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Is InfoFi the Next Big Thing? âšī¸ The Aggregated Ep. 115
Recorded: May 30, 2025 Duration: 2:17:52Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion highlights the explosive growth of InfoFi, emphasizing its potential to revolutionize content creation and community engagement in the crypto space. Participants explore the importance of partnerships, grants, and innovative financial models, while addressing challenges such as civil attacks and the need for quality data.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Polygon pump it up
Pump it, pump it, you gotta pump it
ZKDVM is Ethereum
ZKDVM is Ethereum
ZKDVM is Ethereum Pump it. You gotta pump it. Pump it. Pump it. You gotta pump it. Pump it. Pump it. You gotta pump it. Pump it. Pump it. You gotta pump it. Yeah. Thank you. You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it, pump it.
You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it, you gotta pump it.
Yeah.
Good morning.
GMGM.
Happy Friday, everyone.
Happy Friday. We ready to get started?
Yeah. Cool week, like unique week this week, right?
It's been a wild week. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. So no, I'm super excited to hang out and talk InfoFi. So I think we'll get started.
Welcome, everyone.
I am Two Cent Timmy.
This is my first time co-hosting The Aggregated, so I am absolutely thrilled.
Rock and Aztec are doing big things at the Litecoin and Bitcoin Summit, so they asked me to step up.
So I am super happy.
Love talking InfoFi. So, yeah, let's kick it off. So really the theme of the show, you guys, it's going to be like,
you can hop right in. If you have something to say, just start talking. We'll go through a few
questions. I think it'll be very interesting because InfoFi is something that is very new and very exciting that's all over the timeline so yeah we'll get
going so I think we'll start with introductions and then we'll start moving so why don't we start
with you Nicole and then we'll just move left to right as I see people
on my screen. Whoa, I never get to introduce myself. You know, this is, this will be the
first time that I've ever introduced myself on this show. Yeah, crazy. Okay, so I'm Nicole,
Nerd Girl 007. I work for LDA, and I've been in the space since like 2016.
I do like PR and kind of just like a bunch of different stuff in the space.
And I host, I kind of co-host this show fairly regularly.
Like whenever Aztec can't be here, I'm here.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Aztec's twin.
Let's just put it that way.
I look, we look exactly alike.
Love, love to hear it.
Awesome.
Now we will move on over to my PFP buddy, my PFP cousin Walls.
Why don't you introduce yourself, my friend?
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hey, brother.
Super nice to be here.
First of all, you have a great PFP as well. We are are now yappy bars from uh kaito nfts yeah super cool um so yeah i'm uh
all about social fi all about info fi i've been um grinding big on portal coin uh hit it big on uh
pacmoon uh obviously kaito uh now we're being loud as uh yeah as loud as ever I think top 15 or
something on loud leaderboard right now yeah also do like web 3 marketing full
time for like multiple years now working with multiple projects so yeah huge
passionate info 5 believer so yeah super excited to be here I think is gonna be a
great space awesome yeah I'm glad glad we can connect on another space.
Now we'll pass the mic over on to Ruto. What's going on, my friend? Happy Friday.
Happy Friday. Happy Friday. If you hear some clicking and clacking in the background, it's because I have, there's a lot of stuff going on back here but uh yeah i'm excited to be up here i saw the i saw
the title of the space and i was like oh man i got some i got some hot takes i got some good takes
uh i'm excited to chat about it awesome and rudo didn't say this but he works on the growth
marketing team at polygon oh yeah yeah i i do. I do that. I do that too.
The hot takes are more important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do a little bit of that also.
Awesome. And now we'll hand the mic on over to Monica. How are you doing, Monica? Good morning.
Jim, Jim. Good morning. I think I'm a little bit of a different person on the space. I focus
on Latin America. I have a website in Spanish called Crypto Conexion. I have been in the space. I focus on Latin America. I have a website in Spanish called Crypto
Conexion. I have been in the space since 2020, but really not active on crypto Twitter until
Kaito. So I'm one of those growing and learning from this whole InfoFi ecosystem.
Fantastic. Awesome. And now we will go on over to my main man,
Neil GM. What's going on? I like stuttered over that.
I tried to give you like an awesome intro and I messed up. So I apologize.
Timmy, what the hell dude, for your main man, you're going to screw up my name.
That's crazy work, but you know, we, we, we make it, we get it how we live it out here.
Uh, no, I appreciate being here obviously today. Uh, for those of you who know me,
my name is Neil been out here in No, I appreciate being here, obviously, today. For those of you who know me, my name is Nill.
I've been out here in the Web3 world for about five years.
I've been working at Polygon for one year now as one of our ecosystem growth and success leads.
So focusing a lot on infrastructure work, making sure our teams have resources that they need.
And I'll be honest, this is my first time out of space in like, I don't even know, man, like three, four weeks.
Because I'm doing a lot of work on TikTok now.
So I'm just trying to expand my ecosystem, onboard more individuals, continue to educate, and when yaps for TikToks. That's all I have to say. Somebody please tag the team over there at Kydo.
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I'm like, yeah, we need InfoFi on places beyond crypto Twitter, which that is on the docket to get into but all
right proto KOLs how are you and why don't you go ahead and introduce
yourself hey hey I'm Nico from protocols here all super excited to be here I guess
we're changing the game and excited to give some hot takes and also see what's popping in this.
Fantastic.
Yeah, I think I used your platform.
I definitely want to get into that a little bit later in the chase.
I think it's really, really exciting.
Now, Stan, are you speaking on behalf of Dual dual duck or are there two people behind that handle
today yeah i can't introduce myself happy friday first of all to everybody hope you have a nice
you had a nice weekend we'll have a nice weekend yeah so i'm stan um and i'm founder of dual duck
but previously before i jumped into crypto world i was a karate athlete and I'm Olympic athlete.
I got bronze. Also, I'm a European champion and blah, blah, blah.
So many other achievements.
So that's what I want to achieve in crypto as well.
And I'm founder of DualDuck and DualDuck is a prediction service.
It's actually InfoFi in action because this is where opinions become the markets
and conviction gets paid.
So it's Info5 for people who don't just think,
but they dare to prove it.
Awesome. Yeah, sounds great.
And then last but not least, R2D2.
Welcome.
Hey, hey, hey.
Yeah, thanks for the invite.
I love the energy already.
Quick intro about myself.
I'm a finance guy.
Did whatever, 10 years working on different banks.
I've joined Crypto 2021.
The funny thing is I've never had a voice on Crypto Twitter,
and this December is something like hit me quite hard is probably will remember the Mika FUD that happened in December.
Mika is one of the subjects that I work in a lot.
So, yeah, I've started talking about it and I've realized I don't have a voice on crypto Twitter.
So this is how I end up on finding about about kaito and and i've been since
then uh uh no g upper i would say and uh i had this account 300 followers now i'm like whatever
almost 5 000 so uh it's been a hell of a ride and i'm extremely excited about everything that's
happening so yeah let's uh let's let's have a good time with this space. Yeah, no, actually, I definitely wanted to get you on this space.
Both you and Monica, like, both of you guys were not â
maybe I'm wrong, Monica, but, like, both of you guys didn't have a huge voice.
And then as soon as InfoFi came out, you grew and exploded,
which I thought was, like, super cool to see
and super inspirational as
someone that like also didn't
really have a big presence. I certainly
look to you and like, okay,
here's how you do it. Here's how you get bigger. So
that is awesome.
Can you hear me?
Oh, I can hear you, Monica.
Can you hear me?
She can't hear us.
Uh-oh.
Can you guys hear me?
If you just remove her and then bring her back, she'll be fine.
Okay, we're going to boot you, Monica.
Come on back.
But awesome, yeah.
So let's kind of get started. I know there's a lot of new people on the show,
but really it's like friends sitting around a coffee table having a conversation. So if you
want to say something, feel free to unmute and just start talking. If we haven't gotten to you,
just give me like the little hand waving emoji like like that or raise your hand and I'll be sure to call on you because I definitely want to get everyone up and speaking.
But Monica, I think we can hear you.
We'll do.
Yep, we can hear you now.
Yay.
Okay, awesome.
So first question.
InfoFi basically just exploded in the last, I would say, probably one to two months.
But like really started trending up maybe six months ago since December.
But how would you explain InfoFi to someone who's never heard of it before?
And then what problems in Web3 or just in general does InfoFi solve?
And it's an open floor for whoever wants to talk.
So think for a second.
I'll pass it over to you, Ruto.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I think currently how it's packaged,
it's basically just a distribution unlock.
So I think for those who've been in the space for a minute,
especially when teams want marketing or distribution for product launch or whatever it may be,
they usually have to, we're pretty limited in the different distribution channels that we can use in Web3,
especially for startups like lean teams with not much money.
In the past, previously, people would have to, you know, find either KOLs or influencers or, or you know do like campaign questing with stuff
like galaxy or something uh we're now with kind of like with info5 it allows like this really big
distribution unlock um and of course there's good things and there's bad things that come along with
that uh but yeah it's it's interesting to see it all play out. And obviously I have more to say on it, but I'm sure other people will not chime in here too.
Yeah, I highly agree with what we have said.
And I just want to chime in from a perspective of a user.
I just mentioned, you know,
my account was basically dead in December.
And since Infify came along, it has given me a platform to not just only
grow quite fast, but also make connections, meet new people. I've been, as I said, in the industry
for a while. I have a lot of knowledge, but at the same time, I wasn't very active into the
conversations. I wasn't expressing myself myself so i guess from a user
perspective that's created something quite new quite refreshing um and yeah i see a lot around
around me a lot of people you know taking this opportunity with both hands so pretty excited
you know to grow your voice on crypto twitter but not just that make make a lot more uh from it so this is just uh two cents
here yeah it's definitely allowing smaller smaller accounts to get noticed and build their own
audience which has been really really cool to see i know uh walls is like a huge i think he's like
the perfect case study for this uh i remember walls you know walls you could probably speak
on it man you had like well less than a thousand followers or like a thousand followers or something. And then I think
within six months, you like cracked 10K, less than that, actually. It was probably like two months.
So it's allowing, it's opened the doors for a lot of smaller accounts to create content about things
they're either interested in or create content because there's incentive to do so. But it's,
it can be a double-edged sword, but ultimately we're seeing a lot of really good things come out of it. But right now in the timeline, some people could probably argue
that it's good, but also there's a lot of bad mechanics to it too. Right. Yeah. It was actually
5k. I started in December with 5k late December. So yeah, what is it like three, four, four months
and we are at 18k right now. and I just say that people sometimes don't
target the right things when I saw Kaido I also I understood that like it's an
amazing opportunity to monetize but from the start the goal was to actually grow
as a creator to grow your audience to grow the following and maybe that is the
reason why I kind of went parabolic
because uh i wasn't running after the yaps i wasn't running after the additional monetization
to get on as many mindshare leaderboards as possible you know to get all the money from
the world uh the goal was a bit different and here we are so same with loudio you know
uh it's looking really good. Got insane mindshare.
Thankfully got there early and started yapping hardcore.
That also turned out to be a good bet.
We're up like a thousand followers in like a day, which is crazy.
I'm looking at Bandit too.
The guy is just like quoting his announcements of like 1,000, new thousand, new thousand followers.
He's at 22K already.
He was celebrating 21 literally yesterday.
So Laudio is helping KOLs and creators
to essentially grow, find more people,
connect with others, as well as obviously monetize.
And so bullish.
InfoFi, socialFi, guys.
