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Is MSTR doomed? #Litecoin #Bitcoin
Recorded: Dec. 4, 2025 Duration: 2:03:01Space Recording
Full Transcription
Oh The new guy, he's a style who I sympathize. So long as other therapists strike a fear in local hearts.
Take it to the sky with lazing glass, the table full in crazy pots.
My eyes start to spin, princesses fell by thee, original sin.
Newfound gasoline, sing and dance with thee, my new family.
The folly in men, shard in the end.
The boss of nature, the boss of mine, fire on the land, and wind in flight.
So just stand before, take our word right, don't fear someone's out, I'll fear a little sight. I better run this night!
Play!
Show us!
Play!
Show us!
Play!
Show us! Play!
Alright, I had to play a little bit of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, my new favorite rock band, who does a little bit of everything nowadays.
But hold on a second, I see some, I already got old Valenzuela in here.
My nose is running, dude. I just took my dog for a walk.
for a walk. Hang on a second. I got to get myself situated. So I didn't, uh, I took last week off
Hang on a second, I gotta get myself situated.
and you know, I, I feel like what's happened to my feed is I've, I'm engaging in other things
and I'm losing the crypto, uh, thread, you know, I'm not as, I'm not as engaged, but one of the
things I've noticed is, uh, this, I want to talk Sailor. And I know Joelle likes to talk about Sailor.
And I think this could get really, really ugly.
I don't know.
In a way, I'm kind of...
I'm feeling a little bit like...
I know it's bad for everybody.
It's bad for me personally, financially, but, uh, it,
it is nice to see this play out probably how it should play out. And that's,
you know, this is like a scam that has been being run out in the open.
I think that's my opinion. What do you think? Dash?
Welcome to the spaces. Are you missing the Mrs. dash are you mr dash listen there was a mrs dash at one point
she called herself it was a head of marketing who um got fired for absolutely sucking their job so
no i mean i think we talked about this last week the old uh spice mix, Mrs. Dash. Come on. Did you not grow up in the 80s?
Not from not much of the 80s.
Oh, okay.
Very little of the 80s, actually.
Well, if you never use Mrs. Dash, it's actually a great product.
Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about now.
But also, remember, I grew up on a farm in a different country.
Oh, yeah.
There's a little bit of that you know
well it's like all these salt-free spice blends it's pretty nice actually so anyway
so what do you think uh do you think that this is
gonna just slowly unravel because we're talking about MS, MicroStrategy, right? Because that's what
I titled the space.
I, for a long time, haven't been a fan of
Sailor. I think Animal
was on the space. We did a
video where we kind of
analyzed this guy's breakdown of the
what I'll call
pyramid scheme.
yeah, I mean, do you think this is going to unravel
in spectacular fashion or do you think he's got enough money to keep it afloat for quite some time
so and i have to say this is speaking for myself personally the reason i'm using the
dash account is to help blow up the space and give you a bunch of new i appreciate that listening and that's why i'm on both but so just personal opinion i don't if i were to guess this thing
does unravel i'm pretty sure it's got to unravel i just think it would probably be somewhere like late 2027 or so if that i would guess and um first of all uh sailor is
i think he's a sketchy mofo clearly i've been criticizing him since 2021 i think like you'd
look back on all my posts uh from not this account but you know obviously but um But I think that, first of all, he's been wrecked to hell and back again once and come back.
So he knows the game.
He knows the reckoning, so to speak.
And also, I think he's,
the fact that he got this USD reserve,
which is completely antithetical to the entire point
just completely antithetical to the entire point of what he's supposed to be doing.
of what he's supposed to be doing,
But it does buy him like a year, almost two years of rope, you know, where he can pay off
dividends and other things like that and not go bust to just try to like hang out.
And and then just the third general thing I would say is this is not scientific at all.
I just get the feeling that every single bear market has sort of come to an end with a capitulation like the FTX kind of thing.
And I kind of feel like the next bull market is going to start right after sailor gets wrecked or something else implodes
spectacularly. And then that's the bottom and then we're back up. That's just my feelings.
So do you think this, um, see, I kind of feel like the ETFs are eliminating the cycles.
It might have, it, it smelled a little bit like a bull bull market but it wasn't really that much of a
bull market you know um or maybe they're just getting smaller i mean i think if i went back
and talked and looked at what i would say about predictions about peaks i think i was in the 130
to 140 range big just based on they keep getting smaller and smaller, right? The multiples keep shrinking. And so it should be more steady. You have bigger institutions that are going to absorb the downturns.
ever in Bitcoin, right?
I mean, the one in October was
30-some percent in like hours.
Am I wrong?
Somebody correct me on that.
That's got to be the fastest collapse
we've seen in a long time.
It's got to be up there somewhere.
I don't know.
But yeah, pretty wild.
It's funny because I say this
as an optimist long term for the crypto space, but I just it just feels like all the elements of anytime you commit to saying I'm just a buyer, I'm never going to sell.
What you're doing is you're taking coins off the market and you lose all control of any sort of influence on the market as a whole, right?
That's kind of the thing.
I think he's put himself in a bad spot.
Scotty Darwin.
You're new.
You're named after a Darwin guy.
What's up, man?
You got something to chime in with or are you just getting up here to speak?
Did I interrupt?
The other guy was going pretty good.
I don't know.
It was probably me.
I was just ranting.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I like your voice, though.
Not like that, but you've got a good voice.
Yeah, wait until like 11 or midnight before you start talking.
No, no, I'm sorry.
Yeah, I was sorry. Um,
I was,
yeah,
I was actually listening to you and you,
I don't think you were finished before everything just kind of went off in my
head and the other guy started talking to me.
you're good.
So I,
you were talking about sailing.
Yeah.
Refresh me just a minute because I was,
yeah,
I was listening.
Well,
you know, he's runs them. I mean, what do you you know about him i don't want to give you the piece of fucking shit what is it to know about him
i read an article the other night that he's worth less than a bitcoin
where do you believe that this i i have a hard on Twitter, when they did the valuation and they did that shit to him,
that he actually comes out less than a Bitcoin.
But that's how I feel about him.
I've always felt that way about him.
I'm sure he's got some Bitcoin stash away.
Well, you would think so.
I mean, so I don't know how much I believe that he's worth less than a Bitcoin.
I mean, for me, Saylor, you just go back in the chart
and the pump before and the Fed's got him
and then his chart goes flat.
What the hell was he doing
calling Bitcoin a scam?
Who was he working for?
That is true.
That's history, right?
Yeah, so that's kind of my feeling
about the wholealer thing um
well more do you think i guess the question is this like because i i feel like with micro
strategy you know there's somebody on who i follow you guys might follow i want to say his
accounts like tmxc trades or something like that does that sound familiar or txmc or tx let me see if i can find
this but he talks about it a lot i think it's tmxc and um you know he was saying yeah txmc trades
he talks about bitcoin and sailor a lot and um you know he was like you know microstrategy can
go to zero and people are like you crazy he owns his bit like he's got a ton of Bitcoin.
Why would the company go down to zero?
And I kind of agree because I think that if I'm going to go to the store to buy anything,
why would I go somewhere that it's costing me more to get it?
Or it's costing me or there's some convoluted way that
I don't really even have access to the underlying asset. It gets to feel very confusing to me that
how do I end up with the Bitcoin? I don't, right? I just have a piece of paper that says it's
redeemable for shares in this company that owns Bitcoin, who's never going to sell the Bitcoin.
So I'm not even sure how that it's just some sort of weird paper proxy to Bitcoin, as opposed to why not?
Why wouldn't I just go buy an ETF? Or if I'm in that same marketplace, it's probably I mean, there might be slightly higher fees, but I have like a one to one representation of my money going into bitcoin again i'd say take it self-sovereign
but the point being there's no competitive advantage that microstrategy provides you
versus just i don't i don't think any of that matters really i think he's just a hype man
microstrategy was the first real vehicle that um public markets could use to expose themselves to
bitcoin before etfs they were the first bitcoin etf right so they've got that first mover advantage
michael saylor became a celebrity during the 2021 bull market um produced that nobody really
ever heard of him but now everybody knows he's a Bitcoin guy, right? And he's a Bitcoin bull.
I personally think that it's possible for MicroStrategy to go to zero,
but only because Bitcoin would go to zero.
I don't think there's anything...
I don't think a severe dip, like a 90% drawdown,
would cause MicroStrategy to go to zero i think it would just
you know sharks would come and eat the scraps right and um would pump the stock back up i think
they have enough runway on um you know the equity that borrowed, that they don't sweat the dumps.
You know, they've got like, you know, they've got this 10-year forecast, right?
Or this 10-year plan, at least, where they have to, how long do they have
until they have to start to pay back their loans?
It's like 10 years or something, right?
And the interest rate is like 5%.
There's five years and 5% interest or something like that.
I'm asking right now.
Different, they mature between 2027 and 2031.
Okay.
So in February of 27, so we're still off,
holders of a billion dollars of zero percent convertible senior notes have a put option to require microstrategy to repurchase their notes.
Or the company can redeem them for cash or stock.
So they got to have a billion dollars on hand next February.
And then in September, payment comes due on its first billion dollar convertible debt offering, depending on the share price.
Wait, say that again? What does that mean?
It's the Internet. Let me see. Dive deeper in AI mode. Let's see.
All right. Let me see if I can share this. It might be easier.
In September 27, a potential put option date for bondholders where MicroStrategy's may have to repay a billion dollars if the stock price is below a certain conversion price, allowing bondholders to demand their money back.
And then a year later, maturity date for a very low interest senior note issued last year.
And the date when bondholders can require MicroStrategy to repurchase their notes at par.
So they do need this cash in the coming years in order to pay back some debts.
So they're borrowing longer
term debt to
pay off shorter term debt.
Are they still getting it at
0%? Probably not.
How the fuck did they pull this off?
I don't even understand.
They got lucky, man. They got lucky or the guy
used his
business intelligence
algorithms to figure it out.
The Fed's.
Well, he also, yeah, the Fed's could be involved.
And he also bought enough really low that he had a lot of equity.
Like, you know, he ran up.
I mean, what did he, 5X his money pretty shortly, right?
Right in the beginning.
So he probably had a lot of positive equity
to borrow against. I just think, man, you start getting into borrowing and leveraging and he's
moving things around and it's like, you just, it just starts smelling like one of those house of
cards, right? And I've never even smelled a house of cards personally, but I can imagine.
You can imagine.
All right.
Well, I don't know.
Does anybody else want to come and talk about it?
I guess I've been a doubter.
I have a place in my heart that I don't like the guy because I felt like he's been pretty disingenuous from the beginning.
I still think the worst thing he did was in whatever, I think it was
like March of 21. He was telling everybody, you know, take all the money you can borrow and buy
Bitcoin. If you have a company, family business that you loved and it's been your family,
borrow everything you can against it and buy Bitcoin. And you're just like,
whatever, a month later, everything went down when,
was that the China collapse?
that was China Luna.
it was China mining 21.
Yeah.
Luna was like a couple of years later.
But yeah,
it went from like,
that was the first doge crash.
It was the SNL crash,
right?
