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Introducing Seed Abstraction with Core Wallet
Recorded: Dec. 15, 2023 Duration: 0:50:57Space Recording
Full Transcription
hey everybody welcome to cores next x spaces it's been a while so we're excited to have have
everybody here today for for us to talk about seedless and seed abstraction with with core
wallet so really really excited for this conversation and welcome everybody in as we just got the room
open and we're gonna we're gonna let folks come join and trickle in so we'll give it a few minutes
but in the meantime we're gonna we're gonna get our our guests up here to talk about today's uh
announcement for for core seedless so let me get these uh speakers up here and then we'll get
started here in a few minutes so hang tight while i invite some folks up akash and julia i see you
right here gonna invite you up to speak here we go
hope everyone's having a good friday hope everyone's excited for the weekend
and the holidays coming up but thanks for jumping in right as we're getting started here
but you will uh we'll be talking about seed abstraction with core wallet today so as we
go along i'm going to be pulling up some info to the top board here so you guys can read through if
you haven't seen it yet um but let's get our speakers up and running there okay we got re-ends here
can invite these folks up to speak and then we'll get started
all right
here we go we're gonna drop the top up here
all right so for those of you um who are just joining us today but haven't really gotten into the
details of the announcement there's uh the thread here is is shared here to the top board um all right
we got julia and riyadh so far julia can we test your mic out how are you good how you doing kyle
doing good good uh really excited and uh welcome back to spaces i know it's been a while it has good
to be here i think the last time we did this was during the ios mobile launch yes yes todd todd what
cut i think was speaking for ios mobile i think he'll be tuning in soon too amazing amazing yeah
uh okay riyadh let me try uh your mic out how are you
good how's it going i am uh presently uh battening down a microphone emergency so i'm
hopeful that you can hear me and it will get better in a moment here it actually sounds pretty
decent already so yeah we'll hang tight and do what you need to do let me get a caution mac up here
um if you guys are there i'm inviting you up to speak so check your little invite pop-ups
or you can request to speak there there there's a cautious this went through all right
akash can we try your mic out how are you hey i'm doing great how's everyone doing can you hear me
doing great sounds good thanks for coming through um let's get mac up looks like it's gonna pop up
here in a second awesome all right sounds good mac we got you connected let's test it out how are you
cool good check check it's working sounds great sweet yep all right well we got our four guests
here we we know there'll be people that are joining us along the way as we kind of dive into the
conversation um so what i want to do first is kick things off uh by introducing the guests here and
i'll let them kind of give a quick intro on themselves so uh akash why don't you go first uh
tell us a little about what you do here at avalabs and with core sure absolutely happy to keep it a
little short as well but uh i uh i'm a product manager i lead the computer consumer products
business line here uh core is one of the products there and uh i've been here a little over a year
and a half super thrilled to be chatting with everyone and uh you know excited to get this
conversation going yeah glad to have you and uh welcome uh to spaces again riyadh why don't we go
over to you uh and just tell us a little about you and and cubist hey yeah so again here's the new
mic hopefully it's working sounds great um so yeah so i'm i'm riyadh i'm uh the ceo of cubist um
we work on um key management infrastructure in three words really thinking about how to build
super secure uh key management that actually gives a great ux good performance you know just
of course secure strong strong security um in my uh you know night job i'm also a professor
carnegie mellon i work on applied photography um so if at any point in this uh space i start to nerd
out just just start yelling and i will i will shut up i promise i think we're all here for the nerding
out so that's cool and didn't know you're a professor it's pretty awesome thanks for uh taking
the time to join us today thanks for having me absolutely mac what's going on man want to give
a little intro yeah sure so good to be back on spaces uh my name is mac i'm a product manager here
at ava labs my whole world is core responsible for core browser extension and core mobile so really
excited to jump on and share this with you all today um super cool feature
yeah absolutely excited to have you as well and uh last but not least julia want to give a quick
intro yeah my intro is going to sound very similar to max um except just product design side of things
i also lead extension and mobile for product design um and yeah that's the spiel
uh nice so we have the the whole gamut covered here of people involved in this uh awesome release
that we put out today so just to kind of kick things off i want to uh kick it over to you akash why don't
you just give us like a quick overview of you know c-list and what the vision for seed abstraction is with
with core yeah sure happy to so uh of course there's a big team that goes behind the launcher so i'm just
going to be talking and representing everyone else but want to firstly give a big shout out to everyone
who's you know putting the blood sweat and tears behind this amazing uh product launch and of course
our partners as well cubis uh you guys have been awesome um yeah that being said obviously we're
super thrilled uh that you know core has introduced the first of its kind experience and wallet creation
seed abstraction and basically core users can now create a wallet and a multi-chain seed phrase with
just your gmail without making security or custody trade-offs and uh anyone can now basically use
core without c phrases of course that possibility is still there uh for folks who want to use c phrases
and you know that does make sense in some sort of use cases and situations too but uh c phrases obviously
is a series of you know random words allowing users to recover a crypto wallet for those who don't know
