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How to Earn Sustainable BTC Yield with GOAT Network - Yield Talks
Recorded: March 21, 2025 Duration: 0:57:40Space Recording
Short Summary
The Goat Network has launched a groundbreaking Bitcoin yield chain, aiming to provide sustainable earning opportunities for Bitcoin and Dogecoin holders. With a focus on decentralization and innovative yield mechanisms, the network is set to redefine how users engage with their crypto assets while exploring partnerships with governments for broader adoption.
Full Transcription
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each other and, oh, actually, forgive me, I need to re-add our guest, Red.
Red, you should see an invite now. And Nomadic, yours should work here now as well.
Yep, there we go. Nomadic, I can hear you loud and clear. And then we'll give Goat
just a minute here. Thank you. Red, are you able to unmute? I saw you just joined.
No, I was here for, do you hear me now?
Yes, yes, you sound great. All right, there we go. Hey, great was here for do you hear me now? Yes. Yes, you sound great. All right,
there we go. Hey, great. Great to have you. I'll go ahead and kick us off then. So hi,
everyone. Thanks for joining us. This is Yield Talks. I'm DeFi Dad here with Nomadic from
the Edge podcast. Every Friday, we host a live space to review new and interesting DeFi.
In spotlight, what we believe is an opportunity more of you should
know about on chain. So today we're discussing how to earn a sustainable yield in Bitcoin
with a newly launched Bitcoin yield chain called Goat Network. We have the Goat Network
economics lead, Dr. Red One Elkemi. And Red, if that's okay, you let us know if you prefer.
We call you anything else. But Red, thanks for joining us.
How are you doing?
Thank you for having me.
I'm doing great and excited to be here,
excited to talk about what we're doing
and hope it had value to people yourself.
Yeah, so you just launched,
and so I'd love to get right into the origin story
of Goat Network.
I think some of us would also like refer to this as a roll-up.
I like to just plainly describe it as a Bitcoin yield chain.
Love to just break down, where's the focus in terms
of building this Bitcoin yield chain and so forth?
And then also, too, I believe there's
some tie here to the Metis team.
Would love to learn more about that as well.
Yeah, let me unpack that. There is two things here.
There's the Bitcoin and Doge and there is the link, not just Bitcoin,
but I will get into a little bit of details on this one.
Okay, I think our founder is, this is the link to Metis.
Let me start from history and Metis is history and present. Metis is its own project, its own network, its own things
that are still running on Ethereum.
Our founder is one of the founders of Metis.
And as you know, founders is one of the titles that
doesn't get away even if you start working on something else.
You still be called the founder of something in the past.
Metis Foundation have kickstarted also part
of this project in the pre-seed round
to give some money to this project to start.
It means Mites has been a project in the past
that is still running right now
that has been successful on Ethereum platform.
I think we're proud of what we have achieved there.
And we leverage in a lot of knowledge of ecosystem, a lot of mistakes that we have made in that space and we're actually learning it in the Goat network.
What is Goat? Because you're asking me to talk about Goat, that's the connection.
It's part of the team, comes from there. Goat is a standalone project not related to Metis except
from the start and the pre-seed route. Goat is a solution to a problem, in my view.
First, I think the best way to describe it
is describing the problem we're trying to solve.
And the problem we're trying to solve is pretty simple.
And I'm going to try to make it as non-technical.
Instead of go and roll up way, which I can get to,
I'm going to go extremely simple.
Simple is what?
I'm a user. I want to make some money out of BTC that I have and I'm gonna get to dodge to and I'm gonna say look
There's this there is this amazing cryptos that have been there for a while that have been proven to be good
Why they're good because they have a boom and bust that they stay there and and there's a lot of change of
Wave into the perception of what they are and if I ask anybody today what you really do with your BTC
Well, I'm expecting it to be 1 million and I'm just gonna hold it there. That could be okay
You can still hold it if you expect in one year to be a million
There is no reason for you to earn 20% or 50% because you're thinking it's gonna make 10x or 50x and that's one segment
Of the market, but that's not all the
market. As you know many many many other markets are retail, small holder of BTCs, many people are
coming to it from the traditional finance side as we notice these days and those are used to the
idea that I don't want to have a passive asset, I want to make some money when I have an asset.
And the codes come up a year and a half ago, a year and three months ago almost.
And then we started working on this idea, look, we need a place to solve this problem.
We need a place to make yield and yield not in whatever token it is,
we need to yield in something concrete, which is BTC.
Means we start from the reverse.
We want the user, if they come to us, to feel secure.
That's where the sustainability is going to come from, sustainable yield. We want them to be secure.
And we want them to feel you're going to make some money that is not just short run airdrop
and you disappear.
And there is a boom and bust of those airdrop and then, oh, it all go to zero and you disappear.
Is there an economic model out there that can guarantee that you're going to make returns
or yield or IPO or whatever you call it?
I actually haven't been, you get paid for providing
that BTC or that Dogecoin to our network because you provide value to us.
And what type of value are provided, for example, if you come into secure our
network, if you come into use our network, you're entitled to share part of the
benefit of the network. It means it's a risk sharing, sorry, it's a profit sharing, because as long as you're
accepting to come to our network to provide that proof of stake, if you provide a proof
of stake to our network, you're actually sharing one of the benefits of the network, which
is the transactions that get built up in the network.
