seen it since it's just like, how are we going to get back
up to that point? Because ultimately every other asset class in the crypto space rests
on top of Bitcoin from just a fundamental zero with principle, but you know what I'm saying?
So, I mean, just, yeah, looking forward, it's like, ultimately, regardless if we're focused
on ETH, Solana and whatnot, I think that fundamentally we have to be pro Bitcoin, even if we don't
own it. And, you know, and I think that, I think what I just want to say about like the
gods and just even breaking it down to just D, D E, how that comes off verbally and stuff,
you can put it in front of golf. You could, you know, it's just like the, the interoperability
of like the brand there is just like every single, you know, vertical, basically you
could hit with that. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's just about building, I think
ultimately, and, and not necessarily, you know, speculating, you know, yeah, focus for
sure. So I'll jump in. Exploration though, also matters to exploration and just tinkering.
So, I mean, it's that, you know, team, teamwork, I think ultimately too. And like, you know,
we're cooking in this space right now, Jonah, Frank, Leap is hosting this, this ecosystem
basically. And one thing that I did want to say before about like metaverse concepts and
how we perceive, you know, these environments is like a space is basically like 2D, two
dimensional. But when we get into a 3D environment, I think that's where a metaverse comes in handy
because now we could actually have, you know, information could be communicated with better
pathways and, and like nodes connecting and like a three dimensional network. So, I mean,
whoever wants to build that, like web spaces, you know, there's, that's being built right
now. It's in, you know, I'm, it's not too promising, but it's like a leap space is basically
like a three dimensional web space where it's just like these interactions of ideas take place,
you know, people cook, they ramble, I ramble, you know, we have a good time. Ultimately,
it's just about like, you know, that's what, that's all the essence of what I'm trying to
say.
Well, we're definitely having a good time and I want to reset the space. Thank you,
Frank, Warner and Jonah. I'm going to reset it before we throw it over to bags. Welcome
everybody. Hot take arena too. If you're enjoying anything about the conversation, click the pin
tweet at the top or the button in the bottom right hand corner and give it a like comment
or a retweet bags. Talk to us. What's up? Yo. So I think a couple of points, a couple
of good points were really made there. And one is like longevity, right? Like you can't
be thinking one to two years out. You got to be thinking five, 10 years out. Right. I
think that was maybe Warren that said that, is that right? My phone's fucking up a little
bit. Yeah. So you got to be thinking five, 10 years out, man. Like when I, when I built
my first business boys, I was fucking broke as fuck. I was 27. I, uh, had a kid on the
way. I had just gotten married. I worked for two fucking years, 14 hours a day, two years.
I made like 37,000 my first year, like 52,000 my second year. And everybody was like, yo,
fucking quit, man. You were like, you were making good money before that, like quit. And
I was like, nah, fuck that. And then I turned it into a eight figure business. But like, you
got to think longer term and you can't be swayed. And, and, and here's, and Frank, I'm
going to speak candidly, bro. I think, I think you're swayed a little bit by like holders
and like short term goals and like what people want immediately. And you can't do it. Like
that's part of like being a leader and, and, and a fucking, you know, grownup that's running
in a business is like, you can't be swayed by the short term shit. Like you can't be
like, oh, well, you know, the holders want this. So I'm going to do it. And the holders
want this. So I'm going to do it. You have to like have your game plan and fucking go ABCD
EFG and fucking complete it. Because when I listen to you on these spaces every single
time, this has been for a while now, I'm like, damn, he's got it. You know what I mean?
Like, like there's a few people, like I can tell when people got it and they don't got
it. This motherfucker's got it. But on the execution side, it's different.
Spotty. It's definitely spotty. Yeah.
You hear me? So the execution side, he's like, he gets a little flaky. You know what I mean?
He gets like, he gets flustered. Right. I get it, man. I get it. Cause I'll tell you this,
this is the hardest business I've ever fucking been in was running an NFT project.
The hardest out of all the shit I've done over the years, the hardest because you got so many
people in your ear. You got so many people tweeting you, fucking texting you and whatever you need
to do this. You need to do that. Yada, yada, yada. Right. So then you start to like, you start
to want to listen to it, but you just have to be like balls of steel and be like, you know
what? I'm not fucking listening to it. Like I'm going to stick with ABCD EFG that I already
had planned out. And if you do that, you've got a lot better chance of success. Even if,
even if it's a dip in price or it's a, it's a lull and nobody's really interested or whatever
it may be. Like if you'll stick to your fucking guns, you'll be a lot better in the long run.
