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Informal Spaces: Cosmos Hub x Lorenzo
Recorded: March 28, 2024 Duration: 1:01:24Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hey everyone, we'll get started in just a sec.
We're just waiting for a few more folks to join us, but thanks for being here and thanks
for your patience.
Okie dokie.
I think we have at least a few folks from each side where we are waiting for Thyborg to join
us, but I think we can go ahead and get kicked off.
Welcome to Informal Spaces.
Welcome to Informal Spaces.
This is a show that we do, we try to do very frequently on Thursdays, but this year we're
taking a new track with only having very special episodes, so we're really excited to have the
team from Lorenzo here with us.
They are the first Bitcoin L2 to announce their intention to join the AEZ as a consumer chain,
so very excited to dive in.
Just a little bit of housekeeping at the top.
These spaces are recorded, so feel free to listen to them later.
Anything we talk about in the spaces is not investment advice, just an insight into what
our teams are working on.
And that's it.
Also, just wanted to flag that some of us are having a bit of internet issues, so please
be patient with us.
We have a number of co-hosts and speakers, so hopefully we won't be dropping the space totally.
But yes, let's go ahead and get started.
Ney Hunt, I think you are going to kick us off.
Maybe we'll do some intros first, but not sure how you wanted to do the show?
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for that.
Welcome, everybody.
My name is Ney Hunt, aka OXCG.
Thank you- first of all, thank you so much to our amazing Hostいきformal system, as well
as shout out to all the speakers here.
How we typically like to do this is we start off with like a round of introduction, you
know, just go around the room asking, you know, going around the room, just like a quick
intro on everybody.
By the way, before I even fully dive into this, can everyone hear me okay?
You know, a little thumbs up, a little heart sign in the audience would definitely, okay,
I see some thumbs ups.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
All right.
So without further ado, let's get the show on the road.
So you know, for all our speakers, we got some amazing speakers on here.
You know, I see my guy, Matt right there.
I see Thiborg, I see Jehan, you know, thank you guys so much for coming up here.
If you could do like a round of like introductions, that will be fantastic.
Starting off with Matt, go ahead, Matt.
Oh, yeah.
Thanks, Nihant.
So yeah, just let me like quickly introduce myself.
So I'm Matt, the founders of Lorenzo Protocol.
So yeah, we are super excited to announce our partnership with Cosmos Hub and Informal.
So on the partnership with like being a consumer chain on the Cosmos ecosystem, like we're happy
to talk more about that.
Yep.
Awesome.
Next up, we got Jehan.
Go ahead, sir.
Hey, I'm the product owner, the Cosmos Hub team at Informal Systems.
So, yeah, I'm really excited to have Lorenzo joining and, you know, joining Interchain Security.
We secured through Babylon Bitcoin.
And it's our first kind of Bitcoin L2 use case that we have in the protocols.
It's very exciting.
Awesome.
Thank you for that.
Thyborg, go ahead, sir.
Yeah.
Hey, everyone.
I'm Thyborg.
I'm a director of strategy at Informal Systems.
And I'm also super excited to talk with you guys.
I think there's a big Bitcoin Renaissance these days.
And I'm happy the Cosmos Hub is part of that.
So looking forward to hear you guys talk to us about that.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for that.
And I am Ani Hunt, aka OXCG.
I'm the head of community at Lorenzo Protocol.
So first of all, thank you to all the speakers for being on here, taking the time.
Time Out to kind of, like, you know, educate our audience about what is getting built behind
the scenes for both the parties.
So we have a bunch of questions.
So how this usually works is, you know, we have an open panel discussion.
We ask a bunch of questions about each protocol, about what's getting built, what's new, what's
the alpha, you know, just give us everything.
Everything you guys can legally give us out, feel free to give us out.
And we'll take every bit of information we can get.
So after we're done with the round of questions, we'll open up the stage to our audience.
You know, we'll bring you guys up one at a time to come and ask you guys any questions
that you guys might have for this group of big brains we got up here.
So without further ado, actually, before that, before that, before that, can we get some, like,
thumbs up?
Can we get some, like, like?
Can we get some, like, hundreds?
Give me some reactions.
Let me see that you guys are active and that you want to hear more about this.
Just give me some love.
Give me some love and we can get this going.
Yeah.
I see a couple of thumbs up.
I will take that.
I will definitely take that.
All right.
So I'm just going to start off with our questions.
Starting off, we have, so, you know, we've heard this whole narrative about, like, you
know, L2s, Bitcoin, staking, restaking, so many, like, so many, like a whole plethora of
new information is coming out with a Bitcoin chain.
So I started off with, like, you know, so I wanted to understand what is the purpose
with the Lorenzo and Informal System Alliance, like, you know, what's going on?
What is this partnership about?
You know, feel free, anyone on the, anyone in the speaker audience, in the speaker panel
to, you know, start us off with.
Yeah.
I'm happy to, like, take it, like, just provide, like, shed some lights on it.
And, like, of course, yeah, the Cosmos team can have some, like, other, like, comments
on that.
So, but, like, I'm personally very excited about this.
So because, like, Bitcoin L2 or, like, scaling Bitcoin has become, like, the biggest problems
we are facing today.
So it's also the most exciting changes we're seeing in this industry.
So different people can have, like, different definitions or ideas about, you know, what
is a Bitcoin L2 or, like, like, what's the, like, legit way to scale Bitcoin and things
like that.
So, but for me personally, I was, like, super simple.
Just, like, two criteria is there.
One is that it has to be a Bitcoin standard economy.
It has to be using Bitcoin for, like, the most part.
This is, like, one thing.
For the other thing is that, so whatever, like, you know, computing results you're getting,
whatever states you're getting, so the Bitcoin should be able to take your results from there.
So based on these, like, two criterias, these actually, the easiest way is to kind of using
BTC staking to, like, provide securities, using, like, BTC share security to provide
securities to these decentralized systems, to providing, like, securities for them.
So whatever states they're getting, they're deriving.
So Bitcoin could be confident that to take it from there and to use the results in either
transactions or some other further, like, operations on a Bitcoin network.