It's just like, yeah, someone said double-edged sword. For me, it's double-edged. I don't know, something good. So both edges are
actually good. It's not just, yeah, not the money side, but also the growth side, but also like the,
you get so many opportunities coming your way um you
get just wow you know and uh it still seems early that's the thing i mean i hope loudio isn't like
the the top for kaito or something you know um but yeah it's looking good though so uh just
i would advise anyone who who wants to get into it all um to not run after the money But I run after you being as a creator you you running after growth
in and everything you do basically
Yeah, Monica you had your hand up for a while, but I'll let you chime in here and then we'll pass it to dual talk
Yeah, thank you so much.
Now I was gonna say, I think you asked earlier,
I mean, yes, my Twitter account changed
because of Kaito, right?
So I have been on Twitter, I don't even know since when.
I mean, I used to be in media,
so I helped create our social media presence there,
but it completely changed for me when I
think you cut out again,
Monica.
I think we lost her.
Dualduck, we'll let you
go ahead because I know you're hands
down. I don't know if you had something to add.
God damn it.
I love spaces.
Womp womp.
Okay, Ruto, I see your hand.
Can I go instead of DualDuck?
Instead of DualDuck, because probably some problems with connections.
I don't know.
I think it was on the mic side.
I have a lot of mics here
one on the headphones on the microphone on the table so yeah hey guys uh haven't had a chance
to introduce myself so i'll give you a quick overview about like myself personally i'm nick
i'm the coa dual duck and also the chief investment officer at solos group as well supporting the dual
duck from the advisor role and now at the core of the team. I will probably be an old guy here because I'm in the space from like 2014, 2015 when
I was mining like different stuff with my friends.
But since then, I was really into the like classical, I would say, Web2 InfoFi markets
like idea futures and stuff.
So I was studying that in the university specifically.
And therefore, I probably will be the
i would say grumpy guy here talking about like strange stuff that probably doesn't really connect
to kaito but still i i really like the idea that web3 uh now uh used all the old ideas that was
proposed in like 2000s and implement them and execute them exactly as it was proposed like back then.
So I think that the like kites and prediction markets are just the starting point of the
info five markets.
We have a lot more in the future, like the opinion barometers, like the idea of futures,
like something to evaluate how people think about different stuff, not just like predict
on something, but basically thinks
about different actions that is going on in the space.
So honestly, I would say that we have a lot to discuss here today.
And yeah, that would be just a small part from it.
And I think we can kick it off if someone would like to continue on that part.
Awesome. Yeah. Ruto, I saw your hand. continue on that part.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Ruto, I saw your hand.
Yeah, what was the question again?
RTD2? My question.
No, I don't believe it was a question.
It was just general chat.
No, the question was about what is InfoFi.
In the simple words, how to explain to people who doesn't know what's uh yeah the uh the el i5
got it uh info five yeah i mean i guess i would just call it it's like monetizing attention um i
think that's probably like the one-liner um best way to describe it is monetizing attention and
and incentivizing attention so um, you know, it's
generated kind of a little bit of this flywheel. But in my opinion, I think there's some downsides.
And this is probably leans into a little bit of my hot take is that right now what we see is you
get these pre-TGE boards up with incentives to talk about the product. And then after the product
is launched and after TGE is launched
and the incentives kind of run dry,
then you have a lot less incentive
for people to generate organic content around it.
Obviously, it's still good
for like community incubation, community activation.
So you might see a little bit of retention there.
But at the scale of how we're seeing it right now,
we're seeing just like very, very large spikes
in creating content around pre-TGE products, for example.
So I'm interested to see how Kaido is going to continue to play out.
I think Kaido is one of the best products we've seen in Web3 for a long time.
I think it is kind of just right now in its infancy, mainly because it's kind of pigeonholed into this echo chamber.
And if you want like true distribution, you have to hit multiple channels.
So right now it's kind of just stuck on CT, right?
So if you were to ask anyone who does stuff in crypto outside of CT, they would have zero idea what Kaido is.
They would have zero idea what Laudio is.
Mind you, that still doesn't really matter because CT generates probably billions of dollars
worth of capital movement, which is really awesome.
But to me, that's kind of the double-edged sword
is that once incentives aren't aligned with organic content,
then the organic content kind of fades out.
And I could list probably 10 products
that we've seen this with already.
Yeah, no, I think it's really interesting. I know we have like the Kaido model and then
thinking about like other platforms. I know Cookie3 just came out with their leaderboard
and mindshare. And I know Wallchain is another one where like those platforms seem to be more geared towards like there is actually a metric for loyalty, which I think will be really interesting, especially when you have like these different creators come out and they're talking about all these different projects versus, I don't know, do you want one influencer talking about your project and exclusively your project or like are you okay if they just shared so i think it's um like we're seeing a lot more competition kind of come into the space with slightly different
incentive models um like i know one big one was ape chain um just launched their leaderboard not
on kaido but on wall chain and i think part of that reason is they want people talking about
ape chain and almost exclusively ape chain so they can gear up the rewards there.
And I think it's fascinating.
And I also think there's a longevity component to it
where it's like,
how long have you been talking about this project?
Even if you were talking about it
before they got their Kaido leaderboard,
like, does that matter?
Like, do you want to reward your OGs
or like people who sustain? So I think it's actually a really interesting protocol
I'll let you go ahead and share your thoughts on that yeah I think there is a
lot of good points being said especially with projects from the
incentives before the TG right everybody kind of want to get a piece of the cake.
But then later, the next issue that we're going to face is what is happening afterwards.
And I think this is a really exciting topic.
And I also kind of want to ask people here what they think about it.
And how do you think Kayto can tackle that?
I mean, we see projects like Arbitrum that go in there and, you know, drop a big, another huge incentive for the Kaeto users to, you know, obviously get on Arbitrum, get there.
But again, these are big players, right?
So what about all the other small projects?
Will they ever have a chance to even compete with such a player?
Yeah, I guess leaving an open question here.
Cool. Yeah, I didn't see any other hands.
But I think what people maybe don't either get or really pay too much attention to is that Kaido is, Kaido, a lot of people assume
it's like a B2C product. It's actually a B2B project. So how they even monetize or generate
revenue is from businesses looking to use their platform for distribution. So they actually have
a really, that's why I think it's a great product, A, because it's generating an insane amount of revenue. But more importantly, I think what we're going to see is, and we're already kind of already
seeing it, is figuring out ways that Kaido can generate some sort of flywheel with A, their token,
and how that kind of leans into how distribution works with some of these businesses that are that are using the
platform for mindshare so right now they have a pretty good flywheel right like if you stake your
kaido then you get access to points that you can use to vote on new projects for for mindshare like
there's tons of stuff that you can do and what we're seeing with loud right now is that it's
allowed is powered by the kaido api and so the more you
talk about it the more you're generating fees on it the more that goes back into the kaido flywheel
as well as like the the value accrual for for the loud token that'll come out too so we are seeing a
flywheel a little bit already happening but i'm going to be interested to see how loud specifically
maintains some of this kind of hype after
incentives are, are kind of not as big as they are right now. So yeah, that was that was a huge
ramble. But I have a lot, a lot of thoughts rolling around about all of this in general. But overall,
Kyto is an incredible product. I talked to the founder himself actually at the event at in Denver,
and I asked him, I said, Hey, what are your guys' plans to kind of use this API outside of crypto Twitter?
And he's like, you know, I can't say much right now, but we've been thinking about it.
So I don't know.
I don't know if that's alpha or not.
But that to me is a huge deal.
Huge, huge deal.
Yeah, we know TikTok is coming very fast.
It will be by the end of this year, 100%.
And there is talk about Falk Farkaster and expanding over.
So, yeah.
Dude, I'm curious to see how that will even work on TikTok,
mainly because you have to think the target audiences
are completely different.
Like, if you're on CT, you know how staking works. You can name 26 wallets off the top of your head. You can identify
different DEXs. Like you can name the top 10 chains that are pre-TGE right now, right?
TikTok, you go on TikTok and Neil could probably speak on this too. You go on TikTok,
nobody knows what a wallet is. Nobody knows what staking is. Nobody knows what a contract address is.
So for me, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays over or how that crosses over.
I think what we might see is creators from CT actually going over to TikTok and trying to see
how they might be able to gather mindshare there. And that will be interesting because I think that's ultimately what's needed
in crypto and web three
is that we need more and more
and more distribution channels
because right now we're just stuck in this echo chamber
for new products going to market
right now on crypto Twitter.
So I'm just going to take this one.
And so number one, Ruto,
yeah, man, I've heard I'm talking about my people like that.
You call my people dumb over on TikTok. That's crazy work uh but it's also true um so no what i'll what i'll say on it
and in my general comment uh when i was raising my hand was like more so on the side of like
rudo's absolutely absolutely right on like the b2c method like if you guys don't know this crypto
twitter is arguably the worst platform to onboard
people into crypto on uh and it's not even close like and if you guys are telling yourselves that
it's that's that's that's not true you're just like lying to yourselves i'm sorry to be very
blunt about it but it just isn't the best way to get onto crypto uh nobody wants to educate each
other here uh nobody wants to onboard effectively we are passing around the same 10 000 super users to all the different breakout dApps and things that are moving.
And that's why you see the algorithm move like it does. When something happens on Twitter,
crypto Twitter specifically, everybody knows about it, right? And we're all in our little
bubbles. We float around, we do our thing, but it's not going to allow new entries, right?
Because it's scary. Why would you ever want to jump into a space where everybody is so hostile
and everyone's so entrenched in their encampments? It's not the way to do things and it's not fun at all. Sure, is it a great hub
for knowledge and catching news and all that kind of stuff? Absolutely. But for onboarding education,
it's a trash platform, right? So what I will say is for the direction of how things move on TikTok,
right? The discoverability avenues, the conversations that
are happening. There's millions of users over there that need education. They need people
from crypto Twitter to come over. But honestly, crypto Twitter people are scared. They're scared
to change their platform. They're scared to jump into something. And they're scared to start from
zero, to be honest. And so I challenge people that haven't jumped into it yet and given it a chance. I did a live stream this morning. In one hour, I can get a thousand
unique viewers. It's that easy. The discoverability is insane, right? If I put out a video, I have
an opportunity to go viral on every single post that I do if I'm following trends. The discoverability
is the way to onboard people. And so when Kaido adjusts, when other InfoFi platforms do adjust
into more of a B2C model where they're actually looking to onboard individuals into their ecosystem
and bring more mass adoption avenues, that is how they're going to approach TikTok, right? That is
how it's going to be most effective. And I implore people, I encourage people, I will coach you
through the algorithm over on TikTok to ensure that you are reaching more individuals of value,
not just the shilling people that are doing things for, you know, pumped out fun meme coins,
and not just the XRP homies that are hoping to God that XRP goes to $10,000 or whatever
stupid number they're trying to give that, uh, those that, that like optimism goal for,
I will make sure that you find the value creators and that you gain like opportunities for reach
because it is very different. It's very fun
and it's honestly very refreshing because when you come over there with knowledge and you don't
have a bias, these people embrace you over on TikTok because they are so used to the shilly
people. They are so used to the pump fund guys and they're so used to the rug pulls and the trash
that comes through here on a TikTok timeline. So when you come over and actually provide value and you don't show bias, you instantly
shoot up the rankings in their mind and they trust you and they jump in and they actually believe in what you're
doing. So I think it's going to be an evolution of how Kaido really presents
themselves way more focusing on an onboarding avenue than just focusing on what the B2B model
is currently.
Monica, we're going to do it third time the charm, passing it over to you.
I hope so. I hope so. Okay, I have so many thoughts, and I'm going to disagree with some
of what has been said. But look, the first thing is, I think one of the things Kaito has changed
is the education part of it, right? Because learning, teaching by learning is a thing. I
have learned so much about different
projects i've been exposed to new projects and i will say that it's not on kaito to maintain people
on the projects it's up to the projects i think the one the ones that are doing it right are like
mutant uh somnia who are asking you to do things to be on their testnet, to actually launch your wallet, to do things in a way that
builds that flywheel. So I think we're putting, I think we're putting too much on Kaito. I think
Kaito's top of the funnel when it comes to consumer outreach, right? I think there's some
great, you know, I love what Walls does. I love what R2D2 does. I mean, the content they create
has helped me be exposed to new projects and really
learn. So I will tell you that I think it changed how people are learning on crypto Twitter. I
completely agree about Tech Talk. Look, I have a good friend who does content in Spanish.
