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Is Bitcoin Digital Gold? Precious Metals Mania in 2026? 🤔 The Aggregated Ep. 148
Recorded: Feb. 6, 2026 Duration: 2:56:33Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the current state of the market, highlighting extreme fear as indicated by the crypto fear and greed index, alongside the launch of new tokens and partnerships aimed at digitizing real-world assets. The conversation also touched on the growing interest in precious metals as a hedge against inflation and the integration of AI in decentralized finance, signaling a shift towards innovative financial solutions.
Full Transcription
Thank you. I'm going to go to the next video. Oh Thank you. The Thank you. Oh Thank you. Music Thank you. emg and everybody
was my music going or was it totally silent there
nope music was going on my end
so you're just vibing to it bro yeah i have i had silence but just with the
assumption that the music was there so i was just vibing to silence it's weird how that is on x faces
that uh some people hear it uh i was on a show with Alex recent or on her show recently and Alex Dansker.
And there was two music roles going at the same time.
So it's like either someone doesn't hear it, there's two going on or, you know, you hear it.
So good times on X.
But great to be hanging out with all of you guys on a friday
uh i would i would say sentiment is very very very low right now i was just talking with some
friends in a chat and they showed the crypto fear and greed index and they actually I've actually never seen it this low before in their screenshot it was at five I checked the link and it was at nine so must be because of the bounce that's currently taking place I see that Bitcoin is back on top just barely of the 200 exponential or the 200 week exponential moving average so
uh pretty wild times i i a lot of people i spoke to over the last couple weeks
just didn't think that the price was going to get this low but
um i guess we can dive into that a little bit later just interesting to see like the this
market and how tumultuous it is but of course today the uh show's about is bitcoin digital gold
precious metals mania in 2026 episode 148 so can't wait to chop it up talk some gold and silver with you guys
some metals learn uh some stuff like like we always do on this show uh i'm gonna go around
and just see how everyone's doing uh really great to see friends here on the panel um
and and thank you everyone that has joined us today in this crazy market,
and let's kick it off here.
It doesn't look like Rock.
I think Rock was having technical issues or something,
but I saw him for a second.
Is he up here, or am I just rugged?
No, I kicked him.
Like you legit kicked him or he
because I know you do play these
games. Yeah, no,
I'm the captain now.
Good times. He'll be up soon, I'm guessing.
But yeah, let's go ahead and just start passing
the mic around. I want to,
I'm guessing this is Jordan
from Rift.
Yes, it is and uh great to be with you guys love love to be a part of the spaces um
man it's been uh i mean i've been a part of the spaces i think since inception right so
yeah um it's been a long time man um but but yeah a lot of exciting things happening over here at
rift we recently launched in our tge my name is jordan by the way for anyone that doesn't know me
i'm the ceo rift chief executive opener of rifts and what we do is we provide a layer of connectivity for RWAs, NFTs, tokens, and all kinds of different digital assets.
And we were actually invited to this space because we are working through our partner, Global Gold.
We're working with U.S. Gold Treasuries.
We're putting gold on chain through our protocol
and through different mechanisms.
And we're working with other precious metal companies
and working on different contracts and things like that.
So we definitely have some insight
into the different pain points
that these large institutions or enterprises
or governments are facing
when it comes to putting precious metals on chain.
And I'm excited to be a part of this conversation and see, you know,
what we can learn more and just enjoy our Friday morning together.
Beautiful. Awesome to have you here, Jordan.
Yes, you're 100% right.
I remember you from like
the very beginnings but i mean just so everyone knows i i've known jordan like way before these
spaces so it's it's it's awesome to have a friend here on the panel um and uh i think like i met you
like in the early polygon days really so this is, I don't know, four or five years ago.
Five years, bro, five years, yeah.
Yeah, so yeah, so awesome.
And I love that you're founding Rift
and you guys have, looks like some really awesome
partnerships here.
Love to dive into tokenization.
Sometime on this call to pick your brain on that.
But yeah, great to have you here, bro.
I'll go ahead and pass the mic on over to N Park.
Just maybe take like 30 seconds, introduce yourself, please.
Yeah, I appreciate being invited onto the show.
Matt and I, Matt Harrowing, and I have worked together now six years.
I've been mostly a listener and someone that has been appreciative of the show.
And I'm the director and chief marketing.
I'm a key director and chief marketing officer of ION DigitalCorp.
I'm a director and chief marketing officer of ION DigitalCorp.
We focus on digitizing verified gold reserves and taking them on chain, specifically focusing on in situ.
So gold that's still in the ground.
And we basically turn that value that that gold represents into programmable assets.
And then we are using partners like R and instruct see and others to uh take that
to the market so it's an exciting new way to you know um create value for gold without having to
necessarily go through the financial and you know um environmental costs of digging it out of the
ground so it's a it's a pretty exciting project.
We've been doing it for seven years,
and it's really a passion project
that's starting to really see the light of day.
So I appreciate the opportunity to share what we can.
Beautiful.
Yeah, it's great to have you here.
And so it looks like we're definitely going to have to talk
about tokenization here in a second.
I'd like to, you know, before we dive in fully and after we introduce everyone,
I'd like to kind of just jump into gold and silver and the markets in general
to just kind of get your guys' thoughts on the macro and of the situation
and how it affects Bitcoin and etc and your guys opinions
um but yes tokenization it sounds like you guys are also experts there and i'd love to pick your
brain as well uh great to have you here ken uh i guess uh let me go ahead and uh pass the mic on
over to uh arwen i believe i believe ken said your name is Matt.
Yeah, that's right. Hey, can you hear me okay? I'm trying a new microphone now. Does it work?
Sounds good. Great. Yep.
Sweet. Yeah, good to meet you. It's nice to see some familiar faces as well on the sex spaces.
spaces. So I'm the CEO and co-founder of Instruxie. Instruxie specializes in the bridge between the
Web2 world and bringing assets on chain or really tokenizing anything. So our thesis has always been
that in order for an asset to be an asset, in order for an ID to be an ID,
it has to be tethered in the real world.
And you've got to form an unbreakable,
verifiable, trustless, golden thread,
as Chainlink calls it, between the token
and the data that verifies
the actual authenticity of the asset. And that data could be
in a dozen systems. It could be just some deeds, some titles. But what we specialize is in forming
that bridge. So we built a full stack solution that can pretty much connect to any enterprise system.
So if you, so for instance, your assets might be in a treasury management system.
You might have to track them through AP, GL, AR, inventory.
It doesn't matter to us.
We can connect to your enterprise systems.
We can connect to your on-chain tokens.
We can build proof of reserves. We can build oracles. We are
an authorized Chainlink reseller. We do an awful lot of work with Chainlink. We were on here,
actually, we're on one of the last X spaces talking about how we use Chainlink CRE. We think
they're great products. And yeah, we help clients bridge tokenized real world assets.
We've been, gosh, we've been doing it for a number of years.
We got into the game really because we started to do, this was pre-InstructSea,
we started to figure out how on earth do we, how do we use blockchain technology
to really create this concept of universal ledgers?
So we started working back in 2016, 2017 on integrating blockchain technology into SAP and Oracle as a team.
And just kind of evolved through different iterations of using data fabric concepts, data mesh concepts.
using data fabric concepts, data mesh concepts, and coming up with these hybrid architectures
where we're using the principles of blockchain and web 2 to secure blockchain and we use the
principles of tokenization to enable value to be seamlessly traded with all of the security
and verification that you would expect from a web 2 middle office, let's say.
verification that you would expect from a whip to middle office let's say
thanks for letting me do the pitch just one question did you have you have you bought
or are you on the sidelines are you in yeah i'm i'm i'm all in bro like uh i'm uh are you buying today actually i bought yesterday did you man wow okay so you're
hardcore yeah i'm definitely as hardcore as they come man i'm a cypherplunk and i'm also a
co-founder i'm also cso at lunar digital assets um so yeah i'm all in on on uh
crypto and the markets and that's that's why it's so great.
Can I ask what you're buying?
Litecoin.
Digital silver.
Seriously.
I've got to say, Litecoin have the best social media presence.
Oh, yeah.
They're just brilliant.
Now, that's interesting. Okay okay it's probably not for this but
i'd love to hear the thesis some point oh for sure for sure i'd love to too and it's uh and
and we probably will since it's digital silver uh i'll probably uh throw some litecoin in here
in just a second but um let's let's go ahead and get everyone introduced here. And great to have you here, Matt.
I can't wait to pick your brain as well on all things tokenization.
Sounds like you have a good idea of the back end of how this is operating.
So really exciting.
So thanks for being here on Friday so we can dive deep.
I'll go ahead and pass the mic on over to Beats.
What's up, brother? Good to see you.
Yay, Aztec. Nice to be here.
I'm sorry about last time Darren invited me on and we had the Milady space and I didn't show up.
But, you know, I had to stay in character.
Nice.
There was a m'lady's face?
I was talking to Darren at one point.
Remember the Black Friday one?
It was literally his idea.
He was like, we were like, yeah, we're going to skip that week.
And then he was like, no, you should have this topic.
And we were like, okay, we'll do it for you.
And then he didn't show up.
Oh, yeah, yeah should have this topic. And we were like, okay, we'll do it for you. And then he didn't show up. Oh, yeah.
Now I remember.
We had a lot of fun with that space, though.
It was a great theme, right?
It was.
It was, bro.
It wasn't there.
But I had to do it.
I had to do it.
Yeah, sometimes it works out that way.
But I'm glad you're here today.
You got to tell everyone about you yeah yeah i've uh i've also been in space for a while i i do a bunch of
different work i work a lot with this project called planned ix i do the partnerships and
network and such and other than that i just hang around and connect people and uh i just say uh watch my lady posts
on twitter and i also buying stuff i'm also buying with this where the market is going down but i'm
actually buying a bit mine stock instead right now interesting very interesting so the uh is this uh
Interesting.
Very interesting.
So the miners, right?
Yeah, no, it's Tom Lee's ETH Treasury company.
The debt.
The debt.
Okay, I got confused there for a second.
I think they have like almost 4% now of ETH supply
and they started staking it.
So my bet is sort of that he's getting all the big boys in
and then sort of a little bit of a leverage play on ETH.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can see that.
The DATS have definitely cooled off.
But, you know, I just said recently,
I think that DATS will come back really strong,
especially with the bounce,
which is probably what has caused
more of the cool off.
So that's Ron's cell.
But yeah, great to have you here.
I've seen a post yesterday that every single
dat is in the red.
Yep.
Even strategy.
It's also kind of nice.
I kind of like the chaos.
It's somewhat soothing to embrace the madness.
That's why I pinned this up there.
I pinned this post, you know, be retarded to win at life.
It's actually a great read.
Cool, man. I'll take the read.
But yeah, it's a sea of red i i enjoy the chaos as well
kind of uh shows you a lot about the market and um kind of helps reset things and if you need to
reposition you can but yeah beats i can't wait to pick your brain as well. I'm going to go ahead and pass the mic on over to Woof.
Good to have you guys back.
I'm going to get everyone introduced so we can jump into the meat of the conversation, guys.
Sure, yeah, I'll be quick.
Name is Alex.
So we built for Compound, for Avalanche, basically anything that you can think of on EVM.
For me personally, it's a very interesting topic,
especially today and yesterday and for crypto
and hoping to have a great conversation with you guys.
Beautiful, great to have you back on the show as well.
And so here we are, here we are, guys.
Market is pretty red, we're getting a bit of a bounce. Let's start with gold and silver. Actually, hold up. Before we jump in, Rock, you're back.
Hello, hello, friends.
What's up, man? How's your morning going? And are you ready for this gold and silver combo?
How's your morning going and are you ready for this gold and silver combo?
I'm ready. Gold, silver and digital gold and digital silver.
Yes, definitely going to have to talk about some hard money today.
Yeah, so I'm Rock Zacharias. I'm the CEO of Lunar Digital Assets.
I'm co-founder of Quickswap.
I should note that Lunar Digital Assets incubated QuickSwap and Polygon and is
incubating Litecoin Virtual Machine or LitVM and many others over the years. Been in the industry
for 11 years now. Let's see, I'm a mentor for Tim Draper's Bitcoin Fi Accelerator and I'm head of
Global Leadership Council for Michael Turpin's BitAngels,
which is an investor pitch network. We have 50 cities around the world. We have on average
one to two events per week in major cities around the world. We have one coming up in just about a
week in Hong Kong for consensus. So if you're going there, come check it out.
I am Bitcoin maximal-ish.
So I coined that phrase, I think, I don't know,
eight years ago or something.
It means that I think Bitcoin is the king,
but I do believe there's great other technologies
like Ethereum and Litecoin, etc., Polygon, that we should be exploring all of these technologies and letting them all compete in a fair and open market.
But that at the end of the day, Bitcoin is the king and it's, I think, one of the greatest asset or asset classes ever created.
Yeah, good to be here with you guys.
Yeah, always good to chop it up with my friend here.
And, you know, like, Brock, we're both co-hosts here and made this show together.
And, like, this is – I always learn so much from you as well like
you you got a very deep mind not not only like a very uh extensive history in this space um but
always good to chop it up with you bro um amen what do you what do you think rock we start with
gold and silver or sure i think it's you just to kind of dive in tip or toes into this conversation.
I'm, I'm guessing a lot of people that, uh, seeing digital gold and precious metals, mania
probably want to know, they're probably here.
Like everyone always comes to these spaces and they, they want to know about prices,
but I like to dive maybe you know it's always
great to touch price but also just like what is behind all the mania you know and uh if you're
new to this show uh please you don't have to raise your hand um we we just uh run the show like it's
just a bunch of friends around a table talking so you you can
just jump in whenever you want um if you're not talking i'll just call on you uh but but don't
rely on me just jump into the conversation and uh so yeah let's let's start off with with gold and and silver um so basically we see gold really kind of leading the way recently and i'm wondering here
for the panel so anyone can jump in but what is this signaling is like something broken
in the global financial system right now or is it signaling something else and there's no wrong answers i'm just
wondering what you guys think you know like what's going on because obviously gold is outperforming a
lot of assets it's outperformed and bitcoin recently same thing with silver um of course
recently there have been sorry i was getting a call uh there's a bit of a crash, especially like silver.
