oh god oh jeez louise um i wonder if you can hear me
okay great classic classic Twitter spaces just making it difficult on
everybody see will is here Kane is here it's just
frustrating because a bunch of people you know set their reminders and yeah
that's the way she goes didn't you hear me all good yeah loud and clear okay
sweet yeah that's not ideal where did that happened yeah it just wouldn't let
me might just be us yeah it's your fault it's the devs do something it's my oh
sorry I mean it might just be us in the space oh sorry hey guys cool so yeah
sorry you're saying you can't actually start the live spaces for some reason
yeah well I tried via the Oculus account like for the original link and it just
kept saying you know unable to start and I tried a bunch of times and it just
wouldn't let me start it and our old event is just still there sitting there
so yeah sorry about that but maybe suddenly if you want to just like throw
some some booster tweets out and just say hey you know this is the link by the
way I'm sure people will see it and but yeah not ideal that's okay we push
through we move forward exactly it might have something to do I'm glad that you
can all hear me I did a test space on Sunburner account before but I just got
a new mic my phone because now I'm posting all these spaces like I just got
this new mic you on has defeated me with the non desktop space hosting I'm like
all the all the spaces I would host on my phone I've listened back and it
sounds like you know a tin can with a string going into my phone because I'm
using these awful headphones yeah so I finally got this this new mic and so I
don't know maybe that had something to do with it but yeah I got my 17th Apple
product talk about talk about fragmentation am I right my Apple
products are not very composable it's pretty annoying preach yeah yeah so what
you can't host a space I want you to use the vision pro that's why I worked all
the other classic yeah no you can't host a space on a desktop or via speaker like
you can listen on a computer but you can't like participate which is a real
oversight and it leads to a bunch of crappy audio it's pretty sad when you um
when you're talking freely like on the internet and then like someone tells you
your mic sounds like shit you didn't even realize yeah yeah oh sorry I didn't
catch that last five minutes what did you say yeah just like speaking with
confidence yeah who knows I didn't even know how I sound now I got AirPods in
she and they're pretty good but I should probably get myself a mic too oh yeah you
so great I don't even have I have the old cord I'm a I'm a Neanderthal Wow
okay great vintage welcome guys welcome everyone thanks for joining us I'm happy
you found the new link I'm going to share this in every group chat that I'm
in start spamming everyone we'll get started in a minute or two here I'll
just give people a bit of leeway to find their way
all right all right everybody ready I think we can get started flood this
through flood the recording through all the channels afterwards so yeah let's
let's jump into it so welcome everyone welcome to the optimist podcast so we
are a media platform that focuses exclusively on optimism and super chain
networks alike we run a weekly newsletter and a podcast which you're
listening to now and for the podcast we are partnered with Revolo Intel who
provides curated written notes following each episode so the link to
all of our content can be found in our bio this week I'm extremely excited and
grateful okay I'm back extremely excited and and grateful to be talking to co-
founders Will and Cain for an episode devoted to internex which is the app
that they have been building so welcome guys thank you so much for coming on and
we'll just start with the usual thank you so I'll yell just I'll just ask you
both for a brief introduction to yourselves and how you find your way to
to working on infinex so will why don't we start with you and then Cain can
follow up yeah absolutely I was working down in Melbourne as a quant
researcher in the trading space and yeah I met Cain to talk about
entrepreneurship actually and he was looking for an analyst for his family
office so he convinced me to move up to Sydney about a year later so that was
the end of 2022 and then yes I was working for Cain's family office doing
some trading and kind of like sitting on the bench looking around for stuff to
do like an entrepreneur in residence and then yeah one day Cain had this crazy
idea to do this infinex thing and so we just jumped in straight on from there
that was in like July last year we announced around ECC time and just been
head down since then awesome awesome more Australian dudes a lot of Aussies
and crypto I've noticed yeah everyone knows everyone there's like one degree
of separation but it's a cool crew yeah oh yeah Cain hello lovely to speak with
you I'm sure there's a lot of people familiar with you but do you want to
just introduce yourself briefly yeah so I found it synthetics a while ago now
back in the Dark Ages 3d5 and I got to like the middle of last year I think it
was it was May I'd taken a break at the end of 2022 right at the time that I
hired Will I kind of rubbed him actually for a few months and I was like actually
hang out with these other guys in my family office for a while and and so I
came back in like Jan Feb and and started you know giving my toes back
into crypto and seeing you know what things look like and by the time I got
to May I was like wow okay you know synthetics perps v2 had launched in
December and by May it was pretty obvious that they were as good in terms
