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Innovation in the Cosmos: Ep15
Recorded: Oct. 2, 2024 Duration: 1:17:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Welcome to episode 15 of Innovation in the Cosmos.
I'll be host today, Jack.
Thank you, guys.
Thank you,
thank you,
Yeah.
Okay, guys.
for our mission.
We're glad to have that concept of the and just one day is
coming up, I think we're very big on decentralized business and
operating the centralized protocols at profit so that they can
be economically viable, as well.
And part of our ethos has always been that with efficiency and
specialization, there's going to be a trend towards off like
those will be separate um and right now we're seeing a massive massive innovation and advancement
in the aggregator battle there are lots and lots of super aggregators powered by language models
powered by ai bots intense based trading intense based uh trading strategies that uh encompass all
chains and whatnot um which does fit our ethos because as this happens they're still having to
use the liquidity that's uh segregated in other dexes that are still focused towards traders so
it makes us feel better about what we're doing in trying to trying to focus on a defy experience
specifically for the investors and the lps um but at the same time it's a it's neat seeing that it's
going to make it much more accessible projects like ellis that are going to make things much um
the defy experience much more accessible to uh regular users who don't want to have to figure
out how to do a wallet how to get a ledger what all this trading stuff means how to deal with gas
does he get things like gas abstraction uh so that's what a big narrative that that we're seeing
and then and then to touch on the like cosmos ecosystem versus other ecosystems um and we're
too focused we're too early to see the big picture a lot of the times uh when when you build a website
so like oh well did you build this on on square or what what did you build it on like uh when you
register a domain it's like did you register your domain on godaddy or did you register it on
a name cheap like nobody cares they just care that you can use your product and um what's special
about cosmos in my opinion really is ibc and i think that is going to in some way shape or form be
the communication standard between all these different blockchains but the future of the
internet is like web3 is going to actually be and work like a new version of the internet that's
oftentimes run and powered by ai but users just use what they want and now they have ownership
and um ibc is just what's going to connect everything behind the scenes and it's not going
to matter if you built it in solidity or if you built it in rust it's not going to matter if you
built it in cosmos or if you built it on avalanche it's just going to work and so right now we're just
competing to be the thing that works that's a great point man that just this idea that um
as soon as we get past this period like right now it's like uh you know like the the uh web3
builders are building a house and they're like obsessing over the wiring it's like all that
really matters eventually is like how you turn the you know if you turn the light switch on does it work
or not no one really cares like so but you know as technical people and people that are really early
to this space we're seeing the the very small details that go into the infrastructure but eventually
the house will be lived in right for hopefully decades and so this is like this whole period of
like obsessing over the tiny details and getting that experience right and the other thing that i
i heard you mention as well and uh sean touched on is just the idea of unified liquidity like there's
such an obvious uh drawback of crypto at the moment like you can't it's actually even difficult to
explain to people that don't understand uh like crypto at all like oh they haven't used defi it's like
imagine like a bunch of different bubbles and basically there's loads of things that do very similar
things you can't interact with outside of your bubble it's just very very clunky and um i think
you know there's a lot of teams that are going after it um you've got um you know optimism with
the super change you've got polygon with the ugly you've got the ibc um and a bunch of other
different teams and i think whoever whichever team cracks that and crucially is compatible with all the
other super versions so like you know if super change integrates the ag layer or ibc integrates
both or whatever whoever cracks that will be like the i think will be a you know a very very interesting
team and a very innovative team that's able to do that it's like we're all sending out mom and pop
shops and we all know that amazon's gonna right but who is amazon and that's that's the exciting thing
about the next kind of five years we don't really know who you know somebody's uh somebody's jeff bezos
in his garage selling books right ready to ready to take us all out and uh undercut us but we don't
know who that is and it's really interesting and like personally i like the clunkiness because it
allows you to get a real feel for the technology um and i think you know just being at the uh token
you just get this sense that like you know the majority of people there they're curious they're
tinkerers they want to like dig into the detail and it's really nice to be in a space like that
um you know as much as it will be great when we can just go in and turn the lights on to use my
only metaphor it's also good to see the little details that go into it and see the individual
battles that people fight to make that work uh hyper sign i know you've got your hand raised you can
just jump in man if you feel like you've got a point you want to make over it oh no i i just wanted
to add on to some points like since you guys were talking about you know uh being a community that
is inclusive um i mean before we were you know you know cosmos as if if you look at like evm people
talking about cosmos it was always like these guys just building chains after chains and then they are
uh you know fighting with each other just for the same small set of liquidity or users but honestly
i like like you were saying um like ellis network and there is now poladis app on osmosis the uh the
ux is completely changing now and people are now focusing on uh you know the the bigger share of like
users that are on dexes sexes and and others one one point i wanted to add like before token 2049
everybody was talking about uh abstraction and i think so if you would have been to any of the uh
european events um like eat i forgot and most of the events were about abstraction i guess abstraction
is now in production and many projects are have implemented it in different shape and form uh so
so now in token 2049 this time i saw like uh two major narrative one i am i'm sure you guys also know