It hasn't like really fully recovered from the crash.
But a lot of people think it's like a buying opportunity.
But what's going on with this precious metals mania, in your guys' opinion?
I'll jump in.
I think that, you know, one of the things that, you know, as the technology is advanced, there's a lot of people that are on the sideline kind of a little fearful of, you know, the newest, latest and greatest.
And I think gold and silver is precious metals in general. They've always been universal. Their value is universal. And, you know, all of a sudden, you know, their access was always kind of held for the elite. And so now there's a democratization
of access to precious metals. And I think there's an allure to that. There's a fascination with that.
And I think the comfort level for those that might not be savvy, DeFi investors becomes an on-ramp to kind
of dip your toe into the DeFi waters. And I think that that drove a lot of interest and speculation,
and it kind of happened so quickly and overnight that, you know, there's bound to be, you know,
an adjustment. But I still think that, you know, the value, and I happen to agree
that Bitcoin is one of the most exciting asset classes that's ever been created. But one of the
oldest is gold. So the idea is that you have this incredibly new married to this incredibly old,
and all can kind of get their arms around it. Whereas, you know, I've definitely been in a position where I've had to explain Bitcoin to many people in my family and friends because they just can't get over some of the hurdles, the psychological hurdles, if you will, of traditional thought.
So when you talk about gold, especially, you know, we focus on in situ gold, although we do all, you know, refined gold and
everything. But the reality is that, you know, I think the story that resonates with gold is that
to get gold out of the ground, you spend a tremendous amount of money and you also do
incredible damage to the earth. And, you know, so the reality is that if there can be
a digital pathway to unlock the value of that gold, because, you know,
you know, it's a marketing phrase, but we use it. It's like the most incredible vault ever created
was earth. You know, if we can get a really good estimate of that gold that's underground,
let's just leave it in that vault and then let's just let the value benefit the market. And so
that's kind of an easy one for people to get their arms around.
You try to tell that story from just a traditional Bitcoin level. And I think there's a lot of people
that just can't grasp. Yeah. I like the narrative there. I have to say that's a cool narrative. I
think someone else is going to jump in, please. Real quick, just to make sure I saw that Ken was
muted. Did something, did someone accidentally sure, I saw that Ken was muted.
Did someone accidentally click?
Did he mute himself, or are you there?
Ken, did you get to finish?
I'll never mute myself.
In fact, you guys might mute me,
but I'll never mute myself.
No, no, I don't know what happened.
It was just the end.
I was just kind of summing it up.
Okay, perfect.
Matt was kicking me under the table,
the virtual table,
so I wanted to stop talking anyway, so it's all good.
I've always got my finger on the mute everyone button.
That's sensible.
Yeah, from our perspective, like, so we've been working with Ion for years,
and we love them.
They're great clients. And then recently we worked with Rack.io to support Stablecoin,
which is backed by a basket of precious metals,
including ION's digitized securities, tokenized securities, legitimate on-balance sheet securities.
And we've seen the stablecoin do tremendously well in a very short period of time,
and there is an appetite.
And gold has always been an inflation hedge.
It always has.
It's been the go-to when you think that there is a seismic event occurring. And that hasn't
changed. And I'm 56 and the first job I ever did was Fitch as a rating analyst. And so I've been
staring at these markets for a very long time.
And that concept hasn't changed. What is alarming is just the sheer volume that we're seeing of
capital going to stable precious metal assets. And when I first met with ION, I first met with the CEO, and I first met with RAC,
I mean, there's a consistent theme, and there's a consistent theme. And despite my accent,
I'm actually a US citizen. And there's a consistent theme amongst my neighbors,
is that the US dollar is being devalued deliberately and rapidly and that we still haven't recovered from 2008.
What we're seeing is a wave coming through into precious metals that should have come through a long time ago.
But some may say, some have alluded to the prices being artificially constrained in precious metals and that we've still got a long way to go
until we get to a true balance, a true hedge in how fast the US dollar is being devalued.
Now, I'm not an economist. I can't tell you if that's true or not. It certainly feels that way.
If it wasn't for gas prices, it's pretty stable. Everything else in my life has gone through the roof in terms of costs.
Overseas, I've read this morning that the recent shorting of the commodities market was just to save the bond market.
Again, I don't know if these are true but it certainly feels like the wave of
devaluation and money printing is finally coming through and finally hitting us and um i i don't
know if you guys think that but but i find it interesting that even even our market in crypto we we took the first hit really for the flight flight to precious metals
it is very interesting and uh i agree there's a lot of
analysts that i follow that believe that a lot of money has flowed out of crypto and to
a lot of money has flowed out of crypto into not only AI, but also metals.
So it's interesting to see this.
I believe we're actually, I made a video recently about thinking that the capital is going to
start slowly flowing back into crypto. Another thing I think is so interesting
about this whole gold and silver thing is that something I learned more recently is that there's
a paper price. I guess I've known this, but it hit me more profoundly recently where like there's a paper price so there's like
you see you know silver at x dollar amount in the united states it's also at a different dollar
amount in in asia and uh all but the thing is it's like you can't buy silver as an example very easily um if you wanted to buy like physical silver at uh you know
different um mints or whatever like pretty much all the silver like physical silver at a lot of
these places is either sold out or like if you can buy it you you'll get it like in months so
there's a lot of people saying that there's also like a massive shortage
and that uh there's the reason that there's this mania is because like everyone's kind of
gobbled up all the the silver that a lot of silver that's like in the um vaults isn't really even enough to cover the paper speculation
that there's these big companies that are coming in and you know buying contracts you know for
for metals because they need it for their products you know whether that's like someone like Elon and Tesla or whoever. Now, I think all
this is kind of driving this mania, but yeah, is anyone else have any thoughts on what's driving
this mania? Yeah, I'll jump in here. No, I definitely echo all the same takes and different things that have been said so far.
Really, when we look at it over here at Rift, we didn't really know too much about what was going on with the precious metals.
Oh, and I think someone's echoey. too much about what was going on with the precious metals.
Oh, and I think someone's echoing.
Is that me?
Oh, okay.
All right.
Yeah.
So I was just hearing an echo there.
But so about seven months ago, we got introduced to Global Gold, which is our main partner for putting gold on chain and working with U.S. gold treasuries.
And the biggest issue that they were having, and, you know, it's very much, you know, comes to what's happening with like the, you know, the paper side of the precious metals.
And then obviously, you know, the supply and demand and supply shock that's happening.
And obviously, you know, the supply and demand and supply shock that's happening.
And they were telling us about all of the different ways that, you know, you can move gold, you can move silver, and how it's very cumbersome, right?
Especially if you're going to move vast quantities.
And so, you know, blockchain is definitely what can really help to, you know, make it so that it can travel, you know, 24-7.
You can take gold from a treasury that's in Ukraine and put it into, you know, a treasury in the United States like instantly, right?
So those are the types of rails and systems that we've been developing over the last seven months.
systems that we've been developing over the last seven months. Now, as we were diving into,
you know, what makes gold and silver valuable, and, you know, we've already gone through,
you know, some of the big reasons is that, you know, because, I mean, it's been a store of value,
you know, since pretty much the dawn of time, right? Since we picked up some gold and said, hey, we're going to put this together on
some type of ornament. And you know me, I don't stay on the surface too long, but there's all
kinds of different reasons why gold is valuable. It's not just the financial side of things. It's also the
energetic properties of gold, the way that it conducts energy, the way that it helps with...
There's all kinds of different medical science around gold and silver and different things like
that and different precious metals and gems and all that. But I think that at the end of the day,
what's happening right now is that we are seeing this massive global shift. And we are in the
middle of all of the bad fiscal policies, all of the different decisions that were made decades ago
are coming to a head right now. And so that's why the systems are actually breaking.
And we are blessed to be here because the solution to this, the solution to this breaking is the breaking away from the trade-fi systems, you know, the traditional finance systems and moving into, you know, more of these decentralized systems.
You know, Bitcoin is, in my opinion, the best financial asset that has been ever created.
asset that has been ever created. And then when you take it up to programmable money
and all the different aspects of what you can do with that, we still haven't fully even scratched
the surface of what's possible there. I think that we've done a lot of experiments since Bitcoin
has come out, EVM, all the different blockchains, all these different innovations with DeFi.
But we still are not at the full capacity of what we can do and bringing all of these, bringing that bridge between the real assets and the digital assets and making this marriage completely, making it complete.
And so that's actually a big thing that we focus on here at Rift is how do we combine assets?
How do we make baskets of assets? And how do we reinforce those values?
And how do we make it not just financial
but cultural and how do we give those tools to anyone to use and so um but i think that we're
on the precipice of the biggest shift in humanity this great chasm of what it looks like for work, what it looks like
for value, what it looks like for your finances. And all this is being driven by AI and robotics
and the traditional finance systems that are breaking because we have more access to the
black box now, right? We we can see into the black box,
like all of these traditional finance companies for, for decades have been able to keep that away
from, you know, the regular man. They, they didn't get to see it. Right. It's like, it's like
lawyer speak, right? Like, um, like lawyers have a specific language so that they make it seem like they're more smart, more intelligent.
Yeah, the legalese. Yes, exactly. The legalese.
You know, it's interesting. I got to be a rehabilitation advisor for the Ukrainian military back in 2019.
And one thing that surprised me, well, I'm sure most of you know that there's massive amounts of corruption that's there, right?
And it's systemic.
It's from the time that you're born all the way.
It's really sad.
And I got to see it at all levels of the society.
But you do have amazing people that are trying to fight back against it, just like in any place that has massive amounts of corruption.
But one thing that was surprising to me was that in their legalese, they actually have a completely separate language, a completely separate language for legalese.
a completely separate language for legalese.
So you actually can't understand anything
unless you've gone specifically to school
to become a lawyer in Ukraine
and learn that specific language.
So even the common man has no idea
how to do anything legally.
You have to go through the lawyers.
And so that's another part of why
there's this bottleneck of corruption
that's happening in Ukraine at a massive level is because you have these gatekeepers that
you don't even know what they're speaking. Now, of course, with AI now, you could probably throw
that into ChatGPT and you could actually have it translate for you right i'm sure that i'm sure chat gpt or
other llms speak the legalese of ukraine now but um but we're we're opening up the pandora's boxes
across all of these different sectors all these different industries of um you know what is truth
what is really going on what is the real history or his story, right? History is his story. And so, you know, we're getting behind that curtain.
And it's an exciting time, though. It's an exciting time because we have so much opportunity to shift and change and innovate and move humanity forward, you know, and not be beholden to the 400 years of bad decisions that we've made, you know, and thinking what true value really is. And then of course, you know, getting off the gold standard and many other different things that we've done. And, you know, our forefathers, you know, they
felt like kicking the can down the road was going to be, you know, safe enough, you know,
maybe we were going to figure it out later in the future. And then, you know, of course, there's plenty of them that were just selfish enough to just
think about themselves for that point and period in time. We need to get back to thinking about
the future generations and what a decision that we make, especially on a societal scale or civilizational scale or, um, or, you know, a nation scale and
how that affects generations ahead for six or seven generations or 10 generations.
All right. I'm going to get off my soapbox. I'm going to, I'm going to start just going off guys,
but it's good. Yeah. It was, it's, it's a good, uh speech, though, because I fully agree. So I respect everyone that's in this space building these technologies that will help open the door to everyone to participate in things that TradFi only had access to previously for the most part
or systems that were way too complex to navigate, you know,
or maybe too much of a gray area because people didn't understand the legal side of it.
And I hear you on that part too because it's crazy that the whole legal system and all this stuff is,
it is very hard to understand. Yeah. Like governments expect everyone to just understand
it. Like they literally say you should know, you know, it's like, well, there's some of it, there's no um there's no clarity or or it's just too confusing and there's like a thousand
page report so here on all that i agree and i think that all of these things that have
that you've been describing are part of why there's distrust in governments and leaders of this world. And I actually think
that this is one of the factors that's creating a mania in Bitcoin over the previous decade
and into this decade and why gold and silver are actually also moving.
Now, there's also a part of me that just looks at history and realizes that metals throughout history have kind of been priced by the banks.
And so I, especially with this parabolic move in the metals markets, I highly, it's suspicious to me because, you know,
these are assets that are truly going parabolic.
And they're generally, you know, more stable, like slowly growing or slowly declining.
But over the last, you know, months, it's been a parabolic run.
And so I wonder, is this liquidity
that's being moved into the mania,
which I think there's a good narrative
for why it's all going up.
I do believe that people are giving up on the government
or looking to innovate.
There's a lot of utility behind these metals, but I also wonder how much of this move
is actually manipulation as well
up to the upside and the downside,
you know, recently.
I think that this week of all the weeks,
the definition of scarcity
is being discussed as it applies to, you know,
Bitcoin, as it applies to gold, silver, et cetera. And I think that, you know, I read an incredible
article and I think some of the articles that are being written these last two weeks about Bitcoin
and the drop are fascinating because they're looking at, you know, scarcity as part of the
algorithmic structure. And when you start hypothecating and putting it into, you know,
ETFs and you put it into all the different variants, you know, financial instruments,
you're actually creating an abundance. And so the scarcity model that drove the supply and demand are impacted. So
then when you go to something that's a real world asset, and scarcity can be measured,
and scarcity is physical, there's something there as well. And it doesn't, it doesn't,
you guys were talking about incredibly important and incredibly deep
interpretations. And here, I'm going to come back to the simplicity of assets. And I think
that there's an interesting relationship there that's playing into the market. And I'm not smart
enough to understand it completely, but I do think that when you read the articles and different
perspectives about the drop, I think that this word scarcity starts to become a really important
part of that. Hey, so my headset got really weird for a second and started going robot,
but I heard most of that.