of like you know execution capability as what you could get on the centralized
exchange obviously there's some trade-offs but you know I felt like we
were finally there in terms of future parity and so my view was like okay well
if you know we've had these things out for five months like why are we not
getting more traction wire where more people not migrating over from
centralized exchanges you know especially given how soon after the FDX
blow-up this was and and the conclusion that I came to was that it was actually
a UX issue it was no longer a tech issue or a platform issue or you know
or some kind of underlying architecture it was actually just the UX and so I had
this idea to basically build a centralized wrapper on top of this
decentralized execution engine and that was the first version of infinex and
then thankfully will came in and was like you know what we actually don't
need to make it centralized we can make it decentralized and it kind of took off
from there awesome awesome yeah that was really good sort of segue into what
my first question was I wanted to start this discussion off by sort of setting
the stage for infinex and talking through some of the progressions or I
guess digressions that we've seen in DeFi over the past year or more that led
to the idea for infinex and its inception and you kind of touched on
some of it there I know the really big topics and it's easy to get carried
away and burn an hour but I just want to give some context for the listeners and
I'll do my best to keep the conversation moving leave enough time for us to get
into the details of infinex so I guess with that my first question would be you
know I've seen a lot of growth in DeFi this year but from my perspective a lot
of like the vast majority of it has been on the back end so there's been a
lot of technical advancements but as a newcomer entering space it's it's like
arguably harder than it's ever been and there's just so much going on and the
complexity is kind of getting a little bit you know out of control or it's
moving faster than then the front-end UX stuff is catching up so do you see this
this problem like across the entire space you mentioned it in the context
of synthetics but you know how much of the technical advancements have been
made how much has it sort of come at the cost of UX and actually onboarding
people so either one of you can take that I'll pick on someone if you need me
I have a quick response to that I think which is like bear markets are for
building and builders are not the most amazing that comes to UX typically in
crypto and so I think you know we've built some amazing tech and infrastructure
over the last you know 18 months two years whatever whatever it's been but
crypto becomes very insular during a bear market the people who are left are
you know deep crypto believers I think this bear market has been better than
previous bear markets where it really was just like building you know
protocols and backing infrastructure with like very little effort towards
front-ends so I think we've done a better job this bear market but like
it's just a classic kind of bear market problem of you know everyone sort of
hunkers down and starts trying to build the coolest tech that they can I think
we are getting better but you know this I still see funny stuff like I was
talking to Will the other day and you know we were discussing barcaster and
onboarding process and he was like no it's pretty good and then I was like
alright let me try this and I tried when I was like oh like it's a low bar for
crypto right like I think I think Will's been kind of crypto-pilled a little bit
and so you know my view is that like it's really cool tech and I think it's
amazing and I think that I want to see a bunch of people integrate it but the UX
is still not there not even in the interface but like the onboarding
process I think again it's just a bear market problem I think as we start to
come out of the bear market people will turn up who are thinking more about
adoption but I think we've seen that shift over the last like you know three
six months and certainly from an infinite perspective that's what we're
thinking about is an option yeah nice that's that's a good perspective I got
I'm definitely I'm like class of like late 2020 I guess so that sort of like
the cycle perspective is not as as clear to me but that's that's a good point
well did you have anything to add there yeah like I think the cool thing about
crypto geo this like funding come in and people run all these different sort of
experiments through the bear market like you know very like academic
experiments and you kind of just get to see like who wins at the end and then
like if you're building at the end of the bear market you can sort of just
cherry-pick like the best ideas I think in the trading space the folks who have
done really well are the ones who just sort of started with user experience and
worked backwards like you know synthetics and dy dx for example like
famously took a different path and we can see how that worked out like dy dx
has done really well just by saying okay like what do we have to do here like
what do we have to centralize in order to make a good user experience and it's
actually interesting I'm looking at the data yesterday on like liquidity in dy
dx order book versus like the AMM you know on on synthetics if you're trading
on coin tar and the liquidity is a lot better on on the AMM like and you think
liquidity is the thing that traders like care the most about right if