about it but just wanted to bring it out for the other audience like deep in was taking taking over and
restaking like i saw these two uh uh you know heavily heavy um uh i guess events on these two narrative
and ai of course but i i am uh i'm still not sure about how ai is going to play with uh you know crypto
but definitely deep in rwa and restaking are like the next uh narrative i'm sure others can add more to it
eric let me let me just bring you back in here because i noticed you give thumbs down what's the
uh what's the deal you disagree you don't like it i i i don't disagree that those are the narratives i
just disagree on what should be so i i love deep in i think deep in the future
we can actually build something that's sustainable something that's perpetually censorship resistant but
can still operate as a business like everything i'm doing i'm hoping to help create the tools of
freedom that deep in can offer um however i think restaking is completely boring and worthless as a
narrative and it's just something that people are looking for to raise more vc funding like i don't
think that there's any like long-term future in in resake it's a useful cute tool for something very
very short term just personally yeah i love that eric if you notice i think that for those of us that
did go to singapore is uh really heavy there's more vc side events than i have seen at previous events or
even potentially east dubai back in april so you think okay to see that play out everybody almost
rides those those dumb narratives that you just have to almost throw in your in your deck to then
secure your money to then be able to ride out the next five to seven years if you can manage a treasury
correctly so that then you can learn wait how do i actually what where am i going to pivot this
business in year two or four to actually get a real use case and real users but it is so so annoying
right the the narratives that change every six months on a topic when you're like if we know
it changes every six months you know why do we keep spitting out these dumb ass narratives that's
my take on it yeah like so i do tokenomics for protocols right and one of the first things i ask
when i have a new client is like what do you sell like i want to figure out what the long-term value
creation is they're like and a lot of times like oh well we're doing like a science or project we don't
know how to monetize it cool i can help you figure out how to do that but as soon as the tokenomics
are the value add of a product um then then like it's something it's meant to help capture the value
that you can independently create and the whole thing with restaking is you're not really creating
value you're just allowing people to pay rent for something that you don't like inherently offer
yourself uh the whole narrative of economic security is completely misunderstood um but i'll i won't
digress into that in that space so just give my opinion
so i think when everybody comes together and i know it sounds just too good to be true but when
defy and i've seen it it's been happening over the last couple years stop like the the tribalism and
the in the infighting and just like the drama back and forth and just focus on what everybody's
building and some projects are just building things that are amazing that you cannot no matter what
your team does if you have something else in mind as your main goal you can't just add that on right
so even if what they're building becomes the narrative it can't everybody can't do everything
and i and i believe like just to take it to something kind of simple is when you hop into a
centralized exchange all these things that we're talking about the connectivity and being able to have
universal liquidity these are things that we need to do to just emulate that experience to the user
so it needs to be done and it needs to be it needs to be everybody it doesn't i mean some projects
obviously not but it needs to be defy in general coming together and it needs to be so we can have
a united front and show that we can do what they can do and get that market share that they have we have
about eight million or nine million defy users it's just a drop in the bucket we're not even and then and
so we don't have and we all and because of that our feedback loop is from engineers so we have
engineers building products for engineers and every all the engineers think it's cool right so great but
they're not going to be buying the products they're not going to be using them and so we need to market
to the ones to the big to the masses and we've said it several times in meetings with vcs and they
laugh they say you know what defy has been trying to do this for a long time what makes you different
well what makes us different is we're willing to open our um our project up and meet any anybody
and everybody that's willing to meet and due diligence on these teams and see if they're
willing to work together and that's what it is it's not just a front to get along or to shake a hand
and say yeah you know nice to meet you like nice to meet you what can we do how can we connect let's
make it real let's make it tangible and let's realize that we're not against each other at all and nobody
really cares about what's being said in social media and cosmos the world doesn't care everybody
in cosmos seems to care more but that's why it can't be about cosmos and it can't even really just
be about defy the the people that are out there the two three hundred million users they're not having
these conversations they're on a break at work clicking on the easiest app they can they're not
reading about hours and hours of defy and they're not hopping in to look at all the wiring however
i did i like the wiring as well but i'm around constantly 95 of the time around people who could
give a about the wiring right they just want something easy and so i think if we all focus on
you know build build build but just remember that your end user is not going to be the engineer it's
not going to be anybody on social media i mean if it is it's just a very small small number um
back to narratives a narrative that caught that i learned um even more so and i kind of knew and
at token was it doesn't matter and this is going to be kind of weird to hear for some and some already
know but to a lot of investors right now it doesn't really matter as much what you're building rather
than the messaging and the attention that it's getting as sad as that may be so um that's the truth
and so you could be building something that's you know 100 times better than the person or the team
coming behind you but if their presentation is good and they're captivating and they have that energy
the vcs look at that just as much as the product itself just as much and they will not like tell you
that but i specifically asked a couple that were close to that we got to know and then just ask them
