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Inside Scoop - Edge Wallet
Recorded: Jan. 10, 2026 Duration: 2:19:36Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorChain is set to launch its new app layer, Rujira, which will introduce innovative features such as a token launchpad, lending capabilities, and enhanced privacy options. The community is buzzing with excitement over the potential for increased yield opportunities and strategic partnerships, as well as discussions around integrating privacy tokens like Monero into the ecosystem.
Full Transcription
Thank you. how do i sound thumbs up if you sound good man can you hear me well yeah I can hear you just fine you
sound amazing as well welcome everybody give everyone a second to pile in please share the
space I am so excited for today's space we got a really good friend coming in to talk with us
very early probably one of the earliest contributors of Thorchain I'll talk more
about that in a second when they're here but let's get this introduction out of the way, guys. So welcome one and all. ThorChain is the first decentralized
exchange to swap real Bitcoin, and now you can use every Bitcoin wallet in the world,
and you don't have to connect it to a website. Same with ETH, XRP, BNB, Tron, Doge, and more.
Basically the layer ones, real layer ones on ThorChChain and eventually you'll be able to swap
any token from any wallet. ThorChain is turning into a full layer one liquidity engine where apps
can be built on top of it. The new app layer we have Rujira unlocks lending perps bitcoin back
stable coin token launchpad NFT prediction markets and much more. ThorChain isn't just a decentralized exchange. It's becoming
the protocol of pure, unsensible liquidity, LFG. Swapping on ThorChain is permissionless. There is
no KYC. Anyone in the world can use it. And to swap on ThorChain, go to ThorChain.org and click
on swap. New features and functionality will be added to the website over the next few months.
If you encounter any issues whatsoever, there's an email button you can pick to make a ticket for help. ThorChain's token is
called Rune. That is spelled R-U-N-E. You do not need to buy or hold Rune to place a swap on ThorChain,
but the fees are deducted from your swap are used to buy Rune, and this is the Rune that yield that
goes to liquidity pools and nodes. There are no block rewards on ThorChain. 100% of the yield is real,
and ThorChain is currently deflationary with 5% of the revenue being burned.
If you hold rune on a centralized exchange, what are you doing? You need to withdraw it
into self-custody because those tokens can be used to short sell rune and drive the price down on us,
right? And once in self-custody, look into bonding your rune to a node to earn some yield and help secure the network,
which can also help the rune price go up.
A really great site to do that is runebond.com.
Very easy.
All you have to do is find a node, request a whitelist, and bond your rune.
And talking about bonding your rune, guys, and node operators,
there is a really great node operator,
and there's other ones, Runtard.
He is helping node operators come into existence.
And so if you have some technical skill,
you know, some Kubernetes skills,
or if you are interested in learning,
you want to take that challenge,
we will help you.
So please reach out to Runtard.
You can reach out to me, Kenton.
There's a lot of people who can reach out.
We will get you the materials you need.
We recently just added a couple new node operators to the network.
We want to keep this going.
We need to improve the decentralization of ThorChain.
So please reach out.
We will get you going.
Runtard is at Runtard, R-U-N-E, Tard on Twitter.
Silly name, but a great man.
Don't doubt it.
ThorChain also has another token called TCY.
This token is kind of like a preferred stock
where 10% of the protocol's revenue goes to these token holders.
If you deposit crypto into Sabres or took out a loan on ThorChain,
make sure to claim your TCY token so you can start collecting this yield.
And anyone can buy the TCY token on ThorChain.org as well.
There's a ThorChain community Discord and Telegram.
You can learn all about ThorChain to make all kinds of friends.
To find the links, go to at Thor community account on x guys this space is geared towards
anyone on your ThorChain journey where you're an OG or your brand spanking new there will be
something for everyone here and if anyone has any questions this is an open stage of course
we do take audience participations we do have Paul in the house I don't know if he's a speaker yet
sometimes it's bugged um we'll get him up here, but just a quick introduction, guys. I had the
pleasure of meeting Paul in real life, and he's a great guy. He's one of the earliest contributors
to ThorChain. Fantastic. Back when ThorChain was just a baby and we were trying to get new
integrations on, Edgewalt was one of the first. This is before TrustWallet. This is
before all the major ones. And Paul and his team were absolutely instrumental in teaching us
how we should approach new wallets, new interfaces to get 14 added. We've learned a lot. We were very
young in those days. We've come a long way. And I'm so glad that Paul is here with us. I'm going to go ahead and join his co-host here.
One second.
All right.
I think we got it here.
Excellent.
So we'll go ahead and get Paul up here.
Sometimes X glitches.
Okay.
He is a speaker.
I'm going to go ahead and kick it to Kenton for an introduction and then we'll go to Paul.
Go ahead, Kenton.
Yeah.
Thanks, man.
My name is Kenton Ralph Toes.
I have a fund that invests in Rune and runs nodes in the network. So I'm
a bond provider and node operator on ThorChain. And I'm
also running ThorChain's marketing team. And I've been
busy working on that here the last few months. Yeah, I think
that's good for me. Paul, do you want to give yourself a quick introduction
for everyone?
Are we mic checked to start, I guess?
Can you guys hear me? I can't hear Paul.
I can hear you, Kenton. So I had to run away from the computer for a second.
I can hear you.
Paul, can you check your mic?
Maybe we'll drop him back down and bring him back up.
Yeah, I couldn't see him request as a speaker.
I had to go try to ask him to be a speaker.
All right. How's that?
Oh, there we go.
Yep, good old spaces.
Oh, I know. When you're speaking, when you're go. Yep. Good old spaces. Oh, I know.
When you're speaking,
when you're not.
Yep.
It's so true.
It's terrible.
How are you doing, Paul?
Milan can send rockets to Mars,
but we can't actually reliably speak to each other.
But, oh, well, here we are.
Yeah, no, doing great.
Happy Saturday, everybody.
Thanks for having me on the spaces.
Yeah, man.
Love having you, dude.
And for those who don't know uh please guys give paul a follow
follow um edge wallet right like these guys are our friends okay um thanks so much you know my
my protocol uh alex he said something very interesting he was on a monero um space i think
was yesterday the day before i can't remember uh too many things going on in my life i'm a crazy
person but um he said something very interesting and i really liked it you know he was talking about monero of
course but you know it's all these defi people all these defi protocols where your wallet or
your protocol like thor chain right we are essentially all doing we all have the same
mission we're just approaching that mission from different angles and we're all meeting in the
middle and i really feel like we're getting to that point what say angles, and we're all meeting in the middle.
And I really feel like we're getting to that point.
Let's say you, Paul.
What's your idea on that?
Yeah, we are.
And definitely, not to go right into what we've been trying to do, but we're all trying to get to economic freedom.
I think that's where Monero, that's where ThorChain is.
that's where Thor chain is.
We're getting to censorship resistance.
You know, we're getting to censorship resistance.
And I like that you mentioned that we're trying to take it
from multiple angles because you realize that as humans,
we're all different people.
And especially from like an interface point of view
and how we want to interface with technology,
we're going to be looking for and also resonating
with different interfaces and different products.
And so we're taking it from one angle.
Some of our competitors are taking it from another.
And there's no way to get that 90, 99% adoption without a good handful of options.
Now, will there be hundreds or thousands?
Probably not.
Maybe there'll be a dozen or a couple dozen, but we're refining what are those different methods and interfaces
and experiences that the masses need in order to drive adoption of that end goal that we
all care about.
And so we're going to take it with one angle, happy to go into the details as the spaces
evolves onto what's nuanced and different about what we're doing.
But you're right, we are trying to achieve that same goal. And there's going to be a bit of a battle.
And there's going to be competition.
There's going to be coopetition and whatnot.
But you're right.
And at the end of the day, I think for those of us that are truly principled,
we just want to see that goal achieved.
Whether it's with what we're individually contributing to and building
or what other people are building.
But we just we
just want to get to that end goal because you know that is why bitcoin originally when it was built
and crypto as a whole why it's compelling in the first place you know there's obviously some aspect
of number go up but um number go up wouldn't have been the only reason why there is literally a crypto conference just
about every single day of the year you know if it would number up go up wouldn't be the only reason
it had to be something compelling about the technology and what's compelling about it is
that aspect of truly disintermediating and uh bringing that freedom to transact to all of us
transact to all of us.
Patriot, do you mind if I jump in?
Yeah, go ahead, brother.
I'm glad we kind of jumped into economic freedom.
And I like I'd like to maybe just kind of for Paul, not maybe not everyone's familiar
with you or Edge Wallet and kind of take it back to the beginning and your journey into
crypto starting Edge Wallet.
And I'm assuming it starts with economic freedom
because that's what the early people in crypto were all about
and which I feel like is missing right now
or is at least being kind of drowned out with number go up and type stuff.
So if you wouldn't mind just giving a little brief history of you,
your journey in crypto and in starting Edge Wallet because it's it's important for everyone to know about it
and interesting too yeah so my journey didn't start with economic freedom in all honestly
before i knew about crypto before i discovered bitcoin i did discover bitcoin gosh now 12 years
ago about 2013 and i think where you know a lot of people come into what you'd call the conspiracy theorist slash, you know, upset with big establishment through different paths.
Some people get there through the financial paths.
I actually got there through what I'd call like more the health and wellness path and more like health freedom.
That's my path to get there.
And having discovered Bitcoin, I realized that money drives just about all of it.
It drives the narrative.
It drives who controls what we have access to, whether it be on a financial side, which
is what crypto is more about, or a health, wellness side, food side.
And so I felt like this was kind of the rug to pull underneath the entire system, right? If you
can pull the financial rug, you can gain back control over all aspects of the narrative. And
I saw that when I entered the space, I met a ton of people that were aligned in the same sense as I was with, let's say, not just financial freedom, but all aspects of the narrative that government and the large establishment have kind of fed us over decades and how much of it has been misleading and a lie. And so these were my people. I was surrounded by what many within a space like this would call the statists and the bootlickers.
And that was kind of like the family and friends.
And I was one of the few that stood out.
And for once, I felt like I was surrounded by like minds.
And that's what kind of brought me really full, full circle and made me say, this is,
this is the only space that I'll, I genuinely care about.
And I want to drive to full mass adoption because we can, whatever path I can, I can
take to bring someone into the space of, I guess, freedom as a whole, right?
If I can get them there through the financial side, through the health and wellness side,
through, um, whatever vision that they feel like
has been lacking in the world, then great.
They'll eventually come full circle.
And as we kind of started the spaces,
you know, there's different people
and they have different visions
and they have different ways to interface with technology.
We need to build all the different ways
to get them into this ecosystem.
But anyway, so that's kind of where I'd started.
You kind of alluded to a little bit on the issues with our space today, Kenton, you'd
mentioned that hasn't been kind of co-opted.
Is it too much of the number go up?
Yeah, I think it is a bit too much of the number go up.
And ironically, I want the number to go up, but I think we've taken the wrong path to get there. And I think we've taken a path that actually inhib now, that will give me number go up now,
that unfortunately delays the longer term true adoption, that will get you the rock solid,
true exponential and sticky number go up that can't go away. And it's much like humanity,
humanity's like that, you know, there's a popular saying, we don't want to take vitamins,
Many is like that.
You know, there's a popular saying, we don't want to take vitamins, we want to take drugs, right?
And so drugs are for the quick fix.
They're the quick duct tape fix to whatever problem you have, but they're not the long-term solution.
In the same sense, I think the ecosystem has wanted that quick fix, the quick high.
fixed a quick high, you know, like, oh, great, my coin now has an ETF.
You know, like, ooh, great, my coin now has an ETF grill.
Well, that's the quick high that gets people to grab the token because they think it's
good news.
Does it actually drive long-term adoption of the utility of a chain?
Well, I don't see how.
I don't see how that actually drives true utility, but it's the quick high, much like
drugs give you the quick high, but then don't really last long-term.
I love it, man.
I couldn't agree with more of what you said.
I'd really love to dig into and unpack your health and wellness beliefs
and journey, and I'm curious if you've read the Fiat Standard
by Saifedean Amos, and it's kind of, you came to the same conclusions 10, 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, the Fiat Standard, I have not read, or the Bitcoin Standard.
I've seen enough clips of it, and I'm not a Bitcoin maxi. And so Seifedean, I've never met the guy,
but there is a once a year retreat conference.
Some of you may have heard of it.
Some people hate it because it's exclusive
called the Satoshi Roundtable.
And at one of the breakfasts,
people just grabbed a table at the cafe
and I was at a table with like six folks.
Seifedean came over and asked if a seat was taken i said sorry it's all full and half like more than
half the table said you know dude you like unfollowed me on twitter and i don't even know
who you are i haven't even met and and he's like yeah sorry i'm kind of quick at doing that
and um for the for those of us that are much more open to a lot of different protocols, the pros and cons of a lot of protocols, he at least at that period of time was incredibly, incredibly toxic to us.
