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IS PRIVACY THE NEXT BLOCKCHAIN NARRATIVE? 🔍 The Aggregated Ep. 112
Recorded: May 9, 2025 Duration: 3:15:24Space Recording
Short Summary
The crypto community is witnessing a surge in privacy-focused projects and partnerships, with Mask launching its privacy suite on Polygon and Aztec introducing a new privacy token. This trend highlights the increasing demand for secure and private solutions in the blockchain ecosystem, as users seek to protect their data and enhance their online security.
Full Transcription
Thank you. you Polygon Pump It Up
Pump it, pump it, you gotta pump it, pump it, pump it, You gotta hunt it. Pump it. Pump it. You gotta hunt it.
ZK-EVM is a theory and z k e e m is a theory
um you gotta pump it pump it pump it you gotta pump it pump it
you gotta pump it pump it you gotta pump it. You gotta pump it. you
all it
you got out on the
all it
you got out on the
on the
on the
you got out on the
on the
you got out on the yeah You gotta pump it, pump it, pump it. You gotta pump it, yeah?
Good morning, everyone.
Hope everyone's doing well on this fine Friday morning, evening, afternoon, wherever you are in the world.
Only three sleeps to Monday.
I prefer not to look at it that way.
I'm ready for Friday.
Do we have Nicole here?
No, I think we might have Aztec.
I will figure out where he is unless he's being private today.
Okay.
Why don't we start introducing people while we get everyone up here on stage?
We'll just do like 30 seconds-ish to introduce yourselves on the panel. introducing people while we get everyone up here on stage.
We'll just do like 30 seconds-ish to introduce yourselves on the panel.
You can talk about your project, but we'll try not to go too long on that.
Let's start with Mask, DVPN and browser on base.
Hello everyone, OXLAM from Mask here. Thanks a lot for the invitation. Happy to be here alongside big players such as Quickswap, Polygon, Secret Network, Dash, everyone.
Mesh, VPN, and browser.
So we have a suite of privacy products, a browser, a mask core,
which lets you browse the web privately.
Mask collects no data.
We run on Polygon and on base.
So yeah, go to maskbrowser.com, discover what Mask is about,
and we welcome you with open hands.
You guys have been on Polygon for a while, I think.
Did we used to do some, like, syrup pools or some marketing with you guys or collaborations with Mixwell?
Yes, we are still on Polygon. on polygon uh actually we we did we're not we're on the verge of uh going to main that uh but our
token is still on polygon so we're we're on base polygon and ethereum but the layers that mask
operates on are polygon and base awesome great to hear yeah i remember seeing you guys around
for a while do you guys rebrand your logo or something yeah like three or four years ago well must have been like five years and a
half in the making so we've been in the space for for some time so yeah it's uh there is a bit of a
rebrand it's the same same logo different different colors that's what i remember i remember speaking
to the mass team once and I was like,
how many users have you got so far?
And they're like, we have no idea.
Yeah, that's the thing.
It's really hard to do.
It's really hard to speak about numbers when you don't have them.
So at Mask, we don't collect any data.
The only data we have is the data publicly available on the blockchain.
So if you need to know how many people are running MASK,
you would have to go to the blockchain,
see the addresses that are transacting MASK back and forth.
So in order to use MASK, we don't need your email,
we don't need your name, We don't need your name.
We don't need your credit card details.
You just need a wallet.
And to us, you're totally anonymous.
And we don't even log in who use it.
So it's privacy at the finest level.
So it's a browser that uses a VPN on the browser side instead of on the user side?
Well, it's more than that.
Let's say it's a privacy network where you can route all your internet through it.
You can run it inside the browser.
So you download Macca browser and the browser is built on the network.
So it runs inside the browser.
You can use it with your everyday browser if you install the Mask extension.
And if you want to be private all over your operating system,
you can download Mask Core and run it all over your machine.
So we have three products depending on what you need
exactly
That's good stuff I love the UI also
Hello everyone. Hi
So did that answer your question Rock?
Yeah, pretty interesting.
I remember looking into it a long time ago.
Yeah, it was just the browser.
We released the extension some months ago.
So with the extension, you don't need to download the browser.
The extension handles all the communication and all the encryption
and everything you need to have in order to browse
safely and privately. So it's the same, let's say it's the same communication, the same
technology. If you want it on all your machine, you download Mask if you wanted inside a specific um a specific window or
tab or in a specific environment you download mask browser and all your navigation through
mask browser is run through mask and if you want it within like um chrome or firefox
or any other major browser you just download
other major browser you just downloaded.
So we said 30 seconds or less.
We broke it already, guys.
We do this every time.
It's not your fault.
It's when we talk to interesting projects and individuals, panelists, we have a tendency
to dive in a little bit on them. But yeah,
really cool stuff. Great that you're building this for the world. Privacy matters, and that's
what we'll be discussing today. Aztec, how are you doing? Thanks a lot. Good, brother. Good.
I was up late working, and I'm excited to help host the show today another week and we get to be together on this show.
Were we? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You just you chimed in on the last like 30 minutes last episode because you were kicking butt in Dubai and doing all kinds of cool stuff.
and uh doing all kinds of cool stuff and uh i think this is like our first show like fully
together from the beginning for a while like yeah for a long time so like it's great to uh
it's great yeah that's why dmd this morning like i was hoping you would be on this episode
privacy i was like astec has to be here i'm sorry i'm the resident privacy tinkerer.
So, yeah.
I was in the AgFam
recently in that chat and
was telling it.
I said I'm the privacy
tinkerer and Dabble
Club said I'm more of a dabbler.
I might call you privacy
tinkerbell now.
Why don't you introduce yourself, Aztec, since you have been on the show less recently.
Yeah, tell everyone who you are.
Sure.
I don't usually like doing this, but Maztec, I'm the CSO at Lunar Digital Assets, founder of Testeract, accelerator on Polygon.