I'll just say that. And I, and I've reached out to you, Frank, I've reached out to you and I've
been like, yo, like I'm happy to help. Like if you, if you, you know, if you got issues,
whatever, like I've said this, but like, that's the one thing about me is, and everybody knows
this, that at least that knows me is like, I stick to my fucking guns. I, you know, if
the fucking price drops 50%, you know what? I hate it guys, but it's part of the long-term
plan. And we're going to continue to build on that plan. We're going to, we're going to
execute on what we said we were going to do. So I'm just saying, like, I think that was a
really good point that Warren made earlier is like, you can't be thinking about like,
what's, what's the next three months, who gives a fuck? The next three months are fucking irrelevant,
dude. Like you can, you can grind those next three months, but those next three months need to be like
what you're building for the next 12 months. Right. And then the next six months need to be
building for, for the next 18 months. Like that's the way it's got to be. That's the way you
got to, that's how leaders are made. That's how leaders are born. You've got the, you've got it
in you. And, and I hate to, I'm not sucking Frank off, but like, you've got it in you, but you've got
to stick to your plan and continue doing what you're doing and you'll be fine. Like you can't,
you can't worry about the ebbs and flows, man. Honestly, I think it's LA that's killing you.
Honestly, honestly, that might, it might be the issue.
What does that mean? Do I ever leave my fucking house?
I know. So, so, um, I think, look, I think phase banks is a genius, but I call it, I call it like
phase ism. Like Frank is definitely not. No, but listen, listen, listen, I worked in e-sports. So
this, like, it literally happened like this where phase clan had a core identity. They lost focus
because they saw the potential for success and it destroyed them. And only now are they finally
getting back on track. But like, it really happened because they ended up in LA after being in New York.
You know, people in LA tell you a lot of shit, like, Oh, we're going to get you a Netflix deal
or, Oh, we brought me out here, man. I got to say this. Like, I, like Frank's locked in and like
that I've partied at the, like, I'm familiar with them.
I love how you said locked in and then said party.
Clearly, please. No, shout out to the, to phase guys.
You're telling me you're not going to any LA parties?
Dude, I don't, dude, he's, he's not.
All right. All right.
He's really, really, really.
He's really, I'm a nerd, dude. At the end of the day, I just happened to my parents
moved to fucking Los Angeles, you know, before they had me. I happen to grow up here, but
I just spent all my time in my room.
Maybe it's the oxygen. I know the oxygen, you know, it's not very clean there.
Oh, okay.
It's not LA. LA, I don't think LA is the issue. No, Frank, I think that ice is saying the same
thing that I'm thinking, dude, because it's just like, like, what are you like 24 now?
23? Like you're so young out here, bro.
Yeah, you're getting up there, man. You're an old man.
When you get 28, you start balding. Get ready.
Yeah, I was going to say, you're basically a geezer, Frank.
Okay, hold on, hold on. Is this like a Frank intervention? What the hell is going on?
I've been up since six o'clock in the morning, and I'm, like, I literally, I kid you not
when I say this, I had over 20 calls today. I'm fucking exhausted, and I'm, like, kind
of, like, fading in and out of the space, and I just keep...
All right, now it's a mid-intervention. Min, why do you live in LA?
Oh, my God.
A mid-intervention, like a...
Oh, dude, that's, yeah, that's good. That's, like, the Costco.
No, no, no, no. Well, leap, leap. Like, I've been here for, like, seven years. But, bro,
how about you? Like, how's it been moving from Virginia?
I mean, I... Do you want to know exactly who I am right now?
He's, like, the Frank Prince of Bel-Air.
I am in an empty apartment that does not have a one piece of furniture in besides an air
mattress that I bought from Target 20 minutes before this space started. No pillows, no
blankets, and I'm laying down in the middle of an empty room. The only thing I have is my
phone charger and some food from this Berea place that I got.
I feel like you're going to start a killer startup.
Dude, look, look.
That's what I'm hearing.
I hear...
Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on real quick. What'd you get, though, from the Berea place?
I don't even know what they're like. They're, like, queso barillas or something.
Fuck, yeah. With the dipping sauce?
That's the alpha.
That's the alpha.
Alpha.
I think it's a ghost kitchen. You can get it in a lot of places in L.A., but it's called
Berea Bitch, and it's... Honestly, it's fire. It hits every time.
Leap, bleap. But listen, dude, if... Wouldn't you say, if Jonah moved to L.A., he would be
multiplied? Everything he would be doing would be...
Yeah, including my taxes.
Sure, bro. But, okay.
An extra 10% of a lot more money would be...
That adds up, bro.
You know?