And so while I don't recall even interacting with him, I was also unfollowed.
Well, not unfollowed, but I was blocked.
I was blocked by him.
And so I don't necessarily subscribe
to that like like the the bitcoin standard now fiat standard it was a newer one i don't
i have not read that um and so uh i can't give a genuine opinion on the followings of that book
but um i know that there is i've seen some clippings about its correlation to how we think about food.
Time preference, I think, is kind of the tie between the two.
And I was on a podcast with Peter McCormick quite a few years ago, probably 2018 or so, where that was the topic of discussion was time preference.
where that was the topic of discussion was time preference.
And humanity has this general challenge because of time preference.
And it relates to both money, it relates to health and wellness,
it relates to drugs, it relates to the products that we buy.
And it is a massive, massive hurdle to get over our desire for the quick and easy.
our desire for the quick and easy. And it's, I think some of the wealthiest people are the few
that can overcome that desire, where they're willing to sacrifice the short-term gain for
some of the long-term kind of investments, you could say. In a way, everything is an investment
in life, right? And you've got to see that longer term investment in order to be truly successful in whatever facet of life you deem as success.
You know, it's not always just money.
Yeah.
And by the way, I definitely was not endorsing Saifuddin as a person.
He's definitely toxic.
Yeah, he's a good example of, I actually think
the toxic maxis like that hope to keep people away from Bitcoin. But I do separate the person
and their argument, you know, so the, yeah, his, his, the fiat standard book was,
his his the fiat standard book was it well even the bitcoin standard it wasn't like a maxi uh
agenda thing um and same with the fiat standard but yeah the gist of the fiat standard was um
how fiat money affects people's time preference in in everything right and just like you said
with food and the quality of the food and in our care And, and so I was, I actually thought he did a
good job of, of like, walking through the different industries and how fiat money is,
is corrupted them all. And so I'm curious if that, did you come to that conclusion yourself 15 years
ago? Like, how did, how did you, if you're into health and wellness, how did you make that, where was your connection between improving, you know, your, your physical
mental health and others and, and, and crypto? How did you, how do you make that connection? How did
you, how did that lead to edge wallet? You know, if you want to be healthy, how do you, how do you
make it, how does a crypto wallet make me? Yeah, definitely a few steps in that journey to be able to connect the dots between that.
It really started with, you know, obviously having health issues myself.
And then also having friends and family have health issues.
You know, my dad had and died of cancer.
I had a long-term pet that did as well, almost in the exact same year.
A grandmother and entire mom's family that is rife with health
issues specifically, not so much cancer, but diabetes. And then actually, when you get touched
by that, you start doing your own research, right? You don't just listen to the mainstream media,
you don't just listen to the doctors that are your first, I don't call it line of defense,
but the first people that you had originally talked to. And you start coming across research that has been
research and news that's been kind of squashed and been hidden from the mainstream public.
And while it was a while ago, and I honestly don't know, I mean, there's a lot of debate about
this one documentary
that I had had watched it at least opened my eyes to say well let's look at other other methods
and it was a documentary called I think it was it was about a doctor I can't remember the name
of the documentary was on a doctor named Brzezinski that had done some cancer research. Now, he was still in a way not the
natural wellness type of angle. He'd still taken the angle of building medication and drugs to
cure cancer. But what was eye-opening was the effort that government had gone to to squish
all of his efforts, because had he been successful, all the traditional
methods to fight cancer would become obsolete.
And we're talking billions of dollars from big pharma just going out the door.
And his offices were raided and documents and research papers burned.
His license revoked, even though he had dozens of patients who would appear in court and testify on his behalf of the success that they had through his clinical trials.
And so I said, what the hell?
That was my first eye-opener.
What the hell is going on?
Shouldn't we be championing these efforts?
Shouldn't agencies like American Cancer Society be championing some of these efforts?
And that's where I went down the rabbit hole.
Like, well, what are these agencies for?
And realizing that the money going to these agencies and nonprofits wasn't to cure anything, right?
It was to continue to simply champion that same narrative that we've had for decades.
And who's in control over this?
The largest institutions in our world.
How are they able to retain control over this?
Well, it's lobbying into government.
And then who's able to enforce the narrative?
The government who
then controls the media as well. And then of course, how are they able to stay in such strong
control over all of this? Well, just like you had mentioned in Saifedean's book, it's the fiat
standard. Them being able to print money to fund the narrative that we all just sop up like sponges.
That's one angle of it, right?
So their ability to print, which is the ability to fund whatever narrative they choose,
everything from funding wars to funding big pharma, all of that is purely funded by fiat.
That was the first kind of angle that I started to see,
being able to, or see that crypto and Bitcoin initially
when it first came out and when I first learned about it,
being able to circumvent this kind of problem in our world.
From the viewpoint of the connection to time preference
and how fiat kind of gives us that
or motivates that very, very short-term time preference,
like I want something now, I want it today.
I actually came across, or I started thinking about that after I read a book called
Born to Run. I'm not sure if any of you have read it. I don't read a ton of books, admittedly.
It's one of the few that I've read, but it really was very eye-opening because
the author in Born to Run talked about how humans are born to run, right? And through long aspects
of humanity, we've been built to be able to run, run long, long, long distances, far, far longer
than we would think. Like we think a marathon is long. He discovered a tribe in Mexico that um, uh, that runs hundreds of miles on a regular basis, probably like weekly.
Um, but our, our psyche also like doesn't want to, right. It's like, Oh God, I got to get up
and do it and go running. Um, why is it that we are so challenged with wanting to run, but yet
we, you know, millions of us do it. And we have an innate
desire. We're one of the few animals, if not the only animal in the world that has this innate
desire to optimize, right? If you think about it, how many other animals generation after generation
will optimize their world around them, right? Almost none, right? Like, sure, birds know how
to build a nest, and that's technology if you think
about it but that nest hasn't gotten better over decades and over generations it's kind of the same
same bird's nest but here we are now we've built ai that has been able to optimize our
communication between people optimize how we research um no other animal has been able to do
that especially in the speed that we've been
able to. And why is it? It's because we want to optimize. In a way, it's because we're lazy.
Optimize is the nice way of saying it. Lazy is the harsh way of saying it. And Born to Run
kind of expressed that dichotomy of humans, is that we're both very efficient, right? And our efficiency
is how we're able to survive in contrast to the Neanderthals. But that efficiency is also what
makes us not want to use our energy. It's what makes us want to build things that do stuff that
we don't want to do so we can be a bit lazier, right? Like, you know, Uber was so successful because we were lazy to sit there, you know,
and try to find a cab.
Instead, I want to push a button and boom,
one shows up in five minutes.
And now people complain when they have to wait
10 minutes for an Uber.
Whereas before, a 30-minute wait for a cab
was pretty standard.
Anyway, this is a huge roundabout circle.
I'm not sure people want to talk about Thorchain and Edge
or whatnot, but, you know, an aspect of humanity that is our challenge is that time preference.
It's innate in us because we want to optimize. It's innate in us because we want to be efficient.
And that efficiency is innate in us because we are inherently lazy.
And that's why we watch something quick and now.
And we're not willing to wait.
That's why there's sub 1% of the population is incredibly successful because they're the ones, they're the few ones that can, you know, truly invest in a longer term time preference.
And so roundabout way of kind of describing how I got to this realization.
And it wasn't through Seyfedine's book.
It was through a combination of, like I said, health and wellness and having family that ran into their health issues because of, once again, time preference.
And then reading this book that opened my eyes and saw how humanity was built a certain way and realizing that that is our inherent challenge and it's inherent challenge and
everything that I want to build like I feel like I build for a long time preference but I'm
surrounded by people which is everybody right that that isn't and in a way sometimes that means you
build a product that you know when I say build a product, it's not necessarily Edge specifically, but, you know, the things that I want to offer people or I want them purchasing and the businesses I want to support are ones that maybe aren't going to be long-term successful because people are a bit too short-sighted.
so is it excuse me excuse me sorry is it so is it fair to say that you subscribe to
fix the money fix the world uh yeah no i'd say that's i i strongly subscribe to that
and i think the part where that phrase goes wrong is we all define fix the money differently
you know like there's what five
characteristics of money i don't have them all off the top of my head you know is it store of value
medium of exchange unit of account blah blah and so since there's so many definitions of money
when we say fix the money what aspect of it do we fix um and we fix all of them um do i prioritize
one aspect of money versus another? But yeah, Kenton,
I 100% agree, fix the money, fix the world. Money is too many things. Which one do we
fix first?
That's a great point. Well, maybe can you tie that into Edge Wallet? Depending on your view, how you understand money, how you want to usurp Big Brother's control, how did that lead to Edge Wallet?
And then what is Edge Wallet doing to help with that?
Yeah, so when I first got into Bitcoin, I think the biggest challenge was self-custody.
I saw that dichotomy of self-custody in 2013. The two biggest companies at the time I
got into Bitcoin, and they were both Bitcoin only, one is still one of the biggest companies. The
other is huge, but by and large, most people haven't heard of it anymore. So obviously Coinbase.
Coinbase was one of the biggest companies, at least to American users.
And then also Blockchain.info. Raise your hand if anyone knows what Blockchain.info is here in the audience.
And while they're still one of the largest companies, they've kind of faded.
But for people that don't know the history of these two companies, back in 2013, the founders had actually looked at partnering and joining, I think, it was a Y Combinator, I believe.
But they fundamentally disagreed on one aspect of Bitcoin, which was who holds the keys.
Blockchain Info was self-custody and of course coinbase wasn't
right they fundamentally agreed on that you know brian armstrong was like no we can hold the keys
um and you know still be successful still be secure and still give people freedom
and i can't remember the original name ben i believe been something it was uh
the original founder of Blockchain.info,
which was originally just a block explorer. And that's all it was, hence the name Blockchain.info.
And then they'd launched a self-custody wallet. And his, you know, fundamentally, no, we needed to
keep self-custody. But of course, and he said, it's okay that it's clunky, it's hard to use,
and people very easily lose keys, but that's the way we needed to go.
And they couldn't agree.
And so they split.
And I think it was only Armstrong that went into Y Combinator, and blockchain info went its own separate ways.
We can see longterm what unfortunately succeeded,
which was the custodial side of that split.
Blockchain Info, still a large company, still a ton of wallets,
they still make a bunch of money.
Unfortunately, they've actually gone into more of a custodial route,
and they've launched what hasn't been very successful, but they launched a fully centralized exchange as well.
And so in that time in 2013, I said, gosh, we wanted to find something that bridged the two
and would allow for that user experience Brian Armstrong was so adamant about and said was
necessary in the world, but also retained the self-custody that blockchain.info
said was so critical and we believed in.
And, you know, you'd mentioned, you know, how does this bridge into why we had built
Edge?
I had, in my analysis of why I cared about crypto and why I cared about Bitcoin at the time when it was only
Bitcoin, all of that fundamentally felt like would go away. Everything I cared about would go away
if the world only adopted Bitcoin or adopted it in a large percentage, call it 30 to 50 percent,
through custodial means. I started asking myself, well, okay, would we able to have freedom to transact between each
other and disintermediate all the payment processors, which are really the banks and the
banks, which are the ones that have co-opted the governments? Would we actually be able to
disintermediate them? And I don't say make them go away a hundred percent%, but really, really limit what their value is in our world?
No, not if we all went fully custodial.
That wouldn't happen.
Would we even be able to ensure
the monetary rules of Bitcoin,
such as the 21 million?
And I asked myself that and started studying you know
a little bit of economics ago you know something we tried this with gold before right so gold has
while it's not a fixed quantity a very limited quantity as far as what we could physically
you know mine um but then as soon as we implemented banking on top of gold, we printed dollars which were backed by gold and there was somewhat of a one-to-one mapping between the two, we gave too much power to the layer two.
You know what you can call dollars layer two of gold until 71. Dollars were not a a currency they were a payment method for gold
and so uh that layer two effectively became more powerful than the layer one because that's what
we all used and so that mirrors the same problem we'll have if all of bitcoin or all of crypto
is in the hands of custodians we don don't actually know what the true quantity will be,
and the quantity can eventually get de-pegged,
especially if you use it as a payment method.
So I said, okay, well, that's not going to work long-term.
Okay, self-custody is the most important thing.
I came to that conclusion.
We have to make sure that this ecosystem adopts
self-custody. How are we going to do that? Well, I tried to use it. I've lost some crypto
in self-custody. Early on, I was using a Mycelium wallet, which required you to
print a piece of paper and write down a 16-digit code on the piece of paper. Mycelium was only on mobile,
so I had to print it from mobile, which there was no air print at the time.
On Android, there was no way to print either. You had to figure out a way of emailing yourself
to your desktop, printing out this piece of paper, writing a code on it, and make sure you don't lose
it and no one sees it. All of that was the big hurdle in self-custody.