there's not liquidity won't be there but dy dx is killing it in terms of volume
in the decentralized space so like you know I think we've maybe underrated the
power of a good user experience because you know nothing really compared to that
for a long time and it's just really obvious like the one who sits in the
middle between like a quenter and the finance is also sitting in the middle in
terms of volume and revenue and success so yeah like I wouldn't like you know
say that like everyone's been doing the wrong thing by doing all these
experiments but it's just a timing thing like you come to the end of it you can
learn from those experiments and start to like pull it all together and you
know the experiments are needed in order to like highlight the tech that you could
use to actually take on a centralized exchange which I think's where we're at
now and that's coming in to do yeah nice yeah and using sort of dy dx as
like an analogy this extends to like chains as well right and like L2s this
year have gone through a lot of like there's so many L2s coming up every it
seems like every week it's like so hard to keep up and the composability is sort
of thesis that they are sort of built around is you know is something to come
I think but it's we've seen a lot of sort of fragmentation as all these new
L2s pop up whereas you have dy dx building their own app chain and being
able to scale that way and then just like having really good UX and
incentives and people going there even though the trading engine on on other
DEXs or centralized exchanges are sort of on the same level or better the fact
that they can scale on their own chain has brought them a lot of success
short-term success at least so yeah how do you see this fragmentation
across L2s and sort of the usership across the ethereum ecosystem and yeah
you know do you think these growing pains have been necessary for the long
term I guess how does your your L2 thesis how has it grown over the past
year or two just out of that okay
Bueller yeah yeah sorry just just thinking about how to respond to that
you know I think we've seen a proliferation of of L2s and even app
chains and I think that's that I think that's only going to you know continue
this year you know through to the end of 2024 the big question in my mind around
that and and I think dy dx is sort of answered this a little bit right I was
skeptical that they were going to be able to get people to migrate you know
from from I think they've done this on three times now right they've they've
gotten people to hop from different networks you know ethereum to stockware
to now cosmos and like in principle you would say that's a hard thing to do in
crypto right like there's not a lot of good examples of migrations where you
know a big community and a bunch of users have kind of moved from network to
network like that but I think that one of the things they do quite well is they
sort of abstract away the network that you're on right like that's the the
thing that kind of allows them to move their infrastructure and I mean if you
think about a web to you know and they take a very web to you know SF startup
approach to life I think right but if you think about a web to startup or you
know or company they may upgrade the back-end infrastructure of their product
you know not necessarily regularly but you know they could do major upgrades
and and you know change out hardware change out software change out the
infrastructure they're using and from a user perspective you don't even see that
because they've abstracted away the infrastructure right like it would be it
would be super weird if you know like a web to or even like a c5 business right
it'd be super weird if finance was like hey we're swapping out our you know
database engine and everyone was like up on arms and saying oh we're leaving if
they do this right no one cares what database engine you know finance uses
they care about the end end user experience and so I think that that's
gonna be a big part of this right everyone is worried about this
proliferation of L2s and different chains and fragmentation and what have
you but I think the key thing is going to be you know who is able to step in
and abstract away all of those networks and abstract away the complexity of them
and just let users access the things that they want that that is the kind of
end goal if you know whoever does that well I think is going to do very well in
this cycle yeah well said I had a really good segue into bringing infinex
further into the conversation well did you do you want to add anything there
before I move on no that was very spot-on and yeah indeed infinex it is
a good segue yeah yeah so speaking of abstracting a lot of these
difficulties and sort of siloing tell me about infinex and I feel like the
motivation behind the the protocol was just spelled out pretty well there so
can you can you tell me about what infinex is as an introduction and and
why why it's such a huge value add to to the space yeah so like I mentioned like
we we sort of start out with this idea of like we're just going to build this
centralized exchange on top of purpose be three like we don't care like we're
just gonna you know clearly the UX is what people care about and that's what
they want and we're just going to give it to them like sacrifice whatever it
takes and so like we we basically wanted to like you know overcome those UX
barriers like trading on Pepsi 2 you've got to like move over to optimism you've
got to like get SUSD you've obviously got to understand how wallets and things
work and in comparison to like a Binance that just none of those things are true