After Elon went on SNL
and Bitcoin went from like 70 grand down to 30 maybe 27
something like that or no it went on 16 right yeah yeah i mean come on the guy tells you to
leverage everything and your it goes down 75%. Like, what a derp.
Why?
For what?
If you have so much faith in this product, if you're such a believer, just tell people to be responsible.
Like, you know, long-term vision here.
Act responsibly.
Totally.
Yeah.
It's something to So there's some interesting,
I don't know if math is the right term for this,
but there's an interesting equation to go through with like this whole thing.
First of all,
I made the joke the other day and I'm going to have to go pin it on the post
just because it's,
it's funny.
It's one of the best uses for chat GBT is to talk shit about sailor.
But it said that the digital asset
treasury companies are kind of like the spirit halloween of the crypto world where it's like
when a company goes bust or is about to go bust you just slap a dat label on it and yay new life
so the thing is the entire reason you would want to hold mstr i guess the entire the entire selling point is
to hold bitcoin is that they hold bitcoin you get a piece of that sort of kind of maybe actually not
but still and so you think about if you just buy bitcoin you have bitcoin so the only way you could
this would be valuable for i'm not talking about sailor's perspective i'm talking about the
investor's perspective the only way you would want to buy micro strategy is you just can't buy
bitcoin for whatever reason and you know there are etfs and other things like that so you should be able to or you think you can somehow buy more bitcoin than your money can actually take you to
so i could see some value too in the fact that it's not an in-kind product so that like
btc and whatever wrapped btc and btc etf probably are all considered the same asset
where microstrategy is not so you could maybe play some tax loss games with it
that'd be the only advantage i'd see yeah so it's kind of a little dicey. So from my perspective, the only reason I would ever invest,
if I wanted Bitcoin,
the only reason I would ever invest in something
that's not directly Bitcoin
is if somehow I got more Bitcoin out at the end of the day
than if I just bought it directly.
And the way that strategy makes sense is if this guy decided to buy low, sell high, and just keep doing that over a long period of time, and then increase the Bitcoin stack.
And it seems like Homeboy is doing anything but that.
It seems like the higher it goes, the more he buys.
It's like the higher it goes, the more he buys.
It's so like the average purchase price is something like 75,000 or a little bit above,
which is, you know, it's not bad, but it's definitely not good.
So you take that plus like the overhead of this giant company and the new private jet
he literally just put in to buy, by the way, you put, take all that and it just doesn't
You take all that and it just doesn't make financial sense.
make financial sense.
And it starts to become clear that he is trying to get money from people and he is trying to get Bitcoin for that.
But the people giving him the money are, is enough to pay dividends to people that he now has to pay because he keeps promising to him about like, oh, look at the yield and all this stuff, all the marketing, he literally cannot stop putting diagrams of pyramids into explaining this.
Sailor, stop doing pyramids.
It's not a good look, but he just can't help himself.
Go to $10 million by 2030.
I didn't know this, but MSCR is currently trading much closer to its nav, right?
It's no longer valued twice as much as Bitcoin.
It's closer to 1.1x.
Yeah, I think it actually dropped below for the first time, I think, recently.
Really?
Yeah, this month.
It got down to like 150 or something.
Yeah, like in the last few days, I think.
And it should be below.
It should be well below because you can't redeem your mstr for bitcoin you can't get it out it's it's not actual bitcoin
and they have a bunch of debt and otherwise liabilities on top of that so it should trade
significantly below the the mnav if it's you know if there's any justice in the world. The fact that it went above that shows it's like a bubbly scam thing.
Yeah, so when you think about it, let's say their assets,
the value of the company, well, hang on a second.
The value of the stock, let's say, is whatever, $10 billion,
and they own $10 billion of Bitcoin.
But if they borrowed $8 billion to buy the Bitcoin,
they really only own, you know, they're only positive $2 billion.
They're still 8 billion below their market cap in actual value because they don't have like
incoming receipts. You know, it's not like a business that has, oh, we've got sales of 5
billion a year. And we've, you know, we've, you know, like in the business world, like if you have a PO that's outstanding, like let's say I've got an order from a customer that's $10 million, that's viewed as like cash because it's a legitimate order and you will fulfill that order.
And those are sales that you expect to come in.
He doesn't have any sales.
He has no operating income.
So it's literally just a math equation of what do you own versus what do you have? And then even then I go like, like Joel's saying, why would I buy the
stock? What's why not just buy the ETF? And that's where I think I can see people who own the stock
going, you know what? I was in this for Bitcoin and it's not even coming close to performing as
well as Bitcoin. So why the fuck am I buying this?
And if they just say, I'm going to sell it by an ETF and things start getting ugly, right?
The price starts cratering and cratering.
You as a consumer, you go, oh, I just want the Bitcoin.
I don't need all this drama.
And so that's where I think people could just abandon the whole concept and just say i'm just
gonna buy the etf and i don't need it because it's not it's a zero you know it's a zero sum game
your dollars go in one place or the other yeah and if you think about it he started by buying by
you know issuing shares and selling that and then he used that money to buy bitcoin oh my gosh it's
so good and then he drives the price up makes a bunch of money selling that. Eventually that can't be sustained anymore. So then he keeps creating these
new products, new forms of debt, new things to keep milking people. And then if you notice,
how is he actually going to pay for all the stuff that he's promising, he is putting it all on the first,
on the, on the lowest level of the pyramid, the MSTR holders, where he's diluting the shares of
MSTR is issuing more. And he's promising yields from these other new products that also in the
fine print say, we can just stop giving you yields at any time for any reason, which is pretty crazy.
and say we can just stop giving you yields
at any time for any reason,
which is pretty crazy.
And right now, they're raising money
to keep in raising fiat,
to keep in fiat to pay other people.
And that is literally the textbook definition
almost of a pyramid scheme at that point.
Because at least with Bitcoin,
there's no pyramid scheme necessarily because it is an asset is a scarce asset and it will probably do better over
time than the fiat but here you have him just he's taking investor money and then giving it to other
investors that he already promised and there's nothing else in between other than operating
costs and his stupid jets and his his chat gvt image subscription for
cringe shit and so like there's all this on top that's just bleeding the money away and it's just
going to go away again unless he buys bitcoin but the only so literally here's the thing it does it
could make sense for sailor right for him but not for the shareholders because the shareholders are constantly diluted the only way
this could make sense for them more than just buying bitcoin or an etf or something is if he
actually strategically ironically enough for the name um bought bitcoin lower and then actually
sold it higher the problem is he can't sell it because then that just collapses the whole
thing because he's created this big like pumpy cult thing. No, no, no, die with your Bitcoin and
all this crap. But like around, you know, a month ago would be a great time to sell a bunch. And
then you just, you know, when it comes right around now, maybe buy some, but maybe wait like a year or
two if you can, and then just buy a bunch more and then guess
what you already your entry level price gets lower and lower and then you actually have something
of value but that's not really what he's doing as it turns out and when you're sitting in cash
go buy treasury bonds or something that's earning yield or maybe you maybe you create your own
stable coin or some shit like that like tether played it right and and i do think that too about
the corporate treasuries i probably have a post a post about it. If they're willing to
sell, like if they have a commitment to say, look, I'm buying this, we believe in this long term,
but we also are going to spend some resources on understanding when the market's a little hotter
than it should be. And we're going to unload at that point. And we're going to, so you're going
to act as this ballast where you're going to, when times are bad, we're going
to be there to buy up a bunch because we got a lot of cash. But when times are good, we're
going to unload a bunch. Like the goal is to, you know, decrease the volatility, which
his strategy is increase the volatility. You know what I'm saying? Like he's still playing
the game. But if you're a believer in the asset
um I mean yeah and you've been around long enough Joel you know that like
after you've been here for a while you feel like all right it's gonna it's gonna come back it's
always gonna come back when it goes down it's gonna come back when it goes up it's gonna come
back so the experience tells you just play the long game with it and he just hasn't done that
oh dude yeah he's got to be exhausted dude he's got to be he's been running
he's been running ragged marketing bitcoin for five straight fucking years
yeah like i like it's an clearly an enrichment scheme for him. Yeah.
I think that's the real thing you see with this behavior.
I think he's very,
he knows a lot about how things work and like he fuds self custody,
of course,
because self custody gets,
takes things away from him.
And then when people freak out over him,
righteous,
rightly slow he
knows when he's gone too far he has to go and do this big thing about whatever and he knows exactly
what he's doing and that's the thing is he's milking these poor bastards who give him money
and that's why he keeps on rotating to a new group of people every single time there's so many
micro strategy products. What happened to
just buy Bitcoin, but then you, okay, you invest in his company if he just buys Bitcoin, but wait,
there's more, there's these new freaking offerings that have new different yields and super high.
And he says like, for those, he market is for those who like, for people who like money,
like that's the scammiest shit in the world. It keeps moving because if he kept
on jerking around the same set of investors with the same stock, they would start to sour on it.
So he has, he invented an infinite shit coin printing machine under the auspices of being
all for buy Bitcoin somehow. And he just keeps doing it. And I think it's going to work out
okay for him. I mean, I don't exactly know if MicroStrategy is going to collapse itself in the next few years.
I definitely know that the things he sold to people, the shit coins or stocks or whatever you call them,
I do know they are going to collapse.
And so who knows?
But I do have to run now.
It was only a short little dip in here.
The reason I dipped in, other than i miss you guys honestly um is we have a space tomorrow where we'll be talking about some
of this stuff on the dash space and if you want to come listen but also talk you're more than
welcome to and continue this in case there's something left off the table because what time
are you four o'clock bitcoin it's noon eastern time so i don't know what time zone you're in, but maybe a little bit before then.
No, that's noon Eastern.
I'm Eastern.
Maybe.
I don't know.
I'll be there, Mr. Dash.
I'll show up.
I won't be so wild.
Perfect.
Come speak.
What do you think of his voice?
I actually have heard Dash before i'm pretty sure so i thought your voice was dash and i was just kind of like making a comment from where i'd heard him before so yeah well that's a
quite the blue ball right there yeah i just gave you the shoulder no it's good for you
underdog over here.
I don't think I've heard before.
But I thought underdogs sound like Dash.
Underground, underground.
Underground, I'm sorry.
I'm not like that old superhero, underdog.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Sounds like you paid attention in school.
No, I see under,
on my screen,
all I see is under G,
and my brain says he's underdog.
Okay, I got you.
I'll take it.
The underground underdog. Maybe I should change my name,'s underdog. Okay, I got you. I'll take it. The underground underdog.
Maybe I should change my name underground underdog.
You guys both got good voices.
All right.
Well, good.
All right.
I got to head out, but I am going to just, if you're okay with that, Mr. Underdog,
you can just leave the account on and just tell people that I'm not here,
just to keep people thinking, oh, my gosh, Dash is in the space.
You think there's a high demand for talking to Dash?
Yeah, just tell them, like, I don't know.
I can come back if it's an emergency.
How did you pull that off?
Now you got me curious.
How did you get this?
Pull what off?
How did you get the control of the Dash?
Have you just owned it from the beginning?