We help with ecosystem integration and I'm working on a bunch of other cool stuff.
Founder of the show as well and alongside rock and uh much love i'm excited
to be here and dive in see a bunch of my friends here a bunch of my privacy friends i've known for
a long time and i can't wait to dive into this uh topic so how are you doing today rock i'm doing
good man i'm still sick from uh dubai but I'm back here in beautiful Puerto Rico.
And unfortunately, now getting ready to fly.
Well, not unfortunately, but I'm going to LA in like less than a week.
And then my mom's getting surgery.
So I want to be there while she's getting surgery.
And then flying like maybe a week
later, going to stay with her for a week, then flying to Vegas for Bitcoin Vegas, and then going
to be presenting something cool at Litecoin Summit. That will be exciting. You know what that
is, but we can't tell the audience yet on that one. But yeah, feeling good.
It's Friday.
I love my Fridays.
This show's my favorite thing of the week.
I look forward to it all week.
I'll introduce myself really quick, for those who don't know.
I'm Rock Zacharias.
I'm the CEO of Lunar Digital Assets Venture Studio.
I worked on projects you guys know and love,
like QuickSwap and Polygon and others.
I am on the board.
I serve on the board for the Polygon Grants Program
and some other fun stuff, but leave it at that for now.
Leave it at that for now.
Did I say I'm co-founder of QuickSwap?
Did I say I'm co-founder of QuickSwap?
That too.
That too.
Yeah, you have like a super,
you have like one of the most accomplished lists
in crypto, bro.
So it's awesome to work with you.
And yeah, who have we introduced?
It's kind of funny
because we never introduce ourselves on the show.
We just don't. It's been one of our things that we've talked about where
we want to focus on everyone that comes and takes the time out of their day to
hang out with us and drop the alpha um but who have we introduced already
we were talking with mask yeah we introduced just mask but yeah i think
we introduced ourselves maybe one out of 15 times or something
but uh let's go to let's go to Red-Eyed Bear.
Good to see you, brother.
GMG.
Good to see you, man.
Yeah, good to see you guys as well.
Thanks for the invite.
I always love listening into these and getting to speak is also always cool.
For anyone who hasn't seen me around these spaces before on Twitter spaces,
before on twitter spaces uh i'm do dow operations for shade protocol which is a suite of private
defy applications uh built on secret networks so secret networks up here as well our flagship
product is silk a private by default stable coin that's pegged to a basket of assets, currencies and commodities.
Bro, we have to dive into Silk a little bit later. Yeah, I know you've messaged me a few times.
You were like, oh man, I just brought up Silk
on one of these things.
I would love for you to come and hop in here
and chat about it.
So I came here a little bit more prepared today to chat.
Nice.
It's very unique.
It's a very unique stable coin it i think it needs adoption i i
can't wait to see you know because like in the beginning you know we were talking about how it
was a reflexive uh private stable coin and um i can i can totally see it being used you know
cross-chain and everything but i i want to get your take in a little bit. So just kind of teasing it a bit.
Let's go ahead.
And I'm so, yeah, so, so happy that you're here and can't wait to dive into some of these topics with you.
Let's go ahead and introduce Oya.
You guys can hear me?
How are they?
All right.
Okay. So right, okay.
So, hi, I'm Yunus.
I'm covering Asad today, the CEO of Oya.
I'm the operations lead, and Oya is an AI-first Web3 game publisher.
What this means is, I mean, we publish games, obviously, but we use AI on every layer.
We don't just publish games, we actually acquire games,
and we accelerate them, and we publish them.
So essentially, it starts from the scouting games, right?
And it goes up to the publishing itself,
and it also goes to the fact that the game development
itself, we are supporting the teams with AI and so on.
So our thesis is very simple.
We look at games that could launch in three to six months,
acquire them, like pay their burn rate essentially,
and then publish them.
So that's essentially OFA.
And yeah, I mean, we just launched
Tuesday night, Dubai time.
We're also based in Dubai.
And yeah, I mean, excited
to be on the space. Honestly, though, like
next blockchain narrative
privacy, I mean, it's not that completely
fitting, but still excited to hear your insights.
Wait, so
this is interesting.
You just sparked all kinds of
thoughts in my head, entrepreneurial thoughts.
it almost sounds like you guys are taking
what could be a new business model, find scout companies, early stage companies. I mean,
like we're a venture studio, so that's what we do. We find ideas, early founders, and then we build
teams around the founders and we, you know, help them with their, you know, go to market and all and ecosystem, all this stuff, marketing, invest,
getting investment. But you guys are basically,
it sounds like you're finding early stage games or games that are maybe mid
stage. If you said they're like six months away and then you're basically
taking them, but, and then getting them to market either faster or better using AI?
Exactly. Exactly. That's the thing.
So we have acquired two games.
One of them is already announced.
If you go to our page, it's called What The Pack.
You can see it as Fall Guys meets Mario Party meets Squid Game.
And it's an honestly fun game.
It's like chaos.
It's clippable.
Like, it's perfect for streamers.
And, yeah, so this is like...
Wait, say the name of the game again.
I want to Google it.
What the pack.
It's like what the and then P-A-K?
Question mark, exclamation mark.
So the thing is this game, um, essentially like, as you just said, it's like either it's,
it's like very close to launch or it's already launched, but it's in early access.
Like it's in beta state, you might say.
And what we do is, uh, we, um, streamline it.
Essentially we have our in-house experts.
Like we are, our product director is XAnimoca.
He was the product owner of Forge of Empires.
So we also have game design, like XKing, you know?
So this is what we do.
Like, those guys go into the teams,
look at all things,
and make it so that they work faster and better.
And obviously, we use AI as well.
So yeah, that's the thing.
So we do all of that and the publishing part.
This feels like it could be a business model.
So there's a lot of people building new companies with AI as the foundation.