you just make an account send money to it and you start trading so we wanted
to replicate that whole user experience and we're like yeah okay so we're gonna
have to run like a server that has like an auth you know provider attached to
it and some trusted layer in the middle we're gonna have to like pass messages
between different blockchains if we want to let people deposit from from
different chains and not go to optimism but yeah so we ran around like
figuring out how to do that and we found like I said at the end of the bear
market all these people have run these really cool experiments and there's
actually new stuff that you just couldn't do before in a decentralized and
trustless way so the account problem has been solved by the lit protocol who
were partnered with they run this basically like trustless gateway between
the blockchain world and the web to account world so you can basically have
these keys that are gated by these off-chain MFA methods arbitrarily and
then you know you write a smart contract that has like an ACL list that you know
is listening for those keys so basically like the security settings page on your
Binance account you can add Google Authenticator SMS code all that sort of
stuff step up your security when you would draw you can do all that on chain
in a smart contract not an app chain just like a regular like on a theorem
which is really cool so like okay that ticks that box we don't need to
centralize there and then the whole like you know passing messages across chains
thing like synthetic has been working with chain link for a while and sort of
struggling to figure out like how to do that in a cost-effective way but we were
introduced to the guys working at wormhole labs and they've been working on
like a bunch of different products that do all sorts of different methods of
passing messages between blockchains and you basically get to a point where you
can you know if you're willing to take the risk of block finality you can
speak to different blockchains as quickly as you like and you can you know
sort of have a sliding scale between how risky you want to be there so you can
you know like you think about like Binance they have this accounting system
in their back end where they've got like you know some guy talking to Bitcoin
some guy talking to ethereum some guy talking to Solana and they're just
reconciling between each other in the database you wind up with the same kind
of thing you have a trusted messenger who's gonna pass messages between the
blockchains and you verify them on one side on the other and yeah you've got
the blueprints to build a Binance that's you know powered by a DeFi rather than
powered by a database so yeah that's that is what the impact is in a nutshell
and just to be a little more visceral you know what we held a really high
standard for how this thing would work from these perspective it has to work
like a centralized exchange like a lot of people are saying that centralized
exchange experience with with like account abstraction and these new tech
that's popping out these days like but you know like you might remember the
friend tech like signing in with Google creating a wallet having to send
ETH to the thing and then and then start using the app like that's a standard
even writing down a seed phrase like you know if you don't have to do that on a
Binance then Infinex is saying you shouldn't have to do that on the next so
we've really sort of upped the ante and put out all the stops on like how to
replicate the exact same experience and do do it in a decentralized way and it's
yeah pretty exciting you could do that now so that's what I mean by all these
experiments this stuff is like we've been working on the bleeding edge of
like three different sort of protocols but haven't really had users yet so like
pulling all that together hasn't been easy but yeah it's gonna be really cool
for the market yeah awesome yeah when I was like when I first started learning
about it and being tuned into what you were building I was like oh my god this
is like this is mass adoption you know I was like this is actually a major step
towards like getting people to use the tech because you forget or I forget as
like a you know pretty long time a very active DeFi user I forget how
complicated all this stuff is and it's like it's all kind of very normal to be
now but I just lose the perspective of someone new coming on and it's like
reinvigorated anytime I try to onboard someone and like I remember I just what
popped in my head was just like oh he left I hope we can get him back okay well
what popped in my head was like several months ago listening to a podcast
episode that you came you were on and you were talking about when you're
trying to onboard someone like you go through the process of trying to get
them to like get into DeFi and create a wall themselves and then eventually just
give up and you know what you should probably just go to finance because
you're just going to unless I can be with you here for like the entire day
you're just gonna like send your money to the wrong address or like you're just
gonna lose everything immediately and that's like still true and anytime I
try and get one of my friends to check it out I like it's so sad I'm just like
you should probably just you know if you want to get me just go to a centralized
exchange and it hurts because it's not DeFi so yeah that's that's like for me
user perspective and from someone who is sometimes talking to people who don't
use crypto infinex seems like a huge step forward so if I can just like