So I think that what makes the alliance with Cosmos so exciting is that, so first, Cosmos
Hub itself is, like, a very big inter-chain security hub in here to, like, sharing securities
among all of these sidechains.
And also, at the same time, so Cosmos Hub is also the adopter of, like, Babylon BTC share
security, which means Cosmos Hub would be the best way for any, like, if you want to build,
like, a decentralized system to scale Bitcoin.
So getting BTC share security from Cosmos Hub and connected to the rest of the consumer
chains and, like, sidechains, working around interconnected with Cosmos Hub would be the easiest
way for you to build a system to scale Bitcoin and also, you know, to build a Bitcoin L2 to,
like, for either DeFi or some whatever app chains there.
So I think it's, like, super exciting to work together.
And also, we will be the first consumer chain to adopt that primitive and also working closely
with Cosmos Hub.
And also, we're also going to build this liquid restaking protocols on our platform.
That's the first ever Bitcoin liquid restaking protocol ever being created.
And we want to also connect our LRTs for Bitcoins to the DeFi, huge DeFi ecosystem in the Cosmos
space as well through IBC protocols.
Yep.
That sounds intense, and I love it.
If anyone wants to add more to this, you know, feel free to hop on and let us know.
Yeah, I could jump in, how I kind of see the role of Bitcoin and Babylon and Cosmos Hub
and Lorenzo and everything, if that's the right time.
So basically, you know, I think, you know, as we were saying, there's a Bitcoin renaissance,
and a lot of people are now building things on top of Bitcoin, you know, like Lorenzo.
And so one of the big pieces there is the Babylon protocol, which is a way to stake Bitcoin.
So by staking your Bitcoin, you can then secure, you know, basically a proof of stake chain,
but it's not secured with a proof of stake token secured with Bitcoin.
So that's really cool, revolutionary.
That's kind of what Babylon provides.
So where the Cosmos Hub comes in is that, you know, there's a set of tools,
a set of software tools called the Cosmos SDK and IBC and, you know, comma, BFT,
a lot of these technical terms, but it's basically a set of software like libraries
and a toolkit that people can use to build proof of stake chains.
And, you know, I think opinions can differ, but it's definitely one of the leading,
one of the top, you know, probably platforms for building a proof of stake chain.
And it is very kind of customizable.
And it's also very like batteries not included.
So when you build a proof of stake chain, you need not only a proof of stake chain,
you need like the validators, which are kind of like miners in Bitcoin.
And you, and, you know, you need the security, which comes through Babylon.
And so with the Cosmos Hub, what we're trying to do is kind of bring together,
you know, bring together chains like Lorenzo, bring them together with a battle-tested validator set,
one of the oldest and most, you know, reliable and well-established validator sets anywhere,
you know, in proof of stake, really, one of the first.
Bring that together with, with security from many assets, but especially Bitcoin.
So we kind of want to make it easy for chains to get launched and start running,
attract validators and be secured by, you know, pretty much whatever they want.
And yeah, I'll let someone else go, but I can also talk about how I see Lorenzo fitting in,
but maybe some of Lorenzo would be better, you know, speaking of that.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that.
We've got another speaker joining our panel.
Welcome, Tad.
Yeah, nice to be here.
It's really exciting to, to work with Cosmos.
Obviously, I just want to reiterate the SDK.
It's such an important part of the crypto space and Lorenzo is so excited to be part of it
and, you know, be able to leverage all the assets you guys bring, including that validator set.
Perfect. Perfect.
So regarding our first question, did anyone have anything else to input in,
like, you know, the last two cents in before I move on to our second round of questions?
All right. I'm going to take that silence as a yes and no more. Fantastic.
So the second question is an open-ended one.
Actually, no, no, sorry, not open-ended.
It's actually directly focused on informal system.
So for informal system, what have you guys been working on recently,
specifically in the terms of, like, efforts made for the BTC ecosystem?
So anybody from the informal systems team, this question goes out to you guys.
Yeah, I can speak to that again.
We've been working on the integration with Babylon.
And so with Babylon, you know, a lot of what they provide is the scripts on Bitcoin,
which is like very advanced cryptography that they've created there to let people stake
actually directly on the Bitcoin blockchain.
And so what we've been doing is kind of figuring out how that fits in,
how that gets connected to our modules and then how that security can flow through to,
you know, to chains that are consuming that security, like Lorenzo,
using those stake Bitcoins to secure themselves.
That sounds great.
Honestly, it sounds really, it sounds so interesting coming from like, you know,
from an outside perspective, like learning about all this stuff.
So super cool.
Thank you so much for that.
So I guess this might be an inverse question.
So this question goes out to Matt and Tad.
Now coming from Lorenzo, what has Lorenzo been doing?
What's when, what's, what have they been working on recently?
Or what's behind the scenes for them?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's has been like a lot of things going on, actually.
So our current focus, like I said, we were working on a liquid restaking protocol.
Right.
So while waiting for the Babylon BDC share security has been ready,
but like all work does not like put on hold.
We're not standing by.
So we're doing a lot of ground works to getting our, uh,
liquid restaking like standard LRT asset standards to be ready and to have like a wide coverage of this LRT in every ecosystem possible.
So, but to start with, there are like two major things we are working on.
One is the infrastructure and the other one is the asset standard and also asset adoptions, uh, in the ecosystem.
So on infrastructure side, we're going to be launching our app chain, uh, for issuing, like for like locking up and also safe staking, safekeeping of like BDC staking.
And also the issuance of our LRT for BDC liquid restaking called STBDC on our app chain.
So all these like protocol infrastructures has been like intensively, uh, building and also will be launching our test net early in April.
So this will be an EVM based, uh, Cosmos, uh, consumer chain, uh, working, working closely with Cosmos hub and also building our, uh, first ever liquid restaking protocols on top of our, uh, app chain.
So that is one thing.
So the other thing is, so, you know, if our LRT does not have a market, if there is no adoptions, there is actually just no point for you to keeping this assets.
Right.
So, uh, we're working with a lot of these like, uh, DeFi and also C5, uh, markets to get adoptions for our LRT assets and we're making a lot of success, uh, for that.