but they do present uh you know a notoriously cumbersome and obstacle when it comes to everyday people
using and enjoying webcam products so um it's also pretty risky and you know if you lose your seat
phrase you don't know you know what to do so you can now generate and manage keys through a simple
webcam methods like gmail and apple logins making it more accessible uh without any sort of security uh
trade-offs that you know we've we've chatted more about in this call and you know of course mac and
um and we are going to kind of highlight more and get into more details on that front too
um but what's the catch right that's something that everyone asks right it's obviously first of
its kind and you know we'll delve into it a little bit more but um it's it's this wallet creation
experience that's been built uh on you know the avalanche ecosystem and beyond but of course seed
abstraction is pretty much universal it's not limited to specific blockchains or vms and you can use
your core generated seed across various blockchains from bitcoin to evms without the complexities of
multiple contracts and cross-chain issues that you know a lot of people encounter um and lastly you
know just kind of talking a little bit about why we did this right i think the why is super important
i think when people think of web3 it's uh moving into this this area of fear and anxiety and you know
there's any sort of trepidation that they might have and we we kept the sort of first principle
in mind when when we were kind of considering these these use cases from the very beginning
during some discover discovery around the product you know talking to our users and core basically
unifies these key tenets of web3 by enabling the simple frictionless and seedless onboarding but also
preserving self-custody and high security um so of course users are basically they have full freedom to
choose their favorite forms of sign up login recovery uh without dealing with that crazy
amount of anxiety that that often comes with it when you know you're trying to look for something so
um and uh yeah i'll pause there you know open it up to you know back to you kyle i guess to pass it
over yeah thanks uh yeah it's really great to see kind of what that that vision that's turned to life
in terms of creating like you said a first of its kind sign-on experience an onboarding experience
and before we kind of get into the technical details of really how this is possible mac i just
wanted to see if there's anything that you wanted to add as the the one spearheading a lot of this
development and you've been you know in the trenches on on this feet and building this feature
out and i know you uh had a lot to say and how this was built out so i wanted to see if there's
anything you wanted to add in terms of kind of that that vision for so why seedless was implemented
and how we made it possible yeah so i think you know the first thing to kind of look at is that
this is like the next chapter in account abstraction like erc 4337 was revolutionary everybody got super
excited about it but ultimately you know that's going to be hampered by the chain and then also by
contract deployment so what's really cool about what cubist has done and riad's team has done is that
they've created this tool for us to go to any evm um or any network right exchange p chain bitcoin
um subnets those may not be evms in the future um you know and we can we can have a wallet there and
we can transact and that's going to be the same seed that you use across everything else so it's really
just bringing this whole ecosystem into one place and allowing people to cross these borders do the
transactions that they need and then you know go somewhere else so i think that was really the
underpinning of this whole thing and there's a lot of really exciting stuff coming um from avalanche
in this kind of realm and so you know us being able to support all that is really exciting uh and i
really do think this is kind of the next chapter in in wallets yeah absolutely you know it seems like
it's almost this feature that's you don't know it's how good it is and how necessary it is until it's
there and i will get into a little bit later but it just seems like uh such an amazing tax to be able
to cover all of those chains and like the different virtual machines like you're talking about and
actually even just looking forward to the future about like what does the avalanche network look
like in the future and how does core kind of set itself up to to be the best wallet for that so
we'll get into that a little bit but i definitely want to kick it over to riad and you know we have
we have cubis here who's a partner in all this and i just would love to hear your thoughts and kind of
give us a little overview of what cubis involvement was in the development and kind of build of this
process yeah thanks a lot so first of all i really love the word that you love to use the word partner
here because uh you know i think it's been really from our perspective certainly it's been very much
a learning experience very much you know we've we've had a great time working with the core team
and with you know with avalabs more broadly i mean i think so so what's our what's our take on all this
well we've been thinking you know for a long time now about how do you build abstractions um that
really make it you know super convenient super secure super hard to mess up that's really kind
of these are kind of the the key things here right no pun intended right because it you can tell people
all day and i think what we hear a lot in the web3 ecosystem is this kind of pervasive attitude like
get good like like just well i mean come on learn about it learn learn the 24 word seed phrase and
how it all it's like that's that's one approach but it's not an approach that i think has the same
kind of widespread appeal as let's build an abstraction that really you know nails it really just helps
people to get things done without asking them to give up security without asking them to give up
custody of their funds without asking them to give up flexibility so that's kind of fundamentally what it's
about is thinking hard about you know how do you build a secure system that combines authentication
combines you know cryptography that handles uh you know making sure that the keys stay secure making
sure that um users are able to um do exactly what they want with their key material including take it
