Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
Indie Insights: Unpacking Game Innovation
Recorded: April 1, 2025 Duration: 0:55:03Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion highlights significant innovations in the gaming industry, particularly in indie games and Web3 integration. Notable projects include Everreach Labs' interactive gameplay advancements and the launch of NitroLab's Casio game. The growth of indie games is evident with Revenge's high ranking on Epic Games Store, and Everreach Labs plans a token launch to further engage its community.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Oh, yeah. Set self from Set self from
Where we once been gone
What we wait, what we wait
I hold a record for numbers
For spaces we'll have
Bruins, more relics
The cycles have been gone
I hold a record for numbers
For spaces we'll have
Bruins, more relics, the cycles of the young
I touch my hands in a tree with golden scans
And now I, you can't forget our future plans
I touch my hands in a tree with golden scans
And the lights in the light of plants are golden in your hands We sell from where we once began When we wait, when we wait
The whole of records, all numbers
Those spaces still are gone
Ruins, all relics, disciples and the young
The whole of records, all numbers
Those spaces still are gone
Ruins, all relics, disciples and the young
Like I touch my hands in a dream of your best dance
You can't forget all future plans There you go. forget our future plans not to touch my hands with the turning of these cans
from the night and the light of lights and golden in your hands Oh, Oh, Oh,
Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, One day I'll ever creep out, stop me up and watch me go
I'll be running circles around you sooner than you know
A little upset, but I'm out of tune
Just kicking this girl on the avenue
But I'm alright
Cause it's easy, once you know I was done
You can't stop and now it's already begun
You feel it running through your phone
And you church it out.
And you church it out.
GM, GM, everybody.
Welcome back to another banger show with Everreach Labs.
Revolutionizing interactive gameplay by connecting spectators with players building Get Revenge.
Today we're here to talk about indie insights, unpacking game innovation, and why indie games
seem to be on top. We've got BR1 Infinite with us today, the world's first real money extraction
shooter. We've got Nicholas with us today, the co-founder and CEO of Everreach Labs. We've got Ryan with us today, video games, gambling, and web-free commander-in-chief at Brave Ready Games.
We've also got OP Games, decentralized game published, bridging indie games developers to web-free and AI.
And I got really confused with bridging there.
I was like, was it bringing?
And then, no, it was definitely bridging.
And then it made sense by the time I finished that sentence.
So absolutely banger panel that we have in front of us today.
Super, super excited to dive into this one.
So what we're going to do, listeners, if you can get the likes and the retweets of the room out,
if you're excited about today's show, really easy way to show support.
In the meantime, I'm going to get the mic over to Nicholas to give us his intro.
And then we're going to give the guest panelists a little TLDR about how we're going to run this.
But first, Nicholas, mic over to you. Are you excited for the show today, homie?
Hello, Jack. Hello, everyone. Yeah, I am.
Indie Gaming's creativity is something that speaks to us at Average Labs, I guess, and to the whole space.
We need innovation.
So looking forward to continue this discussion with all of you guys.
Wow, could not come off mute there.
Ex-bugging.
But look, Nicolas Nicholas completely agree I think what we're seeing right now is a huge shift
in how games are going to market how they're bringing attention but also in where gamers
are spending their time and I think part of that shift has to be acknowledged that indie games are
driving some of this and I can't wait to see where this conversation takes us today and what our
speakers think about that take.
For our speakers, if you've not been on a show with myself, Everreach Labs and Nicholas before,
quick TLDR about how we're going to run this one and then we'll get straight into it.
So really, really quick, organic conversation is what we're moving for today.
And when we say this, we mean it.
You are the thought leaders.
You guys are building in this space. Wherever you want to take the conversation, that's where we want you, we mean it. You are the, you know, you're the thought leaders. You guys are building in this space.
Wherever you want to take the conversation, that's where we want you to take the conversation.
But how do we get there
when I'm looking at a bunch of PFPs on stage?
I got no facial cues that are going to hint to me
when any of you guys want to come off mute.
So what I need from you,
if you are on stage today,
is bottom right-hand corner,
there is a heart plus symbol,
little hand raise
function right over there that you can basically just highlight to me you want to come in on this
specific conversation at that time i'll get the mic straight over to you that isn't incentive
enough we do also have jack points now jack points are the most worthless point system
in the entire crypto space maybe even the world They have no tangible value whatsoever, but you
do get 10 jack points for every time you raise your hand in the air and contribute to the
conversation today. At the end of the show, we'll tally them all together. We'll see who comes out
on top and the person who does come out on top, the winner, will receive absolutely nothing for
doing so. I've just said they're worthless, guys. Come on. But you will get my love and admiration
for adding a ton to the conversation today. But that really is it. Nothing else. I
know it's crypto. I know normally these things are pegged to generational wealth. These points
are not that. They are completely worthless. Okay, that's it. We want to dive into the show now.