Um, the, but the biggest, uh, and like the, the first step for us to having our adoption of LRT is definitely in the Cosmos ecosystem as well.
So we are working very closely with Osmosis and injective and a few other, uh, DeFi marketplaces in a Cosmos ecosystem as well.
So once we launch, we should have like a very liquid market in a Cosmos DeFi ecosystem so that you can like, you know, like borrow or land or, uh, exchange.
So to do all of these like activities with our LRTs, uh, as soon as we launch, uh, in a Cosmos ecosystem.
And also before, uh, like Bob long BDC, like staking is ready.
So our security will also be protected by a Cosmos hub and Adam as well.
So, and also, uh, the Cosmos side of that dataset.
So it's like a very good, uh, approach for us to ramp up and have a very good, uh, security base even before the whole BDC staking system is fully ready.
Yeah.
So you guys basically, uh, like really proactive on getting things done before, like, I guess before Babylon is like fully live.
Am I correct?
Am I correct?
Yes, exactly.
So, you know, Babylon is like a very complicated system involves a lot of, it's like both decentralized and also it's like super secure and self custodial.
So there are a lot of when the works and technical stuff needs to be done before it's fully ready.
And they're like super careful with like every steps and that takes time as you can imagine.
So, uh, what we want to do is, so we want to have like all of like, including like TVL, including like, uh, or RTs, including, uh, even integrations with a lot of more like our clients and customers to be fully ready even before, uh, Bob one is ready.
But I think that the best part here is so we don't have to do like a lot of further integrations with Bob long because, uh, Cosmos hub is doing a lot of like these things for us.
So we are super appreciated for that. So, cause we are like, uh, secured by Cosmos hub already.
And once Bob long is ready, Bob ones like doing like BDC shared security, uh, with Cosmos hub and immediately we can get secured with both Cosmos hub and Bob long BDC staking all at the same time.
And also our, uh, our liquid staking through Bob one will be immediately ready through IBC protocol as well.
So that's kind of the best part is we do all of the groundwork before Bob one is ready.
But once Bob long is ready at the, like almost the same time with like all the great help from the Cosmos hub.
So we can get the whole system working immediately as well.
So we need to immediately, is that like, so if Babylon launches within like a month time, will, uh, will Lorenzo be, uh, will Lorenzo be live?
Or is it more like Babylon launches next day Lorenzo launches it or what is the timeframe look like?
Yes. So there are still, I feel like technical integrations in there, but like almost at the same time, I think.
So we're like doing a lot of kind of coordinations together as well.
Yeah.
That sounds great. That sounds great. Thank you so much for that.
Yep.
Um, so, you know, so now I guess it's like an open ended question for all our, uh, speaker panel.
Um, so what future do you envision for like Bitcoin defy, uh, as it relates to like the, as it relates to the Cosmo ecosystem?
What future do you guys see for the Bitcoin defy?
And like, you know, what, what do you guys envision?
Like the next thing to happen?
Uh, you know, when it comes to, especially when, when, when it's pertaining to the Cosmo ecosystem.
Hey, anyone can go.
Go ahead, John.
You want, you want to go, Matt?
Okay. I can go.
Um, you know, I, I don't, I don't necessarily, um, I might about be the, probably someone else is a better answer than this.
Cause I'm not, um, as much into the kind of finance, uh, DeFi side of it.
I'm more, you know, uh, about the platforms infrastructure, but one of the things like, um, I think that like with Lorenzo will provide, which is really cool.
Um, is that like, you know, with restaking with, so what, you know, with, with what Babylon we're offering, we, you know, Babylon, Bitcoin restaking.
Um, you know, Bitcoin people on Bitcoin are going to need to be able to like select basically a, a validator, a Cosmos hub validator, um, to run, you know, to, to, to represent their stake, you know, on, on Lorenzo and then also other, other consumer chains.
And so one of the cool things is that like, given that Lorenzo is a liquid, you know, liquid restaking token, um, that'll give people like an easier option basically.
So people are going to be able to, um, you know, put their, transfer the Bitcoin, like turn it into Lorenzo, um, stake Bitcoin.
I think if that's what you, I don't remember calling it stake Bitcoin or something else, but you know, stake, you know, liquid stake Bitcoin.
And so the Lorenzo protocol will actually choose, um, choose the validators for them.
So they don't need to necessarily worry about that stuff too much.
And then they'll be able to take that and trade it, you know, within, uh, within, you know, many DeFi marketplaces and stuff.
So that's what I'm mostly excited about. Cause that's a, you know, big UX thing, kind of bringing Bitcoin people into the world of having to, you know, delegate and choose validators and stuff.
So I didn't want to make that easier as it's pretty exciting.
No, absolutely. I think, you know, um, the easier we can make it on people, um, the more adoption happens.
And that's just been like, you know, for every, every new technology that comes out, the easier we make it for people, the faster the adoption happens.
But Matt, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. So, yeah, I totally agree with, uh, what, what, what Jayhan said.
Uh, and I feel a few things I would like to add is, so, yeah, of course.
So we are, we're going to like bring a lot of like liquid BTC, uh, liquidity into the Cosmos ecosystem.
And, uh, you know, cause we have like STBDC and we have BTC and we have a lot of even more like derivatives, uh, based on BTC and a BTC liquid restaking tokens being created.
A lot of these like structured financial products could potentially be created, uh, in the Cosmos DeFi ecosystem as well.
So that's also something we are like very eager to make it happen. And also we were doing a lot of works for that as well.
So this is of course one thing, but if we think about like even one step further, uh, I think like based on the assumption.
So for today, all of the Bitcoin L2s all have to use in BTC staking in the system more or less. Right.
So it's like becoming inevitable. So you cannot just build a CK stack directly on the Bitcoin network or building an OP style arbitration directly on, uh, Bitcoin.
It's basically not going to happen. The system is not there. Bitcoin is not ready for any of these.
So in order to make it happen, the only way is to build a BTC staking system and building the rest of the technologies on top of that, that is the only way.
So I think what Cosmos has had a very good ground with that is using Cosmos SDK and also Cosmos hub, like interchange share security.
This is actually the easiest way to launch any Bitcoin L2s.