There's a funny kind of little joke going around Silicon Valley to see, you know, among the, I guess, kind of elites of Silicon Valley.
And a lot of the entrepreneurs are kind of the more venture side there of who could build the first billion dollar company using AI with only like one or two people.
The ultimate would be if you could build a billion dollar company with one
person using a bunch of AI agents. Right.
And so what you're doing is kind of like a hybrid of, you know,
building a native company with AI and instead going and finding businesses
and you're doing it with games,
but this could be spread to other verticals for sure,
where you could go find
companies that are either like slightly profitable, maybe they're not profitable. And then you find
ways to use AI to kind of revolutionize their business, cut their costs, increase their
efficiency, increase their profits, increase their sales funnel, stuff like that. That's an interesting model that I'm going to think more on.
Yeah, thank you, man.
I mean, by the way, I believe like, I mean, this is not a new thing, right?
But doing it with AI, like AI first, like even in our own team,
like even in the core OyaPlay team, of course,
like they are the game studio teams, right?
Like they have their own workflow. But even with us, OyaPlay team. Of course, they are the game studio teams, right? Like they have their own workflow.
But even with us, we think AI first.
If there's something, for example,
reaching out to streamers, we automate it.
So like we don't go ahead and then look,
okay, how can we do it?
But as in like which tools or do it manually?
No, we think, okay, how can we automate?
How can we streamline it?
So this is essentially like the thesis.
And I didn't even mention like the blockchain part so essentially it's
many games one token like as you might have already guessed it to be honest
that's all the model minus the nodes
with a sorry it sounds awesome it sounds awesome man um and congratulations on you know recently
launching as well um i i have a thing that i try to get everyone introduced uh within 20 minutes
or 30 minutes so uh i have to i want to move along to make sure we get everyone in and sometimes
people only have 30 minutes to talk so I don't want to miss anyone here.
So I try to respect everyone's time.
Let's go ahead and – great to have you here, of course,
and can't wait to have you talk a little bit more about what you're doing while you're playing.
Let's go ahead and introduce Dak.
Dak. doing oya play uh let's go ahead and introduce dak
is josh speaking and i can't hear i can't hear him i can't hear him either you know let me jump in with um a comment actually so So we were just talking about Oya, and I know you're trying to move things, Aztec, and I'm ruining it. But, you know, I just want everyone to know that was not like a sponsored interaction or anything like that. That is just a genuine, you know, this sounds interesting. This is cool.
any sponsorships on this show, but I do want to open the conversation. We've been thinking
internally about having sponsorships on the show and like fitting them in kind of like that there,
like these kinds of genuine conversations of projects we believe in. And we've, we've discussed
this for a long time and we've always decided not to do it. Many other shows, people get a bad experience from, like, I'm not going to name other shows,
but, you know, people charge a crazy amount of money, and people don't feel like they get a great value for it.
I mean, some of these shows charge $30,000 to come on a show, $50,000 to come on a show.
thousand to come on a show 50,000 to come on a show. Um, so I just want to open the dialogue
and see if anyone in the comments in the audience has any opinions on if we did sponsor the show,
let the show be sponsored so that we could do more with the show. Um, because we've actually
been spending money on this show for two years now. Um, I don't know how much we spend, but we
probably spend like 10,000 a month producing this show and we don't know how much we spend but we probably spend like 10 000 a month producing
this show and we don't make any money from it it's just a public good um so just curious if other if
anyone has opinions do you think it would ruin the show do you think it would be okay do you think if
it would be okay if it's done tastefully but if the audience has any opinions on this would love to hear it in the comments
yeah there's definitely a wider range of uh opinions even internally some people think you know it's end of show to zero so uh let us know in the comments if you guys think it would send
a show to zero tell us in in the comments if you think it's uh wouldn't be that bad or whatever your thoughts are let us know um let's dash uh is dash are you back with us can you introduce yourself yeah hey i'm back can you
hear me now yes perfect okay okay great all right so i'm nicole i'm the dash intern i also work for
lda and you guys know me i'm usually usually here, but today I'm here for DA.
So happy to be here. I think that privacy technology and privacy on the internet is
probably one of the most important things that we can talk about and that we can do.
Privacy technology is being tracked online as the most important, I don't know, modern day thing. I mean,
anybody who follows LDA, LDA's account knows like we've been putting out a lot of information about
things that you can do to become more private online. So I think that it's really important.
My opinions are not necessarily Dash's opinions.
That's really important for me to say because I'm here for Dash today. But yeah, so I'm here.
I'm happy to talk about privacy, to learn more about privacy as well. But yeah, thanks for having me.
Awesome to have you here. And it's funny, we've talked about privacy in so many different like conversations over the
years. I still love your idea, like a big marketing idea for a privacy company that focuses on,
I think you said like mothers or parents back in the day, so that, but like that would be the
demographic, but essentially you're trying to protect children's personal information online and kind of using that as like a campaign, essentially.
Yeah, for sure.
I know.
I feel like it's almost too late for like my own privacy online, right?
Like they have so much information on me, but when I think about... You right we're all totally but when i think about like my you danced naked in the
moonlight uh on twitter thank you for bringing that rock you're screwed but when i think you
didn't want to revisit that but when i think about my you know my 13 year old daughter i you know i My 13-year-old daughter, I think so much more.
I'm like, what apps is she using?
What can I do to protect her data from being collected and her digital footprint?
So I'm much more conscious about her. And I feel like making parents aware of the data that's being collected of their children is something that's like parents care about what's happening to their children's privacy.
Because I care what's happening to my children's privacy.
And I feel like that is the next frontier.
Definitely.
100%. Great to have you here, of course. And let's go ahead and introduce
Bobbin Threadbear from Myden. I definitely want to dive into Myden a bit and learn more.
Yeah. Hi, everyone. Excited to be here and thank you for the invitation.
So a few words about myself and about Maiden.
