Awesome, awesome, Karen, thank you for your time, sir.
No worries, talk to you guys soon.
And well, as we see Karen go,
we're gonna bring one of our gaming content creators
up to the stage, see how long it takes for Twitter
to respond to a classy crypto, AKA 0x Jesus Martinez.
Jesus, how are you this morning?
Dude, Karen just left, I cannot believe it.
Did you ask him about the metrics on his marketing campaign
for the Alluvium PvP beta?
Because last I heard, Alluvium was really doubling down
on getting Web2 creators some exposure into Web3.
So I was very curious on his perspective
on how that actually went.
Yeah, you know what Jesus, if you were here on time,
I'm kidding, no, let me stop, let me stop playing with you.
Oh, no, he left, I think Ian did ask him
on some of the content creator style rewards,
but that was a little bit earlier.
Yeah, really a quick synopsis of what they're doing.
Their top 75 creators are gonna be earning
and they have like well over 250 content creators
that they've onboarded that they're working through.
So that was kind of the quick rundown
from what Karen had mentioned.
All right, thank you, Ian.
So what's the topic of the space?
So we are one overarching topic,
like the main through line is about blockchain gaming,
whether or not it's resurgence or, you know,
should we call it a comeback, I guess is the main question.
We know what LL Cool J would say Jesus,
but he's not here, so what do you all think?
Yeah, actually, I believe we have
engine starter here as well, representative.
So let's get from the launch pad viewpoint,
either them or change EPT, whichever one,
because you guys are seeing,
I would imagine, in search of requests for launches
and you're going through your vetting on some projects now.
So what's the consensus at your guys' level
on what you're seeing in crypto in general,
as far as, you know, gaming launches, that kind of deal?
So just to introduce myself,
if whoever doesn't know me,
I'm Gantara, some launch pad manager at change EPT pad.
So currently we have seen, you know,
really a lot of traction coming from, you know,
that tree project and we launched our launch pad
So since then, they were more like, you know,
focused more like, you know, AI, DeFi sort of projects.
But now we started to see, you know,
the game five narrative, you know,
growing community interested more, you know,
to participate in game five projects.
And this is also where we are also starting
to kind of looking into, you know, this industry,
talking with the founders, you know,
you know, expanding our team with more people
who are experiencing, you know, in game five industry,
you know, for the due diligence, et cetera.
So we are now really, really open for game five
and a few sort of projects.
In terms of like our current launches,
so we just started really to work with gaming projects,
but we have already quite many in the pipeline.
The first one that has been announced
and we are planning to launch next month is experts.
But yeah, so I think this year is going to be quite,
you know, big for game five projects.
Myself, I've been working, you know,
with the game, in a gaming studio before change the path.
So I've been working a lot with the developers
and I know, you know, how long
and how sometimes it could be frustrating
to really create a really good quality blockchain game.
So I think, you know, the ones that are really, really going,
you know, the ones that are really like good ones
and that's going to be going to see a huge success,
you know, they are not quick to develop,
especially having in mind the blockchain technology
that could make it more complex.
But, you know, like as a launch path,
we evaluate, you know, who's behind the projects,
what are the game mechanics, token utilities,
what's the roadmap, tokenomics, I didn't mention.
And, you know, like in that way,
we try to evaluate how the project is going to be potential,
even if like you're the game launch.
But yeah, we are now really, really excited, you know,
to bring more projects into our launch path and yes.
And I have a question for you.
How feasible would it be since a massive platform
like Telegram is currently being, you know,
kind of routed in gaming now by ton
to have maybe some kind of relationship with Launchpad, right?
I would imagine there has to be some kind of relationship
with the Launchpad and hence the gentleman right beside you,
Jack, I'm just trying to, you know, just saying,
making connections where things fit, you know.
I believe Chain GPT are already integrating into Ton.
Yeah, I just, I was just searching our Telegram chats
feverishly, they're going,
I'm sure I've heard of these guys before.
That's good, that's good.
So what are your guys' plans with Telegram and Ton?
This is more like an answer, you know,
for our BD person to answer.
But, you know, we can definitely continue the conversation
Definitely don't want to spill too much Alpha,
And I believe the, also the wonderful Anisha.
if you haven't made the connection with Engine Starter,
we have Anisha here as well.
I'm good, I'm good, thank you.
Hey Jack, thank you so much for the sharing earlier on.
and we'll see how we can work with you as well.
So being around for the past two years
We see a lot of projects coming back,
those that we invested during the early days
with better build up projects
and now wanting to focus on user acquisition.
So definitely want to reach out to you
Thank you so much for the sharing earlier on.
This is turning out to be a really valuable space for me.
Jack, now you know who you're doing business with, sir.
Gotta throw my blocks media group ladies and gentlemen.
so we got a viewpoint from Change EBT
on kind of what has been as an insurgent.
So are you guys seeing kind of more requests
or do you think that's still kind of like a still water
like it's been during the bear market?
No, it definitely has come back with a big bang
for the deal flow, the pipeline is massive,
So having said that we are more stringent in our review.
We've since, as I mentioned earlier
and we've been around since 2022
and we started with our mandate on Game 5.
So during that time, we were very,
let me put it in a very diplomatic way,
very kind and listing every potential hopeful.
But no, we've learned from that
and now we look up for credible projects
in terms of founders who are serious about building,
serious about building products that actually work,
games that gamers can actually use
instead of those clucky ones,
games that have user experience in mind
and they don't shoehorn the whole Web 3 or blockchain jargon
and how can the user, the gamer play the game first
and then benefit from the Web 3 blockchain elements.
So this is how we assess our project from our lens
before we offer to the community.
Yes, there is hype, there's one thing,
but investors are also more literate now.
They scrutinize the project for the product first,
then only hype second, because nowadays our investors
truly keen in being invested in the projects
as compared to just our token game.
Wow, and so let me ask you this,
and this is for both you and Change GPT,
are you guys seeing MVP ready launches
or is this like their launch and raise?
including myself and a bunch of my partners,
we invested in 2021 and caught the hype of pre-MVP,
la, la, la, and what is it?
80% of them have gone bankrupt,
our money has been burned to liquidity,
you know how a deal goes.
So, I mean, what's that looking like now for us?
I mean, can I get back into this?
Cause I'd love to open my personal fund, VC fund again
and start going in, if there's hope, if there's hope.
we list projects that have bare minimum MVP
or we've seen the demo and they tell us
that they're gonna release it at certain date
in accordance to their token sale.
So that's for us, we do see the whole junk as well,
but for us, we work with projects
that are really with MVP for 2024
because it's a serious game right now.
So the hopefuls, we give them a pat on the back,
we can help you with our marketplaces.
We have a lot of, we have a lot of middleware
and backend partners that can help
from the development perspective.
That's where we push them towards,
we list them with those who have decent product built.
Yeah, actually that's a good question
because in 2022, we saw a lot of launches
based on just games who provided all the trailer
and those trailers probably weren't even like
how actually the game would actually look like real.
So definitely, we first test the game,
we ensure that it's like good quality
and we don't rely on just traders provided by the founders.
So MVP is the minimum requirement for sure.
Amazing, I see some hands up now with
from Katana Inu and Scott, of course,
let's go back in that order.
What's on your mind, fellas?
Thanks for being so patient.
Hi, I'm there, here you go.
So I would love to speak about the topic today.
but when you say is blockchain gaming back
I think it never arrived before.
because previously all the games were only about earnings
and it was not about the game play, the game mechanics,
the game design, the game design,
it was about the game play, the game mechanics
and how players get involved.
Though when we compare web three gaming with web two,
because web two gaming is so mature now
because it has been there from such a long time now
and web three gaming is like very new, it's very young
and I'm very excited for the year 2024
because I've seen lots of good games coming to web three.
They will learn about everything.
They will learn about wallets.
They will learn about everything,
but what they want is the content
they want to play the game.
So if the web three games provide good enough content
to gamers, they'll be more than happy to learn on board
So that's something that has changed.
So I think blockchain gaming is arriving very soon.
And on your question, J Crypto, last question,
where you say, I have also loads and loads of VC friends
and whenever I talk to them,
they say that we see now a lot of deal flows in game five.
Actually, the problem is the space is very young.
The people joining the space is very young.
They don't have much prior experience of business
as you say, people like lot of games got bankrupt
because when there is a lot of money,
and they think they can get it again.
But when there is a bear market,
it becomes really hard to survive.
And that's why for Katana,
we have been building all bear market.
Like if you see a trailer from 2021,
our actual gameplay is better than the trailer.
So it's all about being with the right business mind
and doing the right things at the right time.
Well, you know, to say that it,
and maybe, you know, maybe because there are
quite a few games that have,
that started the fund, right?
And they're still here now.
And, you know, some of them, like, for example,
Kieran and Alluvium, he wasn't ready in 2021,
but he did, you know, they had their launch after,
you know, everything wrecked, you know, crypto,
whatever, but you know, he launched after
and now, you know, he's scaling at a good rate.
So that's, you know, there were some things
that were started then, but yeah, you're right.
As far as, like, maybe just started, launched,
it's an outlier at that point, right?
Scott, I believe Scott, he's had of him for a little while
and then Asad from the great medieval empires.
Yeah, so if we can go in that order, please, Scott.
So it's funny, because I was actually gonna speak
on the same exact thing that Katana was talking about,
but I wasn't gonna word it quite like that,
but I liked the way that he did,
that, you know, Web3 games never arrived.
I think that, you know, is blockchain gaming back
I think what's gonna happen is everyone
who didn't learn their lesson throughout the bear
that play to earn games just to earn token
and hyper casual, you know, piece of shit games
that people are pumping out, copying old IP,
just aren't gonna make it in the next bull run
if they haven't learned their lesson.
And if all the investors and all the speculators
haven't learned their lesson,
they're gonna get fucking wrecked in the next bull run,
investing in these hyper casual games
that are just play to earn.
Because if you by now don't understand
what it means to be a gamer,
and you don't understand what it means to have a game,
yeah, sure, you can still make money, you know,
on the FOMO of those types of things, right?
But if you didn't survive through the bear
and learn any lessons, you're just not gonna make it.
And when the bull run comes,
you're not gonna be positioned properly
to be able to make the most amount of money,
you're not gonna have the right tokens,
you're not gonna have the right NFTs.
you're not gonna be in the right communities.
You have to understand that, you know,
the world is ready for web three games.
The world is ready for asset ownership,
NFT integration, token utility.
The world is ready for all these things.
It's just that not a lot of games
figured out that ecosystem yet.
I know just, I can speak for myself
because I'm here building every single day at WAGMI.
We are figuring it out, have figured it out
and are working with a lot of really smart people
talking to the creators that are making content for us,
talking to other founders to see what worked for them,
I mean, the games that break out in 2024
are gonna be the ones that learn their lessons
and wanna be successful and wanna have a future franchise
and wanna have multiple games and do it right, right?
Like I saw a roadmap yesterday for a project.
They said that their goal is to have like 200 games.
It's like, bro, do you know how much time it takes
If your roadmap is to have 200 games,
you're just basically cycling people
from one shitty game to the next.
Sure, you can still make money, but that's not gaming.
That's not how you become the next big franchise, right?
That's just how you stay afloat barely
with Swimmies on maybe, I don't know.
Well, let me touch up on this, Scott,
and yeah, before I get to,
just to the other hands really quick, I just wanna,
and maybe you guys can chime in on this too as well,
because this is something that,
at least for pure statistics,
it's something that I've openly spoken about,
but it is still in the back of my mind is
with the dilution there is in computer games, right?
Let's look at Web2 customers, right?
Because that's obviously a massive,
I mean, it's billions of dollars
in flowing in those games, right?
So not a niche here in crypto, right?
Because we're still, no, not to degrade our presence,
but if you compare the user base of Web3 to Web2,
especially in computer games,
specifically PC, Linux, or Mac devices,
it's, there's no comparison, right?
I mean, the dilution you get when you launch a game,
going to Web2, you would absolutely just have to,
by chance, just be the most viral thing ever
or spend an insane amount of money,
which we haven't kind of seen yet.
I don't believe so, if I'm wrong, please tell me.
So if you look at success rate of adopting that,
yes, you can obviously come in as most games do
and start building, starting the Web3,
but to me, it's a scale thing to breach Web2, right?
So there's a stipulation that Web2 gamers hate Web3
and I think it's because of how,
I mean, because look, with the way Web2 games scale,
what's the ultimate dream to be on what, Steam, right?
Steam is, I mean, yes, the dilution is crazy,
but you wanna go on Steam and to get downloaded,
have the optimal marketing viewpoint, right,
of games being downloaded.
If we look at Epic Store, which is that they've listed
now Web3 games and that kind of deal,
the scale of it, it's still not there.
So then what's the dilemma?
What's the next point of entry, right?
Console games, mobile games.
So why hasn't, I mean, that's what I understand,
why aren't there more mobile games being created
if that's the most duplicatable thing, right?
Now, yes, there is a sense of, oh, my token can get farmed
or I'll have trouble with the assets or things like that,
but just to let you know and to give everyone a scale.
Unfortunately, Vlad couldn't be here.
We are in talks of partnership with Gunzilla
and Gunzilla, they have found a way
to not only breach Web2 as far as getting on consoles,
the very first Web3 game to get on, Web3 backed,
sorry, that's the way it has to be heard,
Web3 backed game to get on consoles
where they can take the asset out of the game and be sold.
The currency cannot, but the asset can.
So when there's a will, there's a way.
Now, whether it's a limit of technology,
technological kind of, not technology,
but there's a technological expertise,
there are people that are doing it.
He's, all eyes are on this game.
I mean, it's launching here in February,
mind you, I have zero vested interest in this.
I did pass on the, because of 2021,
I did pass on the seed round, unfortunately,
shame on me, but it is what it is.
I still support because it's something historic
I mean, especially here, talking game five,
it's literally a veil that's being pierced.
I mean, it's absolutely amazing,
but maybe if I can get from you guys,
and I believe Asad's next, he did have a hand up next.
And you know, we're mobile, right?
Like we're doing all that too.
Like we have a plan for all of that.
I mean, right now in the game,
you can buy all of the NFTs with a credit card,
the tokens being integrated into the Play Mechanics as well,
already downloadable on Android.
I mean, all of that, like you're right,
where there's a will, there's a way.
And the reason why there's not a lot of mobile games
is because, I mean, we've been saying this for two years.
We said, this is what we said on the next crypto gem
to George Leah and Brian.
Like everyone is sleeping on mobile.
Why is everyone sleeping on mobile?
Everyone has a phone, not everyone has a PC.
You cannot break into the India market
if you have a game that costs money.
They just won't download and play it.
They don't care, but they'll start to play
and spend their money if, you know,
their friends are playing it, right?
Like you have to have people on your core team.
And this is something we talked about too.
You have to have people on your core team
who have built and delivered games.
Last March, we hired, you know, Brent Pease.
He was the general manager at EA.
And then he brought on board Esteban Gil,
who was the senior production lead
on Apex Legends Mobile and Grana Free Fire.
And a few other guys that do telemetry
and data management, right?
If you wanna build and scale,
you need people on your team
that know what the hell they're doing.
And the reason why a lot of web three games
in general failed is because it was just web three bros
who wanted to take advantage of the technology
and really give a shit about a fun game,
which is why they focused on NFT mints, you know,
and then had new NFT mints and then had multiple tokens
when the first token didn't even make
any fucking sense yet, okay?
So that's why there's not a lot of mobile games.
Everyone slept on mobile when Wagney was screaming
from their rooftops, we're all gonna make it.
We're building for mobile.
And that's why now we're here and we're ready
and we'll probably be globally launched by April.
And we're more than happy to talk with other founders
if they have questions or wanna work with us, right?
I'm not standing on my soapbox here to be arrogant.
I am a very outspoken person,
but I'm more than happy to chat with anyone
and give them advice and show them what we did
to kind of overcome different paths and different hurdles.
It has not been a straight line.
You know, this path isn't even an unpaid path to,
you know, it's a fucking forest.
We're still cutting down the trees
before we can even make the dirt path
to then later make the tar path, right?
And put an actual road down.
That's how early we are to web three.
So if you wanna put the work in and grind
and work for free for two years, three years, right?
And put all of your money
into building your actual game and ecosystem.