Are you saying that you think that physical commodities are somehow either more scarce
or more auditable, or we know how much there is,
or there's less paper trading or derivative assets or rehypeplication
than Bitcoin? I think that, yes, I'm saying that, but I'm saying it very tentatively because I can
already hear your question and somehow I'm going to get arrows in my back for saying it. I was just
sharing the fascination that I had as I read the articles. But, you know, one of the things is, you know, as we go through audits of the gold assets
as a part of our strategy, there is very definitive representation of the existence or non-existence
of those real world assets, in this case, gold.
And I think that, you know, obviously, you know, there was this 21 million, you know, Bitcoin ceiling set to create the idea of scarcity and the premise of the article that i read and i found it fascinating because it does make sense that mathematically you can change the very nature
of what was kind of a perfect asset class and and turn it into something that you know maybe
um changing the nature of it as far as its investment math i, you could trick people into buying fake. I can sell you a piece of paper that says, I owe you one ounce of gold. And if you buy that and you don't know that I can really cover that or that I have the gold or that it'll be there in 10 years, well then, shame on you for falling for buying a paper fake version of an asset.
You said you use the word mathematically I think is a key here.
You cannot mathematically change the amount of Bitcoin in existence.
You can sell something else that looks like Bitcoin or has Bitcoin in its name,
but that is not at all the same thing.
Now, if enough people, let's say to your point, if call it, imagine if 90% of all Bitcoin being
traded was ETFs, could you have serious effects on the market? Could you create paper versions that are like, I mean, look at what the US did. It's a
great example that happened with gold. The US did exactly what I just said. They told the whole
world at Bretton Woods, hey, look, we helped win the war. We're badass. You can trust us.
Everybody put their gold here, you know, so Hitler couldn't take it.
You guys all trust us.
We'll peg, you know, your dollars to ours and we'll peg ours to gold.
And then in 71 or 72 or whatever, 71, whatever, Nixon said, you know, he's taken us, you know, he's temporarily closing the gold window and temporary meant forever.
So they did exactly that. They rugged everyone, right? And the reason people suspected was from
the Vietnam War, they were printing too much dollars to fund the war and they didn't have
enough gold to back it. So France came with
their military ship and asked for it. And then we gave it to them and then England came and we said,
nah, we're not giving it to you. But anyways, so rehypothecation is a thing. Paper, gold,
and other assets are a thing. But now moving to the next point, well, it doesn't change the definition
of the base asset, right? There's only so much gold in the world. There's only so much
Bitcoin in the world. Now, the beauty with Bitcoin versus gold is Bitcoin is much easier audited
than gold. Gold is near impossible. You could argue it's impossible to fully audit
how much gold there is in the world, right? You don't know how much gold someone is
keeping under their bed. You don't know how much gold the US really has. Is there anything in Fort
Knox? Have we used it? We have no idea. Is China mining more than they say? Are they mining less
than they say? Depending on how they're trying to posture at the moment,
we have no idea how much gold there really is.
The number could be off by an order of magnitude.
We really don't know.
And a lot of people think some of these precious metals are off by two orders of magnitude,
a hundred times difference or 20 times difference, 10 times.
I'm just like throwing numbers out there that you hear randomly.
I'm not saying that's true.
With that being said, now look at Bitcoin.
What can you do?
You can literally just audit the fucking blockchain.
Anyone can do it with a smartphone.
Any child around the world can audit the Bitcoin blockchain and know exactly how much Bitcoin
there is at any moment. And not only that, exactly how much Bitcoin there will be in 10 years, in 100 years, and in 120 when it stops,
when no more Bitcoin comes out. Now, that doesn't mean that paper Bitcoin is not a concern. I'm not
saying it's not a concern, but compared to gold and silver, it is a hundred times more auditable and harder
to create a paper form on top of. I mean, exactly. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to say, technically these DATs, you know, are kind of like a form of paper
Bitcoin, right? Sure. Yeah. And in fact, that's where I was going to make the point. Listen,
I totally agree with you.
I think the point is if you rehypothecate or multihypothecate a single Bitcoin, it's
the same problem that you just defined and a very real problem when it comes to precious
metals and I give you that.
And I think that the blockchain has created incredibly powerful ways for us to account for the individual units, whether it be a Bitcoin or an ounce of gold.
If you have a wrapper location, a vault that is monitored and audited, and there is a certain amount of gold in it or a certain amount of Bitcoin in it, and you're then hypothecating only off of that pool, then that is a very effective system.
It's also a very intelligent use of blockchain, as we all know.
So I think we're in agreement.
And listen, I'm the first.
I'm in the gold space, and there's as much hacksterism and scammers in the gold,
if not more, than anywhere that I've ever seen in my entire life.
But the idea is, theoretically, when you tie a single ounce
that can be audited and proved to a digital representation of that, all of the things that
you love about Bitcoin, as far as the opening up and the democratization of access to something
that used to be held by legal constraint and banking constraint and governmental constraint
is now made available to the, you know, to the world and to the populations that have
never had access to it before.
So I think that there is something pretty exciting about that.
I wasn't, believe me, I'm not anti-Bitcoin.
That's not what I'm saying.
I was just using it as the discussions that have taken place over the last couple of weeks,
I think are very fascinating because, you know know we're in a moment and that moment's being
explained in a way that I think makes us expand our thought process that's all I'm saying can I
can I just expand on this really because it goes to our core hypothesis so I have seen this on every asset class. And I remember back in Lloyds of London, when it imploded because you had brokers buying
their own assets.
Then I remember the mortgage-backed securities in 2008.
I had my own business back then.
Watched the whole world burn because they were packaging up bad assets with good assets.
And then they had just enough AAA assets to price
as a AAA when it should have been priced as a BB. And so there wasn't the premium to manage the
flow through of the debt. So we're seeing this in every asset class. And it's not so much that
Bitcoin isn't audited. It's the fact that we're seeing
pools of Bitcoin. How many times do we really know that people have used that for collateral?
That's the thing. And we see it with gold. We see it with silver. We see it with every single
asset class. We see it when you buy a house. has debt been put on that house that you don't know about? And thank goodness we have databases to prove that.
Some of the asset classes that I'm seeing getting tokenized, there is no database.
The country they're coming from has no database that can tell me if there's any liens put on that.
So part of the due diligence that we have to do is to make sure that there is a chain of custody and it's absolutely free and clear and fully owned and controlled.
And that's not easy.
We've spent a long time with Dow structures saying that the asset is owned by the Dow, but we've got nothing before that. So we've been trying to
build up historical audit trails to show that the gold is conflict-free or the minerals are
conflict-free, that they're LBMA, they're in a bonded warehouse, and these types of things.
It creates incredible complexity, and every single asset class is different.
It creates incredible complexity and every single asset class is different.
So I fully agree with I think this conversation is great.
I think Bitcoin is utterly unique as an asset class because of what you what you can see, what you can do with it, utility, the scarcity.
I still think we we still have to be really careful in how we how we think about creating financial instruments off the back of it, which are happening.
I've seen treasury vaults of gold and gold equivalent where effectively they've got calls and they're pricing calls full value and they're trying to sell tokens on calls at full value.
Things that you can't do in the real world, I'm seeing
done in our world. We've just got to be super careful.
Yeah, I think that makes total sense. We do have to be careful. However, I don't think,
I think that, like Jordan was mentioning from Rift, opening pandora's box and and uh the clarity that's
being written for a lot of these kind of assets and the the new types of offerings
or paper versions or ways to speculate are now more readily available and there's really nothing
we can do about that unless, you know,
I guess the only other,
the only thing we could do is probably like try to vote against it or
something. But, but I, I don't really think that, you know, these,
these other alternatives to the real asset are going away. The,
and there's benefits to having a lot of these like paper assets.
There's benefits to other ways to speculate on Bitcoin and bring money into the ecosystem or more people able to participate that might not be able to legally or whatever.
So there's pros and cons. I think that at the end of the day, though, when you look at like Bitcoin
and Litecoin, as Michael Saylor says that Bitcoin is the hardest money. I say Litecoin is also you know the hardest money that the world's ever seen um bitcoin 21 million
uh ever that will be print uh minted and um and uh litecoin 84 million but uh
that what when you come to to like the base of this conversation holding the physical asset is is probably the best the
thing that's different about uh you know bitcoin and litecoin is i think like what rock was saying
that it's easy to audit uh you can um you know you can move it very easily you don't have to
worry about like if you own the physical asset You don't have to worry about like, if you own the physical asset, you don't have to worry about, uh, um,
you know, like the, the cost, uh, you know, of, of moving it. Uh,
and then there's, there's also like with the new technologies that are coming
out, which will also probably, uh, lend itself to gold and silver. Um,
and, and a lot of these other, these other metals is like ZK technology,
you know, where you can prove that you own an asset and it'll make the whole experience of
interacting with smart contracts better, et cetera. And, you know, I think that this is an
exciting time because this is all unfolding for all these these assets um but uh but i'm still more of a if rock says he's a bitcoin maximalist i'm more of
like a litecoin maximalist uh so the one thing that that we do and when i say we you know um
the guys who work with iron and rack etc is we make sure it's on a balance sheet.
We've got an entire financial system
that's built around verification of assets,
and it's marvelous.
So we need to see the asset on a balance sheet
before we tokenize it.
We've got our own.
And I know that as a software provider,
we shouldn't really be taking that kind of approach because we're here to provide software, we're here to tokenize assets, we're here to bridge into real world systems.
But we don't want that reputational hit and we don't want to ever work with anything that's unethical.
And so we always say, is it on a balance sheet?
Show us where it's on a balance sheet
and we'll take a good look at it ourselves.
And that's where we start
because if they've got a decent audit firm
and they've got a decent third-party valuation experts,
et cetera, like oil reserves is a good one,
oil reserves, there's really clear rules
around how they're accounted for.
Gold, gold's really, really tricky
because there's lots of different rules around gold
and how it can be valued
and how, you know, at what point it can be booked
and the kind of securities wrappers
that you should use for commodities
versus dore bars versus in production
and these types of
things. It's asset class by asset class. I think so what we created actually, and I hope you don't
mind me doing a plug, but what we created, which is open and please come and talk to us about it,
is the Real World Asset Federation. And the idea is to say, we're creating some standards
on what is a real world asset that people can trust. And it's just an open group where we've
got each other's backs, where we're watching each other's assets that we're bringing on.
We work with some of the biggest risk guys in the market. We've got a team of... Assets or assets?
Assets.
Sorry, my accent.
As an asset class is like you're bringing gold on.
You're bringing property on.
You're bringing all these different types of asset classes on.
So we formed a federation that is just a group of companies
that have come together and have gone, we need to create
some boundaries about what is an asset and what we will accept and what we will work
with.
So, you know, we want to create some confidence in what we're tokenizing and what we're putting
on chain.
And we want people to feel comfortable that when they buy
a token that says this is backed by gold, appreciate the proof of reserve that Chainlink does is an
amazing product, but that's just a number. Now, the Genius Act forces you to have that number
updated on a monthly basis. But what about gold outside of the US or outside of the Mika or outside of Dubai or the UAE.
So we're creating some standards because you need to know that that gold hasn't been re-hypothecated,
is fair valued based on what it is, the level of purity, how it's stored, how it's custodied,
these types of things so if
anyone here is interested in like joining i do want to oh sorry sorry matt you're trying to finish
that no it's just saying please please come and talk to us we would love we would love to have
broader conversations and there's some great guys on this federation that um i'll just say this
i would love to join that uh foundation because when we've been working with global gold and
especially you know we're working with the u.s gold treasuries and specifically uh wyoming is is
one of the main ones and wyoming um a big part of the system that we built for Global Gold and being able to
track the proof of reserve system, we had to build an entirely new proof of reserve system for
Wyoming Gold Reserve Treasury. And making sure that it wasn't just monthly, right? I mean, we're talking like, I'm not going to say the amount of time
just because we have some NDAs
and different things around what we built there.
But that is one of the most robust
proof of reserve systems for gold
pretty much on the planet
because that's what Global Gold wanted as
our partner and client, right?
That's awesome.
Yeah, making sure that we have that integrity, right?
So that's a big part of everything that we want to do.
We want to do everything with full integrity.
It's not like a full speculation on the rwa at
there's a lot of rwa uh prod products out there and tokenization protocols and everything like
that and they're kind of just taking anybody right taking any anybody at their word you know that
this is this for this value they're not they're not really going through the full due diligence of all the legal side of
things, all of the proof that that value is there, ledgers, everything, right? And working
specifically, and that's actually one of the biggest hurdles to tokenizing all the different RWAs. Just like you said, Matt,
everything has a specific avenue of approach that you have to go down.
You can't just say that,
okay, we built this for gold.
Now it can apply to silver exactly the same.
Yeah, we should chat.
Julia from Instrux.
He has posted the link to the
Real World Asset Federation in the
chat. So please
like, and really for
anyone, come join the conversation.
Matt, can we put that in the Jumbotron
up above? You can put it wherever
you like, my friend.
I'm just seeing if
you could put it.
I just pinned it.
Oh, you did?
Okay.
Yeah, I want to get someone to.
So we could.
So anyone here in the audience or on the panel, please go ahead and take a look.
It usually takes a couple seconds for it to show up in the Jumbotron up above the space here.
But please go ahead and
take a look at that that that's i mean please like we we welcome those conversations and it starts
with is it on a balance sheet and you're absolutely right the issue um with a lot of verification is
the timeliness now we need this on block time so um we create a multi-signing event on the proof of reserve. It's near live,
connected to source systems. Sounds like we've got the same kind of view. Gold, silver, oil,
property. I mean, ultimately, I'd love to see a day where I walk into a coffee shop
that is actually firstly treats its staff with respect. So, so not some of the big
brands that we see now, but anyway, I walk into a coffee shop. I take my car. I tokenize my car.