So up until fairly recently, I was one of the co-founders of Polygon.
And before that, I worked at Facebook's Novi project.
And before that, I was ZF.
Most of my work up until maybe a few years ago was
purely zk related so um writing like zk provers zk vms and things like that um and um you know
violet polygon um i started the maiden project and uh worked on it for a few years and we you know
you guys probably saw that we recently spun out um actually the announcement was just last week uh that uh my team has spun out into an independent
project um still kind of within polygon ecosystem but uh now we are uh kind of more as a standalone project as compared to what it was before and yeah so midan
is what we call like the edge blockchain which i think of as a kind of a different paradigm in how
you think about blockchain design and the core thing here is that we can design the protocol from the ground up thinking like ZK is the primitive that we can use at the very center of the protocol.
And the idea here is that instead of like having the network execute most transactions, as is done in almost all blockchains, on Miden users and applications can execute the transactions and prove them locally and then send
the proofs to the network and then the network mostly verifies the proofs. And the idea here
from, you know, there are multiple benefits to it, privacy being one of the primary ones,
because if you kind of execute your own transaction, if you store your own state,
and if the network doesn't need to know those details, you get privacy by default.
And I think one of the interesting things is that it's not only that you get privacy by default,
but also privacy is the cheaper option. Because in this model, if you need to be public,
you need to pay more for it, because you're asking the network to do more stuff for you.
So if you want the network to store your state like if you want the network to store your state,
if you want the network to execute your transactions,
you can still do it on Myden.
So you can be fully public on Myden,
but that actually will cost you more.
In my mind, this is like a very interesting
kind of incentive compatible way to approach privacy
because in many other situations,
like privacy usually costs more and that may create like an adverse selection.
But if privacy is actually something that costs less, it incentivizes people to be private and
people only need to pay for being public if they really, really need to do that.
Yeah. And then, so the other kind of natural benefit of this is kind of scalability,
because if you can run and prove your own transactions
and that we just verifies then you kind of don't really have computational limits every transaction
could in theory be like i don't know 10 hundred million gas and the network doesn't really care
there are of course other resource constraints but computation is no longer one of them so yeah
computation is no longer one of them.
So, yeah, as I mentioned, we recently spun out.
We have like an alpha testnet, hoping to go to a beta testnet soon.
And then, you know, if all things work out, we're going to mean that by the end of the year.
So you guys, who do you see using this more?
Is it going to be more retailer institutions
i think uh our uh initial kind of use case is uh more kind of institution related so i think
one of the use cases that especially is relevant right now is kind of asset management and like
you can think about like treasuries foundations vcs where you know having that information public
is frequently very very detrimental like you know anybody see you on some foundation or you know
for very legitimate reasons is selling things or if somebody's contracting like
i don't know partners or paying partners and things like that that information becomes
like that um that information becomes uh immediately uh public and creates a lot of uh
how should i say frictions uh in the market uh it is as if like you know you can imagine operating
like a public uh company or even a private company for that matter and every time you try to pay a
supplier or try to like uh you know uh convert like let's say treasury bonds that you hold into
more liquid assets or whatever like
it becomes immediately visible to everyone in the world and like you can't operate a business or
and any organization in that way so i think one of the first use cases is kind of like
allowing for this asset management to be done more in a way that's done in a kind of in a
traditional way where you businesses and institutions can
retain privacy i think in the long term it also becomes the retail like i think
i don't see a way for blockchains to work without privacy on the retail level as well
but i think that may be a bit further out okay so i was just told that that you don't have a lot of time, by the way, so we want to dive more into Mydin.
This is a huge news, the spin-out, and Mydin has been part of Polygon for a long time.
Polygon's put a lot of money into this. This is pretty incredible technology, so we want to dive more into this.
Let's do this, guys. I want to introduce quickly. We have Secret Network, Temujin, and Mihal.
Could we do a quick intro, guys, so we could go back to Bobbin with Maiden, and then later, guys, we'll dive more into you guys.
I apologize, but we just figured out that we're on some time concerns here.
But why don't we go Secret Network?
Hey, everyone.
Can you hear me okay?
Yep.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Excited to be here.
Always enjoy jumping on these spaces.
Always a good time.
And when I'm not speaking, I also love catching the recording.
So my name is Anubis.
Speaking from the secret network account I'm the CMO at secret network foundation secret network is a layer one
blockchain built on the cosmos SDK that enables confidential computing for decentralized AI
applications as well as privacy-preserving smart contracts,
which enable things like Shade Protocol,
which RedeyeBear had spoken on a little bit ago.
We also, thanks to the work done last year,
are integrated with over 30 EVM blockchains,
including Polygon.
So any integrated network like Polygon
can use privacy preserving smart contracts
on secret network cross chain.
I'll go ahead and pass it off here
to get through the speed round.
We got to dive into that also,
if you have time, Anubis, a little bit later in the show because that is interesting.
We do try to, I think, okay, I'll use myself as an example.
We do try to purple peel a bit on the show.
This show is for everyone, but we love Polygon.
We're big fans of Polygon.
I'm thankful for everything they do to help us with this show as well.
Big shout out to Quick Swap and, you know, the whole team, everyone.
But so I'd love to hear more about, you know,
the synergies between Polygon and Secret Network in a little bit.
But I know we're trying to introduce everyone here.
It was really great hanging out with you as well at that event in California
about the end of last year.
Yeah, that was awesome.
You're a really cool guy.
And yeah, this is the first time I got to meet you after knowing you for quite a while.
So good times, bro.
Glad you're here.
Let's go ahead and...
I think you're muted, so you just have to unmute.
Mujin.
Okay, let's go to Mihau.
Yeah, Timujin, you're muted if you're trying to talk but uh me how could you give
us 20 30 seconds and then we'll dive in more later yeah so i'm the ceo matterfy we make a universal
stealth address wallet system based on names so basically completely private um you just put in a
name or give a counterparty your name or post it on Instagram or whatever.