Sure, you can get it done,
but it's gonna take a lot of work
and it's gonna be a lot of pivoting.
There's gonna be a ton of innovation.
we were the first mobile game to implement the Passport.
And even that was a few weeks late
because we implemented it
and then there were some things that we had to fix.
But that's the whole point of innovation.
That's what makes this whole space so exciting
is that we are here, we are doing it first
and we know that we are incredibly early
to all of this technology
and we're happy to run into these problems.
You know, I'd rather have problems to run into and solve
than nobody gives a shit about what we're doing,
I guess is the best way to put it.
And that's coming from someone who's been a creator
on YouTube for 13 years and has built businesses.
This is a whole new monster,
but it's challenging and incredibly fun.
And we're happy to be here
and we're happy to be in the trenches with all of you.
Anybody has any partnership requests?
Scott is the man, Ian's the man.
Asad, I think you were next, my bad.
Listen, medieval empires, talk to us, my friend.
Yeah, I have some points on a lot of what was said.
Maybe I start on the mobile gaming stuff.
So I think mobile games obviously have a big reach,
but if I talk from medieval empires point of view,
when we started with the idea two years ago,
we were not sure how mobile and web three
will evolve in the future.
And then you always need to do risk management
in terms of what you're building,
because they're different type of games, which are PC games.
And there are a lot of successful PC only games.
I would not say you need to be on mobile,
but obviously if you have a game
which works very well on mobile, sure,
I mean, it's always different perspectives
and different target groups you have.
The Indian market, yes, is very big,
but the buying power is very low.
So the question is for free to play game, for example,
is it too good to go on this market
or this market at the beginning, yes or no?
So there are a lot of things you need to consider
before you go on different markets.
And then also mobile is much more complicated
because you have so much different devices
you need to consider to be on different Android phones
And we will also go this route now
after releasing our open beta in April,
we will also go on mobile after that.
But it's not very easy, I would say.
The other thing I want to say is about ownership
when Kiran was talking about it and also Katana Inou.
I think Kiran is right if ownership is not maybe yet there,
but also here, it's again the perspective
because if we go to the East Asian countries,
ownership is already there.
The big gaming studios in East Asia,
they are jumping on board, they are building crypto games.
And this is a culture thing
because if you go to some of these countries in East Asia,
you had communism or some other forms
of how they lead their country.
And they didn't know what ownership is for a long time
And they love ownership because they never had it basically.
And that's why they really like it.
But if you go to the US or Europe or other countries,
So they know ownership for a long time.
And they don't care too much
if there's ownership in games right now.
I think this is the big difference you see
from the West and the East.
but still there's a lot of players
who did not adapt to ownership,
but which is fine because if you have a good game
and you implement a real ownership in it
in a very fluent way that people even don't recognize
and you educate them in the game about ownership,
I think this is how it will work out.
And this is also how we will do it.
And I heard some other projects.
We are also on IMAX on their Zero Knowledge Layer,
their first Mina partner there.
And yeah, so I think we will see a lot of good games
because we saw a lot of inflow of VC money two years ago.
And as everyone said, it takes time to build great games.
That's why we don't see yet the great games
because money was there two years, three years ago.
And now the first games will come out
and then bring probably blockchain gaming
So yeah, that's my point on that.
And my last point is for Launchpads,
what I hope will happen is that
because in these days, if the next bull market starts,
usually Launchpads, obviously they want to earn money.
Everyone wants to earn money.
But the question is, and I hope this taking care
that these Launchpads have people who understand
who can build good games.
Because as already mentioned, if you have a team
which could already deliver good games,
this is a high chance that they can deliver
But I see still on a lot of Launchpads,
some gaming folks which never built any games.
And then the question is, does it really make sense?
They will get money, obviously,
because everyone wants to earn on the Launchpads.
But if we see a lot more games
which are not very good and they get money,
it's also not very good for the community,
for the web tree community in gaming especially.
So I'm confident they will solve it.
But yeah, that's my take on the different points.
I want to just quickly welcome to the stage,
we have a new panelist, Marco Faccini.
And thank you for letting me go past all the hands.
You're a gentleman and a scholar.
He's got us from the door and saying,
all right, half you guys.
No, by all means, since we're here,
we'll circle back quickly.
We have hands up from Katana Inoue and Gaius,
So I forget which order we had that in,
but I mean, hey, we're all adults here.
So let's see what's on everyone's mind.
Oh my God, I have so many things to say here.
Like this is something that is,
I really appreciate everyone giving their thoughts out.
And I think ownership does matter to the west,
also to the east as well.
And I think there are a lot of things
that is a big challenge for any web three game to develop.
In crypto, everything moves fast.
Everybody who's coming in wants 100X, 50X,
and they just wanna do an exit.
Unfortunately, games takes loads of time to build.
So they have to wait for their 100X or 200X pumping in.
we exhibited in Tokyo Game Show,
and Japanese are real hardcore gamers.
They don't want to earn money from the game,
but they want to play a game that they love.
And we were representing our alpha version
And when people saw our game on the big screen,
they waited for like 20, 25 minutes and they came to me.
Like this doesn't look like a web three game.
Web three games are not like these.
The point is the reason why web two gamers
hate web three games because they're all shitty games.
They're no good game that they can play.
They only can, they have only seen Rockpoles,
some people profiting from it
and most of the people getting lost from it.
That's the reason, that's the biggest reason
why web two gamers hate web three games.
But when you provide web three gamers
with the content they want on web three,
with ownership, with tournaments,
one with aspects of earning from the game,
I think they'll be more hyped
for web three game than a web two game.
There are so many good games out there in web two.
There's so much good content
and web three have failed to deliver that content
The reason is the gaming is very young again.
And as soon as good content,
good content of games go out there,
people will be jumping in and they won't care.
They won't care about your tokenomics.
They won't care how much they're earning.
They won't care about how much an NFT is cost.
Like NFT was created as a fundamental to store of value.
Web three games right now mince out like 100,000 NFTs
even if they have like 1,000 players.
How, what is the difference of having 10 or 100
or 1,000 NFTs with no value?
So when web three games figure out that,
okay, we have X amount of users,
we have X amount of NFTs,
we should create a proper economy between them
that the value of the NFT stays there,
then it will be valuable.
Owning an NFT is nothing,
but owning a valuable asset is something.
why people used to be very happy
when they owned in Bode Yard Club or Pagi Penguins
or any good valuable NFT out there
It's not like that's another piece
like a million out there.
So owning an NFT doesn't mean a lot.
Owning a valuable NFT that gives value to the player
The biggest value for a gamer is
that they can play with in-game item.
the gamer can flex with so many content
if he is playing a web three game.
It's just that we haven't provide the thing they want.
Oh, I don't know, I forgot a few things as well.
So I had so many things to say.
Yeah, well, there's a lot that I mean,
so you've, and I wouldn't call it exactly a pivot also.
I think you're speaking very reasonably
and thank you for being so incredibly direct and bold
and just bringing up that side of the ecosystem.
Gaius, what's on your mind?
Yeah, I totally agree with what Katana said.
So I'm in just an introduction, I'm Gaius from Foundile.
We were a gaming guild that raised in 2021,
but currently- Mr. Gaius.
Yes, yes, yes, I was giving a shout out, my boy, let's go.
So currently, we have pivoted
and we are called virtual protocol.
We are building in the intersection of AI and gaming,
but I'm not gonna bore everyone with this.
just go to my profile and click virtual IO.
All right, so I wanna side to a back, right?
Is blockchain gaming bad or has it never left?
So for me, blockchain gaming has never left.
So I was in the era of web tree gaming
during XE Infinity and Gala games,
which is like more than two years ago.
So for me, how the web tree gaming start is that
a lot of projects started off trying to raise
So I understand the crypto community is all about making money.
So they invest their money into games via NFT
or token presales, right?
So the community has provided funds for gaming projects
to build games with web tree technology.
And then their job is to onboard web two gamers
to explore what web tree can offer.
And in the previous cycle, there were two actors, right?
One is the crypto community that were not patient.
And then they are the gaming projects that are bad actors.
So one is that they did not do their due diligence.
They just de-gen into every single gaming project
that they can see that is hyped up by like KOLs
and everything on the crypto teeter list, right?
And then there are games that took the money
and then they actually don't know how to build game.
They just wanted to extract liquidity, right?
So I think one very good example is Pixelmon, right?
They raised 70 million just via NFT sales, right?
And then the founder, you know, couldn't be a good game.
And then the visuals were bad.
And then Gullio from Zalora took over Pixelmon.
And let's see what happened after that, right?
The community that believe in Gullio
is reaping the benefits now, right?
If they stick the Pixelmon,
they're gonna get tokens in return, you know, serums,
which brings a lot of value to the holders.
And then Pixelmon has the time to build.
Yeah, so I think we can see that a few projects
have started, you know, to emerge again.
And another game that I wanna shout out to is Cypher.
I'm not sure whether you guys have heard about them.
I think they raised about 24 million NFT,
They recently came out with a game.
I played their closed alpha.
It is literally like a Web2 game, right?
There is enough content for people to play.
And then, you know, if you wanna progress more,
you gotta spend, or you grind your time out of it
to explore more contents.
And, you know, I think web previews will also play
an important role in the coming cycle, right?
They will be the one to help
with the cold start problem of games, right?
Let's take Pixels, for example, on the running network.
You know, the biggest deal is YGG, and they're still here,
and they still have a very strong user base.
So imagine that most Web2 games,
when they wanna start their game, right,
they have to pay a lot of advertisement and stuff like that.
But now they can just approach YGG, you know,
ask them, you know, how they can work together
and they can onboard mass users at the start.
And then the game have to find a way
to onboard the Web2 users,
because they already have a player base, right?
So they just need to bring in more Web2 users,
and then, you know, things will kickstart very fast.
Yeah, so I think, what else am I gonna say?
Because there was so much that I talked about.
I think, like, Katana, you know,
I couldn't remember what else I wanted to say.
But, yeah, I think, and also,
echoing Edni, Satya, and Chen GPT, right?
They're seeing more, their committee willing to invest
into gaming projects recently
because of the gaming bull run that has happened.
And I also see it in community,
like, I'm in Neo Tokyo, I'm in art community.
We had so many core investments rounds, right?
One of them was Pixelmon.
I think in Neo Tokyo, we had a lot blood loop game,
track now notes, you know,
there's just so much going on behind the scene.
I think for advice for those who are still looking to invest,
you know, into games, please do your due diligence,
you know, look at who are the founders?
Do they have experience building games previously, right?
Or they are just a region trying to extract liquidity.
So I think now a lot of invest,
I mean, retail investors are more careful now.
That's why they also join certain communities
so that people like me inside,
we can give our valuable feedback to them
to know like which project is good to invest, right?
It's not financial advice,
I'm just giving my opinion, you know,
in this kind of community.
But yeah, yeah, that's all I wanna say.
Thank you for inviting me.
Pretty, pretty incredible.
Yeah, so just to, oh, sorry, sorry,
just to get a broader aspect,
because he's so humble, so humble, oh my God.
So I just recently met Gaius, I knew his co-founder.
We actually helped Pathdao raise
in the beginning setups campaigns, KOL campaigns,
I was part of building their community at a mass scale.
So just to give you an aspect,
Pathdao was what I consider an aggregator of guilds.
So if someone knew of the gaming system
that crypto has built, these guys, you know,
they, you know, after they aggregated them all,
they knew what was going on, right?
Cause it's all the guilds,
the guilds that they have that they had under their belt
as just, you know, they knew them all,
that it was just said that there pretty much wasn't a guild
that either wasn't involved with the Pathdao system
or they were, you know, they knew of them
and they were about to come on the Pathdao system
cause it made sense for them.
So that was, they were a massive aggregator.
So from that level of where they saw this direction,
I believe from what we talked this morning,
you guys have now pivoted into the AI gaming field.
So mind you, these guys saw it all.
but I'm going to be very, very, very open.
So they see a need now for automation
So wow, this is pretty, this is a good treat, man.
It's nice to definitely rekindle back
and seeing you guys here.
And yeah, this has been pretty awesome guys.
I mean, I always like to add on that
even though we have pivoted to AI gaming,
the gaming guild and also our esports team is still around.
We have not given up the model
cause we believe that the gaming guild and esports team
will be the one that move forward
in the web pre-gaming space to phase two.
Phase one is when you have all these de-gen,
minting NFTs, flipping the tokens and stuff like that.
Phase two is when you onboard real gamers.
they're trying to onboard web two gamers
with frictionless onboarding, right?
With a click of an email, sign up in my Gmail,
you're going to create a wallet or you don't,
but they can play the game.
And then without telling them the web tree element,
they will slowly explore the game
and hopefully that they'll be touching
and they'll start to learn what is web tree
and what web tree can actually offer.
It's not just about, you know,
getting dumped on or, you know,
making profits out of it,
but it's player ownership.
And then they realize that, you know,
certain NFTs has value accrual, right?
They need to find NFTs that value accrual
Excellent points for sure.
So I'm going to jump back
before we go to the hand with Katana Yiu, with Hamza.
Marco jumped on stage before
and had a couple of hot takes.
Marco, are you still ready
with some of these knowledge nukes?
Will you drop us some knowledge?
Hey Jay, Krypto, hey Seth.
Apologies for jumping the gun, my bad.
Not very gentlemanly of an Englishman,
but I'll try and redeem myself some great takes.
I actually asked to come up
because of something that Scott said.
And Scott, I thank you for saying what you said
and keeping it very straight
because he's absolutely spot on in that.
And again, this is only from my experience.
You know, I have to give some sort of evidence,
albeit anecdotal, because I haven't gone
through all the pitch decks and kind of them up,
eight out of 10 gaming company,
pitch decks web three that I've received
do not have a game dev on it.
you know, where web three has fallen down is that,
and again, is the understanding of gaming.
So it's having those devs or those experts on your team
as opposed to just being gamers
and understanding basic game mechanics.
You know, I've, again, forgotten the amount of time
that I tried to have a conversation
with a so-called game dev and talk about game mechanics
and they have no frigging idea what I'm on about.
So, you know, you're going to fail the game straight away.
But, you know, to my point, or the reason why I raise it,
anyone in gaming knows when you build a game,
if you're a business and you're building a game,
you're not, you cannot afford to sheep dip.
You know, and what I mean by that is
you're not building a game
that everyone in the world is going to play.
You're building a game for a particular demographic
or a particular age range or a particular gender,
or you may have a mixture of them, of course,
but you're building for a subset of the population.
And the reason why I raised this point is for me,
this is the challenge that blockchain
has got to overcome fundamentally,
in that if you take, and again,
to Scott's point about mobile gaming,
and, you know, I do most of my business in the East,
so I know how big mobile gaming is,
is that the one thing that web two companies have
as an advantage over web three
is that the amount of data that they are garnering.
Now I have a portco company,
I'll give it as an example,
that knows from the data from people playing the game
they know that their target audience
is 16 to 18 year old American girls.
Now with that, they can iterate their game
to that particular demographic.
So they build it, they're iterating,
they're enhancing it, they're advancing it
with that particular demographic in mind,
because that demographic for them,
sorry, I should have said 16 to 18 American girls,
I'm not sure if I said that.
So of course, they're making money
because they're able to tailor their game
to that particular demographic.
In blockchain, you're not able to collect that kind of data.
So it's a bit of a handicap.
And I'm not saying it can't be overcome,
but that's one of the hurdles that it needs to overcome.
So they were just my sort of thoughts
and I just wanted to give my flowers to Scott
for raising it in the first place.
Amazing, thank you so much.
And what a testament to the power of these spaces,
having so many founders together
and showing that kind of vulnerability
such that it would cause you to request speaker access,
jump up on stage, patiently wicked for all of us.
And as you said, just bring that hot take.
Thank you so much for giving that validation,
that confirmation of what's going on
Huge, Hamza, you've had your hand up again.
We got a lot of hot takes, I can't wait.
Yeah, I'm very sorry to put my hands up again.
Actually, I remembered what I wanted to say.
And I would 100% agree with what Marco said.
He's on the point like on the dot 100%,
whatever he said is correct.
The thing that I wanted to add up here is
where people like game developers,
some game developers are in illusions
that people want their game, but it's not like that.
They create illusions that there is blah, blah, blah,
which is loving or hitting blah, blah, blah
without any reason, without any loss.