No, I started working for dash i had
a treasury proposal got passed at the beginning of 2024 and as part of it was just doing this
a few different groups manage it but everyone's lazy so i just do it for the most part there are
other people that use it but um i just sort of have free reign to like pump the thing finally got in the monetization threshold which is nice too because i'm all about sustainability oh nice but anyway all that stuff's
good all right i gotta go make food see you bye-bye yeah see you later man yeah i remember
thinking when litecoin was we were talking about man we want why why isn't the foundation monetizing
that litecoin handle and they finally i think i imagine they finally
did they've got an engagement but go ahead animal sorry no i mean and just to finish what what you
were saying like it's it's no small feat to get engagement the way they're doing um it must cost
them something right for a non-profit um well i'm saying they're probably making some money now
because of Twitter.
Oh, yeah.
It's possible.
I remember thinking that for a while.
Like, dude, they had a million followers just sitting there,
and they're doing nothing with it for, like, years.
Like, why are they not monetizing this thing?
Because I was like, let us take control of it.
But, hang on, I got Ethan.
Before Ethan goes, I just wanted to ask Scotty what he thought of my voice.
Everybody has to have their voice.
Hold on a second.
Scotty.
Hold on a second.
Go ahead, Animal.
Speak again, because I got to see.
And we'll say the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy i was over there i was staring and posting no you got a good voice too so yeah i give you a good
voice too check appreciate that sir yeah i mean it's important because people aren't gonna listen
to you unless your voice is kind of smooth and you know i came in pretty rough there i can go
all the way i can call you a motherfucking
god you got that southern twang in your voice yeah i'm i'm from north carolina i'm on the east
coast a lot of people peg me for texas yeah you don't have a yeah north carolina isn't even that
thick anymore you know yeah most cities are becoming very modernized yeah i was listening to a um a guy last night um in a taco tuesday
um which is a good little space that showed up last night that i jumped into and listened
and he had like really deep southern voice or something maybe alabama um places like that it
gets really deep and you know i like voices sure it's nothing to do with any of your whatever whatever whatever
i'm just i'm just commenting because that's what this is about really i got that a lot in the
beginning i've been doing this for a while i i was at one point light coin underground so
that's my crypto background but uh i get people come up to me and be like dude you get a great
voice for radio and i'm like i'm just a dude talking into my iphone you know i've been amazed i'm actually amazed at how well the microphones work on the phones
i agree i agree i work at a tax office don't shoot me but i worked at a tax office a private
tax office for about 10 years and i would answer the phone and they'd be and they would tell me
all the time i i did i call it a radio? I said, no.
It's funny.
It's shit, man.
Because you just get people.
People are used to a certain kind of thing. And when you have that voice, and some of you guys definitely got it, I hear it.
So I don't know what you mean for a living.
You know what it is?
It's being relaxed.
I think that's the thing that, you know, Animal and I have been doing this a long time.
I think when you do this enough, you're yourself. And you're not trying to put on like, hey, everybody, what's going on?
You're not trying to put on some kind of like character.
You're just being yourself.
That's when I think it comes across most genuinely, you know.
I agree.
I agree.
And I tend to go into character.
So I'll heat up and you'll hear me do some things.
You'll be like, is that the same guy?
It's the same guy, but I'll heat up and you'll hear me do some things. You'll be like, is that the same guy?
It's the same guy,
but I'll fire up an heartbeat on you.
I'm pretty sure all of you guys with those voices can fire up just like me.
And I'm going to shut up and listen again.
All right.
I do.
I'm going to do a sidebar. If somebody wants to keep talking about micro strategy,
I'm good with that or whatever strategy.
But I,
I ventured into the pixel this week, animal. I don't know if you
saw me post about it. I was like, all right, I've done my research. I'm going to buy a Google pixel
10. I'm getting away from the iPhone. And, uh, it was, I'm not going to hate on it. I just, within like a day or two, I was like, this isn't going to be it.
It was such a challenge to navigate it. And just, I started thinking this daunting task of
relearning this whole operating system and setting up new accounts everywhere and shit. I'm just like,
forget it. So I took it back today. I was like, I can get, I can.
And also the other thing is I've been using Grok more than Gemini lately.
And I was like, well, I don't love, I mean, not that I hate one or, you know, not for
any particular reasons to try it out.
And I, I felt like Grok presented information in a more, uh, in a way that was easier to
consume.
I liked the way it presented information more than with Gemini.
And dude, I fixed a PC.
I was having an issue with a laptop for fucking years.
I don't know if anybody has a Windows PC where the disk space,
the hard drive or whatever, is always running at 100%.
It wouldn't shut down properly. It wouldn't, it wouldn't shut down
properly. It wouldn't sleep properly. And I've gone through so many times I've sat up like
hours doing these tutorials that I'm reading online on how to fix this shit. And finally,
I was the other night, it was fucking up again. And I took a pic. I said, look, I, I had this
computer is doing this and this. I've heard it might be the BIOS settings, BIOS settings.
And it was like, all right, open it up.
Take a picture of this screen.
So I took a picture of it.
Okay, so what you want to do, get rid of this, this, and this.
And then I said, all right.
And all I use this computer for is just play games.
I don't, just like simple games off Steam.
So what can I get rid of to get rid of all the bloatware?
And dude, basically I got rid of like 80% of the shit that was on that computer and it
runs fucking perfectly.
And it took like a half hour of my time,
you know?
And I'm like,
this shit's amazing.
But pixel,
I didn't,
I didn't,
that's what I wanted to tell you is I just didn't love it enough.
I didn't,
I didn't love it.
You tried it. I mean, it, for sure. It's, it's, it takes, you have to, you have i just didn't love it enough i didn't i didn't love it tried it you tried it i mean it for sure it's it's it takes you have to you have to integrate your
whole life how how hard was it for you to migrate your phone number away from my message
uh no not hard at all oh really so they just what you have to go into your apple account
like i've never done it so i'm just well they just change your e-sim to your new phone and then you just have to turn off i message that's
all i had to do oh okay but you know what it was it was just obviously the navigation thing i could
have gotten over but there were just weird things that like this this morning or yesterday morning
the alarm's going off on the phone on your apple you know it says snooze or turn off
right all right on google i had to like pick up the phone and type in my password and alarm going
off and shit i'm like what the fuck is this you messed up there's something because i don't have
to do that well i don't know and again and again there were so many things where i was like i know this probably isn't the way it is i know i can fix it but i'm not i'm just not yeah i mean i get it
because whenever whenever someone asks me to help them with their iphone i'm like struggling with
the menus i'm like how the fuck do you go back like why can't i just swipe left to get back to
the preview you have to look for a little arrow and tap it.
Okay, now I'm back.
I would agree.
That's the nice thing about it.
I don't, you see, for me, that doesn't come naturally.
Being like, having been like indoctrinated by Android.
Like for me, I use the gestures, right?
Yeah.
To navigate.
And so when I can't use gestures to navigate, I'm like, I'm a little bit lost.
I stumble.
I'm like, okay, where do I go?
And I'm looking for it, and I can't see it because my eyes aren't trained to look for that arrow.
And it's like, it's right there, right?
But I'm like, how the fuck?
Oh, okay, got it.
Yeah, I also got a bigger.
I also got the XL.
I think that was another thing.
I've got an iPhone 13 mini.
I'm old school.
So I've got this little-ass phone.
I've got this big clunking fucking thing.
I don't know.
Dude, I like the basic pixels.
I've always, like the Pixel 8, Pixel 9, I just get the basic one.
I like how small it is.
I feel like the larger form factor just is cumbersome.
I've got decent-sized hands, so I can rock the big ones.
But the smaller one's enough. It it's easier palm it's easier pocket yeah the big the
big ones feel like almost you're getting into a tablet but i uh yeah yeah you know honestly like
i bet you if you went and just bought it eight a pixel eight used or something they're probably a
couple hundred bucks it's probably an amazing fucking device you know what i mean right it's like compared to any laptop or ipad it's got an incredible camera
it plays all sorts of games you know so even just to use these things as wi-fi devices is
probably worth it but yeah and then it was like i was storing photos and it was like well you got
you know you're we imported all your photos over but now you're over memory so now you got to
pay whatever a month and i'm going shit i'm already paying that for apple wait did
you did you buy it in you yeah so you should have gotten like years or like you should have gotten
free space with with google photos i probably could have i probably could have done it i just
did because i mean like it's funny because like friends of mine have had issues where their their
iCloud space or whatever their phone space was was full of pictures right and they had to delete pictures
i'm like what are you i've never deleted pictures or had to delete pictures on my on my google
phones once you know it's it's never been an issue i've had but it's interesting to hear you have it
i'm just again i think it's well i have an apple i don't have to do that because i have an apple
subscription right so i was sitting there going my family's already an apple i'm paying x amount But I'm just, again, I think it's. Well, I have an Apple. I don't have to do that because I have an Apple subscription, right?
So I was sitting there going, my family's already on Apple.
I'm paying X amount.
Now I got to go to Google.
I'm just like, fuck it.
I think I just got over it.
I was like, nothing's really going to change unless I'm willing to put the work in.
And if I put the work into Apple, I can probably get everything I want out of that anyway.
So that's what I think it was like.
Yeah, yeah.
Why duplicate this thing?
But yeah, dude, Apple to me
is fucking dropping
the ball on this AI stuff.
And I don't know if they're panicking
inside their walls, if they've got a plan.
But it's embarrassing.
There are rumors
that they're going to go with XAI.
Yeah.
They're actually... I thought they were paying Google for Gemini for their custom version of it.
Really?
Okay.
Yeah.
No, it's not a rumor.
I think it's actually like fact now.
I think they're paying $1 billion a year, which actually is going to be kind of genius in a way because even
though they drop the ball if they can get away with uh you know using using gemini for a custom
apple um um then then why for a billion dollars for a billion dollars a year compared to like the
billions yeah that's the multiple tens of billions that these other companies are paying for their
uh llms it's like you know weird google would allow that okay so here's what it says right now
on apple um has its own on-device ai models but but for external models it uses ChatGPT for its Apple intelligence system.
But there are reports that suggest Apple will use Google's AI models for certain functions such as the new Siri to enhance its own offerings.
Yeah, that's what ultimately, to me, Siri is a fucking disaster.
I honestly despise it.
I honestly despise it.
No, I do too.
No, I do too.
You're sitting here in 20...
I mean, God.
The iPhone's been out for almost 20 years.
And there's some basic functions.
You're just like, why can't this do this yet?
We should have way more voice-activated shit than we do today.
Yeah, no, I just...
I'm looking at it too yeah they're paying them cash for uh a custom
or to run its own private cloud compute servers yeah and not google's public cloud that's pretty
cool uh yeah i think it's a billion that's not that's that's cheap you'd think in that world
but you know i think i also think it's not a bad move because then they're not,
if for some reason Google's falls behind somebody else's,
they're not anchored to it.
Right.
And that's their style, right?
And in a lot of cases, Apple's not been first to act,
but they're the first to...