I think there's, like, there's something about L.A. I mean, it depends on who you know here.
I live near Miami. It's fine. We basically have L.A., but it's cleaner.
No, Miami's cool. There's a lot of crypto people in Miami, but I do like L.A., and if you've
gone to a lot of cities, this might be a hot take for some, but L.A. is S-tier.
Like, bro, like, if you want a beach, dude, the beaches are here. You want clubs, the
clubs are here. You want to hike? Some of the best hikes.
No, L.A. is beautiful. It's just expensive.
You want to go to the desert areas? You can do that. You can go north of L.A. and go
to, like, more rural areas.
I think there is, like, an underlying thing, though, just in terms of, like, how, like,
San Fran's kind of known as, like, the tech hub, and then New York finance hub. Miami's
kind of getting its own identity and stuff. Like, where do you guys think, like, the NFT
capital is right now? Bro, it's L.A. The internet. It's L.A.? Dude, the NFT capital
of the world is L.A. Like, I'm claiming... The NFT capital of the world is Twitter.
Okay. We're talking... Jodo, we're talking real life. We're talking... No, no, that's
fair. Because I figured, like, yeah, it's got to be. The Web3 capital of the world, right?
Is that or Singapore? Okay, yeah, let me rephrase. There's a huge world out there. I don't
want to claim the whole world. I would say in the United States... In the U.S.
Come to L.A., dude. You think the world revolves around you, doesn't it? No, no, no.
Man, now you're getting the idea. Just in the United States. I would say L.A. But also,
Miami has a huge crypto scene, too. But I think NFT more specifically... We were originally
built by... Bro, L.A. is definitely where the cabal is based. Let's be real. This is what
happens, bro. Everybody who's trying to make it is in L.A. And once you make it, you move
to Miami. That's actually so true.
Fuck Miami, too. Miami's a fucking shithole.
I was... I actually really like... Well, Miami's a shithole depending on where you live. And
let me make it clear. I don't live in Miami. I go there, like, a little... Like, I just
go there for, like, the night. And then I go to the nice place.
I think John lives in the world. Nobody... Like, that's the alpha. This is how I know people
are tourists. They're like, I want to live in Miami. I'm like, you sure about that?
What about... Jonah, what do you do at night, bro? What do you do in Miami at night?
I mean, whatever anyone else does. What do you mean?
11? I don't know, bro. Dude, I don't know.
Nah, Jonah, definitely. You go to a nice restaurant. You, you know, you... If you want to go to
clubs, I don't club. But, like, if you want to go to a club, you go to a club. There's...
No, what do you do, bro? I know that... That was my question.
And we're doing it right now. We're doing it right now.
Dude, literally, yeah. Like... Dude, I work in fucking NFTs.
People from California always do this.
This isn't even about Jonah, all right? Jonah's been firing on all cylinders tonight. This
is about Frank being in California.
Bro, like, Pekosko will forever be the best moment of this week, hands down. Nothing
can beat that.
Yeah, Pekosko.
Dude, Pekosko.
Thank God, Zico came up, man.
Fucking Marvel.
Um, yeah. Well, okay, so...
I don't really think it matters where you live, if I'm being honest with you. I like LA because...
Dude, if you live in Idaho, you're not minting NFTs.
Bro, who the fuck lives in Wisconsin?
We minted you guys in Idaho, man.
I don't know about that.
This is a fact.
I was about to say that, Frank.
No, no, because, like, that's the thing that Jonah said earlier about, like, where
do...
Where is the, um...
Where is the hub for NFTs?
And I agree with that.
I know that it's a very, um...
It's not a concrete answer, but it's the internet right now.
Like...
Oh, that is a fact.
But it's so obvious that it's the internet that it's almost like...
Bro, that's a stupid-ass answer.
No, no, no.
I get it.
Like, yeah.
It matters way more on the internet than it does in fucking...
I mean, technically, the hub is Surfshark or NordVPN, but...
Wait, which hub?
No, that's Robit.
Wait, can we go back to the Frank invention, bro?
That shit was funny.
Dude, I had to...
The problem is, like, the advice I'm giving Frank, he's not understanding that, like, if
he took the advice, it would mean that he, like, fights back and sticks to the opinion.
It's like...
Okay, well, look, I do want to say, too, yeah, he's not being the right, right?
It's just that there's, like, a few key people that I work with all the time in person in
L.A., but it would be harder for those guys to move out.
But, I mean, I'm not opposed to...
No, L.A.'s nice.
L.A.'s nice.
No, that's base, bro.
That's base.
It's just, yeah, L.A.'s not the problem.
I think, yeah, like...