If you want to be like DeFi, Bitcoin L2 DeFi app chains, and also get it connected with all of the rest of the Bitcoin L2 app chains.
This is the easiest way to launch it with Cosmos SDK and adopting BTC share security in the Cosmos ecosystem.
There is like pretty much the easiest way to do it.
So, uh, I think the futures I would imagine or to picture is I also would probably even encourage a lot of our ecosystem partners to do it as well as to.
You don't have to probably not launch the whole thing with Cosmos, but using a lot of the, uh, like the POS basis system with Cosmos SDK or launching your app chains with Cosmos SDK.
And bring in more, uh, BTC ecosystem tractions into the Cosmos ecosystem.
Cause Cosmos like has been like happening, like has been there for so long and said very good established infrastructures, uh, for DeFi infrastructures and all different kinds of utilities.
So that also makes, uh, like, you know, expanding BTC system very easy, uh, just to, for ramping up and stuff.
So I think this is like a huge market and like a huge opportunity for Cosmos to collaborate with the whole, uh, you know, the growth and advance of the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
That definitely does make a lot of sense.
Um, this is actually super cool.
Like, you know, the more and more I learn about, um, like the built Bitcoin L2, the things that get built on it, it's the more I'm intrigued on like, why do I, why don't I have majority of my, uh, holdings in Bitcoin and why have I diversified?
And now, now I feel bad and I want to diverse, put more in Bitcoin than anything else.
Um, thank you so much for that, Matt.
Um, so I guess like, you know, now, like, I guess like one of my, like, I guess it's my final question before, you know, we open up the floor to the audience.
Uh, but Matt, you've been working with Cosmos for a while.
Um, like, you know, and I know you mentioned some of this before in the previous question, but why did you guys choose to work with Cosmos?
Cosmos in like, in this capacity?
Yeah.
So I, I personally has been, I always been a Cosmos fan, like since the very, very beginning of the Cosmos histories.
I'm like so excited about this stuff.
So like, even before I, uh, started, uh, like Lorenzo, this project, I had some previous experience with like, uh, interchange communication and messaging kind of stuff.
Um, and also as an engineer before, I'm like very, uh, kind of familiar with like the event driven systems and also, you know, messaging systems.
I just feel like the design of Cosmos is so clean, so neat.
And the idea of like, you know, like developing the, the more complicated systems and also bring them together is like, it's like been so cool.
So I've always been like a huge fan of Cosmos.
Um, and also like, after we like diving more deeper into the, to the Bitcoin space, it has been becoming like a more and more clear and obvious options for us.
So, uh, Cosmos has been working very closely with Babylon and we are working very closely with Babylon.
Uh, and also like Cosmos providing that, like so many good features that we cannot, uh, even reject.
Uh, and also like I met Jahan before as well.
And we're talking so much about, uh, like what, what, what could be like the best way for Cosmos to collaborate with, uh, with Bitcoin ecosystem and how we can provide some value adds to the system as well.
And we just figured there were so many synergies here and so many great things we can do together.
Uh, and also I think like Cosmos was a very early mover to approach the BDT space as well.
And I totally appreciate that.
Uh, especially for like a very big company and very well established company, like for these kinds of big, uh, movements, uh, you will have to kind of go through a lot of stuff and it takes time.
But I think that Cosmos is like taking a lot of initiatives, uh, and also really taking, uh, you know, having a lot of advantages and also making a lot of good moves.
Uh, in, in, in, in like expanding into the, to the Bitcoin ecosystem and really providing infrastructures and the features for future builders, uh, to build further good stuff on top of that.
And I totally appreciate that.
Yeah.
That's a great explanation.
Uh, so Jehan, I guess like, I'm going to ask the inverse question for you as well.
Why the opposite?
I don't know.
I was just going to say, like, I'm going to ask the inverse question of this, like, you know, why the opposite?
So why did you guys like decide to collaborate with Lorenzo?
Like what, what made, I guess, what made us stand out, um, compared to the other people?
Um, yeah, I think, uh, I think I already kind of covered it, but I'll, I'll reiterate again.
I think it's, um, you know, we're very excited to support, uh, Bitcoin L2s, um, given that we're gonna have this functionality from Babylon.
And I think Lorenzo is kind of almost like an ideal first, uh, you know, first one to have because, um, because of what I was saying before with the, with the liquid, you know, the liquid staking aspect kind of, um, helping to, helping to smooth out some of the, um, you know, some of the things that Bitcoin people might not be as, as, uh, familiar with, I guess.
Um, so, you know, like validator selection and stuff like that, having an easy option, I think is actually really going to accelerate how much stake, you know, uh, we can bring in through Bitcoin, um, by, by removing some of those barriers.
Another thing I was interested in, I don't know, this might be a little off topic, but one thing that me and Matt were talking about before was, you know, I mean, there are definitely different, several different kinds of rapid Bitcoin that circulate around Cosmos through IBC, um, different platforms, um, that, that acts as bridges.
That, that acts as bridges or, or, or what have you.
Um, but I was kind of wondering, I mean, I wonder if like Lorenzo staked Bitcoin could become like somewhat of a standard for just not, not just for as a liquid staking token, but just representing Bitcoin in Cosmos.
Um, even though it's not quite, I mean, some people are always going to want to hold like, you know, uh, Bitcoin, um, even if it's on in Cosmos, like they want to have the kind of unstaked asset.
Um, you know, I think that's also kind of promising having somewhat of a, it'd be pretty cool.
That's definitely our ambition, sir.
Like we're totally on it.
Let's go.
That sounds fantastic.
Um, John, thank you so much for that.
Um, I, I'm going to open up the floor.
I just come in closing up to our site.
Sorry.
I just come in closing up to our half an R mark.
I wanted to open up the floor to our audience.
Um, if they had any questions, uh, you know, uh, we'd like to come and ask any questions.
Or I just want to come up and show up some love, you know, maybe show us a left informal system to Cosmos to Lorenzo feel free to come up on stage.
They're happy to bring you on, on, uh, on here.
If you guys have any questions, um, but please.
Yeah.
The floor is open.
In the meantime, while we wait for some requests, Nihat, you've been, you know, moderating for us, but is there anything that you're extra excited about?