So there is no need of content out there
that my content is needed to be out there.
So I don't know if I'm saying it correctly or not,
but there is no need of like the game
we are building Katana, you know,
but we are building it for ourselves.
So we have to build it that people wanted to play.
We can't give up, we can't build whatever only we like
and give it out to people.
Why would anybody play when they have so much other games?
All the time, I asked game developers
whenever I'm talking with some game developers,
I always ask them, why a person plays a game?
Why do a person plays any game in the first hand?
Like, why would I play a game?
because I'm bored of my current environment
and I want to interact with another environment.
So the environment that I'm interacting with
should be good enough and should be valuable enough
that I can spend my time, money on that environment.
So that's also something that is like big missing,
pretty much missing out there.
You know, I have like reviewed the GTA games.
I've done so much research on GTA only, on Rockstar Games.
You know why they're so successful?
They're so successful because their market research
They have such a good market research
that whatever they do hits up in the market.
So it's not about what you want to build,
it's about what people want to play.
And that's the thing all when it comes to gaming.
So getting that, essentially, I mean,
it's, I think what I'm hearing you describe
is the sort of permission based
and user centered, user centered design,
but also essentially getting permission
from this audience to do business with them,
essentially getting permission from them
to build in the direction that you maybe had initially
just had a hunch you wanted to build in,
but getting that confirmation from the community,
from the people that will be building up your community
and will be supporting you 18 months, two years,
five years down the line,
really trying to figure out, yeah,
that's a brilliant point.
What are you seeing are the opportunities
for Web3 gaming outfits and companies right now
to get some of that feedback
and get clearer signal to noise?
Because it seems like, especially in Web3,
because of that false start,
we've heard this a couple of times,
because of that false start of maybe not quite arriving,
maybe not quite getting it the first time around
and catering more to the one side
where the incentives are the strongest thing,
well, wherever there's financial incentive,
I'm just gonna, I'll come out and say that,
Wherever there's financial incentive,
there can be fraud, right?
Because the incentive is so strong.
So you have your script, Katie's, you have your bots.
I'm gutted that we didn't have our friend Michael Wynn
on stage because he's done a little bit of this
sort of essentially pen testing of Web3 games
to see if the game theory stands up to automation and bots.
So how do we, so we know that's an element
in a lot of the games up to this point.
How do we increase the signal and decrease the noise
when asking for community feedback
to know which direction to build?
So one thing that gets me very excited is,
is about decentralized game development.
Developing a game, however the community wants it.
Like this is something which will come later down the line.
We are not mature enough that we can create a game
and there can be so many challenges out there
when you ask the community or community is commenting
on each and everything you're developing a game.
But I think there'll be a time when we'll go over
all these challenges and we'll come up with a solution
where we can build a custom game for like your community
which your community will love to play to spread
even if there is no financial incentive out there.
About bots, I think it's a very big pain point
because there is a strong financial included in
that you can earn from the game.
And Web2 companies are also,
are not able to 100% eliminate bots.
So to be honest, there'll be bots
who will be playing your game
but you can structure your game in a way
where you do different missions or different quests
that you have to complete
and the bot would need to be much more smarter
to complete all those quests and earn from the game.
So this is something that can be done
and there are multiple companies like AWS
and other companies also provide bot protection
but still you cannot 100% eliminates the bots at all.
But we have a very great and exciting future ahead.
The future ahead for Web3 gaming is very, very bright.
Okay, so it sounds like this is just,
these are the conditions we have to build despite them.
Gaius, what's on your mind?
Yeah, so talking about bots, right?
So I don't think that anyone can 100% prevent bots.
So that's why, let's say if there's any incentives,
it should be very skill-based, right?
Like for example, esports.
If let's say it's a very grindy game, MMORPG,
only the top players with like teamwork to defeat a boss
would get a very high value item
which bots are unable to do so.
So yeah, I don't think bots,
we should move around the bot issue
instead of trying to solve it
because I don't think anyone,
any big companies are able to solve the bot problem.
So yeah, and then in terms of like creating,
like giving the community the rights
to create a direction of how the game is supposed to be,
I think come from a dial standpoint,
realize that if there's too much voices,
So I think games should always have like a main game
and then you allow users or communities
to build games on top of the game.
Like what Fortnite is doing, right?
They have Fortnite as a main game,
but they have UAFN for creators
to build their own game for their own community, right?
So I think like that there's so much sandbox game,
metaverse games, but there is no main game
and we can't expect the current web3 gaming community
to actually create a good game to attract users.
So they always must have a very main game, yeah.
100% also GTA allows you to build different mods
Tournaments can be a very essential part
where web3 games can like incentivize players
and they can have like a global tournament on chain,
the best tournaments can happen in the world.
And I'm sure like games would take advantage
for that in future for sure, 100%.
Awesome, and you mentioned that the bot issue is here
and with the comment from before,
I didn't mean to say that there was a way
to get rid of automation or bots, of course.
Of course, they're a permanent fixture now forever.
Genie's out of the bottle, Pandora's box is open.
Use whatever example you'd like to,
but we know that's a force in the ecosystem.
The question before was more about
with that as a primitive of this ecosystem,
just knowing there will be bots.
How do you still get rid of the false positives
when you're attempting to roll out new functionality
or when you're attempting to shift the roadmap
or you're committing to the community
that you will make a firm decision?
How do we make sure that we're not suffering
from the abuse of dino, right?
The dino phenomenon, decentralized in name only
or essentially terror by committee, right?
So having an extremely vocal minority of the community
But yeah, we can move on from there.
I see Marco has his hand up.
If you have that response to this, great.
If you want to bring something else in the thoughts.
Yes, Seth, I might have an answer to it.
And I apologize beforehand, it might be a contentious answer.
And again, it goes back to the point about the East.
The rise of, let's call it web three in the East.
But I think it epitomizes my point perfectly
in that the culture towards gaming in the East
is very, very different than in the West.
And I think guys, from your accent I'm guessing
is very, very different in you Katana as well.
And I think the challenge we have in the West,
the culture is flawed, I'm sorry.
The mindset is even flawed.
Because in the West, it's all about making a buck, right?
Flip, let's flip it, how can we flip it?
So we have this culture in web three, how do we flip?
That culture is not the same in the East.
So the answer I have, my contentious point is,
you don't mark, if you're in the West
and you're building a web three game,
you don't market to web three people.
You market it to web two,
and it's that age old thing, and we all know this,
but not telling them that it's blockchain
Because at the end of the day also,
from a business model perspective,
all the gamers, the majority of the gamers,
95, 100, 99% of gamers are in web two.
They're not in web three.
So why even go to that smaller market?
We talk about total addressable market.
Well, you have just shut that down
to a finite percentage if you're marketing to web three.
you can do, and you bring them in that way
as opposed to marketing to web three specific
and change the culture, change the mindset.
So the fault is not in our stars.
Absolutely love that take.
because we're the ones doing the investing, right?
But yeah, no, no, we're all part to it, right?
We get caught in the hype, not so much.
I mean, I'm not a FOMO trader investor by any means,
but you still get kind of caught up into the genre of,
for example, 2021, right?
The most horrific cash grab of them all.
the vetting of this going forward,
because you guys spoke about the botting and stuff,
but isn't that how web two gets their success, right?
They bought the hell out of the downloads
There's prominent circles of
these bot farms in the Middle East
and very heavy and they're used by,
but a lot of these web two games to gain.
Now, obviously they have to try
to gain market share somehow,
but I don't really catch the frowned upon
kind of vibe on the web two side,
Right here, we're like, what the hell?
No, that's not allowed here.
But it's kind of a common concept to use in web two, right?
And especially, you know, I mean,
Apple and I think we've talked about this here and I said,
Apple not publishing, you know,
how many downloads a person has, you know,
a person can just, you know, fake their stuff
and they'll put it on their summary.
But, you know, that what you can kind of gauge it on
is how many reviews they have.
Well, those reviews, unfortunately,
they're from these bot farms in the Middle East.
So if you look at something like that,
we're really doing a due diligence
by not doing what they're doing.
I mean, it's again, it's one of those things that,
you know, we are setting a trend here,
but it's, you know, I don't know,
different viewpoints of how we are different
from web two and web three.
But yeah, anyways, but Seth,
I didn't know if you had another point on that.
My little rant just kind of had a, you know,
kind of speaking out loud,
if there's any other viewpoints on that,
but I did want to introduce a big time warrior.
They are, I believe, a big time guild on big time.
We're playing big time as we speak.
Oh, you got to keep on, hey, listen,
you got to play with the piece, man.
You got to show your lead leader.
If your guild members aren't playing,
then something's going on.
I was just having a chat with Scott Herman,
and I said, right, I'm going to bed.
And then I stupidly opened Twitter
and then saw Scott was in a, like an AMA,
I was like, oh, what's this?
So let me, let me ask you this.
How big is your, is your guild?
Cause we have Gaius from Pathdow,
which I think, so big time I believe was created after
they pivoted their, their aggregation of, of all the guilds.
But, you know, talk to about, about your guys, your size.
Cause I went on through your website.
I saw some pretty notable partners and that kind of deal.
So it intrigued me on, on, on definitely,
I wanted to bring you up, so.
So we have just over 3,300 members.
Right now we're, we're sort of only involved with big time.
started branching out into some other titles that aren't released yet.
Like Wag Me, Fantastic Gab, I'm very excited for the future of it.
Bigger up Scott Herman, my man.
Reign of Terror is another one.
Desolation, I'm looking into Alluvium, Star Atlas.
So these are some of the titles that are sort of on my on my sort of.
Must scan at the moment, if you will.
And, and to mind you, you, you, so these, these are, you are farming like, like
the OG guilds and how YGG does it, that kind of deal where you're farming the
native token or their NFTs, right?
So my members do, my members they're big into the grinding of
dungeons and farming the token.
But I myself am a, one of the largest holders.
Well, I might actually be the largest holder of time wardens in big time.
I currently hold seven hundred and, I was looking at my list here.
746 time wardens, which to my understanding, I don't think anyone owns that many.
I know one of the largest way, one of the largest way was wild to shark.
I think he owns about 350.
So, but, but I've been involved with big time from the get go.
So I was buying time wardens when they were.
Or they're worth about eight to $10 and people were throwing them away saying they
were trash and I was quietly, quietly, quietly picking them up.
10 here, five there, 20 here, 10 there at eight to $10.
And they're now worth $750 each.
So that's like a 75X, which is insane.
And, and I, I rent those out every month on the rental market on big time,
No, that's pretty awesome, dude.
So, so you've, so this guild, you created it just for big time in the beginning.
And you're branching off now, huh?
So, so what, so what's your viewpoint?
I mean, since you're expanding, you're, you're, are you seeing an uptick in,
in, in what, obviously you mentioned some very OG games and, and kind of
larger scale games, are you, are you, are you seeing an uptick on, on, on more
interest on say newer games outside of course, you know, your big time that you
Like, I go back to who was, I was talking earlier, the English gentleman.
Um, he had a brilliant point.
Uh, and I totally agreed with where he said, um, you shouldn't be advertising
to web three gamers, you should be advertising to web two.
So what I do is I go onto Twitch and I look for streamers and I look for web
two streamers, not web three streamers, because it's a market that needs to
be bridged and at the moment, like when I talk to people, I, I totally leave
out the word NFT because the minute I mentioned that word, they freak out
and think I'm trying to scam them.
So, um, what I have learned to say and sort of integrate into the conversation
is that they are, is a digital collectible and it's an asset.
And who doesn't want to own the assets?
Like you have players that play games like, um, Fortnite or, um,
or a Warcraft or cod, you know, these players, they, they, they buy skins in
the game, but those skins are then kind of locked into those games.
They can't trade them between their mates or they can't give them to their mates
for free to help them start the game.
Where all this brand new, fantastic technology that's coming out in, um, web
three and NFT gaming, you can do that.
Um, and obviously you can own your digital assets.
Um, so, you know, you might play the game for two months and decide, you know,
I don't want to play this game anymore.
Well, you can just put it all on the marketplace and sell it off and then
move on to the next game that you want to play.
Yeah, no, there's, um, there, there is that sort of almost, you know, you
might call it a kind of old school or kind of carpet bagger mentality, right?
Of, uh, just, of just shifting from, from one area to the next and, and, uh,
almost like a hoard of locusts, right?
What value can we take and then move on?
And we've seen that a lot in big time early on, um, especially when
the first space drop happened, the first space sale, um, the exalted
spaces, which is the highest tier of space in big time, um, they were
selling in the first initial space sale.
They sold for, I think it was about three and a half grand, a US, if I'm correct.
Um, and in 48 hours, I personally watched them go up to about 35,000 US,
maybe a little bit higher, maybe 38,000, somewhere around there.
Um, and people were just flipping, you know, that's, it was a quick 10 X.
Um, and people were selling it.
And then obviously, you know, people were, as I do, um, you know,
fomoing and, um, buying, I know one guy that, um, brought, uh, exalted
large space at 18,000 US dollars and then they dropped, um, they just
dropped and continued to drop and continue to drop, um, I think the lowest
they got to was about 1500 US, 1500 US dollars.
They've gone back up now because big time is starting to release new content.
Um, their economy has launched.
Um, they're bringing out things like guild mechanics soon.
Um, they're bringing out female characters soon.
Um, they're bringing out, you know, a bunch of other stuff.
Um, and a lot of people are very excited about the future of big time.
Um, and, and yeah, so it's, it's interesting days ahead.
Hey, so we're, we've got a couple of requests to come up on stage.
It looks like we're going to taper off the space and maybe end
just after the top of the hour.
But, uh, but I see the speaker requests.
We're trying to bring you up, uh, Ryan ever CEO and co-founder of, uh, of Brin infinite.
We're trying to get you on stage as fast as we can, but appreciate, he's on stage.
So we've got a, we've got a macro theme here of blockchain gaming.
And, uh, we made the joke earlier on, like, don't call it a comeback, but is it
I mean, no, no, I don't know.
How do you frame it yourself?
Are we coming back or, or, or are we, uh, or it was never here.
That's the, no, wait, that, that was the other theme, right?
Seth, it was never here, they know.
So kinda, you know, kind of see, see where everyone's viewpoint is that,
but welcome, welcome, Ryan.
Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great, by the way, uh, film, you were never here.
In the, in the film, just wanted to say, if you ever wanted to see a bunch of
bad guys get taken out with hammers, that that's your flick.
Wait, we absolutely never left.
I'll tell you outright, I've been in gaming for the majority of my adult life
and web three at the same time.
And the, the goals and the demand for what we've all been building in the web
three gaming space has only multiplied by, by many magnitudes.
And I can tell you personally from the stance of our game studio, we've
never had faster user growth and larger traction.
We've broken 150,000 users between all of our games.
We do about 3000 matches a game in our, our PC downloadable client, 20
something thousand monthly actives on our web GL product, web three
gaming has never been hotter.
It's never been more tangible to the user and adoption.
Well, we'll never see more people adopt this than we will over the next 365 days.
And I'm willing to bet on that.
We need one of those, we will, those Twitter bots that's remind me in, in
X months about Ryan's Ryan's deal here.
And then we need some kind of escrow.
We also need to take her though.
Jay, you take her, you can take that bet.
Um, so, so on, on the other note, so Ryan, so we say never left.
So, so, so talk to us about, um, about Brinfinite.
What you guys got going on.
Br1infinite's the biggest game you've ever won.
We, we've been building for two years and we built on the premise of building
tangible value for the time gamers spend in games for a downloadable PC
client that was live and playable in January of 2022 and our game, all
of our games have one common theme.
You put up real money to play.
And for every player that you eliminate, you earn real money.
We have two games, one's called Br1infinite.
The other one's called mini arena.
And in Br1, you have a free server, a 10 cent server, $1 private matches.
And using the $1 game mode as the example, you deposit real funds, debit
credit, or crypto, we show you US dollars.
You pay $1 to spawn into the server.
And for every player you kill, you earn a dollar.
And I take a percentage of player earnings.
If you maintain a positive KD, you make a lot more than minimum wage.
There's a free to play journey where you play for free.
You level up your user profile.
You get a bit of USBC experience or items as those rewards.
I onboard users in a web two format, email, password, download, play.