I'm the problem.
You're not the problem at all, dude.
I think that the thing is, like, ultimately, scaling, you know, scaling...
You don't got the answers, Frank.
...like, the leadership level.
Yeah, dude, I mean, scaling at the leadership level is, you know, building systems is, like,
it's been a shit show, like, for most projects the past couple years, so...
I'll tell you, one hour with Frank and I'd have him sit.
All right, that sounds...
Let's go.
The best I can do is five minutes.
Okay.
Hey, yo, I do got to say, dude, I think there's a lot of advice being thrown around.
Man, go in.
I think a lot of it...
A lot of it is great advice, but it's also way fucking harder, like...
Like, if it was as easy as just, like, having the advice and then implementing it...
Oh, yeah, and no one's ever been as successful as Frank.
That's not...
Can I get a whack at Frank?
Can I get a whack at Frank?
That's not even what it's about.
I mean, it's just like, dude, it's fucking harder...
Yeah, what do you mean by that?
I'm just...
No, but it's like, everyone...
I gotta be honest.
Like, everyone's like, oh...
Someone said some shit to me.
They're like, well, you always complain about games, so go make one.
I hired someone on Fiverr for, like, 450 bucks, and I made a Pixelmon game in, like, three days.
It's honestly...
I think a lot of the stuff that people call...
Dude, a lot of people call this shit hard, because...
And I know this trick, because they do it in gaming, too.
We're like, oh, we can't fix that.
It would kill the whole game.
They're fucking lying.
Straight up.
It's not as...
Like, there are parts that are very hard.
Okay, now, Jonah, I really think you need to start a project, because I feel like you're
going to change that...
No, no, no.
Like, the hardest part, the hardest part, the hardest part...
You'll be like, guys, it's kind of difficult.
First off, I do have a project, and I've been dealing with it for a year.
Oh, BFB, BFB, BFB.
With people, with people.
There's people...
What do you think?
With people, it's crazy.
With people in it.
What do you...
Dude, what the fuck?
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
Okay, look.
I can't stand by...
First, we're slandering LA.
Now, we're slandering everything.
Bro, like, there's, like, definitely levels to this shit, and, like, I...
I think it's just, like, way...
It's just different when you have fucking 5,000 people that all have...
That part is the hard part.
Like, and, yes.
Managing...
Dude, managing gambling addicts is insane.
I know rehab facilities in Delray that have, like, 20 fucking addicts, and they shut down
in, like, a minute.
So that part is hard.
I'm talking about, like, the implementation of, like, oh, how to do a Discord server, or,
like, oh, here's a game, like, how to do partnerships, or, like...
Like, those things aren't as hard as people say.
It's the part where you're managing gambling addicts that's really hard.
Like, that is hard.
It's a combination of all of it.
Like, I can even, like...
You can just break it down to small things.
Like, what they did in New York...
And this is not to fucking glaze Frank.
But, like, what they did in D New York was a logistical fucking...
Yeah, that was awesome.
That was a great job.
Like, I go to some of their events, and I'm like, who the fuck is putting this shit together?
Like, is it Aaron?
Like, is it Frank?
Like, who is actually, like, putting these things together?
Because this is not easy.
Definitely not Aaron.
It is Aaron.
Aaron's doing a lot.
Aaron's got to, like, go even now, just for, like, internal look for the community,
because a lot of people know Aaron.
He's been such an MVP in this new direction that we're taking, and, like...
Not new direction, but, you know, this restructure internally of, like,
let's just solve all of our fucking problems.
He's been, like, really stepping up.
So, yeah, mad props to Aaron, even internally, guys.
He's been crushing it recently.
Dude, and he's been consistent in the fucking...
Yeah, DIYC was so sick.
We talked about it this year.
I think we're just going to do hotels.
I guess this is an announcement right now, but, like, I think our game plan is, like,
yo, we're just going to, like, bulk buy these hotels, and then, you know,
for people that want to stay with other people in Web3,
whether you hold a DGOT or not, or you or not,
it's just going to be, like, a business for us,
because we'll charge a small markup,
and in return we'll get you, like, sick merch that comes with your hotel.
And I feel like everyone was super happy with that,
because not only are you getting the merch and, like, getting the same nice hotel,
yeah, you're just, like, with all the other people you want to be with anyway,
so look out for the hotels.
Yeah, I will say that the hotels, I expect the fucking DMYC was the most fire.
Hold on, Icebags, is it because of the margins?
Are you going to say the margins are shit?
I want to know why you're thumbs downing.
Yeah, absolute shit.
Too much mindshare on it.
I beg to disagree there.
