GMGM everyone, give us a few minutes to set this up.
Can we have a mother on stage please?
Hey Hamad, you must have been receiving requests to accept the speaker slot. If you are not in mobile phone, this only work on mobile phone, it will not work on desktop.
Hey, you're here. Yeah, sorry. I joined through desktop, but also it now. Yeah, that's a common one. No issues. How are you doing, though? Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. I'm excited to be here and talk to you about yourself.
Yeah, same here. Likewise, I'm very excited to host you, Ahmad. It's been a great experience working closely with you over the last year or so and it's a pleasure to be hosting you here. I'm very excited for this space. Thank you for taking your time out and welcome to the space.
No, thank you and I agree. I think we've been probably on a journey together for a few cents at a time. I started with you. I never had, but yeah, excited to be here.
Awesome. Cool. Two cake things off. I want to introduce everyone. Give just give a big background about how Madhya has been a quintessential piece for index group of financial operations.
And now he's the co-founder of region and I think he's the best person to introduce himself about that one but I let you Hamad introduce yourself. I think that's the best way to get this together sing rolling.
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, I guess I can start from the beginning of how I got involved in the three space and thousand general. So I guess I like most people had a background in the corporate world working in consulting. We were not the big four and actually it was around probably
be just after the DeFi summer and going into the hype of the bull market in 2021. That my my co-founders, Joe and Elliot had basically found these things called Dows. They started both contributing to Indescoop and they kind of peaked my interest as I was like, "Oh, what are these Dows things you guys
is kind of contributing to on the side like part time alongside your normal jobs. Then eventually that can point where Joe needed some help with some internal off stuff at index group. And which provided me an opportunity to kind of start contributing there.
And I guess that's where I also met you as one of my first kind of contributions to index keep was helping them develop their contributor rewards process. And yeah, and the rest is kind of history. So that was about, I think in 2021 around that time.
Yeah, perfect. And I also want to like take a deep dive into why did you you know, jump to contributing to the house when you were already like settled in a very well paid position. I believe what was it that you that really caught you exactly
excited about those. Yeah, no good question. I guess firstly, like I mentioned, it was like this flexibility it would allow me. I mean, working in the corporate world, you know, you're very much in a hard, hard, hard, difficult organization.
your set hours of doing I don't know, 9 to 5 for most people. Probably don't have much for stay on your work streams and from hearing it through my two K-funded friends then as well that they were allowed to kind of run with a lot
of things themselves, had a lot more responsibility, and this new mechanism around decision making and being able to be part of big strategic decisions in some kind of way is what I guess attracted me initially to joining a down, I guess.
Very interesting and now since you've contributed to Dows for more than a year I would say and It's a very simple question that I just keep asking myself and all the other people. How would you define Dows?
I think it's the hard question to probably try and answer and I think probably everyone's opinions have been changing including mine I'd say. I mean I was starved with what I thought was a vow initially when I first joined it which was you know you
very much so it has like a new way of basically forming organizations which allowed really enabled you a new forms of like collaboration, innovation, especially that aspect of like collective decision making was definitely something that was very different from the corporate world, you know, remembering those kind of
to major and central authorities. And that transparency you would have with not just internal stakeholders but external ones as well. So that's how I would say that was kind of started off in my head anyway from my opinion. And kind of now I guess moving on to the progress since then
of what I'm seeing, maybe have seen how the cows are evolving. There's few things I think a lot of organisations have started realising that cows and their collective decision making might may not be the best way for them to run, where there is maybe a need for centralisation
And someone's staring the ship as we might say, obviously without capturing governance, but having that central kind of team that can really allow the organization to focus on this strategic goals and provide direction. So there's some, I think, changes there that I'm seeing with a lot of those incorporating these kind of leadership
as you might say with some kind of responsibilities and decision making abilities. So yeah, I say that's the biggest change I've seen in DAO's in particular at the moment is like there is some kind of central leadership team that is usually evolving in the DAO.
Interesting and you know we've been seeing that you know 2021-2022 was both couriers for evolution of tiles like we saw great experimentation happening throughout the various forms
of towers that we have now seen evolved into. And so there are a lot of learnings, right? A lot of learnings from them and now we're at the stage where the houses are trying to find product market fit for themselves, right?