Users accrue funds and items.
They don't even realize they script own NFTs.
And when they finally go to withdraw their, their money, it says, do you
want to withdraw with Fiat and experience up to 15% in fees or crypto
where you have 5% in fees?
And then when you click on crypto, you have a handful of options.
Solana, Aptos, Ethereum, and using Aptos as the example, or Solana
as the example, it says one minute wait, 0.5% fee.
And if you cash out this option right now, you get an exclusive weapon skin.
The user is motivated to click on this crypto option.
They have a one click social off.
They make public address.
They don't even realize it and boom, they just became a first time crypto user.
We like to say, we acquire users like a web two gaming company and we monetize
like a web three gambling company.
And thus far it has been a very successful pursuit.
We did a go to market in Brazil in last year in each alive and well over
a hundred thousand gamers as described.
And thank you for, thank you for catching us live here.
We didn't have you on the invite list, but that mistake will not happen twice.
Ryan, thanks so much for sharing with us, man.
Excited to see you boys in the next one as well.
Definitely appreciate that.
I, um, I went ahead and, uh, I didn't follow you before.
Like, you know, my friend like your energy.
Oh yeah, we have a couple.
Oh, we're doing it again.
We know we complete each other's sentences.
We're completing each other's sentences.
I'm actually hugging Seth right now.
He's, uh, he's on my chest.
So, so please let's go and it's, it's okay.
Jay, Jay, Jay likes being little spoon, but we, we get, we make it work.
Uh, I think Marco challenged our manners across the, I think Marco actually
challenged our manners as Americans.
So we're, we're trying to be too polite now.
But no, we have a couple of hands up.
Uh, I wanted to have to introduce, uh, BSCN gaming and we have, uh, looks
like we have taco here, sir.
And that's a, this is a first welcome taco.
Uh, was that for BSCN network to go first or me?
I, I'm that was for taco.
Yes, it's, you know, it's kind of open forum politeness, you know,
whoever, you know, BSCN, if you, if you want to head up or taco.
Hey, tacos are delicious.
I'm going to insist taco goes first.
Hey, it is Tuesday, right?
Or do I stay up too late playing BR one and if you stayed up, they
just, I think the day's bled together.
No, uh, this is a great space.
So huge shout out and all the flowers, you know, uh, to Moby J.
Crypto and Seth and, uh, uh, get the, you know, I've been BR one.
How I learned about BR one.
I was at the Solana hacker house in New York, middle of last year.
Uh, Evan had his laptop opening.
He just had the promo for BR one playing on his laptop.
Like he walked away to go to like the bathroom or something like that.
And I just sat there in a conversation with a VC and I like was trying
to help connect with a project.
And then like he literally, he was like, Hey, what's going on?
Like, cause I, like, was, I tuned out of the conversation.
I was just sitting there watching the promo video play over and over.
I wrote on a sticky note.
I don't know who you are or where you're at, but when you come back, here's my
cell phone number and like my telegram or something like that.
And I left it as a sticky note.
And then like, he, like right as I was leaving it, he showed up and got to
connect with the BR one team.
Um, and so, and then quickly got into, into playing and stuff.
And it's been amazing, but how accessible the team is to just random people's
questions, I don't know if Ryan mentioned it, but it is free to play.
But even if you're losing, if you have a good kill rate, they got a daily
weekly and monthly, uh, kill fest.
Um, that, Hey, I like to view myself as a play to earn exit liquidity for people.
But, uh, I'm actually up just because I go and play, you know, 30 minutes
there, half hour, hour here or there.
Um, just because I, I, I have a big kill ratio.
My number one complaint about BR one from beta to where they are now is, uh, used
to have infinite amount of rocket launch shots.
Now you only get two and I am surgical with my rocket launcher shots.
And now I only get two shots.
Um, but, uh, you know, we do everything from like videos with like
Doug, and, uh, having banjo kill fests, which is pretty cool.
The players are great and, uh, awesome to see Scott up here as well.
So yeah, yeah, taco, apart from the, from the, the, the soft hard
chill on, on, um, let's, let's, let's go back.
Cause obviously you've been in this space for quite a while.
Um, you know, 2021 we had gaming season bear market, which I
think gaming, I think the games were responsible for Luna's collapse and
FTX as well, I'm just kidding.
Um, but you know, the, the, the gaming season happened.
Then we have this lovely, um, I let's call it, let's call it for what
it is, the build phase, right?
Cause that's obviously bear market, build bull market by themselves.
So yeah, so, so, so, so talk to us from, from, from that viewpoint,
from that to here, cause our, our, here's our topic, right?
Is blockchain back or has it never left or did it ever happen?
What, what's, what's your stance on that dude?
I mean, outside of, of course, let's leave, let's, let's just go from,
from more from a macro viewpoint.
I'm concerned, um, um, I don't think I don't think it's left.
Um, I think sometimes for a minute, people got bogged down in making
these really long played out games and approaching web two gamers, what the
next, the next target audience, I think will be like the soccer moms.
Um, you know, the ones, the people that want to play three minutes at a time.
And by having to continuously load in wallets and, and, you know, everything
transactional, that's going to get overburdened burden for a lot of players
and a lot of new people coming on.
Um, but I don't think it's ever gone away.
Um, what's really cool is now that people are coming back, these games
that have been building are finally like, you know, shouting from the rooftops.
We've been here or here we are, but they've actually just been there.
Um, I, I will, I will be really excited to see like, so my gaming, you know,
I worked with, I worked for supercell.
Um, so I have a huge history in the gaming industry.
I've helped startup gaming companies.
Um, that's what I wanted to hear.
Um, so I have this experience, but it's one of those things to where, um,
I have seen the dumbest things kill games that like the coolest games, but they
spent more on development than they did on marketing.
And then I've seen games that spent more on marketing than they did on development.
And I think right now we're finally having, um, equilibrium finding that balance.
Um, and, uh, so it'll be really cool to see, um, you know, when game
companies show up at blockchain conferences and like have full on demos out.
I think that that is what's real.
That's what's really driving.
I, uh, at consensus last year, I was with a city bank, uh, executive from
their digital asset side of things.
He was, he was there playing shrapnel at, you know, and tried it out.
And I think that that's one of the coolest things ever.
And that's gonna, that's, that's gonna like, he'll tell his kid up.
He might tell his kid about it and that's what's, that's what's going to happen.
That's how we're going to bring on more people, making it so anyone wants to
play and can play and making it fun.
So, so taco talk, talk to us a little bit about, cause I, I was, um, I, I, at
the time when supercell sold their stake for a billion, it was, it was like the
most monumentous thing I was, I was having investments in, into equities
markets and, and, and tech and just different kind of, uh, you know,
standardized, not crypt, obviously just happened kind of wait, wait a little
bit before that, but before we, we really took off, um, can you, can you talk
to us about like, kind of like what you did there and, and, and were you
there before, um, the merger or before they sold off or, or were you,
Uh, so I was there 2015, early 2016.
Um, and so I was community, like a community dev liaison, um, talking
about different meta pieces and stuff, um, explaining user complaints
and explaining dev, dev reasoning.
Um, and so it got to be a really cool thing to just sort of see between both
sides, understand people's complaints and what they liked, but why they,
you know, different metas.
Um, and I think like that PVP side really pushed things on the, on
the biz dev side, that wasn't me.
I was, I was just the guy that got to talk to players and talk to, talk to devs.
So that, I think that that gave me a really, uh, that gave me a really
balanced approach to it because you can't have everything, you know, in a game
that you might want because then it will break other things.
And so that's the, that's the trial and error phase that a lot of people go through.
But at super sales level, at clash of clans level, that was a, like you, there
was a lot of private play testing and how they opened it up that people could
just literally download a clock, their own client of the game.
I think that was one of the coolest things that they ever did.
So you could go make armies of 10,000 troops and just go attack.
And like, you know, one, some of it got done in a way that like, you know, some
people created content to where it was like, Oh, like this is the meta army.
And you're like, you can never actually have that army, but that's still cool.
But getting to see different play styles and different techniques.
I think that was one of the really cool things they got pushed out through that.
I think it was, you know, I mean, they, I've never heard them like look at,
talk about why they did that, but I can assume that it was, if we rewind
back, if you remember doom, right?
Doom was, wasn't that like the most forked thing ever?
I mean, it was, it was absolutely amazing.
You know, recreate your own stages and it just, it was, it was super awesome.
And I'm speaking about this in current because they have a pretty awesome
documentary of the entire stage of, you know, old school gaming, which was amazing.
Some of that stuff I didn't even know went on that I was part of in
playing when I was little and I was like, Holy heck.
Yeah, but it's, you know, that, that, that was pretty, uh, pretty intense
on, on how that they allowed for those mods to happen and, and, and kind of, you
know, spearhead that, you know, supercell when, when they did that with Clash
of Clans, I thought it was genius.
They they're, they're letting people do their own thing, sandbox your own
stuff and, uh, and just create, you know, something pretty freaking massive.
And obviously it worked, right?
Cause they, they sold for a billion mobile gaming company sold for a billion.
Um, but yeah, Jack, Jack is here as well.
Taco meet Jack, Jack Taco.
This is, uh, Jack is from ton ton is, uh, now the brand new gaming company for
telegram, I'm kidding on that not gaming company, but you know, they, they are
supporting, um, they are supporting gaming on telegram.
So these, uh, these UI clients that, um, and we talked, uh, in, in a lot of the
backend, Jack, uh, and he showed me a couple of things too, about different
clients that just pop up on your mobile phone and you don't have to do anything.
Why are you just in telegram?
You can spark up a casino, spark up a game.
Um, I believe the, the, the, the game that, um, he's currently, um, you
know, uh, super spearheading is the, um, is the not coin, which is, I mean,
it grows, I mean, they literally have to do no marketing and then they're
growing a million users per week.
So that's, uh, that's pretty awesome.
Yeah, just, just to clarify, I'm not, I'm not spearheading not
corn, I'm just a big fan.
And you're a spear, the spearhead.
I didn't hear about until you gave it to me, let's go.
And for my sins, I'm now a massive not coin whale as well.
So, um, uh, I, I get to use the official channels, the ton channels to, to
show my referral link, which is pretty cool.
Um, but I'll be donating all of my not coin back to the Tom community.
So don't worry about that in the end, but yeah, the, the, to talk about telegram,
the telegram, the whole mini apps platform is very, very cool.
Yeah, so, yeah, so the mini apps platform in telegram, not many people actually
know about it, which is the crazy thing.
Um, it effectively allows you to build like a full fledged application in
telegram that no one has to download.
It's literally one tap onboarding from a telegram chat to the application.
Um, which is incredible in and of itself, but now with ton, we have this web
three integration into those apps.
So, uh, so you can, you can sign transactions, you can connect your
wallet to applications all without ever leaving telegram.
Um, and that's actually really now contributing to a lot of game five
growth on ton because obviously these, these games are seeing the amount
of users on, on telegram.
They can use the native viral mechanics in telegram, and then now they can
actually take payments in crypto and have their users not even ever leave
telegram platform to use and pay for things within in their game.
So it's, it's just this really like neat, neat, awesome user experience.
Um, and yeah, as you say, not coins, not coins really taken off.
It's, it's a 18.8 million users have played since New Year's Eve.
Uh, and if you can, you can, anyone here can check out not code or in is the website.
Um, 9 trillion not coins have been mined so far, no token as yet, but the, the
whole, the team and not going, they, they say, you know, there's probably nothing.
Which means might be amazing.
It's it might be something it might not be, but it's probably nothing.
The white paper is like 10 pages and it's just white paper.
But yeah, good to be here.
Hey, what we, it's so, so glad you could make it back into, into the space.
We, uh, and, and add a little more texture.
We got the, uh, we got the BSCN gaming account with your hand up.
We, uh, we introduced Taco, but we did not have the BSCN gaming network, right?
And what do you think of the, the macro topic, right?
Macro theme of blockchain gaming.
Is it a never arrived or is it something else?
Hey, what is our great space?
I'm so jealous to not hop on earlier.
We had a lot of awesome guests up here and, uh, the two co-hosts an absolute
house and fire, uh, this is such a big topic, my opinion, humble opinion.
Uh, we've just recognized it for what it is and finally given it
day, uh, the attention it deserves.
And that goes for an awful lot of founders and builders in the space too.
So if you, if you look at just some of the most talked about successes today,
they've been here for years, some of them, uh, even before the previous bull market
began, like in the depths of the previous, previous bear, that's when some of these
games and founders were building.
Uh, so in my humble opinion, it's never left.
We've just recognized it for what it is.
And now we're paying some serious attention to it, which is great.
Uh, that sort of also lines in with the investment in the space.
So if you look at the last two years of just VC investment, some $2.4 billion has
been allocated into gaming alone.
That's not including, uh, money from retail investors, which wasn't
accounted for in those figures.
So that's people like you and me that we're financing the seed rounds
and some of these startups.
Uh, and all of that is going to begin to come to fruition.
Um, but really what prompted me to top on stage was, um, a comment you made.
And I think it deserves a lot more attention.
Probably you're showing us all right.
You talked about, um, Apple, uh, and figures from the web to space, how, uh,
an awful lot of them or some of them are bought farmed or engagement
from this entity, but I just thought I'd open that up a little bit more.
So, um, you have what's known as good hot floor when a figure or a metric
becomes, uh, an area of focus, it simply becomes attacked and
So it no longer becomes a good metric to look at.
So if I was to give a Twitter example, it's likes, retweets and comments,
how we might see them as a, um, as a tool for being a successful or viral post.
Well, that just means that a lot of people now we have to bought fun
that, uh, pay for pay for likes, retweets and all the rest.
So that metric no longer looks, uh, or no longer, uh, remains a good
metric to look at, uh, and you have this in the gaming space.
You have this in the app world.
So essentially there are an awful lot of services out there that can offer
hundreds of thousands of downloads on your product or your game or your app
in the app store or loads of votes and, uh, likes and comments with that app.
Um, and it's something that overinflates or gives it a false image
of how a game or an app looks.
It goes a lot worse than that.
Also, unfortunately, it's an unspoken truth, but it exists in the web three space two.
So a lot of my career in the blockchain space goes back to 2016.
And I was privy to an awful lot of these conversations happening with layer ones
and layer twos at the C suite level back then, uh, especially with like
chains and protocols that were cheap, had really low gas fees or no gas fees.
It's very easy to inflate user figure daily after wallets, even TVL to a
certain extent, depending how they want to measure it, they can overinflate that.
Uh, I think it's, uh, it's something we don't talk about enough in this space.
We essentially, we should just keep our guard up and we look at an awful lot of
these figures, um, cause part of my job here in the research space in the
gaming industry is to just be aware that this is a thing and it does happen.
It's the same way in Twitter where we have this, um, secondary sense that hang
take that into consideration.
When I see a viral post, we need to look at a lot of these games and
protocols and chains with that same lens.
Not all of them are guilty, but most of them probably are to some degree.
It just the nature of the industry.
Uh, I'll stop there before I go on too much of a rant.
And definitely appreciate you bringing up that, that aspect, right?
This is, this is a multifaceted thing and it can be viewed from so many
perspectives and that's an incredibly valuable one, uh, that, that, yeah,
there, there's some things we can't always believe our eyes.
We, we oftentimes we have to go into deeper discovery and do much deeper due
diligence to make sure that we are aligning ourselves with projects that
are creating what they purport to create.
And, um, and yeah, and have the ethos and, uh, and all of the other, the
other cultural components that we would want to be aligned with.
Sometimes that's just not obvious at the surface.
We really have to dig Marco and then taco.
Um, first of all, uh, I just come up to make an observation.
Um, uh, you know, the old adage, you snooze, you lose my dear friend.
Um, so, you know, that's what I'm going to say.
And then, uh, secondly, to your name, mindless, uh, Jack, I absolutely
hate you, um, in the words of, um, uh, Liam Neeson, I will find you.
I have wasted half an hour of my life on bloody not coin.
Uh, but no, in all seriousness, thanks, Jack.
I think, I think one of my takeaways is that we got, we got a few good
blokes on stage who apparently don't mind the British guy.
He's got a, he's got years of repression from not being rude.
So he has to be rude sometimes.
So, so my, yeah, no, bless not coin for not for making them a big thing.
You know, crazy, crazy, stupid game anyways.