Margins are pretty fire if you, like, in Web3, with a small niche audience, it's great.
Like, it's awesome.
Yeah, I've been in the Airbnb business for, like, 18 years.
Well, Airbnb is, yeah, that's Airbnb, but, like...
Well, that's why he's thumbs down.
No, because we bulk buy these hotel rooms, and, you know, we can even pre-sale them,
and then, like, for Public Hotel, which is one of the nicest hotels in New York,
I mean, we made a profit on that event.
It was pretty sick, like, I'm not going to lie,
because I think the people, again, they're staying multiple nights,
you're booking in a significant, like, block, you do it well ahead of time.
We got, I don't want to say the number right now,
but, like, I'll tell you guys when we chat, but it was fire.
I mean, yeah, it could work.
I also want to ask the question here for anybody on stage.
What do you think the value of...
How do I even put this?
I mean, dude, it was, like, almost euphoric on the timeline
for, like, two, three weeks straight.
The only thing people were talking about after D New York was D Gods.
It was kind of crazy, honestly,
how much the conversation proliferated outside of the event itself.
Dude, experience is everything.
It was, like, it's, like, every aspect of business.
Like, you have to understand that people my age, in my 20s,
we already, like, many people already accept the fact
that they'll never own anything.
And not that they like it, but they just accept that fact
because they feel like it's impossible.
So the thing that they go for is in a shared economy is
who has the better experience?
Like, who's got an experience?
Like, dude, imagine you're, like, some dude on the internet,
you meet with Frank, you buy his PFP,
and this is just what it is, like, bro talk, right?
You meet some girl in New York, you end up sleeping with her,
who knows what happens, but you go,
if I hadn't gone there and done Frank's thing,
I wouldn't have met that girl.
Bro, you just gave, like, an impossible scenario to...
Okay, sure, whatever.
I'm just saying that...
Nearly impossible, but it's happened.
I'm just saying that you never know, it can happen,
but, like, it sounds stupid,
but that's an experience people will think about
for, like, the next 10 years,
and that is a very valuable customer
because they're like, Frank Degott's got me laid.
Okay, I will spend $1,000 on his fucking duffel bag merch.
All right, hold on, hold on.
Sex as a utility is just called, like,
I think it's just called, like, prostitution.
I was about to say.
But yeah, what is this project extra?
I definitely met, like, my closest friend in Web3
at the fucking D Hotel, so that's...
You know, shout-out fucking Pasta,
shout-out fucking Woven, bro.
Like, both of them I met at DNYC in the hotel.
It was a fucking movie.
Gotta give shouts out to that.
Kind of sad you're not doing a treasure hunt again, though.
Like, what's up with that?
Like, Frank, I think people would pay
for an ayahuasca, like, hike.
Okay, all right, now we're just getting ridiculous.
Now we're talking.
This is ridiculous.
Oh, I mean, no, that's ridiculous.
As we were saying, why not go off the grid for a little bit?
I'd probably see people would pay a fat premium for that.
Yeah, let's get a bunch of NFT guys in a room
and fucking give them ayahuasca, bro.
I think that would be a fucking movie.
And then let's stream it on fucking Kick.
Or on Twitter.
Bro, that's prostitution.
That's straight up.
No, like, just...
No, I feel you, Jonah.
And, like, even for me, dude,
after college,
because I only had two years in college,
and after that, I'm just like, man,
if I'm only meeting people through work,
like, through whatever I'm working on,
to be honest,
even my closest friends, like,
we would just be talking about work.
Like, we'd just be working on shit all the time.
And so I do think there's a pretty significant gap
where it's kind of challenging.
Like, where do you go fucking meet people
the older that you get?
And for me, I mean, the sex part is interesting,
but I don't mind the rest of the crap.
I'm just making an example of...
No, I get it.
I totally get it.
I don't mind the example of a boy,
like, the boys hanging out
or playing basketball or whatever it is,
because, I don't know, man,
like, that's a weird change.
Dad's changed that for, like, 30 years.
Like, that's what I'm saying.
Like, if you can turn that into a business
that isn't cringe,
because this is the part,
like, it can become cringe very quickly.
So if you can make it not cringe,
and it's an...
Like, experiences that people...
There's a reason why, like,
the travel business
is such a fucking massive business
is because people...
You live maybe 100 years if you're lucky.
You know, everyone wants...
I have a buddy who took acid,
and I said,
why did you take acid?
He said,
I want to do it before I die,
and I just want to say that I did it.
Like, people are willing to do extreme shit
just to say they did it.
So if you...
Yeah, but keep that shit outside the convo.