And so what what what are your learnings basically from the past two years as to what forms of douse would work best going forward in the future and what forms of douse you're kind of less bullish on
Yeah, no, I have a good question. I mean, I guess I'll fix on which ones I think potentially could work or what can use cases I think can be for particular organisms, work as dows. I was actually reading a very interesting article a few days ago that was released by a speed club about
how they mentioned that they see thousands of these kind of consumer products. So basically they see thousands of experiences that you can become a part of and really feel a part of the community.
community and be able to build something around the social kind of side of things of the house. That's why we're able to see maybe protocols which are more focused on business initiatives or developing products. Maybe they might not be the best, a downmoder might not be the best for them.
But for example, an initiative like Cabin Dow that you probably heard of building like network cities, etc. And very much have the mantra of having this be part of our community and the experience that we offer. I think organization like that can really adopt the down model.
and really grow from it. Because what I just want to get from personal experience and opinion, what I'm seeing is a lot of people aren't joining thousands, nowadays they're not joining thousands, search for another job. They're wanting to really be involved in the decision making side of things.
They're really kind of joining them to really be a part of something and have that sense of belonging. Basically, the dows need to try and offer these kind of consumer experiences, I think, to really bring in a new way of, you could say, contributors or community members within dows and
Yeah, that's a good one. And so we're basically saying that not every project should be a DAO because there are inherent challenges in actually running a DAO. And so what we're saying essentially is that there are some forms of projects that are very well
suited for DOW as opposed to just incorporating a company. And so you took an example of Kibindow and I want to understand, very keen to understand like what is it that Kibindow or any other form of DOW that you say are very well suited to. DOW has inherent benefits as opposed to just forming a company.
Yeah, good question. So I guess in carbon-doubts example, they're looking to kind of build this, basically, a network, right? And they want the main, I guess, the core vision they have is they want to build a community. I think one thing that I really good at is bringing together people with similar vision.
and similar goals. So I think that was a great idea, which is aligning people together when they're looking to build a community kind of project or something that would really make people feel like they belong. So where I see maybe where those don't work is where you have
more like a product-sized business or are looking to make a lot of revenue and need that kind of centralized organization in some way. So, for example, I mean, there's been also other cool projects that we've seen when people were trying to pull together money to buy the constitution.
or even you probably heard of the I think they called Krasnaya by an MBA team. So it's like a really cool, innovative way of now basically bringing together people, which they don't need to have like a highly-exclusive
professional experience for doing this kind of thing. That was allowed for these increased coordination and distributed ownership being enabled to tokens. So you can really like work towards basically owning a global brand, like an NBA team, etc. through these community building side of which Dows offer.
Yeah, this is brilliant. So I completely get it now. So there are, you know, these specific forms of towers, which are mostly community led because that's, you know, what dows are created like they can really attract talent and
We've seen that during the last two years as well that they've interacted the best of talents. Some of them have not been able to retain them because of several reasons but they do a very good job at basically attracting those talents.
So my next question is like who are the type of people like what is the archetype of these people who should instead of contributing to a startup or a or a company should opt for contributing to a job.
So I guess based on my previous answer about the kind of way I see cows working maybe in a consumer products kind of way, it would have to be anyone who wants to basically be part of a community and have ownership of something they really
believe it, like a passion, of course, there's a lot of people who might want to buy it, be part of owning an NB team. So, you know, really knowing exactly what you want to be a part of and that does allow a great model to have that ownership structure around
being able to be part of something big. And initially, I mean, I know there's obviously still dows that will be like defy protocols, etc. And there's still very great models for attracting people. Like I said, they offered me flexibility. That was one
something I was really big reason for me wanting to leave like the corporate world having this flexibility of the way I contributed. But I think where those kind of organizers potentially have changed now even if they are still considered thousands they've realized that you can't just onboard anyone.
the area to entry probably has changed in the last few years since I've joined and been part of the space where it's becoming, it's not as easy like I, you know, I gave an example. I basically got in through my network and I think even that's becoming much harder now where a lot more
Interesting. And so my next question was supposed to be about the current state of Tao. I mean you worked here for some time in Tao's
You've seen them evolve and what do you see now? What are the biggest challenges that Tao has faced right now? What are they doing right? What are they doing wrong and how do you see them evolving?