It means go solve one problem.
Today, if you have BTC, I'll give you right away.
I'm sorry, by the way, you can cut me anytime you want.
No, keep going.
No, no, no, this is great, thank you.
I didn't introduce this to myself.
I'm a professor and as you guys know,
professors like to talk too much sometimes
and it's good for some people to jump in and stuff.
There's a lot of ground to cover on this topic.
No, no, please.
Yeah, no, it's really engaging.
I think it's important if you take a user today and I say,
OK, BTC, I'm going to go somewhere.
I'm going to get some wrapped BTC.
Do I go to Uniswap?
If I go to Uniswap, I have an impairment loss,
and the maximum I can make is too little.
What else am I going to do with my BTC?
Impairment loss there is too risky or you know what? I'm gonna make very little like
30 40 basis point if you go somewhere else, it means it's neither material return
It's extremely risky return if you're trying to provide liquidity from impairment loss
It means there is a problem and doge even worse like if BTC have a problem because you already have expectations
You may actually give a view. You're going to say, look, I don't even need to make yields because I'm
expecting a million. Doge, I don't think people are expecting a million in Doge because it's
not the idea of digital gold. It means actually it's possibility for them to make yield. It's
something that has been stable for a long time. And I think it's here to stay. This
is what Goals comes in and say, we need to build it.
And we build simply an ecosystem that is two parts.
There's a part of infrastructure, which I may get into,
I may not get into, it depends on the questions you ask,
which is actually one of the strengths of Goat,
is basically developing an infrastructure that is solid.
And we actually proud ourselves
by having some solid background
there and some benchmarks that I can talk about in terms
of the ZK performance, that are one of the two best
in the world, which is the zero-knowledge proof rather
than using acronym.
And we have a team that developed it
that is public benchmarks on these things.
We proud ourselves for launching the first BitVM.
I'm sorry if you use an acronym rather than spending
a lot of time on them.
It means generally we have a solid infrastructure.
But the focus of today since the title was Yield
is to say the problem we're trying to solve.
When you go to a bank as a user, you
don't ask them do you have a good infrastructure.
You just want to ask them, you kind of trust that, let's say.
And you're going to say, are you going
to give me enough return?
And if this talk is about Yield, I will focus mainly on the part that our goat is solving the
problem of yield for these people. If you have Bitcoin or you have Doge, goat is a place that
you're going to make sizable return, number one. Number two, this return is going to be denominated
in BTC. It means you're making a percentage in BTC over the long run. Number three, this return is going to be denominated in BTC. It means you're making a percentage in BTC
over the long run.
Number three is sustainable because it's
sustainable security and sustainable revenue.
And we will get more into these details
because there are many ways to make return with those.
But generally, because your question was more on the,
how do we start it?
What problem we're trying to solve?
I think I covered that. We're trying to solve. I think I covered that.
We're trying to solve the sustainable yield problem or call it the real yield problem for
these two coins right now. And we're trying to do it with the most economic sound way that guarantees
some kind of sustainability because what we notice in the sphere out there, and I think that's
something I can speak about for hours, maybe another time is,
there is always very good run because of the out-drop
campaign, because of the let's hype it up
and let's get some momentum rolling,
but the idea of sustainability is missing.
If you don't build your network to get sustainability.
And one of the unique things of Goat,
which you don't find anywhere else,
if you find a table of all what
claims to be scalable, no one is claiming
to run decentralized sequencers.
How to explain?
Basically, this for a user that basically don't know much
about technicalities.
The idea is our framework is this.
You, John, let's say whatever name it is,
come into our network, you have a choice where to stick.
It's not like come into one centralized entity
that I'm gonna decide how much I'm gonna give you.
Imagine with me right now, you have like three, four, five
sequencers, hundreds, just think of a theorem in a sense,
similar to that idea of sure is decentralization.
You're coming and
thinking where should they stick? And then you have views, well this sequencer I've used
to give 10%, okay I'm going to go there. Another sequencer is given two, I'm not going there.
As you realize there is competition and when we say there is competition across sequencers,
we say about there is a lot of, there is an optimal sharing. The more sequencer you have,
the more competition they have for how much sequencer you have, the more competition
they have for how much they attract stakers.
And the more they attract stakers,
the more sustainable your lead is going to be.
It means there is a lot of things
that only could be built in a decentralized sequencers.
In a nutshell, Goat is a solution to the problem
that exists today.
It tried to make it in a sustainable way.
It tried to generate sustainable yield for Bitcoiners
and Doge that they are not having today.
And it's not in the sphere.
I don't see much out there that are actually building it
on this decentralization.
I will stop here.
Yeah, Red, I think you're kind of calling out
a lot of the uniqueness of Goat.
And I think maybe even another simple example,
maybe many people listening to this have interacted with Base.
Right now, if you're interacting with Base, a user isn't really gaining
on the upside of Base's revenue.
Like Base's sequencer revenue isn't going back to the users in any way of right now
so with go you're essentially
introducing an ecosystem and a mechanism where
users of goat network are
partaking in the upside goat network where that sequencer revenue is coming back in the form of
a sustainable yield is that Is that kind of correct?