And now all wallets that use our tech can compute your receive addresses.
They're stealth addresses, meaning they're only known by the sender and receiver.
It's all automatic. It's all decentralized.
And yesterday, MetaMask approved our Snap development.
So very shortly, this will be available in MetaMask.
What? I didn't even hear this that's
amazing yeah congrats that's awesome so yeah all of metamask's 30 million users will be able to use
you know private send a name for the first time ever and then i actually you know really excited
to be on the space with these other privacy providers like secret and and mining because
there is a like uh i kind of figured out a shortcut in the last
week where if I use your stuff I get to like shortcut my development have this in production
in the month there's like one little part of our protocol that it it's I just want to make it more
private it doesn't whether we do it or not doesn't really break anything it just makes things even
more confidential but it's something i was
gonna have to write myself and then i realized like wait like basically secret and might already
do this so why don't we just use them and then i'm gonna have to write that part um so yeah
um really cool to be on the space we love the synergies so yeah we we definitely have to
we love the synergies so yeah we we definitely have to bridge the the gap in a second here and
try to see if we can get that arranged that would be awesome happens a lot on this show people
realize hey uh i can we have synergies let's let's do something together so um yeah and me So yeah, and anyhow, you're a beast. Massive congratulations on the MetaMask.
Is that like a partnership, essentially?
Is it official?
Well, they just approved the snap, right?
So it's not like at some point.
So we're going to make the snap,
and then we're going to try to get a partnership with marketing,
I think is the plan there.
But first, we've got to finish the software.
You know, I'm pretty sure I can market my own software really well anyway.
Right. So, yeah, that was just the first step was just getting them like them to be cool with, you know, this thing existing in MetaMask.
And that's what we got done. You know, how hard they will push it versus we push it.
Like that's, you know, obviously for later. But yeah, that's what we got done. You know, how hard they will push it versus we push it.
Like, that's, you know, obviously for later.
But, yeah, that's where we're at.
Huge, huge congratulations.
Tim Mujim, can we try to... Yeah, I'm sure it works.
Sorry, guys.
Just when you had said my name, it cut out,
so I missed everything. I heard everything except my name. So, yeah, I'm sure it works. Sorry, guys. Just when you had said my name, it cut out. So I missed I heard everything except my name. So yeah, I'm here. Do a quick intro. I'm the CEO of Wanchain. Wanchain, some of you might know, we're a pretty old project in Web3. We're focused entirely on blockchain interoperability. We have a bunch of different kind of verticals to the project on the retail side.
We have a few projects, the token bridge called the WAN bridge.
We have a cross chain swap called Xflows.
Also, we have crushing messaging called export.
All of these support a lot of chains, 40 plus chains, EVMs, non-EVMs.
But for this call, it supports Polygon, supports Polygon ZK EVM as well.
And, you know, yeah, Wanchain and Polygon,
we kind of go back a long way, officially partnered back in 2021. But we had worked,
you know, with a lot of the Polygon engineers, particularly in the realm of the Enterprise
Ethereum Alliance. If any of you want to call, remember that work group. So always been focused
on interoperability, go back with Polygon. Very
happy to be here. Thank you. I don't hear much about the EEA, the Ethereum Enterprise Alliance
these days. Are they still active? They had some big pleasure. Yeah, still active. Working a lot
with them still. Wenzhen's still the interoperability chair.
There's been some internal restructuring
at the kind of the top management level,
but still very much active and working also closely
with other kind of industry organizations
like Linux Foundation, Decentralized Trust.
You know, that's the new Hyperledger.
That's probably an old name you've all heard of,
but yeah, it's called the LFDT now.
And yeah, Wenshin actually will also have a new official project coming out soon via the LFDT.
So both those organizations are still very much active.
Awesome.
Yeah, we get updates semi-regularly from one of our team members, James, or Dub Digital.
I know he works with you guys on some stuff so
always cool to hear what you guys are working on you guys have been doing it for a long time
i'm surprised that um you know vitalik and so there was some chatter a lot of actually a lot
of discussion and controversy around how ethereum foundation runs things and what kind of changes
could be made and
talking about changing people at the foundation.
And one of the big conversations was that it was like this kind of shift that
Talek was talking about towards like working with builders more because
Ethereum is super decentralized, right?
Most projects in the industry are a lot more centralized
than Ethereum. They run a little more like companies, like kind of decentralized companies,
but many of them run more like just a tech company. And so Vitalik and different people
were discussing how could Ethereum still, like while staying decentralized cater to the
different uh builders and projects and maybe even like you know more giving them funding and things
like that it seems like ethereum enterprise alliance would be kind of a perfect the perfect
group to spearhead that that's kind of what they were originally um but i'm not sure if you have
any opinion on that yeah you know there's a lot of history that goes with the Ethereum Foundation and the
Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, you know, especially around decentralization. I definitely totally
agree with everything you said. Me personally, obviously, I have strong beliefs in the power
of decentralization. With the EEA, you know, because it's enterprise focused, a lot of enterprises
don't share that belief about decentralization.
They want to maintain some element of control.
And so Ethereum Alliance kind of bridges that gap in a way.
How to get decentralized tech into enterprise applications, what kind of tradeoffs are acceptable, which ones are not.
There's the decentralization element.
There's also privacy element there.
Enterprises obviously have very different privacy expectations than retail.
So, yeah, I don't know if the Interferium Foundation is going to ever just hand the
purse strings over to the EEA and say distribute, but definitely I think there's an important
role to play as we kind of push towards mainstream adoption.
All right. All right. Now we've gotten everyone introduced. Let's go back to Maiden.
Yeah, Bob. And so my I guess. So can you tell me a little bit about, with Myden, this, like, how does the, I guess part of the concept is moving the, like, computation?