away take it to an you know another wallet if you really want and i think that's kind of like this
fundamental kind of trust issue if you tell if you tell users like hey you can use this thing but
you got to use it with us that's a very different thing from telling them look we have a great a great
product here and we think you're just going to want to stick around but you know you don't have to
if you don't want to and so i really admire that that uh you know that was kind of the the leading
line from from avalabs here was we want to give the users the choice to use this or not okay but i've
said a lot let me let me say one more uh quick technical detail here so basically the idea here is that
that your keys when you're using this wallet your keys live in secure hardware they live inside of
what we think what we call a virtual hsm this is a trusted execution environment that is fused to a
you know an honest to god you know fips 140 hsm and the result of that is that key only only gets
you know ever used inside of this trusted very narrow very focused you know highly secure environment
and so what that means is if you're using you know a bunch of different devices if you have your
phone and your browser and you know a second phone whatever it might be all of those can connect to the
same system all of them can generate signatures but you don't end up in this situation where you're you
know putting your funds at risk putting yourself at risk because you've always got this backing of
secure hardware that's making sure that your keys you know stay yours yeah yeah i mean thank you for
nerding out on that because i think it's absolutely crucial to to kind of understand the technical
details too because you know they're like akash said there's always gonna be this question like
like what's the trade-off you know what's the catch like how is this possible um and so just kind of
understanding how the keys are stored and how it's all secure and giving like you said users a choice
right you know one of the things that we wanted to make sure that we put out with this announcement
was that you can still use seed phrases like this isn't like a something that you have to switch to
right like you can create your own security mechanisms for how you want to like kind of
treat your own assets and your own custody um so i i wanted to kind of elaborate on something we
talked about a little bit which is like you know the kind of multi-chain support right supporting any
evm or even uh other subnets in the future so can you tell us a little bit about like kind of
the implementation of this like account abstraction method and how like maybe some of the the
challenges that you had to overcome to be able to make this usable across different chains yeah
absolutely so i think uh you know the fundamental challenge here is sort of decoupling um on the
one hand authenticating the user making sure this user you know really is the owner of of the you
know the wallet uh and then on the other hand what the wallet can actually do right so what you really
want like the ideal world is this is your wallet and by the way like it has all this functionality
it can interact with any chain you want it could right it's it's you know as if you've you know sort
of generated keys on on your local machine and and you know just interacted with whatever chains that you
want but doing that in a way where you get the protection of uh you know secure hardware you get
the protection of multi-factor authentication you get the protection of you know something like a
social login and and by the way like i i want to emphasize here like social logins that like google
like spends inordinate amounts of money making sure that like their uh login is super secure right
so this is like taking advantage of like existing infrastructure you know in a really nice way right
so um but so being able to put those things together in a modular way i think it's like kind
of the key uh again sorry um is kind of the main challenge here being able to say you know we've got
on the one hand we've got this sort of social login this mfa this you know really strong authentication
mechanism and then coupling that with all the cryptographic mechanisms that you need to interact
with different chains whether that's ebm bitcoin you know down the road you know other you know non-ebm
subnets whatever it might be um and so um you know basically the way that we think about that is
this what i've already mentioned this virtual hsm this virtual hsm should be as flexible as possible
it should be able to support essentially any chain and it should be super easy to add that support
without having to change anything else about the system right because if i say well yeah sure i can
add support for you know whatever chain you want but we're gonna have to you know throw away the
existing authentication mechanism and now that's useless right that that means that all the users
who are currently you know on the on the app now they're kind of left out in the cold so being able
to really make a clean cut between the front end that you know handles user authentication you are who
you say you are and the back end that actually handles all the cryptographic stuff that's kind of
the the most important uh piece of the challenge and i think one last thing here being able to connect
those two things in a really clean way by being able to say something like well you know what
this user has decided that you know if they're going to make a transaction on this chain they're
going to need something like mfa or you know if they want to if you want to add a new chain or if you
want to um uh you know export your key or you know recover your key like these require sort of
additional authentication like this being able to make decisions like that again independent of the way
that the cryptic the way the cryptography works under the hood that's kind of the most important
part of giving a really great experience here yeah yeah and i'm glad you brought that up because
i think like you said the the combination of the super technical cryptographic operations that are
happening with like just the experience that a user has like the choices they can make and that's
actually i want to uh it's a good segue because i want to kick it over to julia and julia as the
product designer here i'm sure when we're talking about ease of onboarding right like we're talking
about bringing in people that just the the seed phrase concept might be too difficult or they just