I know you've been interjecting here and there, but anything, you know, I'd love to learn more about the Lorenzo community.
Yeah, absolutely.
So we just got a very strong community right now.
Uh, and we're again, like, you know, we're still in the startup stage as well.
So like the community understands that.
Uh, and I think it's a beautiful fact about like, you know, everyone's really keen and hyper about like learning about what's going on next.
Like I've got a flood of DMs asking me like, when testnet, when testnet.
And I'm like, Hey man, like, we're trying to get this out as soon as possible.
It's trying to get it out.
As soon as soon as Babylon, like, you know, go live, we can go live as well.
Um, and also the fact that like, you know, a lot of people are like willing to learn a lot more about this.
Um, again, so I'm not sure people know, but like I come from a background NFTs.
So like, you know, this is like a whole nother, another ball game that I'm working with.
And, uh, it's just good.
Like it's such a refreshing, uh, thing to see, like this side of crypto Twitter, then like the degen side of crypto Twitter.
Uh, but no, I'm actually honestly really excited to see like, you know, what's new and like, what's going to be the next, uh, big thing, which is going to be the next L2s.
Uh, which is on Bitcoin, of course, but I think that's what gets me really excited.
Um, and I, as I mentioned before as well, that like, I have a lot of my holdings and other coins, which is not good.
After this conversation, the first thing I'm going to do is like convert everything I have back to Bitcoin.
I'm going to take it back to the OG chain.
Yeah, I can add a little more, um, exciting things coming out in the pipe too.
Um, so we have a lot of, uh, ways you can engage with the community.
We were giving away, uh, a galaxy NFT to celebrate the sponsorship with informal systems and getting plugged into Cosmo.
So you can go to our galaxy page to commit that.
Um, and then we're also going to be doing a lot of events coming up.
We have Bitcoin, um, conference in Hong Kong.
Uh, I think Matt is, is talking to a bunch of people.
And, and, uh, Dubai soon for token, uh, 2049.
So if you're, you're interested in meeting up with him, um, maybe there's opportunity there.
Uh, and, and we'll be launching a early staker program, um, soon.
So keep an eye out for a wait list, uh, for like exclusive opportunity to, you know, get updated first on, on all the news and maybe, uh, some extra perks, uh, for being an early supporter.
Um, yeah.
And just personally, like, I want to reiterate how exciting this is.
You know, I, I've been working crypto full time since 2019, but, you know, I was at a FinTech app before and we were giving rewards in Bitcoin and Ethereum as early as 2017.
And I've, I worked with Zeta chain.
They were, um, really, uh, they're a cosmos chain as well.
So when I heard, uh, we were doing this partnership, you know, I was just really excited by the potential of, you know, getting all of these key, uh, projects together to support, you know, the next evolution of Bitcoin DeFi.
And I think, you know, Bitcoin can't do it without, you know, the whole market without wonderful projects like informal systems and cosmos, um, and Lorenzo.
So we're all here to rally around Bitcoin and really excited about the future.
I see, uh, someone asked, I'm so sorry.
Uh, I thought, I saw someone asked a question in the, uh, tweeted out a question to us.
Uh, I guess I can submit for both, uh, cosmos as well as, uh, informal systems, as well as, uh, Lorenzo.
Uh, will there be an airdrop for, uh, Adam stakers, uh, for it's from SC passion.
Uh, yes, I can, I can answer on that.
So, uh, yes, so we are, we'll having airdrop based on our stakers and also our, like, you know, our staking system is kind of like a dual, uh, systems.
There will be like some Adam and also for the most part, there will be like BTCs.
Uh, we like, eventually we are towards, uh, like, you know, staking like more, uh, using BTC in our networks to become like a fully, uh, BTC L2s.
But like Adam stakings and also BTC stakings will coexist for like long enough time.
And also we will reward, uh, like both of like stakers of both our tokens, uh, as well.
So yeah, I'll, I'll take, I'll, I'll say yes.
I can just add, I can't, I can't obviously speak to, to Lorenzo.
Um, we haven't really talked about the, about the tokenomics in depth yet, uh, that much either, but, um, anytime you're doing restaking, um, you know, with, with, uh, with the cosmos hub or with, with Babylon, um, or also, I mean, all the restaking protocols that exist out there, we haven't even talked about in this conversation.
Um, it is actually a little bit like an airdrop, um, because, you know, you're getting like, let's say Lorenzo, Lorenzo's got a token and it's, it's being paid out as, as staking rewards, uh, you know, to, to people staking Adam and then increasing the future people staking Bitcoin.
Bitcoin, it's almost like, you know, you're getting a, an air, an airdrop of, of, of Lorenzo at the same time, um, just for, for securing the chain.
I don't know. Is that how you see it, Matt?
Yeah, that's, that's correct, sir.
Awesome. Um, Thibaut, I know we lost you for a second, but, um, I don't see any raised hands. So do you want to share any closing thoughts before we close out the space?
Thanks, Abel. Yeah. I had to reinstall Twitter. I couldn't see anyone and I didn't know if people could hear me. It was terrible, but I'm back now.
And, um, I had a question actually for, for Matt. Um, I wanted to learn more about the flow. So say I'm a, I'm a Bitcoin holder on the Bitcoin blockchain.
How do I, uh, how do I use Lorenzo? How do I restake with you? I wanted to, can, can you maybe, uh, you know, step-by-step explain us how that's going to work?
Yes, of course. Absolutely. So I just want to have like, go through this user journey. So for our, uh, staking portfolio management, we actually have a system called the liquid restaking plan.
So, you know, like one huge difference between staking Ethereum and also staking to Bitcoin is that, you know, when you've staked to Ethereum, you always stick to this one specific chain.
Right. But when you're staking BTC, there is actually no single chain that you can like stake to like different people having different thoughts on what chains I want to stake to.
So that's going to be like a huge complexity in like, you know, for all of different combinations of the POS chains to be restaked to just to make things easier.
We actually have a lot of like predefined, we call it like liquid restaking plan, uh, which in like includes a few things.