I don't know if it's proof generation or what, but, so this is a layer two of Ethereum, and it uses roll-ups.
But I think part of the idea is instead of doing like execution and state, even state, I think, on like an L1 or even kind of an L2, you're pushing that to the users.
So like they can render stuff or do stuff themselves and just put a proof on the blockchain.
themselves and just put a proof on the blockchain am i am i getting that at all right yeah yeah no
Am I getting that at all right?
this is also also uh if you could kind of break down what you mean by uh edge chain in in a lot
of your marketing i see the edge chain so maybe this goes along with what rock's asking yeah yeah
definitely so i think um the way uh the name by the way, Edge just means that,
you know, a lot, most of the activity happens on Edge devices
and these devices could be wallets,
but it could be also, you know, application specific,
I don't know, servers or whatever.
And another thing way to think about it is like,
it's client side execution or client side proving.
I think Edge is just a
a bit more catchy term so we're using it uh um kind of like in the in marketing materials uh
but the idea is exactly as you guys described basically um like to give a little bit of like
context most blockchains the way they operate is that the user would send the transaction to
that uh to the network and then uh you know in the network they operate is that the user would send the transaction to the network. And then in the network, a block producer would execute this transaction and then include it in
the block. And there are a variety of ways to do it, right? So like on Ethereum, you do it
like one transaction after another, like you need to execute transactions sequentially.
There are other chains where you can execute transactions in parallel, at least some of them
in parallel. But still the network does the execution.
And this is required because to understand how the state of the chain evolves,
somebody needs to execute, all the entities need to execute, and then validators need
to re-execute the transactions to know that all the state transitions are valid and nobody
is trying to print infinite money or whatnot, And adheres to like all the rules of the contracts and things like that.
And, you know, up until maybe like recently, and even right now,
I would say we're still on the cusp of it.
Like this was the only way to do a blockchain because, you know,
you wouldn't be able to understand what the state of the chain should be
without re-executing transactions.
But having efficient zero-knowledge proofs allows you to kind of break this paradigm and say,
I don't want to know.
Having what?
Having ZK proofs, zero-knowledge proofs, allows you to kind of do things completely differently
and have users execute the transactions. And then the users kind of like say,
okay, I've executed the smart contract correctly.
And here's the result.
And the chain needs to just update their state
and verify the proof.
They don't need to re-execute the transactions.
So the block producer doesn't need to execute transactions
in most cases.
And then obviously downstream,
you know, in a decentralized setting,
validators don't need to execute the transactions either.
So this is great for scalability purposes because you just verify the proofs.
You don't, you know, it doesn't really matter.
And one thing I should say, like in zero-knowledge context,
jating a proof is expensive, but verifying it is exponentially faster.
So I could run like a data center worth of computation,
and I can, you know, if I can prove it,
the network would be able to verify it almost as quickly as verifying a simple transfer so like that's why i mentioned
like you can lift all the computational restrictions or limits uh on uh the complexity of uh contracts
or what you can do with them uh but yeah so the uh this is the core idea is that like you know
my wallet or an application can execute the transaction. As I mentioned, this was not something that was possible to do like five years ago for sure.
Even a year ago, I would say, like we've been working on it for a couple of years now,
it's still kind of like on the cusp of what is possible because proofs are expensive to generate.
I think we're at a point where I think it is the right time to be able to do things like that.
Another thing I would say is that to implement a model like this,
you actually need to rethink the state model design completely.
Because, for example, if you take an EVM-based kind of state model,
ERC-20 tokens, you would not be able to do transfers in ERC-20 tokens
by proving local transactions because everybody needs to update the same contract. And, um, um, you know,
if I try to move ERC20 tokens and somebody else tries to do this,
is he still talking? I lost him. I think we lost him.
Bob in right in the meat of it. Is he still talking? I lost him. I think we lost him. Bobbin.
Right in the meat of it.
I had one more question too before we,
because like I have deep dived a lot of the privacy technologies that are here
and I have an understanding of their focus, you know,
you know, like for instance, like Seeker Network, who also got rugged, I saw in the messages.
So they're trying to get back. But, you know, they have this focus on they've always had DeFi, but like more recently I've seen this focus on AI.
And, you know, like I'd love to ask them, you know, what, what, uh, what will their focus be, you know, about the gate?
What do they want to do?
Is it like, you know, for assets or what?
But I'll, we'll just wait till they come back, I guess.
Maybe.
It looks like he's back in.
I see Bob and his listener.
Do you guys see him?
Yeah.
And sent him a speaker request.
Okay.
While we do that, I just want to say this kind of stuff pumps me up so much about ZK rollups.
I've believed for so long that ZK rollups were going to be a big part of the industry,
a big part of both scaling and privacy.
And I didn't know how high the amplitude would be like how, how much
of the industry this would be, but I've always kind of suspected it might be a major or like
everything will touch this. And the more I hear all these different solutions that use ZK rollups
in different ways, whether that's, you know, what Maiden is explaining here with like edge zks i guess and um or what um you know some people
are doing with like zk evms or there are just zks where you remove the evm or there are ways you
could do zk with like evm emulators or you could do like uh enshrined z EVMs, and all kinds of... What's that?
ZK bridging solutions.
ZK bridging and aggregating and interoperability and privacy. There are just so many things that we could do with ZK roll-ups.
They're still early, but there are definitely some teams finding ways
to put these into production now.
And I think over the
next like five years these things are just going to superpower everything it's superpower privacy
superpower scaling every interoperability everything it's it's crazy that one technology
could do so much 100 i think bobbin's back and guys i just want you to know uh everyone listening
the goal here is we just want
to double click on what Myden's doing you know they recently had you know big spin out from
Polygon and they're doing some big stuff and it's kind of been selfishly one of the things that I've
wanted to learn more about myself but right after this small conversation we're going to dive into
kind of like the kind of free-flowing dynamic part of the show that we usually get into where we just ask general questions and everyone jumps in.