He went in two months to 125,000 followers and all of his content is about crypto. So there's a great potential and
opportunity on crypto Twitter. And it is to onboard new people because we are talking in
the bubble. But remember, we are the testers, right? The reason I love Farcaster because I'm
a big Farcaster person. I don't know how I sleep because I'm on too many platforms.
But I love Farcaster because I actually discovered Wayfinder and Newton there months before they were on Kaito.
And I was able to get involved in those projects.
And it helped me be on their leaderboards, actually.
And actually, I did really well with Wayfinder because I knew the product.
But I also was able to onboard new people to it.
And I'm still very active on Wayfinder because I love the product.
So I didn't drop off after the token.
And I don't think there's going to be a season two, but I'm still bullish on the project. So
I think we have to think about it like a marketing funnel. It's top of the funnel for Kaito. You have
to create your own flywheel that includes ensuring people use your product. I think Infinex is another
great example. And I think other projects have been smart where they're not on the leaderboard,
like OKK Wallet, right?
But they're partnering with all the other projects
that are part of Kaito and they're growing.
So I'm a big Infify Maxie,
as somebody called me yesterday.
I think it's a great way to attract new users.
It's a great way to learn and get exposure.
And it's a great way to get people to teach about your content in a new,
a different way.
Go ahead.
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks. Yeah.
And I would honestly say that I agree on the like teaching through learning
idea,
but I will also add that a lot of people are definitely
like scared to try something new even if you like give them the guideline even if you give them all
the opportunities and stuff they just need to do the actions uh they are like terribly scared of it
and in my opinion uh this is like the idea where not only kaito but also like the prediction markets
comments comes into the game simply because like right now you can start doing something and touch against real world actions
that is happening in the world it shouldn't be like uh the classical way you see it in the news
and don't know what to do about that but in general you can like uh try to understand how something works. In the meantime, you can hedge against like your own journey
if you are scared that you will fuck up in the meantime.
So yeah, I would say that teaching through learning
is definitely a great idea.
So you can like start your blog.
Meanwhile, you can like hedge against some crazy stuff
that going on around.
So you will be always not in zero, but probably in a big plus,
simply because there are even more opportunities to earn in general.
You can not only create the valuable content,
and you can not only monetize on that content,
but you can also create, for example, if you're talking about the prediction markets, create the predictions around your
content. So it will be, it will boost your value when you showcase your users. It can
be on TikTok as well, for example, that you basically boost the value by creating something
around it on top. You are not just selling the information
you are like building the blocks around it so it it's like a stronghold uh for for any people that
are like uh had a lot of rocks in their life and they don't want to come back and you say that like
hey guys there are zero risk you potentially, the only stuff you can lose
is like some small part of your time.
But even with that, if you're scared to lose
even this small part of your time,
you can hedge against that.
And I think that's the main idea of the InfoFi market.
Because as one of the probably biggest investment bankers
in Eastern Europe have said,
and I really like that quote,
he's always betting against
his home country on the football, simply because if the home country will win, he will have
the great emotions.
If the home country will lose, he will get the money.
Yeah, and that's the idea probably that InfoFi can expand in general, because all of the
time you are bullish about something.
When you will do something, you will be happy if something will happen in your way that you have planned in that way.
On the other side, if you can hedge against that and something won't go the way you have planned, you will earn money.
Yeah, you will earn something at least on top of that. And I think that's a great opportunity
where we can boost the ideas that was proposed
in their early 2000s and stuff.
So yeah, I think we are on the edge
to have a lot more new products, not only on top of Kaito,
but complementary to Kaito, that will build that InfoFi
infrastructure and will finally give
the utility to the users and they can finally do stuff in any way they want and they won't
be scared about something they can always have an edge so yeah i think r2d2 had his hands up for
like quite a time so we'll pass the mic to him and yeah probably he
will continue with the idea thanks thanks for that um yeah well look so much has been said but
i want to go back to some of the fundamental issues that we're having in this industry and
i see on this stage a lot of ogs here uh back in 2022 if you were a project let's say you raised
1 million and you're thinking what should i do with this money marketing wise um i i'm not gonna
name things i'm not gonna jump into too heavy stuff here but what i want to say is like a social
injection campaign was like 10k right just to pump your numbers, but dead followers, dead engagement, dead everything.
Distribution-wise for your product, you could get K-All's campaigns, but most of them
were not really, you know, paying back your investment really. So what I'm saying here is like without hype, without, you know, the all nitty-gritty that was happening, you couldn't
actually put your brand out there,
your project out there, your product.
Fast forward today,
Kaito is bringing up some tools,
not necessarily the educational side of things of everything.
And personally, I've been very vocal with Kaito directly
and giving them feedback on so many different things,
whatever that's community, whatever that's's even i did a lot of quality assurance in terms of like mind share in terms
of yaps in terms of leaderboards and so on but what i'm trying to point out here is you're now
a project right you come to kaito you spend 10k sorry a hundred thousand dollars to get a leader
board for a year and then what is it that you do next?
Because look, there are 37, I believe, or 36, sorry,
30-something PTG projects currently on Kaito.
And some of them are highly active with their community and doing amazingly well,
even though they have announced quite good rewards or not really.
But others are dead.
Why?
Because there is no engagement there is no
you know the community is not there yet and i do want to mention here one last thing before i start
because i'm sure others want to want to jump into here and into the discussion uh from a from a
product discovery perspective newton um just announced today um they just had 36 000 agents activated and a big chunk of those
agents actually came through the fact that the yappers were incentivized to do so that to me is
is is crazy how would you get you know these many people doing and testing your product
to see is it working is it not working and so on and so forth. Yeah. What happens after the, the,
the post-TG that's a different game ball also on the project side.
If you don't educate your community, if you don't incentivize your community,
if you don't make your community loyal, they're not, they're not going to stay
there. I'm not going to stay there. If you don't incentivize me to be there,
if you don't have a well product, why should I stay? Just because I have to believe in something? No, I don't incentivize me to be there if you don't have a well product why should
i stay just because i have to believe in something no i don't believe in anything when it comes down
to a product i want a good product in front of me i want to test it i want to make money with it
i want to refer it to my friends and so on and so forth so just a couple of of ideas i can go on
with this for probably an hour but i'm just going to stop here. And I would quickly add on top, totally agree as an ex-VC guy, like in 2022, you see like
100K interaction for any kind of Web3 app, especially consumer app, you're like investing
right away.
Then we had like the TMA rise, like Telegram mini apps.
And so we had this problem that everyone starts like
pulling the traffic and all the apps probably had this uh 20 to 100k subscribers all the apps
has had people who are doing some things but this was like even in 2022 it was also the
all the bullshit and you can check it you can can verify it. And I think the way InfoFi transforms that is that you're right now,
you can currently verify the community.
You can check if they are active.
You can check if they're alive.
And it definitely like for 100% boosts the way you can make the due diligence
around the projects and therefore invest.
And most of the projects are still dead.
They are still not launched since 2024 or 2023, simply because in a moment, all the people, not only in the
city, but also in the investor space and stuff, have become KPI based. I'll need you to have
the operating business model. I'll need you to have the people who are actively building
the platform. I'll need you to have the community that are loyal and active on the platform.
And right now, I think the only way to build a successful project, not only in InfoFi, but in general, is to actually create the loyal community, actually track it and be KPI based, not just like random pump and dump tokens
or like random raises that won't work
in the current market from my perspective.
So yeah, I definitely agree on that point.
And I think we will have even more products
that will like simplify the wave,
not only for the investors,
but for people to make the correct decisions
or at least mindful decisions in general.
Let me add something to what r2d dude was saying and also nick uh because as we all agree that
information itself becomes a financial asset now because it's tradable it's ownable and monetizable
and now when we are living in the era of soft debt internet,
because we know that nearly 50% of all internet activity is coming from bots.
And people need to really understand what part of our communities are alive.
We need to engage with them and what people what motivate
what motivates people is of course the some interest emotion uh triggering stuff or like
earning opportunities right so not to exclude kite or any other services uh but also with dual duck you know you guys if you want to
boost your community or make them give them the opportunity to earn some money or just engage with
them so to make them active and to see what real part of your community is live and not just bots
or dead accounts.
So this is how you can engage with them by creating predictions for them, letting them making their bets and to see what will be the outcome.
And then this will create the discussion.
You know, it will raise up the interest of your people, of your community.
That's how you can know, can know what's interesting for them.
Because you will actually run them around your project and about your future plans, upcoming events, your updates, and so on.
So you have your topic.
You can engage with your audience by doing the predictions for them around yourself.
And this is how you can
if because as r2d said we all need to incentivize our communities but where can we get the resources
to incentivize them like because most of all they want to uh get earn some money for you know staying
in the internet inside some products in the apps or the websites so how to
give them this opportunity right but when you give them the predictions where they can bet
against each other this is how they can win something earn something and enjoy the process
so yeah we like build that is like use you can use theDAC as an instrument or a tool for engaging and monetizing your audience.
Yeah, I actually had a question written down, and it was on something that Neil was saying earlier, which I actually think is fascinating. There's obviously the
finance everyone talked about earning and things like that. One way you make a whole bunch of money
is just seeing a trend and being very early to it, novel. That but then like, so that's almost stage one. And then there's stage two where after a trend starts seeing how it can grow.
So like what Neil was saying about like, there are other platforms, right?
So like crypto Twitter is its own bubble.
And I would say it's probably pretty early on most trends.
I mean, like you don't really realize how early it is.
Like things that absolutely take over the timeline, there's so many times, I know personally, where I've been like, I see something, and it does a 10x from the time I see it on crypto Twitter or 5x or whatever.
And then I'm like, oh, I'm too late to the game.
Like, I'm not going to become exit liquidity.
And then I see the project rip another five or six x like i know recently one thing that's very popular is not info 5 but like good vibes club where like oh man i'm late
to it and like it just kept going and i felt like every time like oh it minted out and now it's like
did a 5x it's at 0.2 eth nope i'm too late oh it's 0.4 eth i'm too late whatever. But that aside, I do think we're going to see a lot of platforms that are
in InfoFi expand beyond just crypto Twitter, right? And I think that for a lot of creators,
they're probably missing a huge boat. I mean, when you look at big creators on YouTube, let's say, they have a huge audience that goes so far beyond what
crypto Twitter actually thinks is influential. I mean, you look at some crypto YouTube creators,
and they have 200,000, a million subscribers, right? And like on crypto Twitter, you have an
audience of 30 to 40,000 in your big account on YouTube. It's like, oh, yeah, that you can do that
in an afternoon, like, you're basically a nobody when it's that big so i think we're going to see a lot of different
platforms come out and i know um and hopefully they said they would be here later but a platform
like ethos has been very up front about creating reputation not just on crypto twitter but
expanding to other platforms which is is really, really cool.
And then you can actually, one thing that really excites me is there are other platforms,
but also other industries, right? So like, yeah, it's really cool that people can talk about their
favorite projects on Twitter, but like, what if InfoFi just goes beyond that? And then people can start talking about their favorite place to buy yarn or favorite service to, like, have a subscription meal box or, like, things like that.
You can actually create InfoFi around that.
So, like, where do we think it's going to go beyond just crypto Twitter?