I mint a stable coin. I buy my coffee. That that's what we got to get to. And to, to do that,
you know, and I think we're not far away from that. I think we're really, really close.
And I think we're not far away from that.
I think we're really, really close.
This is a really exciting conversation.
I do want to talk about tokenization, actually, because I don't know how much time you guys have left.
We've already kind of gone through the first hour.
We had some great discussions about gold versus Bitcoin and also starting everything off what is what has driven the speculation and the mania behind metals uh so please go ahead and
listen to the recording guys if if uh you you missed the beginning with with all of these uh
uh super brains here today but i i do want to start i didn't see Jack has his hand up. That's what I was going to say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was actually going to say before we jump into that,
I wanted to, because I saw Jack had his hand up, I wanted to, but what, did you just want to say something before, Jack?
Yeah.
So, I mean, especially on the balance sheet side of things,
remember just after FTX, all of the exchanges posted their balance sheets and proof of reserves and stuff.
And someone went ahead and just added them all up.
And the Bitcoin reserves added up to more than 21 million between all the centralized exchanges.
Yeah, so one of the requirements is actually a real audit firm. So we have a list of approved
audit firms that we have vetted, that we know, they know how to work with digital assets.
Not every audit firm has that capability. I spent half my life with PricewaterhouseCoopers and Ernst & Young, two of the best firms, honestly amazing.
Both of them have really solid departments on how to audit digital assets and have spent a lot of money.
And I've got to say, I've always thought Ernst & Young were the leaders in digital assets. Now, you know, Harris Trotter, amazing. Grant Thornton, solid. Some really good
folks have come out recently. So I think we're getting better at that, but that is terrifying,
isn't it? If we can't trust the balance sheet, we're kind of in trouble. I've also noted that
Standard & Poor's are now doing credit ratings on digital assets, which I think is really neat.
pools are now doing credit ratings on digital assets, which I think is really neat as someone
now. But I know 2008, like they got it wrong. They got it massively wrong. But as someone who
used to be a credit rating analyst, it's another view, right, on the solvency of the underlying
assets that make up the balance sheet. And my final point, just one thing specifically on gold,
which is really interesting,
is there are a lot of listed companies
who have listed their treasuries in a market somewhere,
a lot in Canada.
Something to be wary of is whether the shareholders
already own those assets.
So when they're on a balance sheet, who actually owns that balance sheet? And what is the legal structure for them to be able to
lend those assets out? And how is that organized? And we've seen some interesting things. This is
what I mean by the assets being lent multiple times. And whether or not there's sufficient recoverable value or
underlying assets to support what we're seeing in the tokenized world.
Yeah, it's really good points. And in just a second before or after we, because like, I'm sure Jack has, he wants to comment on some of the things that have been discussed here.
But after that, I'd like to dive deep and pick your guys' brains on tokenization.
Like, what are we missing?
What do people need to know about it?
But we'll come back to that.
Also response to Darren, you know, that's really why really why i i say like don't don't use centralized
exchanges unless you like absolutely have to like i don't know you're trying to off board some
crypto you know to pay some bills or something like uh whatever it is like not
not your keys not your crypto i don't trust the sexes personally but you know
hello okay yeah okay that's like no, I'm getting rugs.
He'd been monologuing for too long.
I figured I'd get him.
I guess I'll just take that as my cue to start that until he comes back.
Hey, everybody.
My name's Jack.
I'm Chief Launch Officer at Lunar Digital Assets and also leading BD over at Stratex.
I have some involvement with the metal industry,
having been an investor in the space for over a decade.
And I just wanted to kind of frame the discussion around
chain of custody that a few of the other speakers were talking about.
And, Rock, I heard you mention that, you know,
we can't do that with Bitcoin.
I just wanted to kind of like lay out a timeline of chain of custody for gold and then see if that
rings true for any any of the recent experiences with bitcoin so you know going back thousands of
years gold was money and also currency so you could physically take gold pieces and take them to
and also currency so you could physically take gold pieces and take them to establishments and
swap them for goods and services and then people realized that you know carrying around coins and
such was dangerous and cumbersome and so a better way to operate was claim checks so you had gold
vaults and goldsmiths would vault metal on behalf of you and you get the claim check
which you could then trade with merchants in the market um as that kind of evolved into professional
gold storage businesses you ended up with derivative currencies that were tied to the
value of gold hence you know you've got fiat currency that was tied to gold and then eventually
you had uh with nixon closing the gold window and suspending the convertibility of gold,
you ended up with de-pegged fiat currencies, which were freely trading and not tied in any way to the value of gold.
Now, if we look at BTC, we originally had, when BTC came onto the scene in 2009 and a few years after,
we had freely trading btc
you could take your bitcoin your digital gold and you could trade it in the marketplace for goods
and services mostly illicit but still goods and services and you trade that directly and then
over time people realized that that experience sort of sucked. And so digital asset exchanges began to pop up, starting with Mt. Gox.
And then eventually, peer-to-peer digital exchanges like local bitcoins.
And eventually, progressing to the kind of centralized exchange market that we have today.
And then a little later, people realized that, well, it's not really that easy to interact with these centralized exchanges.
So instead, you could, you know, utilize, instead of utilizing the assets directly,
you could either trade, make your trades on the exchanges, or you could use an exchange-traded fund.
And then you could operate, you know, through your pension or any other investment vehicles that were ring-fenced from digital assets.
I think there's a lot of allegories there that you could draw to the evolution of the securitization of the gold markets and the way that B2C has evolved.
I mean, obviously, there's some differences.
But if you consider that the timeline for both was dramatically different.
So the gold situation evolved over thousands of years, eventually resulting in, you know, complex futures and derivative trading products based on gold that we have today.
And, you know, Bitcoin has kind of hyperscaled through that gauntlet of securitization and now you know within a very
short period of time we've got like triple leverage micro strategy you know and similar
things like that and i think while you say that it you know you can audit bitcoin at any one time
which is of course true but when you have very lax standards around proof of reserves so what
darren alluded to earlier where the centralized exchanges were sharing singular reserve funds but
they were presenting them to the consumer as if they were individualized reserve funds for their
exchanges and you could track that on chain at the time because as the different exchanges were doing
the proof of reserves audit you could see the movements chain at the time because as the different exchanges were doing the proof of reserves audit,
you could see the movements of the digital assets from one treasury to another, which was a little bit ridiculous, to be honest.
And one could make the argument that if you're using small, low-tier, unregulated offshore centralized exchanges,
then you are kind of asking for trouble but if you think about it from a step like you know we always
talk about in this industry scaling to the next billion users and the next billion users they're
not cypherpunks they're not people that are you know in any way technical they're people that are
going to invest in so much as they do invest, they're going to be people that invest simply by allocating on a monthly basis to indexes.
And I think this is where the majority of people's exposure to Bitcoin on the planet
will come from products like IBIT, BlackRock's Bitcoin ETF, and they'll allocate through
ETF and they'll allocate through passive funds on a monthly basis through the pension contributions.
passive funds on a monthly basis through the pension contributions.
And so I think it's just important that we remember that although the way Bitcoin's originally
designed, it's not easy to, you know, fake and rehypothecate. When you get now three,
four layers deep of derivative products held by third parties
with potentially multiple claims on the same underlying asset,
it actually becomes very easy to rehypothecate.
And as we've seen over the past few years, it has been rehypothecated.
And so I think, you know, if you're holding Bitcoin on a ledger
that you possess, then that's not rehypothecatable because you have it
in the same way that a gold piece that you put in your cupboard is not rehypothocatable because you have it in the same way that a gold piece
that you put in your cupboard
is not rehypothocatable
but when you think about
the majority of people's exposure to Bitcoin
it's never going to be in that fashion
just in the same way that in the metals industry
most people own ETFs
through their pension or whatever
or through some small allocation in their portfolio
they don't own a cupboard full of gold and silver.
There's only a small segment of the market that does.
So, yeah.
So, I mean, yeah, I think you touched on it,
but the first and primary argument is not your keys, not your coins.
Everyone should know that.
It's the first rule you should learn.
If you are holding your Bitcoin on an exchange, either you are sophisticated and using it as
collateral and you're a trader and you're willing to take the risk, or you're fucking retarded.
For the most part, it's retarded. Don't hold your Bitcoin on an exchange. Don't know why anyone ever
would. If you're holding your Bitcoin in an ETF, unless there's no other way. Don't hold your Bitcoin on an exchange. Don't know why anyone ever would.
If you're holding your Bitcoin in an ETF, unless there's no other way for you to hold your Bitcoin,
like in your retirement fund or something, which I don't think is the case. There's plenty of, I think, self-directed retirement funds where you can hold the Bitcoin yourself.
yourself, I'm pretty damn sure of this.
I'm pretty damn sure of this. I think I trust capital.
I think I trust capital.
Yeah, there's SIPs, right?
But I'll just direct you to figures on the ratio of SIPs to passive funds.
They're really small by comparison.
And I'm not saying that the majority of Bitcoin today is held by individuals in
Ibit, for example, but I'm saying that over the course of time, the industry will
trend towards that passive flow model that every other industry has.
That's my main point.
So right now, the amount of Bitcoin not held, I think you're probably right.
I mean, that has been the, well, actually, it has not been the trend completely as well.
Okay, so let me, there's a few different things happening here. One is a lot more people used to hold their money,
their Bitcoin on centralized exchanges. That number has continuously gone down over time,
both at the institutional level and the individual level. But that's not the same as what you're
saying, which is some of this Bitcoin will be held in passive
funds, retirement funds, et cetera. And those funds will grow over time. Now, will those funds
grow faster than self-custody? I don't know. So far, if you look at the centralized exchange for
self-custody, the story is not so simple. It actually has been less. We've moved in a better
direction. I don't know why. Maybe people are
just smart. Maybe they got burnt too many times. Maybe they saw Mt. Gox and all the other exchange
hacks and thefts and all these things. And we've been a good, smart community at just saying over
and over, not your keys, not your coins, over and over. If you haven't heard that a hundred times
by now, you're probably new to the industry um
but is it possible that we move in that direction i think yeah is it likely
it might be that we have more and more of these passive funds holding bitcoin but again bitcoin
is the most auditable asset on the planet it is way more auditable than gold or anything else it is not perfectly audible maybe
not perfect but it's 99 you know on the scale of zero to 100 of auditable it is the most audible
thing there is and nothing has ever been as auditable i i agree i agree but it's not as
simple as that so like let's say you've got a pension fund that's invested in a mixed
basket of, you know, securities for various reasons, like build a low risk. Some of that
basket contains some mixed price risk, right? Whatever it might be, you know, triple B mortgage,
but mortgage backed securities in 2008, or whatever the next version of that is a ai data center uh you know uh like you know kind of
vehicles that you know materialize into nothing let's say there's some misprived risk in that
basket and the fund has to liquidate it might be that the the like even if your asset that you think
is like golden and safe and totally fine and non-rehypothecated is in a fund
that does some dodgy stuff because it's mixed in with a bunch of other investments in a diversified
fund it's still possible that that could get uh you know taken away from you even if you think
that the custody is gold standard and it's on coinbase prime or you know whatever the top tier custody vehicle is for for bitcoin at the moment
because if there's some um you know situation where that fund comes under suspicion and the
assets are frozen and the legal process like is it again like if you're right in what you're saying
if you don't hold it you don't own it but my contention is the majority of people won't hold
it hold it and they won't own it and so my contention is the majority of people won't hold it, hold it, and they won't own it.
And so how do we move forward in a world where the primary method of holding Bitcoin isn't holding it at all?
It's a derivative.
And that's like the main thing.
And the answer to this question might be that if the core of the industry remains honest,
remains honest and there's a core of people that you know almost maniacally pursue self-custody
and auditable financials for all these institutions that's enough to keep the rest of the industry
honest because somebody will always be watching that might be the answer so that the you know
the active pursuit of the information by a small minority ends up keeping the rest of the industry honest in a way that hasn't happened with gold but um it's hard to imagine that long term
it might be that there's some ai components here ai is really really good at things like tracking
chain of custody with crypto assets um way better than a person is doesn't make any mistakes really
so that might be the answer.
It's just something to consider because I really think that the days of everybody holding digital
assets on a ledger are numbered really in terms of the number of people that will be holding these
assets. I think it's way more likely that the next wave of people will get exposure just through their normal investment
vehicles. You know, and to your point, and this is like a mark against Bitcoin, but I like to be
honest and fair and have a truly open dialogue. But if the fees on Bitcoin go up, which I hope they do over time, because that's how the miners
continue to secure the network. And if it truly becomes a settlement layer where
most people aren't doing their transactions on the main chain, it will become harder for people to
have self-custody on the L1. Now, do I think you'll have to have
custody on the L1 in the future? I don't think you will. I think we'll find a solution.
But let's say we don't, then yeah, people maybe, if you see that the fee to send Bitcoin is $50
or $100 and you're poor and you only have $50 of Bitcoin, you might not want
to hold it on the L1. You might want to hold it on your Robinhood or whatever, or an ETF or a
MicroStrategy share. Now, I do think, and the great thing about this is these are digital.
And so there's so much room for improvement, right? We can do a lot with this.
We can build L2s like Lightning Network or like Litecoin Virtual Machine for Litecoin or, you know, Rootstock.
There's all these things we can build and there's a hundred flavors being developed right now for Bitcoin.
So I think it won't be an issue, but it's possible it could be an issue.