Exactly. What actually you said is even one step even further than that.
Not only if you have a central entity, they can decide whatever they want, how much they give you,
which you just talked about. If you have decentralization, even one step further,
you can decide to be a sequencer. If you have BTCs and Doge and you don't think they're giving you and sharing
with you with the upside and you realize there's a lot of
return that has not been distributed, our goal is basically to make everybody
possible to become yourself a sequencer. Call this a threat. It's almost like if
in the traditional finance companies behave well because there is a threat of
takeover. Because there is a threat of takeover by others,
they are in discipline.
There is a discipline mechanism that allows now the sequences
to share on the upside, not like what you just described
when you have a central entity.
It means that's one of the economic foundations that
is built on decentralization.
It's actually the genesis of all this blockchain.
The reason I'm excited about it is because decentralization
adds value.
And we just went the opposite way.
We went to centralization, and people say, well, it's central
maybe because I don't spend so much fees on many others.
But that's one equilibrium.
The equilibrium you have at Goat is an equilibrium
that decentralization adds value because it incentivizes
the other people are given you more yield.
And you just mentioned the opposite story if you're centralized.
Correct. You're spot on.
Hey, Red, why don't we talk just more pragmatically about like how someone can get involved in Go.
So one of the things I recently was trying to highlight, given that the alpha main net, I think
just went live, is just depositing one of three different assets and then being able to start to
basically stake a claim for the sequencer fees, mining fees, and then also lots of different forms
of points. So can you start to just walk us through how that works?
What are the assets that you can deposit?
And basically, what are the estimated yields and points
and so forth?
I'll go more pragmatic on this one.
Today, you have one Bitcoin, and you have two ways, or one
Doge, you have two ways to come into us, either from mainnet,
either if you basically have a Bitcoin Binance wrapped
version, you can also come from there from StakeStone.
It means you have, let's think about it.
If you're a Doge holder, if you're a Bitcoin holder,
or you already hold them in Binance
as a different type of form, there is a path.
You called it, there are three different paths to come to us,
either from the L1, from the main net side,
if you have Doge or Bitcoin, or from another source, which
is you're already in a certain exchange.
And then basically, we use Steakstone,
and you can come to us from Steakstone.
These are three different.
Now, you come to us meaning what?
You come to us to earn yield, as you mentioned.
Now, we talked about Sposa.
Actually, I'm just going to take one guy out of these three and I'm gonna say suppose I have one
Bitcoin I want to move it to go from it okay you move I'm gonna create one one
go to BTC for you if I get rid of go to BTC for you you're gonna decide which
sequencer you stake in as of today because it's an alpha mainnet let's say
this is Artemis is running one it's a liquid staking pool and you're gonna deposit
your Bitcoin and Artemis, okay? But the way we're thinking about it is that the
way we are building it and it's already is that you have many choices. You're
gonna be sequencer one, gonna be sequencer two, gonna be sequencer three,
you decided where to stay. If you stake there, what are you going to earn?
Whatever there is a transaction that is going to be calc,
okay, let's simplify for the audience.
Suppose you only have, let's say, three sequencers.
And then if you have three sequencers
and you stake with Artemis today,
and today, for example, we have a campaign,
you get more yield, but let's talk generic.
First and then pragmatic in the second after.
If you have three, then you're gonna decide
I'm gonna stake with Artemis.
If I stake with Artemis because they're gonna give
a good yield, what am I gonna earn out of Artemis?
Anytime there is a transaction that get built in,
somebody wanna go to our, let's say play,
or somebody gonna go to our prediction model,
or somebody is gonna go to a yield market
that we should talk about some point.
If they're going to go
there and use those, they're going to pay gas fees. The gas fees are paid in BTC. Suppose they pay
0.2 BTCs, or 0.002 BTC, whatever, and then there are many, many transactions that get built up.
Those transactions are going to be paid to who? It's going to be paid to the sequencer. It could
be Artemis, could be sequencer one, could be sequencer three. But let's say Artemis has been chosen to produce a block and get doze yield. Artemis will get that
return and it has to distribute it to these individuals. Well, what Artemis does, there is
here, there's a little bit of a nuance that is actually, I'm going to call it later for people,
a double-dipping. But I will stop first just to ask you first, as up to now, is it clear to you?
Some BTCs comes in, this BTC is gonna get to the Artemis,
Artemis is going to share it,
and is going to share it forcibly, generously,
because if they don't,
other people will go to other sequences that they share more,
and then you're gonna get some return
because you provide a proof of stake to the network.
At this point, is it okay? Sorry, I'm not sure. No, no, no. Yeah, this is all making sense to draw some parallels for
anyone who maybe struggles to follow this. So, you know, we're all accustomed to bridging
to another L one or an L two. So same process here. You do have to bridge from either native Bitcoin from the Bitcoin network
or from from BNB chain in the form of BTCB or DogeB which is Doge on BNB.
Once you hit Goat network, that like now you're in the DeFi playground of what's there on
Goat and one of the earliest protocols,
like really like the one that is going to be foundational for DeFi on Goat network is
Artemis. And Artemis, I would liken to something like Lido or EtherFi, like you're ultimately,
right, you're getting like an LST when you deposit. If I deposit like
my my Bitcoin that I bridged over, I'm going to get art BTC.