Twitter. And that's kind of a topic open for discussion. And then before we actually get
And that's kind of a topic open for discussion.
onto that is I want to give a new speaker, Ram, you just got on stage. So we'll give you a few
moments to do that. Everyone can introduce yourself, Ram. Everyone else think about kind
of where we see InfoFi going in the next call at six months to a year.
Hey, thanks, man. So this is Ram. I'm one of the core contributors at OpenLedger. by going in the next call, it's six months to a year.
Hey, thanks man. So this is Ram, I'm one of the core contributors
at Open Ledger.
We have focused AI based blockchain,
which enables people to build AI models
using data that has been contributed by users
across the globe, right?
In a fact, what we also focus on is information, but not on how it happens on Twitter and stuff.
We want people to contribute information and we want to reward them for that.
Most of AI models think of it to be like a human brain.
Most of the models that you see today, larger language models, are very generic.
Think of that to be an undergrad, but those are not useful as it is if you
want models to be useful you need to specialize them you need to get data from people from
enterprises and probably like smaller companies right and one way to do that is to incentivize
them to come forward and contribute the data provide information for that what um i would
like to understand more about info5 as like any AI model or any kind
of services out there, quality of the data and the content that is being contributed is very
important. Like with InfoFi, it's great that we see a lot of people talking about various protocols
and stuff like that. I'm not sure if you guys talked about this one, but one thing I would
love to understand more about, how can we make sure that there is high quality of data that's being contributed and people get rightly rewarded
for that like if you go take a look at youtube right people get rewarded for providing content
to youtube only if your content is good if it's of higher quality then you start to get rewarded
and the more the higher quality of the content the better rewards you get right so it's an
the incentive is built like that
it's built in a way that people have to watch your video if it's good then they you can pay for it
but with what's happening with kaito and all of that a lot of a lot of them is the copy pasta
right people just take content and then like they try to copy it around and probably use chat gpt and
all that to actually write content right how can we enable
quality over quantity right what is the best way like in our case we always use attribution
we figure out the biggest impact someone provides for their data on an ai model if that data was
useful in doing a constable change to the model and it impacted on the model's output,
then they get rewarded.
So it's quality over quantity.
But how do you implement that for, you know,
stuff that's happening with Laudio and other stuff?
If you have any thoughts on here,
I would love to learn from the people over here.
Just would love to jam on that.
Awesome.
Yeah, well, R2D2, I saw your hand go up yeah thanks to that yeah well look i i think ram
is is bringing up uh you know very important topic to us and um um i did myself what um last
year training some ai models uh on me come and i know a bit about this, but I've also studied extensively, I would say,
what's happening with Kaito specifically,
not necessarily other platforms,
but kind of a few bases here.
Kaito at the moment runs a different numbers of Argos,
whatever language models, if you want to call them that way,
specifically for YAPS.
So for YAPS, we know
already that's only about attention. So nothing about quality. It has some free settings there,
but it's all about attention. Is your content getting attention or not? And who's actually
engaging with your content? So this is number one. Number two, then we have settings for each
leaderboard within the ecosystem, right? So each project actually can have their own settings for each leaderboard within the ecosystem, right? So each project actually can have their own settings
for whatever they want to incentivize.
However, the entire platform as it's currently built
is very into his infancy.
So if we're expecting actually everything to be filtered through,
that's not going to happen overnight.
It is a learning process, I think, both on Kaito's side,
but also us educating people around us.
Stop using AI to generate your entire content.
Use AI tools to get better at your content,
but not necessarily just copy pasta.
So it's a bit on both sides of the element,
and I don't really believe personally that this is going to improve
tremendously over the next two three four months and yes as we see more specialized
language models specifically even to train that on on crypto twitter on what's happening on uh you
know other platforms as well i think we're going to start seeing better and better creators you
know being incentivized for better better quality rather than what's currently happening in into the
space so we just have to be a bit more patient i think we have to educate a bit more with this you know, being incentivized for better quality rather than what's currently happening into the space.
So we just have to be a bit more patient.
I think we have to educate a bit more with this.
But I believe that, you know,
where we're heading towards is absolutely fascinating,
both from an AI perspective,
but both from, you know, a creative perspective,
project perspective,
incentivizing the right users and and the right you know community
individuals so these are kind of some thoughts i want to change in here
yeah and definitely just just agree on that and definitely just to add on top uh is that uh right
now there are a lot of like uh content factories that are just like doing i don't know random
tick tocks etc etc with all this like brain rot stuff and stuff.
But I think in the long run, we are now in the development phase.
So in the long run, it should be like filtered out by itself.
It have happened to like the Web3 Venture.
It have happened to all of the bullshit projects.
It in some terms have happened to the meme coins uh back in the winter of this
year so like from my perspective the general idea uh like on how we can i don't know filter quality
over quantity uh is basically to like create the engagement content that people likes and probably
if people likes some sort of a bullshit we need to provide
that if you want like some specific audience you need to create like this specific content for a
small uh audience because sometimes you just need to create a content for a million people with one
dollar sometimes you need to create it for 100 people like with 10 000 each and therefore you
can monetize it in different
ways and you will still earn pretty much the same amount of money if you're if you if you know how
to build the business models in general so that's my take on the ai part but i would also like to
add on the like exact uh first question about like where are we heading And I really like the idea that was presented earlier
in this decade about could gambling save science
and about the idea futures, because from my perspective,
if a lot of people are thinking in the same specific way,
then in the nearest future, you would probably find
this idea realized and executed in a proper way
with the proper approach.
Because if you are in the, like I would say startup space for quite some time, you definitely
remember all of that like personal data monetization platforms when you can like applaud all the
stuff, share the info about yourself and use and have only targeted ads onto you that you would
like to check and you would like to check and
you would like to probably think about.
It was some kind of the data market and the approach that didn't really work out.
Yes.
So I think we will in the nearest future get to the better approach.
And one of the approaches that I envision right now is like the idea of futures.
You can check the article by Robin Hanson if you're nerd in that kind of stuff.
But basically, it can speed up any industry in which we are like, for example, for us,
it can be Web3 in general.
For someone, it could be general science or some specific narrative in the science and
stuff. And the main idea is that people can, I would say, bet, not actually bet, but trade on the
ideas.
And if some idea will be boosted up, we will have it in the operation and probably the
same way as the pump science did on the Solana, not really effectively, but they tried.
We can have this like monetization.
We can filter this monetization gap for quality projects
that actually solving the real problems
that we have in the space simply through people
who are engaging with those projects
and supporting those projects, both through monetization
and like donates or like crowdfunding, et cetera. And on the other side, through engagement, user-generated content, et cetera.
So I think that's the new way for the, not only crowdfunding,
but the new way to build the new Kickstarter in the space.
And therefore, you can probably think of it as the next step in how we will engage
and how we will create the quality projects.
So I think it probably answers both the way we are headed right now
and the long-term quality over quantity.
So, yeah.
Yeah, I actually think that the InfoFi space is, I mean, you touched on markets a little bit, but I actually think seeing the trust markets on Ethos is absolutely fascinating where you can actually, literally, creators can tokenize themselves, KOLs. um kols and um i know we see it all over the place i mean there's um uh what was the fantasy
top is one for creators that have like creator markets i know there's the trust market on ethos
and like i know i saw maybe a while ago it may have been eight years ago at this point, like in 2017, 2018, somebody was like made a joke about tokenizing, tokenizing people, right?
Like you can tokenize yourselves and create a token for yourself.
And like it was a total joke.
And then at this point, we're almost getting to that stage, obviously not with people, but with user accounts where people can like say, Hey, here's how trustworthy I am.
You can bet on my reputation. And then you actually have other people deciding like if
someone is trustworthy enough or will have so much influence. And then if it's actually overcooked,
like you'll have people betting against them to make money. And it's a really, really interesting
topic. But actually speak of the devil. I didn't even mean to tee you up like that,
but Serpin, if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself
and just kind of talk about that, and we will give you the floor.
My ears were burning. I could hear it from a distance.
I heard you guys talking about Ethos, and I was like, I have to go be there.
No, this is good timing.
I mean, I told you I'd be here about this time.
So are you sure you didn't tee that up for me?
I don't know.
I am kind of sus.
No, thanks for having me.
Great to be here.
Excited to talk to all of you all today and talk a little about ethos.
It's cool to hear you talking about ethos markets.
Like ethos markets is being slept on and it's my fault.
I don't market it enough, but we're trying to incorporate it back into the ethos for itself but i also think that it's one of the most
interesting things out there this concept of being able to like speculate on someone's credibility
or trust um it just doesn't tie back into the ethos score enough. So anyways, yeah, I totally agree with you. And, um, but thanks for having me up here. Yeah. Also, I just wanted to get your thoughts. I swear to God,
I don't know if someone brought it up, but I saw someone talk about it. And then, um, we were also
talking to like one thing with info five, and this is just, I'm going to fan boy out because I,
I'm a huge ethos fan they did not
pay to advertise it i just love the platform in general um there's no sponsors on this show
nothing like that but you guys just released a um like you literally just released it i don't know
an hour ago or so a tool that you can actually see the metrics of people that engage with certain content right
so like there's a big problem especially once you start monetizing it you're going to have bots come
on and try to uh uh game it or people will buy followers buy all of these things and obviously
those accounts don't have a high reputation um or, it's very obvious to see that they're not trusted.
So you just released and I'll let you talk about the tool,
but basically for the audience of like, you can tag,
is it ethos validator, ethos agent, something like that.
And it shows the actual metrics on the,
on the interactions with a given post.
And I think that's actually fascinating.
Yes, thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, I just added it to the space for anyone that wanted to see it.
But yeah, thanks for bringing that up to you.
I'm excited.
We basically have this ethos agent on Twitter that we've always had as a way for people
to save content permanently on chain.
Kind of like, oh oh i saw this guy talking
about this thing and i want to make sure that we always have that and uh you know so it basically
saves it as a review for people and you don't have to go to ethos it just it's completely within
twitter you just use the command and the other thing that had been on my mind lately is this
concept of just like man everyone knows there's so much like crap out there in terms of data.
Like, I've written articles in the past of like, it costs like 40 cents to make a tweet look like it's like completely gone bonkers in terms of virality.
But in reality, like no one is actually engaging or interacting with it.
I mean, actually, it costs, like, four cents.
You can pay for 100,000 views for less than a cent.
And this has always been a struggle because everyone wants to look more credible.
Everyone wants to look like they have more value behind them,
that people really like what they're talking about and like what they're doing,
and they want to stand out. And, mean it's true if you see a tweet and it has four comments
and one like you're like okay I guess no one cares about this and so I wanted a way to kind
of bring those two things together and say like hey we have this ethos data now we we have data
on who is reputable and now that we have like over 150,000 reviews,
like there's a pretty good amount of people
that have at least been reviewed or vouched for on Ethos.
What if we brought that data in,
looked at all the people that liked,
well, not liked, we can't get likes.
We looked at all the people that commented
or quote tweeted or retweeted that tweet
and gave you back some stats of like,
well, like what is the content score of this
in terms of who is engaging?
What's the quality of engagement?
And so it's driven by two things.
One is how reputable or how many reputable people interacted with that, which there's
not a ton of reputable people yet on Ethos, but it could be good signal if it exists.
And two, if anyone that has any activity on their ethos profile
engaged with it, which is usually means like, if you don't have any reviews or any vouchers,
you have a very high likelihood of being a bot. And so my goal there was just make it super easy
to both show and understand the quality score of a tweet and get to a space where everyone can
have a better understanding of like no no there's signal here because this is getting really high
engagement rate from like good people versus oh my god like these people absolutely paid for this
this is a bunch of random bots that have like you know zero engagement on ethos or zero kind of value in
terms of those accounts.
I absolutely love it.
I have so much that I kind of want to add, but I'll hand it over to Monica and let her
talk because she has her hand up.