break down what Will was just explaining I hope he can rejoin us so if I go like
infinex is fully fully live fully public I go on and I want to trade all I need
to do is sign up with an email or some sort of web to account do I have to you
know there's no seed phrase do I have to pay any gas I don't have to do any
signing is that right it's just it would be the exact same experience as as as
like coinbase or something is that for the for the normies listening or the
yeah that's that's I'll be impressed if there's normies listening but yeah for
the normies listening yeah that's that is the intent right the intent is to get
as close to a web to experiences as we can and I think the our confidence is
that we can get really close now you know that there might need to be a
couple of things but like the difference in the onboarding process or for
infinex should be like the same sort of differences you would have like
onboarding to like Gmail versus Facebook right like there'll be a couple
of different questions but like fundamentally it's the same experience
right like you're signing into a thing you've got you know using password you
know you have some different things that you need to do to get on board it but
there's nothing where you're like whoa what the hell is this 24 word jumble of
things that I'm supposed to you know etch into a tablet and bury in my
backyard right like there's none of that stuff yeah that's super awesome
well you're back I don't know what happened there but yeah I got this haunted
today now that was weird yeah it's been a little bit yeah yeah it was quite
weird okay so in terms of of onboarding funds into infinex how does that happen
for users so they can create an account but you know presumably they don't have
any money yet so how do they get money into the into the app and is are you
working on like a direct USD to to infinex integration or is that a thing
like how do I how do I get my funds on the on the app in the first place I was
just gonna respond Charles with well how do you get your funds on the finance but
then your point about fiat is a little bit of an asterisk on that one so like
coming from crypto you know imagine like yeah you're onboarding in a finance
you've got some money in a wallet you just like you get that like really cool
drop down I'm just so in love with this user flow I'm so excited that like put
it out you'd get that like drop down with like choose a network choose a
token and you click on it you press generate address and then you get that
like cool QR code that probably like I never know what it does like no one
abused it but you know it looks like a centralized exchange and then you can
send money to that address and then like after some time you know when it's
confirmed on change it'll appear in your account so that's exactly how it's
gonna work with with infinex under the hood there's a smart contract being spun
up that only the user can control with those keys that they've set up and they
just send the money to that address and then you know they've got the money in
the system and they can start trading the fiat side of things is another
another step and we're obviously as a like a decentralized protocol we can't
do fiat directly at least not for now but what you can do is you can partner
with fiat providers who do the you know the KYC on their side and then they you
know just forward the money straight onto the Dow so that's sort of what
we're working on not confirmed yet or like proposed you know through
governance or anything but I think that's something that will like push for
because you know it's probably not a real priority right now while there's a
lot of money on chain that's you know the money that's being used for trading
is predominantly already on chain but as as new entrants come into the space like
it's gonna be important and I think you know I was muted before but I just
wanted to say like that fact that we recommend our friends to use Binance at
the moment is like you know it is really sad we need to make sure that like in
this next cycle when people are coming in we can recommend something that's a
little a little bit safer and still achieves the same result so yeah
InfinX is coming into to to be that provider and yeah I do think fiat's
gonna be a big part of that amazing so so good to hear do you want to can you
tell me what stage of the sort of launch we're at now so I painted a tweet at the
top for anyone looking for their Twitter account and the links that they
can actually check it out so it's it's live on mainnet I believe there's it's
like a small sort of group of testers testing it right now can you can you tell
us about where you're at with launch and and what's to come I think we're in the
question trough of the trough of despair part of the launch right well like you
know it's kind of there and it sort of works and you know there's like some
last-minute things that you didn't you didn't necessarily consider that need to
be rethought before you know you allow a ton of TVL to come in to the app so you
know really at the moment it's about hardening it as much as possible because
we sort of have a strong expectation that once the floodgates were open you
know given some of the campaigns we have around like governance points and stuff
like that you know this I think the council just approved something around
governance points the other day to start incentivizing activity as soon as that
happens and the floodgates open you know we need to ensure that the system is as
hard as possible so I think we're off to like audit number five or something like