So a goal of mine is to really paint a picture in everyone's mind where privacy is today.
I want to start with that after the questions for Myden and then kind of get into some more meaty questions, you know,
shortly after that. But Bob, are you back? Yes, yes, I'm back. I'm not sure what happened. Sorry
about that. No, no worries. We kind of lost you in the meat of that conversation. You were kind
of explaining, you know, some of the technical aspects of you guys uh build it and how it's used but um i'm not sure if you want to round off on that i also have another question for you
before we kind of dive into the general questions for everyone um maybe maybe you want to yeah so
round off what you were saying i think one way to kind of visualize myden is thinking about like
myden is a network where every account technically is an L2 or could be an L2.
So like you can imagine there's more to it.
There is like a lot to double click on, but you can think about every, potentially every account being an L2 where an account can manage its own state, you know, and execute their own state transitions.
But, you know, your wallet could be an L2,
but also can be an application L2.
And Miden provides kind of like,
Miden network verifies kind of state transitions
of all the accounts,
and also allows them to connect
through this asynchronous protocol.
And also like the managers kind of like
the shared public state of the network.
So this is kind of like the idea
where you can mix the
paradigms of, you know, Maiden does actually a lot of mixing, I should write kind of like
the source of inspiration for Maiden where it came from, but it mixes like Ethereum and Bitcoin,
it mixes like the concepts of accounts and L2s and public and shared state and private state and all
that stuff. So there's a lot to double click, but like, yeah, as I mentioned,
you can think about my and where you execute transactions,
you approve them, you send it to the network, network verifies them.
And because of this, you get this kind of massive scalability
and you also get privacy by default.
That's really cool.
Have you ever I might be like totally off on this
and this might be a stupid question, but have you ever i might be like totally off on this and this might be a stupid question but
uh have you ever watched a comedy show called uh silicon valley yes yes definitely one of my
favorites is that okay perfect so they they were like theorizing about edge type technology is this
similar to basically what you guys are building when you guys say edge
like um i mean uh i think the the ambition in the show was a bit a bit more than that like i think
they were trying to build new internet uh what we're trying to do obviously is not to replace
internet but uh to build like this the way i mean i think of the blockchains in general is something
that allows people to transfer value between each other, right?
So like the main purpose of Bitcoin was created was to allow transfer of value between people without intermediaries, right?
And so we're just trying to realize that in my mind, some, the original vision, like, and in my mind, most of the blockchain projects do that, blockchain projects do that, just adding more and more things to it.
Right. So like the ability to do computation, the ability to do it privately and all of that stuff.
But in the end, this is not like as ambitious as trying to replace Internet.
This is more about like how do we enable people to transfer value between themselves?
Without. Yeah.
Say again.
Oh, I said that makes sense. i have one more question for you i i don't know if rock will have another question but um if you if you just walk us through what you're
going to be prioritizing for so i when you dropped off i was saying i've i've actually deep dived
because i love privacy i love privacy projects i read through a lot of white papers. I have not read through, you know, documentation for Miden. So selfishly, I'm wondering, because I know what a
lot of these other teams are working on or what they're prioritizing. What are you guys going to
start prioritizing out the gate? Like, what's the main thing you want to focus on?
Well, I mean, the priority out of the gate is to enable people to use the network and gain
privacy. I think like some of the things that we are deprioritizing, maybe that's easier to
describe, like we're launching as a centralized L2. So like, for example, decentralization is
something that we want to add after we go to mainnet because you know i can go into the number of reasons why
i think this makes sense uh but uh we're not going to be decentralized on day one it's going to
probably take two or three years to get decentralized another thing i want to mention is that we're not
enabling absolute privacy from day one either we're enabling something that we call the web
two level of privacy where people are private against each other but not against the centralized
operator and then again we'll gradually enable higher and higher level of level of privacy where people are private against each other but not against the centralized operator and then again will gradually enable higher and higher level of levels of
privacy and it makes um you know uh there is one of the reasons for this is like to be honest uh
like safety and security to make sure there are no soundness bugs in the um in the underlying
proving system because you know if you enable full privacy from the start, like a soundness bug in a proving system
could be completely catastrophic.
And so we're kind of taking this,
I would say cautious and pragmatic approach
to enabling some of those things over time,
rather than trying to like go out
and have everything available.
But what we wanna prioritize is user experience
and then things like, you know,
higher levels of privacy,
decentralization will come shortly after mainnet.
Okay, I have another question. So, you were talking about doing things at the wallet level.
Just now, two days ago, we had the Ethereum Pectra upgrade.
the Ethereum Pectra upgrade.
And I'm curious that that was, I think, EIP...
Well, the part that matters for what we're talking about here
is the, I think it's EIP 7702 or something like that,
which is like enabling more with account abstraction
and like making it so that wallets have more kind of
almost internal
smart contract functionality or something does this matter to you guys does this change what
you're doing does this make what you're doing even cooler it it doesn't change what we're doing
because uh mydon is like uh because of the design constraints or like the things that we need to do
to make this edge execution and edge crewing work like we're very different from like ethereum's design so uh you know kind of like
the things that change on uh on evm specific chains don't affect us that much uh having said that i
think the concept of uh of what you described for example is very similar to how accounts work on
midan like every account on Myden is a smart contract.
This was like a design decision that we made early on
that basically every account has code,
every account has storage.
And I think this is needed to enable this,
like what I think now is called smart wallets, right?
Where you could put a lot of additional logic
into the wallet that makes the experience safer,
both in terms of, let's say, social recovery,
where maybe if you lose your keys, there is a way to recover them.
But I also think, and this hasn't been done a ton yet,
but I think it should become a standard,
like some kind of rate limiting as well, as an example,
where you are not able to send out all the funds out of the account immediately.