And honestly, open question to all of our speakers to start with why are indie games seemingly at the front of innovation right
now is this is this just a bias i have am i just really really bullish on indie games because i
don't think so like i'm not gonna lie i'm grinding elden ring pretty religiously right now i need
that 100 so like i wouldn't say like i'm a you know a proper nerd when it comes to this stuff
that i am a live and die indie gamer but
at the same time i can't lie like the games i'm looking to play next are indie games and it's
because they seem to be super different from anything i've seen before and i want to know
what's going on here because the same old games are still coming out and still being chained
through otherwise ryan your hand came straight up Would love to hear your take on this and take the fair set of 10 jack points. What's up, guys, and good morning. Excited to be here. When it comes
to indie games, at the end of the day, the majority of indie games are bootstrapped by the team, by
the founders, and those founders have a key vision. They wanted to think outside of the box and try
something new versus their AAA peers who spent hundreds of millions of dollars producing those titles.
In traditional corporate entities, there are proven business models.
And it goes without saying, these entities are looking for a large ROI.
So they use tried and proven business models to be successful.
tried and proven business models to be successful it's us indie guys that get to think outside of
the box and quote unquote risk it for the biscuit on a new concept or idea and in the indie space
that you get to see so many incredibly cool concepts that you just never heard from these
traditional game publishers you look at games like wilder world or Wild Cards. And you look at our game, BR1 Infinite,
a pay to spawn, kill to earn shooter.
You look at, you know, the Web3 games
that populate our timeline so much.
I, you know, I'll call out some special projects
in a minute, but all in, it's the technical
integrations in Web3 that you just don't see
in Web2.
And then similarly, the outside of the box
ideas that you know traditional game publishers just they don't feel comfortable pursuing because
they're just not tried and true models and that's why things look so different in indie
yeah ryan what a great way to start the show i think that's a great great breakdown to really
dive into the conversation today we've got op games who agree because their hand has just hopped up
op games mike over to you oh god i don't know how to unmute this um hi everyone good morning my name
is chase uh from ob games ceo and co-founder i have to agree with ryan in terms of what he said
um you know as a former indie myself one of the things that we worry about in the past is how do we get past kind of like a triple A studio who has all the resources in the world, who has all the investors and the money in the world in terms of how we can get our games noticed out there.
it's more of like everything to gain, nothing to lose if you try something new.
Hence, pushing the boundaries in terms of like gameplay,
in terms of, you know, physics and mechanics of like how a game is made
is where innovation happens.
Come to think of, say, for example, Angry Birds.
It was like an early game back in the iOS and the Google Play Store.
But while it wasn't done by an indie. The physics
engine that was used by Angry Birds is Box2D, which was done by an indie game developer.
And the reason for that is because, you know, that person doesn't have any legacy business to
take care of in terms of, like, how to make money in the business. So, he open-sourced the engine,
and Angry Birds use it, and the way you see those birds falling is because of an independent game developer.
Right now, you see cases like a new game genre, like Vampire Survivors, for example,
which was a solo man team from Italy, but now has expanded the team to more than just himself
because it's seen massive success on Steam and iOS and Android. So all I'm saying
is that as an indie game developer, you kind of are able to push the boundaries because you don't
have anybody breathing down your neck in terms of like what kind of innovation you want to put
forward. And I think that's a good thing. The bad thing is a lot of indie games still don't get
funding. And I think that has to change at some point, whether it's in the Web2 space or the Web3 space.
Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, this is this is something I hear time and time again on these shows is I think that's why we see so so many projects actually come over to the crypto space now is because the funding is a little bit it's a little bit less tied up right it's a little bit less bureaucratic just a little bit like indie games are themselves and i think you know just the way we're seeing success right now
but it took a long long time to really push indie games into you know the limelight i think the same
about crypto and how that's going to impact games in the space so look op games fantastic take to
start off the show i can see we've also got a couple other speakers up here
now that i want to welcome to the stage so we've got castle um the next generation free a idol rpg
game set in a fantasy c-thulu i i c-thulu where universe are you gonna have to gonna have to help
me with their pronunciations there combined with cool cool web-free technology. And we've also got Phil with us,
the veteran video game designer
and design director of Everreach Labs.
Phil, your hand's popped up.