I'm like, how are we going to drive economic freedom if we force people down what I think is a 3% maximum of the population is willing to do this kind of path?
And so, okay, let's build a better system.
Let's build something that competes with the Coinbase, but gives the benefits of the blockchain.info. And then Edge was born. Although at the
time it wasn't called Edge, it was called AirBits. And our company is still AirBits Inc.
But we had built just that and it's been iterated over the years. And that's what people will
experience when they try Edge today. It is something that goes back to those years of trying to solve that dual problem, right? Keep the
self-custody, keep the privacy, but give you the experience that you'll get that's very similar to
a centralized service. Nice. Patriot, do you want to jump in i've been asking questions no you guys have been doing great and uh
i i completely agree with paul said i actually really like that point i think that was very well
said about thinking of fiat dollars whatever as a layer two um basically becoming more powerful
than the layer one of gold being so powerful in powerful, in fact, that it can detach itself.
And this is why we're in the problem we are in today.
And I think that harkens back
to what you were talking about,
people choosing convenience over the tenants,
the fundamentals, the principles
of which this industry is built upon.
And I think that's a UX problem, right?
Like it's just, there's friction there.
And kind of also harkens back to you say
about people typically being lazy creatures or wanting, you know, fast gratification, right?
And so that's what I think was really great about Edge Wallet and everything we're building. I mean,
we have other protocols that are trying to fix problems. Like I see Mocha in the audience,
a really great point of sale application that, you know, um, Alex from Maya protocol
is trying to help as well.
We're all, we're all working together to solve this problem.
So what, what about edge, would you say specifically that you, you want to, that, how do you, because
I think it is a UX problem, right?
So what, what do you think edge wall does really great and, or what are, and what are
some things you think you guys can do some do better?
Excuse me.
Yeah, no, thanks for asking that that question i love being honest about it and i also want to get
feedback from people as far as what we could do better um i switched to headphones by the way am
i coming in okay you sound better actually better yeah yeah i figured out yeah i was scrambling
looking for my headphones i've been on speaker this whole time so i'm glad this is an improvement
but what i think we do well and what our big focus is on and why, and also what I would call,
compared to all of our competitors, we have to spend a tremendous amount of time on our
engineering side that most of our competitors don't have to is key management. So you'll notice
in Edge, you don't have to write down seed words, right? There's no 24 words you have to write down
when you go and create your Edge account. And so that might sound bad to a lot of the long-term cypherpunk-ish users of crypto.
But once again, this is us bridging the gap to try to get self-custody adopted by the 97% as opposed to the 3%.
So in Edge, you create login credentials as you would like in a Coinbase, except there's no
email, there's no phone number. We still care a ton about privacy and we don't want accounts
associated to actual real emails, phone numbers, which can easily be tied to a real user.
So you create just a username, login credentials, a PIN, and that automatically creates your keys for all of your chains, and then encrypts
them all, and then backs them up, and then synchronizes them between your different devices.
And so all of the nuance of making the user feel like they're creating a regular account,
being able to change passwords, set up two-factor authentication, even password recovery.
And this is something that a co-founder and I had kind of invented over a long drive to and from a conference in Vegas,
you know, back and forth from San Diego to Vegas.
I said, oh my God, we can actually build a password recovery mechanism that's still self-custody, that feels familiar to users.
self-custody that feels familiar to users.
And so all of that is what I call the kind of the novel innovative stuff that we've built
at Edge to make it genuinely feel like a regular account and still use encryption, you know,
deep cryptography to ensure that both privacy and the security is retained and Edge doesn't
have access to these accounts.
That's what I think we've done quite well in doing and we've we still have to spend quite a
bit of engineering in that to keep it up up to date um and uh keep the infrastructure scaling
to be able to handle the the user base so i invite people to give it a try it's going to
if you've been in crypto for a number of years and have never used Edge, it'll feel different. No question about it.
But I ask you to, it'll feel different, but I'll ask you, onboard someone who's not been in crypto.
You know, onboard a new person into Edge and then also try to onboard them into one of our competitors
and then see how they feel.
What feels more familiar to them?
What are they more easily
able to adopt? So I liken what we've built to, you know, if you go back into the 80s,
for any of you that are old enough to remember the 80s, I'm kind of an 80s child myself,
right? Go back to the 80s. Many people don't remember this, but you know, Steve Jobs and Apple,
they built the Apple II, which many people here probably have never used.
It was entirely command line computer.
You boot it up.
You got a cursor.
You had to stick floppy disks into the thing, type commands to run your program.
But you could open up the box, and you could add expansion cards, and you can increase the RAM, right, and upgrade it.
And you needed to do that in order to run some programs.
Steve Jobs hated that.
He knew it was a necessity to build and launch the Apple II,
but he absolutely hated it.
And so the Mac came around,
and the Mac hid it all from you, right?
You didn't have to deal with, you know, expansion you. You didn't have to deal with expansion cards.
You didn't have to open up the computer.
It just worked.
But all of the people that loved the Apple II
and actually had user groups.
These are kind of like the early name for meetups.
We kind of call them meetups today.
But in the 80s, they were called user groups.
And they would have classes and teach people
how to use their Apple 2e,
how to open it up if you needed to, or how to type in the commands in order to run programs,
and how to copy files between your floppy disks and whatnot.
Those user groups hated the Mac.
They're like, wait, where did my screws go to open the thing?
Where's my prompt, my terminal prompt?
It was gone.
And you don't need it anymore.
You got to click, click, click,
and now grandma can use it.
We liken what we've built
and the error that we're in
to kind of that transition
between the Apple II and the Mac.
And there are long-term users of crypto
that do not like what we've built.
Much like the people that ran the user groups And there are long-term users of crypto that do not like what we've built.
Much like the people that ran the user groups in the 80s didn't like the Mac because they were used to seeing the guts of the technology.
And fundamentally, I think the 1224 words are the guts of the technology.
They're not bridging it over into the masses. Now granted, I think that
should still exist. Those should continue to exist. Like a terminal problem still exists in a current
Mac today, but it doesn't have to be the only way you access and interface with crypto and backup
your keys. And so how do I think of, you know, this transition and, you know, what's challenging?
Yeah. For those of you that feel comfortable with it, go use an app where you go and back up your 24 words.
Great. And for what I believe is the masses, i.e. all the people that would use Coinbase and not use self-custody.
Right. That's what Edge has built.
What have we not done well with, though? Right.
I think you'd ask that question as well,. What have we not done well with though? Right. I think you'd
ask that question as well, is what have we been weak on? So as part of that kind of strong privacy
narrative that we build, so not just self-custody, but also privacy, the strong privacy effort that
we build, that means that we do a lot more on device, on your phone.
There are some self-custody apps that are incredibly fast and efficient,
but they make the compromise of doing 99.9% of what the app would do entirely on a server.
And the only thing that it doesn't do on the server is have the private key to sign a transaction.
They might create the transaction on a server, right?
They might query all of your addresses
across all of your assets,
whether it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, Dogecoin,
you name it, right?
Everything is queried on a server
under a single account identifier, right?
So a technique would be, for example,
a technique that a wallet could use
if they wanted to be incredibly efficient and lightweight is have a single account key that you create when you open up your wallet.
And it's derived from your master private key.
That account key goes to their server.
And that account key gets associated with all of your public addresses. And they can query like a block explorer.
Just behave like a block explorer.
Query all of your addresses at once while you're offline.
Know your balances and know all your transactions
and know that all of those belong to a single user.
And as soon as you launch the app,
it immediately knows all your balances and transactions.
Just like that, right?
There's no waiting.
It's instant and fast.
But it compromises the privacy in knowing that every single one of these transactions and addresses belongs to one person.
Who that is, they may not know.
Or maybe they do because they ask for a phone number.
Many of our competitors actually ask for a phone number now.
So maybe they know all these transactions and balances belong to this one
person. So that is a very efficient way of operating. In Edge, we don't do that, right?
We take every single chain and we query it individually to ideally as much as possible
open nodes, right? Open nodes on the network of which some we run ourselves. But the nodes that
we run are not unique to us,
meaning other people can use them.
You don't have to be an edge user to use these nodes
and blockbook servers that we run.
And that gives us, in a way, it obfuscates the knowledge
of which addresses and which transactions are edge
versus which are not.
But that is less efficient. Meaning that when you fire
up edge, all of your wallets are these little engines that have to go in sync with the network
and query, you know, here's my address. You know, what transactions do I have? Here's my address.
What's my balance? And it's to do that. And if you have a ton of wallets inside edge, you have like
five Bitcoin wallets and three Ethereum and, you know, Doge wallet and whatnot.
Each one of those has to go and sync up with the network.
And it does that, you know, individually by itself.
That's less efficient.
And so we'll feel, especially on boot up, like a slower app than I think many others.
And that's a piece that we're trying to optimize pretty much like on a monthly basis, trying to find ways to optimize that and make it a better experience.
So another long winded answer. Hopefully that both answers it, but it also gives you the nuance of, you know, why we do what we do compared to a lot of our, a lot of the other options out there.
Yeah, well, that's exactly, you know, I was thinking what you're talking about. And I was thinking about 14 as well, because like, you know, you are, you have an ethos, right? You have principles of which edge wallet is founded upon, and you are sticking to that ethos. And this is
actually a competitive disadvantage we apply to ourselves, right? Like 14 cannot have third party
dependencies, it has to be decentralized. We try to run our
own infrastructure, keep everything in-house, right? And because of that, the protocol is very
complex. It's almost 700,000 lines of code. We cannot move as fast as a centralized player when
it comes to shipping things anymore. And that puts us at a disadvantage. But there is enormous
power to that as well, well. And we both strive to
figure out ways to optimize that and make the best experience possible for our customers and
our user base. So you're not doing anything wrong. It's just how do you take the disadvantage that
we apply to ourselves out of principle and streamline it in a way that is more competitive.
But at the same time, this same air quotes disadvantage we apply to ourselves
is actually enormously powerful
because the way that this industry is moving,
it is something that people will come to appreciate.
Like the idea that it is permissionless on ThorChain.
There is no KYC.
You are seeing that narrative really take hold now
of the importance of not having KYC.
And so I think we're just early, my friend.
And I encourage you just to keep doing what you're doing.
I think you're doing a great job.
And I hope anyone who just listened to those answers, you should follow Paul.
And I did share something uplink on top in the space here.
Give Edgewater Fall.
Try it out.
Try it out.
And he also said something very, very important.
Because we, the people who are currently in crypto, we are not the important people we need to go after.
We want to go after the people who are not in crypto.
Just like the Mac, the MacBook that he mentioned, a great example.
We want to on-ramp people.
We want to get them on here.
And how we do that is we have to reduce that friction.
We have to make the process easy.
Because all those command lines and everything he talked about, that's obsolete. It's no longer a thing, right? So we have to not placate to our
own selves, but placate, or we have to appeal, excuse me, to the people that we want to join
this industry and we will. So dude, that was a great answer. Well done. Um, Kenton, did you have
anything you want to add to that?
I do have a question.
So Paul, you mentioned the kind of the curmudgeony, you know, old school crypto people used to
their seed phrase wallets and are all alluded to them type deal.
One of the I guess if you know, they might say one of the advantages of that is that they can take their 12 words, their seed phrase, and go recreate their wallet anywhere in the world with any other wallet.
I'm curious with Edge, if there's no seed phrase, if it's just like a login name and password that I create, what happens if Edge Wallet app gets shut down on the App Store? Is there a way
for me to recreate my wallet somewhere else?
Yeah. So the seed phrase actually isn't not there.
It's always there. It's created. It's just encrypted and backed up.
And you're not asked to specifically back it up. But it's always on your device.
So at any point, you can go into airplane mode with Edge today.
If you've got an account on your phone,
you can go into airplane mode,
log in with your full password or biometric.
PIN specifically does require network access,
but log in with your full password or biometric,
and you can go to your wallets
and show your master private key,
which is a seed phrase for most wallets.
Now, one inconvenience in doing that, though, is both an inconvenience and it's a feature.
With Edge, we actually create a different master private key for every chain.
So when you first start up, you might pick like, you know, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, or, you you know a handful of chains litecoin as your
the chains that you have assets in your account for and each one of those has a different master
private key which means if you wanted to back them up you'd be backing them one per chain so it's
not going to be the most fun backup process and export process into another wallet.
Now, what's the benefit of that, though?
A lot of people don't realize there's a huge benefit in that.
Number one, security.
There was a Solana wallet.
Once again, to tell another story for you guys, there was a Solana wallet a couple of years ago
that had an exploit that leaked private keys
out of the app.
And a lot of people obviously lost Solana from that,
but a good number of people were losing Bitcoin,
Ethereum, and a bunch of other assets.
And they're like, why did I lose my Bitcoin, Ethereum,
when this was a solana only
wallet that had been exploited and it obviously was because it was solana it had very specific
solana features like a lot of staking capabilities you know airdrops but all this stuff and that's
what people were using that wallet for and the reason was people were exporting their keys from
a multi-asset wallet like an Exodus, Phantom, and whatnot.