point blank and look them right in the right in the eyes till it gets awkward and they'll just tell you
yeah the absolutely the attention that it's getting uh the way that you know how to market
and and captivate an audience that's a lot because unless you have that a great marketing team
and you can garner tons of attention man do you think that these investors really care what the
users are are going to be using in the very end i mean they some of them do but a lot less than we
think they really want to hit their bottom line they want to hit their formula and as soon as it
becomes profitable that's when they see profit and so if they don't think you're going to have the
attention when vesting schedule ends they're not going to be interested period yeah i kind of echo
what you just said mish actually um i was i was looking at some projects who just have these you know
in the names that you we all talked about all those narrative and they don't have any product built
but uh you know they are able to bring some hype by tagging or whatever so they are able to raise
but projects with users uh with a stable revenue but kind of you know you can figure out okay this is
the market they are targeting and it is clear to to the investor okay this is the market and probably this
could be potential market but it is not something which can be hype-ish you know or something like
those two three narratives which are going on so it is quite tough to raise at this point i mean i'm
just sharing my own personal experience well yeah just to piggyback on that real quick and how we're
tackling that because we just did start a new raise and although it might be hard uh the best companies
are built and the best companies are going to raise during this time and so i think it's important for
everybody who's thinking about starting a protocol or starting about thinking about doing another raise
or any type of a raise is realize that there's always two products out there there's the product
you're building and then there's the token which unfortunately is has now become the product as well
so you have two types of success that you want to hit and i you know melch and i were talking about
this and we really connected on it please realize that the product and the attend or that the attention
that you get and social media and the and your following is its product within itself and and
the reputation that's created around your token that's a whole separate product than what you're
actually building and the community is too and the communities are also split as well the ones that
are there for their camaraderie and to go for the missions and stuff like that and the ones who are
actually going to use the product so i i just don't let it get you down but it's definitely possible
to raise we're gonna knock this raise out of the park and i know um a couple others who are starting
raises too and they're going to but just you have to know that there's two types of this here there's
that product that is the token and then there's what you're building and later on when the when the
hype fizzles out your the market's going to price your project and price your token at what it falls
on which it falls on is the fundamentals which is your what you're building now and so that's good
it's still you have to have a core product you have to have something that's good but you but also you
just need the attention and that was something i didn't know how important those two things were
together until i was a token yeah it's it's amazing how i know they get i think the three of us between
eric mitchell and i we always talk about it and obviously jack doing this for a living it's the marketing
and sales is is when you're this early and working in a space like this it is so much more than
product right people can raise on a story and a founder's personality so you got to think when in
any form of your raise that's man that'll do so much more the heavy lifting versus the idea i mean
you know there's got to be some weight to these right you can't just show up with a you know a bag
of trash but if you have a personality i mean these are guys like you know spf right i mean the guy
had a shitty personality but i was able to get a following and explode um you know any any other scam
where there's effective altruism right that's good yeah you know but no you you're right man like
so totally agree um the personality thing i think one thing that's really important and we try to do
this at lunar digital assets is just when we have projects really drill down into pmf product market fit
um and that's like a complicated thing but just in a nutshell like to give you a great example
uh pum.fun on solana superb product market fit right people on solana just wanted to gamble really
really wanted to gamble on on shit coins uh that had a superb product market fit probably had in this
cycle the best product market fit of any app by a long way uniswap amazing product market fit right
you know everybody had these tokens that were kind of like half liquid needed a place to swap them a lot
of people didn't want kyc superb product market fit and that you get these apps that come well i think
pump.fun was the the fastest app ever to get to 100 million in revenue um from from like zero to 100
mil and that that just shows you this that's legendary product market fit not just in crypto but just in
in the world in general you know in all tech and so you know you don't have to be that far ahead i mean
it's really nice to be um but i think it it's not always about you know like especially on the
technical side the tech teams they get wrapped up in like building an amazing product and technically
a product can be brilliant it can be like far ahead of others in this class but if it's just in the
wrong category at the wrong time if you're too early if you are you know building something that is
technically amazing but isn't really what people want um you know you can miss product market fit or you
can just not have it entirely and that can do more damage to the product than like frankly having a
shitty product sometimes i think about the original experience on uniswap it's like super basic you
know but it basically does what you wanted it to do which is you want to swap tokens on eth right
this erc20 standard there's like thousands of tokens now you need some place to swap them
um but then later on you can then it's better to have the product market fit build a basic version of
something and then iterate to make that better and better and better and closer to what would be
a perfect product whereas a dev on the dev side a lot of the time they try and build the perfect product
and it's difficult to align that with what the industry actually wants because sometimes things
are just technically possible and very difficult to achieve but not actually what the industry wants
um you know and this is like a really important part of going to market with a product