I want to get the mic over to you.
What's your take on all of this?
Why are indie games seemingly
really in the limelight these days?
Well, first of all,
I want to know more about this Cthulhu game.
It's pronounced Cthulhu.
And I am a huge fan of lovecraft and the uh and the whole uh science fiction world of
the mythos and uh so you know any new game that's coming out that uh features this uh world is uh
really interesting to me i'm i'm a total geek about this stuff.
So yeah, after I finish, maybe you can tell me more
about this game.
It sounds awesome.
Why are Indies in the limelight?
Well, as I've been trumpeting my horn of doom know these past few times that i've been on here
uh on average spaces i've been telling everyone uh that i think the triple a industry is on its
way out that uh there's uh as i call it and sensationally an extinction event um the all the signs are there huge huge projects are are bombing uh massive
uh games bigger than ever uh have uh uh sputtered and died without so much as a whimper without even
being noticed most people are like what what which game how much did they spend? And I see waves and waves of layoffs happening.
I see Ubisoft selling its IP to Tencent, you know, as a desperate survival strategy because they're losing money hand over fist.
They have tapped out the same old tired IPs.
They've been flogging for years.
The quality is going down.
The bugginess is going up.
The polish and the production value
that AAA used to guarantee,
that's why you go with AAA
because you know it's going to work
and you know it's going to be good.
And that's why you go with triple a because you know it's going to work and you know it's going to be good and that's no longer valid that's being um proven in in recent releases
people who have been fans of assassin's creed and other iconic ubisoft ip are disappointed by
recent releases uh not only are they slipping in in of their dates, but also slipping in terms of
production value and quality. Not just Ubisoft, it's across the board. You know, EA has had huge
failures. Other large publishers have had huge failures. Projects are being canceled. People are
being laid off in record numbers. And so it's, this is not, I don't think it's a, it's a bad thing. The industry isn't dying. Video games are going away.
Video games are bigger and better than ever. It's mainstream culture. Now it's
the point, the point I think what's happening is that it's transferred,
the pallets of power is transferring from the large walled garden publishers to,
to Indies. It's, it's the Indie era and,
and Indies are the ones who can innovate.
They're the ones who can create cool game mechanics
and make boutique experiences.
They can explore things no one would ever consider
in a large publishing editorial meeting.
You'd be laughed out of the room
if you publish some of the hits that have come out.
If you tried to pitch
concepts that that have proven to be hugely successful recently um uh you would be left
out of the room in any mainstream triple a publishing editorial meeting uh but yet uh
the indies keep on eating the lunch of of uh these big uh houses because the large publishers
don't know how to design games.
Yeah.
People, you know, the public does.
Yeah.
Phil, absolutely agree.
I love this take.
And look, I don't want to see anyone
lose their lunch,
but if they're going to eat
a healthier lunch,
I might be for it,
especially depending on the individual.
And I think that's basically
what's
happening here like we're talking about you know a lot of people losing their jobs right now
in the developer cycle because of this but i do believe they are going to find like jobs you know
like some of these things happen for a reason and some of these developers like just look at what
happened with sony concord like some of these developers build a game with, let's be honest here,
it was essentially a carbon copy
of a game that's already been out there.
And you'll sit there building this thing.
And I can't believe that you,
or at least a handful of those developers,
wouldn't be like, you know what?
Be nice to build something unique
and like really have a go at this.
And I do think that's where we're going.
We're just going, we're going to a point in time where we're going to see more of these games succeed but we're just
going to see a bigger pool of games to choose from and i hope that's where we're going on this
because yeah definitely definitely excited if that is the case murray i know you we do have you up on
stage i know last time the hand raise function was a little difficult and spaces can be a little boogie. So I want to throw the mic over to you here and ask if you have any
further takes on why indie games seem to be able to be so much more creative than these bigger
studios. But also, why are they succeeding right now? Because they've always been more creative,
right? But now they seem to be just hitting the limelight more and more.
Yeah, hi. Can you hear me all right?
Yeah, you're coming through crystal clear.
Yeah, brilliant.
Yeah, look, I mean, I think there's a couple of things that I would sort of point out.
The first is, look, I don't come from a developer sort of heritage,
so I'm not a coder.
I have no idea really how to make a game.
And Phil will probably shoot me for saying this, a sort of heritage so i'm not a coder i i have no idea really how to make a game but and phil will
probably shoot me for saying this but i suspect the part of the the reason that indies have really
taken off is i don't think it's probably ever been easier to make a game for someone who's got some
level of technical skill to make something that is actually not just um you know a level or you
know a design of some kind of creature or something,
but actually make a fully-fledged game.