So, you know, there's a few of them like that in, uh, in, in the web two world
that you just, you know, you're just there and you just kind of like, whatever.
Next thing you know, three hours pass.
You're like, what the hell just happened?
Well, now you can do that with telegram and soft shield, hard shield.
And, um, and you know, he earns a not coin.
You know, you might, you might be hating on it now, but give it a few months and we
might see some, something happen where you could add some, and something from
it, you know, you never know.
I would keep dedicating your time, Marco, and just, uh, just, uh, stay humble.
One day, listen, Marco, one day it'll pay you back.
You may lose your wife, you may lose your kids, but it's okay.
You know, one day it'll pay you back, buddy.
Let's go buy everything new all over again.
I'm actually wondering if I've got more chance to Jake, uh, Jack's point.
I'm wondering if I've got more chance to make some money than some of the
port codes that I've invested in.
That's what I'm thinking.
Oh, you know, that's great, dude.
Now, a Mark, I wanted to ask you cause, um, the last game fight space, we, we
had, uh, the, the blessing of, of having, uh, and it's funny cause I just see
your, um, uh, your profile and, and, and, and heard that, you know, you're
into the funding because of that.
We heard our viewpoint from Hessen Kim, who's the head of growth for
Republic Crypto, obviously their, um, uh, sister arm of, uh, master, um,
firm, uh, or the parent company in public.
So curious to you, are you just into game fly or, or do you do a lot of others?
Are you diversified into, into different sectors of crypto and even tech or
whatever, just kind of trying to get a grasp on it?
So my thesis, uh, so for the last six years, uh, so first of all, as, um,
chief executive of a family office and now my own fund, uh, my thesis has been
very clear, it is ed tech, the future of work, uh, and emerging technologies
So I came into, so I've been into blockchain since 2019 as an investment.
So we even did a smart contract as a family office back in 2019.
Um, I'm happy to sort of share or keep, I'll keep it tight.
Um, so we wanted to co-invest or somebody wanted to co-invest with us into, uh,
this was actually a retail deal, retail investment deal.
Um, and they, uh, ironically a billionaire, but they had no fluid cash.
Uh, but what they did have, uh, you won't be surprised to hear that, but
there you go, uh, but what they did have is they had a horse stud and this horse
stud was worth billions and billions, of course, or no, no, that's unfair.
Hundreds of millions of dollars.
Cause you've got, um, uh, pedigree horses that you put out to start.
Uh, so we used a smart contract to leverage.
I can't remember how much it was.
I want to say $30 million.
I think it was for this co-investment.
So we used a smart contract to utilize 30 million of his horse stud
asset, uh, of which we then, um, invested the hard cash on his behalf with the
backing of the smart contract, if it all went or if he defaulted, um, and that
was back in 2019 and that opened my eyes to blockchain.
I've just now been waiting for the technology to, to catch up.
Um, and I came here into X web three, August of 2022, um, gaming.
Uh, so I do invest into gaming.
I own a share in the e-sports company, a part share in the e-sports company.
So I've been very, very bullish of gaming.
Um, but I'll be brutally honest, Jay crypto and some of, some of my friends,
I'll say friends, friends here.
No, I have struggled to find good investments via X.
Let's say X web three outside of X web three.
Oh, you know, I say this is where the real innovation is happening.
This is where the needle is being moved is moving forward.
Um, and I've not seen it on X web three, albeit what I will say since probably
around about November of last year, I'm now starting to see some
innovation via this platform.
Um, so, you know, I'm not being a Debbie down across the piece.
It's taken, it's taken over a year for me to see the needle being pushed forward,
but I am now starting to see it.
And I wonder Jay crypto, if the reason for that is it goes back to the point
I made earlier about the culture is the culture changing in that people are
moving away from a flip mentality to, okay, what are the use cases where I'm
going to make sustainable income and sustainable profit as opposed to, you
know, making a million bucks or half a million bucks, and then, you know,
I rugged, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, on the DJ inside of things, let's say, um, you know, where people
just put smart contracts things like that, that's still, um, going on at
Um, I believe the, the, the rug rate, um, there's a, an index.
Um, I said this, um, out loud actually, cause it's a pretty heavy index for
how many smart contracts are made and how many are rugs with no LP.
Obviously the ones, even ones with LP and that kind of deal.
And it's, it's literally a 90 and the stats are real cause this, this
gentleman, um, for the Appu index, talk to him a few times, uh, the
developer of that, um, he gets his stuff from ether scan and, and, and, you
know, BSC scan all respective and yes, it's 95, 98%.
So that still exists there.
Now, if we look at, um, let's say on our level, which is, you know, the
venture side of things where, you know, there, there is notable backing,
that kind of deal, I would say right now, and this is, again, my opinion,
what, who am I, I'm just a dude on the internet with a consulting firm
that sees thousands of projects.
So on, on my, at least from, from what I've seen the bear market, um, kind
of wrecked those that aren't innovative.
And then they quickly noticed that a lot of firms did tighten up or I want to
say so much close their funds, because if we, if we look at just from raw stats,
from even 2020, late 2022 through 2023, just before we started turning, um,
there were still notable investments, you know, from funds that typically,
you know, were, you know, quote unquote closed, but they were still investing.
Um, but what were they investing in?
So that's, that's a key part, right?
I mean, they, they, I mean, sellable teams.
Um, and what it mean by that, for those of you that, um, that aren't into the,
the venture side of things, meaning that is, is the team an expert in that field
or did they work in that field that they're innovating in, right?
Games, Scott said this before, you know, Hey, I hired some bullish ass guys.
Holy hell, Scott, this is awesome.
Um, hi, I hired some bullish guys that, you know, have worked and are experts
in large scale firms, right?
And one guy brought another guy brought another guy and those guys
are innovating with Scott, right?
The same thing can be applied for blockchain, right?
When you have non-game products, right?
Where, whether it be a DeFi infrastructure, whether it be an exchange, whether it
be a trading platform, whether it be, you know, any of the other sectors
that are in crypto, right?
Well, those teams that were actually notable and vetted were kind
of getting the funding, right?
And, and those that are, that, you know, we were seeing try to, you know,
fake it till you make it kind of deal.
They, they kind of phased themselves out.
They, you know, got, I mean, the bear market killed any kind of a funding
that they would have had to fake it at a higher level.
And now that doesn't mean that it still won't exist, obviously, right?
I mean, liquidity was transferred again.
Maybe we'll start seeing at scale a little bit more of the little fakeness
and stuff, but you would like to think that some of us have grown out of, you
know, going into the, the fat and the hype and the FOMO and then missing
something where you would think, but it still happens, unfortunately.
But at least, you know, it sounds like you, you've got to have quite
of a handle on this on being reserved and, and knowing what you're looking
for, but, and, and you're seeing this innovation coming, right?
I mean, if, if they're, if, you know, if they're not well-produced, right?
Cause we're tying it back to gaming, if they're not well-produced, meaning
that they're not fun, they're not catchy.
I mean, why don't you just go start a GoFundMe page?
At least then I would have the opportunity to not expect profit, right?
So, you know, just go there, you know, why not?
Go, GoFundMe, make a crazy story and you might raise, you know,
a hundred grand for yourself, you know, instead of wasting everybody's
time and money, but you know, it, so, so now we're, we're, we're in the
sense of, we know and what we're looking for, right?
I asked before to, to a few other folks, are we, you know, looking for MVPs,
launch pads, you know, and just started, they list, Hey, we have MVP
ready investments here, you know, change UPT innovation to them as well.
So that's, that's something that, that's going to be a paradigm showing
an MVP and then in this MVP, uh, that's minimum viable product for, for
those of you, again, not in the, in the, in the venture field, that's where
you actually have a playable product in games, right?
Or if you have, uh, uh, you know, something you can play with, if it's
a wallet, you actually have the wallet that someone can touch and feel
and, you know, kind of transfer things like that, but in, in games,
it would be a game, right?
So play the game, feel, feel the, the, the frame rate, look at all the assets,
were they custom or were they stock?
Is the game just a little eight bit game?
That's a little choppy little blocky games, or is it, you know, some crazy
graphics, like, you know, like, for example, we have a taco from supercell,
you know, they, they, they upgraded, they, they, they won up their graphics.
And when they made, um, I believe, what was that?
What's the little, the, not the tower game, but the, their second
game that, that they made right after.
That, that was incredible graphics.
I mean, dude, it was, it was pretty awesome, right?
So yeah, 2d 3d stuff, you know, so that's, um, that's kind of like, you
know, in the progression of this, especially in game five, that, you
know, these little copy pastas, little, little games, I mean, and, and I
said this on, on the last basis too, as well.
I can't believe I saw a shill from someone who literally forked a game
that my daughter plays, right?
A web two game called Genshin impact, right?
I don't know if anybody have kids that, that play this stuff, her and
her entire class in school plays this, plays this game, anime game, super
popular, and they literally, if I'm looking at this gameplay, they forked
it, but it's, it's, it's literally like if they just hired someone on
fiber and said, Hey, fork this game for me.
I want to cash grab crypto.
I couldn't believe it, dude.
I mean, and, and it's, it's again, some folks are still doing it, but
they're having trouble funding, right?
Because we are kind of a little bit on the reserve side.
You know, I saw it and I was like, I'm out, dude.
I just, I can't see this thing, but, but yeah, you know, this little
bit off, off, off topic on my rant, but I hope that, you know, through
and to tie this back into it, to what we're doing, all of you, lovely
audience, bro, go look at Naka.
They have Netris, like, are you kidding me?
Netris, Netris, Netris, like, give me a break, dude.
What's, what's going on here, buddy?
Oh, first of all, the original Tetris is doing just fine on its own.
Uh, some 13 year old kids finally beat the game like two weeks ago.
Um, blue scooty was his name.
Um, ripping off old games.
Isn't the future for web three?
And then also, wait a minute, I got one for you, Scott.
I got one for you, Scott.
I'm not going to say this out loud.
There's thousands of members here.
Because listen, I got Moby behind it.
Seth is like, no, I don't care anymore.
Just like in the space, you know, all these people saying you're fucking
natural and you know, giving you their shitty workout advice.
I'm past the point where I care.
Shitty games are shitty games.
Shitty people are shitty people.
You're going to try to be a scammer.
That's why I told Ben Armstrong to the scammer to his face on the next
Tried to say that he didn't do paid chills when we had his frigging rate card.
I mean, guys, we're in a space in a world now where everyone is so fake that you
You need to get out there being nice.
Like for example, you know, people used to always say, Oh, if you don't have
anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, right?
Or, Oh, the bigger man walks away.
You know, I kind of realized at a young age that if I was getting bullied
and I was the bigger man and walked away, that bully just went and beat
the shit out of somebody else.
So I had to beat up the bullies.
That's why I got into fitness at a very young age.
Um, that's just how I live my life.
Call bullshit when you see it and just understand that people who don't
understand how the world works are going to get upset, but all the quiet
ones, which there's usually a hundred times more quiet ones, thinking and
believing the same thing that you're saying, but they're too scared to
say something, just come out and say it.
Netris is a, is a stupid rip off of Tetris.
Um, all these games are ripping off temple run and things like that.
Um, like you said, a fork of, um, Genshin impact, right?
Like we see all this stuff all the time and then you've got these
influencers like, Oh my God, this game is amazing.
Oh, it's going to be so cool.
You can play and earn and blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, you shut your mouth, bro.
You don't know what Scott, Scott, I feel attacked right now.
I feel personally attacked right now.
Next time I see you and, and then I'll tell you to pull, you know,
put your big point, big boy pants on.
Cause we're going to town.
Hey, Scott, Scott, let us not forget.
They're getting paid to say this.
So they're, they're having, they're, they're fulfilling a duty for a job.
Okay, Scott, you know, you can knock a hardworking individual
It didn't have a duty to accept.
No, is that how it works?
Bro, I just, again, I just, I don't care anymore.
You know, I want people, I want people when they see Wagby games and they
see all the cool stuff we're doing to know that we didn't bend the
knee to all these douche bags, right?
So we just did not bend the knee.
You know, we've had VCs come to us like, Hey, relaunch your token.
We're like, uh, no, that's not how building a business works.
Like, sorry for the interruption here, man.
I've got a little anecdote.
When we first met, we first met via email, right?
When I was, when I was, when I was the web three division of a billion
dollar marketing agency, um, just get that little shill in there too.
That's where, that's where I, uh, throw my spot on our, on our consulting firm.
But, uh, but when you, when you, what did you pivot to Scott?
I mean, what did you pivot to Seth?
We had to do, we had to do our own thing.
They couldn't quite move as fast as, as, as we could write in web three.
So what's the name of your company?
What's the name of your company blocks, blocks media group, obviously.
I appreciate you appreciate you plugging our company.
Um, I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna go all in on the show, but, but, uh, there
we go, but, but Scott and I met when, uh, when I was at this billion dollar
marketing agency and I had to be the gatekeeper for a top tier talent.
And I was gutted Scott, you remember the followup afterwards.
I was like, dude, I love, I actually love your project, but my opinion has
nothing to do with the corporate decisions.
And with whether or not somebody's profile channels can cover it.
It was, uh, I was very conflicted, but, um, really, really fun way to meet.
Cause I was kind of a Dick, I was like, I, I won't, I won't throw you onto the bus,
but the people that you were representing, I was like, I thought that these
douche bags covered tokens.
Like that was what they did for their job.
Why are they charging me money to have a meeting, like freaking douche bags.
But that's how we, that's how me and Seth met.
And I was a real one out of the gate and that's why we're friends.
Our wives met at cypherpunk and we had a great time.
And we moved past, here's the thing.
So we live to build another day as long as there's enough runway, right?
So all those, all these little, all those confluence of factors, they all
matter, they all add up and, uh, the thing that always pushes through though.
And you've heard me say this very publicly now about you and iron, the
thing that always, always bubbles to the surface.
They say in cream rises, but in, in any tech field or any startup field,
the cream is passion, right?
Cause, uh, you can have lean quarters, you can have flush quarters.
So you can have budgets that are awesome to try to get a marketing and PR and all
the, all the, the marcom out there to get the eyeballs.
But then in the meantime, when it's, when if you reduce down to an army of one,
do you still have it in you to shout from the rooftops alone?
And, uh, and you and I in totally did.
So like you, you will forever have my respect for that.
Cause you guys did it right, but we've got a few hands up too.
Yeah, no, I don't get tired of saying it cause you guys, you guys, uh, you
guys pulled out the hustle when, when it was lean and when it was really fucking
hard, so, so no, it's impressive.
But we have some hands up to gamer tags was brought on stage without an
introduction gamer tags, welcome.
And so, uh, I see you coming off mute a couple of times to open the jump
ahead of the hands, but let's just say hello really fast and get the hands.
So either gamer tags is rugged or I am.
I apologize if I just, if I just, uh, spoke over, you didn't mean to interrupt,
but we've got a few hands up with the, I don't, I don't hear him either, buddy.
Is anybody, anybody else hear him?
You might have to come in, like stepping down and coming back up, buddy.
I don't know if we, I don't think we can hear you.
Well, we're waiting for gamer tags.
Two things I wanted to point out that like during this last build cycle, um,
how much tech has come out that's improved the user experience on integrating
web three in, especially with like, uh, proxy wallets and the social login
aspect, I think it's made it a lot easier, um, for games to advance.
Um, I wanted to know what other companies, what other projects, what cool
tech are you guys using, um, to sort of push either the narrative or the
tech side so that people, you know, like some of the cool stuff I've seen
is like delegated contracts where some assets are on one chain while they're
also on, you know, other parts of the game are on another chain, um, using
cool tech, like either CCIP layer zero.
Um, you know, I want to, well, I want to know the tech side of the nerd
side of things that some people are building out, um, that really is
either making it easier for people to play, own their assets, um, and
control their assets, I think is, is, is one of the really cool things
because there's just a lot of neat stuff coming out.
Um, but then also I did wanted to say, I am so sorry.
I voted for your proposal, Seth, uh, on moon beam.
Oh, let's game games of wheels, right?
Here's the thing I'm not going to, I'm not going to mention any, yeah,
any dows or, or whatever else, or call any of them decentralized in name
only, but we all know this is, this is one of the influences that that's
part of our industry is that you will get.