want to have different options and so when you design something like this i'm sure a lot of that
comes into play of like how do you present these options or how do you give people like a easy set of
steps to do so i'd love to kind of just hear a little bit more about um kind of the design
considerations you had to take when when building this out yeah absolutely so i think what was
super nice about this was we were able to do like a full end-to-end product design process so we were
able to actually interview some users and i think that actually really provided a lot of guidance as
to what people really want to see so we we made sure to hit the full spectrum of personas so we
interviewed new people from kind of the web2 space a bit more of the pro users and then also we wanted to
include the pro tech savvy users because our goal was to optimize for like web2 new users without
alienating our existing user base right because that's super important so one thing that we pulled
from the interviews was that with oidc so with this social login the most commonly used form of social
would be google and so we wanted to make sure that that was the most prominent one at the top and that
everything else that was another form of oidc was hidden behind another super easily accessible button
but just not as prominent as the most commonly used one and then we have seed phrase right below that and
we chose not to make any of them a primary fill so they're all the same gray in order not to freak
out our current web3 users by saying that we're really heavily promoting this new form of a seedless
login um so that's kind of how we did that with the very first onboarding screen and then another thing
we found out was our web2 new users wanted to have tooltips so in a later version we're going to make
sure on every single screen there's a really non-intrusive easily accessible way to get information on
every part of the onboarding flow and then mobile is obviously massively used by web2 users so i made
sure to work with the devs to make sure we could deep link anything and so mfa is super easy it pulls
a native prompt and then it pulls all of your authorization applications and then you don't even
have to leave the core application when onboarding which is a feature that most web2 users are used to
and will just make it a lot more seamless um and then just touching on not alienating our web3 users when
i was interviewing a couple people i wanted to make sure the ux copy was correct so the
tertiary link at the bottom that says that would have said already have an account has been changed
to already have a wallet because that encompasses more of any type of crypto wallet that is that is
compatible with our core application and not just an account which might be more kind of web2 slang or
terminology um and then one last cool thing we discovered in this whole process that makes the
experience better for our current user base was uh the 24 word seed phrase onboarding experience
there was a huge pain point for a lot of our users and through the interviews we found out
that instead of the single input field that the users would appreciate going back to that 24
or 12 or 18 word input phrase so we changed that as well so we really got to optimize for
web2 users and make it really simple and seamless and then we also were able to optimize
for our web3 users which was awesome yeah that's awesome i i when i was first kind of diving into
the product that that's one of the things that i was thinking was like oh is it does it go too far
into that like oh new user web2 you can only use gmail like if you know a crypto native person is going
to do do the same process are they going to feel like they can still set up the security in the way
that they'd like to so even going back to how best to lay out the seed phrase is something that's
super interesting because you know you could leave that alone and just focus on the the web web2
authentication login system right but just making everything as optimized as possible based on user
feedback i think is like super super important so it's really cool that okay yeah and there was
something else that we also underneath that tertiary link for our web3 users we have all of the logos
of the hardware wallets that you can that you can actually use to access core so that was another
way we wanted to use a really easy recognizable logo for our web3 users when they come to this new
onboarding screen so they know where to go that's more familiar yeah yeah absolutely just kind of
building off that were there any thing like things maybe on the top of your head that were like the
most challenging to kind of figure out in terms of like the flow or like how these pages were laid out
um i would say just figuring out mfa obviously we have you have technical limitations that come up
and so we had to change a couple of mfa's that were really commonly used and switch to ones that
were more compatible uh with cubist and then just kind of adapting that flow and making sure that
it's still as user-friendly as possible is something that i think we definitely had to
battle with a bit and we'll hopefully be able to keep improving as as we iterate on different versions
yeah absolutely i mean a product like that's never done but i think it looks so great so far
um so mac i kind of want to like jump over to you and and just kind of from from like a you know you
gave us a good kind of intro in terms of the vision of this product feature but uh let's talk a little
bit about like kind of what's next right is there is there things that are being developed on on top of
this c-list sign on or what in what ways does core kind of stand out from other wallets as we look uh
kind of post launch here yeah so good question um what's next is always on our mind so immediately uh
into next year the first piece is going to be improvements so we're going to look at expanding
the login options um for oidc so it's not just going to be google apple id um you know it might be x it
might be github um you know other things like that so we're going to look to add those things
as they come to us and then we're also going to look to expand uh the mfa stuff so right now it's
just taking one mfa uh item so we can improve our security posture by adding you know multiple mfa items
and then in that case you know if you lose one or one's compromised or whatever um you know your