And not only make a game, I think the tools are now really available
for developers at all levels to be able to publish it very simply
across multiple platforms, be that mobile, PC,
maybe less so on console, I think, but certainly PC and mobile.
So I think the ability for people to make,
create, and then publish their games is never probably been easier, which is why I think
indies have grown, you know, really, really well. And you look at examples like, I don't know,
Bilatro, you know, single developer making, you know, indie hit of last year,
millions and millions of pounds, you know, made significant revenue off the back of it.
And sometimes it's easy to look at these one-off examples.
Even Minecraft back in the day was an indie development game
that's now a mega hit.
But anyway, I think it's partly the ease of development,
ease of publishing, but also I think just the nature now
of kind of social networks, this idea of being able to build an
atomic network around, you know, a core group of people who really, really love things. And they
spread that in their networks into broader networks that just suddenly snowballs these
kind of indie, they may, they may even be the most creative games ever, you know, totally unique
experiences. But nonetheless, they can somehow capture the imagination
of consumers in a way that is not very easy to do
if you're a massive big publisher
with established processes and ways of working.
So anyway, there's just a couple of observations
that I've thought, ease of development, ease of publishing
and just building networks quite simply in the world of social media. Yeah, great take, Morian. Yeah, look, AI and a lot of
development does seem to be under a huge period of innovation right now. It's definitely something
that's super exciting for, I think, a lot of builders and a lot of creatives as well. You know,
people who didn't quite get the skill set, couldn't get themselves there from a coding
side, a development side, but now, like, at least can start conceptualizing and then hopefully still
bringing developers along for the journey once that conceptual, like, piece is ready and, you
know, needs that developer magic that I still think is required.
Jack, you also know I also like a little bit of
a counterbalance we have to remember also that there are i don't know thousands possibly hundreds
of thousands of indie games that come out every year and never see the light of day so it's not
as though every single indie game is a massive hit and but then again you may not you know you
may make a hundred few hundred bucks doing that you may make a few thousand. It may not make you retire to Barbados and live the rest of your life
sipping gin martinis on the beach.
But anyway, there's a kind of balance here to be struck on success.
What does success look like?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's completely true.
And to me, I would actually relate that back to the crypto space a little bit.
And I'll tell you why.
Because I think, let's just look at competitive gaming, for example.
If you want to be a competitive gamer right now,
the one road to success really is like,
and when we talk about potentially retiring to an island
and sipping Mai Tais or pina coladas, whatever your preference,
that requires esports level
gaming and you know we're talking about the one percent of the one percent who actually earn that
sort of money but i do think what we're seeing with indie games is definitely not the retirement
like the huge huge successes across the board but those games that are getting to that level of success which is higher than ever are giving
the green light for gamers and indie developers to just give it a shot and honestly i think for me
like this this again might be a very biased take but i think for me just like where the crypto space
helps traditional gamers you know get airdrops get liquidity get tokens in a way that look they're
not going to retire off them but they don't have to be the one percent of the one percent to earn
from them because it really is that broken up right now it's like a lottery system like it's
one to two winners and everybody else just fully loses like there's no like increments right now
and i think that like distribution is changing with
crypto you're looking at gamers being able to earn and maybe you know not have to do an entry
level job maybe they can get there if they put enough hours into it and i think that's what
we're talking about with indie games right now is we do still have those major successes look at
pal world right now i'm pretty sure unless i had a fever dream that nintendo just uh confirmed very recently that they were gonna allow pal
world onto their platform which is kind of crazy i could be wrong that could be out of context
please someone fact check me on that but regardless it's making millions millions and
millions and i do think indie games even if you end up, and I'm doing quotation marks
here, failing, as long as you're still in a job, or you can still go on to the next thing, and
you've been able to pay your bills. Okay, yes, it'd be great if you did make all that money,
but at least you're doing something you love, right? And at least you're able to pay the bills.
I think that's the first level. Then let's get to the 15 million and that can take a lifetime. Look, fantastic start to the conversation today. Absolutely love the takes
on stage. I just referenced Palworld and I would love to open this up to our guest speakers right
now. Are there any examples and feel free to dive into Palworld as an example as well, because it
really is like sort of the indie game right now
that's taken a lot of attention away from the space.
But are there any case studies,
are there any examples of specific indie games
that you guys are looking up to
as like, this is the end goal?
This is what real success in indie gaming looks like.