They were exporting that one master private key from those wallets, putting it into the Solana wallet, and then getting their airdrops and doing their staking and whatnot.
And when that got exploited, they lost everything.
Not just the Solana, not just there are drops but the bitcoin ethereum stable
coins you name it they lost it all and that's one of the inherent risks of a single master private
key is if at any point in time you're needing that master private key to be able to access
some aspect of one asset you put all assets at risk. Another way that that could happen
is being sent the wrong asset.
So I'm not sure how much your audience can be aware of this,
but addresses can actually exist across multiple chains.
This is very true in the EVM world,
obviously like an Ethereum versus an L2.
One address can mean multiple chains but this is
actually also true in kind of the Bitcoin world Bitcoin Bitcoin cash Litecoin someone can actually
send Bitcoin to a Litecoin address so now imagine someone sent you or there was a split in the
network someone sent you some random fork of Bitcoin onto your Litecoin address.
If you remember 2017, the fork wars, everyone took Bitcoin and forked it, took Bitcoin cash,
forked it, Bitcoin gold, Bitcoin pizza, blah, blah, blah. And they sent that over to you
on some address. Well, there are tools to take your keys and import it into a wallet specific to that chain and get your
money out. If you were to import the master private key, well, once again, that puts everything at
risk, all of your assets. With Edge, if you had to import the master private key, you'd be importing
it for that one chain that had generated an address that you had received an incorrect asset
on right and then put that into some other wallet get those funds out and if
you didn't want to put all your funds at risk you could sweep out your funds
first and then import the key imagine if you had to sweep out your funds for
everything you had right everything from your Solana your ethereum your like coin your Litecoin, your Monero, Boliv, Sweep, all that,
just to make sure that that private key
was emptied of all your funds
and then import that private key into another wallet
to extract out the funds that were accidentally sent to you
or either accidentally sent to you
or they were of a fork of a chain.
So another long-winded answer, yes, you can take your private key out.
The private key does exist there in Edge,
and it always exists on your device after you've at least logged in once.
And you can create new private keys as well.
Every time you create a new chain or a new wallet inside of your account,
that's another
master private key and it's automatically encrypted and backed up and you can import keys into Edge.
Those get automatically encrypted and backed up. So detriment is yes, there's many keys, right? It's
going to be hard to back up Edge. It's going to be hard to restore it on another app. Benefit is
you have a more secure environment if you have to export a key, you also can easily import keys
and you can create new wallets
and they're all encrypted and backed up.
You're not having to back up more keys
and write down more information
if more keys get added to your account.
So it's a pro and con.
And I think that the pro outweighs the con.
My fundamental philosophy is why we built it.
But I wanna make sure people are aware, the genuine answer to your question is that yes the keys are there
and you can import them into other apps that's pretty cool man I've not heard of
this before and another wallet is edge the only wallet that does this does any
any other wallets do this um I know there's other walls that let you have
multiple keys but you have multiple keys,
but you have to then back up each one individually.
And they'll tend to take each key and make it almost,
like the interface will be much more like,
hey, go switch to this key.
And then that key then has like a bunch of assets, right?
And then your whole interface is around one key, right? Your Bitcoin, your Ethereum, your Solana, whatever, your Doge, your Litecoin.
And then it's a heavyweight operation to go, oh, switch to another key, master private key, which then shows a whole bunch of different assets.
So I've seen, yeah, I've seen absolutely import multiple keys, but once you're managing each one very individually, they're not automatically backed up and encrypted. And so there's some inherent challenges in UX that, you know, to the
power users, you know, the Apple IIe users, that's not a problem. They can handle that.
For everyone else, I think, I mean, for me personally, I mean, I'm a developer,
I like to consider myself a power user, but I definitely get overwhelmed in key management
as soon as I'm creating two, three keys for whatever purpose I need to create them for.
And so, yeah, I'm not sure.
I'm not aware of any others that let you do this, but I'm open ears.
There might be some others, but I think this is where we definitely differentiate.
That's really cool, man.
I mean, it sounds like Edge is the best of both worlds if you want to
just be keep it simple you know not worry about think about keys no problem you can use it if you
want to be a power user get granular you can um that's awesome yeah absolutely and some power
users at least some of our team you know will say will say, actually, as a quote-unquote power user,
there's one additional advantage
to abstracting the key management,
especially for EVM chains
and all the layer twos of Ethereum and whatnot,
is it becomes easier to have multiple Ethereum addresses.
So the power user may want multiple Ethereum addresses.
You can kind of define power user in different ways, right?
If I'm a power user because I just want to manage my own keys,
that's one aspect of being a power user
and actually see the 24 words and back them up.
Okay, that's a power user.
But a power user could also be one of these,
I want to have multiple addresses.
I want to have my NFT Ethereum address.
I want to have my DeFi Ethereum address.
I want to have the one that I pay my USDC payments with and have multiple. That kind of power user will find life a little
easier and edge because you can have multiple addresses more easily and not just have your
single Ethereum address that in a way kind of compromises what you might be doing from a privacy
point of view.
Imagine if you had just one address and you are sending,
you're receiving all those NFTs to these events that you attend, right? All of those POAPs, right?
Proof of attendance NFTs.
And that's also where you hold NFTs that you've actually been purchasing
that are worth five, six figures. And that's also where you hold NFTs that you've actually been purchasing that are worth, you know, five, six figures.
And that's also where you're doing your DeFi operations and swapping stuff on ThorChain.
Well, now you go into an event, get a PO app, and that event knows your entire financial history.
Right. On pretty much every L2 on Ethereum, L2, L1, you name it,
because they're all sharing the same address.
So a privacy power user will want multiple addresses.
That's really hard to do
on just about every competitor to Edge.
You really are stuck with one address,
not just one address for Ethereum,
but for all of its L2s
and all of the EVMs such as like AVAX,
Polygon, which aren't even Ethereum.
So privacy power user will really struggle
on most of the competitor apps.
And I think that's what we make a little bit easier
for privacy power users on edge.
I think that's fantastic, man.
I love it.
This is a great conversation, guys.
We are coming at the top of the hour.
Please, again, share the space. This is a great conversation, guys. We are coming at the top of the hour. Please,
again, share the space. This is a great conversation. We have a wonderful guest
today with Paul from Edge Wallet. Fantastic. Again, check out the resource I put up top.
You guys, the important things when it comes to this industry, we have to support the protocols
that share our values. If Paul does not share your values, I don't know why you're part of
ThorChain because this is exactly what we need. But we also have a new speaker. We had HoudiniSwap come up and
shout out to HoudiniSwap. We did a space with them a little while ago and I actually rubbed
them a little bit because I got super, super sick and I could not make the space, but they
gladly rescheduled. We had a great conversation. This was like two months ago or something like
that. So welcome HoudiniSwap. But when you check your mic and uh what do you got for us
who do you need swap if you're speaking you are muted and i'll give you a few more seconds and
see if we can get that resolved maybe they're experiencing what i did when i first tried to
join in yeah it is not uncommon for X to rug.
Wonderful.
So we'll give Houdini swap.
We'll come back to Houdini swap.
Give them a few more seconds to figure out any tech issues
because that happens a lot on X.
Very good.
Well, Paul, real quick, I wondered what can, you know,
4Chain, we have gone through a lot, right?
Like we've made mistakes that people know, right?
We've done really incredible things like streaming swaps.
What do you think 4Chain should focus on next?
What do you think should be our priority?
Because you were one of the foundational people that really helped us streamline our process.
So could you share your opinion on that?
Paul, if you're speaking, I do not hear you.
Am I rubbed?
I can hear you.
I can't hear Paul.
Oh, what is going on right now?
Houdini swap and Paul now can speak.
Okay.
Now he's a listener X.
I swear to God.
Oh, I hear you. Go ahead. Okay, now he's a listener. X, I swear to God. Oh, I hear you.
Go ahead.
Okay.
Yeah, so I think the last time I joined the space
is like a month ago.
There was heavy discussion about that.
Can't recall the exact nuance detail,
but if there's, you know,
I think anything that,
there's a bunch of small things. That's the best way for me to describe there's a bunch of small things.
That's the best way for me to describe it, a bunch of small things.
I'm sure many people will want more chain support, but of course, that is a large, large undertaking from the viewpoint of technical,
but then also resources for each of the node operators, right?
Having to run and validate another chain is not cheap.
having to run and validate another chain is not cheap.
But that's easily what I know a lot of people do look for
in getting ThorChain and the ecosystem of ThorChain like Maya
and other DEXs to be able to compete with centralized exchanges
where people are depositing money and losing their self-custody.
So more chain support.
For me personally and the ecosystem of people that resonate with Edge, we really want to push for privacy chain support.
Am I still there, by the way?
Yeah, okay, good.
I'm so glad you mentioned that because, and I didn't mean to cut you off.
I'm sorry, brother.
The one thing that people have been talking about, I've seen as Monero, we're seeing this centralized custodial option.
It has to be centrally custodial option.
There's a real gray box where these swaps are coming from.
And I am seeing the biggest push for privacy.
So I'm so glad you said that.
Please continue.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, no.
I'm actually just checking to make sure I was coming in okay
because my ex-app was saying I had connection restored and disconnected.
I'm like, ah, what's going on here?
But glad you guys can still hear me. So yeah, privacy coins, obviously Zcash, you know, now supported by Maya.
So it's at least in the ecosystem, but it's recent pump has got a lot of people looking at privacy
in general. And there's been even outside of what I call that like narrow shadowy super coder, very Anon focused ecosystem. I mean, we're hearing
what I call mass market, like the VCs talking about it. There was a great post by, I think his
name's Ali Yaa. I can't remember how to pronounce the last name, but from A16Z, Andreessen Horowitz, had an entire two-page post about how privacy is going to be
the most important moat for crypto protocols going into 2026.
And I'm like, wow, this is amazing. That's been our focus. Now, we're not a crypto protocol,
but believing that the protocols that offer privacy being really the important distinguishing factor going into this year,
stated by one of the largest investors in all of tech, not just crypto,
they're obviously a huge, large crypto investor, but also just in general, the tech space,
really will open the eyes of the lame and the normie into the
you get rugged there paul dang it god dang it well um i'm gonna give uh paul a second to go
ahead paul just keep talking paul maybe we'll hear you but uh you know just to spin off of what he
was saying um there seems to be a new push on this especially for our own
community i saw we had a node operator in dev discord um you know talk about you know our old
black protocol um something we tried to use the multi-sig um are you there paul you trying to speak
mic check my hair continue buddy okay where'd i leave off uh where'd I get rugged? Oh man, go ahead.
Was it on A16Z?
Just after that.
Yeah.
Just after that. Yeah. So I mean,
Ali from A16Z, who I was referring to,
had put in about a two-page
article post about the importance
of privacy and it being the
biggest moat
on crypto protocols. So fundamentally, I think this is going to open the eyes of just the normies out there
and how important this is.
And so I'm excited to go into the year with hopefully that being an elevated concern for
people.
And of course, privacy protocols and building a protocol is only a first step of it.
And we're not a protocol developer, but being able to use the protocol is the next step
which is where we come in we can interface to those protocols and then of course there's a
protocols on top of protocols like thort chain where not only do you need to be able to interface
from it from a ui point of view of what we're building but also you need to be able to bridge
between it get into the protocol um with whatever assets have, such as Bitcoin, Ethereum, and being able to swap into them,
do DeFi operations with those assets.
I think that is what I'm genuinely happy
that a more mainstream VC is seeing the value
behind the efforts that we've all kind of built.
Now, we'll see going 2026,
how much that narrative actually pushes through.
But I think we can all take part in making sure
that it does actually achieve a strong narrative
by supporting the protocols.
And we'll see where it gets.
Happy to be part of it.
100%, yeah.
Go ahead, Captain.
No, I say me too. I'm curious your thoughts. I mean, you've been in space for a while, you've seen, you know, something like the
attacks from Big Brother and whatnot. And you know, right now
the US is pro crypto. But you know, some people are concerned,
worried, you know, this politics can always change. Right. And I can't help but wonder if if the powers that be are OK with crypto because it's all public. Right. They can actually track everything. And that's why they're giving it a pass. And if privacy really takes off and is adopted, if they'll if big brother will clamp down again i'm curious if if you see that as
a risk and if so do you think we can win do you think we can fight it do you think um like there's
been like a door chain for example some people think you know if we add a monero pool door chain
isn't big enough to to ward off like a state level attack type deal.
I'm curious your thoughts around that. How do we, you know, how do, how do we introduce privacy
and, and have it stick, have it succeed? Or do you think I'm being crazy? I'm being paranoid that,
you know, it won't be that hard to, for it to take off. I don't think you're being paranoid,
It won't be that hard for it to take off.