One is the portfolio of different POS chains for it to restake to and also the staking cycles and the associated, uh, NPC address on the, on the Bitcoin, uh, on the Bitcoin network.
So the way you do it is that if I want to say, okay, go to like one chain to say, okay, I want to stake to this portfolio, which in having like Lorenzo chain, uh, Boblon.
And also like say new bid and, uh, uh, Osmosis.
That's for example.
So if I want to stake to these, uh, fuel chains.
So, and we'll like give you a MPC address on a Bitcoin network.
And for you to do it is that you stake and a lock up your BTC with this MPC, uh, wallet address.
And, uh, we're going to use the cosmos.
Uh, sorry.
We're going to use the Boblon, uh, staking script to like lock up your, uh, all of the BTC.
So you've been like lock up with our multi like MPC address and using the Boblon script to stake, uh, through Boblon to all of the POS change that you want to stake to.
But also all at the same time.
So we gonna like our reliers will like capture the information that you have been staking your BTC.
And we're going to be issuing, uh, our RT, which is STBDC on our app chain, which is this, uh, cosmos consumer chain.
So, and it's an ERC 20 standard.
So be created, minted, and also be an issued to your, uh, address being like claimed on our app chain.
And then you will be able to, uh, using our RT and the whole cosmos ecosystem through the IBC network.
So we're not building the defy like infrastructure ourselves.
We're pretty much just taking advantage of the existing, uh, defy infrastructures in a cosmos ecosystem as well.
And if you want to like use it in the like defy or C5 ecosystem, you can probably bridge it.
But also you just connect it to those like, uh, C5 products.
That's also doable.
Yeah.
So you guys will have, uh, so once, once I have the, uh, liquid Bitcoin on the Lorenzo blockchain, I use IBC to move it to Osmosis.
To move it to Osmosis, for instance, and here on Osmosis, you will have pools paired with USDC, USDT, maybe Adam.
Is that the plan?
Yes, exactly.
That is the plan.
So yeah, that's like pretty much what I was talking about is that.
So when you're talking about assets, like you cannot avoid like the secondary market or it's like the, the, the trading market of this assets.
If there's like no like trading opportunities at all, there's like actually pretty much like no point where they're keeping this assets.
So the one biggest thing we are working on is to like creating more trading pairs and all of the different, uh, DeFi and C5 ecosystem to getting, uh, getting our LRT standards to be the standard of Bitcoin, uh, LRT, or even like red Bitcoin as well.
Just be the representation and also, uh, yeah, just like unlocking like huge equities for all of the trading pairs and also providing yield opportunities for STBTC as well.
Yeah.
Cool.
And so the idea is that this asset, STBTC will be better to hold than, you know, the current version we have in Cosmos, which is our bridge.
Yeah.
Axel are, or actually I think Cosmosis now has a native, uh, red Bitcoin implementation, uh, WBTC.
The, the BitGo people, uh, are issuing BitGo BTC on, uh, on, on, on Osmosis.
This is better because this one auto compounds, right?
It will accumulate rewards automatically.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly, sir.
So I know like different BTC probably have their own like advantages, but you know, what's really unique about our LRT, like BTC, I really appreciate, sir.
You mentioned this is that we're something like more like, you know, the, the treasury bills or something is that we accrue values.
When you're like holding, uh, STBTC is actually like accrues more values from staking to these, like, uh, these like POS chains.
For example, if you stake one BTC through us to Babylon, uh, and providing like securities to the, those like four or five different POS chains, and they give you like a 20% reward on that.
And your BTC's value, STBTC's value will be increased by 20% based on all of these, like, you know, validating rewards you're getting from securing these POS chains.
So STBTC is going, is like asset for you to keep, and it will be like, appreciate, not just based on BTC's own intrinsic value increase, increment, but also increase value and get appreciate from all of these POS huge, like ecosystem or Bitcoin L2 ecosystem being secured by BTC and keep accruing values and adding values to STBTC itself as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
And so I guess, uh, another reason why people like BTC is because it's a great, uh, store of value and this one even more because it actually accrues value.
Um, do you guys have any plan to integrate with cosmos defy in, you know, money markets or, you know, stable coin protocols or anything like that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We actually have a lot of like, uh, in depth conversation and partnership building a lot of things just haven't been PR yet.
Uh, but like we have a lot of headways, for example, working with osmosis and they are providing this, like, uh, this omni chain, uh, like trading market as well.
Uh, and also like was injective as well.
So we, we're working putting a lot of kind of partnerships within the cosmos ecosystem currently, and just please stay tuned.
Cause there will be like a lot of, uh, PRSB announced in the coming few weeks about all of these partnerships.
Nice.
And one last question for me, uh, I'm curious about the term Bitcoin L2, uh, because for me, L2 is a, is a, is a blockchain that essentially, uh, outsourced DA to another blockchain.
So for me, Bitcoin L2 is a, is, is a, someone that uses, uh, Bitcoin for DA.
And this is not the case here, right?
Like you, you will, uh, you will still have your own cosmos chain and DA will be on your, on your own cosmos chain.
Yes.
Yes.
So, you know, like one of the problems we are facing here is if you think about like, if you think about like Bitcoin as a DA as well, yeah, of course it can be considered as a DA.
So the block time is like 10 minutes and also the maximum data that you can write is about, uh, four megabytes with the, all of the temporary upgrades.
Um, so like, well, one thing was that is if you're thinking about is a DA or like a disc, it's actually IO speed is just about seven kilobytes per second.
And also it's very expensive at the same time as well.
If you're really going to use Bitcoin and also the SegWit space, uh, as the storage, it's actually like very capital, uh, kind of inefficient for it to write data onto it.
So you only want to write really critical and really like valuable data onto Bitcoin when necessary.
But for most of, you know, like the defined states and also for application states, uh, for block information, raw data, actually these data does not kind of having that much value that worth you to like write everything onto like Bitcoin.
Bitcoin and also the bandwidth that's not allow you to write off the data into Bitcoin as well.
So, uh, yeah.
So the short answer is yes, we'll have to build our own DA and also build our own blockchains for storing all of these, you know, less important.