Fucking monetize yeah it's a to monetize and to
and to do it like smartly or the the best way right they didn't they didn't have the first
mp3 player uh they were late to market with that but then are they gonna make it
you know then they're better than google can that's the thing like because google's already started and
look with with google like google's um uh decommissioning the assistant right um sometime
in march they're going to disable it from all systems from all their devices from their you
know uh android auto from the google home or the google nest things um it's all going to be gemini
you know can i tell you another thing i didn't like about the the google phone was the google
search bar at the bottom that i had to swipe up to search my apps i'm like i'd rather just search
my apps right away and uh and then sometimes the gemini i would almost rather maybe this is what i would what i like more
i like i want an assistant i want something that can control my phone with my voice that's what i
want i don't always want to know some random ass fact i can open an app for that you know
but i want to be able to so like like i don't know today i just got myself a let me give you
an example.
I'll let you talk.
Let me give you a quick example.
Like today I had a song that was playing and I wanted to add it to a playlist on YouTube Music.
So I said, hey Siri, can you add it?
And it's like, well, there's no integration here.
And I'm sure there's something, you know, because that's a Google platform.
It can probably happen there.
But I just want more that it can see my screen and do things and manipulate the apps for me i don't know why
that that seems to be this barrier that can't be broken but okay go ahead animal i'm sorry
yeah i know i mean i just uh i was saying i got a google watch um recently and um it's pretty
sweet like you know you don't need to you don't need to you don't even to say the the code you don't
have to say hey g right you just like i just bring my my wrist up to my mouth just ask it a question
and then gemini responds so it's a really nice ai tool act like a wearable um kind of like the
meta glasses except you don't look like a dork right But yeah, I see what you're saying with the whole being able to look at your screen
and tap on it and do things for you.
I don't know that it's a limitation,
like a technical limitation that they have,
more of a security nightmare.
Right.
A security minefield for them to navigate.
And certainly like on all apps,
it wouldn't be possible.
But within the Google-verse, they should be able to.
And already like, you know,
I can have insert entries into my calendar.
I have like a Google Keep, I moved recently
and we had this, my girlfriend and I shared this note
in Google Keep, which is their note-taking app.
Yeah.
And I could just tell it, hey, add this to the list.
You know, like we put these boxes and like these things in these boxes, add to the list.
You know, like box number 50.
You know, it's funny though, it was like that.
That was one of the things I thought too.
And then I started realizing like, you know, I can do, like Apple does that.
Siri will do that.
And for some reason, if I'm not using it today and that's where i
started to think about like if i really wanted to put the work in i could make this iphone do
probably most of the things i wanted to do and that and it's more just about putting the work in
you know what i'm saying yeah i don't know i like i don't use an iphone so i couldn't uh i couldn't
speak to that like it you can just create a list make a shopping list for today add this to it like okay it's winter now right in canada i wear gloves when
i go outside hey i don't yeah yeah hey it's cold as fuck hey um so i wear gloves i wear i have a
toque right uh sometimes a scarf even if i'm going outside for a long period of time anyways um if i need to make a call or you know
ask it to change the song or to skip the track or whatever um i just bring my wrist up to my mouth
and i say hey like change the song and it'll do it see airpods without taking my gloves off
airpods do that you say hey siri skip this track. Sure, yeah.
Which I didn't have that capability.
I didn't like that.
I had them hooked up.
I had my AirPods hooked up to my Google phone,
and I said, hey, Google, and it didn't hear me.
That's weird.
I know.
I don't know if it's because it's, and again,
you know, I had already made up my mind.
I was like, it was.
I don't like this.
I felt like such a wuss.
I went back into the phone store with my tail between my legs.
I just got defeated by this thing.
It was more just like...
That's fair, dude.
I just was like...
Can I ask something?
It's the navigation piece.
Of course, Scotty.
Go ahead.
Do you ever have... I i'm gonna turn it off as
soon as i ask this question because i want to listen to your responses but telepathic um
communication with with this do you think that we you get telepathic communication via the phones
um with the ai or whatever you call it and have you ever had any of that happen in your
reality where you have things start to happen that just don't make sense and it seems like you've
communicated with something through your heart you're talking about synchronicity in so many
ways but where machines show up and your reality just shifts and
seems like humans go away and nobody will listen to you
um and then you eventually just have to shut up and go back to your tech
uh i feel like i have yes i'm gonna say yes by the, this is right up my alley. I'm totally into this shit.
Yeah, I have experienced that.
I think it's real.
What are you talking about?
AI or AI overlord.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I honestly, dude, I think that this AI tech has only come out to consumers recently, but the US government probably and the Chinese government have had access to stuff that's way more sophisticated for at least 10 years.
Do you think they've trained us and tested us?
Yes.
Honestly, dude, I think that we're all performers in a ballet that's being orchestrated by some master AI.
It's only 9.50.
Okay, I'm turning back off.
A ballet? Come on, man.
Man, for everything to work so beautifully,
and for these coincidences to happen, the synchronicities to happen on such um
was this a granular level to make it look like coincidences you get back into the god thing
do you believe there's some sort of god that's pulling the strings
probably call it whatever you want generator operator destroy Like, it's an acronym, right? God's an acronym? Yes. Oh.
What is it?
What's it stand for?
Generator Operator Destroyer.
I thought you were going to say Overlord Destroyer.
Good old, I don't know.
It's dog backwards.
That's all they say.
I don't know.
I do think that there's no reason why we wouldn't have had an AI before now. It actually kind of baffles me that the universities haven't done this like 20 years ago.
tracking it and analyzing it.
Like that's not,
it's computing power.
That's the thing.
This isn't even,
I don't even think this is a,
at this point,
I don't think this is an exponential device yet.
I still think AI is linear.
It's brute force.
Cause it's not intelligence yet in my mind.
Does that make sense?
Yeah,
I agree.
So we haven't seen exponential growth yet i think yeah what we're seeing is what we're allowed to see first of all
just not not to keep it in like to because i'm not speaking in terms of rational reality i guess
in terms of uh what we know what we can prove i'm just curious as to what scotty thinks
about this.
Like, I want to hear other opinions because I only have my own opinions.
I've just experienced things that nobody will listen to and I can't explain away.
Give me an example of what you mean.
Maybe that'll help.
One time my truck broke down on the side of the road and I needed water.
And so I have an Indian in me and I started chanting water.
As I walked down the side of the highway at 100 plus degrees in the sun so bad I couldn't freaking see.
And nobody would stop and my phone wouldn't work.
And this big machine started shooting water over the trees.
I'm in the middle of a highway in the middle of North Carolina.
And I started walking to this machine.
And I went through the woods.
And when I got to that machine, I freaked the fuck out.
And stuff like that continues to happen to me and i have no explanation
for it and when i try to explain it to people they just shut me down so do you think is there a
reason you're unwilling to accept that that might be something supernatural like mystical you're
like you think oh i said i accepted nobody else will let me ask you something like you think oh i accept it i accept it nobody else will
let me ask you something do you ever look at the clock and it's like one one one
or two twenty two or one two three four no one two three four is mine one two three four
you randomly look at the clock during the day for like seven days in a row and you're like
one two three four yeah um often stop looking at the clock on your lunch break, you know?
I mean, exactly.
I stopped looking.
I took Tom out of, um, a lot of my stuff because of stuff like that.
I couldn't, you know, I heard that if, if you are experiencing those kinds of
things, it means that you're on the right track that you're where you're
supposed to be.
Yeah.
It can be very
unsettling and cause you to be um or my in my case not being able to function in normal society
yeah so i i can i chime in on something with that yeah um i forget what they call it, but in 99% of the cases, and I'm not trying to unvalidate what you're saying, but in 99% of the cases, I forget what they call it, but it's something circumstantial.
your say your truck broke down and your phone was dead. And let's say you're also a smoker and you
also didn't have any cigarettes. Um, but you weren't thirsty. You start walking down the
highway and you see this, uh, you see this machine spraying water over the trees in the distance,
but you don't even, but you don't even think about that because because water itself is not on your mind
so it's not in your focus but this driver flicks a cigarette half smoked out his fucking window
and you're feeling so hard that you that you bend down and pick up that cigarette and you're like
is the universe doing something to me um both of those things can happen in that scenario but it's just
the fact the fact that you were thirsty that brought your focus to the machine spraying water
as opposed to the cigarette that some driver flicked out of his window and it's kind of like
that same thing where it's like confirmation bias yeah and you're you're you know all of a sudden
you're you're thinking about oh i should
really buy a new pair of shoes and then you get on facebook and all you see is shoes ads now it's
really not that you happen to be talking about shoes in the background to your wife saying you
really need a new pair it's just that shoes on your mind and those are the things and those are
the ads that you notice when you're scrolling through facebook um but do you also think lord
what did you just tell me brother i was just listening to you but i don't drive a lot i have
um i'm blind in one eye so when i get in a vehicle and drive it's pretty rare for me um when i'm on
the side of the road and my truck overheats and a half a mile down the street a machine starts
shooting water over trees that are so hot.
And then I walk to the machine and it's a cornfield
and they shouldn't be shooting the water to the highway
and nobody will respond to anything I do.
I don't think I have any kind of bias.
Yeah.
It was a situation where it may have nothing to do with AI. It just seems to be that there's this machine that showed up that
miraculously gave me water but freaked me out when i got to the goddamn thing because i realized that
it may kill my ass and i ran from the son of a what was it like a giant sprinkler or what
okay no it was what i was what i call ai farms now because i it was like a barrier on this highway
and i i walked for like the machine was like a half a mile from my truck but when i tried to get
to it it was like i had to go through all these woods the hills that it was like they barricaded
the farm because i was trying to get to a farm.
I eventually got through it and it was cornfields.
I immediately recognized the corn was way too big because I grew up in the country.
But the machine was shooting water up in the air and that's what I needed for my truck was water.
It was like 100 fucking degrees.
I love the sun, but that day I hated it. And I eventually got to this machine, and it was so fucking big, it freaked me out.
And maybe I'm crazy.
Maybe I related a whole bunch of shit to all this.
But I couldn't get water in my jug because the water was shot up so high because the machine was so big.
So I ran for my life because i was afraid because i
thought there was going to be people there now i'll let you go back to anybody that wants to
comment to that because the freaked me out and it seems to be related to all the other stuff
that i do i've been in crypto since bitcoin was 10 cents and um no i didn't start buying it at
that point but i've been looking at it and studying it and listening to it.
And I've had a lot of stuff happen to me up to this point.
And I didn't. I mean, I understand what you're telling me.
I listened to the guy that just spoke to me and went through all that stuff.
I get it. I know how people are.
I know how people are, but this wasn't that case.
And I wouldn't tell you if it didn't hit me in my head that maybe I was
communicating to this shit a little bit too much and I wasn't ready for it.
So that's what I'll say about what happened to me.
That's crazy.