i do agree with that i would say that one of the things that that fan actually did quite well is
that they actually deliver a solution for something that people would like to be looking for since
quite a while like launching a memcoin token actually being able to buy your memcoin token without
looking at smart contracts or anything like i think they actually figure out something that every single
project have to figure out people actually just want two things people are actually lazy uh every
single people uh and myself included i would say so they want to find all the information and everything
they can do on the same spot i would say so it's very easy to find a good product market fit if you can
actually bring to the table many many different tools for people to do whatever they do every single day
and people want to make money quickly or lose money quickly if you actually talk about them don't fun
uh and and that that's the overall idea of that like uh if you want to find a good pmf you have to
actually figure out that your solution uh even if you're actually building something which is amazing on
the tech side your solution on the marketing side should be very easy to understand uh very sticky for
the users like you should bring to the table something that they all need that's all like it's one of the
the vision we have within this networking like the goal is not to be the best decks or even to
actually figure out what kind of liquidity pool we can bring i would say concentrated concentrated
liquidity pools or even the best the best way to actually uh get the best incentives or anything the
goal is just to make sure that if someone actually come to a list network they will be able to do everything
they want uh in terms of defy and they won't have to leave uh the application to do whatever they want
to do liquid stacking or even uh perpetual trading or uh liquidity pool or swapping anything right
i i do guess that uh we are all some geeks uh living in some caves somehow uh myself included as well
and uh we we doesn't often see uh that people want just their life to be easy and uh it's for everything
even in the daily life not only related to crypto so uh i would say that coming from uh
uh i would say different narratives we have all those narratives actually lead to the same thing like
we just want to to know uh which kind of uh new trends will actually build something cool that can enable those kind of things
like action abstraction right abstraction all those narratives are pretty much very very useful for the space
we're actually using it quite a lot uh within the at least network application but that's not what people
want actually people want to use that to make sure that when they want to actually use btc or even soul
token or even avalanche token any any kind of token they want they can actually find them uh in in
i would say a single place that that's the reason why six years for example do have a pretty much very
good product market fit uh also for platform for example uh or even if you look into into other
application uh it's very it's very easy to figure out that out uh it's not very easy for uh i would say
average uh crypto people uh mostly the builders but we only have to figure out that what people want is to make
things easy and want to make or use their money i would say uh in an easy way as well
yeah actually actually i'm sorry i'm good no no that's all you man uh i just wanted to add on to
what maxim said like personal experience until like 2023 end we had like built the you know storage
module and we had built the id module but when we were trying to do bd people were like clueless
why would i need certain this type of storage you know because also uh rwa wave was not there so and
then uh one fine day you know i i was like if we have to build it we have to build it all through like
like maxim was saying if user comes there he has all the features related with d5 or related with
specifically let's say pup decks but anything anything in and out all the features that's when
i think uh product starts adding value this was my personal learning as well hence we like ended up
implementing all the way from capturing id documents providing like support for 140 plus
you know nationalities across the globe capturing storage then exchange and in the end like providing
it as a proof uh to layer ones and layer twos and then we like integrated with the ibc module to provide
it across cosmos after doing all this that's then i could see like some traction coming in and i now i got
what i i was just thinking about uh my you know experience and when maxim was saying that uh pro so
it's a valid point that just building one part of the puzzle doesn't help we have to be like a feature
rich complete product that's a great point man and uh what one other thing i just wanted to add to that as
well as you mentioned about um like you know you started to iterate on this stuff that was really useful
for rwa related projects um but you was doing this 2020 where when people weren't really talking that
much about rwas there were a few actually um but not in any seriousness um and so this is just an
example that sometimes happens with founders of being painfully early so you can have like you know
it's a really solid idea that you know for sure is going to get traction and then you like you're
confident that this is going in the right direction but you're earlier than even the general like not
just the retail market but the actual builders in the market are so when you try to explain why this
product is very useful even the bd relationships are difficult because you have to educate even the
people that work in the industry and with situations like that it does sometimes happen with founders and i
i would just say to those guys like just try your best to hold on keep iterating so you can have
something that kind of like i call it scaffolding where you have something that um is like a sort of
interim step so that you can help people understand your product um but if you have built something you
know the benefit of being really early is that you can you've got loads of time to sharpen that up before
the rest of the market catches up and then you have like a deadly product right as soon as
as soon as people realize okay rwa is a thing this is going to be massive like most of the yield
like i heard some crazy stuff the other day most um i might butcher this so apologies um but i heard
that the majority of the yield in crypto that's not inflationary yield is rwa yield uh which is really
interesting i don't know exactly where that was pulled from but i have no reason to doubt the person
that told me um and so uh maker maker specifically yeah that's right man that's uh it did it did come
actually via somebody that was work in fact i know exactly so i've remembered you told me that