I don't think you're being paranoid,
but there's kind of two angles to think about it, right?
Either, where was this post I saw?
You're either so small.
Actually, it was by the Zcash team.
It was founder, not founder,
but the former CEO of ECC, Josh Sweetheart,
had made a post that I resonate with.
Not all of it, but one line, which is you're either so small you fly under the radar,
or you're so big they can't stop you. ThorChain is, how do I say it? I think it's somewhere in
between. I don't think it flies under the radar anymore but it's not so big
that you know that they can't stop you but because you're no longer small to fly under radar the goal
then is to get so big that they can't stop it so that everyone's dependent on it it's utilized by
a lot of um a lot of the ecosystem and if part of how you get there is through the support of the privacy
chains, then I'd say so be it. As well, there's two facets of how you get there. Number one,
yeah, support the privacy chains. There's a high demand for them. But as well, get adoption within kind of that normie ecosystem, right?
How do we get ThorChain to just be part of like, not your shadowy super coder type of, you know,
dark market user, but get enough volume from the regular layman's as well. because every tool in the world, everything, literally, you know, underwear,
t-shirts, homes are all used by what the government will call bad guys. Right? So if you,
if you want to like say, oh, well, that's used by, you know, you know, child molesters and whatnot
and terrorists. Well, everything is used by child molesters and terrorists.
Name one thing that isn't. Literally everything is. So the real question is, well, what percentage of the users
of an item are what government call bad guys versus what government will say are normies?
And the higher that percentage of normies, the more they're not going to target whatever that
thing is, right? Whatever that tool is, the more they're not going to target whatever that thing is, right?
Whatever that tool is,
the more they're not going to target that tool as being a,
an illicit piece of the ecosystem.
And so getting it into the hands of more people is a key piece of that path.
Like I said, everything is used by bad guys, literally everything.
And so grow as fast as we as we can get it into the hands of as many people as we can and become too large to
be stopped um and luckily there is a narrative for us to get uh the normies there because it's
already being championed by kind of the normie investors and the VCs, and they have a lot of power and they have a lot of ability to,
to transform and change and drive narrative.
See what they're trying to,
to push from the viewpoint of protocols and which ones to support in Thor chain
and,
and get those championed and pushed as well as the ones that people are
demanding today.
You know, I really love this conversation. It's something I think about a lot.
And this is how I think about it. Again, guys, you know, I'm Patriot Sounds, Denny is my name.
I speak for myself. I don't speak on behalf of the protocol. I am an ordinary individual,
a member of this community. But this is how I interpret it because, you know, I am a public
official. I've gone to fundraisers. I've got to see a little bit of the inner machine. It was an important thing to think, what is the government? Okay, what is it? Some people say, well, it's the politicians, the people we elect. It is not. It is the people who finance those people. Those are the people who are making the choices in the front man. They're the packaging, right?
They're the outer layer.
They are not the meat and potatoes of what's going on.
And I think Paul's correct.
There could be some silver linings here because Thorchain has gone through this growth period where we had to discover what works, what doesn't.
And we've made some really good decisions.
We've made some not so good decisions, but it's taken a while to get to this point.
But now here we are.
We have a community that is fully mature.
We understand the vision.
We understand the path forward.
We are currently training new node operators
to increase decentralization of Thorchain.
We are getting bigger, better, stronger.
We have this new app layer, Rujira, that's coming
that is just in every single way better
than what any traditional economic doctrine
can offer, any primitive whatsoever. This is how I think about it. I think we absolutely will be
attacked, but that is part of my game theory. Being attacked is the necessary step to ultimately
becoming free because the people who finance our governments, and it's not just America,
it's all our governments, right? They're the ones that call the shots. They will not tolerate surrendering
their economic dominion over the world. They will not do that. Absolutely not. And the reason why
they haven't attacked the door chain is because we are not that big of a threat. But if we continue
to execute, if we continue to do that, we absolutely will. But to Paul's point,
he's absolutely correct. We must make this text so useful, so ubiquitous in the hands of so many
people that we can weather the storm. And so, yeah, I think it will happen, but I'm confident
that we can and we will carry the day that we will win. And because guys, everything what we do when
it comes to privacy, maybe we add Monero soon, right? It is the right thing to do. It is the correct thing to do. The narrative
is firmly in our court. There is nothing that we have to be ashamed of. We have nothing to hide
from. This is the way we need to go. And so own it, wear it with pride, and just prepare yourself, right? And again, I feel so confident if there's any community in blockchain anywhere that can weather the storm,
that can deliver the ultimate promise of blockchain, it is this one.
It is ThorChain, Maya.
It is Edge.
It is Houdini.
It is all of us working together.
So embrace that idea.
Don't be afraid from it.
And if it does happen, just be ready.
I want to give houdini
swap another opportunity to speak to check your mic um if you want to just hang out up here that's
you're more than welcome to do that but i know access difficulties would you check out your mic
houdini swap real quick hey guys gmgm can you hear me okay yeah go ahead what do you got for us man
hey guys yeah no just saw uh edge wallet andet and Thorchain and just wanted to say Happy New Year to everyone.
And just, yeah, I'm just driving right now, so I don't have too much for you guys.
But, you know, like, it's just, it's really, really exciting to see kind of privacy back in the mainstream, you know.
And I think for us who feel like uncles and kind of ogs in the space uh really
really pushing you know privacy adoption it's uh it's just so awesome to see so many you know
different players coming out and and really just you know building and and what we feel is is truly
crypto's biggest you know like like barrier to to mass adoption and mass scale. And, um, you know, it's, it's,
it's just, yeah, it's a really, really awesome feeling to see three years of hard work trying to,
you know, starting to finally pay off and, and just even like to share some, some like anecdotal
stories over the break, like, you know, our core team kind of just took a step away and just,
you know, did some like serious, serious, deep, deep thinking on,
on privacy and, and, you know, ecosystem products and, and really just like the,
the crypto landscape altogether. And, you know, you can imagine, you know, us like, you know,
building in a time where tornado cash was getting sanctioned and, you know, Roman storm was fighting
with the sec every day. And, you know, Roman Storm was fighting with the SEC every day.
And, you know, we were already we were a disruptive company in an already disruptive space. Right. Like you have crypto, which is already very nascent and often looked at as, you know, kind of like like whatever.
Right. There's a lot of misinterpretation around crypto.
And then you add privacy to that.
And it's kind of like this double-edged sword.
So it felt like all these conversations with VCs and large protocols and L1s and chains, we're trying to solve for use cases like, you know, somebody getting sandwiched when they're trading and, you know, or, you know, issuing payments,
financial operations, payroll, you know, like investment strategies, not being doxed and
wrench attacks protecting against all these legitimate use cases. But we were always on
the back foot. And I just encourage people to look at, you know, look at Uber, look at Airbnb,
And I just encourage people to look at, you know, look at Uber, look at Airbnb, look at Polymarket, right?
All of these companies were disruptive companies in very nascent industries, right?
And so I'm sure it seemed crazy.
I'm sure it seemed taboo.
I'm sure it seemed, you know, criminal to get into a stranger's vehicle 10 years ago, right?
That wasn't a taxi
cab. And I'm sure it seemed taboo to, you know, rent out a stranger's home for a vacation for a
weekend. I'm sure it seemed very taboo, criminal, sketchy, you know, to invest in low liquid markets,
you know, that were political based or, you know, on chain. Like it just it's but then look what happens.
It's just like a flick of the switch, right?
Where these companies, it just becomes something happens.
There's some catalyst and it just it just flips like a switch.
And we really, really are true believers that that that is privacy in 2026. And it's just going to
be this flick of the switch moment where it's like, yeah, like, you're right, I definitely
should not be taking, you know, my Uber ride and paying on public rails, because, you know,
now that Uber driver not only knows my my home address or my location, but they also know my
financial worth. And that puts you into a very,
very like interesting predicament from not only a privacy perspective, but a security perspective.
And, you know, like in this surveillance capitalism economy that we're living in,
you know, like financial data is legitimately gold, right? If you're just going to transact
and pay for your coffees and, you know, on public blockchain rails,
you bet that Starbucks or whatever, you know,
counterparty you're interacting with
is just aggregating all of this data,
you know, financial data being the highest tier
that they're looking,
and they'll just leverage it against you, right?
Like, we just, we know this game so, so well.
So anyways, like, my two cents on that and just like you know shout out
door chain shout out edge wallet um just love to see other proponents of of privacy and like it's
just it's so obvious from our point of view that crypto cannot scale without privacy it's something
that just i think takes time and like you don't really feel it until
you've had that experience of of getting phished or you know somebody's watching your wallets or
you know you're paying employees and you don't want all your employees to know everything that's
in your treasury and you know the the employees are having you know access to what each other's
making at the business like all these operations are just so fundamentally flawed and it's, it's obvious to us, but it's
just, it's now becoming more obvious to the A16Zs of the world and, you know, all the
tier one wallets and all the trading terminals.
And, and, and so it's just, yeah, it's just awesome to see.
And yeah, really just looking forward to see what 2026 has for privacy.
So appreciate you guys giving me a little spiel there,
but I'll shut up and turn it back to you guys.
Well, I appreciate you coming up and saying those things because, you know,
a space can easily just be a bunch of guys in the circle jerk, right?
Like, no, I asked the audience, listen to what Houdini Swap just said.
Give me the argument, the good arguments of why everything he said was a bad idea. And we'll make it quick. There are no good. There are no good arguments against it's common sense. It makes complete sense that we need privacy. It is absolutely essential. And the arguments against privacy, they are flawed on a fundamental level.
So no fear you guys full send let's embrace it. Let's push the envelope. We've got this we are now mature enough
Let's not have fear. Let's not worry about big brother stand tall square your back plant your feet
Look forward head up chin chin up, right? Just this is what we're doing
This is the right thing to do and that's the way it's gonna be
So I I think we got this guys. I really do.
We just got to take it home. So that's what we're going to do. Paul, I'm going to kick it back to
you. Did you have any thoughts on that? Only a hundred percent agreement with this. Thanks a
whole lot from Houdini swap to kind of reiterate what we've been feeling for the past several years.
I mean, it's, it's been tough. I want to resonate with the fact that it's been tough building in this intersection of
crypto and privacy especially seeing crypto kind of go kind of in the opposite direction
um but yeah it's got almost a breath of fresh air and relief to see at least a16z resonate with this
um i want to i want to capture though a bit of a nuance in this privacy battle that we have and make sure people are aware of kind of this one challenge we are going to run into.
I'm confident we're going to run into this is that privacy is a bit nuanced, right?
There's different aspects of what we keep private or what is defined as private. And there will come an ecosystem of privacy,
what I call the protocols and narratives
that are what I call trad-fi level privacy,
where you might get the good enough.
This is my biggest fear in my push for privacy
is that a good enough to the established players
gets built, but it doesn't achieve that longer term economic freedom that we're trying to
build for.
That good enough being the backdoor privacy, the sure, I transact with a coffee shop and
they don't know my balance.
Sure, I can go ahead and pay my staff and employees and they don't know my balance. Sure, I can go ahead and pay my staff and
employees and they don't know the company's treasury or they don't know how much each
other is getting paid. But the government does, the bank, the protocol operator does,
some third party does. And we all know that when there is a backdoor, that backdoor can get leaked.
And we all know that when there is a backdoor, that backdoor can get leaked.
And when that's leaked, we all lose the privacy.
So the same way that hopefully Signal has been able to succeed without incorporating a backdoor into the protocol, not protocol, but into their app,
I'm hoping that something in the ecosystem of crypto that is true privacy at the cryptographic level without a
backdoor gets adopted and that we don't just achieve good enough or equivalent to the trad
fire world but we exceed it right because that's our goal so we don't try to build technology to
achieve what we already have we should build technology to build something that exceeds
the caliber of what we already have much like Bitcoin's trying to exceed the ability for us to own our own money and not achieve
what we already have.
So this is the piece.
Keep an eye out for this, everybody.
And when you start hearing of protocols come out or brag about, hey, we're private, make
sure that they're doing that and exceeding that level of privacy that TradFi
kind of already gives, right? Otherwise, we're just kind of bringing us back to where we already are
and not really getting any true real adoption. Perfectly said. Guys, we get to set the standard.
All of us get to set the standard. All of us work together
where you're Thorchain, Maya, Houdini, Edge Wallet. We are collectively going to set the
standard. It is within our power, our collective power to do this, to establish what is right.
And we're going to do that. We are going to do that. So guys, if you ever feel bearish, if you ever feel, you know, don't. We are not going
to stop. None of us are going to stop until we fulfill this mission. We economically liberate
the world. I know that sounds cliche. I know that might sound overly romanticized, but it's literally
what we're going to do. We have all existed under this nonsensical economic doctrine, this tyrannical system
that takes away our purchasing power.
It's enough.
We've had enough.
We've had enough of nation states destroying the things for their own personal benefit,
trying to enslave everybody.