Occasionally it looks like decentralized autonomous marketing.
It looks like decentralized autonomous organizations.
It's just a, it's a loosely decentralized token supply for voting
across a, uh, a handful of wallets, but we never know who owns those key pairs.
And when the founder's wallet, proxy wallet goes ahead and throws, you
know, $60 million worth of that certain token to every proposal to nuke it, you
know, it's kind of hard to, to help them grow, you know, I'm just saying, I'm
not naming anything out there, but that's, you know, I'm just saying.
I know, but there is a, I don't know if you guys saw, there was a new proposal
for something else that has, uh, got a really big marketing budget.
Maybe you guys could go partner up to there and be part of their marketing
Yeah, it was, it was made, it was made, it was made very clear, a clear statement
from the inside, we have a pretty deep ties to the inside that they're, they're
not going to pass any marketing.
So yeah, unfortunately, you know, matter who you team up with, we, we kind of
got that insight, um, from a couple of insiders, not just that are partial
us, but that kind of, um, yeah, it's kind of sad, but you know what?
It might be, listen, it might be a timing thing, right?
Because bear market, small run-up, you know, they maybe some, but then again,
Now that we're talking about this marketing marketing, right?
We know ton doesn't need any fantastic.
They're getting 10 billion users a day.
Um, so then we look at, I'm kidding.
I'm just joking around Jack.
Um, but if we look at, let's say, for example, um, the games that aren't
leveraging, you know, 1.6 billion user database, right?
That just, it's apically amazing, but let's look at on the PC side or even
It though, those sides are still kind of a pay to play kind of deal.
You can try to grow organically as much as you can.
Scott, I w I w I mean, you're, you're, you're literally the machine.
I call you the machine dude, because you and, and, and your team just are, are
out there every single day getting every scrap and high end market share.
You can just from up and down everywhere you go, you know, where are you seeing this?
Is it, can, can pay to play accelerate this for you or, or is it more, you
know, would you, I understand, listen, I understand grassroots and, and, and
hard work does, does pay off, but obviously hyperscaling is a different formula.
So, yeah, I mean, we've seen, we've seen some of these things get, you know,
an amazing amount of users and then it, unfortunately they die within, you
know, a few months because why, because they suck at production, they don't
know how to make something catchy, something, um, playable to, to ease to
the eyes, they, maybe they didn't use the right quote unquote focus groups.
They didn't do a lot of testing.
They don't listen to their people.
They don't implement upgrades.
They don't do bug bounties.
They don't do all this other stuff that, that, you know, all these other
big studios do with their games, but just want to hear, you know, at least,
at least I know, and I know from firsthand that you're, you know, you're,
you're out there just, you know, grinding this thing out and you amass
quite a bit of, you know, kind of notoriety on, on wagney games and yourself.
So yeah, so you're asking if there's room for pay to play, right?
Well, with, with marketing, I mean, listen, it games and, and, and not pay
to play as far as the game itself, but as far as the, the acceleration
of growth of marketing for you, you know, or for, or for any, any game,
you know, because mind you, we may have a developer down there that's listening.
No, yeah, you definitely want to, I mean, a lot of real, go ahead.
I mean, you, you definitely want to do traditional marketing.
Well, mark marketing is very important, whether you're using influencers
or you're, you're doing traditional ads.
In fact, you know, we've had our, our Google account white listed
for like the last year and a half so that we can run ads and you need
to be able to hit those traditional medias.
What's interesting about gaming though, is the ad space that's the most valuable
is going to be your creators.
It's going to be, you know, content creation.
If you think about how many times you see ads for video games, um, on TV,
it's, it's usually very little, right?
And the only ads for video games I really remember were like the
really funny, uh, call of duty ones they did with like, uh, Jonah Hill,
um, and a few other celebrities.
Cause they were just really cool and fun to watch and those things went viral.
But yeah, I mean, you should be putting a lot of time into your affiliate
marketing system, give your, give your, your creators a chance to earn a
chance to collect and a chance to interact with their communities.
And you should be really focusing on, you know, hyping up the content
that's being created for you.
Like that's a form of marketing that a lot of companies do not take, um,
enough value or don't put enough value in.
In fact, uh, crypto stash did a post two days ago and it was something along
the lines of, you know, how come I do, you know, creators do all this work to
do posts and content for brands and then brands can't even give a retweet.
And I resonate with that because I, you know, I've been a content creator
for 13 years and it's like a company will make a commercial and then pay
money to run that commercial on TV so that it gets seen, right?
But what a content creator, they just automatically assume if that creator
makes a quote unquote commercial and then posts it, you know, it's going
to get massive distribution when it should be very obvious that most of
the time when you're doing branded content, a lot of times, unless it's
a very clever, those videos might get the least views because it's
So you need to put some marketing dollars behind it to boost it, um, on
these different platforms.
And so if you are, you know, working with creators, don't think that once
you pay them their fee, it's a done deal.
You then have to go back.
You have to make sure that your community is engaging with their posts.
And then, you know, if you have the resources, put some money behind
promoting it to show, like show the world.
Like if you're hiring a creator, it's because you believe in that
creator, so you should show the world that you believe in them by
helping boost their posts and getting it out there.
So yeah, I mean, you definitely need to have a marketing budget and
you have to be smart in how you do it.
And I think in gaming specifically, um, creators is the way to go
because all you need is for your game to go viral on a streaming
platform like YouTube or Twitch or kick and you know, people are
going to want to download and play your game.
And absolutely true, right?
That, uh, it can't be overstated.
People have been chasing the, uh, trying to reach the brass ring of
pure virality, like you said, since for as long as you've been, you've
been in the game, Scott as creator, uh, which is clearly, you know,
how you, how you built that following.
So thanks for letting that out.
As far as the, the incentives lining, speaking of stash, he had an
invite stash spike, uh, Jesus.
Thanks homie for being here for a little while.
Some of the other creators.
We, uh, we did issue those invites so that you could get some
FaceTime in this space with some of the, the top creators in the
game by ecosystem, uh, have great, uh, phenomenal relationships
with them as taco can attest Scott knows too, but I see some
I want to welcome back gamer tags.
Let's let's test your mic gamer tags.
Let's see, uh, what you got testing testing.
Yeah, boy, GM, how you doing?
I was not blessed with a hand since being up here for a while had to
leave and come back, but, uh, glad I'm here.
So is blotching back or has it never left?
Well, I think that depends, um, if you're a builder or if you're waiting
for something to be built, um, if you're just a gamer, I don't think
I think people's imaginations arrived in 21.
Uh, I think we took a little retracement back from that.
I think people's imaginations are running wild and a big indicator that
tells me that we had a retracement is nobody's really talking about, um, you
know, items being playable interoperability items in playable between
games anymore, that was a big thing in 2021.
It was like, Hey, you know, we can use items and characters and different games.
Uh, but now the conversation is how about we just make a good game first
and then focus on the interoperability?
Uh, so I think we had, you know, a little bit of a grounding effect
where people were like, okay, maybe we were a little ahead of the
game with our imagination and the ecosystem adopting it so quickly.
Um, but it's just, it's just early.
Thanks so much for the hot takes.
Thank you so much for coming back up and, and, uh, and dealing
with the, the Twitter spaces issues.
We've had Fidgey on stage for a minute without saying hello Fidgey.
I'm good brother enjoying the conversation.
Um, uh, I don't know where Jay left, but, uh, good morning brother.
Uh, I wanted to say, uh, only cause it's, uh, I think a slightly different
audience, but something that has been mentioned that I can't, uh, can't be
understated, but it's been spoken about from different angles without kind
of touching directly on is the development of the NFT community, specifically
the PFP NFT community over the last two years.
And although fairly insular, uh, I think they've had a driving effect
on the understanding of identity and not necessarily interoperability,
between games, but interoperability between social platforms and kind of
seeing them as different gradations of metaverses.
Um, I think gaming was never really here.
It was always idle games, but it was still gambling.
I think we're finally transitioning from basically for the most part, purely
gambling into experience with gambling, which is pretty cool.
So I'm excited for the next phase, but I think, uh, I think any projects
that aren't, that aren't taking, they either don't have an arm into, or
aren't taking into account, uh, a deep understanding of the NFT space are
doing themselves a disservice in the long run in terms of real web, three
gaming, uh, success, there's so much asset, so many assets that have been
connected with the people that are, that are core users, at least from
a financial perspective, um, and if you don't understand that you're going
to lose that, and I think the IP is only going to increase in terms of, uh,
connecting with digital identities and the way that we operate in a digital
sphere, so, uh, I'm excited to see real web three gaming.
That's not just wallet add-ons and token distributions, but truly using
the technology in, in, in the game play, which I think we're still quite
a bit away from, but I'm going to guess Gabriel Leiden leads the way there.
Um, also we have doc guns on stage.
Doc, you kind of, kind of standing there like Hamlet's father.
Well, you know, uh, uh, somebody robbed movie media of our, or a badge
presence on the platform, so, uh, I can't change my profile picture like
I was to some of the, uh, some of my crypto face, uh, imagery, uh, really
just came up to say hi to both you and, uh, and Jay, uh, I'm in town visiting
physical and he sent me to a Russian, uh, day spot.
I'm about to have a facial.
So, uh, I'll just listen.
Scent is a very strong word.
I mean, was it, was it that he gave you or, or what happened?
No, it's a great smart yesterday.
He goes to what he comes back and complains that they're only
going to pour water on his face or some shit.
And today he goes to the one I recommended.
And the first thing he texted me, he goes, it's filled with the Russian women.
Oh, I'm trying to figure out whether or not, oh, wait a minute.
Would you want to know that?
This is recorded by the way.
Yeah, it's an establishment in West Hollywood, although knowing doc, he's
still out of tune with reality that he might just ask for a happy ending.
And he might just get one.
Just go to, go to Alhambra for the, for the, uh, massage parlors out there.
You'll just way faster, dude.
Just don't even mess around with West Hollywood.
Just saying, man, takes one to no one.
Um, Hey, so moving, goddamn, moving on, um, taco and BSCN what's, uh, what's
going on, let's keep, let's keep the thread rolling towards blockchain gaming
I think gamer tag touched on something really important was, uh, the movement
of assets between games, um, where, and I think the, the, the hard piece on it
is a lot of the new games that are coming up, they're, they're moving assets
and NFTs between games because that IP is ownable and shareable.
I think the hard thing we've seen is, you know, some of these big gaming
companies, they have a lockdown on their assets and they don't want to share.
Um, what I, there's a, there is a company that I cannot name at this moment, but
they, uh, have been buying a bunch of old PlayStation game titles and, and
the whole IP rights and they've been doing it with Nintendo games as well.
So they own the IP and they basically, they have right now, at last count,
I was told 70,000 users in the PlayStation store where with those games,
they can take those assets and wrap them and put them into Nintendo games.
And I think that that's a start.
Um, but I think, I think gamer tags, uh, really game, uh, really hit it
on the head is like, that was the thing that we all talked about taking
something from one thing and putting it in the other, but the, the big
thing with a lot of these large AAA gaming studios, they locked down their
IP because they want to lock down their narrative, but then then we see a
lot of cool builds that happen on the side with the customization within game.
So, you know, I think there's, I think we're moving in that direction.
Um, I think one of the things that's really cool is more and more games
are allowing content creation sort of within the game.
And that's going to really help the narrative out, uh, as well, because like
we were talking earlier, the way, uh, Supercell did client forks, anyone
could make their own content.
And I think that that's what really pushed a huge play there.
So I think that's one of the cool things that's coming out.
You know, the, so these big studios, um, AAA studios or big publishing houses, right?
They, they're, they're still a disconnect, right?
Because they want to breach us, right?
That's, that sounds kind of, kind of gross, even though doc is
over at a breach house right now.
Anyways, um, they, they want to, um, they want to come into web three, right?
Look at, let's, let's use the 2021 example, right?
Um, there were some very notable ones.
Um, I mentioned this on our first game five that did come over to web three.
Where are those games now?
How come they're not these raven, beautiful designs, all this stuff happened.
Oh, no, no, listen, they minted out their NFTs and, uh, they minted out their NFTs.
They made millions of dollars on whatever initial liquidity, take a siphon and,
I don't, I don't see one.
I mean, I mean, I mean, I'll, I mean, some of you may, maybe more in tune, actually,
you know, you guys are more in tune into the gaming system than I am.
I'm just looking at it more like in the, in the investment side, I may miss some
things here, there, but as far as, uh, as far as that, but yeah, but I mean,
Scott taco, where, where, where are these massive, you know, not necessarily have
to be a triple a super, you know, 3d graph, realistic graphics, like, you
know, GTA six or, or, or some of these console first person shooter games.
But, but either way, where, where are these studios games now?
I mean, I, I, I don't understand because they have this massive presence.
They have this crazy user base and what did they do?
They try to bully themselves in saying, I have this come invest in me
because I have this, but their users aren't even playing their games.
So we saw it for what it was.
Well, for the most part, um, most of us did, but, uh, the ones that invested
in those, like, you know, Ubisoft's, uh, whatever that rug was anyways,
that, you know, those were, you know, they're, they're gone now.
So are they learning the lesson or is that, and now mind you, yes, some
of those studios are investors now in some of these games, like for example,
across the ages and, and, and, and quite a few others there, I'm guessing
they're learning maybe, I mean, I, I, that's, that's kind of there.
What, what's your, what's your guys viewpoint on that?
I, I think there's a couple of issues there.
One, um, games now feel like they have to come across with 20 different,
like success points on their roadmap.
We're going to have a game.
We're going to have a community.
We're going to have a Netflix show, cartoon, a movie, all of these things.
So they locked down their IP.
And so they make like they, they bully themselves in, but then say,
no one can play with them, uh, that it's going to be their story rather than
what's, what was one of the stupidest, greatest things were create your
own story stuff, you know, um, text to play games were, were amazing.
Um, and I think, oh, there was a, there was something that you'd said
that I now am 100% spacing on because I thought it was a good point.
But, um, they're just, like you said, they want to bully themselves in.
Oh, but I think one of the hardest aspects is people are limiting themselves
to this 10,000 meta, this 2000 is 3000 meta to play a game.
I don't know what game succeeds with only having allowing 3000
people or a thousand people to play.
Um, I'm not, I have, I have fudded camel all I can because I 100% support
Zenga, but I think it was really stupid that they limited their
game to 9,999 freemint yet.
Don't, don't get me wrong, but what's really hilarious, even though
there was 9,999 supposedly only 6,000 some odd were create ever minted.
And they stopped it at that for their Genesis one, but now they're
going at like 400 bucks plus.
So how are you expecting to grow a community?
If only a thousand people, and I say that, you know, because you
look at the holder count, most people hold own like three or more.
And so by how do you expect your community, your game to grow?
If you're limiting yourself to that 10,000 meta or less, I think one of the cool
metas that we might see in the future and we're starting to see an asset
management NFTs that a hundred thousand plus will be the new meta.
You want a hundred thousand players, then you have to have a hundred thousand
plus collection because games, the hardest thing is what it's like three
day turnaround, if they don't come back, they're not coming back.
But Taco, that's what you guys done.
And we're, we're trending that way right now.
Oh, but Azuki's released 40 K.
More you're going to the ones that succeed pudgies.
Can they continue to drop them?
They, they, they understand this.
The ones that are native from the NFT space.
I, and I agree with you on that, but when we saw it, like I, I'm
going to have to do a thousand out, you know, but when it limits people, you
know, to just try it out, like you have to have a 400 to $5,000 asset just to come
play, that's a limiting factor.
But that's why they opened up doogie dash to anybody now.
I, I 100% agree with you.
They're like, they, they did like Nifty Ireland is not limited to its own
So I think we're going to see the entire asset class as the communities.
And I don't think any, any game that's siloed, you're correct.
So it's own community is going to survive.
Hey, how many of you have played doogie dash more than twice?
I think I played it once.
I mean, natural gameplay and people actually want to play it.
You, um, yeah, got to respond, raise some hands up by the way, I meant
understanding the NFT community.
And so delivering an NFT community, something that they didn't originally
get in for breaks the social contract.
Love the brought that up.
Fidgety want to get some hands.
Marco has been extremely bad.
I love you, Fidgety, I do, but Marco has had his hand up forever and looks like it's,
you know, it's, it's, it's burning, itching and oozing, maybe, maybe developing spots.