If I deposit or stake BTCB, I'm going to get art BTCB or I'm
going to get art Doge B. And then that that's what Red,
that's the simplest way for me to like, start to participate
and earn.
I don't have to have any other exposure and I'm ultimately earning those sequencer and
like mining fees.
But I can use that in other DeFi potential.
No, that's the reason why I stopped.
I stopped because I wanted to say, well, that's the step one.
You earn the earning.
You already earning because you're earning your sharing and the fees of the sequencers.
You already let's you have a yield bearing token. We tokenize your return. Basically,
now you make ARTBTC or let's call it YBTC, whatever. I like to call it YBTC because it's
not only Artemis. It could be any sequencers can create one of them. The Artemis can become ART BTC, which is what at the end?
You have a shared revenue with whatever the sequencer
is making at the essence.
Now we move to what you just hinted to.
Since we already tokenized these returns,
or this yield bearing token, we become a BTC
that gives you the right to earn some year. Now, it's exactly
this LIDL at some point or LIDL, depending on how people pronounce it, used to be so, oh, that's a
fantastic, that's a genius idea. In fact, this is similar to what we have in Steroid, because you
can use the same tokenized BTC, which we just called YBTC or ARTBTC.
It's already made from Artemis.
And you go to provide liquidity,
let's say in the BTC, YBTC pool.
Or you can say, I'm gonna provide backed lending
and you're gonna earn there.
It means when you provide liquidity, you're earning extra.
Because on one side, because you already tokenize it,
you're earning on the shared revenue.
On the other side, any application
that we have in the ecosystem, you're
actually doubling your return because you're
earning those type of returns from the liquidity provider
or from the creation of market like Pendle, for example.
Let's assume we don't have yet a relationship with Pendle,
but we are doing the same thing.
You can act, you know, say, look,
since I have a yield bearing token
that I'm already earning yield,
I can basically lock it for a three months or four months
and we get decomposed those yields into the yield only,
principle only, and that also makes you earn yield.
It means in a sense, in a nutshell, it's a double-dipping.
You, when you bridge to the GoDeFi universe
and you have chosen what sequencer you go to,
you're gonna be earning yield
and you're gonna automatically have a yield bearing token.
And that yield bearing token is the,
it's almost like the oil of the flywheel in the system.
Anywhere you're gonna go, you're gonna use that version. It means while you're while you're earning liquidity fees or you're
earning something else, you're automatically earning something else, which is the sequencer.
You get that? I think hopefully I'm clear.
This is all making sense.
Double depend is the easy way I think about it.
Yeah, I think it's it's important that you understand that,
I mean, a lot of DeFi relies on some sort of
like foundational yield bearing token.
And so like on something like Ethereum,
because of proof of stake,
there's this underlying like two and a half
to three and a half to four percent
type yield and like so much has been built on that.
In this case, there's a focus here on like two pretty enormous communities.
I mean with like a lot of value at stake, which is Bitcoin holders and Doge holders.
I think like one other thing I was considering
like just when I was first like looking at Goat is
there are other Bitcoin centric,
call them like L1s, L2s, side chains, L2s.
I'm wondering like how do you think as like economics lead
about differentiating from these, you know,
like there is some overlap in the value prop there.
And so like, yeah, building a community from scratch. How do you do that?
Actually, I like your questions because one thing you're very precise using the word sidechain
instead of using the word L2 because there is no pure L2 today. And that's a compliment to you.
I like that because anybody who you see right now saying,
we're a pure L2, is not yet.
It's only a development.
It's only in the progress.
And I think we are kind of advanced.
But anywhere else that you see people are, there
is this idea, and I'm not going to name.
There is a very famous article I'm
going to share if you share with the audience about Microsoft.
It's called basically, it until you make it
And the and it's an article by a very famous prof that actually wrote about their quantum computing
I'm diversion to come back
But they say we have solved this we have solved this and then they always get retracted the papers
But the strategy has always been let's create a lot of noise in the meantime
There is a lot of irrational a lot of noisy traders that just jump in because of the noise.
There is this problem happening right now,
and it's hurting everybody.
And I hope that people are as as precise as what you said,
calling themselves sidechain first and showing the progress
into becoming an elder.
It means in that stage, we all trying
to reach the idea of being elder.
The proposition for us to be different,
I think the main thing first is decentralization.
I'm not aware of other BTCs that actually, we call them,
let's say, the side chain or potentially L2 that
are actually built on the idea of decentralized sequences.
There are none.
And if there is none, you cannot have a sustainable security. And if you cannot have a sustainable security.
And if you cannot have a sustainable security,
you cannot generate profit that is secure.
And if you don't generate profit that is secure,
you cannot share profit.
Literally, it's finance 101.
You'll be able to generate high.
But if you don't have decentralization,
at some point, it's going to cost you so much
to be claiming to inherit BTCL1 and you're not.
And then you're going to let go security for the potential of yield and then things actually
will go down.