We are setting the new standard, a global standard that is open source, free permissionless
for anyone to use.
Fix the money, fix the world.
It's legit how it's going to be.
Kenton, I want to kick it to you
if you want to add anything to this conversation.
No, I agree with everyone.
I agree.
I think a good offense is a strong defense.
So having more resources at our disposal
is how we protect ourselves, defend ourselves.
So growth is the answer.
And, yeah, we can't, this is what I feel like is, like, you know, me personally, what I'm in, in the crypto is for the, for the revolution, right?
For this, you know, changing the, like you said, Paul, like, you know,
new tech, or is it Paul or Houdini? I forget which one you said, sorry. You know, you're going to
invent a new technology. It's got to solve a problem. And the whole point of crypto is a new
financial system. Not to work within the existing one is to replace the existing one.
And yeah, I mean, they're not gonna go down without a fight. That's my only concern.
So, you know, first they ignore you,
then they fight you, then you win, right?
I do think we're gonna win.
I'm just wondering about the casualties along the way
and how we do it.
But you can't comply
yourself out of tyranny right so you know at some point we got to take a stand right and um
in my mind privacy is it i think this is our stand this is this is where the the kind of
final battle will be will be held and um um yeah i think if everyone's working together we're all
pitching in it's i think we're gonna win i want to mention one thing you'd you'd ask like you know
what should thor chain do should we be concerned be more conservative especially with respect to
privacy you know you'd mentioned also that um administrations can change well you're right right now current administration is pro
crypto but the good thing
is if even though
administration can change
there is such a thing called
precedent that gets set
and so this is the time to go and build and push
the limits
because if you
if you get a green light
within this administration,
that's very hard for a future administration to reverse.
So that precedent is key.
If you get the, hey, there's no action letter because we did this,
or if there is a challenge that gets placed,
but because the administration is pro-crypto
and to even a slight degree pro-privacy,
then getting that green light now gives you the green light for a very, very long term.
So this is the time to go and push. Push hard, push fast, get adoption.
In a way, kind of push the limits to what we believe is that legal gray area,
because this is the time to get it. And you're right, it might change. And if this window passes,
so could be our chance to get that little nugget of approval or no action that we need to be able to fight it going
forward. Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's like so many side things like that. Um, and like the
other one is too, in that, that window, um, the storage in particular, if it continues to grow,
that becomes more decentralized and so that even
if they do change their minds and you're you know let's say we don't get that pass um and then you
do want to come back and do something well by then thort chain is much bigger and much much stronger
um the other one too and this is this is where number goes up plays in like with bitcoin for
example like you know a lot of these politicians didn't all of a
sudden become you know like us like you know what i mean they're they're just in it to make money
and um that's the benefit of bitcoin being you know being a successful investment is that it
plays into people's greed too right so you know big brother generally what drives like the castro
fidel castros and stalin's of the world is power.
It's not money, it's power.
But a lot of politicians are driven by greed.
And so like they find a way to make money, you know, get campaign donations, whatever, by supporting and get votes by supporting Bitcoin and crypto.
by supporting Bitcoin and crypto.
So it could be the same thing.
So it could be the same thing.
Like, you know, with privacy,
there's going to be politicians
that see the writing on the wall,
see the winds changing.
They're going to want to support privacy
and promote it and be advocates for it.
And because they find a way to make money off it,
to get votes out of it, you know, what have you.
And so that could help with things politically too
right and you know the only way they're gonna you know rogue politicians are gonna support it is if
it actually is succeeding right is being used it is benefiting people so um there's always there's
nuance to everything right it's not yeah i don't think it's so black and white that you know all
of a sudden we're gonna lose or anything like that that, or it's going to be a big battle.
There's definitely,
I definitely could see ways out of this where it's smooth,
relatively smooth sailing.
So, but like, but we just have to do it.
We just have to go for it, right?
Like that's the only way we're going to find out.
100%.
I could not agree with that more.
Just do it.
I mean, this is the time to as paul
says um houdini swap you i think you had your hand up earlier i just want to kick it to you
just in case you want to add something yeah just like all incredibly like like stronger marks there
i think like you know one of the core things you know or like the core catalysts right i think at
least from a political level is like we we all know this
is that just like you know this is a money like this is a money like you know capitalism economics
is really kind of like the nucleus or the epicenter of everything right i saw the most taboo industry
in in the world you know the the marijuana the the drug uh business become legalized you know
because it was an economic play in Canada here.
Right. And we just thought that that would never, ever happen. And so, you know, like the boundaries
at the political level can be pushed if there is the right economic incentive to appeal to a mass
market. And so I just, you know, like bringing this back to privacy, like, you know, in this time off over the Christmas holiday, I was looking at ProtonMail, right? And I was like, how the hell did these guys into their whole history and everything. Because I was
like, you know, who like, like, how, how do 100 million people care about this so much to the
point where they're going to rotate from their existing suite over to to ProtonMail. And really,
it's like, you know, one of the core things that their that their founder said was, they just,
they really made it as frictionless as as as possible for somebody
to just you know like rotate their entire suite over same thing with duck duck go right and like
and google and i think that that like that's kind of on us like the frictionless piece like like
truly right like i see all these protocols getting built in the privacy space. And like,
you know, chain level protocol level privacy is is inherent friction, like, like it is right,
because it's like, if I have all my assets on TRX, or I have all my assets on Solana,
or I have all my assets on Coinbase, you know, like whatever it is.
And you're asking me to, you know, four, five, six, seven click new wallets, new DEXs, new trading terminals,
new, you know, like private Aave, private, you know, private DEX aggregator, private, you know, private this, private, private axiom, like private hyperliquid.
I just think that that's like, that is, that is not like going from Gmail to ProtonMail. So
I just think like the point that I'm trying to make here is, is just UX and like, you know,
barrier to entry has to be as frictionless as possible. And so like the call to action is, yeah, like for the wallets of
the world, for these, you know, for these like tier one applications that truly like govern the
flows in crypto, it's, it's, it's really on them to, to, to put privacy, you know, in front of
their users. So like, you know, phantom to have private mode you know metamask to have
private mode we had one of our users the other day they're like they made a really good analogy
they're like okay i you know i do most of my transactions within my wallet and you know that
they they're like that's like my uber x right like maybe they have a dex aggregator or what you know
whatever the piping they have under the hood whether it it's ThorChain or Li-Fi, like whatever it is, right?
That's like their UberX route, right?
Like maybe their lower cost,
like everyday style of transaction,
maybe it's $50, $100, whatever it is.
But what these apps are missing natively
is like the Uber Black.
And like, that's like the private mode
where it's like, okay,
I wanna send my buddy a wedding gift, but I don't want him to see that I'm holding, you know, 95% supply of, you know, of whatever, Chad 123 coin, right? And so it's like, that, that needs to of the switch, mainstream private adoption, that kind of fulfills like the Gmail to ProtonMail kind of analogy where it's just zero frictionless within all the native applications that people are already using.
Give them that Uber black option, that private mode option, that private checkout option at all point of sales, at the bit refills of the world, the Travolas.
Like that's, you know, and then it just be the market, the TAM and the economics become so great that it just people will, there's just no world where we can go back.
And that's, and that's how it, that's how it happens.
And that's how it happens.
I think that was well said absolutely um i like that that that that really flowed well into what kenton and
paul have both said and i think you guys have made a really compelling argument combined a 100 degree
um i want to check in with paul here we're coming on over an hour and a half how are you doing on
time paul thank you so much for your generosity here with your time.
This has been such an awesome space.
So many great soundbites from this space.
How are you doing, Paul?
Okay, can you guys still hear me?
Yes.
Okay, because Apple, once again, said I disconnected.
But I want to agree that definitely the user experience,
just what Houdini had mentioned,
is one of the big hindrances in getting privacy adopted.
But I'm curious of your opinion on it being like the option that we add to various apps.
I tend to be one of these like, you know, hide privacy, right?
It's funny, like privacy is a technology to hide what we're doing.
But at the same time, I think we should also hide that technology in a sense that it shouldn't be
so visible and it shouldn't be an option rather it should just be there without you going through
additional effort without having to click on a setting and i find that the tools that make it
the default are the ones that get adopted and the ones that don't are the ones that don't get privacy adopted and
people don't end up using.
And so I'm a fan of,
of signal because there's no way to not be private on signal.
Or if you have to,
if you're going to be not private,
you have to go through extra effort.
Like I have to go and screenshot my chat with someone and send it out
publicly.
If I wanted to actually expose it as well,
Monero,
there's always that big, you know big Zcash versus Monero debate
from the viewpoint of price.
Maybe Zcash had done better for a little while,
though I think they're down right now.
But from the viewpoint of actual private transactions,
Monero wins by far because there's not really a way
not to do a private transaction.
And so curious in your thoughts on that,
in that should we focus more on just getting the options in there into the mainstream
or making it where you convince all these tools to just say,
hey, implement these privacy features and make that the default
to the extent that technology can do that for the mainstream user
um and use that as a method of adoption yeah yeah paul honestly like really really well said i i
think um yeah i don't think it has to really be like black and white or or binary i think the
reason the reason why i say that is because at, you know, with, with Houdini
swap specifically, right. Like our private router that we built over the past three years is, uh,
like just, just straight up, like it is, it is more expensive and it's, it's more of like a premium
offering. Um, and it's, you know, like latency suffers a little bit.
Like there's reasons for this, right?
Like we, you know, like while we don't do upfront KYC for our users, we do what's called
KYT, right?
Which means that any sending and receiving wallet addresses are screened in real time
for any sort of, you know, AML, ATF, you know,
OFAC sanctions, you know, blacklisted wallets for exploits, stuff like that.
So we've really, like, to get and to ensure 100% compliance on our router, we've had to
make trade-offs.
And one of those trade-offs is is is price and and and
speed and so that's why that's why i say that like you know if i if i'm if i have a phantom wallet
and i only have a couple hundred dollars to just to only have privacy being like Houdini swap level privacy enabled within the wallet. It's, you know,
like, I don't think that that a like that type of user with just, you know, maybe a couple hundred
dollars in meme assets or whatever it is, is like really resonating with privacy. They're too early
in their journey. But I think privacy optionality is like, is a really it's an incredible step um for us like yeah like it
would be incredible if there was just you know like like privacy was just adopted and that was
just the like truly just like the only setting but as it currently stands for us like it is not
that analogy of gmail to proton because it's like you know okay i go to proton but because it's like, you know, okay, I go to Proton, but now it's a bit more
expensive and it's a bit slower. And so like, we are, we are working 24 seven, like that's like
where 99.9% of our engineering time goes to is to, is to get that, that cost and latency down,
you know, to, to a place where we feel like, you know, this is bulletproof.
But, but as it currently stands, like it is, you know, maybe it's like the, the uni swap or the
jumper or the, you know, the rocket X or the bungee user converting to Houdini swap. They're
going to have, you know, not two minute finality at, at, you you know a fraction of a basis point right like it is that
uber black where it's like a bit more expensive and it's a premium offering it caters to the high
net worth individual it caters to the fidelity digital assets that's trying to leg 20 million
into a position and you know like and doesn't want their trading strategies doxed. It caters to the top trader,
you know, on, on, on photon or, or maestro that, you know, has 40 million across 4,000 wallets and,
you know, is worried about their, you know, their, their personal security and getting targeted or
getting phished or getting scammed. So it's just, it's a different user that we cater to just like uber you know
black caters to a different uh user to uber x but i think just first step yeah privacy optionality
um is is is massive for us and i just like you know it's like sorry to just like ramble here
but i think like the most like it's really important to understand that when we were
building this the options that people had for privacy were terrible, like absolutely terrible.
You go to a centralized exchange.
OK, that was like the privacy solution.
But you lose custody and you get wrecked on fees.
You can only trade 50 tokens.
You have to KYC and, you know, your data gets leaked.