Is there any examples that you guys are really excited about
what they've
done and hopefully what that would mean for the future of everything that we're building up on
this stage ryan your hand came back up for a second set of jack points love to see it might go
to you well personally i make a shooting game but my heart and soul exists in mmORPGs. And I believe MMORPGs are the greatest use case for Web3. That's what
got me here today, made me bullish on the space in general. I'm incredibly excited in Cambria.
And full transparency, I'm an investor in the product, an advisor as well, but it's only because
I'm so goddamn bullish on this team and their vision. Cambria is this Web3 MMORPG.
They support tens of thousands of concurrent players, still very early.
They haven't released their full public game yet.
You know, they still run playtests every couple of months.
But this game is everything that I ever loved about RuneScape,
paired with all of the best elements of Web3 truly getting paid for
the time I spend grinding my skills and playing this game and they do such an incredible job
traditionally you look at you know an MMO is an incredibly complex game and usually when it comes
to complex games people look at this they get overwhelmed overwhelmed, and they say, not for me, buddy. But despite the
complexity that comes alongside this title, they have such a fantastic UX, such a fantastic set of
guidelines and community that reduces the friction that truly anybody could really hop in and play
this game. And whether you're someone who likes to adventure or level or just, you know, manipulate the marketplace to make money, whether you're the Web3 investor, the grinder, but the audience member and the content creator
and the game investor and every single profile that you find in between these core identities.
And that's how we design.
That's how Cambria designs and why I'm so goddamn bullish on these guys.
I'm bullish on you, Ryan.
Like you're exactly the level that I need when I'm hearing from builders
in this space. I need that level of energy because it means you are so excited about what
you're building. And that makes me excited about what you're building as well. So absolutely,
GG's. And yeah, definitely excited to see what you guys are cooking up.
Castle, I'd love actually to throw the mic over to you guys for a
second and talk a little bit about cthulhu universe because phil asked this question earlier on and i
think you know phil will kill both me and murray at this stage phil's killing a lot of people on
stage right now if i didn't get back to you on this so i've got a two part for you castle one
is tell me a little bit more about cthulhu universe and what what you guys are
excited about building on that side and b is are there any indie games that have inspired you in
terms of that reference point on what you're building today well cool thank you thank you
um hi everyone so excited and honored to be invited here. Great opportunity. I am Tom, co-founder and CEO of
an indie Web3 gaming studio NitroLab. We are developing our first flagship title
called Casio. It is a Web3 free-to-play, turn-based RPG game on mobile and we are
currently building with Aptos,
you know, our super partner to enhance and supercharge
and effortless experience for both Web2
and Web3 games worldwide.
You know, our game is live and, you know,
short launch starting from January this year.
This is a background.
And get back to, you you know the topic and you know
the discussion um by different dimension I am in the point of view I
think um you know such as like because of the flexibility and ability of
integrate quickly in you know we were talking about Indy and and the
development as a small indie studio.
And some of my background, I was the publisher,
I mean, publishing director at ByteDance,
you mean the TikTok gaming department.
So I knew how hard it was for, you know,
games to be developed and there was no room for fairness.
On the other hand, at National Lab, our small indie team integrated really fast on our new creative ideas. And we test different ideas quickly with our super important community, our fans, their feedback.
It makes innovation relatively easily for us
every day you know by the other hand I think the big challenge come from
knowing what you are you know innovating and you know how come why for different
reason to build a better games, especially at indie perspective. For an indie team that doesn't figure this out,
then they are innovating for nobody.
We have to really know what we are looking for for the current market
and brand-cat innovation for what kind of potential user.
For example, unlike our game Casio, our indie title, as an example,
we are innovating the quality experience of turn-based RPG games with 3D access to provide
an immersive experience. Because the leaders of the market start or fall behind tech i mean the
technology and players from get better so the the player want to play more high quality games
yep amazing stuff thank you so much for sharing and yeah look really really excited to dive
further into why indie games are succeeding and why our builders up on stage are so excited about it too look listeners if you're enjoying
this one likes retweets and follows they're the free trifecta of just showing your support for
the people up on stage right now especially follow everreach games who do put this on the
regular so you will get alpha when these shows are popping up on your screen um i guess
the the next big question for me is what about the budgets in here like what why with a smaller
budget are these games succeeding but i guess the specific question i have is you know can this
continue you know is this a long or short term thing here? Are we seeing
indie games succeed right now because they have found a moment that they can capture that the
big studios cannot? Or is this actually more short term where yes, they are succeeding right now,
but they do not have the budget to continue to compete if some of these triple a
studios and these huge studios with huge budgets decide oh that's the roadmap let's just sort of
break down some of our bigger teams and start building out these games and following what
these other people are doing this is this is my big question i think we had a couple of hands
raised there but um x is bugged out So if I can get a wave from anybody
who does want to come in on this one.