it's somebody that worked uh with maker dow for a long time which is uh the reason why i just twigged
them when you said that um but yeah interesting um and so you know maybe in 2020 people didn't realize
how much of a big deal um rwas were going to be um and i think like you know the fact that you guys
have managed you know it's four years down the line now you've managed to build a product that
you know you said 140 countries that means you're really primed to accept this which is going to be
you know like this huge wave of blockchain infrastructure for rwa projects over the next five years
yeah i hope so but surviving this long is very very tough man honestly saying especially if you have
not raised uh you know crazy amount of money uh i could survive because me and my brother we both could
code the first version it was just us coding the app chain and uh and the some people i had met in
some hackathons i then onboarded them because of them we could survive so our development cost was uh
pretty low uh and with that i guess fortunately you know we were able to but yeah it's all good
that kind of yeah i mean i mean like the idea of you know like you hear a lot about hacker houses
right this is something that this industry is like uh is very very common in this industry where you'll
get a bunch of development developers that will work together on a project or live together to keep
costs down cost can basically get to almost zero like just software costs hosting costs and stuff like
that and but the devs themselves just need a little money to keep going and i think those stories are
really inspirational like you know like kind of uh learning digital assets work with polygon in the
early days and there's a lot of stories like that from from that team um and those stories are the
best man like when when some group of guys go from you know coding they're all living together and
they're all coding like 18 hours a day making no money and then they blow up those are like the
really cool stories that come out of this industry
yeah no it's really good so our team actually just like for for reference did not you know live
together thank goodness that these guys no just kidding but um we uh we we we are remote uh we have
we're all over the world the co-founders there's four uh two of them in the us and then uh one in
costa rica one in india and so what i can say is like right out the gate we did we also did not have
a raise we had never raised before uh we were coming together after time and time again experiences with
other projects or ecosystems just kind of notating what's wrong and asking ourselves where would we
invest right now and the further we went along we still stayed in d5 but the pauses before answers
got longer and longer that was a sign to go and try to either collect the people who could build
this thing or come together and bring the engineers together and see if everybody could get aligned
and we were pleasantly surprised that you know over the last decade as web3 blockchain became more
prominent that we had been unknowingly curating and tailoring our forums or where we were involved to
where we ended up aligned already and it's and that's what's really cool about the space too so we
came together we were already aligned having ended up in certain groups where you know just through clicks
over the last decade and we didn't take a paycheck for nearly 18 months we couldn't and and still now
it's not we're not like paid uh paid fully um just like a little bit to get by uh but we needed to do
that and there was a time i mean we were taking out taking out personal loans to to make sure we could
get this thing over the line when uh we couldn't pay engineers and we couldn't afford the audit at the
same time but we're here we're gonna build this product and we did believe it and we still believe in
it so much that we're willing to put ourselves on the line fully and that's what we're doing before
anybody threw a dollar our way and you know we have a code of ethics that we go by and we have
and we make sure that we're fully aligned before we make decisions uh one of those um you know rules
that we have is just making sure we and we didn't know it was gonna we didn't know what we'd learn in
token 49 which is we weren't going to take a dollar of investment until we had a product to deliver but
we didn't know that the attention we pride ourselves in that but we also didn't know that
the messaging was going to become a product as well and so that's that's why it was such a big wake
up call because if we knew that then we would have been you know working on marketing and getting
different messaging out there alongside in parallel with the product and all the while we just thought
oh man we're going to deliver this badass product this badass product and we did it's so but in
hindsight we would have altered a few things you know nonetheless we're very happy to be where
we're at uh you know very close to launch but um you know for any founders out there you're listening
um and you have questions about you know how to navigate these things we're more than happy if
you want to you know ping me and you know get a little bit of you know what our story is or what
our journey was i'll be happy to share it with you because there's lots of places where we could have
saved a ton of time lots of places we could have saved a ton of money and if i had you know you
know anything to share that would help you absolutely i would i'd like to do that
rare in the space and i think everybody's starting to learn like let's raise some money now because i
think everybody's predicting the next 12 months to be pretty good so yeah props to you guys man it's such
a numbers game right you got to go out there and just talk to so many vcs and everybody to be able to
figure out what that narrative and marketing is that can be tied to your strong product but yeah
you don't get you don't come across a lot of uh wholesome teams like all of you guys so you know
i really hope it all comes through for you guys because you guys are putting in the grind and it's
good to see well i want to say that when we went from validators to founders or you know engineers from
trad fi to founders or just you know community members brick and mortar to founders we were very very
pleasantly surprised and welcomed by the cosmos community i mean to to the credit there's a lot
of banter back and forth but man talk about support i mean just from you know you go to every corner and
everybody just seems so willing to help and it was really refreshing because we had just gotten like
stomped on not just cosmos but just the space in general it was hard to find like a lot of you know
positive energy but it just seems to be like overflowing and it might seem like it's not sometimes but when
you talk to the engineers themselves and you hop on with with eng they're so ready to help they're