It's all over the Internet and, you know, FTX rugs and you're screwed.
the internet and you know ftx rugs and you're screwed okay that was one side the other side was
OK, that was one side.
like the like let's call it the tornado cash the coin joins which is theoretically an incredible
privacy solution right you put your one marble into a basket of a thousand marbles it gets shaken
up and yes you still pull out your your marble and it's fungible as one marble but unfortunately
it could have touched you know lazarus group's marbles along the way, or, you know, like insert any sort of bad actors in crypto. And then your wallets tainted and, you know, like you can't access protocols now, like you're just, you're screwed. Okay. So like that wasn't like a feasible solution. And then the other category was like the privacy tokens, right? Which is just a very different call to action it's like
buy z cash like like buy monero and price like store value category uh commoditized goods and
so that's that's really why we just built houdini swap because like there was nothing that was
solving for private transactions like just paying a friend or or whatever like issuing payroll all those
examples that we've already harped on a million times um and so like you know when i look at even
still today the landscape of privacy tools that are out there there's always just these crazy
trade-offs that a user has to make and it's like you know I have to bridge assets to a new network
that is you know low liquidity and I have to download new wallets that are privacy focused
or you know like like I have to live on specific you know like networks application it's just
I don't know it's it's not um you know but it's like Houdini swap. We tried to be as chain as agnostic as,
as possible, you know, like supporting over 120 networks, like non-custodial. We wanted to support
all the wallets. We wanted to just be like, you know, give people this currency exchange style
experience with, with privacy. Like we don't, we're not team Bitcoin. We're not team Solana. We're not team Binance. We're not team base, you know, like we just, we're just team crypto. And, um, and so we,
we really do feel like we are the closest to getting it right. And then, you know, if we can
figure out this, this truly on chain privacy with compliance, compliance you know without sacrificing any UX
design or any UX then that that is the moment where it it can be plugged into
every single wallet and it can be the default but as it currently stands it
needs to be an option because it doesn't cater to every single crypto user in our
opinion right now as much as we would like it to,
because they're giving up basis points
and they're giving up latency.
But in our eyes, we get compliance.
So it's just, we can't budge on that, unfortunately.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And thank you for all that really interesting context
or this privacy conversation that we had. Really awesome, Vinny Sw. And thank you for all that really interesting context or this privacy conversation that we had. Really awesome. Thank you. And I want to kick it back here. Go back to Paul here because I don't know how much time you'll have Paul. But how much time do you have left, Paul? If you have to go sooner?
Paul, if you have to go sooner.
Paul Jaymeadzik, I've got another 15, 20 minutes.
Paul Jaymeadzik, Okay, perfect.
So the top of the hour roughly is one.
So, um, do you, maybe we can kick it to the audience.
If anyone wants to come up and ask questions, Paul, does that sound?
Paul Jaymeadzik, That's always welcome for sure.
But I mean, that's the thing is I like to say when, when you build in the privacy
space, you don't actually get a lot of info about what your users are running into.
So you have to ask them.
And so this is our opportunity to just kind of ask,
what do people run into?
What do the people care about?
Where are we going right?
Where are we going wrong?
Because we can't determine that from within our own app.
100%.
Yeah.
Okay, guys, we're going to kick it to the audience here.
If you'd like to come up and ask Paul a question,
please request now.
We will accept you.
If you can't speak, but like to ask a question
maybe you can put in the thor chain um disk uh telegram excuse me or you can go to the main um
thor chain profile and go in the comment section underneath the the for this space i'll keep an eye
on that um okay paul well we only have a you know we're running a little short here you have to go
soon um i just want to is there anything that you would like to talk about that you don't
think we covered well in this conversation, anything you want to get off your chest or
any interesting thing you'd like to say?
Um, you know, 14 itself.
I mean, I come here not just to kind of ramble and share my thoughts, but also to learn from
and share my thoughts, but also to learn from other people.
other people.
I'd love to hear, you know, what has, you know,
at least in the past few months,
what have people been resonating with in the ecosystem of ThorChain?
What have people been asking for?
Also, what do they want with respect to the intersection
of ThorChain and apps like Edge?
You know, that's honestly my question, right?
And so in addition to just, you know,
what do people want out of Edge,
but like what's been resonating
and maybe even you guys are more core
into ThorChain team, you know, you can,
yeah, what have people been resonating with
or what have people been asking for in this intersection?
Because obviously this is the most relevant,
like, you know, where space is about Edge and ThorChain, but the intersection of the two, what do people been asking for in this intersection? Because obviously this is the most relevant, like, you know, space is about edge and ThorChain,
but the intersection of the two, what do people want?
What kind of integrations have they been asking for?
Is it more Rujira, DeFi?
Is it more staking of assets and bonding?
Yeah, what's been resonating for people?
Kenton, did you know?
Well, I'd say the last few months months um well our own swap interface that's definitely had
have been in topic conversation um i think like feature wise for thor chain
uh limit orders and rapid swaps um is kind of what's got you know what are rapid swaps
so basically like right now if you're if somebody's
selling a million dollars of bitcoin to buy ethereum that will go through a streaming swap
like like one transaction and then if say um someone else comes along and wants to sell a
million dollars of ethereum to buy bitcoin
that would start going in parallel as its own transaction its own streaming swap um
a rapid swap is when those two trades can can can cross can cancel each other out and you can have
the trade settle instantly. So like a streaming
swap a T WAP, you know, the trade might take it. That
million dollar trade might take, let's just say an hour. Don't
at me internet, I'm not sure the time but let's just say it
takes an hour. So you have both those trades happening
simultaneously, each one taking an hour. But with rapid swaps,
now it'll go through in one block in six seconds.
And that is that feature, the code is there, but it's not going to go live.
And there's a code there, right?
It's not going to go live to the next update.
But it wasn't, they wanted to sort out limit orders and get that dialed in and fixed at first, and it seems like it is.
So the reason everyone's looking forward to this is because we're hoping and expecting it's going to dramatically increase volume.
If we basically make it much quicker for these trades to settle, hopefully we'll get more volume out of it.
for these trades to settle um hopefully we'll get more volume out of it
yeah and obviously volume begets volume volume begets lower prices which also begets volume so
no no question about it that's awesome so what would you say that the priority being the the um
the faster swaps or the limit orders that people are mostly asking for obviously with the fast
swaps i presume there's not much of an intersection
as far as workload for apps like Edge,
meaning that they just kind of automatically happen,
or is there something that we would have to do
to get to that capacity?
Obviously, with limit orders,
there's a whole user experience
that would have to get built.
Yeah, exactly.
For partners like you, like Edge,
you'd have to build some kind of UI for limit orders.
But the rapid swaps, that all happens behind the scene.
That'll be seamless.
Basically like a streaming swap, right?
So you just go place a trade and it'll just happen.
I'm trying to think what else for the partners
to integrate from the wallet
point of view.
No, I think just to limit orders.
I think, I think everything else to just be automatic.
I don't Patriot.
Do you want to jump in or did you have,
can you think of something I can't or did he dropped?
I don't know if he's having trouble.
I do have one question.
When we first started implementing streaming swaps,
we tried to get them with a fixed price, right?
Where people kind of knew the price
that they were going to get,
and it was pretty close to what they were getting quoted.
And we found that swaps failed a bunch.
Well, actually, this has happened
before streaming swaps existed. With streaming swaps, we thought. Well, actually, this has happened before streaming swaps existed.
With streaming swaps, we thought, okay, well, this should improve things.
But we noticed one thing about streaming swaps is if you set a pretty aggressive limit,
that as soon as a streaming swap failed one swap, the entire swap would fail.
And I remember having this as a major request um to the thor chain devs at the
time which was can't you just keep the streaming swap going even if one attempt failed because it
doesn't mean that the rest of them will fail um and that could improve the amount of conversion
that the user gets through the streaming swap from an from an aggressive limit as opposed to
the whole thing just kind of dying right um. Has there been any talk of that?
Cause I felt like it would be a fairly small change to the protocol,
but with a pretty good benefit.
I agree with you.
I don't know.
I can't say.
You can ask Chad on Thursday,
next Thursday.
Good question.
Yeah.
I suspect part of his answer might be rapid swaps,
that that will help solve that,
like between limit orders and rapid swaps.
Because in theory, if we have an order book,
technically it's not a traditional order book,
but for all intents and purposes, an order book.
If there's lots of limit orders there combined with rapid swaps,
then it might make streaming swaps
kind of a moot point
because things will just be happening
so quickly to begin with.
And so we'll see.
We'll see how that evolves.
But that's a great question.
So with a limit order feature,
I mean, in a way,
limit order to some degree
isn't very different
than a streaming swap with a limit, except for whether or not the limit order can be partially filled.
Are limit orders intended to be much like in an order matching exchange, one that can be partially fulfilled?
Yes, they're going to be.
It'll just keep filling until it gets to fulfill um got it okay so in a
way that yeah if you if you put in a limit order that's below the current price right like say
you're buying you're buying an asset and you put a limit order and that's below the current price
then it will be much like a streaming swap but it will recover I guess the best way to say it, right?
You'll get some at the limit, get some at the limit,
some not, and therefore they don't fill,
and then you'll get some more at the limit.
And so if that is his answer,
I would love for you guys to ask that question.
I'm going to try to chime in on that Thursday if I can.
But if that is the answer, that would achieve that.
So even without a UI update, right?
Without a UI update, right, without a UI update,
we can be placing an order with an aggressive limit that will fulfill.
Although it does need one other feature,
the limit order would need to have an expiration.
If we can set an expiration, much like in the streaming swap,
you're kind of pseudo setting an expiration.
That way it doesn't sit there for days, right?
It goes for like an hour. And then after the hour, you got as much as you possibly could,
and then it's over and then the swap is done.
And so that would be the request
and see whether or not that actually replaces the need
that I know we've been looking for for a while.
Would love to have you on Thursday Space with Chad.
I think that actually that's a great opportunity that we need to um take advantage of is we have people like you builders ecosystems
where we have chad barefoot or we have another dev up there and you get to ask direct questions
particularly as an integrator of four chain so um yeah uh typically the the space on thursday it's
four hours later than the one that this start started. So, um,
hopefully that's good on, on, you know, on Thursday for you, but yeah, absolutely. Um,
and if you can't make it, I'll definitely try to get, we'll definitely try to get those answers
for you. Sounds good. Cool. I'll definitely try to make it. It's better than this. Cause
this is at like 7am my time, which can be tough on a, on a weekday. Um, but I have a conflict at 11,
but I can probably try to join in maybe half an hour late.
It'd be 2 PM Eastern on Thursdays.
Right. 11 AM. 11 AM my time. Yeah. Yeah. 11 AM my time,
which I have a daily standup at that time, but it's not, it's not very long.
It's like half an hour. So I'll see if I can join in afterwards.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And hopefully you understand that.
You're always welcome.
I mean, I wish it'd be great
if we had more devs, partners,
other integrations come up and ask questions too.
That'd be great.
I'd love to, even if it's just for 10 minutes, 20 minutes,
you don't have to be there the whole space.
You can come in and leave.
Yeah, sounds good.
We'll try.
But to go back to your original question,
what's going on in ThorChain, people talking about, excited about?
I don't know if Patriot, you had anything you want to add to that?
You know, it changes a lot.
I do my best to keep my pulse on what the community wants.
Our community has grown quite a lot, particularly now that we have this whole Rujir and app layer.
Really cool things are coming there, Paul.
I don't know, but lending, and I know it's a bit of a hot topic right now.
Good.
But it's like Aave.
It's a traditional form of lending where there's liquidations and stuff like that.
It's what's been existed for years.
But that's about to get lifted up there. So, you know, the community is really excited on that.
The most recent thing, and we've talked about, so I don't want to be boring, but it's privacy.
I'm seeing a lot of people in Thor chain really start asking like, okay, now that Maya protocol
has Zcash, right? And we're going to get Zcash too at some point. But, you know, let's talk about
Monero again. We have a node operator. I'll keep them anonymous, but they're advocating that we
take the old code from Black Protocol, which was our first attempt at adding Monero to ThorChain.
The libraries are now more secure on the Monero side. And so there are some voices saying, hey,
let's go for it.'s let's get the pieces moving
let's get monero added decentralized non-kyc permissionless access real layer one monero
so that's what i'm seeing right now that's the most recent thing yeah i can't champion that
effort enough um i know there's people on our team that keep reminding me is yeah i keep hearing
thor chain's adding monero monero i'm like, I don't know where that's
at, but I would definitely strongly champion that effort. I know there's strong interest in that.
One thing that I feel like hasn't been talked about enough in the DEX space
is whether or not there is an effort, a technology, papers, protocols to implement
more private swapping itself on the DEX,
meaning not associating the source transaction to the destination transaction.
And it's one that I've talked about internally within our team on how that could be done.
With, of course, there's trade-offs, much like Houdini swap was saying,
things will go slower, might have as as good of liquidity but i know it's you know there's probably a few ways but it's
definitely possible has that all been talked about or requested uh i'm hoping that what i'm about to
say is topical it's what you're saying so this is something that's really cool that's coming on the
app layer it's called redacted and And you can think of like a Zcash
model where you have, you know, shielded Zcash is in this big pool, right? And things go in,
things go out. And that is the obfuscation, if you will, right? And so what you would have on
the app layer, because on the app layer, there'll be secured assets, right? There'll be a IOU
redemption that are, Thorchain being the third, your custodian of that. You'll have a privacy
element that's similar to like the Zcash model. I'm super sorry if I'm butchering this, guys.
I'm doing my best here. But essentially, you can use any DeFi primitive you want that's coming to
the app layer, lending, perps, leverage, money markets, whatever we have on their prediction
markets with the secured assets. And
you'll have this ability to toggle on and off this redaction functionality that'll somewhat
resemble the ways like shielded Zcash, right? And so privacy not only comes to being able to swap
into it, but whatever DeFi primitive that you want to conduct can also be private as well.
to conduct can also be private as well.