He knows I'm a huge fan of ethos.
We've been in spaces before.
So two things. Number one, I love that. I love the example's we've we've been in spaces before so uh two things you number one I
love that I love the example that you guys showed comparing the two spaces but you also did a post
I think yesterday and I'm gonna go back to Laudio um where you talked about ultra honestly the the
reason I started to explore um Laudio before it became what it became I think Walls was one of the
first people that talked about it but then I looked at her score on Ethos and I was like, oh my God, look, 1671, super reputable,
right? But then you talked about like the difference in the score or her reputation,
but then the difference of Laudio on Ethos. I'd love for you to talk about like, are you looking
at at some point bringing together founders and their projects to see how those two combine?
I'm just curious because you talked about it a little bit on Twitter.
But I think it's fascinating the way that you're really looking at reputation and how it feeds into people now looking at projects on Kaido, right?
You look at the founder, you look at the project, their reputation, and then you maybe want to engage with it.
Totally. And I mean, that has always been the intent, right, is you can go look at Laudio.
And, you know, for what it's worth, there are a lot of projects in this space where like the
devs don't even identify themselves. And I think we can raise the bar a little bit there and at
least get some signal out of when devs do identify themselves and associate themselves with
the project and in this in this example of loudio ultra is someone i know someone i've talked to
plenty and um is a like well respected and known dev but their like association to Laudio, I mean, Laudio was created, you know, five days ago, six days ago.
It represented signal in the market that Laudio was something interesting. At least it was created
by someone who has good intentions, who is backed by other people, and therefore might be worth your
time. And there is this disconnect right now between like, I have a new project, and I'm the
founder of that project, even though that's how you definitely like try to interpret things when you're thinking about new stuff.
And so there are some ideas we had about like, how do you bring two accounts together?
We actually have some new functionality coming in, you know, the very near term that kind of solves this problem too.
the very near term that kind of solves this problem too.
It's a little bit more project oriented and shows things like who are the people on the
team and what is their ethos score?
So I don't want to spoil too much, but it's been something that's absolutely on our mind
so much so that we're building things that help that.
But it's not in the exact thing that I explained yesterday of like, wait, we should just let
Ultra like combine their profile with Laudio. exact thing that I explained yesterday of like, wait, we should just let Ultra
like combine their profile with Laudio.
Like there is something there that we could do,
but this is really the first time that's ever happened.
That's actually cool.
Yeah, I just checked.
Sorry, I didn't know about Ito's before,
but I just checked and
you guys doing great things so talking about the content
one of the things that i actually was thinking about too like with info fi in general of like
there's this how much data should be free versus how much is paid.
Like I was on a space the other day with,
when moon of Kaido and basically we were just,
I'm like,
it would be really cool.
I mean,
we have the,
you can see who the top influencers are as far as AI,
but like,
we don't have very many verticals or visibility into like, who are the
top KOLs in gaming? Who are the top KOLs in DeFi? And I like using InfoFi, not necessarily for like
the creators who are using it to earn money or projects who are using it to get like attention
and more users, but like from someone who's actually genuinely interested in certain content
like my favorite thing that i did when kaido first came out was looked at everyone with the
top mind share and created a list of 300 plus creators and like just read what they said um and
then ethos came out and it was great because i'm like, okay, now who can you actually trust? And I think there's a lot of power in that.
But then when I asked when moon about it,
he like,
you're not asking like that.
That's not the right question.
It's like,
should that data be free or should it be paid for different projects?
And like,
it brought up a really interesting point of like some info five projects.
I mean,
like ethos, I look at them like, this is great. I don't know how you guys make money because it seems like you're just giving
everything away for free um but it's fascinating and like i kind of want to hear everyone's take
on it both like people who are building and then people who i would say i hate the word consumer
but like users and people who are consuming the
content put out like is there
is there a space in between
that like what should
be free and what should be paid for
yeah open question
I mean but like
we're in web 3 right
the information
should be democratized and available to
everyone
that is the way that we have designed ethos from the start is The information should be democratized and available to everyone.
That is the way that we have designed ethos from the start is you leave a review.
A review is on chain.
You vouch for someone that vouches on chain.
The only thing that does not exist on chain right now is the scores themselves. The score is at the so-called intelligence level layer kind of thing.
Like it looks at the data layer that exists and is available to anyone.
And then it creates an adaptation, its own belief of like, what does credibility mean given these parameters?
And so I've always believed that the data should always be available and on-chain and consumable by anyone.
Because one, the data doesn't exist yet.
And two, you want that data to be 100% censorship proof.
If we get to a place, and this is some of the danger of depending purely on a centralized system,
is if you get to a place where you're depending on centralization
and you don't know what's going into the algorithms, then it can lead to, I mean, all kinds of sort of bad things that happen, right?
Like you want to know what goes into the algorithm that determines what your credibility is.
And it is our job to make that information available, but also more importantly, ensure that all the things
that are driving it are on chain.
And so, yeah, I mean, you brought up the question of like, well, I don't know how you guys are
making money because you're like, you're just giving away everything for free.
Well, the reality of Web3 is everything, what the space optimizes for is, in my opinion, is information should be accessible by anyone.
And everything will eventually go to zero in terms of when there's no moat around.
I mean, like Web3 has a moat problem in general.
It's really difficult to build moats for your product.
You go build Uniswap and then Uniswap just gets like 14 times and they spin it up on every single chain.
And so building moats is really difficult.
And so I believe that the friction to creating net new things is basically nothing.
And it's really difficult to build moats.
And when I think about ethos, like I want to remove the moat entirely.
I want to make the protocols data the moat.
So the reviews themselves, the vouchers themselves, they become the moat entirely. I want to make the protocols data the moat. So the reviews themselves,
the vouchers themselves, they become the moat. And if we can create this platform on top of all of
the data that we have, the reviews and the vouchers, then we can go build products that
we've never been able to build in Web3 so far. Things that allow us to leverage trust, leverage reputation,
lean into the concept that we actually know who the counterparty is. There are many things that
we can build that we've never been able to build because we've never had this platform of trust.
And so if I'm trying to like, I know I said a few things that might sound kind of confusing,
even when I think about it backwards, but like're trying to build a moat around the data.
We want that data to be free and accessible by anyone.
And the businesses that we want to build on top, the business we want to enable on top, is what we get from unlocking this definition of trust, from unlocking the ability to trust people. And the easiest example, the most obvious example,
well, especially if you're a little older like me,
if you go back to 1994, 1995, 1996,
eBay was just getting started.
eBay was a marketplace where it was 100% anonymous.
And eBay struggled because there was no strong way
to know that like, hey, I'm shipping this thing
to another person across the country.
Will they ship it?
Will they give me the money for it?
So they had to make PayPal.
Will they like definitely,
like will we have a good transaction
was the item described as like it was listed.
Like this is the anonymous marketplace problem that that existed in the early 90s do you know how ebay solved that they they
added a review system they added accountability they put something at risk in terms of like how
the marketplace worked and like even that concept is basically impossible today unless you have some sort of like underlying trust
foundation and so those are the things that we're looking to enable and why i always talk about
ethos as like you know everyone says info fi like yeah i think ethos markets is info fi i think what
we're building is infrastructure for social layer of web 3. and that is a very different kind of approach to how I think most people have
tried to tackle this problem. I do have one question. So you talked about, I think the hard
part with Web3, yes, I think information should be accessible, but at the same time, many projects
are trying to make money, right? You're trying to monetize. We also know that we're going to have the issue of AI running out of
data, right? Information. So how do you bring everything together? I know there's projects
like Open Ledger and others that are trying to make, create models that include some sort of
compensation by you providing content.
But I'm curious how you see that, I don't know if I'm making sense,
but coming together, right?
The need to monetize Web3 projects, the need for data and information in AI and the opportunity that gives people,
but then democratizing and making information accessible.
I think the way to think about it in like our kind of faux economy of ethos is
whenever you go write a review for someone or whenever you go out for someone, you are creating
value for someone else. If I see that you, Monica, went and said something really positive about R2D2,
well, that helps me now understand more about who R2D2 is and that you created value for me.
And that content creation looks a little bit different because it's in the form of a review.
It feels kind of weird.
You're like, no one ever got paid for writing a Yelp review on if they liked the Chinese joint down the road.
No one gets paid for that, right?
Like, that seems weird.
And I'm not necessarily saying you would get paid for that, right? Like, that seems weird. And I'm not necessarily saying you would get paid
for it, but there are ways that we can create kind of this economy of how content creators or
review creators or who's helping us understand who is trustworthy, rewarding them through that value
creation that you create for other people. And the way that it looks today is like if you are
contributing to ethos, and we don't expect, you know, everyone to like, we expect like 1% of our
population to be writing reviews and vouching people. You know, we're rewarding you today in
the form of contributor XP, which is just like Reddit karma is something that you put on your
profile and you feel good about. But there are ways in the future that we could imagine, like kind of kickstarting, bootstrapping
that economy to helping those people that are creating that content get value from it.
Because you are creating value for someone else.
And so when I think about, you know, it's easy.
I know a lot more than most people about what our plans are.
And it's difficult to talk
about those plans sometimes given how things work in this space. But it's easy for me to see how we
can set that economy up very easily. And it's just a part of getting to that point where you start to
like, it's like a train just getting started, you, you kind of start seeing how it's working. And
then you're like, Oh, shit, actually, wait, there's a bunch of people farming like wait a second these people are like we're
rewarding these people with contributor xp and all they're doing is putting ai into the reviews and
like that's not helpful and how do we fight against that and and so it's all a uh you know
a learning experience for us to continue to adapt and make sure that we get that model correct over time.
But right now, we have to keep it pretty lean because there are going to be things like people
writing AI reviews and people abusing the system. And we have to figure out how to reward the people
that are writing real, authentic content. Most importantly, that content that drives value to other people.
And content creation today looks mostly like value creation in the form of entertainment.
I look at my phone, I watch a reel, I thought it was funny, it's entertaining to me.
A content creator created value for someone else.
Ours is a little bit different, but I think that's the right way to think about the content creation economy of ethos, which not
many people really think about at all. That's fascinating. I love this discussion. I know we
have a new speaker on stage, so I want to give her a chance to introduce herself. Chetana, I hope I'm
pronouncing that right. If you want to go ahead and introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about
what you do, and then just add your thoughts to the conversation. Absolutely. Thank you, Timmy. Hey, everyone.
I'm Che. Go by Che. Chetna is good. And I'm the CEO and co-founder of Zorro, which is a
sort of a flip side of what InfoFi does is we monetize the intelligence on chain, right?
So we are the data contributor platform, which is more decentralized, globally sourced, unbiased, which is what I think the discussion earlier was also.
Like data is crap or we run out of data, right?
So we need data contributors across the globe.
And that's where Zorro comes into play.
So it complements a lot of projects here and people who are building very nicely. I think
that's what I was excited about part of this group is a lot of things. Content creation is great.
Ethos is actually bringing the validation, trust, and credibility for content creation.
the validation, trust, and credibility for content creation.
And I think Cookie 3 is also sort of combining them all together
in a nice format to people to look at.
So I see this as a valuable discussion
in addition to what everybody is building,
collaborating with them is really, really helpful, right?
So what you're building, sometimes somebody mentioned
that projects are built in its own echo chamber,
doesn't get actually replicated sometimes
because everybody building is in some sense,
but all of them should come together.
And that's where Web3 plays a key role for me.
Being in Web3 in the last four years,
before that I was in big tech,
frustrated with the centralized system as everybody is speaking and with the data validation and biases that built into these systems.
For example, Gemini got into a problem with journalists who actually sourced the original post and Gemini posted it as though they did the resurgence.
As though they did the resurgence, they posted the outcome as part of their inference in Gemini, which was the biggest problem that I saw coming, AI being mainstream in the last several years, especially given to the consumers, right?