just ready and they want to they want to see us succeed you know the projects that we talked to
it's a lot of encouragement it's a lot of they're excited to see what we're building and and vice
versa of course so i think the wind at our back was that energy and it just reaffirms our decision to
build here wouldn't do it any other way if we were to change something it might be our approach and you
know how we got the messaging out a little bit but that's a small that's a small change as far as where
we're building and who we're building alongside you know that that we would absolutely not change if
we're to start another chain we would start it right here in cosmos so i i kind of agree on this
the dev dev uh ecosystem is really amazing and uh other founders i just have i mean one complaint
that this aa dow has to go down man like it has been popping up again and again for all the wrong reasons
i mean just i don't know what's the problem internally and i don't get involved in all this
but i just feel that uh you know sometimes these things affect other founders raising as well
because if the hub itself which is the technically it is not uh integrated in in any form to with other
chains but but everyone look look atom as the up to atom right like when we are raising we are saying hey
we are in the cosmos ecosystem although our each of us are a different project but uh we are all united
with one vision of uh you know hub and spoke model and whatnot so for from a vc perspective they do look at
atom token and all the you know things happening around atom around hub and sometimes it makes
things difficult uh i i just wanted to share my you know opinion i may be wrong maybe other people have
a different perspective on this but there could be things which could be done really simple and
and silently and scale scaling like silently scale your um ecosystem focus on the ecosystem why to focus
on all the other things which is happening around around atom accelerator and aa dow i don't know if you
guys agree to with me or disagree it's fine it's just my personal opinion can i do both can i agree and
disagree so yeah um if you are or if let's just say you know person a is having a trouble a raising and
they're and they're on social media and they're looking at all the new updates and the updates
are specifically tailored to your feed and your feed has that um then you're in subconsciously you're
going to justify why the raise is not going well and that's unfortunately during a raise is not an option
so you have to cut that feedback loop off completely you have to focus on what's right and it's okay
to go and talk about if you want to talk about cosmos that's fine but when you do it just be
like you know what they ask you what chain or they might not even ask you you'll just go into it but
you can say you know what we after looking at you know polygon and and thor chain and and name some of
the you know prominent ones out there that launched that they're going to know about and you don't need
to get into ibc or the politics or anything like that because as soon as you do then you're not going
to feel as great about it no matter what happens with the aa dow situation it's not affecting the stack
right now and the stack is what like polygon is built on right a lot of people don't even know
that a lot of vcs don't even know that so i would kind of like move back away from that uh from
anything that's giving you information like that now i'm not saying don't be involved i believe
nothing should be swept under the rug should be transparent you want to get involved be involved
but you if you're raising at the same time you're gonna have to pick a lane because it takes
everything inside you to raise because you put it all out on the table in front of the vc
and they're gonna they're gonna smell it right when you walk in if you're not feeling great
about the cosmos and that's not a great place to be seeing as how you're building here
so a lot of it's psychology um you have to feel great and just we used to tell people when they
come in you know for the sales staff hang your problems on the on that uh rack over there they
they're not allowed in this room and you have to tell yourself that so you're gonna have to separate
yourself from from your pitch and then and you know what you can have somebody check it for you
have somebody hey if anything big goes down let me know but other than this i'm i'm not i'm not
going to be checking out all the drama it just uh gets in my head and you'd be surprised that what
that energy when you bring it in um you're talking solutions and badass uh improvements and uh innovation
that's what the vcs are thinking about but if you're getting hung up on you know the native
problems that will pass that you're you know maybe upset about and i agree i don't like politics either
but uh that's why i don't subscribe to any of that thanks thanks mitch i'll keep it as an advice
for myself thank you it's it's it's all just part of the fun to navigate but i i'd like um i'd like
me to how you were saying that you felt a lot of support in the cosmos i think the beauty of the way
the cosmos is designed we always talk about how it just can grow exponentially right spin up an app
chain whenever you feel like it create a new token it's it's quite easy compared to a lot of
the places that inherently brings more growth than other ecosystems right so you other ecosystems let's
say solana or somebody else right it's it's very much more siloed so you not that that's a bad thing
it creates a lot of you know you can get traction a lot quicker and whatnot but i think that in the
long game if you really can use ibc and have things interconnected this this is the way that that growth
will kind of come together but that also brings a lot of community that where maybe there's this
corner over here that's not so fun and political but you can always find really smart really supportive
devs that will help you because they keep getting attracted to where we are so i think that that's a
huge advantage and why you guys also have found some good support hopefully we'll keep seeing some
more of that innovation and i don't know uh jack if you want to run longer here i know we're at the hour
we can we can leave some room for questions if anybody wants to ask or keep running um we can
i'm gonna have to hop right now but thank you guys yeah so we can uh close it we'll just do some
questions uh also just bear in mind that i can't hear half the speakers so i'm not having a great time
maxine and mitchell uh since about five minutes in i've not been able to hear a word you can say me and
melch have been uh dm in our group about it uh so apologies if i've missed or spoke over you
uh so yeah uh feel free to just do some closing thoughts um yep well i'm sad i thought you just
didn't like me so i feel a little bit better now but i was sad like the whole time and i mean like