Permissionless, no KYC, all open source.
And the one thing too, that's really important
that distinguishes I think the app layer is that
there is no information hidden behind a mirror.
There's no behind a curtain.
There's no Wizard of Oz.
Everything is fully auditable.
Everything's open source.
There is no liquidation and you're wondering why like why the
price oracle function the way it did maybe like on a binance or something else it is legit 100
the real deal that's happening does that does that somewhat butter your biscuit or is there
another element that you want paul um maybe i just need to understand that biscuit a little
bit better so i mean does it achieve the is there a way to achieve the goal?
Like, you know, if I want to swap Bitcoin to Ethereum, there isn't a trace knowing that this Bitcoin address source of funds ended up becoming Ethereum, right?
And then this Ethereum received on this specific Ethereum transaction ID isn't tied to the Bitcoin transaction, which obviously in
ThorChain, it's crystal clear, right? That this Bitcoin became that Ethereum and vice versa.
But is that redacted layer something that could achieve that end goal, right? If that's the end
goal, I don't want to be too fancy with like, you know, I'm going to do these DeFi operations,
blah, blah, blah. I just want to be able to do a swap, right? Something as simple as a swap,
but not have the source and destination of the swap
tied to each other.
On the app layer, and Kenton, please correct me
if your understanding is different,
but my understanding is, yes,
you'll be able to swap secured asset for secured asset
and you can turn on that redacted functionality, right?
So, and yeah, that would give you privacy for swapping.
That is my understanding.
I'd love to hook you up with the Rogeran guys,
so you can do the deep dive on this.
I don't know if you've talked to Pragmatic Monkey or Hans or any of those guys,
but now what we're building over here, it's really the real deal.
So, yeah.
Very cool.
If that's what it can achieve, you know, and with a decent experience,
then yeah, that's something I would definitely be excited about.
Yeah, I'm glad you keep saying that, that a decent experience, because really that's the core, getting the UX, that is so important. That's how we on-ramp people. We have to make the UX so good. So I'm so glad you keep harking on that because that is so true.
Kenton, I'll kick it to you. Is there anything you think I'm missing? Did I describe anything inaccurately? Yeah, I just want to kick it to you real quick.
Well, yeah, Redacted will be on the app layer, right? So I think what Paul's referring to is the base layer.
Yeah, it would have to be on the app, ThorChain's app layer,
that will be private with redacted.
But if you're doing like a basic layer one to layer one swap on ThorChain base layer,
that's like, I think what Paul is referring to where you see everything.
No, Chad has mentioned something about like kind of making all swaps memo-less
where like with the memo-less swaps,
it's recording less information,
which would also, which would help increase some privacy.
Yeah, but that's still fully traceable.
It just makes it a little bit harder.
So even a memelist swap doesn't quite achieve that goal.
If someone wanted to,
you just have to look at the ThorChain blockchain itself.
And then on ThorChain, there's a record.
So I don't think that achieves the same level of privacy
that I think we're kind of envisioning.
I don't think that achieves the same level of privacy that I think we're kind of envisioning. I don't think so either.
Yeah, I think kind of like privacy
in the base level on Torchain,
my understanding is that it can't happen
because everything has to be auditable, right?
Like everything has got a balance, right?
And you got all the nodes,
everybody has to be able to read everything.
And so this is one of the defenses or justifications for having
a monero pool for example is that the the privacy doesn't actually occur on thor chain like the
privacy would be happening on on the monero protocol so in theory thor chain should be fine
because there's nothing everything everything's public, right?
It can't hide anything because of the way ThorChain works.
and I've not really heard any,
my understanding is it has to be like that.
It can't,
we wouldn't be able to introduce privacy right at the base layer.
Yeah, it's because it exists on the real layer one um right and this means real we run real daemons of each layer one asset on thor chain so bifrost code all the
all the all the all that stuff um as far as i understand again as a non-dev um it's just
something that just would not be technically possible because it has to be fully auditable and it's it's beholden to the layer one itself now uh maybe there are some tweaks
to thor chain that this could change in the future some distant time down the line but just the way
that i understand cosmos sdk it's just that's just not possible with the app layer it is right and
at that point it's really just a ux issue um it's an additional step
but um you know that's the team that's that's what we're gonna do with marketing go ahead paul
well you know actually this is this discussion you mentioning that you know that's why you know
integrating monero is keys because that can become the privacy layer right like someone go from
bitcoin to monero and monero to eth and effectively disassociate the Bitcoin from the ETH.
And then from the viewpoint of usability,
I think that the missing piece is having a fast Monero in order to make it
about the same amount of time to settle as if you went directly from Bitcoin
to ETH.
And unfortunately,
all of the privacy chains that I think are on the radar for integration are currently too slow. So Monero being like 10 confirmations, 20 minutes, Zcash, even though it's two minute confirmation times, they say don't trust that. They're looking like 30 minute settlement as well.
30-minute settlement as well.
So if there were, and actually I do know of one chain
that will have fast proof-of-stake settlement,
that if integrated could be that privacy layer
to go between the different transparent chains.
And currently I'm a big fan of Zeno,
or Zano, however you pronounce it.
And that in 2026 on their current roadmap
is looking at going full proof of stake
where you'll have that fast finality in seconds. And it could then be that layer to, and heck,
I got to think about this a little bit more carefully and talk to our developers,
but it would be possible for an app layer, well, basically an app such as Edge to obfuscate that,
where when someone wants to go Bitcoin to ETH,
the app can automate the transaction going through another asset
such as Xano first and hiding, you know,
what's the source and destination asset
and effectively giving that end result in a two-step process.
But I think that fast finality is a key piece
to make that a bit simpler
and to give a better user experience to the users.
Yeah, I've talked to Zano on Spaces with Joel many times.
Great project.
And yeah, I didn't realize how fast their block time was.
And so actually, that's a really interesting argument you make there, Paul.
Like all kinds of lights went off in my head. I really like what you said there.
That makes a lot of sense to me. We do have a new speaker. I believe we're related to Edge here,
maybe. Simply, Bima, did you want to check your mic there? I want to make sure we get you in
before Paul has to go. Simply, if you are trying to speak i do not hear
you um i'll give you a few more seconds i understand it is probably not your fault it is x
rugging you as it always happens yeah okay we'll come back in a second go ahead paul oh i just want
to say um thanks a lot for having me i do have to bounce out right now. It's been a great chat.
I love what you guys are building at ThorChain.
Been a big fan for quite some time.
And so let's keep this space moving.
Appreciate you.
And don't remove yourself from the equation.
You also helped build ThorChain the way it is
by being so important in the early days
for helping us, man.
So I appreciate you.
Cool, cool.
Thanks a lot, everyone.
Thanks, Paul.
Cheers. Take us, man. So I appreciate you. Cool. Cool. Thanks a lot, everyone. Thanks, Paul. Cheers. Take care, brother. Kenton, this has been a great space. I have had so much fun with this space. What a great conversation we've had. I really loved it. Should we maybe give one
give one last call to the audience and if not maybe wrap it from here what do you think what
last call to the audience? And if not, maybe wrap it from here? What do you think? What do you say?
do you say yeah i just approved somebody um mike uh just came up yeah mike oh my god what's going
on brother hey going good no i love the space always appreciate you guys i i missed most of
it i'm coming in the tail end but uh every time i see you in a space, Patriot, I'm like, all right, I got to check this out.
I'm actually super interested in privacy.
You know, I've always been, you know, big on the right to repair individual digital privacy, all that kind of stuff. And getting into crypto, you know, it's like it seems like Monero has been our leading the charge as far as a privacy option.
are leading the charge as far as a privacy option.
And we had this kind of scary destabilization
from this cubic project
that's just cannibalizing projects and destroying things.
So I've been super interested to see what people come up with.
I know like midnight has been an interesting option coming up,
kind of looking at things.
But I was just listening to
you guys talk i don't know a lot of about this stuff but i was just wondering would it be
possible to make like a standing pool like a trusting pool of funds you know kind of like a
liquidity just a pile of liquidity right of different tokens and then if you initiate a
transaction the transactions are standardized
in amounts, right? So let's say it did like $10 increments or something like that. So that
if you were selling $100, it would send 10 individual transactions. And then once it goes
into that pool, out of the pool, you create a new wallet that it sends out part of the transaction
and then maybe some to a different wallet, but just retains custody for that one user,
right?
Like, which would be a big layer of trust for the network.
You know, as a user of the network, you're trusting a system to handle wallet creation
and management for you potentially.
But my thought is you just obfuscate through just having funds in funds out.
They all look the same and divided so that you can't just look at the amounts
going in and the amounts going out and match what's what.
But just kind of thinking like concepts like that, you know,
like I'm sure they've been considered and then the mechanisms and weaknesses of it understood.
I'm just curious if you guys had any thoughts on things like that, even though you can't do certain things with the protocol itself, with how the validators work.
Is it possible to do something where you obfuscate just through some kind of like pooled fund mechanism, something like that.
That's sort of what the redacted is going to be on the app layer as far as I understand, right?
Let's say you have XRP, right? You hook up your Xamon wallet, you get secured. So your native
XRP goes on 14, it gets converted into a secured asset that's on the app layer now. And then you have a toggle option that then you can make a,
it's kind of like a shielded Zcash, right?
And then each one of these secured assets have their own pool
that is air quotes shielded.
And then you can do whatever you want with that.
And then you're obfuscated in that manner.
It's encrypted, whatever you want to say.
You get your privacy that way.
In the exact design that you're speaking of, I'm not sure,
but this would be an interesting conversation for the Ruggiero does
because here's the thing with the AppLayer.
We can build almost anything we want to build, right?
It's just building what system makes the most sense optimally.
Is the system you described, is that the optimal way to do privacy
or is it the redacted way where you have these individual shielded pools of the secured assets and then you can move in between them?
Like, what is the optimal manner of accomplishing that?
Yeah, interesting conversation for sure.
And by the way, Mike, just so you know, I don't want to derail the conversation.
But, you know, lending is about to go full ham on the app layer.
So there will be no cap.
So native layer one Xrp loans my friend
they are coming and it's going to be like ave you know liquidations things like that you can choose
your own um metrics your own risk so something for you guys to keep eye out i know it might just be
the examine wall now i know joey wall another more popular but but we'll get working on that. Go ahead, your hands raised.
Oh, no, my hands down. That's a glitch. Oh, excellent. Yeah.
Yeah, I think on the privacy stuff, yeah, it's exciting about that coming on. I'll be
interested in watching that. But yeah, I think the most secure data is the data that doesn't
exist, right? So anything that gets rid of, not obfuscating data, but if you have systems, which I think if you're talking about the layer one, it's going to have its constraints there and that's where things get tricky.
So it seems like for most of these chains, obfuscation is kind of the game in town, right?
It just depends on what level of complexity it takes for whatever actor to have a system that is able to monitor it.
Right. Which you might be able to do some things with like floating, floating metrics on your obfuscation where it's constantly changing how it does things.
So a simple bot that's tracking one specific method wouldn't work.
tracking one specific method wouldn't work.
You know, it'd have to move around.
You know, it'd have to move around.
But yeah, I'm interested to jump in some spaces
if you guys are talking about what you're doing
on the application layer to solve that problem,
because I think that would be extremely beneficial.
And if ThorChain can crack that
and provide another privacy option,
that would be huge for all of crypto.
So definitely a big supporter of that if people are working on it.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I think next time we get I'm going to do a we got to get together with the
Ruggiero and just really see what you know what what what we can pull from that
because I like where you're going with the idea.
I 100 percent agree that privacy now is is going to be the standard.
I think it's coming.
So I'm really excited to get ahead of it and get going on it.
Real quick, I want to see, I'm going to give simply another shot at the mic.
Simply Bima or Bima.
Sorry if I got your name incorrect.
Go ahead and try your mic.
And if it doesn't work, I'm sorry, X sucks.
Give you a few seconds here.
Okay.
Patriot, I have to get going myself oh i understand yeah we'll wrap the
space up then okay i gotta get going too um okay uh anything else uh kenton before we wrap up
anything else you want to say i think that's good i think it's great appreciate the paul coming on
and everyone's time and um yeah we'll be in touch next week.
Yeah.
And thank you,
Houdini swap.
Thank you,
Mike.
And simply be my come up next time.
We'll get you buddy.
So sorry.
And guys,
what we're going to be doing the next weekend,
Saturday, we're going to have Thor wallet with Pedro.
We're going to give them another shop the week after that 24th,
let's exchange a Monero centralized exchange with Nadine.
Something we've talked about before, adding it potentially.
Very exciting conversation, guys.
So keep an ear out for that.
And I hope you guys have a rest, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I hope you guys have a great rest of your weekend
and we'll catch you all in the next one.
Take care, everyone.
Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank you.
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