So AI was there. Data science was there. It's nothing new. It's not happened in the last four years. It was always there.
four years, it was always there. But I think in the last four years, it's at the hands of consumers,
right? Consumers can actually use the models, do things for themselves, versus before it was run
behind the scenes algorithms for the companies and the products that they were building. So hence,
like what we are building right now is so critical, time critical, especially going in the right
direction. Hence, yeah yeah I love the conversation
and that's my two cents
so one thing that I
that's awesome like I do think we have
it's this we're coming up to this very
interesting intersection of like
technology web 3.0 AI and it's all kind of getting
like i would say it's in my head seeing beyond it it's going to be absolutely like groundbreaking
and add so much value to society and humanity like i almost see it as inevitable 10 years from
now 15 years from now and it's going to be really really painful and confusing um and like they're going to be a i mean serpent you said
it like you learn along the way because you think you build something and then like people figure
out how to break it and then you have to redefine the system but um one of the i would say double-edged swords that i see with info fi
in general um am i maybe there's a little bit of reputation that goes in here um but like just
rewarding creators uh and this explosion is it i think a lot of people came into crypto and web 3 for this um egalitarian concept
like you can build things you can earn like everyone's equal and then we want to get away
from like this massive pareto distribution problem that we see in traditional finance where you just
get the rich getting richer and then you had kaido is the first
one to reward creators and everyone's like oh look at this democracy you get paid for the content you
create and then we had wallchain and cookie and like all of these other platforms that come out
and then not only that but on kaido you have like different creators getting paid in different
projects that like get paid to a general
economy and then like are we going to hit a point where like we just hit a different a different type
of Pareto distribution where creators are almost getting overly compensated for their work so like
how do we i would say yes of course you're the Pareto distribution is basically a natural law, and we know that's going to happen.
And the top people will always earn disproportionately more.
But when that becomes too heavily weighted on one side, that's when you get instability and the system breaks.
So what are some things that we can do to make sure that doesn't happen?
Or am I totally off base?
And do you just think I'm an idiot?
And if so, call me that.
And I'm very open to engaging with the bait.
But R2D2, I'll let you go ahead and talk.
Yeah, look, I guess this is a very, very good question.
And I'm just going to give my example, right?
I've been in the industry, as I said, for a number of years now,
but I've never had a voice in CT.
And now all of a sudden I have got tools to actually climb the ladder quite fast
because I do have some knowledge.
I do know some people.
I've tested thousands of dApps.
You know, I'm a DeFi user and so on and so forth.
And, you know, I get to use now Ethos, you know, I'm a DeFi user, and so on and so forth. And, you know, I get to use
now ethos, for example, just to, you know, make sure that the right people around me
are not dodgy or not doing anything shady and so on. Then I used to I go to Kaito and
actually look at different projects. And I understand, and I did love a lot Kaito Connect
in the past that I was allowed to just search on and do some due diligence
on projects they're coming with some new ways now but i'm just giving this as an example so
from a user perspective i've got to to you know a number of different tools now which i didn't
have back in 2022 and i know a lot of my friends that came into crypto at that time and they were
like just i don't know where to start I don't know what to do here.
It's so much, it's overwhelming.
I'm sorry, but I want to make some money.
I want to know some new things, but this is not for me.
I don't have 10 hours a day just to stay on Crypto Twitter
and find out things.
So now I believe that we're heading towards somewhere
where some new primitives are forming.
I do believe that we're going to see, I don't know,
two, three, four months away, some credentials
that are not just going to be siloed, probably aggregated,
whatever that's going to look like, I don't know yet.
I know, for example, that Yapper's credentials are coming up.
This is in work with Humanity Protocol,
which is a digital identity protocol.
You know, we have Ethos, we have Cookie, we have Wallchain.
And I do believe we're heading towards somewhere where the users actually are going to benefit a lot of this.
And not just the top dogs.
I'm a small fish right here.
My account four months ago was 300 followers.
four months ago was 300 followers so to me this is a huge opportunity and and i'm speaking you
So to me, this is a huge opportunity.
know for thousands of people here because i i i speak with so many different small accounts every
day i call them small accounts no one is a small account everyone is to me you know as equal but
just as a metric perspective so i think we're heading towards the end of this year where
you know crypto is finally gonna um one have
the right tools to onboard new people and keep them uh for the right reasons not just casinos
and whatever other reasons and at the same time from a creative perspective people are going to
have a lot of new opportunities that in the past didn't exist and also businesses or projects um
i do believe they're going to have also different metrics actually to look how a community is formed, what different channels to use, what's the top funnel, how do I actually build on retention, what are my KPIs.
So there's so many different things happening at the moment that we cannot really comprehend how this space is going to, in my opinion, look into the next 6 to 12 months.
comprehend how this space is going to, in my opinion, look into the next 6 to 12 months.
Steve, you want to, or Stan, you want to chime in?
Stan, can you hear us?
Yeah, yeah.
Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now, guys? Yep, we you hear us? Yeah, yeah. Can you hear me now?
Guys?
Yep, we can hear you.
Oh, finally.
Sorry, I was out for some reason.
I don't know why.
So many was said about the content,
about it's good, how to filter it,
how to work with that.
So yeah, like the only criteria
about the content is whether our community like it or not.
Does this content bring us more people to raise our community or not?
And no matter what kind of content it is.
So all the projects, all the products, they produce the content for their followers for
their communities and the most of the purpose is to engage to increase the community or to
monetize it and we know that we use different channels like Instagram YouTube TikTok Twitter Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, whatever else. And everything is working differently.
And what we have, we have like these products,
especially talking about Twitter space.
We have Kaito Ethos and other stuff that can,
that help us to analyze our content that we publish.
So it gives us metrics.
It helps us to understand what's working, what's
not, and these are great stuff. Though, what is really important is the, what is our content about,
and what value does it have for our followers. And is it really interesting? Is it engaging for the people? Like many projects, they focus on the things around themselves, right? But people that follow them, they also have other interests. actually engage your audience with side topics, with the relative content as well, not only
about your product or project.
And so not as we all use these tools that help us to measure the content, to analyze
the content. We also need some tools how to make content more engaging
and how to make content more monetizing.
The content that can give the opportunity
to our followers to make money
in exchange for the time that they spend
on your social media accounts or in your app.
And so it can be a great collaboration by the way between like ethos and
dual doc, for example, that's how using dual doc, small or big account profiles
they can use to engage and then to check the activity
and credibility of the audience,
they can use ethos, for example.
So everything works better in the combination
with something else.
And that's how we can really give the answer
is the content that we publish is good or not,
effective or not.
Thank you. Monika, I was not. Thank you.
Monica, I was going to let you go ahead.
I saw your hand up.
Yes, thank you.
And I love that you brought a small account on here.
You talked about, I had,
I think I had about 5,000 followers
when I started with Gaido.
I have almost 8,000 now.
Just my metrics are off the charts
peak when I started with Gaido.
I also think we tend to forget it so early, right, with Kaido.
And I do want to talk about Kaido's multiplier effect.
I actually wrote about this earlier because it's actually creating new opportunities, right?
You have job.market, you have now other projects launching.
But I'm going to give our example.
So again, my content is primarily in Spanish.
I think about 40% of my followers on Twitter follow me because of my Spanish content.
I have followers from Mexico, Spain, Argentina, Colombia.
So I have to really balance it well.
But one thing we did is we, before Kaito made it visible for you to see in one place your leaderboards,
we did that on our page, which is in Spanish.
And so we have about, we're a small website, so we have about 200
visitors per day. So you can do the math. Because of what we did with the Kaito leaderboards,
we had 35,000 follower people visit our website this month. So just the amount of impact Kaito
can have on other, right? That multiplier effect, I think it's something we also need to look at.
We're actually thinking about what do we build next now that Gaeto added the leaderboards.
But it gave us so much visibility.
And it gave me personally a lot of visibility because people saw that I built something
that I needed but made it available to everybody for free.
I love that.
I mean, and I know, like we said earlier,
making things available for free,
it really is like a race to zero
on how you can capture that before.
One thing that we were talking,
I just thought, and it's funny,
when you said no one's a small account,
I was laughing literally last night. I had this thought where like, I graduated high school in a
class of 86 and like going like, I have 4,500 plus followers. Like what? Like, it's so weird
that you have that many people. I have more people like tweets than I went to school with. And like, it's this weird feeling of like how social media can really distort numbers and people. And I think it's actually really hard to literally, there's a, the human brain was not evolved or has not evolved to fully understand and grasp it, which I think is fascinating.
But on a completely different topic, one thing that I was thinking too, so like,
Cookie just came out.
I'm sure if there's anything that, the thing I hate most about ethos, if I'm going to be
very critical, is the invite.
And I get like, there's probably technical reasons why, like, especially when you're
talking about reputation, you just don't want to open the doors for everyone.
And you want to start with, like, a start small and build it out.
But I do get the feeling that, like, as a lot of these platforms come out, they are invite only.
And they, we've run into a problem.
So like one of the areas that was one thing that InfoFi fixes is this inner circle of KOLs all getting the same deals.
And like other people don't see it.
And you have like behind closed doors, people don't know who's getting paid.
And InfoFi opened it up and like now it's very public but when these platforms are just starting you still run into
the problem where like they're going to go to the same kols in the space to just get their names off
the ground anyways right so like you start and like it's it's not necessarily a criticism for
the projects that do it because that's what you do if you want to actually get Mindshare.
I know that like, hey, you're starting a platform.
I know that there's a list of probably 20 people that I'm going to go to and say like you get a special invite access code here.
You're privileged. Here's the benefit because you ultimately have to do that.
But are we just recreating that with InfoFi with like this?
It feels very much
like a gated community to start um but will it always be like that long term like serpent actually
if you could walk through kind of your your logic of those invites i would love to hear it because
i'm not necessarily critical it's just like a uh like I wish I could have everyone on it.
And especially for the smaller account, it's tougher to find reviews.
Even like R2D2 might be a great example where it's like, okay, he's a small account that grew really fast.
But like if people weren't reviewing him when it just started, it's tough to build your reputation when you're kind of starting from zero even if you are
like up and coming yeah i mean two things i guess the first thing the the invite system was very intentional and uh honestly the the biggest thing it helps us prevent or defend
against is civil attacks um the second you can you open the door to Sybil attacks and someone can invite
themselves 10,000 times, you are diluting the value of the score itself. The more people spoof
the score, the less value the score has. And so our intent from day one was to keep it really
small. And like even on the first day, we only invited a hundred people.
And like, man, the rage of all the people that weren't on the platform that were not a part of the first 100.
And, you know, we gave them one invite each and they slowly started breaking out.
And to be honest, what was it?
Two weeks ago from today, I gave 2 gave 2000 invites out to people, and I regret
it. Like, it was a mistake. There are no implications that we had it slowed down. But we had a lot of
people that were just absolutely slamming reviews, adding zero value, They were using a tool to read about people and create AI generated
reviews that were not authentic. And it was helping them spoof the score. It helped them
actually, you know, like there are people that joined within 14 days, they had written and
received 300 reviews each. And you're like, no, no, you couldn't sit at your computer all day and
do that in 14 days. I mean, you could, but you know what i mean and and so like obviously this is web3 this
is crypto everyone thinks there's incentive behind everything and so they immediately go to like
spend as little money as possible to potentially get an outsized return by doing things like
writing reviews and trying to get their score up. It makes sense. Why wouldn't they do that?
But doing it with 2,000 people, it has a cost.
Like, well, one, we just get slammed with people.
Like, one of the hardest things to do is scale technology when you're least expected.
Yeah, it just happens sometimes.
You're like, okay, spend a week, like, cleaning stuff up
to make sure you can handle all the new requests.