wallet is still secure so big improvements on that and then looking further down the line is going
to be um vm support so as this narrative around you know subnets expands and different vms come into
play um those might be written in different languages things like that we're going to expand
support to those uh and all of the great applications that are coming with that so
you can take your wallet uh you can go transact on the c chain and then you know you could be able
to jump to whatever the hot new subnet vm is and you can transact over there and get airdrops and
farming and all that good stuff um so the two biggest things on our mind are just going to be
improving the offering proving the experience um and then vm support nice nice yeah it definitely ties into
the expansion of the network and we're seeing that already i think there's 99 subnets that are live
right now so you know there's a lot to it's a lot to expand and making sure that that wallet is poised
to be able to offer users like the best way to jump around those different networks i think is super
crucial and it's funny because i i i hear like people talk about like oh this is this is really
interesting like how did this happen you know like when you were doing research just across the
landscape what did you find in terms of like other wallets that maybe had tried to do this in a
certain way you don't have to necessarily mention the wall but like when you were doing the research
did you find that uh just no one had tried it yet or it was too difficult for certain walls to do it
because of the networks they were trying to like how did you and the team decide like oh we could be
the ones to do this yeah so we had some really good conversations with other um wallets and other to
be wallets that were kind of developing this space so i think what happened was erc 4337 came out and
everybody kind of had the blueprint to do this account abstraction thing and i think in a way it
kind of got everybody stuck into a hole they were all thinking like okay evm how do i do this on ethereum
how do i launch it on arbitrum stuff like that um and they weren't thinking beyond the evm which i think
was a bit of a mistake um but i just think you know the future was kind of unclear at that time and so
you know vm problem was super apparent because the x chain and the p chain are not the evm so
we have to support those we are avalanche's native wallet and so for us something like account
abstraction was never going to work and so you know we kind of had to look at it a different way and
say you know how do we get this wallet to work we can't use 4337 what are we going to do um but to
that note we talked to a lot of other wallets and you know i asked them these questions of how are you
guys going to handle multi-chain deployments and they kind of scratched their head and they're like
we don't know um and the ones that were really ahead of the game um we're figuring out how to deploy
contracts on other networks and then get those contracts to basically talk to each other uh which
is a whole nother task in itself and so yeah they're basically like you know pulling all these
contracts together and then there's some kind of api in the back end that's you know feeding this data
into the wallet and stuff like that and it just gets very complex very quickly um so that was
something we didn't want to do uh and then cubis kind of fell in our lap um and we started exploring
the cubesign technology um and that was sort of the end of the story we were like this is perfect
let's use this yeah yeah you saw it was possible riyadh i'd like to hear your your take on this moment
of when the avalabs team came and had this idea and you know like is this possible what can we do
here i'd love to hear uh kind of how how you and your team saw that challenge to be able to make this
happen yeah absolutely so um i can i first really quickly like add on to what mac just said like i
think this is like a super important point um i i think like in the long term i think a lot of folks
are really bullish on account abstraction um but i think if you look at the reality on the ground right
now things like account abstraction like are just aren't quite there yet and folks who are essentially
forced to use something like account abstraction um they kind of don't actually like have the same
range of opportunities to to interact with up three that that you know folks with eoas do um and and
this is a big problem right and this is something that we have been thinking about a lot like hey
sure account abstraction gets you like 90 of the way there or maybe it's 70 of the way there and it'll
be 90 in two years or like maybe it's only 50 who knows right because i think a lot of us have heard
these stories about like well i tried to use this defy application but you know it didn't work with
my wallet because i was using a smart contract wallet or i was using uh nowadays i was you know
maybe i was trying to use uh account abstraction and and that that kind of sucks right so like it's
just a bad feeling like oh man i i don't really get to participate in this so i think this was kind of
the the the like aha moment was when we were talking to the the avalabs the the core team and really
we were as we were talking we were like you know this is really what you have to do you have to get
somebody you have to be able to tell them look it's a you know it's a social login it's whatever
it is um you know use something that you're comfortable with and by the way if you do that
you're not going to be a second-class citizen right you're not going to be somebody who like only gets
access to half of uh you know web three and you know just wait for a while and maybe it'll get better
because like i think we've been telling users to wait for a while and it'll get better for a long time now
so um so that was that was kind of the thing for us was like as we were as we had been thinking about
these like abstractions to make sort of the use of keys better like we actually started from the
developer perspective like how does a developer use keys and and like interact with the the network
and as we did that what we realized was actually you know the bigger problem is the users right like
what you what you found what we found talking with customers talking with with folks um even before
we talked to ava was um you know people said la you know the seed phrase that's a really big problem
but as soon as you you know try to get rid of the seed phrase there's the next problem what's the next