Keep that shit...
Yeah, that's in the back channels, man.
That's a hidden utility, bro.
No, no, I'm not saying that.
Let me point something out real quick.
Let me point something out real quick.
Like, I don't know how many people
were in the room
while Jonah and Frank
were having a conversation,
but...
And I don't know where it's going to lead to,
but, like, that was thanks to Leap, you know?
And Leap basically putting these faces on
and allowing these conversations to happen.
That's the digital equivalent, I think,
of what Frank might have
in terms of, like, a vision for...
You know, because, like, yeah,
you get people together in a room
and they can spend time with each other
face-to-face.
A face-to-face interaction
is worth more than any, you know,
a daily interaction
that you have with people online.
When you meet people face-to-face
and you can shake their hand
and give them a hug,
like, that means more than anything.
And that's not going to change.
That's the part about this
that I think doesn't get discussed enough
because, you know,
as much as this fucking...
As much as we all love
every aspect of this technology
and everything,
it's like the human nature side of it
is not going to change.
And, like, the human connection part,
I think if you can find a way
to, you know,
get people to connect with each other,
then, yeah, that's...
Like, to me,
that's the most important thing.
Yo, Frank,
can I give you some feedback?
Please.
Yeah.
Dude, all this doesn't fucking matter, bro.
Just...
The one thing I've noticed, like,
because I've seen you, like,
progress,
and you're only 24, dude.
Throughout this whole shit,
you always have to love yourself
and be kind to yourself
no matter what.
And I know you're a fucking hustler, dude.
You're, like, a demon.
And, like,
part of that
is, like,
a slight depression of, like,
you'll never be able to achieve
your expectations or whatever.
But you're the most successful
when you're in flow state, Frank,
when you're happy
and just joyful.
And that starts with, like,
your self-love.
So no matter what,
business this,
business that,
global thing,
and this,
experience that,
just remember to love yourself, dude.
Like,
ROI-wise,
that is the best...
That's the best investment
you can do.
I think your first act
of self-love
is to buy an eight sleep
because you always look tired.
Do you have a promo?
This is the weirdest
Frank intervention
that's...
Dude, that was a...
Sleep, you're next, bro.
That was such a buzzkill
for a second, dude.
I...
No, I'm interested.
I'm interested.
Eight sleep.
All right, all right.
No, apparently...
That's that crazy reason.
Fucking swear by it.
Hey, I got it.
Eight sleep.
Yep, yep.
I feel like they should just give that to you
when you get into Y-com.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
We need to...
Get this...
You're right, Leap.
We do need to start an intervention
if you use the source.
Why do you let that happen?
This is Leap.
Now it's Leap's turn, dude.
Oh, God.
Anyone want to go first?
I...
Look.
People need to...
Okay.
This air match.
Can you hear this air match
or something?
It's like creaking.
I should have got the $30 one
instead of the $20 one.
I knew there was a reason
this was cheaper.
Anyway.
Okay.
Look, we got to go to the hands.
We got to get this back on track.
My brewery is...
My...
Is getting cold.
We'll go to Chef here.
Chef, what's up?
Oh, shit.
I kind of forgot.
Oh, yeah.
It's kind of off topic at this point,
but when we were talking about
the franchisability of NFT brands
and D in particular,
I don't know, man.
That gets me super fucking excited
that that's even being thought about
because if you look at Nike
and the things that can come out of something
like Nike...
Nike's huge, right?
But Jordan is fucking huge, too.
You know what I mean?
And Jordan came from Nike.
So the things that can come out of it
like Sunny
and the fucking basketball tournaments
and fucking...
Talked about D-Golf, too.
These types of things
that can come out from
outside of it
and the different branches
that come out
from that project
is the possibilities are endless.
That's pretty bricked up to me.
When you're thinking about
what is this NFT going to do for me?
What's the future
of these type of projects?
Like, that's hitting the nail
on the head in my opinion.
Bro, bro.
You literally use bricked up
as like a way to describe your...
I've never heard that before.
Also, I will say,
speaking of bricked up,
Sunny and D-Athletics,
definitely a fucking sleeper.
Like, that is going to be,
in my opinion,
one of the most successful aspects
of the entire fucking thing.
Bro, how is that
speaking of bricked up, though?
Well, there are bricked up, bro.
Speaking of bricked up in general,
and shout out to bricked up.
Yeah, sports are just
the coolest thing
in the fucking planet, man.
I never get over it.
It's like, yeah,
people that get sports,
like, it's just,
you meet them
and you're just like talking
no matter what.
And that's like,
as an adult,
we were talking about it earlier,
like, how do you make friends?