So we need to like, let's go, let's go.
Just to taco's point though, uh, and I couldn't agree more, but what I would
potentially say, um, is they are not what I would call the core game of baits.
You know, these people that are, um, minting the NFTs, they're not, they're by
no means the core game of baits.
So, you know, who, who were they targeting?
They're just targeting the people who went through.
Um, you know, that's never, I'm with you.
That's never going to scale your, your game to be sustainable for the long term.
So that's just one point there.
The other point, it's funny, Tetris is being mentioned twice and, uh, you
know, uh, and let's take those, those games that stood the test.
You can't go games super Mario, et cetera, et cetera, you know, moving them onto
a blockchain, um, pushing it forward.
Um, for me, it's pushing it onto other platforms.
Anyone that's got a VR headset, I encourage you now, go, go and
I've been playing all my Nintendo games from old now into virtual reality.
So I've moved it from my 2d screen and I'm now immersed into the game.
That for me is moving the dial forward.
Look at the other platforms, mediums that you can experience these games,
not just by leaving it on a 2d screen.
I think, I think that that, you know, the, the VR emulators are amazing.
Um, but, and I, but I also believe, you know, a lot of games need to aim for
mass adoption, um, outside of the gamer community and web two, just web two
gaming is also aimed for mobile.
I know it's a harder, a harder game game piece because you can't make
the game as depth sometimes, but there's some really good pieces out there
that, that are able to complete that not to show anyone, but I think finding
that balance between mobile and desktop players is also really a good point.
Now someone mentioned Zynga, um, didn't, uh, Zynga co-founder
make a farm bill on the blockchain already.
So why would they make sugar town?
They wanted to pork and cash crap.
Um, so look at, I mean, even now that, you know, with gala, um, specifically
with town star, it's, you know, it's a huge game for gala.
You know, bullish Zynga founder, but then look at what's happening now.
It's, it's a pretty big collapse, right?
They're trying, they're trying to stay ahead of the flood and all this stuff.
Right now, not to fund them down or anything.
You know, I have community members that have a ton of notes of those stuff,
but, um, but regardless, you know, they're, they're internally imploding, right?
Found the two founders are suing each other.
Whatever in the world is happening.
Maybe it's not, but you know, it's, it's, you know, is, is the farm
bill mechanism is that bullish, right?
I mean, cause again, uh, I think taco mentioned, uh, sugar town, but isn't
that just like a, isn't that a farm bill for a fork or a town star for you?
It's the same thing to me anyway, unless I'm wrong taco.
I mean, I don't know if you, if you play the game or not, but it, I saw,
I saw the trailer, saw the stuff and I'm like, it's the same garbage.
All they're doing is just again, reskinning everything.
And yes, there are, might be some mechanisms a little bit different, but
it's, it's, it's, it's, to me, it's, it's the same crap dude.
I don't understand how you can crash grab the same thing over and over again.
I haven't seen there any other season two stuff first season sort of looked
like, uh, you know, um, you know, a 2d side racer, you know, um, and,
but it was one of those things that you had to have a $400 asset just to go play.
So it's, if, if, you know, you can't even go, like I would understand if, if
I could go play it, but I couldn't save my score if I didn't own the asset.
I understand that, but not being able to, to even let someone play
because they don't own an asset.
I think, I think that that's really closeting and, and like
Fidgetile said, you know, with you got opening up Dookie dash, Dookie dash
was on everyone's radar because one of the really cool security aspects
that got pushed out was, uh, delegate cash now delegate dot, uh, XYZ.
And, you know, for people to hold their asset, but let other people use it.
I think that that is one of the coolest things that doesn't get talked about a lot.
Some of the cool tech pieces that are coming out.
Um, but by token gating, who can play your game, uh, you know, sort of closes
the door to the, to the users that will be playing your game for fun, you know,
because they've just had a hard day of work and they want to mindlessly
traverse something and farm something or just not think about something.
You know, that's, that's my take on that.
Is everybody silent or am I not able to hear it?
Now, sometimes the controls are hard to get to the whole time.
No, dude, I was muted the whole time.
Oh, I thought I, I thought I thought that everyone just was
like, yeah, we dropped the mic.
Well, let, let the recording show.
The, the, the peanut gallery was hushed after that taco.
You wowed them, but where did, where did Fidgey go?
Did he, did he left after he talked crap about it?
I think, I think, yeah, I think he did.
No, he DM'd me come back.
Like, and I love Fidget, like, but, uh, and it was.
I think that them opening them up, opening up Dookie dash to everyone.
They, they built a huge audience.
They built a ton of content or a lot of people built some amazing content around it.
Um, the fact that they allowed delegate, uh, wallets to play that way,
more people could play that was amazing.
Can I, can I, can I show something real quick, Seth or Jay?
So I actually have, you know, whatever you need.
I have, I have delegate cash on the show on my show tomorrow.
Um, so if people want to know how they implement delegate, uh, delegate wallets.
So basically rentable assets owned in a way, or just let anyone else play
come stop by, ask a ton of questions because it helps keep expensive assets
safe so other people, other people can play.
Do they, do they have payday loans on NFTs?
Where you could go borrow an asset for like three days for like 40 cents that
normally it's like $40, but you know, to buy it, but you could go borrow it for
like 40 cents and play and have all of the benefits of it.
And then you just pay back 50 cents.
If you're not going to use your asset, let other people use it.
Uh, that's, that's absolutely correct.
Now that also, that also goes in line of trusting, right?
And not to put anything new that you have going on, whatever with, with, with
companies, but here's, here's how I saw this, you know, looking at and being
part of, let's, let's go for, for this community, um, the board a community,
I've never seen so many newbies in one place in my entire life.
And so many wallets get drained in my entire life.
Um, I'm, where I'm sitting, I mean, and you know, a lot of the, listen,
a lot of the reports that, um, that came out on Cointelegraph and, and, and, and
some on Twitter, it's nowhere near the scale.
It wasn't until you go, actually go in the community and people complaining
that their NFT just literally disappeared from their wallet.
So that made me hyper, hyper paranoid.
I'm already a paranoid guy.
Seth says, well, we, you know, protect ourselves, that kind of deal.
I have offline devices, air gap devices.
Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's my choice.
Is that the most convenient?
It's a pain in the ass, but guess what?
Knock on wood, hear the knock.
I have yet to lose anything, right?
That doesn't mean if, you know, maybe put a few bucks in it and gotten
rugged, but I'm a knock on wood.
I have yet to lose anything.
Now, some of that stuff is behind, um, multi-sig.
Some of that stuff is in, uh, is, uh, is with ledger.
And this is back when I was massively heavy in NFTs, right?
I had a vault with an amazing collection that literally I bought from one
wallet and transferred it to, to, to another wallet that has never seen
the light of day until I wanted to sell something, right?
So that means I never connected to open C with it.
I never connected anywhere else in the world, but that wallet was mine.
You know, so a couple, a couple of those vaults, they were mold behind multi-sig.
So again, I hyper, hyper paranoid, right?
And we've touched this on our privacy spaces.
I think, uh, a few, uh, you know, it was a few weeks back, um, before the
holidays where there were some best practices that, you know, Seth and I
cover and that kind of deal and Seth, um, where I think, um, I think we may need
to continue the, uh, the, the, the article that you were kind of, uh, putting out
there, right, uh, maybe turn into newsletter, but anyways, so yeah, um, best practices
is safety, yeah, best practices, safety, things like that.
So, um, we're sitting here watching this and, um, and dude, I, I was
terrified to lend anyone anything.
Cause I saw an opportunity, right?
It's a steak and, and obviously you can leverage, take money out, things like
that to have, I miss opportunities probably, but guess what?
I, I depleted my vault for an insane amount of profit and I didn't
feel like I missed anything.
So looking at, looking at taking an NFT that I own and putting it in the
trust and care of another platform.
Now, mind you, some of those NFTs that I owned were hundreds of thousands of
dollars, so I'm lending, say, for example, I had a McLaren, I'm going to lend my
McLaren to a random stranger and accept, and accept the fact that he is not
going to crash it, right?
No, that that's, that's, that's, again, that's a risk criteria of me personally
that I did and I survived it.
You know, others did not.
Now some of those platforms, maybe they, they, they weren't responsible for this.
Um, you know, say, you know, whatever mass influx of just, you know, NFTs leaking
out of wallets, you know, with the unexpectedly or whatever there, yes, some
of those may be malicious as far as like that, they may intentionally say that.
So they don't have to pay taxes, however, they were doing it, you know, but
for the most part, for, for some of those that were genuinely taken, whether
they click links, not click links, whatever got on the platform, not got
on a platform, you know, having that large of an asset in the trust and care
of somebody else besides you, that, that's a tough, that's a tough thing.
Taco, that's a tough thing for me personally.
And my risk criteria, that's for me to do.
I haven't been convinced.
There hasn't been enough benefit from to convince me to do that, right?
To take a hundred thousand, 200, $300,000 asset and put it in the care of something.
Now, yes, you could, argument can be made DeFi is like this.
You can put, you know, $2 million in Aave and you know, that's your, it's out of
I mean, that you can, you can do something like that when you're doing
concentrated liquidity, you're putting 50 grand or something, a hundred grand in
something, you can argue for that as well.
But mind you, a lot of these platforms were brand new.
So yeah, I mean, I, that's, that's my, that's my viewpoint.
You know, not, not to take away from what you're covering or anything like that,
but a lot of us feel this way, right?
A lot of us feel that way and we saw this happen.
So, you know, to put a trust in care and to, of, of, of, of, of a very expensive,
easily stealable asset is, is absolutely incredible, dude.
I mean, I don't, I don't know what, what would ever convince me to, to, to
Others, you know, if it's part of your risk criteria, maybe you'll, maybe
your assets only worth, you know, five or 10 grand and whatever, you can
loan it out all day long, do whatever you want to, but you know, I, I, I
bought into blue chips that was in that lifestyle and, uh, and yeah, I, I
still see it kind of the same way where, where I would, you know, not kind of
trust somebody else to, to manage my asset for me, you know, but I don't know.
That's again, my viewpoint taco, my bad.
I don't know how you feel about that, but that that's how, how I kind of see things.
I agree with you on that.
Like, um, you know, there was the day, you know, the days of, Hey, uh, I
wanted to go have something that was token gated I needed to borrow.
I needed to either move an asset into my wallet, active wallet, or borrow an
asset from a friend and they needed to send it to me and, and yeah, you know,
heck I've, I've been catfished for a rock, you know, so it does happen to
the best of us, but, or the worst of us, I don't know, but the possible, one
of the things you were sort of saying on apes, it's one of those things to where
it was such, such a huge target, uh, you know, of, of opportunity for people,
you know, uh, what is like the number one stolen car?
Isn't it like a Honda civic or something like that?
Because there's such a huge demand for it.
So it's, it's same thing.
Every, like everyone wants an eight and it's such a quick turnaround and flip.
That it is a, it's the number one targeted community, um, for a reason.
And, but what's really hilarious is it's, there's so much more malicious actors
out there that people got to be safe.
And I think projects where, or protocols that allow you to touch DeFi with the
power of your assets behind you, but not putting them at risk to where I can
go, you know, FAFO and not worry about losing anything.
Um, and, uh, that way I have like, you know, especially in a token gated
opportunities, you know, being able to delegate power, uh, of one wallet or
one multisig vault, or my cold storages that I don't ever have, they don't have
to integrate with any contract other than they've signed a message that a
wallet can speak on their behalf, like has that power and it's just what it is.
So I think that there's some really cool stuff there that as more assets come
on shame, not just gaming assets, but even as like gaming assets become more
and more expensive, um, or more wanted because gaming companies are delivering
and building fun things and like those Genesis things, like I'm one game that
hasn't been talked about that I'm loving is, uh, parallel TCG, um, you know,
and I just got invited to the colony as to try out the colony as well.
But the, some of those assets are getting starting to get really expensive.
And so being able to play with those and trust, putting them into a protocol,
um, that's, that's a risk in and of itself, like you said.
So I don't know, there's no perfect solution yet.
But during this downturn, we've seen a lot of people come out with awesome stuff,
awesome tech that allows you to play and play safely.
I think that's going to be the trickiest part, man.
So talking earlier about the security side, playing and playing safely,
that the balance between custody and non-custody, the chasm is so great right now.
And so Taco, like you're saying, being able to just do proper like risk
assessment and proper threat modeling is always, it's the hardest thing.
But, but when it comes to this entire category, where I agree with you is that
they're, um, until the average retail participant in any kind of blockchain
gaming, until they have skills, then there has to be some kind of a, yeah,
an onboarding solution that makes them safe enough, but it's not really
blockchain gaming until it's non-custodial, right?
Like it's a catch 22 and getting to full custody means that you do have to up
skill. Well, what's the business model of everybody in web through gaming?
It's not security. You're not, you're not in the security business per se,
or you're not in the, you're not in the data security or infosec business per
se, at least not, not, not, uh, that's not what you're selling.
Uh, it just happens to be something that you, you have to secure because
you got the assets, but, but love, love the hot tags, man.
Absolutely love the hot tags.
Skimmer tags, you had your hand up, did you want to jump in on this or?
Yeah, well, it was about the conversation earlier about, uh, you know,
triple eight games and kind of why they showed up yet. Um, I mean,
I think this touches on what we were just talking about. They're,
they're playing it safe. They're kind of letting everybody else, you know,
test the water and see if there's any sharks in there that they got to
avoid or, uh, but there is a drawback to that too. Cause if they take too long,
you know, just to give it a real world scenario, uh, to compare it to you,
do you guys remember Sears in their catalog?
I mean them holding onto their IP rights in their catalog and not adopting
the internet and take putting it all on the web really made them go out of
business. And I think that's really the same scenario.
History kind of repeats itself in just different forms. Uh,
I think that's kind of what's happening with the web three gaming space or could
potentially happen to a lot of these triple A studios. Uh, if they wait too long,
they're, they're going to be left in the dust. It'll be too late for them.
Is it waiting too long or is it lack of knowledge in our space? I mean,
which, which, which do you think is the latter? I mean, cause I mean,
we've been here forever, right? I mean, what's blockchain is here. I mean,
and mind you in, in the tech field, even, even gaming field, right? I mean,
it's, it's you, I'm pretty sure, I mean, mind you, yes, a speculation,
but I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure that they're, they're still, uh,
probably a lot of developers specifically in these large studios that may play
with crypto, right? They, they, they kind of, they're in our space,
but they don't really, you know, consult for the, for the,
the company they work for, but you know, maybe they own some assets or they,
or, you know, they bought into NFTs or, or, or things like that. And they're,
they're well versed enough where they're,
they can kind of gauge the genuine interest, right? But then, so,
so what's their deal, right? What is their deal, right? They,
maybe they used Ubisoft as a case study and see like, holy shit, hell no.
Or, or even, um, some of these founders that come in and, you know, obviously,
you know, they're having their internal problems with like all the games,
but you know what, what is the real deal? That's what I would like to know.
these guys dominate and literally destroy the,
any competition that, that they have in that, in that,
in that field and web too, you know, that not so much to bully themselves in,
embed them in. And then, then again, I don't know. I'm just, you know,
getting another guy on the internet just had questions, but yeah,
it just kind of kind of baffles me on how they,
they don't really divert the proper resources to,
to really dominate this entire space that we haven't went through.
I think a lot of it comes to regulation because a lot of people are worried that
if they move their IP or any of their assets on chain and they haven't done
that already, that they, because there's not a clear level,
they don't want to put anything at risk.
I think that's the biggest thing so far,
Well, yeah, there's, I mean, it's certainly within crypto, there's,
there's obviously there's stiff,
but the stiff penalty that comes from,
from making the wrong move in the United States is,
is that there's zero clarity, right? From,
from the SEC zero clarity about the underlying assets.
And so far it's been, it's been,
it's been regulation through enforcement, right?
So it's all these enforcement actions of getting a nasty gram from the SEC,
bare minimum, an angry letter, right?
If not a lawsuit that names you and all of your investors and everybody,
you know, you've ever air dropped or whatever, like it's become so punitive.