But two, you know, we felt like we diluted the platform overall. And you go look
at the platform and you're like, wait a second, all these reviews are fake. These aren't helpful.
These aren't valuable reviews. And I was talking earlier about content creation and you're creating
content for other people. And that content is meant to be valuable that other people can
understand who's trustworthy and who isn't.
Well, if you're getting spoofed 80% of the time, it's bad, right? You have bad content. And again,
the score gets diluted. So our focus has always been on slow growth. Enable people to,
actually, let me take a step back. Slow growth, but when we're ready to slam the growth,
we can take a step back and observe how people are adapting to it.
Are people abusing it?
Are people finding value in it?
Are people inviting thousands of fake accounts and selling reviews on Exiverse for $20 apiece?
That's what happened.
We have to go take a step back and adapt.
If we opened up the floodgates tomorrow
and anyone could sign up, there was no invitation system.
Ethos would be dead in a week or three weeks or a couple of months.
Like it wouldn't stand a chance because it would just be completely
overflowed with like just like fake content.
And there will be a day, one day, it might not be very soon,
where we can say we are confident now the score can separate real signal from
Sybil and farm signal but until then it's going to be really difficult and and
to be honest I think one of the biggest weaknesses of web3 overall is just the
fact that anyone can spin up a thousand accounts at any point in time and spoof activity.
Like you see this, I have friends on base,
very good farmers who they have created 10,000 wallets and they send, you know,
they interact with the protocol every day.
They send one cent to each other every day.
They use these massive botnets of people to basically spoof
and Sybil attack things because they think they're going to get a base token airdrop one day, which I really doubt they are.
But why wouldn't you do it if you write a little bit of code and all the code handles it for you?
Of course, you can fake yourself and you can make it look like you're 10,000 people.
So that is what we're up against.
I think we've learned enough from the people that have taken steps before us in terms of how to fight Sybils.
And, like, even if you look back at Frontech, it was a little bit crazy then.
There, you know, there was an entire Sybil farm that, like, came out afterwards and, like, was flexing on the fact that they made so much money by just, like, buying Twitter accounts and buying each other's keys and farming it.
Again, that's good for no one.
And so that defeats the purpose of the score.
And that's why we've had to be intentional
and potentially unfair a little bit
about how invites go out and are distributed.
No, that's interesting.
It's kind of one thing I was thinking too,
and I've thought about like, how do you prevent civil attacks? And one way, too, and, like, web, it's also easier, in my mind, on web, too, because there's actually no cost. being on base and like being an l2 like the gas fees are really low and what happens if like
if you're on ethereum mainnet and people have to pay 50 cents to transact like yeah maybe you can
spoof up like five or ten but like it all of a sudden becomes very cost prohibitive to like
spoof all of these transactions over and over and it actually has a large cost to it um which is one thing that i kind of think if there's an argument to be like on a main net and four high gas fees i think that
would be it um like you just introduce a a cost to everything but then it there's a obviously a
trade-off there but i'll uh r2d2 your hand was up i'll let you go yeah i just want to quickly add
something here and i just want to say and serpent actually was very kind enough to invite me when i
was like a a micro account i would say not even a small account so so thank you for that but i just
want to go back to your initial question and and a couple things here. Within for five, what we're currently
witnessing, and I'm just going to give the most recent example, right? Look at loud.
They have 1000 people fighting, well, sorry, a lot of people fighting for 1000 places, right?
And to me, the way that they put out the criteria, and probably Wolf can talk more about this in a minute, is that they set up, you have to have 10 smart followers.
You have to do this, this, this, this, and that.
So I guess with these new tools coming out and being available to anyone, actually not necessarily being a top KO, not necessarily being a big influencer or whatnot, it opens up opportunities.
And I'm saying this because I've looked at that leaderboard today
and I saw micro accounts, small accounts, you know, 100, sorry,
500 to 1,000 followers, even 2,000 followers.
So people actually have a chance now to get into something
that two, three years ago was unachievable.
So I guess this gives me hope that in the next, as I said earlier, six to 12 months, this industry is going to change a lot from a user perspective, but also from a business project perspective.
How can you distribute something to people. And one last thing to mention here. We have two example,
two InfoFire platforms recently that had two different distribution channels
or the ways that they did it.
One started, and I'm not going to name them
because I don't want to name and shame anyone here.
One started very small
and started building up and reaching out
and forming a small community initially.
And I guess just from that,
it started to grow more and more and recently just
opened up the gates to a lot more users. The other one just came in and overnight sent thousands of
invitations to quite large groups of chaos. My DMs person in the morning that I woke up when this
platform was launched, I had like 60 different people DMing me, do you want an invite here?
And I was like, what's going on? So again, it's how do we want to place things? How do we want to use things? I do believe that going forward, creators, whatever micro accounts, small accounts, bigger accounts, we all have chances and opportunities. And I do believe things are changing quite rapidly going forward for us.
Go ahead, Monica.
Yes, I was going to agree.
I also think, you know, one of the things that I'm looking forward to,
and I know that a lot of the platforms are looking at Chinese language,
but adding Spanish and other languages,
you know, I'm trying to grow the Spanish language community.
I think there's great content creators.
I think we can onboard so many people in LATAM, right?
And then you look at other languages, right?
You go to other parts of the world and there's great opportunity.
So I would just also say that because many non-English speakers recognize that the English
content will position them later, are using AI to translate
their content. So this is not part of your question. So I just wanted to say that before I
forgot. So just give us a little bit of grace. Sometimes I use AI to check my content just to
be sure that it's right. And then I clean it up. But I know a lot of people are just translating
and posting because it's not their language. But they know that it's the only way that they're going to
be able to be positioned on leader leaderboards. At least that's a perception, right? I think
Kytos has changed in the last few weeks, we're seeing a lot more Spanish speakers earn the apps,
which they hadn't been. So I'm hoping that we continue to see the growth. So so that's that.
Look, I am going to name
a platform. I think Cookie, I actually think Cookie did a great job in making people have
FOMO, but at the same time, really give invitations to everybody by the way they handled it. And I
think it grew their platform. I'm excited to see. I actually liked Cookie before they did this. I've
used their analytics for AI agents
for a while because I do an AI agent report in Spanish. And I think it's a great platform. So
I'm looking forward to see what's next for them. Obviously, I'm big on Kaito. I'm a Kaito maxi,
but I do, I am looking to see what other platforms do. And I love what, how Fantasy
Top gives you your review. I laugh every time it does a summary of my Twitter content because it's hilarious.
But I think you have to have fun and engage and explore all the platforms.
But I do think Cookie did a great job of onboarding people where it was free, it was accessible, but it still made it, gave you FOMO, right?
Because you had to have an invitation.
So I think they did it in a good way.
Yeah, I was
actually thinking about this earlier too. I mean,
I'm sure there's going to be, we've seen a lot
of more like mind,
I'll call it mind share, like
earning to tweet
platforms come out. And I'm sure we'll see
a lot more reputation platforms come out
too, just because it's such an interesting field. But but like I wonder at what point we're going to get aggregators and
like projects that literally just like imagine if you could look at and go like hey here's for
each Twitter account like here's their score on Kaito and Wallchain and Cookie and here's their reputation on
Ethos and here's their reputation on
Ethos competitor number one
or Ethos derivative number two,
all of those things. And I think it would be really
interesting to see
how, because everyone
tries to optimize for something
different. We've seen
projects look at
loyalty. I know it's a a big conversation
like um in other spaces when they come up like what what is actually valuable what do brands want
what do users want and then like how do you retain that mind sharing retention right because
like it's really easy if you just say like oh, we are going to give, I don't know, pick an outrageous number.
We're going to give $5 million to the top 1,000 people that talk about us.
And then we're going to pay it out on this date.
And then after that, we're done.
You're going to have people that it's basically like you're giving people contracts.
And then when their contract's done, they have no interest in the company anymore. Um,
so it's really interesting,
but I think like these aggregation tools will come in and like actually
showcase like who, who's very valuable. Um,
but yeah, I, that was just an aside. I don't really have anything to add. Um,
Stan, you have your hand up.
Yeah, that's actually the problem of many, many, many profiles.
Those who create content, they just want their people to watch it.
Now interaction is actually...
How to say, so there is no interaction actually, right?
And just give your followers the opportunity to engage with your content and you will see how active they are.
Ask them the questions, ask them to do some actions and so on.
But together with that, give them some value or interest.
Create a movie and make your content constant and serial.
Because giving the money just for some tasks, that's like short story.
And what makes them interested in your product is the money that you offer.
So these incentivization methods, they are very temporary. But if you really want to make your followers
deeply engaged with what you offer,
with what you post,
about what you are talking,
give them something more than money.
Give them emotion,
give them the story,
and make them the part of what you are doing.
So with Duel Duck, it's easy because we offer them the predictions
so we engage them we like drag them into we pull them into our content we make them part of it and
also we give them the opportunity to make money from that so from our side it's like easy because
this is our main mechanic how we engage with the people and also with the projects.
But yeah, but this is a new idea.
It's actually how all the content makers should act
because they need to set the friendship with their community,
not just, you know, I post, you watch, like, or comment.
That's like all days.
Now competition around the content is so big
that you have to give more, something more
than just the content.
So this is my idea.
Now that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
If you want to go, Che, I saw your hand up.
Yeah, I think just to chime in here,
I think I love how you brought in the aggregator, right?
So a lot of content creators, let's say,
they have preferences for one platform versus the other.
When you don't bring them all together,
they don't get the same score or the optics, right, in the market.
I feel like that's unfair for a lot of content creators.
And I myself is not a content creator,
but I do share my thoughts on different platform
and sort of separate aspect.
So I think there is a need.
And I remember there was a project called YAP, I guess, Y-U-P, which is now acquired
by Third Web, actually did that.
So they scored across Twitter for Caster Lens and Blue Sky because there is preferences
for different content creators, right, based on what their background, culture, gender, you name it, that drives them to go from one platform to another, right?
So a lot of Twitter users move to Blue Sky for whatever reason. this unfair disproportionality that comes into play because you see these creators
who have valuable insight to share
with a lot of consumers,
but they don't get exposed to
because of this whole disparity
that we see within the platform.
But having an aggregator
would really bring them all together, right?
Then there's no sort of aspect of like 1%.
It's like I was reading somewhere, 1% of the creators gets 99% of the eyeball of their
attention, which is really, which also talks towards the exclusivity, right?
So I know what Serpin mentioned is like, hey, I'm safeguarding the platform,
bringing credibility and trustworthy from all these bots and civil attacks and such. But on
the contrary, it's like there's only 1% who gets pulled into through exclusivity to all of these
new upcoming platforms. I think there should be somewhere people have to draw the lines in terms of ethos in general sense um to to have
like that one percent should go and bring credible um thought leaders onto the platform right like
uh not someone like one person doing versus one percent doing that's a difference so that's my
thoughts there um would love to hear what actual platform builders for creators have there as part of their roadmap, like solving this problem.
What you were saying too, just thinking about what Monica was saying earlier with the Spanish speaking.
It is interesting because it's one area where I hadn't actually thought of where obviously we saw what was, I'll say, affectionately termed AI slop all over the timeline over and over and over again.
affectionately termed AI slop all over the timeline over and over and over again.
But like, it's funny because I'm like, oh yeah, like it literally could have been people
who weren't native English speakers trying to translate their posts into AI. Like I remember
just if I was trying to call it BS my way through my Spanish homework in high school,
I would just like write in English
and then put it into Google translate and paste that. Um, and it was very funny when you go like
translate it in from English to Spanish and then back Spanish to English. And you're like,
Oh my God, this is awful. This does not look like a real human wrote this. Um, and that really could
be what we ran into with AI. So I think it's fascinating.