Oh, OP Games and Phil.
I think I see them now.
So yeah, let's get the mic over to OP Games first
and then we'll hear from Phil on this one.
Yeah, I thought Phil raised his hand first.
But anyway, I think one of the things
that we kind of have to remember
about what's going on right now is that, like, yes, it's true.
Indie games and indie game developers are is having its moment.
And it's leading because of, you know, a lot of different points.
I think Murray, I think, was the person who kind of, like, pointed out a lot of, like, really good things about a confluence of events that are kind of like in favor of indies
right now specifically for example how tech is making it easier for indie game developers to
build but we have to remember that this indie game developers are still like a one-man team or a two-man
team for example and so there's still a lot of like things that they need to do for themselves
so they're the marketer the developer they're they're basically everything rolled into one
person but one of the things that allowed
them to actually succeed right now is unlike before where publishers are the moat, and when
I'm saying publisher, people like me who was also an ex-publisher, I don't normally advocate for
independent game developers because of the fact that it's a very small team. I'm not sure if I
can rely on them if I say, for example, I have a Google Play app for Christmas and I want them to
do something for me. I'm not sure if they can deliver that. But now,
you know, with the rise of social media, for example, indie game devs can advocate for
themselves. They have access to YouTube and to Google Play Store and the App Store, for example,
as far as like this development is concerned. Back in the days, only publishers are able to
actually get in touch with
the BBs of the app stores so that they can get their games featured, which drives a lot of
organic users. But now they're more open to individuals who can go ahead and showcase a good
game and make it something that can be showcased in the app stores. So these things, even though
it's a confluence of good things,
you know, independent game developers are still struggling, right?
You know, we run a community of about 3,000 independent game devs
over at OP Guild.
Not so creative, though.
You can just like, okay, just name it OP for anything.
But one of the things that we did was run a survey last year,
and about 60% of these guys are still earning about $500 or less for all of their games, which is published in whatever platforms, Poki, Crazy Games, YouTube, at least now, independent game developers are able to
bank on newer technologies, specifically AI, for example, which some of them hate, some of them
love, because it kind of extends their capacity and ability to create things. And I think that's
a good thing for them, because now you can one shot a game, or you know there's you know you can vibe code and kind of like make
insane creative games that doesn't really care whether it's going to make money or not it's just
really all about the vibe and it's also really about whether the game is fun for the players or
not so I think there's still it's still going to be a process there's still more at stake here
but at the very least right now things are in favor of the independent game developers and hopefully everybody can capitalize on that because
as murray said like you know it's not all roses and butterflies for every indies out there um and
so hopefully we get to extend that to more people within the space yeah absolutely great take really
really love this like balance conversation that we're able
to have here phil your hand was raised i think i've just seen castile with their hand raised
as well so let's get the mic over to phil and then to castle uh thanks uh i i think i i was
so enraptured by the uh last speaker that I forgot the original question that you asked. Yeah, no, all good,
Phil. I can go through it, which is
TLDR of the question
is, aren't AAA games just
going to realize what indie games are doing
and then throw a bunch of money at it and then
push indie games out
again? Is the success
really painting a picture of
the long-term future, or is this just
a short-term thing
that eventually is just going to be capitalized on
from the big guys who've got all the money?
Well, I think this is a permanent change.
As Murray correctly pointed out,
the democratization of game development
is a huge factor in people being able to attempt development
in the first place.
That means that my large publisher house
with only six to 12 teams
is competing against literally thousands
of small independent teams,
of which only 10% have to be successful to eat my lunch.
So, you know, we're dealing with economies of scale here, but we're also dealing with the democratization of publishing with, you know, with Valve being the pioneer in digital,
being the pioneer in digital, the digital storefront pioneer,
allowing independence teams to get a good deal on the publishing side and distribution.
The visibility that Valve gives them and other online stores
also takes away from the large publisher advantage that they've enjoyed.
So when you don't have the publishing advantage anymore,
you don't have the technology advantage anymore, and you certainly don't have the
innovation advantage, and you're no longer delivering on your traditional promise of good production value and regular content updates,
et cetera, then what exactly do you bring to the market?
I think the answer is already being felt.
And I don't see this ever going back to the big cats,
the big publishers having the monopoly.
I don't see that ever going back.
Yeah, I hope you're right, Phil.