i have a few tissues a little stack over here man but uh i wasn't one of the few that you were hearing
but now i know it was technical and it wasn't political um i just want to say you know we do wish
everybody that's building uh you know whether um you're helping to build as a community member
just contributing your time or being part of the regular discourse that happens or if you're
in the community um in any you know a dow dow council and stuff like that or an actual builder
we thank you because it is and i'll actually i'll definitely double down on that the cosmos is badass
um there's always going to be some discourse there's always going to be some stuff going down but it's
better than sweeping all that under the rug right so might not feel great but that's not what
everybody's paying attention to they're they're not they're not looking at that they're gonna look
at how excited you are they're gonna look at that um thank you to everybody here um especially uh the
host the main host who i love and adore but who was not paying attention to me um and everybody take
care have a great day thank you yeah too bad he couldn't hear all the the wise words you're sharing
mitchell but that's okay i could uh maxine if you want to go in and also leave a good promo for
alice because people need to know what you guys are doing and where they can follow you
thank you yeah i would say just come and hang out on this quarter and then uh follow us on x and you
will see that we are actually close to to the lounge there will be many many many good things to come
mostly related to to nfts along at least network and we are trying to actually uh i would say bring
nfts to an io level as well as our certified space we are totally on all the fronts and we are very very
happy to i would say have every single people that want to contribute to release one of the key aspect
of it is since the very beginning is all about the feedback we get from the guys we we have within
the community it's actually why now incentivize testnet is existing since the very beginning and
we actually building something that will meet your needs like i do love the sentence we say which says
like find your users where they are and don't try to bring users to you just go finding them and it's
what actually we are trying to do so always happy to actually talk to every single one of you even in
dms you want to come to this core that will be very happy to to answer your questions or even help
you to for anything you you might help on so always a pleasure to be there like every single time we
come to the kinetic space it's also it's always pretty pretty cool pretty amazing and also mostly because
melch is here so thank you melch uh thank you kinetics and uh yeah happy to to see you
testing our all-in-one d5 application as soon as you want yeah thanks everybody i do want to say just
real quick on the most technical level ever just so you understand what we're doing is uh gogo power
rangers these mighty morphine power rangers and that's pretty much what we're doing bringing everybody
together that's why it works that's the new ellis slogan right i like it go go power rangers
hyper sign vikram what do you got man where can people follow you and what do you guys uh give
yourself a nice little shill uh i would i would just say anyone who would need uh on-chain kyc please
reach out to me uh i'm definitely in touch with at least guys and happy to integrate with with them
recently um we we we had a set of smart contracts that was sponsored by um uh nibiru chain and we
finished that integration and now we are deploying in other chains um and happy to you know integrate
with other chains and also if you guys are coming to cost movers uh you know would love to say hi to
all of you thank you awesome do you want to give a quick shout out about cosmos first dates times where
people can get tickets just in case anybody from the audience is interested oh yeah cost movers is
happening on 23rd and 24th of october in dubai um oh yeah and uh i think tickets are
out now uh there are different type of uh tickets that you can buy uh all the way starting from 300
dollars i guess um but yeah so so in dubai october 23rd 3 and 24. nice sounds good i think uh uh crypto
ceo who we work with occasionally will be definitely be out there because he lives in in dubai and he's uh
got a big presence over there does a bunch with uh cosmos events um i've just authorized robin to
come up so robin is uh i uh not really sure community member um have you got a question for
the panel here hey actually i think i was invited on this space and i've only just been able to join
because i was running a space on the finance uh side of things so i'm the founder um project leader
amulet finance um and we've just been talking to zaki on our space um which was pretty cool uh but i
wanted to come on here for sure and meet you all and uh just say i really appreciate um being invited
um and to tell you that yeah amulet finance went live in the last uh 10 days um and it basically it's
a way of enabling people who want to access their future rewards early um to borrow a um non-liquidatable
loan against their um atom or other tokens and basically you stake your atom or your lst of atom
or other lp token or whatever and you can uh sorry not yield token and then you can borrow in
um a synthetic so you go and get that am atom and you can take it elsewhere and do cool stuff with it
that's the plan um so we're currently running a um rewards program called ingots it's live now
uh and if you lp into um atom uh sorry uh d atom or st atom on the astral pool with am atom you will
earn ingots that's pretty cool uh feel free uh to drop a link to that in the comment section because
i know we have people that listen to this recorded so although you've only just dropped in at the end
here it'd be good if anybody's uh listening uh to the recording they can go and follow that thread
and see where it goes yeah it sounds pretty interesting though um hearing a lot about um
like derivative tokens and stuff recently um and it's like just more innovation right more
more financialization of the space and it's always cool to see these things when they pop up
um yeah i think it's yeah i think it's needed in cosmos i think it's really really important that we get
more um access to value for users because my thesis at least is that the reason defy hasn't fully taken
off in cosmos is just that there's too much of a hurdle to overcome the staking rate and people
don't necessarily want to swap their tokens into another token so yeah the way i mean it works is
that you can actually bridge atom into neutron and then it gets staked with ivc back onto cosmos hub
but you then mint amaton to play with so that's the idea so yeah definitely and we're keen to integrate
with other protocols so anyone on here who can see any which way that we can help work
and grow the pie as they say then we're really keen are you guys only on uh ibc chains or do you do