problem well maybe it's performance maybe it's something else but like you end up there's a there's
an onions worth of problems and as you peel the onion you learn new things um and so this was like our
experience having this conversation about you know making a really awesome wallet experience that that you
know just works that's just gives a great user experience um was how do we sort of forget about
peeling the onion we just want to slice it in half like we just want to get to the core we want to
make something oh my gosh no pun intended um we want to make something that's kind of amazing and so
look i think the fact that i mean we'd already heard from from julia like they've thought really hard
about how to make like a really good user experience right like this is exactly the kind of folks that you
want to work with because like at the bottom i'm a plumber i mean like i i'm a i'm a cryptographer
i'm not i'm not like my my identity my idea of a good user interface is like a command line interface
right so like but being able to talk to someone who says this is how we have to think about you know
making users delighted like that's amazing because like now i i can help i can like start to sort of
point people in the right direction like oh maybe this technology will help maybe this technology will
help so then finally sorry this is slightly long-winded so finally like as we were like having these
conversations we realized this is really this is how you're going to do it you're going to be able to do
like social logins you're going to be able to have mfa you're going to be able to sort of completely
control your own destiny without having to worry about seed phrases without having to you know worry
about you know bad bad performance or you know the inability to interact with half the half of web
three or or whatever it might be and by the way you're not trapped right this is the other sort of
really big point here um that i don't think we've touched on yet is if somebody decides they want to
use the sort of new um social login experience and they decide tomorrow like i don't love it that
much there's a mechanism to just like go back to seed phrases like you keep your wallet now you have
a seed phrase instead you're you're you're in the same position that you were you know two days ago
so i mean this is really kind of a cool thing that that like you really get to have your cake and eat
it too and i think fundamentally this is from sort of the technology that we've been thinking about and
really like the user experience and like the experience of building a great wallet that the
core team had been thinking about yeah yeah it's really awesome to to uh kind of hear the genesis of
that and and kind of how everybody you know attacked this challenge from all different sides you know
like you said from the the lowest level development to incorporating what users need and incorporating
that experience and actually kind of leads to another question i have for you mac was how how did the core
team incorporate that user feedback i know julia touched on a little bit in terms of how things
were laid out and how they were designed but what are some other ways that you and your team kind of
incorporate user experience and user feedback into the development roadmap and like what were some
of like the user requests that you kind of had to incorporate in here yeah so specifically for
this feature i'll talk specifically about this and then kind of generally because i think it's important
to talk about this stuff but um specifically for this it was a series of interviews that were done
i believe they were mostly internally but basically our process is this the design team you know gets
a specification from product and that's something that i worked with riad and his team to build out and
then also other leadership with the naval labs to to build out the seedless specification and then that
goes to design and basically what design starts doing is they create these prototypes so these are
initial mock-ups of what the ui is going to look like for this feature and then they're going to
take those prototypes into these interviews in this case they were with stakeholders within ava labs so
we're super lucky here that we have a really wide range of crypto experience so we have people that are
brand new to crypto they're just coming on chain they haven't really done any kind of the degen stuff
and then we have people who have been you know degening since 2015 like long before you know i was in the
space so uh basically you know she and todd sit down with these people and they walk them through the
the uh prototypes and they say what do you think about this you know what about this button placement
what about this flow things like that and then they collect all this feedback um they sit down they
analyze it they kind of chew on it and then that gets put into you know v2 v3 v4 designs um and
ultimately we kind of go down that path and we come to a final design consensus but the big piece is that
once we have a design and we do something like we're doing today where we launch a feature
um we're not done so we're always taking feedback in from the community so if you're putting feedback out on
telegram on discord on twitter um the avalanche forum honestly reddit like we take this stuff from
everywhere if you talk about core on the internet we probably have seen it and we probably catalog it
it's kind of creepy to say that but it's true um we do listen to everything that everybody says and
basically when things hit a certain threshold like if we get you know a hundred pieces of feedback on a
certain feature that becomes really important to us um and so that's something that would probably
make it onto the roadmap so yeah basically kind of the the announcement to the community on that one
is that request features uh give us feedback on twitter we do read it we do catalog it and it
certainly impacts our decision making process
yeah absolutely i've seen even just a lot of the stuff coming in today about a lot of the positive
feedback we're getting on seedless and how easy of an experience it's been for users that have tried
it so far so yeah really awesome um i we're gonna we're gonna uh go through maybe one or two questions
left here but i wanted to let everybody know that we're gonna uh open it up for a few questions from