that so yeah it's it's just really making making you know everyone's
couple as possible that we're ready to you know start jacking up TVL nice yeah
nice and so it's on mainnet and maybe you could talk a bit about synthetics v3 I
guess so I would I think I'm right in assuming that it's you're going to be on
base and basically you're gonna be following synthetics v3 around is that
correct and is there any room for integrating with with other protocols or
other like how do I phrase this I guess what's the limit for sort of back-end
integration for InfinX as like an aggregator front-end yeah so a bit of a
two-part of there I'll answer the first part and then I can hand it over to Will
so the original idea for InfinX was literally be a better front-end a better
more centralized front-end for synthetics right to onboard people who
were not willing to do DeFi and wanted to you know wanted a centralized
exchange but at least it'll be non-custodial to some extent right so
that was the idea and that idea lasted until I want to say like October of last
year in October of last year it became very obvious that this scope of my
initial vision for InfinX was far too narrow and I think a lot of that came
from Will and some of the other people that that joined the project so I'll let
him speak to like what that kind of grander vision is but yeah it's no
longer just follow synthetics perps around you know like a little kid
brother that's trying to follow their sibling around and have fun with them I
think we've got some bigger plans now synthetics are still our older brother
but when you get to about like 19 years old you start to start to cover your own
path and we're getting a little more mature by the month and yeah so exactly
like so if you're if you're setting out to build a better way to onboard into
synthetics like basically you know a centralized exchange onboarding and
account security and can't rug yourself ability layer we'll call it you know the
UX layer of synthetics perps e3 then what you what you end up having to build
is a system that can deploy a smart contract for someone and have them log
into it and secure it in a way that you would web to without compromising self
custody so just think about that for a sec you've got a smart contract that
someone controls that they don't need to understand like the inner workings of
that's that's the inflection point that we've reached if you can if you can have
that system scale sorry if you can have that system built up in a way where you
can deploy it for for anyone who signed up to impenex you can scale to the
masses because they you know like what the the big upside of something like
finance is like people get crypto without having to understand it and we
don't have that in defy like in any any corner of it and this is the first time
that's been possible so yeah we've got this smart contract that that everyone
can own and then that is simply just connecting straight into synthetics
perpv3 with like an ACL controlling you know you got to sign this message with
the keys in your browser to do X you've got a step up your security to do Y so
that yeah great for synthetics perpv3 but it's like okay what else could you
do with that well you can do that with literally anything you can plug in any
integration you want into into that infinex account and that's the really
exciting thing so the playbook I think for for infinex this year we've spent
this first month of the year like as Kane mentioned like hardening making
sure things are right the mantra I'm saying to myself is platform process and
patterns because we basically want to build this machine that can sort of
meditate on the market listen for what's coming and then you know the next friend
tech comes around within two weeks it's already on infinex and the experiences
is fundamentally better because because of this infrastructure we built to
onboard into synthetics perpv3 so yeah like the grand vision I think one really
easy way to conceptualize it is you're building a decentralized finance finance
has all those tabs up in the top like stake and earn like spot trading perps
trading yeah all these things that they do really like well it's like their
bread and butter we can now start to just plug all that into the infinex
account and do it on chain and then you know ideally though you're not just
competing with Binance neck-and-neck you're doing something that gives you
a competitive advantage of a Binance and I think that's a really interesting
question so it's like if you had if you had Binance built built on a database
and Binance built on DeFi like which features would really bring people
across to the second one and one really good example is like spot trading so if
you think about what people want you know when they're trading spot
especially like degenerate folks they want to trade those longer tail assets
and Binance is just never going to be able to keep up with something built on
DeFi because you know Binance is only ever looking at DeFi and then sort of
copying DeFi right like they're like okay this pairs really interesting it's
getting a lot of traction we're gonna list it you know if they're really spot
on they can organize a market maker and get it listed in like you know a week or
two but like before it was even popular it was already on that second exchange
powered by DeFi it was already on infinex so like that's really cool and
that's the sort of stuff that can bring people across you know and have them
actually switch so that pattern of like DeFi being the source of the innovation