Do you ever, um,
ever you pro someone and then let me just i
just want to ask
some more
questions to
scotty about
this um do
you ever think
of someone and
then they call
you know
all that
all that
your brother
your father
all kinds of
stuff like that
through my since
i was about
seven years old
so all this
stuff is not
not yeah it's been happening to me for a long time that's what i'll say stuff like that through my since i was about seven years old so all this stuff is not not
yeah it's been happening to me for a long time that's what i'll say yeah i mean yeah that happens
to me too quite a bit and i've always wondered like is it like is it some kind of esp you know
and extrasensory perception type of thing like is there is there an astral plane that we're tapping into who knows but yeah that stuff freaks me out and i love it i love talking about it
i don't mind talking about it either and a lot of people just think i'm off my rocker and i'm crazy
but i'm telling you i'm telling you for a reason in case that happens to you because normally
nobody's going to talk to you about it
no matter how much it's real to you no matter how much you understand and you've been shown
nobody's going to listen to you and it takes there's only a few folks in the world that'll
even bring it up and put it on the table for you in case that happens to you for sure dude yo i
don't talk to people about this stuff at work
you kidding me like that's one way that's one way to lose friends um or to get strange looks and
stuff at the office but uh yeah i mean my psychologist loves talking about this stuff so
that's cool that story track that story checks out well this is what i want to say though like
um you know crypto i can't see your full name but the interesting part is like how it's how you perceive the world like you can
analyze the statistics and say well you know it could be this it could be that try to rationalize
it or you can kind of believe in the magical explanation right and maybe it's just a difference
in how you look at things and maybe us trying to intellectualize shit all the time should sometimes go, you know what?
It's all right to believe in magic once in a while.
There's no harm in it.
Yeah.
Speaking of AI, it's pretty crazy.
I just bought this new camera system for my new house.
And I didn't know it at the time.
But so I go and start hooking all these cameras up and shit and then and then uh you know download the app and start looking at this shit is
like even my camera system is ai powered now to where like my phone will notify me uh hey your me. Hey, your daughter's home. Like,
it's crazy.
Like,
it's like facial
recognition, all this crazy
shit. Yep, exactly.
There's so much stuff.
Yeah, it's too much.
It's too much to even think about. So do you think
it's a good thing? Do you think these AI data centers
that people are protesting about,
I'm 50-50 on them.
Part of me thinks it's a really bad thing.
I think AI shouldn't be free
because it's being abused like crazy
and it won't be free for long.
But I think these data centers,
if they truly are driving up people's electric bills,
I think that's fucked up.
Yeah.
Yeah, that part of it kind of sucks.
But probably the thing I'm excited most about with AI
is just fixing all the shit that us humans haven't been able to fix.
My wife just two weeks ago happily got the all clear from cancer.
And I'm like, why is this still a thing like get some damn ai models
on this figuring this shit out because we sure as fuck can't do it and sorry about my swearing or
whatever there's so many things there's so many things like that and And when it, when it stays, when it stays free and, you know, and,
and things can be put in the hands of, uh, people that actually want to get shit done,
um, then maybe, maybe some more good shit will come out of it. You know, um, medical breakthroughs
is like really one of the bright spots that, that I have hope for AI. Um, and you know,
for AI.
And, you know.
Yeah, I'm hopeful
it brings a ton of abundance.
That's my
dream, but
it's just hard to believe it.
We don't have a history of
some generous
gazillionaire gives away
a technology that hasn't happened in a long time.
But it feels like that's what we need. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Um, and you know, I, I think that if it does go exponential,
like eventually it'll be like, you won't be able to stop it, you know? And I think that it'll be,
I think that's when you're going to see the most good come out of it.
Yep.
Yep.
For sure.
I'm not afraid about like the fricking Skynet and taking over shit or like whatever, like, I don't know, take down the networks.
I don't, I don't need to be on my phone and I could touch a little more grass anyways.
You know what I mean?
No, I would, I would actually completely agree with that.
That's one thing I'm not.
I'm the same way.
I don't have a fear of that.
It's just, to me, I don't feel like humans will lose control of it.
Maybe I'm naive.
Maybe they'll put that on my tombstone, right?
Yeah.
I mean, it may help us or force us to lose control of like how we spend our time and,
and you know,
things like that.
But,
not your day to day.
I think it can only benefit and I might be naive in that same way,
but I'm hopeful.
Dude,
I guess I can tell you guys something.
This is crazy.
So I've had this old iPhone.
We're talking about phones all day.
Forever.
And it had an old work email that was like connected to the login, the Apple ID.
And I couldn't get rid of things on the phone.
Like there were apps that needed to be updated,
but since I wasn't signed in, it would ask me
for my password. I couldn't retrieve my password
because it was connected to a dead email.
I just
sat here
and was dicking around
with it because we're talking on the phone. It was sitting here.
I had charge. I just
put in a password that worked.
Nice. I'm talking like five years this thing
i've had sitting here i'll choose to that cheers do you have any crypto wallets on it
no i was i was always able to get into it that's the thing i could get into it but
um so everything like that's all gone but uh that was awesome because my whole goal was to
turn into just a music player.
And every time I'd try to play something, it would come up like, log in.
You have to log in.
You have to log in.
It would just basically ruin the fucking phone.
Yeah, yeah.
Hell yeah!
Let's go AI, dude.
I think AI is a phone.
Speaking of phones, I was one of the ones that got conned into the, the,
the second,
Solana phone,
which was a flop.
So I got that sitting on my desk and a little bit of a disappointment.
What was the promise?
What was the promise of the Solana phone?
What was supposed to be the point?
I mean,
it has some good things,
but,
the main,
well, one of the main reasons that I wanted that phone was because my brother-in-law, he bought the first Saga phone and he got
like $1,400 of Bonk on the phone and the phone only cost him 500 bucks.
So, you know, so it was like profit generator right out of the bat.
And,
and they didn't,
they didn't really clarify the,
the airdrops for this phone.
Like this phone actually came with zero airdrops,
on it as opposed to the saga one.
and then they built up,
they're going to call it,
um, Solana, uh, up, oh, what are they going to call it?
Solana Seeker Season or whatever.
It was supposed to be like September where you're going to get all these airdrops and shit.
And they were kind of all a bust and didn't really get jacked. But I do like the seed vault and um the custom solana address that you
get with it and um the phone itself is okay but i just use it as a um just another device like you
said just a wi-fi phone pretty much yeah it feels like we should have like this was weird like
because there's a trade-in they trade your old phone in for a hundred bucks i'm like i don't
know a hundred bucks i'll keep this thing around oh right yeah well not only that but i'm super
paranoid so any of my phones i i never trade in i just i keep them and crypto does make you like that yeah for sure i don't i don't want some like
plugging my phone into some ai machine and then being like yeah recover all this stuff
you know some some dude sitting in at a desk in india or something taking all my crypto
all right so hey i'm going to circle back to micro strategy so everybody who's in here i don't know
if you've been here since the beginning, we're talking about MicroStrategy.
I asked AI, what is Michael Saylor's
worst case scenario?
The worst case scenario is a
forced Bitcoin sale.
A sphere drop in the price might force it to sell a significant
portion. His large sale would further crash the price, creating negative feedback loop.
Insolvency or bankruptcy.
In an extreme prolonged bear market where Bitcoin's price falls below around $15,000,
MicroStrategy would drop below its liabilities, potentially leading to insolvency or bankruptcy.
Massive share dilution. If the company cannot repay its bondholders in cash,
it could be forced to issue a massive amount of new stock to cover the debt at the bondholder's
put option dates or maturity. This would heavily dilute existing shareholders and drastically
reduce the value of the stock. Index? Oh, exclusion.
Okay, the company could be removed from major stock indices like the NASDAQ 100
if its crypto ratio becomes too high relative to its core software business.
This could force a...
Oh, it could trigger a forced selling by passive index funds,
applying significant downward pressure on the stock price.
So that could just be because if it becomes too small or it's excluded,
the big pension funds and money market accounts,
your Vanguard index funds will not buy that stock anymore.
They'll sell it.
Okay, personal and legal worst case.
His personal financial loss,
his wealth is heavily tied
to his significant stock holdings.
A collapse in the stock
could result in massive
personal financial losses,
mirroring or exceeding
the multi-billion dollar loss
he already experienced
in the dot-com bust.
Regulatory and legal trouble.
He's faced legal and regulatory challenges in the past. Now, this is just
saying, no specific charges. He could be
maybe he's doing something wrong. Loss of credibility.
Alright, so there you go.
What do you think about those ideas, Animal?
Does it worry you that, yeah, if there's a forced sale because it gets removed from the NASDAQ 100,
that could be some sort of cascading effect?
I mean, yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Like, I'm looking at it closely and I don't...
I have exposure to it.
I know you do.
That's why I'm talking to you.
Yeah, I don't know.
I just...
I don't see it happening.
I think as long as Bitcoin continues performing.
I'd say as long as it's above 25k,
MicroStrategy will be over.
Solve it.
But what about going up?
That's the challenge.
Like if, I don't know,
last year MicroStrategy was like 400 bucks, right?
And Bitcoin was lower than it is today.
Right.
So that's the weird part.
It's been going consistently down while the asset's going up.
So here's like, what value do they provide Bitcoin?
None.
Besides holding on to like 65 or 650 000 bitcoin like what value do they have besides being
our largest holders i don't know none yeah no and when he starts talking about integrating like
their own layer twos for you know people's identities and stuff that turns a lot of people
off and probably hurts their
i'll be honest what is surprising to me is that he's not putting it in anything to even like 10
of it in some sort of yield bearing instrument because they're out there just put them in defy
or put them i mean gosh what's the one that uh Lantern Finance, right?
They do loans and borrow.
Right, yeah.
They could earn interest in simple things like that.
And they're not.
That's another weird thing.
Sorry, my phone died.
That's a good point.
That's all right.
But again, I think it's because it would go against this ethos.
Why would you leverage a perfect asset? but again, I think it's because it would be go against this ethos. Right?
Like,
why would you put,
why would you leverage a perfect asset?
I don't know.
He needs a massive influx of adoption.
Like that's,
that's at the end of the day,
he needs,
he has to feel like they can add whatever a million new Bitcoiners a year for the next 20,
30 years and they'll be dead and you won't have to worry about it.
Yeah.
Well,
so my two cents on this whole thing is it's really funny when,
when crypto starts moving,
they,
they look to what's going to happen to strategy,
right?
I mean,
you've seen this one.
I mean, the, the, so many people like the, the number, what was it? Um, after the, the Luna
thing, it was like, Oh, if it drops below 23 K, like they're going to be liquidated. Um, and went all the way to just under 16 or whatever, and they were completely fine.
Um, but I think, I think realistically, um, my question is at what point does he stop
buying?
Because this can all be a thing of the the past that's completely irrelevant like what if
what if by the end of the year you know bitcoin's at 160k and this isn't even part of a discussion
anymore um what when is it not like what price does bitcoin have to get to to where it's not even feasible for him to purchase anymore.
Okay, so let's take that scenario.
That's a good question.
So let's say it doubles from here, okay?
And he's not buying anymore.
He's just buying and I guess he's not accreting value or whatever his phrase is to the underlying shareholder.
Why would I own his stock versus a Bitcoin ETF?
Well, you could, you could, you would be in and out just like you would be to any other company.
Right. So if, you know, people would trade it based on you know the the movement and forecast that
they see for bitcoin itself you know but when did you buy bitcoin then like what's the purpose of
microstrategy at that point at that point to the normies um not a whole lot but there's there's a
lot of people like how many how many people do you know have Bitcoin compared to the people that hold strategy?
It's a niche of people and, yes, his followers.
And it's just he has the multiple instruments, right?