the audience after this so i see there's a couple requests up already but if you have a question for the
team uh feel free to request to speak with the mic button on the bottom and we'll call you up one by one
but kind of to close things out a little bit to akash actually i want to go back to you um so we have
this seedless announcement and there's been some other features that have been launched you know in
the last couple months but really like you and matt kind of both mentioned like core is this home for
all things avalanche and it's also being built for the future of what avalanche is going to become
so we'd love to hear about any other like upcoming features or anything else that um
um you feel is going to kind of continue to elevate that wallet experience for what avalanche is
becoming yeah absolutely i think uh just take a step back obviously this is early stages and um you
know our goal here are not stars adoption right so we're kind of in our early innings right now and
and with this sort of new launch right it kind of propels us to be at uh sort of the cutting
edge of what things are sort of moving towards so keeping keeping that sort of at the back of
our minds is something really important and mac actually just touched on really uh really amazing
things around you know immediate improvements as well as supporting the next generation of the vm
um and uh you know if i were to expand obviously without dropping too much alpha and everything in
terms of the roadmap right there there are three or four main areas where i would sort of talk about you
know where core would would go one is of course making core that go to consumer hub the the utility
for the avalanche networks is basically supporting everything from the xcp chain subnets having that
be working extremely well uh across all three properties of core extension mobile and web we got to make that
work seamlessly it's it's it's it's all coming together right we have this interoperable sort of capability
between our product suite kind of like very very similar to what apple did uh been about five six
years ago where you can have uh people communicate across different device types and you know things
are extremely secure and private uh from that sort of sense or at least they've upheld that sort of
privacy angle pretty well um and of course core sits in the middle of everything right so core just
absorbs all this amazing technology that avalanche has in place and it's continuing to build towards so
uh you know vm upgrades that you know max spoke about core will become the home of uh where that
lives and how people can interact with all these amazing vms and subnets right that's uh core becomes
the home for that so working closely uh with the web team as well the core web core.app if you if you
work and you know use that product right it's uh it's it's all sort of living there but it's all working
in unison so that was the first sort of thing right making sure that core becomes that that hub
or the consumer hub um the second thing is uh you know some of the cool things that we're doing are
around interoperability uh we also kind of engaging with the idea wallet as a service so i think with
a lot of our customers who are doing this uh and want this from this feature they kind of want to be
able to extend this as a wallet as a service and be able to just fork the code and then move forward
with it so that's an idea that we're actually tinkering with that as well and and being able to
support this next generation of the vm being vm agnostic as well as something that you know core
becomes the home for i touched a little bit on teleporter uh we've already you know um talked about
this uh with the entire community it's coming out very very soon uh but of course once people want to
interact uh and move assets from one subnet to another subnet they can do that all within the comfort
of core so um you know that's that's something that core will support call will continue to build
towards it um and you know we'll we lean towards our internal differentiators uh defensible technology
essentially um and lastly uh i would i would say just uh you know we want to make sure that this
entire product speed same stays competitive we have a world-class experience so we're always talking
to our consumers around our end users around hey what do you really want to see so a lot of folks are
thinking about hey we you know core is has everything in it but can we see less or can we see more
depending on how we want to do it so we're thinking of like different modes like a basic or a pro mode
uh where you know users can come and engage with the deep tech that we have those with avalanche but
when they don't want to right they can kind of execute things really quickly as well uh we are thinking
about uh you know continuous staking is coming uh pay as you go subnets coming uh and then of course
we're also actively considering gamification and avalanche as well because once that happens then you know
people are just going to want to uh do things on core and and you know gamify the experience get
rewards loyalty programs so on and so forth of course i'm not saying we're going to do all of this
uh all this takes time but this is this sort of where our head is at right and all this keeping in mind
our ultimate goal is adoption so um you know we we're gonna try we're gonna you know listen to our
community we're gonna do our best to do this as soon as possible while keeping in mind that we're gonna
make sure that the products are safe the secure and they're absolutely functional for for everyone
who wants to use it nice that's a great rundown and i think uh a lot of that really ties together
a lot of things we've been talking about here in terms of user experience and building for that kind
of multi-chain world even just on the avalanche network uh but while also really focusing on security
as well um cool we're going to jump into the q a section we'll take a few minutes here uh we'll
get a couple questions up so uh a good friend avax chicken you are oh thank you guys and congratulations
i think this is a really cool feature um i was gonna ask kind of a comment kind of question
so when stars arena launched i i i was really amazed by one of the features was their ability to use twitter
to create these temporary wallets to onboard users so quickly i thought that was the most fascinating
thing uh because they were able to onboard so many users so fast i was wondering did you guys take any