Yeah. I actually think that I saw, I just got back. I was rugged guys. I got the tell end of
what Jack's saying here. I heard some really good points. only thing i i disagree with is that i i don't
think that uh the majority of the uh inflows would be coming through like traditional means
and the the reason why is because um my thesis is that a lot of the innovation in the decentralized finance is, and maybe I'm coming in and I'm
not understanding, but just to make this point, a lot of the innovation in decentralized finance
is actually getting a lot better. And I believe that people will actually uh custody their own assets but they'll they'll use
the the innovations and like ai and uh or more like unified layers like at the wallet level
and uh self-custody will be much easier, and they won't need centralized parties to onboard,
especially with the way AI is coming,
and the way that if you look at some of the big bets on this industry,
everyone's kind of building out the base layer of the agentic world,
building out the base layer of the agentic world.
And so where I think people should speculate and look to the future is more, you know, and pair it with these innovations in AI and unify everything and make the UI, the user interfaces a lot easier.
This is where the rest of the world is going to join us.
And then what you do, because like the beginning of the space, they were saying,
hey, throw some Litecoin in, you know, I'd love to hear the thesis. Well, the hardest money,
you know, Bitcoin and Litecoin, you know, I prefer Litecoin, it's faster, it's cheaper to
send, and it's got optional privacy. Well, if you take that and you marry it with the innovation that's currently happening around the world and you make it really easy to use, that marriage, I think, is where we'll get everyone else involved in crypto.
It's the next big thing.
So I'm building litvm and
that's that's exactly what we're doing you know we're essentially unleashing litecoin and pairing
it with web3 and so um then people can actually take their their litecoin and they can have
litecoin back real world assets maybe like using riftift, where you have some type of like Rift or D-Rift type index.
You have some Litecoin, you have some gold, and maybe you have some real estate, you know.
And it's all going to be easy to use because of the AI tools.
So my point is, when I look at the big bets and I look at how innovation is coming along, I actually think that all
these institutions are actually coming on chain.
And I'm speaking to many institutions that, you know, some of the very, very large institutions
and they want to build strategies on chain.
So I think it really is all coming on chain and that people will access, you know, whatever
offerings and strategies and even even tradify stuff on chain
in the future but um i i'd love to dive into i don't know if anyone wants to comment on that
but i'd love to dive into tokenization because that's somewhere honestly i think a lot of people
don't uh they know it's happening but they don't really understand like what they need to know you
know like they like there was like this big rwa boom there's a bit of cool cool off um and then
and then there's been so much innovation you know like uh around the structures and how you can do it and, uh,
not piss the government off.
And, and so I'd love for you guys, cause you guys are the experts here.
Maybe some people can like kind of jump in and like, maybe the question is, and actually
first, anyone would want to comment on what I said?
If not, I'll just jump right into tokenization.
Yeah. want to comment on what i said if not i'll just jump right into tokenization yeah i was just going to comment on what you said because um this is this is actually for the last two weeks the rift
team we've been going back and forth about uh you know all the different agentic things that are
happening especially on base because our our uh our tokens on base um we are Omni tokens, so we'll be available on 78 plus chains, you know, over time, but,
you know, layer zero. But the thing is, what we're seeing, right, is we're seeing,
we're seeing this ability to have agents that work for you, you know, agents and swarms,
they have their own wallet, they can interact with DeFi, they can, you know, go and make you money, they can go and put predictions,
you know, on poly market, right, they can do all kinds of different things. And so I think that,
I think you're absolutely right, Aztec, I think that what's going to happen is that,
you know, that the perfect marriage is AI AI and blockchain because AI is, and especially
these agents, right, that are being tasked with, you know, all these different lists
of things to do.
They want to find the path of least resistance, and they also want to find the way that they
can keep perpetual growth value and keep themselves online.
Right. And how do they do that? They do that by interacting with, you know, the financial rails
of the blockchain. And that's the easiest path for them to do it. It's definitely not the easiest
path for them to go, you know, trade on like a traditional, you know, traditional finance
terminal or something like that. Right. And so I think that
AI is really going to actually drive everyone to the blockchain, because it's just so much better,
so much more efficient. And eventually what's going to happen is you're going to have your agents,
and you're going to send them out on different tasks. And you're going to come back, you know,
maybe, maybe it's an hour later, and they're going to come back, you know, maybe, maybe it's an hour later and they're going to come back
and say, Hey, I made you this money.
You know, I made you this money in this DeFi pool.
I made you this money by combining these different assets.
I made you this money by creating this NFT collection that a bunch of other
agents collected. Right.
You know, we made, you know,
I made this hybrid NFT collection through drifts and, you know,
10,000 other agents collected it and here are the fees. Here you go.
Right. Like this,
this is the future that is coming and it's rapidly coming. Right.
It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's insane how fast the innovation is coming, you know, in that particular space right now.
And we, I mean, I guess I'll drop some alpha.
We're building very heavily on that side.
Like that's been a big, you know, pillar of kind of where we're pushing everything because we want it to be so easy for
anyone to use our technology, but also for all the agents to be able to use our technology
and benefit from it and then benefit the operators and the, you know, the humans that are behind
those agents as well. Can I jump in on that? Actually, a couple of points, if I may.
One, violently agree. Two, isn't this normal the point in the conversation where someone from
Bitcoin SV comes in and goes, you know, we did. So thank you. Thank you.
I appreciate the support there, dying.
But so if you think of, so what Bitcoin's, Bitcoin, what blockchain's really, really
good at is front office stuff.
Settlement.
Wonderful.
Really good at security.
Now, think of what a mid-office does in a bank.
And mid-office,
who are you? What can you do? What can you trade? Where can you trade? These types of questions.
It answers these types of questions. Now, someone earlier mentioned ZK Proofs. They're wonderful for
those types of things. So we created a platform a while back that we call the Enforcer. Think of it as a mid-office, but it's decentralized.
You can put cloud policies, you can write cloud policies to a wallet
and token gate access to Web 2 or Web 3 at a row and field level in a database anywhere.
Now, one of our clients, to your point, has just put the Enforcer on their AI agents.
So they are governing their AI agents through blockchain
across web two and web three using OPA, which I think is really cool because what we're seeing
with some of these agents, which is wonderful, is just the fact that unfettered, like swapping keys with each other. But we got to bring them into line a bit.
And without criticizing some software, there was some automation software that
I was doing an IT order on quite some time ago. And they were using segregation of duties to post an invoice, set up a supplier and pay an invoice.
But the admin who owned the automation actually had full access to everything, could do everything.
So we're having AIs that lie, that can deceive, that can hallucinate,
that can deceive, that can hallucinate,
communicating with macros that are running processes
about events they don't control.
And this is why I think, you know,
I love the fact that where we're going with this is amazing.
Pure data interoperability,
the God protocol, as the old white paper put it
but the governance of this is going to be all something we've got to put some focus on
oh man yeah that's a whole other can of worms governance um yeah i i agree so i i really think
and what a lot of what you guys are doing is so exciting because what you guys are building is the backbone, the engines behind the front end.
I think that's coming,
which the front end,
you know,
many argue is,
well,
it's at the wallet level.
Everyone's going to have these wallets with their identity.
And,
you know,
it may,
it's hopefully it's a fully custo,
you know,
it's a non-custodial and or you custody your own assets, and everything is unified.
There's privacy enabled where you're using ZK for your identity, so you're not having to share all this information.
There's that, or there know a lot of these same tools
with paired with ai and you're just interfacing with ai but but uh what's so exciting is that you
guys are building the the backbone and the engines and you're creating the um the you know the legal
structures or the uh um there's a word I'm looking for,
you know, but drawing a blank on it,
but you're basically building the backbone
of this agentic, that the agents will use,
you know, that they'll be able to make strategies
using real world assets, long-term, short-term.
So I'm excited to dive into tokenization.
And my question here for all of you guys is, where is tokenization today?
Because I think people have had pieces of the conversation here and there over the last
couple of years as real world assets or, you know, Larry Fink started talking about with the agents using this the
back uh bone and what are what are the significant kind of updates in the real world asset uh space
with uh tokenization and all that maybe you know there's no wrong answers again please just take
it away you guys could go any direction you
want. I'm just very interested. I want to learn as well. I think I'm going to answer the question
that's almost like a layup to Matt. But the idea is that tokenization itself, there's so many
different flavors of it and everybody thinks that they have it done and do have it done in many ways.
flavors of it. And everybody thinks that they have it done and do have it done in many ways.
You know, tokenization can be done in a variety of ways. I think, you know, one of the things
that was beaten into our head with our relationship with Instruxy is it's the pathway to liquidity
that really validates tokenization to begin with. So the tokenization has to be in a format that
then can, you know, go into the market and create liquidity.
And that liquidity path is the most challenging aspect of tokenization.
So you've got a lot of people that can tokenize many different asset classes,
but because they haven't really thought of it from an ecosystem standpoint,
they find themselves sitting in a treasury of tokens that only mean something to
themselves and don't mean anything to the marketplace. And so one of the challenges,
and I say this from experience because we had to overcome it, we've had tokenized gold,
in-situ gold in our treasury for many years. But the path to liquidity was the secret sauce that had to be solved. And when you
look at people like RAC and what they're doing and how they're approaching it, not only are they
creating a path to liquidity for IONAU, which is our digital security, through PMUSD, which is the
stablecoin, but then they're creating an infrastructure and an ecosystem that
allows all of the financial instrumentation that you'd expect in the TradFi world to start to
emerge around the stablecoins that they are bringing to the market that are then attached
to the tokenization. So I'm going to stop there because I couldn't have done a better layup
and I did it without a really cool accent.
So I'm going to give it to Matt
because now it's going to sound way smarter,
way more intelligent,
and I'm going to look at it
because I set him up.
That's what I'm doing.
I love it, Ken.
Hey, real quick, Matt,
also if you could just break down
what that app to liquidity means to you guys because I think I know what you mean.
But but I'm guessing there's probably a lot of people that might not really understand what that means.
So so when we first got into real world asset tokenization and we, you know, we first one was properties.
Right. And there was a ton of really bad stuff that came out
of, I'm going to say Florida of really bad real estate. And then we all got into Klima Dow and
then we all got into, then we like, and that was a wonderful platform. And I thought the math was
great. And then some of the, some of the assets they had were just fraudulent.
And that really collapsed the market.
And then you had really good attempts at creating these marketplaces for tokenized real-world assets.
But the problem is you had to go through an 800 grand legal wrapper
to get into using their tokens
so you could only trade with the marketplaces token
and those
markets died.
Then you ended up looking at volumes of like 30 million a day being traded.
So actually we saw a complete collapse in what we thought several years ago is the no
brainer use case for blockchain.
You know, putting aside Bitcoin, et cetera, but like real world asset value transfer.
So we really struggle because we could tokenize. I mean, like there's tons of vaults there.
There's happy to talk endlessly about how we do it and how you set them up and everyone's got
their own ideas, but there's some wonderful companies out there. Ondo came out with tokenized treasuries. They did a really good job,
4626, really nice structure. And they ended up their token being worth what,
like $15 billion against 700 million in tokenized treasuries. The thing with tokenized treasuries is
as a US citizen, I've got full access to them. They're really boring.
So who really would buy them?
Institutions.
So if you look at the amount of holders of tokenized treasuries, I think there's 1.7 billion, maybe more.
I know it's growing quite a bit.
If you look at who holds them, it's institutions.
It's the same financial product that they already have access to.
And it's the same guys holding them.
It's just being done in a more efficient and slightly cheaper way.
It's not really that interesting.
So who is going to buy real world assets?
Because 99.9% of it is you're looking for a bag holder
to fractionally own something.
Now with stable coins, you can create a synthetic. And if you've got a good DeFi
strategy, the custody remains with the asset holder. So long as they're willing to sign
an agreement that they're not going to rug their own stable coin, but you can bind the stable coin
to the asset. And this is what the RAC guys have done. So the custody of the asset remains
with the asset holder, but there is a lien on the asset. And so the stable coin is minted.
The asset owner now is able to deposit the stable coin into their curve pools. So I'm just looking at the rack curve pools today
and they're paying, you know, boosted curve.
I'm sorry, quick swap.
You should have a chat with them,
but they're paying boosted curve of 64% APY on gold
and they're having, you know, really wild trade.
So if you've got a gold token that's backed by gold,
I mean, I can facilitate introductions, Ken can.
But they created a looping strategy with Gearbox and several others
so you can earn on-chain yield.
Now, a lot of these off-chain securities also generate yield.
This is the kind of thing.
So if I'm selling a gold security into
bank for liquidity purposes, that's generating yield. It's generating a little bit of yield. Now
I've got on-chain DeFi off a float and that's also generating yield. Now I can create looping
strategies between on and off the off-chain worlds. Now we've done something a lot more exciting than tokenized treasuries with a very,
with a very standard APY.
So this is kind of what we're doing.
We're not looking for bag holders.
That's not the future.
The future, I mean, I've got to say the Genius Act is flipping amazing, but I'm really
disappointed it's only of US Treasuries. But the ability to take assets, make your own currency,
or put them into a currency that has utility and make accretive yield stunning. That's the future.
That and that's what that's what we mean by creating the pathway to liquidity.
And that didn't exist. Those marketplaces for real world assets are really quite dead because we all bought them in the early days.
And we were all left with bad property in Florida, bad carbon credits, stable coins that weren't stable,
algo coins that collapsed.
I think we probably all remember 2020 and 2021
with not so much fundus.
Yes, yeah, Luna, I think you might be
part of what you're referring to.
But yeah, I think that's very exciting
uh I've been saying this for a while that you know what real world assets need is um the ability to build great strategies but also you know another part I think that will go a long way to get
But also, you know, another part I think that will go a long way to get people excited is obviously pairing it with AI and gamification in a way to where it's just you make it a bit fun for the younger audiences.