Goat is built on decentralization, is built on the economic idea of given decentralization
of sequencers, we will be able and we are able
to build an economic design so that we have cost efficient security and that would allow us to
generate good yield because what is yield at the end? Revenue minus cost equal profit and the yield
is a sharing mechanism of profit. Revenue is the ecosystem and how do we develop an ecosystem? As I said, it's built on the idea of this tokenization of YBTC
and flying the system.
We'll talk about that in a second.
But just for a 30,000 feet review of this,
if you have sustainable revenue,
you need to manage your cost of security.
And if your security is too costly because you're not decentralized,
you have nothing to share because your cost of security. And if your security is too costly because you're not decentralized,
you have nothing to share because your profit goes there.
Goat is built on the idea of giving you sustainable security
so that your profit becomes sustainable.
And because they compete over the users who stake,
that they can generate a good share of that profit
for a long term.
It means we demarcate ourselves or differentiate ourselves from decentralization,
which is the core essence of blockchain.
And I'm sorry, this is actually almost funny that we are in 2025
and we are trying to push for decentralization,
which is the essence of how this business even started.
It means we are decentralized, the others are not decentralized.
Second, the idea of multi-coin proof of stake,
it's unique to us.
Because all the coin you see there, OK, you're going to stake,
and you have one coin to stake.
We basically think about it from a vector point of view.
You can stake both Doge and both BTC,
and those are helping both secure the system.
And that leverage in two of the largest communities
to drive users.
Because remember I said I need to come back
to the sustainable revenue?
In order to sustainable revenue, you
need to be able to bring in the most decentralized, the most
distributed community out there.
It means our thinking economically
is I need to tap into a distributed
community. Well, how do I do it if I'm only asking for BTC to stake? Oh, is there a way
to actually stake both? Yes, we develop it. We call ourselves a multi coin proof of stake.
It means three different words for your audience. Sustainable security, meaning security at the cheapest cost, decentralization, which is unique,
and a multi coin proof of stake.
These are three things that you don't find anywhere else.
And now if we talk about the foundation, as I said,
we're proud to say that we have done great progress
on the ZKM side and the users and the audience
can check our websites on the ZKM side. And the users and the audience can check our websites
on the benchmark.
We have a playground of BitVM.
And I love the way you asked the question as a sidechain.
Today, we are still moving toward a very good main net
security inheritance.
But we're not there.
And no one is there.
But we're transparent about it.
And we're showing our progress on it and why we probably will be one of the first. Hopefully it's clear as a differentiation.
Yeah, Red, I think that was a great explanation. Very kind of based in first principles thinking
and I mean the market isn't always valuing that, but I think we all know that starting
from these sturdy foundations is, you have to do it.
Even in just in my own investing,
I need my own personal operational security
has to be impeccable because if I'm investing in something
and my funds aren't safe, well, what's even the
point of doing the action in the first place if you're not building something on a sturdy
foundation?
So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
One of the things I want to just get into is with a new network comes a lot of new native
apps.
Right?
So in that lies, I think a lot of opportunity maybe
Maybe just like name a few other ecosystem partners
and then maybe this is like a good segue to just get into a bit of your
What looks like another kind of novel point system with with go points and NGC?
Actually that
This is an area for which probably I will not be the best speaker on it, which
is more on the point side because I'm more of a design guy on the...
But I will share with you what I can, but I'm not like the best speaker on this part.
No worries.
But I'll talk about it.
As I said, our core DNA is being transparent rather than just talking fluffy and saying
what we know. And this part,
which is the ecosystem partners, I can name some. Uniswap is one of them. They have a different
name when they come to us. They are active. It's on our website. It's easy to go to our website and
see all the partners that are active, already connected, and already active, can be on day one
when we could be in that and they're already there as Alphanet.
It means Uniswap is one of them
and I'm just naming one of the biggest one.
There's a prediction model,
which is already built by a new team,
is not the famous prediction model, but it's there.
And there is others, it means,
in sense when I looked at them all,
I don't think competitors and us
would differentiate
itself.
They're all similar.
If you go to, and I don't want to name all the others,
if you go to five or six, which is on the space,
and I did this job act, I looked at the intersection
of all the equals, it's actually similar.
The prediction model, the gambling,
it's all centered over this.
Prediction model, gambling, and some kind of liquidity providers
for different units.
It's kind of similar.
It means that's not how you're going
to create a large community because you just basically
have the same thing that can go anywhere.
What we have is unique is the fact
that remember something very, because you tokenize
your reward from different other people, either you play,
either you predict, either you do whatever you want to do,
you still generate the highest yield possible
from your token.
It means that's an extra double dip in, not the first.
It's not like the bread and butter,
but it's the extra things you're making.
And that's, I think, very unique.
I don't think a network these days will distinguish
itself because it has an app that no one has, especially because we're EVM compatible. And if
it's EVM compatible, anybody with us can be on somewhere else right away. And an app is so stupid
to be only uniquely with one place. It means any economist, any designer, if they build their
competitive advantage on the fact that they have an app that no one have and if it's compatible EVM
You have it today you not have it tomorrow
Now you ask the second part of your question, which is the airdrop today? We have
campaign as all systems
they have a campaign or a drop in the beginning and
with Artemis if you come in and lock you get double of your. And this point will get trade-run converted into Go token.