and Binance having to copy if you can cut that loop and sort of jump the queue
then you've actually you've hit escape velocity and you can start to actually
take market share from centralized exchanges so that's the playbook yeah
well well said it's so insane it's so insane it's making me wish like that
what you just said is making me wish I was a trader it's like I'm not I don't
trade I like soccer trading and now I'm like like maybe I should lose all my
money because I really want to try this well Charles it doesn't have to be
trading what do you want we'll integrate something for you yeah this is this is
the thing right like this is the thing that that you know trading is traders are
the most active users right like they're the most addressable users they're the
most likely to be paying attention to the things that they pay attention to
and respond to like market forces right that's why going after traders is is is
you know the obvious first step right you give traders some feature or asset
or leverage or whatever it is you know better marketing system than they have
now they'll move like they're they're very mercenary they understand the
incentives very well they're paying attention to them like they're they're
a very low switching cost cohort of users right other users in DFI are not
that you know they're less likely to be paying attention to things and pop
around and try different different platforms but some of the things we've
already talked about integrating into into infinex are more social things so
you can imagine integrating something like XMTP the messaging protocol to
allow people in the back end to do you know DMS or group chats you can imagine
integrating something like Farcaster as well for more you know social
integrations ENS is an obvious one to allow people to have their own usernames
that are then you know potentially they they use infinex and they get an ENS
name and you know they've got all of this you know this cool stuff that they
then can do with that ENS in terms of you know again messaging people
directly right you just messaged them to their ENS via you know Farcaster or XMTP
or whatever and this is the fundamental advantage that we have as infinex over
Binance or Bybit or you know Coinbase or any centralized exchange is that there
are thousands of engineers doing R&D for us and working on these new
platforms and and new functionality and new protocols that we can just cherry
pick and integrate with minimal effort we don't need to you know you start a
centralized exchange and you want to have a live chat feature okay maybe
there's like an off-the-shelf component that you can integrate you're gonna need
to modify that you're gonna need to you know extend it whatever or maybe you
need to build your own system that's a whole team of engineers to build that
centralized component that also has the poor network effects as well whereas if
you're infinex and you integrate Farcaster you get to pull in the network
effects of you know warp costs and all of these other you know integrations and
and front ends what people have built and just absorb those network effects but
now on board a cohort of users that may not have been comfortable even going
through the arguably easier integration and and onboarding that you know something
like warp cost has for example and so yeah there's just huge advantages in
that you can tap into all of the R&D that's going on in crypto and the
Ethereum ecosystem right now and potentially even in the wider crypto
ecosystem like Solana cosmos etc you know down the road and and get access to
all of those protocols that access to all of that tech and and all that
functionality that's being built it's it's an incredibly powerful force to be
able to tap into yeah yeah absolutely that's yeah I mean I basically I'm too
short-sighted I'm glad that there are people like yourselves that can sort of
envision these types of things because yeah like you're totally able to just
stand on the shoulders of everybody working on the back end which is
literally like every developer in DeFi and it's mutually beneficial like they
they need this they want they don't want to have to deal with you know the other
half of the of the user experience problem so going back to the very first
thing you said which is like you know aggregator sort of aggregator
applications aggregator protocols they're able to just like funnel this all
the underlying applications activity and tech to the to the surface are going to
win and that's becoming increasingly clear to me and I would hope I mean it
sounds like infinex can just do everything but are you are you
forecasting getting some some some help from other teams sort of like with like
I'm imagining just front-end aggregators for every single type of DeFi use case
which you kind of just said but are you expecting more teams to sort of come out
of the woodwork and start doing this stuff I know it's you know there's
probably some technical developments that need to it's not an overnight
process but like are you expecting to see you know this be the standard for
any type of you know borrowing and lending all this anything you know a
vault that earns me 8% which is what I want just that's the infinex standard
being the standard for all applications in DeFi it's not something that you you
foresee the standard on like the UX front you mean yeah in terms of
aggregating you know protocols underneath and sort of abstracting all
the sort of network complexity and all the things that are hard for for
newcomers nowadays yeah I like to think so I think I think once people see what