But I think to answer, I mean, I'm not a builder.
I know I'm a creator, Che.
So like, I wouldn't even say I'm a creator.
I'm just like, I'm a shit poster, realistically.
But it's one of those like, you just, I think part of the info five that you see is people actually just engaging with more
content especially when they're small um which of like this weird growth hack that you have to grow
your account but in the interim when like the people who are already big like i know that i
respond to certain people i responded to walls to get yaps like that's
that's how you do it or like you go after these top accounts for people to see you so i think it's
um like that's the only way they go about it and like i really don't know how uh platforms are
building out but if anyone has any ideas i'd love love to hear. Maybe somebody on the Polygon team,
a Polygon platform can be born.
Hey, we are always open for builders.
We would love to see it.
It would be, I mean, there is,
there are some things I know that are being built.
I just don't know.
Like, I do think that's one thing in general,
especially, and maybe we can talk about like
why InfoFi just exploded, but when something is new, you're going to have a lot of, I'll call it semi-functional pieces, but you can't have something semi-functional and then publicly launch it because it'll break and then you ruin your trust long term forever and i think that's a problem that
a lot of projects are running into like okay this is the it's almost like you have this massive
explosion when a few projects hit the nail on the head and work and then you're going to have like
i do think there's kind of going to be like in the they are going to be the leaders for the next
12 months to two years because
you're going to,
and we see it with every single industry of like,
okay,
people realize that that's something.
And then it takes time to start building and you have to learn them.
Like if someone was building Kaido for years and years and years and years,
like they learned a lot of mistakes,
but they're not going to tell you all the mistakes they made along the way. So new builders
basically have to learn the mistakes
themselves, and I think that's where you
run into the
you are the leader for a certain amount
of time until everyone else is able to
catch up, and then I think the competition gets
really, really fun.
But I also think general
users win in that situation i didn't want to introduce stewart um i just saw you come on the
stage so if you want to introduce yourself and say hello and tell us a little bit about what you're
about hey what's going on appreciate the stage and yeah, I'm Stu and just the content creator,
Web3 enthusiast involved in like some startups, just process and building them out. But yeah,
I wanted to, what had brought me up was I heard somebody speak on the content creation piece and
I'm just speaking from that perspective myself. I think Web3 is like the only place,
well, it's like one of the few industries where
it's just, it's like an echo chamber. And like, I think for me with InfoFi, it's like you have to
find a way to have these large language models be able to detect cross platform and be able to see,
okay, this user made content on this platform outside of crypto Twitter and this eco chamber.
They brought over a new person over to the platform or exposure to your product.
To me, in my opinion, the large language model should be able to detect that and then reward.
over to exposure to another platform because that's what grows the spider web is like that's
That should be the highest reward for a user to get is bringing somebody from a platform over to exposure to another platform because that's what grows the spider web.
and i think that is to me like no matter if you have wall chain or info file just whatever platform
kato cookie all of them you can come out with 12 more but if you only exist within two platforms
discord and twitter is just you know how do you expect to like grow as far as expand that outside? All you're going to do is just have just a spiral loop effect where everybody
just promoting like within, it's not actually real marketing.
And then when the retail actually hangs out,
where the TikToks and the YouTubes is like,
those are the markets that you're trying to attract.
But then it's like you're rewarding that same spiral loop.
And then, you know, know web3 be so confused
to be like i wonder why new people are not coming in and it's like you know that's why that's why
like for me i kind of you know troll these agencies or web3 agencies because like how you
call yourself an agency you only exist on two platforms but like web3 just is so dumbfounded
by like why like new liquidity and new money is not coming in. So my whole point is, is like info file has to exist beyond these social medias.
And if they find a way to like reward users in TikTok or making videos, you have to find a way to incentivize that behavior.
And then once you see somebody get rewarded, that's going to encourage others.
And that's what's going to create a natural spiral effect.
And that spider web growing
to those different platforms naturally if you approach it like that i feel like the ecosystem
will just evolve over time because you're just seeing the same copy and paste like different
models purely just for farming just getting engagement which i get i understand it's the
game you have a following but if you really want to create an actual last ecosystem it has to
expand like web 3 is like the only place that has the innovation and the insight,
but then doesn't look to expansion to finish the completion.
It's like, it doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, no, that's, that's a great point.
We were talking earlier, I think you,
before you got here about like how there's a huge need and like i really see info 5 going to these
other platforms um that just go like okay yeah it's it's beyond just crypto twitter you can have
you can monetize content on um tiktok i know there's like i'm working on a project that
monetizes content on reddit and creates community points and things like that.
So you can have all of these different social channels and then people can have their influence in niche different ways.
And I think in general projects like, yeah, it's great to crypto Twitter's interesting.
And like speaking from Polygon perspective um as part of their
marketing team like yeah it's really cool if crypto twitter is um super bullish on polygon
and like loves what we're doing and i'm sure quick swap would be the same way but like
at the same time i don't think there's anyone on crypto twitter that hasn't heard of polygon right like everyone knows what that is
so like we aren't getting new users it's like either people are on polygon and love using it
or they tried it and they were ambivalent and have another project that they like and that's
fine too people can do whatever they want but like those aren't new users. And, like, really, I think for Web3 to grow in general, we need new users.
We can't just have someone going like, ooh, I like Polygon.
Ooh, I like Base.
Ooh, I like Solana.
And I'm like, the same user is just jumping chains, but there's no actual growth there.
And I think InfoFi can really help expand platforms and get people to go like hey you know what
maybe we would be willing at polygon to incentivize creators on tiktok or youtube if that were an
avenue where we could go um instead of just having a kind of leaderboard and like i'm not saying
that's going to happen but that would just be an example of like you know what instead of putting
all of our marketing budget on Twitter,
we're going to put it on different accounts.
And I think that's actually something really important
that is projects aren't really doing in a great way.
Monica?
I actually have a question for you.
Do you see the whole InfoFi movement also change the grant model, not for builders,
but I know a couple of projects or protocols have grants for educational content and for content creators.
Do you see that changing? Do you see that merging?
We have seen, I will be completely transparent in LATAM, a lot of people who did grant farming, right?
And not only LATAM, around the world.
Where you do grant farming, you go after a project,
you create some content.
It doesn't really get engagement.
You go to the next one, you create content, right?
You apply, et cetera.
So do you think this helps improve this system as well?
I need to think.
I think it probably does.
So it's interesting. Polygon, we, it's just about
a year old, but like we announced a community grants program. And one thing that we had our
first season where basically we've committed to giving out a hundred million poll each year um in terms of community
grants and after season one a lot of that was like we gave out a lot of money to projects
um and i think it's a problem in general like it's not just polygon you see it at basically every
single protocol where they have a grants program is people were grant farming and then moving from one to the next.
And for season two, Polygon got a lot more focus and really regimented about the milestone based grant, which you can still grant farm.
But it becomes harder when it's like, I will do this and then I will unlock this amount of grant and then I'll do
this next thing. So like you keep people there for longer.
But I also think InfoFi could help out in certain ways where like there,
there could be creator budgets that projects have that they know that they're
going to spend. So let's say they know that they're going to spend so let's say they know
that they have i'll make the math easy and say 1.2 million dollars a year going to creators that's
a hundred thousand dollars a month like and that could be their grant budget that they have each
month to give to people and then they just one it at least helps them they don't have to have an
employee anymore managing that they can just throw it up on a leaderboard and just pay out that way so like maybe you even double your grants
program because the person who was running it was making a hundred thousand dollars a year so
like you get um you push it that way but i do think there are a lot of games. We've talked a lot. I know Smokey, who runs a space on Kaido Weekly, talks about it fixes the problem of projects having to find creators.
Because Kaido and other InfoFi platforms.
Basically, it's funny, crypto typically cuts out the middleman.
But actually, in this situation, we needed a middleman to make things a lot easier.
That wasn't extracting value, which of what middlemen do.
But it's like, hey, here are the people that can create.
We have this platform.
And it ends up being a win-win, um, both for the creators
and the projects, because it takes significantly less work. I mean, if you think about all the
research that goes into KOLs having these like weird, like, I don't know if we're actually going
to get a return. Um, I do see info five as what I would call micro milestone based grants based on performance.
So it's a, that's how I would think about it in my mind.
Yeah. Okay. I hope I answered your question. i didn't know if anyone had anything uh
to add no you did you did and it's super helpful i do think it changes the model i hope improves
quality of content but also i think like i said at the beginning i don't know if you guys heard me
but it really changed my approach to get more engagement which i think somebody else mentioned
about the importance of really engaging the community and not just pushing our content. And so I'm hoping that we can bring that to LATEM as well.
Awesome. Yeah, I do think we're running to the end of the space. This was a lot of fun. I will
open the floor if anyone has anything they want to add.
Timmy, I want to jump. I haven't said anything this whole space because
you've just been like rocking it so much. And I really didn't know very much about InfoFi at all.
So I've just been like taking in the information from all of the amazing guests that you've like
brought in. But this really like made me want to learn more about InfoFi and like get involved more myself.
You know, like I, as a marketer, have like used Cookie 3's product a little bit with our clients.
But I haven't actually, you know, used like actually gotten into using InfoFi myself as a creator.
I think that's probably my next step.
So thank you all so much for being here. And thank you so much for organizing this. You just did such an amazing job. And you guys are all like just so impressive. I'm so glad that this exists
and that small creators have, or, you know, like up and coming creators, sorry, not to use the
pejorative small, but like up and coming creators have this avenue to like springboard themselves.
Because I've been saying for years that like these large KOLs, these KOLs with these huge
followings don't, aren't really as valuable as they've been
charging clients.
So I'm just so glad to see this happening.
I think to add to that point too, one thing, and we didn't even touch on this, but I do
think it's really cool that I think about all of these info five platforms,
they have a follower count,
but then they like discredit a large portion of your followers and they have
different thresholds for,
I mean,
Kylo called it smart followers or like smart engagement and things like that.
And my favorite thing to do,
and like,
maybe it's because I'm a little bit of an asshole,
was to look at like people who said they were KOLs and then you look at their account and you're like,
so you're telling me you have 120,000 followers
and 50 smart followers
when I have 4,500 and 300 smart followers?
Like I know that you're gaming the system,
but like you basically spent a couple bucks and 300 smart followers. I know that you're gaming the system,
but you basically spent a couple bucks to get more followers
so you could look like you were more important
than you actually were.
And I think it's actually hysterical
because it's like,
oh, InfoFi just exposed you as a grifter instantly,
which is, I don't know.
It's fun to see people exposed who don't deserve the credit
that they have. No, I love this. I'm so glad that this has happened. And I'm looking forward to
sort of diving into using it myself so that I can understand more about how our clients can
better use it themselves.
So thank you all so much for being here and for explaining this.
And this has been just a great space.
Awesome.
Yeah, well, we'll see you all.
And then I'll just plug QuickSwap this.
They have different spaces.
So this is my first time co-hosting.
I know Polygon acts as a co-host, but there's different topics every Friday.
So definitely if you guys follow QuickSwap, everyone should follow all the speakers on stage.
Once we leave the space, click on it, see who spoke.
Because there's so many.
I have become smarter hearing from everyone that was on the space.
Both this last two plus hours and then just reading their content in
general.
But yeah,
tune in every week and we will definitely do an InfoPy space again,
hopefully at some point,
because I do think it's interesting and it's just going to explode.
Thank you so much for the invitation for all us smaller or what is it growing accounts
yeah emerging emerging accounts i like
yes you all are great beautiful space thank you very much tons of alpha and great topics
were covered great guests and speakers as well.
I appreciate the space.
These are all the speakers, everybody that came up to speak.
I got a lot of value and I hope I share some value as well.
Let's keep growing our accounts.
Okay, bye bye.