And basically, just to give you a number, even if you have very little transactions,
two transactions per second, and even without a drop,
without a drop, two transactions per second will get you to 12% yield on BTC. Remember,
we're comparing against two or three and even 50 basis points in some kind of back lending.
It means if you're kind of going to the app to generate 50 basis points because you're
providing your YBTC in order to have collateral lending, that's not competitive. What is competitive is that you add in that on top
of the 12% you're earning as a sequencer.
That's the key.
That's the matter that changed between us and other places.
And I hope I make it,
it's not like I'm not going details in it,
it's because I don't think is the competitive advantage.
I hope I'm addressing your question.
Okay, so I'm thinking about where we are today. And if you go to one piece, dot go dot network, the yields that get quoted for holding one of the LSTs, the Artemis LSTs for Bitcoin or Doge, it's quoted around 20% APY. Having talked to the team previously, I believe this is
partially underpinned by a future token valuation of let's say around 250 million. Let's fast forward to like long after like a TGE and you know right now there's yeah there's there's a lot of
GE and you know, right now there's, yeah, there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of rewards available right now because we're pre TGE and this is something again, we're familiar with like, folks paid attention to like the launch with like a bearer chain like, there's a lot of opportunity here with new protocols and stacking points plus real yields.
and stacking points plus real yields. How are you thinking about this underlying yield that basically sustains all of these LST holders long after the TGE?
I'm thinking more about where's the focus as a team, as a network. you know, do you need just a few killer apps? Are you thinking
that like building up a base of more users, transacting with smaller amounts and having
to sort of onboard more normies who, you know, are let's say newer to Bitcoin? I'm kind
of thinking about like the go to market here. and basically, how do you build a sustainable community?
Because you've got a sustainable yield
that is underpinning this network,
but you also have to obviously build up
a sustainable user community.
If there is no, I always call it,
if you have zero user, you have zero yield.
Because there's nothing to share.
You can build the best model in the world
that have risk sharing, profit sharing, securities,
but with zero user, then zero return to share.
That's always the case.
It means the focus on user.
Can I just back a little bit?
Everything I was talking about, I wasn't actually focused on.
I was focused about, when you say sustainability,
you never talk about a month or two.
We're talking about a design that will stay for kind of long term.
But you bring me back to today.
For example, today, yes, you're right.
It's 20% instead of 12.
When I mentioned the word 12, I mentioned 12% based on let's say you have two transactions
per second, transaction per second.
I wasn't even factoring the idea of Goat Token prices expected and the airdrop campaign that we do today.
Just to be clear, even without talking about this idea of airdrop, which actually helps oil and helps start and initiate the flywheel. I was discussing in a word for which we rely mainly
on transaction rather than relying on a drop
to initiate the system.
But then to back to your question now, it is true.
It's based on, I don't think it's 250,
but it's less than that.
Like for a certain market cap, a certain organization,
we're talking about 20% returns,
but that return is not denominated in BTC
because in that return is basically given to you
in an expected price of GOAT.
Because as of now, we don't have a lot of transaction
guess, we just started.
So we can sell.
It means today, yes, the system is based on GOAT token.
And its GOAT token is going to be shared.
If that 20% is going to be interesting,
if that's interesting, people will come.
Second thing you ask about the killer app,
because everything you said is part of,
everybody's thinking about the same thing.
But I think one thing about us,
which is distinguished us for many,
is also the killer app, everybody will say that.
And I think we do have, and you can go to the website and you
can see some really good app.
But I will single out one of them,
which I think is unique to us, which
is if you go to our website and check,
it's the decomposition of the yield.
And just for your audience to remember,
we are talking you already making 12% or 20%
or depend on the start. if you have really good transaction, you
may end up even getting way more double digit.
But then the idea we had is rather than trade in YBTC, what about decomposing it into markets?
Now we're going to create markets.
And markets is going to be the YBTC.
The market for the yield is alone and the market for the principal is alone.
Means one of the app we think it's going to draw a lot of attention because it creates a lot of transactions
is the arbitrage opportunities between the Y BTC which is the Yard Bailing Token.
And basically people will come and they say how much I expect I'm going to make in yield for this sequencer
and they trade on their expectation of yield And they trade on their expectation of yield,
or they trade on their expectation
of the principal in BTC.
Why am I saying about this?
Because the more transaction exists, the more yield exists.
Transaction come from two sources.
You can have a large community, but if they trade one time,
and if they have just like a BTC-backed loan, which
is going to take, I don't know,
one transaction, two transaction is not actually enough. It means you need large community,
but you also need high frequency trading that actually pays a lot of transaction
and generate a lot of return for us. It means it's a tale of two stories. One story is relying on
a multi-coin system
to tap into two big communities that can come,
even if they have 0001 Bitcoin or 0001 Doge,
and they can use it for prediction or they can use it,
which is a large scale community,
few transactions per person,
or creating markets for which there is a lot
of arbitrage opportunities.
And those arbitrage opportunities are created because of this decomposition of the yield.
And those arbitrage opportunities create a lot of transactions, even though you just have one
artificial AI system running it in order to create the convergence into the right price.
I hope I make it. This is a little bit technical, but I'm just trying to decompose it into,
it's not just the number of people,
it's also the number of transaction driven
by arbitrage trade.