And people are, are so afraid of the heat of the stove that they,
they never even like got close to it to figure out how is this thing even
on, right? Like, and in the case of the SEC, you'd, you'd think it's not on,
but they've got some, they've got something else going like at the,
the flamethrower hidden behind behind their back, like, Hmm, well,
who do we target now? Um, uh,
while we're figuring out what the rules really are. So yeah, there's,
I get why there's trepidation in the traditionally web to games,
when they're looking at this whole asset class and saying, yeah,
what, what is the playbook? How do we get integrated?
some of the pushback from traditional web to players that them saying, Hey,
that we think this is a cash grab. Well,
now you got two massive influences that that would scare most
reasonable people. And, you know, as we all know,
founders aren't reasonable, thank God.
Otherwise they would have gotten started in the beginning or to begin with,
but, um, but still it is a lot. It's a,
it's a headwind that that can,
I'm sure is deterring a lot of would be web three or web 2.5
studios from even getting started. Um,
but love that you bring that up taco.
We're coming up on three and a half hours guys for the space.
I appreciate you being here. We are taking speaker requests. If, uh,
if you would like to get some stage time, we would love to have you up here.
We still have Marco with us, which is a great treat. So, um, Gary,
I see you man. I'm calling you out. I'm going to extend you the invite.
I think this would be a great condo. I'm meeting if you got,
if you don't know any of each other, I think you should personally Marco and
Gary should meet. Um, just saying, um,
Marco's like you, you sweet summer child. Yes.
I'm bringing them up anyway. Um, so that we had that combo here, but, uh,
don't be shy. Marco, you were, you were, you were so close faces. Come on,
my friend. Let's go. Let's hear from you. I miss you, buddy. How you doing?
And there he is. We got some other speaker requests coming up as well.
We're going to pull you up as soon as we can. And Gary, once you have a,
once you have that mic check GM, how are you? Good to see you.
Just making sure you're acting to be heard clearly. Am I?
Yes, sir. Let's go, sir. Yes, sir. And, and by the way,
I wanted to thank introduction to Sam. We actually met up, um,
met up, uh, the other day here in, uh, in St. Pete and, uh,
and tonight I think he said tonight, um,
I'm going to help him out, um, on his New Hampshire spaces. So, man, good,
good introduction, man. This is awesome.
Yeah, it's an excellent space. Uh,
I was listening for just a couple of minutes and it was, you know,
kind of the question I think about IP, uh,
if you meet with a Paramount studios or any of the film studios and they have
something like a Star Trek as a intellectual property,
you can have someone like a William Shatner on stage at consensus talking
about the launch of an NFT. Uh,
but it goes to also the question of what is ownership? Like yours, uh,
I think Seth was saying something about regulatory clarity. It goes to like,
what is the publishing rights? What are the ownership rights?
Where can it be distributed? Um, you know,
what are the boundaries as far as countries or entities pirating
imagery? It even goes like,
I listen in and participate in a lot of the AI spaces.
So if you put a prompt into, uh, an AI, uh, image generator,
and it says something along the lines of Star Trek, uh, in, in the prompt,
you know, there's not even clarity about who owns the derivative or, or, you
know, uh, the, the monetization of the derivatives. So, you know, uh,
crypto is a niche already. And, uh, that's,
I think that is one of the reasons why, uh,
there's hesitancy about putting IP into, into gaming.
Well, there's, there's a, a platform that has the most amazing amount of IP.
We, we have all been kind of torn and, uh, you know,
I hate to flood them out, um, kind of torn and, um,
and broken at the same time because it's literally every cartoon ever,
right? So this platform set knows what I'm talking about. It's called VV.
So VV is an AR, you know, kind of NFT type of place where they have nearly every
Disney character, every Marvel character, every DC character, every, I mean,
it's the list goes on cartoon network, all of the, all of the, you know,
it's just, again, it's an, it's an array of the most craziest IP, right?
And the little background of the story in case none of you know about this
company, um, the, they did partner originally,
I believe he left in late 2021 or 2022, um,
they did partner originally with the, uh,
the gentleman who brought the IP of Pokemon from Japan to the world.
So he introduced Pokemon to the world. And because of that,
he gained an incredible amount of influence towards all the cartoon, um,
all the cartoon studios or those IP rights, those, those issuers. And, um,
so they were able to kind of network and maneuver and it became the most amazing
thing that just had a very poor execution. But regardless, it's,
it's something that's here, right? It is here, you know, it,
there is genuine interest in, in doing something, licensing something.
yes, in, in, in, in your defense and in an argument or,
or statement is that those aren't games. Those are NFTs, right?
And they're AR NFTs. So they're not even, you know,
your standard PFPs that, you know, I have, uh, guys has,
and quite a few others, uh, in the audience. So, you know, that,
that's a complex navigation that there,
there's probably a lot of language in there on what they can and can't use it
maybe it's just for the AR because they didn't see a value in having AR,
even though what's happening now,
met as heavily invested in this, they're spending, you know,
hundreds of billions into the research of, you know, having AR Apple is too,
as well. So maybe they kind of stumped themselves in the foot,
but it's all right. So it, you know, those, those IP rights are,
you know, at least in the, the mega of the web to influence IP rights from
cartoon networks, uh, to, to Disney's, to, to DC's, to, you know,
pretty much almost literally everything,
the array of buffet of IPs they have is the most amazing thing in the world,
mind you, poor business execution, but regardless, they still have the IP.
So yeah, I just, you know, it's kind of,
it's kind of odd that, um, that some are still hesitant.
Like for example, Namco and Dragon Ball Z and, and, and, and some others,
but you got these huge studios that are,
that are licensing out to specific web three platforms. So yeah,
I don't know. I just kind of, kind of, you know,
thought to, to kind of bring that out and maybe get your,
get your thoughts on that Gary.
Well, another, another interesting observation, uh,
was maybe about a month ago,
it was some taglines about steamboat Willie and Mickey Mouse,
you know, the origin of Mickey Mouse becoming, uh, basically, uh,
public property, uh, because the protections,
if any of the art, uh, were expiring and, you know,
set up from, I think 75 years or whatever the expiration was.
And so then, uh, very quickly, uh,
to capitalize on that momentum inside the crypto space,
and other gaming, uh, kind of platforms,
I saw that there were charts and tokens and, uh,
games that were, uh, pay for play that were, uh,
using, uh, steamboat Willie, uh,
kind of an equate or doom kind of, uh,
run running, uh, murder, murder game, right?
And so you could say, well, you know,
that's, that's open for any kind of use.
It's public, uh, property now.
And even though it may lean on the most recent 75 years of brand development,
whether it's good or bad by Disney, uh, you know,
that that's, that's something that's easily recognizable, um,
as, uh, intellectual property, right?
So it goes also to the question of,
yeah, we have publishing rights and we can publish things, uh,
on a blockchain and we can tokenize, you know,
certain IP properties, whether it's permissioned or not, right?
So the origin, I remember at least of like NFT hype was, uh,
this is the, the, the Jersey for Michael Jordan and somebody wants to buy the,
the, the digital version of the Jersey number 33,
but Michael Jordan wasn't involved at all with any of those decisions or launch.
So we see that all across the landscape.
You also can go to the question of, uh, you know,
maybe a little bit more or a lot more polarizing kinds of intellectual property.
Uh, Santa Claus can sell Coca-Cola, uh, why?
Because it's public property.
Santa Claus can, uh, Jesus can be used basically by any person because again,
it's public property as a, as a brand, right?
Jesus brand, God brand, uh, it won't be that long, uh,
before even something like a swastika, you know, good or bad use,
you know, it's arguable because some people are going to pay for
memorabilia, nostalgia, you know, or whatever reasons.
So like, what is your publishing rights on the blockchain?
And then what is the, the fallout, uh, you know,
for people that are freedom minded and say, hey,
you should be able to do anything you want, uh, you know, with your money.
So those decisions are still gray zone across all kinds of countries and regulatory authorities.
Gary, I love that you bring up all these different potential IP entanglements
and then also bringing up the stuff that, you know, may just not, not be, uh,
not have a lot of popular support because it's associated with terrible things, right?
Like you mentioned, you know, Nazi imagery or whatever,
but there is a historical value to that.
And so there are, there are preservation societies who, um,
and I mean, the museum of tolerance, there's so much,
so many good and virtuous applications of that IP, like you mentioned,
but then in the NFT ecosystem and in crypto, right?
And broader blockchain ecosystem, we've got things like the writer rips collection
that is completely unaltered, right?
And so in terms of fair use as some sort of criticism or satire, right?
At least in the United States, the way that fair use is written, um,
and meant to cover criticism or satire, ripping it off wholesale and then saying
with a straight face, oh no, unironically, well,
this is criticism and satire because all I had to do was steal the art.
Uh, we, we've got that going on.
We got that going on now here too.
And it's being entertained right at the highest levels.
So yeah, that's just one thing outside of cryptocurrency.
This is one of those controversial and it's interesting because it's on YouTube.
So someone creates a reaction, like I even see outrage over people reposting someone else's tweet.
Someone makes a tweet, someone, uh, you know,
cuts out the tagline or the, you know, whoever posted it maybe first,
uh, but like the reaction videos.
And now there are people that monetize through reacting,
but it's an auto play, not reacting to the actual video kind of overlay.
So like, where does it go to?
It's a, it's fair use because it's adding some kind of creative context or,
you know, it's a, you know, I'm old enough to remember where, uh,
taking loops out of music and then putting it into a rap song was still controversial.
And now it's, you know, mashups and all kinds of things.
So like, is it better for society?
Uh, well, it doesn't really matter if it's better or not.
Society is going to, you want to call it dystopian or utopian future is where we're going to go.
I don't know which course.
So like it's going to happen regardless.
It just like how, how are we going to choose to participate and affiliate brand, uh,
of an individual or brand of a particular blockchain or product is the question.
I love also that the, so the legal precedent of IP as well,
like in, in those different iterations, you mentioned with music, with the samples,
clearly you're referring to the high profile David Bowie versus vanilla ice case.
But with shouldn't I involved holding model balcony from his ankles?
It's a, these, these, this is precedent is what matters.
That's all that fucking matters is legal president said allegedly, allegedly holding.
Hey, I was definitely not there.
So I, I definitely couldn't say, but, but, uh, but that's the, yeah, the, the, uh,
So, but that, that kicked things off.
And then in the 2000s, we, you know, we had these, we got these heavy hitters,
like, uh, like Lawrence Lessig that are coming out and saying, no,
we need to scrap the whole thing and come up with a new paradigm.
Enter creative commons, right?
And that worked for a time.
We had creative commons, zero and creative commons one.
And then we had a copy left in the code sector.
We have all these other, these other iterations, right?
And derivatives of what could be the new interpretation of intellectual property.
And that is in its messy middle too.
It's not fully mature yet.
It's adolescent to best in that we've only had creative commons licensing
for under 20 years now, maybe, maybe 15 at most.
So Gary, what you're saying, like that really strikes a chord.
I've been following that very closely, especially, uh, Professor Lessig's work
since, since he got involved in, in, um, in creative commons.
And we stopped talking about that in crypto, right?
MIT brought some brilliant licenses.
That's what Satoshi used for the main Bitcoin core code base.
And we have others that are, that are serviceable, but they're not perfect
when it comes to this intellectual property or this speech or that speech.
Um, so yeah, I hate to be tried, but we really are still in the wild west.
Let me make one more, uh, another thing that you brought up just now.
And so one of the protections, like you just said something about licensing
of software and you say, okay, well, this is created under this license.
Or basically, uh, some people have decided not to have any license whatsoever.
And the reasoning I have heard was because a central exchange
would not want to be sued basically.
So they need to have some kind of license in order to list something
I really don't remember the specifics.
Um, but then you have almost like in the, the DEA in the United States,
the drug enforcement agencies, they can have different classes of drugs
and they can say what is, you know, permitted to be sold and not permitted
to be sold by pharma, uh, pharmacies, uh, or prescribed by physicians.
And then there are the derivatives, which basically designer drugs that can
get around basically the rule set because you're calling by name,
something legal or illegal, therefore changing a few properties of the
chemistry or even the inert ingredients can, uh, get around that.
So I see the same sort of thing inside of cryptocurrency.
You can say that, well, this is permissioned because the SEC says that
this is a commodity and the other things that are not deemed, uh, or
authorized by SEC, uh, they're still going to trade on DEXs.
They're still, you know, the technology or the protocol is still going
to allow for people to participate in some way or find a route to it.
Right. Uh, otherwise it becomes complete gray market anyway.
So like, you know, I do see a movement from centralization, uh,
centralized exchanges of all kinds of products and, you know,
uh, in the digital realm, all kinds of quote unquote assets in the
digital realm and still being traded on different platforms.
And maybe it just becomes rotation.
Um, you can pick up a t-shirt, like I said, uh, you know, very quickly,
you can come up with a brand new idea through an AI prompt to generate
and put it on a t-shirt on red bubble.
And within seconds, if it becomes popular, it will be also distributed by
all kinds of, uh, uh, secondary or tertiary markets, you know, marketers.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So derivative media is, and as you, so by any other name,
what you're bringing up Gary is, is derivative media.
And, and, uh, so how, or derivative, uh, applications, right.
Of, of the intellectual property, but, but just a derivative and legally how,
yeah, what, what percentage do you have to change the ingredients, uh,
or of the secret sauce, right?
So to speak, whether it's media or code or, or yeah, or an image of steamboat Willie.
And now obviously that one's been reduced to 0% change, but, but yeah,
the rest, like what's the minimum viable new intellectual property derivative.
God, that was really nerdy to say, but, but no, I hear what you're saying.
It is, it is important for somebody to contend with it, with the details.
Otherwise there will never be clarity.
There will never be certainty.
So, uh, so yeah, love, love, uh, waiting into the weeds there with you.
But Jay, we've gone on almost, we're coming up on four hours.
I saw Gary in the audience and it was like, how can I not hear from Gary before we finish up?
So I wanted to invite him up and, uh, and wrap a little bit before we, before we closed.
But Jay, what do you, what do you think coming up on four hours?
Do we, uh, do we call the end of the show at 2pm?
No, let's, let's do it, dude.
We, uh, you know, that's, um, we, I think we have some, um,
some meetings coming up a little bit later, prepare for anyways.
But this has been, uh, definitely a joy.
And, um, and Marco, I did send you a DM.
Maybe there's a way, you know, my firm can, you know, connect with you and,
you know, Seth and I and our other partners who as well,
which I do see him in the audience.
Um, yeah, we'd love to talk to maybe collaborate.
This isn't your DM, but anyways, yeah, further than this, uh, let's, um,
This was pretty freaking amazing, incredible, man.
Yeah, no, this has been another great one.
Jay just super flattered and humbled that the panelists have chose to spend their
time with us the way they have.
Thank you, uh, medieval empires.
Thank you to all of our phenomenal valued guests.
We thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
You're the reason that we, uh, that we produce this show.
You're the reason that we, uh, that we ask Moby media to share their stage with us
Thank you for providing frankly, what we think is the best stage in cryptocurrency,
uh, consistent messaging like this.
So that partnership has, has served so well and we're just so gratitude,
so grateful and so humble to those who are helping to make this show everything it could be.
We've gotten alpha from the, uh, from all the major publishers.
We've gotten alpha from some of the, the, the biggest creators who are dedicated to this space.
And, and, and Jay, I just, I feel, I feel, you know, I feel edified.
I feel, uh, I feel uplifted.
I'm better for, for listening to these people.
So I'm so glad that they stopped by and chose to share with us.
Yeah, this has been pretty incredible.
You know, don't forget also the great medieval empire still in the audience,
even though it's not how to leave.
Um, I also did notice Stasis is down below Stasis net.
Hey, big shout out to, uh, to those folks out there like what you're doing.
But yeah, on another note, um, let's go ahead and close this up, man.
This has been phenomenal humbly speaking again.
Um, man, this is, I mean, we, uh, it's, it's everything that I,
that once it all came together, I thought exactly, it's like, no, wait,
it exceeded my expectations.
So this is, this has been awesome, man, man.
We'll be here again next Tuesday as we, um, as we explore possibly DeFi,
maybe, or maybe another music one.
I don't know that it's, it's, you know, that it's, it's literally
endless with, uh, with the amount of incredible folks that we have met along the way.
So yeah, but no, Moby, Noah, love you guys.
Thank you guys again and, uh, take care.