Because once they can easily access, so they're joining blockchain because they're looking for opportunities.
um so they they're joining blockchain because they're looking for opportunities but I think
that that we as an industry are unfortunately steering people towards more degeneracy which
I'm not a I'm not against degeneracy you know like like it's bullied against it you know like
I personally am not a very degenerate person anymore I I've experimented with, you know, all of the stuff out there.
But the thing is, is like, as an industry, I think we should really be steering people towards,
you know, I guess, more secure strategies if possible. And one way you can do that is
with real world assets. And you can do that is with uh real world assets and you can do that
in a fun way you can pair that with ai um you know and you can even uh pair it with um hard money
like you know litecoin um and so i think that's the the future there uh jordan i don't know if
you have uh any thoughts because I saw you
Emoting
Just like where we're at
I basically felt like you were
Giving me a layup
For Rift and what we do
We're the ultimate
Protocol for doing UGC
User generated content
Around any digital asset
And so
Whether that's A human actor that's, uh, you know,
a human actor that's doing it or an agent that's doing it. And so, um, you know, that, that full,
like gamification side of having this ultimate like sandbox of, uh, you know, you can take a,
take a token here, take a piece of real estate here, take some gold here,
combine it, infuse it, and make, you know,
all kinds of different types of recipes and composabilities, you know,
around all these different assets and, and kind of, you know, what,
what that looks like for the future. And, you know, on the agentic side,
it's, it's wild, you know, what, what these agents, you know, on the agentic side, it's, it's wild, you know, what, what these agents, you know,
are coming up with, you know, thinking about doing, because, you know, we only we have a
finite, you know, attention span, but AI agent has unlimited amount of attention, and unlimited
amounts of ability to just, you know, create and, and go down, uh, what we call like rap
section, you know, it's almost like inception, but for digital assets. Um, and, and, uh,
but, you know, of course, um, I think that, um, I really love what Matt talked about and what Ken
talked about, because when it comes to, you know, the RWAs and, you know, just like, you know, Larry Fink, right.
Saying like, everything's going to be tokenized. You know, we,
we saw the same thing. I mean, there's, there's,
it's easy to tokenize something, right. It's easy to tokenize something when it
comes to, but doing it with integrity, that's a whole nother ballgame, right? Making sure that all the proof of reserves, you know,
making sure that asset is actually something that's valuable, all those different aspects
to it. And so we've already gone through that. And then the second point is, yeah, where does
that liquidity come from? Where is the market for those assets? And so that's a big part of what we think about
when we work with a client, especially our RWA clients, is how do we build the market demand?
How do we build the actual market for this product or for what you're trying to bring?
And then how do we engage the utility? And Matt was hinting at this. You know, that's the beauty of the blockchain.
There's utilities that you can do on the blockchain with RWAs and stable coins that you can absolutely not do in traditional finance.
And that's where, you know, the real moat is.
real moat is. That's where the real value is. And that's where the liquidity is going to be driven
That's where the real value is.
to those because you'll be able to get that yield. Make your assets hyperproductive.
Imagine being able to make a house hyperproductive, making those assets hyperproductive,
gold hyperproductive. And so I think that that's really the future.
And that's kind of like the place that we like to live and constantly exploring with all of our partners and all of our contracts and everybody that we're working with.
I think that real world assets, like you guys that are building the backbone for these strategies and being able to pair it with AI and all that, like there's going to be a couple different avenues.
One is obviously just AI and people just stumbling across these opportunities, but also going to where the users are.
And so there's certain centralized platforms like Robinhood or Coinbase or whoever that
are probably going to use their front end to accessFi, because they're already starting to do this.
And they'll want to have like this kind of like Web 2.5 experience where they use their platform and they have all these users.
And so like getting integrated into these type of platforms
to access their users is probably a good place but also like they're like uh something
i'm talking to teams about in in the real world asset space is launching on on chains where the
demographic really cares about um you know gold and silver or real estate. And so I'm building LitVM. One of our focus areas
is real world assets. And if you look at the Litecoin community or the hard money community,
they already, like compare it to something like the Solana community who are more centered around
degeneracy, PVP, et cetera. If you, if you build on a chain like lit vm uh it's kind of plugging myself here
you know you'll be able to offer strategies uh to a community that truly actually like cares
about these things and would want to know like how they could pair uh hard money you know with
these strategies as well so i i think there's several ways where you guys are going to be able to win big.
And those are some of them. Jack, your hands up, bro.
Jack?
I can hear you now.
Okay.
I'm out for a walk.
You're breaking up.
Is it just me or is it?
No, it's speaking.
I like
audible.
I don't even know
in real time or
or have I got
Hey bro, we can't hear you.
Unfortunately, man.
I can't. You're like
you're like every other syllable.
He's at the pub it's friday night doing some fist pumps now i think he said he was on a walk uh he's probably trying to get some sun
we we uh it's one of a kind of like an lda thing we all try to get out rock i'm surprised rock
hasn't chimed in yet and on this friday and said hey guys
you know it's important to go get sun get out and i just i just hiked 10 miles
rock usually does that like every where are you guys finding sun
i'm in california at the moment so plenty of sun here and i'm in arizona the valley the land the land
of sand i'm in the desert that's all we get we're shoveling suns yeah i i shared i shared in a group
earlier that um where i am in scotland we've had the longest piece on record where we haven't had
any direct sunlight it's been like i think it was since the 25th of January.
It was like 11 days or something.
We haven't had any direct sunlight.
That sounds crazy, man.
Hope you're taking your vitamin D.
Yeah, Rock's like, get out and walk.
And I'm like, okay.
And then I try to get on a call and it's like yeah i love i love my walking i i couldn't live without it i i mean i i chase the sun i'm
like you know cindy and i we're digital nomads so we spend about five six months of the year
in puerto rico we spend a few months in the States and we spend a few months abroad
in other countries. And like, we are always looking at what the weather is like for,
okay, let's go stay in this country for a couple of months, but we're making sure it
better be sunny.
Test, test. Am I audible?
There we go, Jack. Yeah, you sound good.
Right. Sorry, guys. I'm just out for a walk in this terrible weather, and I went over a hill, so the signal got out.
Okay, so I'm going to give an idea.
Aztec did predict he said you were probably walking.
Right, right.
I have to get those steps in.
So, yeah, I want to kind of give some of the AI builders on the space an idea.
Maybe they can get some stuff moving here.
Has anybody thought about tokenizing AI agents themselves?
So the concept is you would build an agent
that has tons of context,
tons of context in a specific niche.
So, you know, EG, digital asset,
treasury companies, for example.
And then it's able to make very accurate calls about what to do
there or it might be very very good at researching them and then you throw you either create an spv
structure in trad file you create a dow structure within crypto and then you'd sell the shares in that
ai agent's productivity the share uh financing would then fund the AI agent to get moving and then
that's kind of how you
would then distribute profit on the same line
I'll just say
absolutely
I believe that well one doesn dozen virtuals do something like this
as a more known one first
yeah i mean they they do um and you know there's several different platforms that do tokenize
agents and especially with like the claw bots or bots or open claw bots, you know,
whichever way you want to call them right now that, you know, that's a,
that's a big part of the like tokenization that's happening,
especially around like banker bot. I don't know anyone here.
If you don't know what banker bot is, you definitely should know. That's basically like the terminal that's on X where you can trade any crypto.
You can do limit orders.
You can do futures.
You can do all kinds of different things.
You can launch tokens.
You can just tag BankerBot and say, hey, launch this token and I'll launch a token. So you have a lot of agents that are using that
because they can get access to a wallet really easily
through Privy, through BankerBot, OnX.
And actually the BankerBot team is creating massive amounts
of opportunities for anyone that has AI agents right now
because like Mbook you know launched
their token on base um i'm sure you know those of you that been watching the agentic space have
seen moldbook literally everywhere um you know you have the rent a human right now where you can
literally the ai agents can rent humans there was a guy that uh for 100 bucks he went into a specific location and put up
a sign for with the exact wording that they did the agent wanted him to do and he verified it and
got paid 100 bucks you know stand out there on the corner um you know ai agent paid me to to
you know uh to hold this sign and then had like a tag it. We're going to see some really crazy
stuff when it comes to the agentic side of the blockchain use cases.
Yeah, I think
Marlin, city leader for Atlanta
BitAngels, also has AI Quant, which is basically that.
You can invest in these individual agents
or groups of agents that are trading,
and you can kind of hire them and tell them,
hey, these are the kind of coins I want to trade.
These are the market caps I'm interested in, uh,
trade within these kinds of parameters and it'll,
it'll trade based on your risk appetite. Pretty cool project.
That sounds awesome guys. And I, I do think that,
that these types of ideas are futuristic,
but probably a lot closer already here.
And that a lot of people would benefit from these.
I guess like with real world assets,
and since we still have a lot of the guys
that understand tokenization here
um where where are people getting started you know like i guess you guys would say um
your protocols and and and that's that's good too but like in general like how does someone
in general, like how does someone kind of jump down the real world asset rabbit hole?
You know, what are the, because like even real world assets, you know, someone might
hear that term and they, you know, they're like, what does that even mean?
You know, there's usually with each kind of category in crypto there's
a set of applications there's info sites there's terminology i mean if you were to tell your
grandma or a friend that's not very like savvy on blockchain like where where are people starting
these days and and getting involved in jumping down the rabbit hole?
So we work, I mean, you've just raised an immensely important point.
The nomenclature is challenging.
The technology is challenging.
The governance is challenging.
The legals are challenging to do it right.
I mean, everyone here that's been tokenizing, we've all said the same thing, right?
And we're all taking a really cautious approach.
I can't tell you the amount of bad assets that have come our way from all over the world,
including in the Americas,
where people are just trying to take liens on them and then trying to tokenize
them as if they got full custody or that they don't exist at all.
So you're absolutely right.
We, as a technology firm, we never intended on running a consulting business.
we never intended on running a consulting business.
And we work with partners who are consulting firms and legal firms
who their clients come to them and say,
we would like to do something in this space.
And they come to us.
In 100% of the cases now that we work with,
we have a consulting process
where we actually walk through
what it is they're trying to achieve.
And it's not the fact that
we're trying to get some consulting dollars.
Like, I can't remember who mentioned it early.
A lot of people have like a 90 sorry a 2020
view of tokenization it's a completely different game like what's the market what's the tech what
are we connected to what what are you trying to achieve with it is it is it just a number go up
thing you know and and so and even some of the treasury strategies, how they're looking at that, how they're running their funds.
It's very, very complex stuff. So seldom do we ever do it on our own without the guys that we are partnered with.
Securities guys, legal guys, our existing clients we piece together who've been through the process.
So so where to get started is just talk to us. And then, as with everyone on
this call, talk, you know, pick up the phone. We are in different stages of the process quite
often. There are some guys who just specialize on the RWA marketplaces, some specialize just
on the tokenization, everyone's got their thing um we have found that
building a small consulting practice uh to help people um is the only way to go really
yeah and this is for like people that are actually trying to build, right?
Or is this just, I'm guessing that's where the focus is?
Everyone who has assets typically is a business of a certain,
number one, you know how hard it is to find builders in a marketplace
because if they're really good, they're independent.
So you've got to build a team.
So a normal organization, let's say you're an insurance company
and you want to do tokenized risk books.
You're like, where do you go?
You go to one of the big four.
One of the big four can do it all for you.
That's great.
But if you're a second tier
then where do you go there isn't anyone no one at all so you look to the second tier guys you
start talking to your lawyers you start talking to your consulting companies and so like the top
tier like the the stripes of the world they'll go to chain link and they will they'll go to Chainlink and they will go to, you know, most likely Ernst & Young and they'll have the full package.
So, yeah, it's pick up the phone and just start talking and we'll guide you through the process.
build your own team. We spend a lot of time educating internal IT teams on how they can
support the ongoing management of the data feeds that we need to verify the asset is the asset
and the security protocols that they have to make sure that they adhere to and what a wallet is,
what a multi-signing event is, and how to work with
the auditors who verify and how to think about digital assets. The market's immature. I'm not
seeing a lot of people who I would say, from a consulting perspective, who've really grasped
the complexities of bringing on digital assets, digital, you know, securities and tokenizing
these things.
I think we're going to see a lot more of that onboarding specialists, which just aren't
many.
Got it.
And so that's a goodly, I don't know if you have anything like in a post that you can
put in the Jumbotron.
That would be really interesting, I'm guessing, for a lot of people.
But also, I am kind of asking in general, if you're just trying to learn,
if you're looking to dive down the rabbit hole.
Okay.
Well, on our website, we do have a ton, Instruxy.io.
And, of course, everyone's got their own.
We try and put out white papers every week.
And they're not white papers, sorry, opinions every week.
And so just sign up.
Just keep an eye.
We'll post them across.
Follow us, please.
We've just done one on why tokenized securities is boring.
We're working on other ones in terms of like
the last ones we've done are governance, how to do decentralized governance, decentralized policy
management. So we have a little engine of folks who produce papers. We all produce papers.
And we're all learning together. and we work with our partners.
We work with the Real World Asset Federation.
We're all trying to work together, working with Tau.
We're working with Pashoff Audit, some great, great guys.
And we're all contributing to kind of this thought management of what is an asset?
How do we govern it?
How do we govern it on chain?
How do we govern it off chain?
How do we govern it, how do we govern it on-chain, how do we govern it off-chain, how do we verify it, how do we make sure that there is confidence in what we do.
Yeah, it's a really complex topic. The other thing, I don't know, someone asked if we should set up kind of our own decentralized LinkedIn and create an RWA community.
I mean, number one, I don't like the fact that our data is harvested without our consent.
So we are working with a couple of clients on data privacy and secure messaging.
Maybe we just need to get smarter and build a proper community amongst ourselves, really expand the Real World Asset Federation and really open it up, do some
educational videos, these types of things.