So he's got like Stride and whatever, different leverage plays on it so he'll he'll have that you
know um yeah i guess i'm just saying like as a consumer like you said yeah some people have
money in the stock market and that's like the index fund thing is important because it means
there's kind of automatic money that gets put in because a pension fund just says oh we buy the
nasdaq 100 and they don't look at the individual stocks that's some inflow of money but automatic money that gets put in because a pension fund just says, oh, we buy the NASDAQ 100.
And they don't look at the individual stocks. That's some inflow of money. But if somebody is
not, I mean, if I have a retirement account and I can buy MicroStrategy in that same retirement
account, I could just go buy a Bitcoin ETF. So if I'm interested in Bitcoin, why would I own MicroStrategy rather than just buy Bitcoin?
Because you will own it without even purchasing it yourself because it's an S&P 500 company or it's in this index or in this index.
That's where people are going to have it.
That's the only thing to leverage debt with it.
So don't think of it from a person's
point of view. Think of it as
a company who can hold treasuries of
other stocks. They can
leverage this, which essentially is
tied to the belief
in the big old stockpile of Bitcoin.
I agree with you,
but they've got to do something with that money.
All they keep doing with the money...
No, they don't.
No, they don't.
Look at...
No, you don't.
Because look at how banks create money.
They create money through you leaving it there, not having it, and then...
No, they lend it.
They lend money.
It's going to be the same principle.
So that's what I'm saying.
He has to do something with money.
He can't just...
What he's done with the money right now, he's saying he's going to pay dividends on these shareholders. He's paying out money. He's not even he's not even using any cash he has on hand to generate income right now. That's the part I don't get because he doesn't need to. He has Bitcoin. People realize that you can't inflate Bitcoin right so you keep printing the amount of cash
that's being lent against it forever right the idea is that it will always the the the the amount
of cash will always be going up so i get it but even then even that scenario that doesn't guarantee
anything because people still have to go actively buy the share.
Right.
As opposed to just going and buying Bitcoin, they're always going to have that choice.
And they're going to go, why am I buying MSTR?
What value does it give me?
What do I get out of MSTR?
It doesn't give you or me any value. But at the corporate level, it actually gives Bitcoin a big, big, uh, leverage really.
It just leverages Bitcoin and debt. It's all rooted in speculation. Every single thing you're
talking about is rooted in speculation for sure. People need to believe this is going to be worth
more in the future. So they buy it and self-fulfill it. But they're not using any of it.
How big Bitcoin is and how much money is in the corporate field and in the S&P 500, it's
definitely manipulatable, especially with a stockpile that big.
So when they've got, you know, it's the cabal for Bitcoin, dude.
That'd be the, that's, if that's what you got to rely on,
that's a bad
prospectus
on a stock. If I opened up a stock
and it said, hey, the cabal is in it
for this stock, and that was their whole
sales pitch, I'd be like, we're...
They're never going to say that.
They're going to say it allows
you to leverage debt
just like property because Bitcoin's property.
It's not a good thing.
It just is a thing now.
And it's a thing that's possible.
And Bitcoin is a free chain.
Anybody can use it, even your enemy.
So use this as a lesson for Bitcoin.
Yeah, that's Bitcoin.
That has nothing to do with microstrategy. Microstrategy, strategy you can't it's the whole opposite of all those things so why
buy micro strategy it does nothing what it does is it directly it doesn't have nothing to do with
it because i agree with you they're completely different things they're intangible um totally
different aspects right but what it does do is it directly impacts the price of both
of them. They're going to be, especially if they can get, you know, until the bubble pops of,
you know, the debt bubble. Right. I mean, I heard people talking the other day about like,
they're scared of ending the fed. I mean, if you ended the fed, then this wouldn't work.
Right. But because we have this, we have this fact of our economy,
this shit's going to work.
And they fucking played it out, and it's probably working
until it's going to probably burn down.
But at that point, everybody involved has it in their personal account,
and the company can go bankrupt.
All right.
I see, like, you know, there's tons of other companies that are starting to do it too
you know in the same fashion so it's you know them them it only takes it only gives you money
for nothing anybody why wouldn't you do that as a business well you kind of think of it like
what you were talking about earlier right what like the value of the Bitcoin they have on the books as opposed to their shares.
There may be a premium at times and there may be a discount at times.
Unless they're – as long as they have that on their books and they don't over-leverage their hand too much, then the share price can only go so far before it's bought
up, you know?
I know.
And I guess it's just, it's like a playbook that it's, you know, people are doing it and
it's having a weaker and weaker impact on, cause they're doing it to pump a share price.
Like that's the name of the game, right?
Is they say my shares today are worth $8.
If I announce I'm doing a Bitcoin reserve and then I'm putting $10 million into Bitcoin, my share price goes up more than that $10 million.
Like that feels like what we're in, right?
Because it's happening all the time.
I'm a hater on the corporate treasuries.
I think we talked to somebody from one of these companies once.
I've talked to the, I think we talked to somebody from one of these companies once.
But, you know, I have a little bit of the Litecoin strategy, guys, but I think it's a silly concept.
It doesn't make any sense.
That money should be used to generate income.
If you have assets as a company, no company is like, I'm just going to buy a bunch of, I'm just going to build a room and just throw a bunch of cash in it
and have it sit there.
Nobody does that.
Businesses go,
you know, I need to buy a new building.
Banks do that,
and they're one of the most profitable businesses there are.
Because they're allowed to print money out of thin air.
That's why banks are profitable.
They're making the system.
Bitcoin can't do that.
MicroStrategy can't print Bitcoin out of thin air.
That's literally what they're doing.
It's IOU Bitcoin leveraged debt with money creation.
I know, but somebody's got to pay the piper.
At some point in time, somebody's got to pay back those debts.
And he's not selling Bitcoin.
Has he not said it 100 times he's not selling?
So how is he going to pay people
back if he never sells the bitcoin because if they keep leveraging debt then he'll be fine
those are evolving credit cards he's just got like and that's the same thing he's going to pay
higher interest rates you're asking about banks right how does he pay back how does he pay back
the lenders okay dude how does he pay back the lenders pay Okay, dude, how does he pay back the lenders? How does the bank pay us back if we all want our money back, okay?
It's the same thing.
No, because the banks can print money.
No, they can't.
My bank cannot print money.
Yes, they can.
When they give you a mortgage, they're printing money.
There's got to be an issuance, right?
right? It's the same thing, though.
It's the same thing, though.
It's the same business.
Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude.
dude, dude, dude. Time out.
Time out.
If Saylor had to pay back
those loans,
how does he get money?
Where does his income...
What generates money
for him to pay back his lenders?
So, all right, let me...
If it's future lenders,
that's a bad idea. Let's leverage that real quick.
Okay, so you've got, let's say, $10,000 worth of MSTR, which is at today's worth, $10,000 worth of Bitcoin.
worth of Bitcoin.
Okay.
Okay.
One to one.
One to one.
Yep.
You buy, you
bought it from me, MSTR.
Okay. You now have
this much,
I've got your cash
and you've got MSTR,
which is valued at Bitcoin's 10,000.
Alright? Okay.
So now,
that is
in circulation.
They can freaking trade it
just like they can any other stock.
It generates value
just like any other stock.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
How do stocks
generate value?
Well, I guess the company generates value.
So this is that
fallacy right this is that circular this is that circular approach because it's like
he's never gonna have to pay back the loans is what i'm getting how how can you mean he'd never
we just run over this there's there are times coming up he's gonna have to pay something
so this is my this is my understanding of it so he he has the vehicles that you're talking about where he pays dividends.
That's because he has, they have multiple different vehicles with different leverage factors.
And some of them are more stable and pay you a smaller return based on the performance of Bitcoin.
Right.
That's below just the parent value of Bitcoin.
So like,
let's say I forget which one they call it there,
but there's one of them that like,
this is buying Bitcoin with less volatility.
So let's say that you put a hundred K into this fund,
that's Bitcoin, but less volatile. And let's say Bitcoin you put $100K into this fund. That's Bitcoin, but less volatile.
And let's say Bitcoin goes up $120K.
Well, those people that had that fund, they didn't make $20K on their $100K.
They only made $10K.
And the same thing, the losses are diminished when it goes down.
It's less volatile than Bitcoin, right?
And then they have other ones that have larger returns that are more leveraged that'll you know
2x the performance of Bitcoin and those have higher dividends and those are
being paid out when pick Bitcoin pumps by the people that took the more stable, less volatile asset class,
and they didn't get those returns.
And what happens is they take fees on all of that
without ever having to sell Bitcoin.
That person that was supposed to, you know,
had a one-to-one on Bitcoin through that fund and through those dividends, they're not getting 100% of that.
You know, they're taking their little slice, and that's how they pay the dividends.
So it's like a lightning wallet.
It siphons a little money.
It's an exchange
at this point.
Yeah, but it's mostly like...
It only sells Bitcoin.
Right.
That's for debt, though.
It's not for Bitcoin.
It's for debt.
No, but dude, you gotta understand.
At some point in time,
when you have debt,
somebody wants some of their money back.
Would you agree?
Right, and he's got 600,000 Bitcoin.
So you're saying he's going to have to sell the Bitcoin, but he's told you he's never selling the Bitcoin.
Is he selling the Bitcoin or not?
But he doesn't have to because he can just make money on those vehicles that he's got.
I think they have five different leverage plays used on their Bitcoin treasuries.
So his business, I'm getting back to his business is an exchange.
You're buying the exchange side of his business that collects.
Exchange?
What's he have assets under management?
Debt.
Like $10 billion?
$10 or $100 billion?
Yeah, I'm not sure.
How much? $650,000
Bitcoin, right, Animal?
That was
times
$90,000.
He's got
$58 billion
under management.
I think it's
much higher than that.
So if one person wanted, you know, their loan back,
he could just take a debt out, leverage to get his Bitcoin.
I know, but at some point in time, he has to cut a check to somebody.
No, the thing is, he can always cut a check to somebody
because he'll never have to cut a check to everybody,
just like how the banks work.
No, but the banks... The Federal Reserve gives the banks the right to basically print money.
So you come and get a house that's $100,000.
They only have to have $10,000 in reserves in order to write a $100,000 mortgage.
They're printing money.
That's a law.
They're printing money.
They're a reserve.
The MicroStrategy is not a bank. That's this. They're not printing money out of thin air. That's your principle. They're printing money. They're a reserve. MicroStrategy is not a bank.
That's this.
They're not printing money out of thin air.
That's their principle, though.
I don't know.
I'm getting frustrated at why it's the same principle.
But they do.
MicroStrategy can print money out of thin air by issuing more shares.
Right.
It's not quote-unquote money.
It's value.
It's what people – there is no such thing as money anymore.
There's just value on what can be leveraged against what.
And so that's what he's got going on.
I get it.
I get what you're saying.
There's a lot of financial instruments,
but eventually the fucking ride stops.
You know what I mean?
Somebody's going to go,
hey, I need to pay someone,
because not everybody can...
With that, do you believe that the u.s you know the u.s economy is going down like the u.s banking system is is going down
same thing the road's gonna end yeah i think the same way about st mstr i mean i'm not comparing
them like they're obviously different things but the principle is is that they are creating the same, they have the same
vehicle for debt creation.