inspiration from that i mean did you see like i mean it was probably one of the greatest things i took
away from stars arena and i don't know if you guys saw it but i thought that was the most beautiful thing
they did i don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that thanks yeah again i i can take this one um
first off i i agree with you i think um stars arena and kind of friend tech before them um doing this
like in-app wallet generation thing was really cool personally i think that that's going to be a big
thing to watch out for um in the coming years around you know daps and whatnot daps launching
their own wallets there's a few providers out there that do this um and as far as inspiration goes
uh i don't think it was direct inspiration i would say that you know the seedless stuff was already
rolling by the time stars arena had deployed um but the flip side of that is that it was definitely
validation um the fact that a web 2 aligned like wallet creation mechanism got so much traction
was really validating for us and you know our building out of this feature we saw that and we
were like okay you know people want to sign up with their web 2 properties so um yeah i think it was
matt quick question are you is the is there an authenticator integration part of the is that like
all going to be tied together or is that just come by natural by me using gmail yeah so there is an
authenticator piece to it um so once you sign up with gmail you have to add a 2fa to the wallet and
that 2fa can be authenticator if you want very cool very cool thank you guys i think this is an
awesome release for you guys awesome appreciate it man thanks for coming up and uh for all the support
as always and for the kind words here and yeah we're definitely on the same page as you that this
is uh like you know so first of its kind i think it's going to lead to a lot of new things um great
thanks for the question uh we just had one more that was up here but just dropped if there's anybody
else that has a question uh we'll give it a second for um you to request up but yeah in the meantime if uh
for those of you who might have joined partial part of the way through you could head to uh the two kind
of announcement posts we have here at the top board uh both from core and from cubis so you can dive
in there there's links to uh check out the technical overview of uh kind of going into more of the
the development side um and there's also links to just get started with core so uh both on extension
and mobile um you can get started there so uh uh i'm actually so i was just gonna give a suggestion
because i was thinking you know because i'm just so heavily involved in the chicken community
and it's like onboarding like even for the games that you guys are all working with like
the ability to onboard users easily because like just you know you're playing with chicken or whatever
other games you guys are working with this makes it so much easier for these communities to onboard
people who otherwise wouldn't know crypto you know that's the goal man that's and yeah you're seeing it
with communities like chicken or some of these other games um you saw it with stars arena too you
know like the easier the steps are the more that people are willing to try it out and maybe not
get scared by certain steps but then there's also still ways to to keep things secure so you want
to have one without sacrificing the other and i think that's that's the ultimate vision here and i
know kasha and mac and everybody here touched on that so we are aligned man we appreciate it
um all right cool let's uh let's wrap things up i know we're close to the hour anyway first off want
to give a huge shout out to riad and the cubist team thanks for joining our space and thanks for all
the work you've done and let's close it out if you guys have any quick closing thoughts and then we'll
wrap things up so riad we'll go we'll kick it to you first oh my gosh it's been so great working
with the avalabs team and with core um the the core team like this is this is a fantastic team i mean i'm
sure the folks on on the space already know that because they're listening to the spaces all the
time but but man it was a total total pleasure to work with y'all um i i'm super excited uh what what
uh the comment we just heard was was exactly spot on like getting people in um without sort of making
them feel like uh hey man you gotta learn everything before you start doing anything like that's to me
that's number one so i'm super pumped about like how much this is going to just open the door
really really really opening the gates yeah man i think we're all super excited and we feel you on
that one so and i'm really glad you had a great experience working with the team uh so yeah mac and
akash anything you guys want to share before we wrap up uh yeah i just want to echo that um you know
cubus has been amazing to work with riad you and your team um are awesome i think we've been on the
phone weekly since a long time it's been a few months um but yeah really really love working with
you and really excited of what we both created and launched today yeah back at you i don't think i
have much to add i obviously um you know i wanted to echo the same sentiments uh mac touched on it i'm i'm
excited to you know continue this partnership it's there's a lot more i feel that you know is uh
this is coming down you know we're building towards a very very exciting 2024 um i think um you know
looking forward to continuing to work together with uh riad you and your team and um and of course you
know working closely with the community you know if y'all have feedback please share that we're always
actively looking to improve uh this is one of the most dedicated teams uh i would say um and you know we
are uh we're thrilled to bring this to market yeah yeah excited really excited to see this come to
life i know a lot of us have been looking forward to this for a little while so yeah go try it out
let us know what you think like all the team said here we really take a lot of feedback to heart and
try to make the experience as great as possible so and one of those things is we just appreciate
you coming on this space and listening to us and let us know uh if you have any feedback and uh we'll
move on to the next thing and uh yeah so go check it out check out see this thanks to the whole team
thanks riad and we'll talk to you all soon have a great weekend and a happy holiday thanks everyone