I think it makes tons of sense when you look at how these guys are operated
and how bloated they become.
There's always going to be a smaller, more nimble team
who are going to come for that lunch eventually.
And I think it just took the consumers,
which are the gamers, to really understand the value.
I think they get it now.
I think that's why we're seeing so much success
within these indie games.
Even though there's still tons not succeeding,
more games than ever are succeeding in that indie world,
in my opinion.
Castle, your hand was raised.
Would love to
hear your take on this yeah thanks jack um you know absolutely agree with phil and you know um
all gas you know your ideas but as as i'm high perspective um in my opinion i i think budget for all sorts of things from the gaming industry, including the development,
marketing, and including operations sort of things.
Again, for gaming industry, the most expensive part is the cost of labor.
I mean, the manpower in the team, right? You need a talent team to make games.
As founder and co-founders,
we need to manage the resources wisely in order to succeed.
By the other hand, in reality, I think creativity
can be fulfilled no matter what the budget is, the creativity, the ideas, the great ideas,
objections sort of things. First, you can always find cheaper ways to carry out the creativity.
For example, like the free tools, the free resources supporting.
Secondary, Game Jam, a great example for low or zero budget for creativity.
Somehow you see so many good gaming ideas coming out from Game Jam.
But in the end, making game is a team sport is a teamwork steps um to to reach
out um your business goal and target you you can not only have creativity and you need the right
people you know the budget management and execution is the overall management steps
budget management and execution is the overall management stuff yeah thank you amazing take and
again love the context that we're providing on the show today and massive shout out to all of
our guest speakers listeners if you're enjoying this one we're getting close to time so any likes
and retweets that haven't happened yet if you are enjoying the show get them out there get that
support in for our speakers today um look, to try and put a bow on the
conversation that we're having today, there's a couple of final questions I have. I think the
first one is if we're all in agreement that this is a consistent change, this is a change,
this is a moment of disruption that there's no going back from. We're just going to continue
to see this develop where does that
take us you know what what in the term in the long term or at least in the sort of medium future term
does this all mean that indie games are finding ways to succeed more what does it mean for the
gamers what does it mean for the developers and then i think finally where does it all turn out
like what exact future are we expecting to see
when these games and these gamers
see more indie games hitting them
and continuing to succeed?
What does that future look like?
Oh, we've got Murray with the hand raised.
Murray, over to you.
There we go. Yeah, look, look i mean for gamers it's going to be brilliant because there'll probably be more choice than ever before i think that will not only be just choice for
the sake of choice it'll be good quality innovative high quality choice for gamers um so i look i think for for the broad gaming community
it'd be brilliant and i think for you know for the industry generally it'll be just an opportunity
to grow even further i just also again putting a little bit of balance on to the thing is you know
recent research that i've read is that it's actually, it's probably only 10%,
if that, of the full gaming audience really play a wide variety of different types of games. I mean,
most people, as we know, just stick with what they've got. They love their Fortnite and they'll
play that all the time or they'll play their live service game that they've invested hundreds of
hours into. And yes yes the idea of indie games
around the edges allows them to experiment and try new things um but overall i just think the
the opportunity that the indies offer the the broader gaming industry is overwhelmingly good
and positive so i'm all for it i'm looking forward to it yeah me too me too definitely just want look just give me funner games give me more of them
couldn't be happier op games your hands raised throwing the mic over to you um yeah i mean i
think um um my expectation is not a lot though like but i do feel that at the very least this
time around within the game developers, specifically having agency
in terms of what they can do with their games,
I think we can expect more innovative games, newer genre,
for example, and hopefully more fun games.
Because I think over the last couple of years,
it was stifled by publishers requesting these game developers
to create one or two types of games,
just because the flywheel there has already been perfected to make money.
And so hopefully this time around, we get something better, more fun,
more, I would say, irreverent,
which I think is one of the fortes of independent game developers.
Again, definitely, definitely agree.
I cannot wait to see what this future does actually
shake out for us and can't wait to see what you guys are cooking up as well with your games
um let me look let me think could indie driven innovation disrupt major gaming trends going
forward then is there any current games that we're seeing right now that are going to be disrupted
in the long term because for me
you know you've got you've got a subset of games and game experiences that you can basically expect
is going to take over honestly the whole industry for a month or two you know you're going to see
a specific game that comes out in a certain field your call of duties your elden rings
and your cyber punks and then people are
just going to be hyper focused on them you're obviously grand theft autos for this year
is that going to change are we going to see more like sort of sub sectors of these different games
launched where you can't really just put them into a single bucket like you can do right now
or is this all going to just you know is it is the industry realistically still going to be
pretty similar even with indie game success nicholas your hands come up would love to throw the mic over
to you i think indies are at the moment uh changing a lot of narrative and and gaming designs and uh
one of the the last example i have in mind is Kingdom Come of Deliverance 2.