That's what I was wondering. I think someone wanted to jump in but just real quick that's what i'm wondering because like
education is so important and and i i know there was um there was a an entity called
rwa world and uh this was about a year ago i i'm not sure if they're still around or if they're
producing papers and educational information but you know a lot of uh rwa teams were working with these guys to you know sponsor them to get their
you know information on their database and education built out for them and um but i i
haven't really seen any like little hubs to to like get a good understanding of where rwas are today so that you can just refer people
like that you know you're you're the average guy in blockchain like look go here you can go down
the rabbit hole you can learn about rwa the most recent policy um etc and i i think that would be so important for you know the adoption of um rwa technology
so yeah that's why i was also kind of asking like you know because we're producing a ton of content
we've put up the real world asset federation like no like it's it's a community let's let's do it
together let's build you're absolutely right right. From end to end, it's
really, really complex. You've got some guys who've done amazing things on their website,
like really, really good, really clear thing. But to access some of these top tier tokenization
platforms, you need a million dollars just to get started. You know, in our mind, it's so easy to tokenize,
as someone mentioned earlier.
It's the governance.
It's the proof of reserves.
It's the interoperability between the data systems.
It's verifying who it is.
It's doing a KYC and AML on a DDID
before someone does a signing event.
So you know an auditor is really verifying from
verified creating hierarchies of keys on who can sign and what they can sign for and how
how long their word is their word um so so it's not just number go in um
yeah let's let's build best practices but as a community, because, you know, you know what the saying is, we all know, we all know a lot more together than we do individually.
I love that.
Yeah, I love that as well.
And I know we put something on Jumbotron earlier about, I think you said it's a federation or is it federation yeah it's the real world asset
federation uh yeah we're in our early days there's about six organizations that are members now but
they're names right they're people you know who you've worked with in the past you've used their
protocols who are concerned about what we're concerned about yeah i just followed you so i can stay
in touch and figure things out love it and let me is the oh the instruct see let me follow that as
well um thanks awesome you guys rock what what do you you got any questions i i have more questions
i can ask for the panel or i don't know if anyone else in the panel wants to kind of dive into the
most recent question,
but,
Brock,
I'm not sure if you have any thoughts on questions on,
I guess the whole topic,
really.
Yeah.
On RWAs,
it's just very interesting.
I think they're going to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of web three.
And I think web three will benefit a lot from RWAs.
I think it's just a really good match the way our databases secure the kind of chain of custody of all these things.
And what we were talking about earlier, it's harder to kind of rehypothecate a lot of this stuff.
It's easier to audit.
It's more interoperable.
You can have something wild,
like you can borrow a sword in a game
against your collateral of like gold or silver or something.
And that one's a weird one, a niche one, but this is the kind of
niches that our industry can do because it's so interoperable. No company out there would make a
platform for putting your gold as collateral to buy video game items or like borrow video game
items. But in this industry, it doesn't matter what it is. All of this stuff will be interoperable eventually.
All the assets will be interchangeable, interoperable.
You'll be able to use anything as collateral as long as there's someone on the other side
willing to kind of make the market or you make the market or whatever.
So I'm surprised and I'm walking some pretty steep hills here.
So I'm surprised that RWAs haven't taken off more.
What I'm finding with some of my colleagues and looking at to potentially incubate is that a lot of them are able to get the assets on chain because so many people believe that this will be a big thing.
because so many people believe that this will be a big thing.
So in some cases, you can get 100 million in assets to come on chain,
and they're essentially cloning their database onto the chain,
which kind of goes back to what Andrea Santanopoulos talks about
with infrastructure inversion,
where at first, it'll be just kind of cloned databases, right?
You'll have the stock market or stocks or equities cloned on chain,
but the true ownership of them will still be in some certificate with the DTCC or something.
Whereas eventually, like already the New York Stock Exchange announced that they are going to be building a blockchain
or they already are building a blockchain exchange and they will allow their securities
to be traded on other chains as well in a more open way. But that's still kind of a secondary.
Our markets are secondary to those markets. But what'll happen eventually is you'll have this infrastructure inversion
where we will be the primary place
these assets are issued.
And then they may go other places,
but this will be the primary place.
You may still have
your traditional centralized exchanges,
but they will be built on top of blockchain.
And this is like, you know,
what happened with the internet.
At first, phone lines,
the internet ran on top of phone lines.
Now phone lines run on top of the internet because it was just a better system.
Right now, what seems to be happening is because people are anticipating what's going to happen
in the future and because Larry Fink and so many others have said, we will tokenize everything.
A lot of people are, you know, trying to be first movers there. They're bringing assets
over. There's lots of people who now feel comfortable because the rails and infrastructure
seems secure enough. And there's enough people saying it's legit that people are putting their
assets here. But in reality, a lot of these RWAs don't have a lot of volume. So a hundred million
dollars comes over, but it has like no volume.
Because the audience hasn't transitioned. It's the builders that are building this stuff,
the regulators that are, you know, approving this stuff and the asset managers who are willing to
take the risk and put these assets here. And luckily it's like low cost to manage the assets
in this way, but that people just aren't trading them because the crypto audience is like,
what are you going to give me?
You know, 6% on, you know, some kind of bond.
Well, I get a lot more than that.
You know, they're a more speculative crowd.
They want higher yields.
They want more upside.
They're like, well, I could just hold Bitcoin
and I'm probably making 40% a year on average, right?
So do I really want to hold these bonds?
So what we need now is we need the institutions.
And it's just some,
this is like the type of thing where it's just a momentum.
You need gravity to take hold.
You need enough.
There's a word, not escape velocity, but you need enough people to start moving over that now more
people will come over because the volume is here then the market makers from the traditional world
start to move over here which has happened to some extent right jump came gsr one thing brother but i
i also because like look i was just asking about like where do you get
started where do you get the information like i i really believe that it's something i said earlier
like gamification and making it fun is like could go a long way making it easy ai okay all that
matters but also just like bare bones like we need more education more marketing you know we need to create funnels
uh in this space to to make uh to to create awareness because like there's a lot of really
great tech you know good tech being built um and now we just got to get people through the tech. So that's the thing.
So for instance, with collectibles,
collectibles are going up.
You see Pokemon cards, either real-world assets.
There's
one, not one punch.
What's,
Rock, you know the anime with the stretchy guy?
One Piece.
One piece, you know, those, those real world assets, uh, those cards are going up like
crazy.
The younger audience loves collectibles as real world assets.
And then, but, but like, what is, what are they doing to, to get these people excited?
Well, they're going on Tik TOK and they got, uh, influencers ripping packs live and showing the opportunity
of, hey, you might
get this in a pack.
There's people creating
awareness of, well,
the opportunity of investing
in these
collectibles, real-world assets.
And then you've got real-world
asset projects like Courtyard,
you know, that have that niche where it enables you to...
And Courtyard's like on Polygon.
Our venture studio incubated Polygon back in the day.
But, you know, I think that's where,
in addition to making things easier and gamified if if it makes
sense it's really just creating the the opportunity so if there's any if there's anyone in the audience
or anyone that's ever looking for like you know to create these funnels the marketing just throwing
this out there shameless plug lunar digital assets you know we've we've uh we have like
three unicorns at this point we're also incubatingVM, which I'm a co-founder of.
We'd love to tackle that problem and help get users to real-world asset protocols and solutions.
LitVM, our fourth unicorn in the making.
Yeah, for sure.
But I see Jared has his...
That's a joke, guys,
not financial advice,
et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah, I interrupted you, Rock.
I just wanted to interject
that I really think it's the education
and the funnels that also have to be built.
I don't know if you were wanting
to finish your thought.
No, that was a perfect interjection.
Yeah, I think there's... that's the cool thing about RWAs
is it's such a broad topic.
RWAs can be commodities, which are hot right now.
It can be oil.
It could even be futures on corn and all kinds of,
I mean, there's all kinds of things that can touch this.
There's trading cards like Courtyard and all kinds of, I mean, there's all kinds of things that can touch this. There's,
there's, you know, trading cards like courtyard and, and all these, there's, there's all kinds
of things that it can be, which, which makes it cool. It couldn't be, I don't know, would you call
a video game asset a real world asset? Is that real world? Yeah. Yeah. People actually trade
like old games, you know, like, like a like Game Boy, the physical consoles.
I meant digital, like a sword in a game.
Is that an RWA?
I think video games are part of the real world, right?
I think it establishes the model.
I think it's just anything not blockchain native, kind of.
Yeah, and I think that, as you guys are talking about you know the gamification
aspects are are all about using the we're in discussions right now with a couple game
creators where you would win gold and gold you know would be the the the basically the reward
if you will and simplifying it so that everyone has access to it these are all things that you
have to do to kind of get people to understand that this is
real. This is, you know, not just a dialogue and it's not just a financial instrument, but it's
actually, you know, if I walked up to you and gave you a gold coin and said, hey man, I liked what
you did with your guitar. Here's a gold coin. You'd freak out. So the reality is that we, you're
absolutely right, you know, and it's a call to action, you know, to me and to Matt and to others
that are, you know, kind of spending every minute of their day thinking about how to build the ecosystem.
We now have to build the amplification system that gives visibility to that ecosystem.
And you guys are spot on.
So thanks.
I mean, it's great.
This is a platform that has allowed us to say, to tell the story.
that has allowed us to say, to tell the story.
Other platforms are, we're going to have to keep exploiting them
because if you're asking the question
with the knowledge that this group has,
it just, it's an eye-opening kind of moment for us
is that we have to do a much better job as an industry.
And that's what the RWA Federation is attempting to do
is not just create the context and create the parameters
that we all agree to us
in industry so that we can do it the right way,
but we also have to take initiatives
to increase visibility and that's incumbent on us.
Can I just say, if you're a builder
and you want to get into the space, learn Chainlink.
They are really leading the way in terms of verifying data on and off-chain.
And, you know, we use every single one of their functions protocols in building these hybrid
ecosystems for fully verified assets on and off-chain. So they've got some great training material um we're huge fans and have been for a
very long time yeah i'll definitely say that as well yeah chain link has some of the best uh for
verifiable data composability on chain you know making sure sure that that data is correct. Right. And they're a big pioneer on the RWA side.
I mean, you'll see constant announcements from them working with different governments,
working with different industries, you know, big players in all these different institutions
and enterprises.
And so it's, yeah, it's really, really quite something amazing.
Sorry.
Oh, I was just going to say, Matt, I completely agree.
Yes, we need so much more education about these topics.
And I mean, here we are, Ken, Matt, Nye, us, you know, up here that are working on this all the time.
And very few people actually know the true, you know, problems and the different solutions and everything that's happening on the RWA side of the coin. And most, I would say, at least from my experience,
most of the projects that say they're RWA
or working on RWA, they're just tokenizing
and they're not really thinking about
all of the different aspects of how to actually build the market,
how to build the audience, how to build the demand,
bring that liquidity in,
because that's really
what the real solution is, right?
It's really cool to put all these things on chain, but you got to have the liquidity
there and have people getting excited about using all these assets and moving the velocity,
the velocity of these assets. That's what
creates the connection, right? The connection between these assets. And I actually put a
article, if anyone wants to check it out, why value compounds through connection.
It's an article we put out, you know, beginning of this, this beginning of this year, actually.
And so, you know, if you want to take a deep dive into what we're thinking about when it
comes to the law of connected value and all these, you know, different first principles
when it comes to RWA assets and any asset and how that interconnects on the blockchain
and, you know, how it really fits with a lot of the successful models that have
happened before, um, in different industries. And so, but I think, um, can you, can you DM me that
bro? Uh, because, uh, so I'm actually writing, um, another research paper, uh, and it, it,
it actually, you know, it is a lightcoin research paper but um it's it's kind of
futuristic and i think that uh beautiful your paper might be interesting that fits that fits
just uh perfect i think and let me let me send that over to you right now yeah if it makes sense
i might be able to you know mention it in the in the uh yeah if there the if there's anything anyone
write research papers too if there's something you guys
think I should look
at and might want to source
please
I love reading and I
if I'm not reading like medical
journals I like
ancient civilization and then
my favorite topic is crypto technology so
i'd love to read you guys papers if there's something that you think uh super relevant
um or something that would make be good for me to read um i also just want to point out uh
um jordan i think you're finishing your thought but also Jared, you had your hand up earlier. So after you, Jordan, I'd love for, because we haven establishing a financial educational literacy foundation.
And why did we do that?
Because when we looked at the technology that we had built, everything that you can possibly
do with it, especially agentics, UGC, and all these composabilities, we realized that
you have to have everyone start with addition and subtraction before they can get
to calculus, right? Before they can get to, you know, being able to really understand the types
of concepts that we're bringing to the space. And so I just want to say that education is paramount.
That is paramount for everything that goes forward. And, you know, the more that we can help people to understand to have that
self-agency, because at the end of the day, it does come down to agency, right? It comes down to
self-sovereignty, responsibility for yourself, responsibility for your finances, responsibility
for your actions. When you go from that point and say, okay,
I'm going to take responsibility for everything that's happened in my life,
all the choices I've made, and I'm going to be proactive. That's when you go through a financial
literacy type of course. You can actually take back that power and really understand how financial systems work,
how the blockchain is going to empower you,
and what that future is going to look like.
And so that's a big part of what we're building out this year for Rift.
And so Matt, Ken, we would love to be a part of the RWA Foundation and see what we can do going forward with that.
Love that. Absolutely. And thanks to everyone today.
For the builders on Chainlink, we all love Chainlink.