And this is both things that Goat are thinking about.
And if you look at the decomposition
of what we have in our killer apps,
you're gonna find that there are some apps
that rely over large volume of people to come,
hence the multi-coin proof of stake of Doge and BTC and trying to tap into larger community. And you're going to find a focus of apps that doesn't rely on a lot of people, but it requires
a lot of transactions because there is a lot of money to be made. That money is made because of us creating a market for yields and a market for
principle per sequencer. If I have 100 sequencers, I have 100 markets. I have hundreds AI running in
the background for people coming active to trade on those deviation between BTC and
on those deviation between BTC and let's say YBTC or trade in the yield versus other. I hope I make
it clear. It's a long answer, but it's in order to distinguish from anybody else that you open
and you're going to just see beautiful icons. Oh, this is green. Oh, this is red. And oh,
this is all Uniswap is here. Oh, I'm trying to tell you this from a foundational point of view.
You cannot make money if you just rely on people.
You have to rely also on transaction per people.
And transactional per people, it's
usually defined by the arbitrage of opportunities.
But also more people is good.
And that's why we do the multi-coin proof of stake,
which is also unique to us.
This is how we think of the vision of the ecosystem.
It means thinking of app a little bit differently. unique to us. This is how we think for the vision of the ecosystem.
It means thinking of app a little bit differently.
It's not just a brand name, but what type of transaction,
how many transactions per person,
and how many transactions are paid for us
to be generated to the sequencers,
hence to the final user.
I think this is a long answer, but I hope I,
this is what I hope I have, let's say, a place to show it
and not just a radio.
Honestly, Red, I think it all clicked mostly for me
with that last explanation there.
Because if you think of just another entity,
take Arbitrum and Ofkane Labs, for example.
Of course, they want to incentivize a lot of transactions as well, but they're
kind of incentivizing it a lot in part for maybe their own benefit, whereas in
this case, there's incentive alignment.
And I'll use a term that is almost cliche and overused, but there's just such an
obvious flywheel here at the heart of what you're
building.
And I think there's just way more kind of incentive alignment with just everyday users
versus just maybe a labs entity somewhere that's taking a lot of that sequencer fee
that's incentivized to boost the sequencer for themselves.
Whereas like, if you get incentive alignment from market makers,
regular users, whales, minnows, like all the different kind of archetypes of DeFi users, I think you can kind of see how a strong community could form from this foundation.
So to be what you said, just say, man, today, if you put BTC in collateral lending,
I try not to name
anyone how much you really make today you make 50 bit 20 basis point 50 days max then how much
liquidity this app can attract even if it's the killer app of the world but what if I tell you
this in fact in order for you to bring me BTC don't bring me BTC, don't bring me BTC. Bring me a tokenized version of BTC that is earning yield. You already know that your money is already making some of the transaction. You're feeling
comfortable. It's incentive compatible. I'm using the word you use. It's an incentive compatible
now for people to say, yeah, I'm okay now with that 50 base extra yield. It means, and that's
not even genius from us or anything to be honest
I sometimes I'm ashamed to tell you the reason is decentralization it's always
back to the beginning if you don't have decentralized sequencers you have
nothing good because you can build nothing it's almost like give you a
hammer and I tell you go build a house or you're gonna build a house you have
only a hammer you're gonna just like you have nothing else if you have
decentralization you can build competition.
You can build the idea of this created this and that.
You can create different markets
of conversions and diversions.
You can create a choice and a choice for staking
and the choice of restaking.
Restaking is mainly just say,
use the staked version and put it somewhere else.
And that's how you build an ecosystem
because you establish an incentive for an individual
to view the 50 bases different than before
because they view it as an extra
rather than the absolute value.
And you also think about as I'm gonna today trade
but what if I go sleep for two hours?
Am I not making money?
No, no, you're making money because you're still earning.
Your Y token is earning yield while you basically sleep in
because you provide insecurity.
To me, it's all back to the beginning of decentralization.
And of course, you have to add, you have a community
and the community from the multi-coin
and you need to have different type of apps.
And almost I can summarize this in two bullet points.
The apps has to be two type.
Apps that depend on the number of people,
an app that depends on the number of arbitrage trades.
We have, in terms of arbitrage, we're
probably the best in the world, because we're
going to create more market of arbitrage than anybody else.
Because there is a market of arbitrage for each sequence.
While everybody else is centralized,
even if they copy and they do it,
they're gonna have one mark.
And it's gonna be definitely not secure
because you're gonna have a point of failure.
And if you have a point of failure,
you have a huge impermanent loss.
I hope I'm clear about this.
And I'm passionate about decentralization, by the way,
which is basically the basic.
Many people will say, what is this guy talking about?
Yeah, but that's the problem. Guys, look around.
Everything is centralized in the DeFi world.
It is.
The majority, I mean, on the BTC, not in the Ethereum,
but it is actually the case.
Yeah, I...