Yeah, no, great question. I mean, I can, yeah, there's definitely been some challenges rising. I think I kind of started hitting on one of them, which earlier which I can expand on now, which was around this kind of collective decision making. I think we all, a lot of cows died realizing that maybe leaving everything to like a governor
is in the best way to go. It can be a very slow process for decision making and cryptos and environment that things happen very quickly and change very quickly so sometimes you have to act fast. And also the second point there is not everyone who is a pot voting participant will have the best context around that particular topic.
So they might not even be the best place person to be voting on something like that. So I think there has definitely been a realization that there needs to be maybe more centralization in decision making, whether it be a leadership team or giving your certain functions, team functions autonomy to act, for example, your finance team
might have the autonomy to make decision on treasury management. Rather than having to put up a proposal each time and then by time they propose it's gone through. The state of the market's already changed and they can't do anything. So definitely something around decision, I think the decision making framework is definitely changing.
I guess one negative thing that's happened around this, which we've been seeing in certain doses, it can lead to then governance maybe being captured by a group. It might be Wales, it might be a certain, like the leadership team, which obviously kind of takes away the decentralized power of
How does should be if governance is captured then basically the vote that normal token holders might have won't count for anything. So I think there is some challenges there that need to be fixed around how we can stop basically governance being captured by a few large token holders or a group of people within the organisation.
Hey Hamad, I want to decide from parcel. I guess some problem with Anubov's account. I'm just making him join. - The guys? - Yeah Anubov.
Yeah, I'm a bike. Yeah, I think I need a spot.
I'm sorry, there's some network issues happening here. Sorry, my
No worries at all. Do you want me to go over that question? I think the list is probably on what I said. Maybe you didn't.
Yeah, I was able to hear parts of it majorly, so I'm able to understand so thank you so much for speaking about that.
All of the questions were really about what can we do to make this better especially for contributors. We've seen that contributors who are wanting to contribute do not have the best of facilities to start contributing immediately.
like they don't have the best onboarding experience like they don't have they basically get unlimited liability when they start contributing to a DAO. And so there are things that really don't go well with regards to the
a talent like attraction of talent is great for those. And so what can we do? You being one of the contributors of index, what have you learned over the course of the last year or so as to how we can basically improve the lives of contributors?
That's a great point. I think you've hit some of the initial barriers. For example, I think the barrier of entry is definitely not easy anymore. And in terms of onboarding is even more difficult now, I say. So there's definitely, I think, something that we can do there in terms of improving this.
that like making those barriers to entry into dows easier and even more I'd say less time consuming and easy. I mean, that's one thing we're definitely I think hasn't changed in dows from this point they are even joined and was always a kind of barrier to entry was that you do need to put in that maybe an initial time sync and look
So there's that's a time cost as well where you might be contributing for free. Not really knowing if you're in deliverables or what you're inputting into will even be taken on board by the Dow. So there definitely can be improvements there about kind of I think which people are now working towards a lot of the else is like
improve, maybe formalizing the onboarding process a little bit more and adding some structure and fun to it I guess allows contribute is that ease of joining without knowing that they're going to have to add a lot of time to it and then not get anything back eventually.
And I guess, like we mentioned, that something around even improving the technology around this, I think, a lot of this stuff happens in Discord or Twitter, which aren't great technologies for, I'd say, user experience in terms of onboarding into a formal role, right?
So they're creating like better technology. I think that allows for easy access Adding some kind of more fun around the onboarding experience as well which are which certain more social hours are experimenting with if you've seen like nouns and friends with benefit thousands of started their own
apps, etc, which are branded and allow much more fun kind of engagement into the community activities and ownership experience as well. So it's definitely an improvement. I think people should look to those guys to kind of improve their onboarding in a way.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think the social experiments are really good for basically onboarding the new contributors into the ecosystem, which is great. My other concern is with regards to, you know, I've been talking to a lot of contributors is a sense of
security that you get in headly from working in a big company in a corporate world. So you get this financial security that you will get a recurring source of income and you will get
So, like you don't have to worry about taxes, compliances, you know, getting salary every month. What would you say or basically how can we basically make sure that anybody who wants to
to contribute to a DAO who's actually driven and is inspired by the mission of the DAO, whether they want to own a piece of the NBA team or whether they want to contribute to K-Bin Network.
What can they do right now to make sure that they are feeling that sense of security even while they're contributing to a doubt, like how are people