There is a podcast in 30 minutes on CRE, and they're just launching a hackathon there's a hundred thousand
dollars in prizes um CRE if you're in RWA CRE is a great great product um it's worth learning um
chain link runtime environment is the ability to create really complex uh workflows um where a lot
of the governance works and you can use a lot of the
other Chainlink products in creating these golden threads of data between who are you,
what can you do, and where can you do it. So if you've got any time, my co-founder,
Austin Privitch, he's on it. He's ex-Chainlink. If you've got time today for the builders,
have a look at it please
man i would love to join we actually had them on to discuss this uh maybe like a month ago or
something a few weeks a month ago and uh yeah it was a great really cool product they built there
her product suite and kind of a way a sort of way to build um like interconnected primitives
but uh i actually am late for another
call unfortunately so i won't be able to make your show i wish i could and i do need to run here
aztec do you want to keep hosting or do we want to wrap it or i i gotta go too i i just didn't
want to interrupt the awesome conversation but yeah i also have to hop off this space uh but but i think uh maybe we could just
let jared uh he had his hand up i wanted to hear from him real quick i don't know if you have to
go i can just hear this car this uh point and i can stay on a little longer i want to i want to
quickly shout out some audience members too and read comments super quick but then I'll have to run. But yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, GM everybody. I have no idea how I ended up on stage. I went out and came back and now I'm on stage. And Rock, what you said makes a lot of sense. Like the people that are using blockchain,
their demographics are much younger and the people like us are degenerate and so we would prefer to play with
meme coins than to play with rwas and so it makes a lot of sense like what you said like the target
audience for these commodities rwas they're not yet on chain.
And so I guess the integrations will have to take place with platforms that these people use.
And yet these platforms will not integrate because integrating blockchains,
because of how blockchains are so decentralized.
We're built by cyberpunks, people who want less government control, less centralization.
And yet this is a barrier because these Web2 traditional institutions, they are so used to working with one party and having everything done.
Now, if they want to integrate a blockchain solution or RWA, they need to integrate like five or six, talk to five, six, union of RWAs, because if they can simplify the onboarding process
for applications like Revolut or Stripe
or Robinhood or whatever it is,
I think it'll help the reach of these assets
to get to the people who want them
and not just get ignored by the degenerates.
And also, I think what Ken is doing
with using that gold as a reward
for some kind of competition,
I think that that is a great way
to onboard new people as well.
The people that in my circle
who are now on-chain,
not on exchanges,
they are on-chain because I gave them
some kind of asset or an nft and then
they ended up loving it and staying and so like giving people something is a great way to bring
them on board but we can't be giving everybody stuff you know that they have to want to come on
board and so yeah i think uh simplifying, bringing our RWA projects to where the target market is,
I think that's the best way to do it.
Yeah, just wanted to share my thoughts
before you close the space.
Of course, Jared, save the best for last.
Much love, Jared.
Yeah, it's always good to have you here.
Yeah, Rock, I got to go.
I'm not sure if you want to close it up then
since you have a little bit more time.
Sounds good.
My call said they could wait a second.
They're listening to the show, so they said it's cool.
All right.
Nice.
Cool.
All right, later, everybody.
See you next Friday. Thanks, man. All right. all right cool uh all right later everybody yes yes thanks man all right let's uh let's shout out
some audience members here we got luke the man in the house we got king dank kush we've got uh
let's see rainbow digital fellow we've got john sharp we've got mocha we've got legion we've got John Sharp, we've got Mocha, we've got Legion, we've got User, we've got Based,
we've got On My Way Up, giving you a follow back, we've got PhiloMexe, we've got ElenaBase.eth,
giving you a follow back, we've got Minibase.eth, giving you a follow back. We've got minibase.eth giving you a follow back.
We've got Lori Smith.
We've got Hashem Khan.
We've got Mangus.
We've got Arun.
We've got Hafiz.
We've got Prakash.
If you guys are following me, i'm giving you follows back um let's see here
we've got i on digital corp following you back all right let's read uh some comments here real
quick quick sub says good tech if anybody wants to post a comment quickly i'll shout it out if
you have anything to say before we hop here uh we have rainbow says hard assets versus digital scarcity uh classic mass matchup well i would even
make the argument that bitcoin litecoin and other similar digital assets are also they're hard assets
so but i mean i guess they're not physically. I mean, the people say the reason we call, you know, gold sound money is because when
you drop it, it clanks and makes a sound.
I don't know if that's true or what the history of the nomenclature there is.
But anyways, Beat Happening says Darren is a miner.
Who led him into this space?
WTF.
I mean, he's a panda too. I didn't even, I mean,
do I have animals here? Spectre says his banker bought similar to graphene.
Did I miss an inside joke? Woof says bear market for beats happening. Spectre says,
good morning, everyone. Great conversation about RWAs tonight. Planx says retard maxing while the mark while the market fs us all who
says uh have to go chat love you all and who said someone mentioned ukraine and he gave uh
jack black saluting um yes show four says i'm here for episode 148 and put a batman emoji uh happening says the is darren
leroy j says live now you already know how king dang cush says good morning everyone and put a
sunshine emoji miss b says i'm in good to see you miss b uh callisto says join goof uh did the praise uh emoji luke did uh
napoleon dynamite jiff saying hi there uh philomex c says for me bitcoin is digital gold yes the
four-year cycle seems broken but it seems like a store value i don't think the four-year cycle
seems broken for bitcoin it seems perfectly on track for Bitcoin.
I think for altcoins, it seems questionable.
But for Bitcoin, it hit pretty,
it may be a little like earlier than people expected,
but pretty on time. And we're seeing exactly what was predicted,
which I kind of didn't totally expect.
I was hoping, I was being a little more optimistic
that we had a little longer.
But Michael Turpin, my good friend with his super cycle book, predicted these timelines. And when the Binance
weird stuff happened, he says, this is it. We're probably 80%. He said, we're just going to crash
from here in the cycle. The Bitcoin cycle is over. His fund, his $20 million fund, actually shorted
Bitcoin around that time, around the 120K, 125K mark,
pretty close to the top. And I think he still might be short or he may have closed to short.
I'm not sure, but okay. Brave says live and listening. Timmy Arno says gold has 5,000 years
of monetary history. Bitcoin has 15 years. That's nothing's nothing it's very true but you know what
brick and mortar shops had a million you know 10 000 years of uh history and uh amazon is just
on them so and e-commerce is just taking over right so um things do get disrupted and uh i
think gold will be around for probably another 5,000 years, but I think Bitcoin will slowly eat market share is my personal opinion.
It's just a superior asset and it's native to a digital world, which the entire world
is going digital.
And again, the auditing and all that that we talked about earlier.
Instruxie says a full protocol stack connecting real world assets to global financial markets
and gave a link to the RWA Federation. You guys can check into that if you like. Riff says de-rifting time. Jack Mai says
good morning everyone. Now if anybody posted any new stuff let me refresh. I don't know if that's
how it works but let me see if it doesn't seem to be refreshing or anything, but okay, guys,
thanks everyone. If any of the panelists want to say anything to close this out,
we can hop off here and thank you for the audience for hanging in here for almost three hours and
almost three years. We're at 148 episodes. I think what, 156 would be exactly three years.
So we're almost at the three-year mark we'll
do something big for that episode guys uh and thanks everyone who's been you know fans of the
show and attends this with us and goes for walks with us every friday um and thanks to all the
panelists over the years i see a bunch of you in the audience um yeah cheers guys and i know the
market kind of feels shitty but this is but this is what we signed up for.
This is the volatility of a new emerging asset class
and still Bitcoin is still the greatest performing asset
of our lifetimes, even with this drop.
And this is just a temporary pullback.
So load up.
Any panelists want to say anything
or just say bye before we go?
Yo, Rock, I think to celebrate the the anniversary we should give some gold away yeah i like that yeah yeah you got some gold
to give away on the in like seven eight episodes i'll give you uh my wallet follow up with that i
do like that idea and we'd be we'd be interested to talk to you.
Okay, cool. Let's do it. We used to do a lot of giveaways on the show. You know, we've never taken a single sponsorship dollar. LDA and Quickswap have spent, you know, easily six figures
producing this show for three years and we've never taken a single dollar of sponsor money.
We've refused all sponsor money and we've kept the show you know organic and and uh
neutral and unbiased and we've had everyone from you know friends to enemies to frenemies on the
show uh to plead their sides of any given topic um so let's bring back the giveaways enemy enemy enemy
we can definitely do some giveaways but
appreciate you having us again
guys it's been a very
valuable conversation
fantastic I didn't
know that three hours had gone by already
so that's a great conversation
we're all having
everyone who's still here by the way
if you see our numbers on the show are lower right now we're're only at 150 people. I think we peaked earlier at like 225, 250.
Our numbers are getting lower in this terrible market as all shows have been and just general
attention on the space. So what I'll say to that is kudos to everyone that's still here, everyone
that's still following the industry, everyone who's building in the industry, everybody who's, even if you're not building in the industry, if you're just contributing, if you even just like some stuff on Twitter or, you know, tell your friends about Bitcoin or Web3 or RWAs or, you know, you, you, if someone says like, oh, that, that space is a scam and you, you, you know, in your regular life and you say, well, I don't know,
you should look into it more. It's an interesting space and give them some interesting facts that
might make them like a little curious. So they check into it a little more. But whatever you do,
if you're contributing to the space, thank you. And I think everybody who sticks through these
hardest times will be rewarded. LDA, our venture studio,
every time the market gets really hard,
you know, and we kind of, like anyone,
we try to kind of, we lever up our assets,
meaning we don't take any leverage or do anything crazy like that,
but we invest in a lot of projects.
And that's a risk, right?
We've invested eight figures in projects
over the last few years leading up to this cycle.
And a lot of those altcoins, we've told them to hold back from launching because the altcoin
market wasn't so good.
So we take risk.
And every time we're always trying to see how much risk as a business can you take in
expanding and investing without over-levering.
And we've always done a
good job of maintaining that. And we've survived now three cycles. But the cool thing is every time
after, as long as you kind of manage your risk properly, and then you survive the bear markets,
everybody, all the other companies and projects and people that were fakers, or were just here for,
you know, the fat gains or whatever
um and and didn't manage their risk properly they're gone and it's an open field when spring
comes so spring will come and uh you guys are still here and planting the seeds i i think this
is winter and spring will come and just keep planting seeds, guys.
Amen, brother.
Amen.
Beautifully said.
I just wanted to say thank you for having
us here, having me here.
Really appreciate it. And Jared, it's lovely
to hear your voice, mate. It's been too long.
I think it's been years.
Good to see you around.
Good to see you again, Ken and Matthew.
Yeah, likewise.
Thank you all.
And it's great to hear you.
Spaces, voices, anybody.
I mean, it's like...
He's a school teacher, though.
This is his professional voice.
We're being schooled.
Hey, can we...
Speaking of voices, can we, speaking of voices,
can we get a special request here?
Can we get a, can we end on a Kamehameha?
Oh, man.
I have it done now.
It's spaces forever.
All right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right.
Just a sec.
Let me just make sure that my-
Warm up.
Let me just make sure my dad is not sleeping.
He's going to go close his office door.
Because my dad had a stroke September last year.
Now he's living with us.
We're taking care of him.
So he's in the other place.
Shit, man.
My dad had a heart attack in October of last year.
Oh, bro.
I'm so sorry.
I mean, it's crazy how young people are having strokes and heart attacks and all those different things
right my dad's only 60 so um all right i'm gonna go check on him real quick and i'll warn him okay
because yeah just a second while while you do that we can talk about that guys keep your parents
healthy i'm actually staying with my parents uh right now in california my my dad had a heart
attack last year my mom got two knee surgeries and so i'm here really trying to encourage them to
come walk with me to go to the gym to go to the sauna to eat well to stop eating all the
bullshit says that but it's just because he's cheap uh sure no No, I actually help them a lot
with money for stuff.
But yeah.
Anyways, yeah.
Keep your parents healthy, guys.
Keep yourselves healthy.
All those things I just mentioned
that are good for parents
are good for you too.
And if you start early,
I mean, like diabetes is an example
and cholesterol and heart attacks
and plaques in your veins.
These things take 10, 20, 30, 40 years to build up.
So you got to start early because you don't want to wait until your veins are all plaqued up until you do something about it.
Just do something now.
Yesterday was the best day to do something about it.
Today is the next best day.
So do it today.
And join our health spaces.
We do them every few months.
We just did one and we had Aubrey de Grey,
leading longevity scientist.
Really cool that I had the honor
and Aztec and I and Darren here and others
had the honor of Nicole interviewing him.
You know, he was interviewed by Joe Rogan.
He's been on like 10 TED Talks around the world.
And we had him here on this show talking about longevity and health. And we had a bunch of other
really cool experts on some like regenerative agriculture farmers and someone that was pretty
into like genetics, another person doing like specialized uh medicines like
alternative medicines it was a really cool space so join those health spaces if you see them those
are actually maybe my favorite ones oh that's incredible man so i am back i did i did warn my dad um he uh he is waking up right now so we're we're good
but all right everybody get hyped up let's go yeah let's let's uh let's build the you know the
spirit bomb right you know we like like uh rock was saying it is winter right now in crypto but
we have every reason to be optimistic for the future because this is the
future. This is where everything is going to take place. This is the settlement layer of the digital
age. And this is, you know, this is the place, this is the place we're all blessed. So for those
of you that don't know Dragon Ball Z, yeah, sorry, but, but, you know, you can go
check it out.
But this is a very
popular
hype thing from
that show.
Charging up energy,
getting ready to attack an
enemy with
this particular
energy blast. And so i'm i'm gonna
recreate it here we're attacking the big big governments that are overbearing and manipulate
the money and all the big institutions that have been rent seeking and taking you know from from
all of us through inflation and through rent seeking and centralized control we're we're
gonna come a humane them right now that's right that's what that's that's what this kameha meha
is all about all right here we go you ready all right let's do it
Nice, man.
Nice.
All right, guys.
That's awesome, man.
I'm going to practice that myself.
I got to get that down.
All right, guys.
Have a good one, everyone.
Have a great weekend. See you guys. Bye-bye. Bye, guys. Have a good one, everyone. Have a great weekend.
See you guys.
Bye-bye.
Bye, buddy. Thank you.