we mean like we've talked a lot about it for months and months but you've got to
like really just touch it to like see what we're actually talking about like
this is something it hasn't I'm kind of concerned that people are going to think
it's a centralized exchange when they when they log in and secure their
account because it just feels so weird and yeah I think it's people are going
to be like okay and like now it's time to read the governance proposals and
figure out how this thing works and use this model because it's clearly gonna be
like yeah a bit of a game-changer yeah yeah totally okay well we're
approaching an hour here I'll start to wrap it up speaking of governance as I
understand there's no token there's no plan for a token please correct me if
I'm wrong but the SNX folders and synthetics governors are going to be
governing the protocols that is that correct so far they have said we've got
a council of five members and synthetics boat a couple of those seats on with
with directly synthetic debt shares we also did this crazy governance farming
program where we had basically people could connect their wallet and connect
their centralized exchange API keys from like Binance by bit like you know
Mexie all the big centralized exchanges to prove that they trade volume and they
actually earn a stake in voting for our council elections so that governance
points thing is still ongoing and we're gonna do another around of that very
shortly but interestingly as well the Treasury Council seat just announced this
patron and an FT system so there's gonna be some evolution in in terms of
governance I think you know they're basically gonna use this thing to raise
capital for impenex so I don't think at the moment there's any plans for that to
be tied directly to governance but obviously you know there's mechanisms
that are in play and things are gonna evolve pretty quickly so I'd keep an eye
out on that over the next couple of weeks nice nice okay good to know I will
be keeping an eye on it I wish I was keeping an eye on it earlier but oh well
yeah and here is on you pardon your ear is on it now don't stress exactly oh yeah
my entire I'm lying on the you're still early yeah I need people to that's I
need that to be said to me all the time just as like a coat like you get too far
in the weeds and you're like I'm missing everything and there's like you're like
one of like ten people in the world who are like trying to yeah anxiety inducing
in terms of revenue I'm assuming there will be some sort of small fee
structure where does the revenue go for for infinex yeah into a great big pool
of money that the Dow owns yeah we're gonna have incremental fees on top of
the synthetics fees so there's kind of an interesting fee model you've got
synthetic doing it's like a kickback for all the revenue we send there and then
we're gonna take a clip on top as well and that's going to yeah just go into a
big governance control pool and we can figure out what to do with it where the
plan initially is to buy more s and x and stake it because then you earn more
fees you got that positive feedback with there oh yeah that's really smart okay
yeah and then you can just become this massive like LP for synthetics as well
that's really cool okay yes nice very cool let's see what else I'm coming to
the end of the questions I had for you I think we covered quite a lot of it I'll
just say this for us I'll probably say it again but thank you so much for
coming on thank you for your time did you have anything that you wanted to to
mention or one more topic that you wanted to cover before we wrap up uh I
guess just like what we're doing next so the launch plan over the next month is
to open up deposits for infinex we have synthetics isn't quite fully scaled yet
on the perps v3 side they're pretty close they're a bit ahead of us but we
can't just open up the floodgates yet and as I said we're hardening the
training experience so we're gonna open up deposits to begin with and we've got
this giant wait list of folks that want to get in so in order to sort and fill
to them we're going to let you stake your USDC deposits on infinex and then
earn governance points for staking and the more governance points you earn the
faster you can get into trading when we start to open it up so yeah keep an eye
out for that it's called speedrun the waitlist is the campaign and yeah it's
another way to earn governance points and try out the app awesome everybody
you heard the man run hurry you're late you're not early I'm gonna be first I
want to know yeah no but seriously guys obviously follow the infinex account I
if you're not interested at this point I don't really know what to say to you
but extremely excited I'm extremely excited to see you start to siphon users
off for centralized exchanges I want no centralized exchange users I want all
DeFi users and you're doing the Lord's work in that respect so super excited to
see infinex progress and synthetics as well so again thank you thank you guys
for coming on thank you to everyone listen thank you future listeners and
followed optimist my last shill but yeah that was a really really fun discussion
so I appreciate it thanks so much child better organizing it's really fun of
course anytime anytime you want to come on please let me know I will talk about
synthetics perpetually so yeah hit me up if you guys want to do some more
synthetics chilling otherwise it's in that infinex and chill infinex and
chill yeah anyways thank you guys thank you everyone and all and this space now
so enjoy the rest of your week also absolutely thank you see ya bye guys