They don't leverage
taxes and run the fucking system.
Like, this is a business. It's a small,
tiny little business. They kind of do.
They have one of the largest shares of an
entire new line of value
that's completely separate from the US dollar.
So they're front-running
that game.
It's not like you
only get access through MSTR. That's what I'm
saying. There's other avenues. If you love
Bitcoin, there's a gazillion other avenues
for you to acquire. Right, but you can't
just by using Bitcoin
on L1 doing what you want to do
yeah, you can transact
for things, but you can't leverage debt.
You can't do it.
Oh my gosh. So you can't, right now you can can't transact for things but you can't leverage debt you can't do it oh my gosh so you can't right now you can buy a property by leverage by leveraging your shares of mstr
on on things right i don't know you're saying if i want to buy a house
right so i believe that's what these you, corporations put down on paper when they're buying, like, you know, multi-competences.
They leverage these types of assets against each other to build these things.
And so, like, that's the level we're talking.
We're not talking about you and me ever needing to use it. I'm telling you, I don't know what Kool-Aid's been drunken, but that's the level we're talking. We're not talking about you and me ever needing.
I'm telling you, I don't know what Kool-Aid has been drunken, but that's the craziest shit I've ever heard.
Why would MSTR be involved in me buying an apartment complex?
What the fuck does that have to do with MSTR?
There's a gazillion other instruments.
My bad.
No, my bad.
No, you bank.
Why would a bank take that deal?
A bank would go, a bank would be like, that's great. Sell your stock. I don't fucking care. No, no, no. You bank. Why would a bank take that deal? A bank would go, a bank would be like, that's great.
Sell your stock.
I don't fucking care.
No, no, no.
They actually, this is a real world scenario.
I actually just did this with my house that I just bought.
They wanted to see, my banker wanted to see my assets and all this shit.
And it was actually kind of funny because um the loan i was taking
out was pretty big and they wanted to see my assets and they're like do you have anything
else i'm like i got a whole bunch of crypto and i had to actually uh show them and i had to walk
through like what does this mean what does this mean oh okay i this mean? Oh, okay. I see the dollar value. So that allowed me to get the loan.
What,
what platform did you have that on?
I just showed him my Coinbase wallet.
so that means that coin,
that's weird though.
They would have to take,
so similar ownership of that.
Same thing with all of my stocks.
It's not, all of my stocks. All of my stocks.
They didn't use it as collateral.
They took it as collateral when they had no control over it?
No, no, no.
They didn't use it as collateral.
They just used it for my approval to show that he's very liquid.
Gotcha, gotcha.
So worst case scenario, he can liquidate stuff. But my point is there's nothing that MSTR
has some sort of exclusive rights
to being involved in a real estate transaction. Your first name.
It's the silliest thing. No, no. He's talking about
using it to create more debt. So with issuers
he can,
by their
stock value and
the amount of their stock,
they can say, hey, we have
this, we'd like to
raise debt
with the stock.
Which is the value. Okay first name guy comes to you and
says hey i want to borrow some money i've never paid anybody back ever but i'm gonna pay you back
like who's gonna keep giving money that doesn't make any sense this is not the same situation
what the what are you talking about you're saying he's going to pay off debt with by selling future no i'm saying that your concept of that money and
value is is not wrong in your day-to-day life but wrong in super mega corporation data life
they don't count dollars in fucking bills they count it in leveraged debt and that's all there
is to it i know so he has to keep selling
what you're saying is he has to keep selling to keep bringing in more dollars for him to leverage
like to put at risk everything else around bitcoin because bitcoin cannot be produced
so he's essentially created a one-to-one match printing out more bitcoin and then every time people leverage more debt
the dollar value of of mstr goes up quote unquote because it's actually falling against their bitcoin
so it's going to be a big play it's going to be a big play it's a new like it's a complete new
economic line outside the control of the federal reserve of course, they're going to try to get it involved in the stock market.
This may come from crashing down as the most ridiculous thing of all time.
It could.
But it might be 50 years from now.
It totally could.
You understand?
You're basing this on the fact.
I'm just telling you it's the same game.
I'm not saying it's infallible.
I'm not saying it's indestructible.
It's probably terrible and not good for anybody.
But the whole premise rests upon this one idea that Bitcoin is going up forever.
That's essentially everything you're telling me only works if Bitcoin never stopped increasing in prices.
The fact that there's not an underlying value besides speculation
that anybody's even brought up
in this conversation at all tells me
this is still doomed.
As a crypto investor, I say this.
Well, you can do
it. Think about it this way.
This is a much easier, simpler way to think about it this way this is much easier simpler way
to think about it think about like right now let's say all of their let's just say ease of
numbers let's say all of their stock was worth a million dollars yeah and all of their bitcoin was
worth a million dollars um they can and then and then uh the price in bitcoin doubles now all the
bitcoin that is backed is now worth $2 million.
What's going to happen to the price of their stock?
The stock's going to go up.
But before that happens, they issue more shares.
So the value of their stock only goes up 50% because they just issued 33 and a third percent more shares.
And that's how they made money.
I know.
But they need buyers.
Like in order to actually have it create value, when they issue more shares, the market has to buy those shares.
Those are new debtors.
Those are new people you have to pay back when you eventually sell whatever it is you're buying.
You get what I'm saying?
This isn't free money out of thin...
You're saying...
You guys are all saying the same thing.
It's completely reliant on future speculators.
Not necessarily.
Yes, it is.
No, no, no.
Because it's based on the premium of what those shares are backed by.
of what those shares are backed by. So in that same scenario, if, if, if now all the, that,
that stock is only worth a million dollars or whatever in total, but, but it's backed by $150
million with the Bitcoin, of course, people are going to buy it because there's a premium on it.
If it, if it was to go and solve it, it, they, they would, they would be made more than whole.
So people naturally are going to want to buy those shares.
That's the same reason why it was going up in value more than the price of Bitcoin at one point.
Okay.
And it doesn't have to go up forever.
It doesn't have to go up forever because doesn't have to go up forever because people
will sell when they think it's their top and they'll get out and then more people will buy
in later it's the same premise of i know why people it's all pure speculation everything
you're saying is about people who are buying who would buy this stock? There's no income outside of fleecing the stockholders, like you just said,
right? The people that get into these instruments and that they're investors,
they're speculating on this asset. Everything's rooted in speculation. There's no actual income
being produced of a service beyond speculation.
So it's an exchange.
You're trying to bring customers into an exchange hoping to extract fees from them.
That's all this sounds like.
Yeah, but it can be based on the value
of that underlying asset.
You take a gold mine company in Alaska
and it's not worth jack shit
and then all of a sudden you realize that,
oh, they own this land and this land and it's fucking worth jack shit and then all of a sudden you realize that oh they own this land and this land
and it's fucking packed with gold
the value of that
that's not micro strategy
they're not doing anything they don't produce anything
they don't do anything
but the same thing with the mining
company though
they extract gold out of the ground
they dig and extract
gold
I'm just I'm telling you there's nothing if bitcoin They extract gold underground. They dig and extract gold.
I'm telling you, there's nothing... If Bitcoin itself is not producing value,
what I mean by that is
if no one sees a purpose in owning the underlying asset,
then why...
If they don't own the Bitcoin,
they obviously don't see it as being important to hold.
They don't even get it.
And they're buying a paper representation of a thing that they don't even use.
It's weird to me.
That's all I'm saying.
I'm doing the same thing as buying it on Coinbase.
You are.
You are.
You know.
It's speculating.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
I'm not saying there's something wrong with speculating.
What I'm saying is that you end up.
Oh, sorry.
Hang on a second.
Rob, you your whole value proposition can't be that you're going to bring in new future speculators.
That is his whole game.
gain. He's going to get people to buy Bitcoin. He's going to get him to buy his instruments.
He's going to get people to buy Bitcoin.
He's going to get him to buy his instruments.
He's a huge marketing campaign that he thinks he can continually bring in new users to grow and
grow and grow to extract these fees from, I guess, or to pay off old debts. That's the pyramid
scheme part of it. You know? Yeah. I mean, I mean,
if you think,
if you think about it in that sense,
everything's a pyramid scheme.
Like I'm buying shares of Apple stock because I'm hoping that they take the
money that I,
that I put in with the shares that they sell and they,
and they,
they,
but,
but Apple can show you,
I agree with you.
I agree with you for the most part in the stock market.
You're right.
It's a ton of crazy speculation,
but Apple at least says I made this phone for $400 and sold it for
$900. Somebody gave me $500. I'm providing a product to the market. They're not just shifting
money around. You know what I mean? It could be a Forex company. Bitcoin could be... There's never
been a company that says my whole business
model is i'm going to buy gold and if you pay me money i'll go buy gold for you that would sound
like the stupidest business ever you'd be like well why would i just go buy gold myself why would
i need you to buy gold for me that doesn't make any fucking sense yeah i mean i i get that part
of it too but it's i know we're all rooting for him but he's got to unwind
this thing he's over
he's gotten over his
no that's where you're wrong I'm not rooting for him
right and
I don't think
that it's gonna work out
in the long run
but I also think that both things
can be true
right he's this is the play But I also think that both things can be true. Right? He's...
The cabal thing.
You have to believe that the cabal is in control
and that they've anointed Bitcoin as the thing.
They're trying to.
You're also forgetting one other big factor,
which is what everything is pinned against,
which is U.S. dollars.
So you don't even have to be a huge Bitcoin bull to benefit off of having Bitcoin.
Like Bitcoin doesn't have to do jack shit.
And if it just like stays doing its daily thing, I mean, the value of the dollar just is going to go down and down and down.
Same thing, same thing with gold.
Yep. Yep.
No. Well, gold's done pretty well.
No, no, no.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm saying compared to the U.S. dollar.
Oh, right. Yeah.
Dude, Doritos are doing well
against the U.S. dollar.
You know what I'm saying?
Right, right. Everything in my life has done really well against the U.S. dollar. You know what I'm saying? Right, right.
Every single thing in my life has done really well against the U.S. dollar in the last five years.
When you're listening to Sailor talk at all, that's like his bull case from the very beginning.
Why would I want to hold U.S. dollars on my books?
I'm telling you, it's a sales pitch.
He's using Bitcoin as this...
It might nuke Bitcoin.
It might nuke Bitcoin.
It won't nuke crypto,
and it won't nuke Bitcoin forever,
but it could...
Right, because it'll be a lesson
that people want it for the next time around.
Yeah.
Right?
It'll make...
It would kill... I think you'd still have... Yeah. Right? It'll make, you know, it'll, that would kill,
I think you'd still have,
you know,
I take that back.
If Bitcoin went down to 10 grand,
five grand,
it ain't,
it's not going to die.
Because the people who were in it,
like,
that understand what we're all talking about,
would know exactly what had happened.
You know,
that this,
that this fucking, uh, bullshit what had happened. You know, that this fucking
bullshit
What I think it does is
it opens up the can of worms.
It opens up the can of worms that is this
space. That is what we're talking about.
Like, the
complexity of something that should just
be so simple of the exchange of
value is just
so, like, obfuscated and and complex and nuanced
and damn near criminalized throughout the system and you know it's an eye-opening thing for sure
because people are going to realize that in order to understand this, you have to understand how everyone's being scammed.