other stuff we're starting out on um the interchange so any ibc chains that we see that there's a sustainable
yield strategy that's that's where we're starting out but we're also i mean we're built in a way that
is not dependent on cosmism so uh there are definitely other chains that we are looking at
that we can engage with and and that's part of the sort of aim of enabling anyone's favorite asset to be
enabled on amulet but we are first and foremost we are cosmos space builders
okay interesting uh i may have a lead for you um i'll uh yeah i could i could follow up after this
all right do i just do i just post it underneath or is there yeah just put it put it in the
comments section ah okay yeah um and dm me uh on this account and i'll with the tg handle and i'll
follow up with that lead okay awesome thank you over the next few days sounds good uh shame you could just
come in at the end here but it's interesting also just before we all go um just wanted to throw this
out there as like a final question um because you you mentioned something interesting about the staking
rates and stuff um what impact if any do you think that the you know like a lot of cosmos chains of this
28 day unbonding period or long unbonding periods what impact if any do you think that's had on
the evolution of d5 i think it has had um a bit of a distorting effect because if you're sitting there
thinking i'm going to deploy atom in a pool or i'm going to put atom just in my wallet and
delegate it then inherently you're um weighing up earning 15 or whatever the current rate is um
just by passively staking versus putting it in a pool um and i think that has been a limiting factor
because fundamentally although obviously everyone's using stable coins and other stuff as well um the
reality is is that you know the the tokens of the networks that we're using in cosmos they're the
ones that potentially people want to be able to actually do stuff with and and and deploy in d5
the most and so if they're all locked up in staking it it is a limiting factor in terms of how much
liquidity is in the ecosystem and then therefore how much the whole thing can grow and i mean we're
seeing even like we've just launched we're now like really seeking liquidity um but the great
thing about i mean hopefully is that as it grows you kind of mint your own liquidity and you grow you
grow your your base from having the ability to go and mint your own liquidity and do something else
with it um and that's that's meant to kind of overcome the issue so if i'm sitting there thinking well
do i own 15 but it's just by staking or do i lose out on 15 by by doing something else with it you
don't have to make that decision anymore you you can stake it by um amulet and then you can also
mint and do something else with your with your um atom so it's interesting lst's aim to solve that
problem as well but in a different way which is to aggregate your yield and your principal um but you
have to still wait for yield to come in so if you want to access the yield without selling your token
you have to borrow against it and then you risk getting liquidated so yeah yeah i think that's
that's that's it's really interesting um worth following for sure and just seeing how these
things develop i think uh there's like wildly different approaches to staking and different
ecosystems like you have if you followed the ve stuff um that some uh protocols were doing where
you would you can lock up for like a long period of time some of them i think i saw one the longest
period was like five years yeah and then that gives you you know you can choose basically to have like
really powerful voting power for governance uh for those uh those protocols which is interesting
you know so you can vote yourself like you know basically the idea is that some teams let's say it
was a decks that had these tokenomics you know some teams could then use that to vote themselves
rewards if they locked up for a long time um and then other other protocols have like you know
basically no unbonding period or very short so it's interesting to see like over the long term what uh
approach will win out but i think like for me um i i get the need for stability but i also think like
you know anything that increases the velocity of funds flowing around the ecosystem is good
because every time their funds flow through the ecosystem fees are earned uh people your protocols
benefit from volume and tvl and stuff so my opinion is anything that doesn't slow that velocity is a
positive thing definitely definitely i think that's what we need to see we need to see everything just
moving moving around more that's that's how people can realize you know sort of the value of the
ecosystem it's one of the reasons that solana is so popular it's so effective at generating fees like
not just the protocol but the the actual projects on solana because the money is moving around the
ecosystem so fast from meme coin to meme coin essentially uh but you know into other stuff as well
that every time it moves some platform is generating fees right and that's really really useful and so
that that that fee pi on solana is absolutely massive like you know like i mentioned the uh
pumped up forms like 100 million in fees so i think yeah it's uh anything that increases velocity is good
yeah with you with that cool uh sean did you have any final thoughts i know he's going to wrap up
there a few minutes ago so now final thoughts are if anybody's going to cosmoverse let me know i'll
be out there at the end of this month as well and uh if you guys need any leads this is all we do
we find leads and connect people and uh yeah that's that's what we do inside and outside the cosmos so
shoot me dm if you're if you need help hopefully you guys don't get rained out this time
yes i don't feel like i don't feel like puking on that landing again that was some rough turbulence
that was wild uh and then we have you know when brussels was uh if if uh cc in brussels a few months
ago it was like raining again and i was like this is ridiculous it's like you know and then when we
arrived in singapore on uh i arrived in singapore on the tuesday and then that night there was like a
crazy monsoon type thing i was thinking like what is going on here like somebody's got it in for the
crypto industry some like uh either weather modification person or god or whatever i don't
know but yeah pretty interesting um okay guys cool so this has been episode 15 um interesting even though
i could only hear half of it so hopefully we'll uh see you guys in a couple of weeks for episode 16
we'll bring you more innovation more insights and uh looking forward to hearing some stuff from
uh the cosmos event in person in dubai uh usually some really good uh stories and
stuff come out of those events so it should be good all right guys thanks for joining appreciate it