I'm not saying like less important, but less, uh, capital valuable, uh, data onto our own DA, but also this DA will be secured by BDC share security wire for those like really critical, like financially critical data, including transactions, like settlement of transactions and like Bitcoin ownership.
But also these like, uh, uh, uh, the other kind of like BRC 20 or other Bitcoin as a standard settlement, all of these data will be settled on the Bitcoin DA.
So we want to like have a very good synergy to bring our BDC share security data, which is supposed to be more high performance one and the original Bitcoin network as a DA together to building this like very performance system on top of that.
Oh no, I think we, uh, we might've lost Tebow again, but he's coming back, but yeah.
Elon fixed this.
I know it's, it's so annoying.
We've been having issues, um, but he's, he's coming back.
He's coming back.
There he is.
Yep.
Tebow, were you able to catch the answer?
Yeah.
Cyborg, were you able to catch the end of Matt's answer?
How's everyone else's sound right now?
Am I talking into, into the ether?
I hear everything.
Um, it sounds like, you know, we should probably move on.
It sounds like, uh, we're saying some more, more problems here.
Yeah, for sure.
But, uh, yeah, that's super interesting.
I think the contrast between restaking and, um, and DA as a form of, of shared security is a really interesting, really interesting distinction.
Um, I think one thing I'd add just on a technical note is that if you use Bitcoin for DA and the funny thing that people don't realize actually is like, you know, the concept of data availability and everything.
Um, like, I don't know if you've heard about it from like maybe Ethereum or also like, you know, in Cosmos, you have something called Celestia, um, is actually something that was pioneered on Bitcoin, like a really, really, really long time ago with colored coins.
Um, which I think is an interesting tidbit.
Um, but basically I think what I would say about that is that like, you know, with, if you put DA directing on Bitcoin, you get the entire, you get the entire security of Bitcoin.
Um, so you, you get the whole security, uh, and you pay for it.
Um, uh, if you're using restaking with, with restake bitcoins, um, and you know, it's, it's securing like a chain like Lorenzo, for example, Bitcoin L2 in that way.
Um, it is, uh, it's going to have the security of all the stake bitcoins that are securing it.
So it's not necessarily, unless every single Bitcoin is, is staked and Satoshi, you know, gets on Babylon and stuff.
Um, you know, it's not going to be as, um, as secure as the entire Bitcoin blockchain security.
Um, but depending on how much is restake, you can still be very secure.
Is that how you see it, Matt?
Yeah, I think like, you know, a lot of people have been asking me this before as well.
And also there have been some debates around it.
Uh, but you know, like, I wouldn't say like BDC stake is exactly the same as the original POW.
Cause it is not right.
Yeah.
It's different.
Yeah.
But also like we were facing this dilemma, like, uh, also POW has its own like limitations.
It's very hard to really, you know, be the same.
And there has been like merge mining mechanisms and, uh, merge mining has its own limitations as well.
So, uh, and it's been out for, for a while.
And, uh, I think people has been like very familiar with like what it's capable of and, and all of its limitations all at the same time as well.
So, um, for like the BTC, uh, staking or BTC shared security, this is like a pretty new stuff.
And this seems to be like the only solutions to, you know, solve the problems.
Cause if we would like check all of the blockchain ecosystem today.
So most of them like our POS based or, you know, at least a collateral based, it will be like POS like probably not like exactly POS, but it's like also POS like system and also a collateral based.
That seems to be like the only solution to, you know, to provide a solution based on the trilemma of blockchains.
So if we have to go for, uh, the collateral ways, I mean, it becomes super obvious, like Bitcoin is the best solution and the only solution is for it to do that.
So if you ever going to use a collateral to secure, uh, a system used to, you know, enhance and scale Bitcoin, like if not Bitcoin, then what, right?
There's actually no other, uh, options for you to do that.
And also Bitcoin is a perfect access to be used as collateral is that given it has a very good, uh, you know, foundations for people's recognition and also adoption.
So people like, you know, recognize its values, right?
It's not like, uh, you know, an altcoin that only very small group of people knows that pretty much everybody.
In the world knows about Bitcoin right now.
So it's kind of very well acknowledged, uh, uh, assets.
So this is like very good for us.
Um, and also, uh, it's like a huge market cap, right?
So Bitcoin is pretty much like half of the crypto market right now.
So it has like a big enough capitals to provide securities to it.
It's like Bitcoin is not an asset with only like 10 million market cap is like, that's, that's a very easy to having like adopt this, like 51% attack.
If you want to do a 50% attack on top of Bitcoin.
So you'll have to pretty much use the whole like crypto market to attack it, which is impossible to happen.
So, uh, the only one concern here would be like, if you lock up too many, uh, Bitcoins into the space.
Well, not, you know, we don't have inflation cause we do not, we do not create Bitcoin, right?
We just utilize Bitcoin.
So what about like too much liquidity has been locked up in the staking?
So that's why we are here when you are staking Bitcoins.
We're providing this liquid staking BTC tokens so that you can still get to keep liquidity.
And also, you know, unlock these liquidity in all of the DeFi ecosystem as well.
Um, yeah, so that's, that's pretty much like our take on this.
Cool.
I'm back by the way.
And I did, I did hear some of Matt's answer about Bitcoin not being good for DA or not having the throughput.
I will, uh, I just want to add something, uh, from the Cosmos upside.
Uh, Jehan was saying, you know, if Satoshi is listening, uh, maybe he should use a Lorenzo to secure and that way the stake would be higher.
Uh, if Satoshi is listening, he should also make sure he chooses the right validator.
Uh, because not all the Cosmos up validators will validate Lorenzo.
And so there, there, there's this game that's going to play out with a partial set security that all the validator, all the delegators should make sure to choose validators that will onboard, um, Lorenzo or any other consumer chain, PSS consumer chain that they, they want to, they are, they have interest in, or, you know, they, they want to validate.
They want to delegate and secure.
Uh, the reason for that is the, the way we envision the economics of PSS, uh, is that the, the, the validators, uh, that we validate the PSS chain will have a higher yield and higher rewards at, at the very least, uh, in terms of, uh, the, the staking rewards or rather the, uh, the rewards distributed by the PSS chain.