Dude, like,
honestly, sports is a huge,
is a huge one.
Like, and again,
not everyone needs
to be into sports,
but that's what,
that's what I like
about the segments.
I love the Nike example
you use because,
you know,
it's like,
you have Nike Golf
and Nike SB,
which are both
very different sub-brands.
But,
yeah,
as we try to literalize
and make the difference
between the D-Gods
and the Utes branding,
you know,
in the coming weeks,
like,
the focus for D-Gods
is definitely more
in this,
like,
sports,
I mean,
we already own
the basketball team,
but yeah,
just like sports,
athletic vibe,
and Utes is gonna be
different than that.
So, I mean,
yeah,
I don't know.
Again,
like,
there's gonna be
other things as well,
but that's a huge focus
to me.
Huge opportunity.
Pickleball team,
next.
What they,
I mean,
what,
Sonny,
what you and Easy
and Threat Guy did
with the basketball game,
Threat Guy and I
were talking about
this the other day,
I'm not even kidding,
that was my favorite
event of Art Basel.
Like,
I loved the houses,
D-houses,
the Rug Radio house,
whatever,
but there was something cool,
and like,
Threat Guy's one of my
best friends.
I mean,
we've just been through
a lot together
at this point,
and getting to see him,
as well as like,
you know,
a lot of our other friends,
but getting to see them
in their element,
being competitive,
like,
really like doing something,
and I don't know,
dude,
there was just something
about it that was,
I'll use a Frank word here,
electric,
and it's just a way
that you get to see
these people that you
interact with every day
online,
you don't get to see them
in that way,
and it just like,
makes you remember
that these people are alive,
like,
these are humans,
and I know that sounds cringe,
but dude,
I don't know,
it's easy to forget.
Bro,
sports bring out,
like,
passion in people,
like,
people will fucking die
for their sports teams,
and die over a game,
like,
whether a foul happened or not,
like,
it just brings something
out of people
that's like,
different than a lot
of other things.
And you know,
we talked about it,
the missing piece there,
that's gonna make it
a lot bigger,
is better content.
You know,
Pasta's in the audience
right now,
but I just messaged him,
and I was like,
dude,
we really need to focus
on this,
on the video side,
you know,
I watch a lot of YouTube,
and there's like,
this huge indie,
like,
YouTube basketball scene,
where these guys are like,
becoming bonafide superstars,
why?
Because if you're into basketball,
like,
you just love watching
motherfuckers play basketball,
like,
it's just,
no matter what scenario,
where it is,
like,
how it's going down,
if it's competitive,
it's fun,
and I think that applies,
honestly,
to most sports.
And so,
again,
like,
you know,
I think it's,
we're in discovery process as well,
but,
you know,
it's just so exciting to me,
like,
I don't know,
the basketball team,
the fact that we own one too,
it's like,
I don't know,
it's not for everybody,
but the way that you make it
for everyone in the community
is by making compelling content
around it,
so that people can root
for a great story,
or root for an interesting thing
to watch,
and I think that has legs,
again,
my point is,
the audience for basketball
is bigger than NFTs,
the audience for golf
is bigger than NFTs,
the audience for poker
is bigger than NFTs,
and so,
in a weird way,
like,
there's a lot of different takes
on how you can go mainstream,
but my take is,
like,
it's not about going mainstream,
but it's about finding
the most passionate people
out there,
because that's what's going
to really drive the
accelerated growth
for a community,
and what I'm describing now
is 100%,
like,
that's our game plan,
you know,
and I think we've been bad
at communicating this
in content recently,
but that's why it's a focus
to me,
but it's crystal clear,
like,
yeah,
I just think this could be
really fun
across the board,
and attract very different
audiences than we have
right now.
you'll probably love this,
Frank,
I used to play ball
with the professor,
like,
all the time.
Yeah.
No way!
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Yeah,
you're like 50,
my bro,
that's crazy.
You're like getting your
ankles broken
every fucking day then,
that's crazy.
He was nasty,
yeah,
he was nasty,
he was definitely
the best on the court,
like basically every time,
but we,
you know,
I was on his team
most of the time,
so it didn't matter to me.
Are you in the videos?
he wasn't,
like,
he wasn't even in the
and one when we played,
like,
that was like high school days,
so he hadn't even,
like,
gone on any and one tours
or anything at that point.
That's the coolest shit
I've heard in so long.
That's the other thing too,
athletes are the coolest people
on the fucking planet.