We spoke to a DeFi builder recently who, I won't name,
but yeah, behind closed doors, he was just talking about like, he felt like the space had moved backwards since the last like major cycle in 2020 2021. And then like 2018 2019 almost felt like the space was unwilling to compromise on anything that wasn't going to be like maximally decentralized and uncensorable
and that was actually holding back some of the app development. And then, yeah, things
have clearly shifted to a degree. I think this is why, you know, going back to Go network,
the fact that you're you're built around a community of Bitcoin holders and Doge holders. And these,
these are tokens that are held by a very large community. I think Bitcoin clearly stands
as like, you know, it is the most decentralized, secure blockchain if I have to pick one, if
I got to pick one that's going to be around, you know, in 10 years. No, no, no. Bitcoin will be around, but the L2s or the side chains are centralized. That's
what I'm trying to hint. They are centralized. Then you have in a house, you're trying to
build L1, L2, and you have an L1 that is very decentralized, your floor, your first floor,
and you're automatically go to the second floor and you say, I'm an inheritor in first
floor security.
Well, come.
You just changed the whole culture on the core of it.
How can a second floor be centralized
and it's inherited the decentralized version
of the first floor?
I'm actually, my mind explode when I hear this.
And I'm telling you, if you check around,
except goat, all of them are centralized.
To my knowledge, of course, and I could be wrong, but to the majority of them.
To the best of my knowledge, to be clear.
Red, is there anything else you'd like to share before we start to wrap up?
I did want to ask you if there's a next milestone on the road map that you wanted to share, just anything
that folks can look forward to?
I think right now the big thing coming up is the main net.
I would like to share probably with the people that are listening right now to come to Goat.
You have different versions to go to Goat.
There is a chance for you right now, there is a campaign on Artemis basically to
double the point anytime you go and we need that as an initial boost for any physical
initiation of the network. I think we're going to be come talk to us in any event you see
us, come ask us all the tough questions on security, please. And I have one request for all the audience.
Do please ask security question to the all side chain
that you see out there, because the majority of them
actually that's the problem which
becomes sustainable security.
It means I'm trying to say to the audience,
because we're moving toward being more accepted
as a community.
A lot of traditional finance is coming in with the idea that things have to make yield and things not just sit there and silent. I'm making the users try to understand, make sure you ask the right questions when you invest your money.
Make sure you realize what type of returns you get in.
Everybody say 20%, 10%, 5%, but in what?
We are saying you're making right now 20%,
but now it has to be good token,
but in the future it's in BTC.
Because the more transaction is,
the more you're going to make a return in BTC.
In terms of milestones, I think there are...
Something maybe I will try to...
We have in...
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this or not,
but I say it and maybe.
We are in very advanced talk with not just retail and institutions but also with countries
that seems to be very interested into having BTC working for them as a social good.
Because if they lock in many BTCs they can generate return for their community, for their pensioners, and we are in a very advanced. It means GOAT is not for just retail.
It's GOAT is trying to be a place because of sustainability is to attract both retails and
there is a milestone coming soon which will announce the partnership with these governments
that actually basically we're close to announce it but I don't want to mention the name and stuff like that that's one of the
milestone and of course the main net and come to our website ask us questions and
this email ask ask tough questions please yeah on that on that note I do
want to remind listeners they can learn more about goat network by going to goat
dot network there's also a website one piece dot
goat dot network. That's like a great hub just to discover different yield
opportunities. It links to the Goat Network bridge. It's a place you can
create a referral link. So just a really good spot to get started and learn more.
And then lastly make sure that you follow Goat Roll Up on X or Twitter.
That's their official handle.
And we'll put all that into our show notes.
For those that are listening to this as a live space, thanks so much for joining us.
Again, we do this every Friday.
Love to have on teams that are enabling these like on chain yields.
However, we do repackage this as like a podcast. So we'll clean it up just a bit. So some of the
in between banter is cut out and it's a little bit easier for you to listen to. And so if you prefer
listening to it in podcast format, or if you have a friend that you might recommend listening to it, just subscribe at the-edge.xyz.
That's a great place just to get notifications and reminders and all the content there is
ungated.
It just requires an email.
Now before we go then, just wanted to say thank you so much, Red, for joining us.
This was really fun to get to talk with you from like an economics
standpoint. Definitely interesting to get your take as the as one of the folks designing out all of these incentives and how
the network provides the sustainable yield in Bitcoin. But otherwise, thanks for your time. And just want to give you the
Thanks for your time and just want to give you the final word if there's anything else you wanted to share.
final word if there's anything else you wanted to share.
No, thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
I want to remind just the users that I'm an economist.
I'm not a marketing person.
It means sorry guys, I'm not doing the job here to to basically tell you like this is a drop here.
I'm trying to hopefully convince you that this is sustainable.
And that's really the role I'm trying to add to this project.
Last decade has been pure technology.
I think the next decade, it's going
to be a marriage between technology and economics.
Poor economics will never yield sustainable.
That's why I'm actually trying to calibrate
when you listen to me and send me
emails and send me questions, whatever you want,
to the Goat Network, whatever
to answer on the economic side. But if you want more on the on the on the on the Goat
on the campaign on the things that other people actually will dedicate you to just to calibrate
basically my role.
All right. Well, everyone, thank you for joining us. Happy Friday and we will see you next time.
Thanks so much, Red.
Take care.
Thanks, Red.
It was a pleasure.
Likewise.