Yeah, me personally, I'm super happy with,
like, a lot of people are like,
oh, Bitcoin, crypto's dumping all this, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, I was actually getting really upset
that, like, how...
I thought, like, the volatility was going to be done with and the ridiculous gains were going to be done with.
I made the most money that I've ever made in my life during the FTX collapse.
Like, thank God that shit happened.
And if we didn't have another pullback like this and that was the last we ever saw of it, I would be severely disappointed.
Like, I'm happy to shit dump so i'm happy to see shit like this i mean if i definitely don't want
to see ten thousand dollar bitcoin i have to disagree with you on that i never want to see
that ever again um all i'm saying is it could happen it would yeah? I mean, why would you not want to see $10,000 Bitcoin?
Holy shit.
Give it to me.
Because I got my bags packed, man.
I'm good.
You wouldn't want Bitcoin at $10,000 for whatever reason.
I would love it at $10,000.
Send that shit down there and I'll buy all of it because it's still going to a million one day.
What the fuck does it matter?
That's my take on it. I mean, they're going to's still going to a million one day. What the fuck does it matter? That's my take on it.
I mean, they're going to eventually send it to a million.
So if they send it to 10K, love it and buy all you can.
That's my take on it.
I mean, they're going to keep the narrative.
They're going to keep this thing going.
Some catastrophic event, right?
Some catastrophic event like Satoshi moves all his coins
or that's
the main one that people talk about but there's other things that could happen on grand scheme
you know global sphere type stuff especially when bitcoin's the first of its kind right there's a
lot of things that could happen it's never been tried it's never been tested there's and i'm not
saying that the network itself is vulnerable I'm saying that the people using it
in control and
have you know access
to more resources
than we know about you know
that's you know
it's the first of its kind
it's vulnerable
is all I'm saying
yeah I mean you know is all I'm saying.
Yeah, I mean, you know,
this gets into a very deep conversation,
I guess, at the end of the day.
It's like, you start talking about value and where it comes from
and is Bitcoin replaceable?
I don't know.
Like, it's the first of its kind,
but it's not unique.
It's only unique in people's minds, I guess.
I don't know. Right, and the value of Bitcoin
wouldn't disappear, it would move elsewhere.
That's also something to think about as well.
There's now fire escapes for people all over the place.
Yeah, which leads to a leveling off.
Like, I think that's where,
I think we all think we're going to see it,
a little bit of a flattening of the volatility
because, you know,
the speculators get washed out eventually
and the people who see the long term stick around.
So, yeah, I think this last pullback was enough.
I think that we washed out enough of the leverage.
And I don't know.
I'm ready to see it go higher.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I would love to see it.
Hey, guys.
You guys' lifetime, you don't think you're gonna
see bitcoin go to a million in your lifetime oh i i no i do yeah i will so that if it goes to 10,000
you wouldn't hawk every fucking thing you had to get some i mean that that's kind of my argument. Yeah, probably.
But you're going to have a lot of like you're going to have a lot of disbelievers.
If you've seen $10,000 Bitcoin right now, you'd have a lot of people leave crypto.
That would never come back.
Would that stop you from bond?
Wouldn't stop me, but it would stop how long it takes to get to a million.
You know what I mean?
I've been I've been here for multiple cycles, and I got my bags packed.
I'm ready to go.
I'm ready to see this thing at a million dollars.
I think it'll take a while.
I mean, I'll sit here and tell you that Silver's going to $1,000 in our lifetime, too.
But, you know, how long will that take?
Depends how many lifetimes you got, I guess.
Yeah.
I think we'll make it to $1,000 in my life, though.
Yeah.
Funny thing about silver, actually, like, years ago,
when there was that big silver boom, I think it was, like, 2000...
What year was that? Like, 2009,h. When, when silver hit, like, I think it was
like 34 bucks an ounce or something way back in the day. Right. Yeah. I started, I started buying
silver for all of my nieces and nephews and God, God kids, um, for all their birthdays and Christmas.
I'd give them an ounce of silver. and then every year i give him a new ounce
of silver along with like the uh i i sent along a little chart of the the price of silver through
you know the last like 10 years or something and then that shit dumped so hard for years
i went down to like 17 yeah i don't know't know about 17. Like Uncle Crypto's a loser.
I kept sending them.
It was really funny because I kept sending them the silver,
but I stopped sending the charts along with it.
Just turned an inverted chart.
Yeah.
Are you checking on them now?
Do they still have their silver?
The silver's doing well, right?
Yeah. It's probably going to blow to 100, right?
Yeah, I haven't.
It's actually been
a couple years since I bought
silver for them.
No, I'm sure
they still have it.
statements and when I
go into those extreme levels, it's because they're not going to stop doing what they're doing. The central bankers aren't going to stop printing. The bullshit's not going to stop happening.
They can't. They literally can't. say about this is a lot of people um and i completely whatever you think about trump so
bless you but um at some point he always wins and he's like come in and taking like the lead
kind of like elon did with with crypto when they pumped the whole um you know super bear
60 to 70 and everybody thought we were going to 100 before we went to 15.
All of that shit, Trump has put it on his chest.
And sooner or later, Trump's going to want to sign their charts and say, look what I did for crypto.
He's not going to want to walk away going, hey, look, everybody's blaming me for crypto dumping.
So that's what I'll say about crypto and what's going on right now is this cycle that everybody talks about.
It's the Trump cycle. And if you've never dealt with Trump as the president and financial markets, you don't understand really what's going on at all.
And I don't think that a lot of what's happened in the past with crypto, people need to be thinking about it because you got three years of this man who is leading the United States no matter what the fuck you believe, politics,
whatever, I don't care,
that has a tendency
of moving markets by what he
does, and at some point
he wants all of it to be
green. Am I right or wrong,
you guys?
That's a compelling case, man.
Yeah. And you're the guy that has AI
following around making water.
Why would I
believe anyone else? I don't know. That's
just to get your attention, man. I told you
the truth, though. I mean, that's my experience
with AI. I have a whole bunch of other stories, but
that doesn't matter. I know a lot about
crypto.
On that story, what I was thinking, I don't know if I got to chime in, but really like what you experienced a thousand years ago, what you would have thought it was a miracle, right?
You would have thought it was a God that blessed you.
Yes.
And so you had that same mystical feeling and we can try to intellectualize it but sometimes there's just beautiful coincidence right
yes for whatever reason it could be a multitude of reasons it could be in a simulation
i'll tell you you'd be the hero of your own simulation i'll tell you what bitcoin crashed
on my birthday on covid and went down to four thousand and nobody would have ever believed
that it went that low what What do you think about that?
I know.
March 20?
March 12th.
March 12th.
What did you buy that day?
I'm a Litecoiner, dude.
I bought a ton of Litecoin at $25.
I bought a ton of Ethereum and a whole bunch of alts that day and wrote
them for a while.
I know, man.
It's been a brutal.
Being a Litecoin is brutal,
but you know what?
Whatever.
We did this spaces for three years.
I was Litecoin underground.
I have a number of reasons why I changed,
mostly just because I was getting tired
of the crypto space.
But what has been nice to see is stepping
back from it.
There's a lot of younger people, more active people still growing, late coin communities
growing.
So that's nice to be able to step back and not feel like a big voice was lost or whatever.
But, um, yeah, man, I mean, that's the, that's what's, what this is what when i talk about like there's got
to be something underlying this these assets my whole thing is usage like you have to have people
that actually want to use the product so i was trying to drive home about the whole bitcoin
thing like if no one even really sees value in it as a tool then this is a really weird thing
we're doing throwing money around at it, you know?
So I think there has to be underlying value to things.
Agree. I mean, you make way too much sense when you talk about sailor.
I was listening to you and everything you say is so true about what's going on.
Well, yeah. When you start asking the questions and you go, well, what's...
Like, just if you...
If you're...
Maybe your investment question
every time is,
well, where does that get its value from?
Right?
Right.
Like, why is that valuable?
If you can't get an answer for that
without it...
You know,
if it's not pretty straightforward,
A, B, and C,
I don't know. Maybe I'm simple-minded. I just look at for that without, you know, if it's not pretty straightforward, A, B, and C. I don't know.
Maybe I'm simple-minded.
I just look at it and go, there's got to be economic activity going on.
Like, people need food.
They need transportation.
They need clean water.
They don't need debt instruments.
And I know it's a corporation thing,
but you have to think, why would they need something?
Why do they need Bitcoin?
Because they need stateless money to prevent all this printing and money printing.
That has nothing to do with all these leveraged instruments.
And if Bitcoin is valuable,
meaning the asset itself is valuable, meaning the asset itself is valuable, then those companies are less valuable than it.
So why would anybody buy those other things?
It's all temporary.
Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
Or am I just about drunkenness here?
No, you make sense to me, man.
I mean, I listen to you and you definitely make sense to me.
I've just mesmerized you with the voice tonight.
No, no, no, no, no.
I mean, I've had my experiences with Litecoin too.
And it has a use for me in the past.
It's speedy.
It's cheaper.
I can move shit real quick when Bitcoin bitcoin's clogged somebody needs to send me
some light coin it's a lot easier to get to whatever ever how i got it um it has value um
because i can use it um what i use bitcoin for um to make money to park money to send shit i'm so
yeah um and what about all these other 10 million alts?
I use them to make money and that's it.
And basically,
when I'm making money because they don't even understand for the most part,
any of it,
the rest of the market.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Just picking names and,
you know,
what they think.
You know,
people who played the memes,
right,
probably made more money than anybody,
you know?
And nobody,
I don't think people make a lot of money,
honestly,
even the things that have these massive spikes or whatever.
They're usually just the developers themselves, you know,
trading amongst themselves.
I agree.
And you really have to monitor the charts like almost full time to even
catch any of this shit until they pop off an alt season.
And then everybody can make money.
But most times they don't know when to quit.
Right.
Yep.
There's always got to be,
the next guy's got to buy it, right?
Yep.
Well, hey, I think I'm going to cut it off early
if you guys don't mind tonight.
I do these every Wednesday at 9,
but I missed last week.
Oh, it was Thanksgiving,
night before Thanksgiving,
but yeah,
should be here next week
if you guys want to join. Unless somebody
else has got anything else they want
to urgently bring up. Other than that, I think I'm going to
cut it off.
You guys good?
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for
us in the space. It was fun popping in.
Good conversation.
I thought you guys would follow.
Yeah, I'm doing the same.
No, I appreciate you guys coming in
because honestly, it's always
good to get some fresh blood in here.
It's been engagement since so low
for a while.
We talk about a lot, so sometimes it's crypto
and AI and sometimes it's, I don't know,
war and Israel
or something.
We're always putting something different on.
Yeah.
Sounds good.
Appreciate it. I don't get to
a lot of spaces
like this.
Yeah, don't worry about it.
But Wednesday is actually one of my
free nights, so maybe I'll pop back
in next Wednesday or whatever.
I got a lot of stuff
because I run my own project. Yeah, maybe back in next Wednesday or whatever. I got a lot of stuff because I run my own project.
Yeah, maybe see you next Wednesday.
All right, sounds good, guys.
Take it easy.