I mean,
Icebags,
you gotta talk about
your involvement with the UFC,
I mean,
I look at that
and I think that's
one of the coolest fucking things
out there,
yeah,
like these UFC guys
are fucking insane,
like,
yeah,
athletes are the coolest.
Yeah,
go ahead,
start,
like,
like Perry's,
like rocking the Camp Pie Panda,
like,
how the hell did that even start?
I mean,
it started with
John Jones originally,
so that's how he got started,
but a couple of advisors
of my project
own first round management,
so they own,
they're like the second biggest
sports management people
on the planet
when it comes to combat sports,
but I mean,
like,
Mike Perry and I
have become really good friends,
we've got a podcast together,
you know,
we travel together,
like,
dude's a fucking maniac,
he's a killer,
fucking king of violence,
you know,
we just,
we just got done filming
right before this,
we got done filming with
Rampage Jackson,
like,
it's fucking sick,
man.
Rampage is a legend,
bro.
Fucking legend,
like,
absolute legend.
Those Silva
Rampage fights
were just,
like,
peak UFC.
Like,
crazy,
and we were talking about,
like,
fucking Japanese
bathhouses,
like,
it's fucking crazy,
bro.
Question,
Nagano or
Don Jones,
who wins?
John,
easy.
Talk me through that,
walk it,
walk it through.
All right,
like,
like,
UFC rules,
like,
MMA rules?
Mm-hmm,
mm-hmm.
yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
John fucking kills him.
John,
probably takes him down in the first,
and probably chokes his ass out,
like,
like,
like he did Gann.
Like,
John,
you can't handle that shit.
Interesting.
I actually,
I actually got choked out by John Jones once.
Hold on,
what?
Yeah,
so there's,
like,
the Arnold,
is in Columbus,
Ohio every year.
It's like the,
the powerlifting,
conference.
So I,
I was going to Ohio State at the time,
so I just went down,
and John Bones Jones was there,
and,
you know,
there's like a picture gallery or whatever,
and I was just like,
is there any way,
you can put me in a chokehold,
did it for the gram,
you know?
That's,
in the archives,
it's,
goddammit.
But yeah,
I got choked up by John's Bones Jones.
Great thing.
Yeah,
it's fucking great.
John's a goat.
Like,
legit.
John's a fucking goat.
But I mean,
you know,
you know what's been fun is like,
because,
because I think,
I think Frank hit it on the head earlier.
He's like,
you know,
people don't understand,
like,
how we're reaching out to other people,
right?
Like,
whether it's through golf or fucking ping pong,
it really doesn't matter.
Like,
but what we chose was MMA,
and we've had a huge fucking success there.
Like,
our brand is known now in,
you know,
the MMA circle,
the UFC circle.
Everybody knows it.
we've got a very successful podcast out of it,
where we got like three more shows launching in Q1.
but it's been a lot of fucking fun,
man.
And so I get to hang out with all the fucking fighters and I don't know,
man.
It's just,
look,
we struck lightning,
you know,
and it's been a,
it's been a good ride and,
I don't plan on fucking stopping.
Bro,
people don't realize ping pong gets real.
Like once you get to a certain talent point,
it's like,
ping pong absolutely does get real.
And I think on that note,
it is time to end the space.
Look,
I love you guys so much.
Thank you so much.
It's 12.
3 a.m.
Here.
I woke up at 6 a.m.
Today.
I'm,
I'm fucking exhausted.
I got to wake up early tomorrow too.
So I'm going to go to bed.
One last question.
What are you going to do with the air mattress?
Are you going to leave it behind?
Are you going to take it with you?
Dude,
what do you mean?
This is my only possession.
I've been living out of one tiny suitcase for the past,
basically five months.
Like I'm running the cabal here.
I don't even have fucking more than three sweaters.
but look on that note,
I love you guys so much.
Please,
please,
please take care of yourselves.
I'll be back tomorrow night,
same time,
same place to have these conversations as we always do.
If you have any final questions,
comments,
or concerns,
you can click that button in the bottom right hand corner.
Or the pin tweet.
well now the pin tweet is Warren getting choked out by John.
But the pin tweet before that,
and drop a like comment or retweet.
It is the best way to support the space.
Appreciate everybody that does engage in that.
And,
yeah,
thank you so much for a banger space.
You guys make it happen every single night.
We hit 50 K followers last night and we're already at 50.4.
Like the growth has been crazy and,
I could not be more thankful to you guys.
Seriously.
Thank you for making this year unbelievable.
So on that note,
I will see you soon.
you,
you,
you.
I remember
before the call,
yeah,
you better hide.
like the word,
yeah,
the word,
yeah,
the word,
yeah,
yeah.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