Indeed, devs are kind of pioneering nonlinear storytelling if we focus on narrative design.
And maybe the standards will change among AAA studios with these kind of initiatives.
At the same time, also, I think the integration of AI tech
and, you know, as indie gaming studios,
we want to innovate and we want to integrate more tech
than some studios, bigger studios,
and integrating, you know, such smart tools into titles will potentially
also incentivize bigger ones to do the same.
So I think indie-driven innovation is currently changing the major gaming trends um and they they will they will affect how bigger gaming studios triple
a gaming studios are are approaching their their design their narrative their their tech
structuration structure so yeah i think i think the answer is yes
awesome stuff and yeah i i do agree and look what a great conversation we've had today
we are getting really close to time, though.
We're basically hitting the 50-minute mark,
and we're trying to play this one out with a banger before the five minutes.
So, Nicholas, or any of the members of Everreach team,
are there any updates?
Are there any milestones?
Is there anything at all that you'd like to share with us
before we do close out the show?
And we can always get to multiple hands as well.
So if you guys all want to come in with your certain areas of expertise,
what you're building out right now, that's also really cool.
We have time for that.
So Nicholas, I'll give the mic over to you first
and then Phil or Maury, if you do have anything to add on,
just get that hand in the air and I'll get the mic over to you next.
Thanks a lot, Jack.
And thanks everyone for attending the show.
Maybe I can give a bit of explanation on what we are doing in a nutshell for everyone.
We have been working for the last three years on this project and we have two consumer-facing
products. The first one is a game. It's a co-op PV game named Revenge. Revenge is at the moment
top 12 worldwide on Epic Games Store in terms of wishlists,
thanks to Marin, the whole marketing team.
And the second consumer-facing product, in fact, it's a tech.
It's a custom Twitch API that allows any spectator to influence a live game in every way you can imagine.
Sending resources, sending airstrikes, unlocking some doors, both, etc.
So what we are going after, it's the crowd play.
It's a kind of new interactive segment among the gaming space.
And yeah, currently polishing the game. We are also, you know, trying to time the market to launch the token in a good environment.
At the moment, in fact, it's been three years we are working on this project and 2025 is the year of the go live we launched products so so quite exciting time and yeah Murray and and Phil
are working both on the marketing and and the design so if you want to take the lead on some
marketing strategies Murray it could be of interest for for everyone yeah so very briefly
we're building well we've got a tight- tight knit, pretty robust community already, which we
are engaging with and trying to grow as well.
So we've got some plans around growing our social media footprint.
We're looking to engage particularly on TikTok and YouTube with short form video in the short
term.
We're in the very final stages of a brand new trailer.
So this is going to be a great way of setting out the background to revenge,
why the whole game exists and how you play it.
So more to come very soon on that.
So a trailer which will lead us into our kind of pre-alpha campaign as we go live,
probably in the next few months.
So, yeah, there's a lot to do, lot to get on with but it all kicks off with a
Twitch partnership announcement new trailer and activity around our tick-tock and YouTube activity
Awesome stuff and Phil do you want to give us a little dev update and then we'll close this one out?
Well, we keep on polishing,
working on the extension, the Twitch extension.
There's a lot of user ease of use,
UX improvements that have been done.
We've done a lot of work on audio.
There's a big UX improvement,
which is basically polishing.
The core is there.
The tweaks are mainly focused on the sound,
and that's been a massive, massive game changer
in terms of what it looks like, how it plays.
It's something that we really couldn't focus on before.
But we've had the time to finally pretty much exclusively look at. a new sound director, audio director, who has done amazing things to improve the overall experience.
So it's looking really good.
Awesome stuff, Phil.
And look, that is all we have time for today.
So a massive shout out to all of our speakers,
to OP Games, to Castle, to Murray, to Phil, to Nicholas,
and everyone else who hopped up on stage with us today.
And thank you to all of our listeners who've tuned in as well.
You guys are why we get to put these on.
So a massive, massive shout out to all of our listeners
for all the support.
And we're going to play this one out now. Thank you. I'll ride on you sooner than you know A little out of center that I'm out of two
Just kicking this girl on the avenue
But I don't like it
It's easy once you know how it's done
You can't stop now, it's already begun
You feel it.
Host
Everreach Labs
from
EVER