Uh, so that's gonna, that's gonna add an element of fun, uh, to the Cosmos sub that I'm looking forward to.
Um, yeah, I'll just add that if we want to get highly technical here, I guess, um, you know, it's still, it's still, we're still evolving the system.
Um, but basically how, what, what he was referring to is the, um, you know, the, the Cosmos sub restaking protocol, uh, it's called interchange security.
Um, and there, we have an update to it.
It's like the second version of it.
Uh, it's, uh, it's, which is called partial set security.
Um, and that's where validators can choose which, which, uh, which chains they want to validate.
So it becomes a lot more like a validator marketplace.
And that's kind of what makes it easy for, you know, people launch chains, kind of be able to launch a chain, have validators often immediately.
Um, in any case though, um, the validators choose which change they want to validate.
And, um, the chains on the other hand can choose, um, where they want to send their, uh, their staking rewards.
So Lorenzo might say, Hey, you know what?
We want 90% of our rewards going to people staking Bitcoin.
Um, and so then that security comes through, um, from, from Babylon.
Um, that's Bitcoin stakers on, on Bitcoin are choosing which cosmos, how validator they want to go with.
And the Bitcoin stakers are likely to choose validators who, uh, are focused on, on Bitcoin.
Uh, are focused a little bit more on Bitcoin maybe.
So validators who stake or who, who validate on, um, you know, validate on chains, um, that are, uh, you know, like Lorenzo that, that are giving a lot of the rewards to Bitcoin.
So that's kind of how we see it playing out is that, you know, validators will validate, be able to choose which chains they want to validate and then delegators on Bitcoin or anywhere else.
Um, cause we want to add, you know, Ethereum security with Eigenlayer and stuff and then other things.
Um, but delegators basically choose, um, which validators to go with and they're going to have to look at, you know, what assets they're interested in earning.
Um, and you know, what, what kind of returns those validators are providing and the assets they're interested in.
Um, but anyway, since, since Lorenzo is providing, not only is consuming security through the system, but is also providing a liquid restaking token on top of it.
That's actually like, you know, if you don't want to think about that, uh, you can just stake to Lorenzo and Lorenzo protocol.
We'll figure it out how to get you, you know, the best return and what validators to go delegate to.
And Matt, uh, just to flip on that, I'm wondering how many validators do you guys want for Lorenzo out of the 180 validators of the Cosmos Hub?
How many would you like, uh, securing the Lorenzo protocol?
Yeah.
So, uh, I think like to start with, I think I'm maybe like about like 20, like to 30 would be like very, uh, reasonable amounts to be starting with.
Uh, but future on.
So when we like our ecosystem keeps getting bigger and also, you know, there are actually like a few more things, uh, with that.
So I think for our own, uh, for our own, uh, app chains, I think like probably like around like 20 to 30 would be like the numbers that we would ever need.
But also we might be talking about a lot of the other, uh, like, you know, Cosmos, like, uh, Bitcoin L2 app chains being like been launched with Cosmos.
And also these chains will be needing like validator sets as well.
So potentially I think there'll be like a huge demand, uh, on the Cosmos validator set as well for these like new common Bitcoin chains.
It's like new common Bitcoin out to Cosmos, uh, consumer chains.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, in general, I think, uh, Lorenzo is going to be the first of hopefully several, uh, Bitcoin L2s.
I guess let's use L2s.
You clarified that a little bit.
I'm still, uh, you know, I had a mantle model for L2s that would, that was a bit different.
Uh, but I guess for Bitcoin, I can, I can be flexible.
Uh, all the Bitcoin L2s for us on the Cosmos hub side.
Uh, we are very excited to open up a new market here.
And this is, uh, this is something that, uh, I think is going to be a little slow for people to, you know, make sure they understand.
But it's not that the Cosmos hub is only about Cosmos anymore.
We want to be the security aggregator that opens up this kind of opportunities.
And I think it's great that we have Lorenzo to pioneer that.
Yeah, that's, that's fantastic.
That's the, that's the best like mentalities, uh, like from, from Cosmos.
I really appreciate that.
That's so fantastic, sir.
And another thing, uh, I wanted to, uh, to point out in terms of, uh, I'd rather ask you, Matt, uh, because we have somebody here listening to this chat, uh, what would be the process of getting in touch with you and maybe getting first in line, uh, for the, uh, for the Lorenzo chain?
Uh, yes.
So you can just like reach out to me or like, or, or anyone's on teams, like, uh, Tad would like also be one of the contacts as well.
So, uh, we are working on launching our test net and shortly after that, or main ad procedures.
And we are also collecting intentions on becoming our validators.
And we're all like, uh, you know, we're just like collecting intentions and we'll be formalizing that towards, uh, our launch of, of, of, of main ad.
Yeah.
Nice.
Awesome.
Cool.
Well, Isabella, I think we are up on time.
Uh, so I'm going to leave it to you to maybe, uh, decide if we continue or if we close the space.
Yeah.
I mean, I think we're at the top of the hour and Matt, I know it was super early for you when we, when we started this.
So really appreciate you and the rest of your team for joining.
Um, appreciate all of the audience members for joining us.
Um, thank you so much.
Thank you so much OXCG for being an awesome moderator.
And we're glad to have everybody from both Lorenzo and our side and excited to see how things progress.
Um, I believe the, um, ICS 2.0 partial security, uh, proposal is on chain.
Now, Jahan, that's correct, right?
Uh, yeah, we just, uh, we just put it up.
Um, it's, uh, it was on the forum, but, uh, so this is the, this is bringing in the upgrade.
That's going to allow, um, you know, allow, allow chains to launch with this sort of validator marketplace.
Um, so we just put it on chain.
It is a signaling proposal.
Uh, the actual upgrade, uh, the, the, the, the upgrade of the code is going to happen in
probably in a couple months.
Um, but yeah, it's up on chain for voting on the Cosmos sub right now.
Okay.
Awesome.
Well, thank you everyone for joining and, uh, feel free to leave us any additional questions
and the replies and our teams will, um, do our best to get back to you.
Yep.
Thanks everyone.
Bye everyone.
I'm sorry.
Thank you for having us.
Thanks guys.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