Maybe you can configure your wallets to only allow sending out 10% or 5% of funds in any given day.
And that protects you against other...
And then if somebody compromises your wallet, you can recover it and you will not lose most of the funds in the wallet.
And then there's a lot of other cool features that you can build if you have
this programmability aspect.
So I totally agree that this is like the way to go.
But I would say Midan in a design headed, like we already have that in there.
And we're excited that Ethereum is going in that direction too.
Interesting.
So that's a whole nother, so gosh i have a couple more questions okay
one is you guys are not focusing on the evm which is an interesting design decision
that like two years ago three years ago i remember our co-founder at quick swap telling me uh and um
and some others on the team, uh, multiple times
that he thought that Ethereum made a mistake, uh, when they went ETH 2.0 and they decided to
retain the old state and the old chain and the old assets, all that, and retain the EVM.
Uh, he thought that they should have just ripped the bandaid off because EVM had some problems and like it was just an old technology.
And he said that the direction in the future will be getting rid of the EVM or there will be a lot of solutions at least that will not use EVM.
That maybe there will be a lot of solutions that will still use it for various reasons, but there will be a lot that won't use it.
there will be a lot of solutions that will still use it for various reasons, but there will be a
lot that won't use it. Now we see Vitalik talking about RISC-V, a migration to RISC-V over the
coming years, which I think would shed the EVM in a way, but still provide optionality to do EVM.
And so I'm curious what you think about all this. When he said that, when he said EVM wasn't the way forward, I thought, oh, you're crazy. I mean, EVM just has so much adoption that the network effect, it's just like kind of enshrined like all the developers there, you know, we've seen multiple chains that
are able to do things without staying in EVM and solidity. So I'm curious what you think on the
state of EVM overall, clearly you guys made a decision not to use EVM, but still to use smart
contracts. There's also ways to build ZK rollup, like L2s and app chains that don't even use smart contracts. But you guys are going, yes, smart contract, no EVM, edge execution, a client-side execution.
It's really interesting.
Yeah, just curious on all your thoughts on how this is all going.
And then it looks like Oya put their hand up.
Oh, maybe they're trying to get back on stage.
But okay, yeah, go ahead, Bobbin.
Yeah, so I think, I mean, first of all, take my opinion with a grain of salt
because I have obviously a bias here.
But I do think that, well, for one,
to say that, you know, a couple of years ago,
like, I don't think Ethereum could have switched
or should have switched from EVM.
It would have been very difficult
given a lot of other things.
I think it is like a fairly massive undertaking
and you probably don't want to do the switching too frequently.
So like, I think now we're getting to the point,
like I'm not sure RISC-V is the right architecture myself
for Ethereum, like, you know, at a low level,
but it is like coming up with something
that is more GK provable, I think is very important.
And so I think now is probably the right time to start this discussion switching to something non-evm two years ago
probably would have been very uh tricky and uh i'm not sure if it would have resulted in uh
uh in a positive outcome so to say um having said that i do think that evm i mean uh there are a
couple of aspects so evm by itself itself is inherently limiting in some ways.
Like, as I mentioned, I don't know if it is possible to do like edge execution on EVM
just because of the way the execution model works, like how the smart contracts work.
You need to make sure that the communications are asynchronous.
You need to make sure that you're able to have like many native assets,
not just a single native asset.
And like the way you kind of like even describe tokens, for example, as I mentioned, like
ERC 20 approach would not work for edge execution.
And so you do have to change it.
I would say like a lot of them, and you will see this on a kind of for privacy and also
not for privacy as well.
Like you have Aztec, for example, who that are using something very different from EVM
also because they need to enable privacy.
I think you see fuel as another example that is not privacy focused, but that is trying
to do like parallel transaction execution.
And so they need to, they can't use EVM under the hood.
So like, I think if you're trying to like unlock other things that are not possible, obviously EVM, so you can't use EVM under the hood. So I think if you're trying to unlock other things that are not possible, obviously, EVM,
so you can't use EVM.
And I do think the set of features that are beyond EVM
is pretty compelling enough, including privacy
and parallel transaction execution.
I think you can do some of that with EVM as well.
It just becomes much, much more difficult in some ways.
And in some ways, it may be even impossible to do some of those things.
So I do for sure agree that a lot of execution or a lot of the ways we will kind of see blockchains as well will not be around EVM.
But having said that, I don't think EVM will go away.
I think it will, or at least in the immediate or medium term, maybe even long term future, I don't think evm will go away i think it it will um or at least in the immediate or medium
term and maybe even long-term future i don't know but as you said evm has an incredible um kind of
network effects right now and it will stay there for a while but i do think that the set of features
like that it enables is inherently like limited and like to go address uh use cases that we can
do on evm we need to go
beyond that i think the other way i would want to say to to this like and this is more specific to
is that um i don't know like if i like for me there is enough of evm chains out there so like
uh i like uh i think uh for my like it wouldn't make sense necessarily to try to build like a EVM specific chain.
I think we would try to make sure we're compatible
in some ways in the future that you can still do.
I mean, ideally there you would be able to bring over
some EVM smart contracts, but it is a tricky thing
to figure out and something we'll think about long-term.
But I do think there is probably enough
of EVM block space out there and
so i am personally more excited about building something that doesn't have the evm like tries
to explore space that goes beyond evm that makes sense yeah that's very exciting i'd i'd love to um
i'd love to start steering the conversation more towards, you know, kind of where privacy is today.
So we have a lot of listeners here and not everyone's a privacy expert.
So we've talked a lot about the technical side of privacy and, you know, some of the amazing things that all the solutions, the people here, the platforms are working on.
But maybe if we could take a step back and try to kind of describe in everyday language
where privacy is today, what you can do with it in a Web3 sense.
what you can do with it in a web three sense uh or and you can you know talk about kind of like
what your guys's projects are doing um but if we could just explain it very easily and simply
and just kind of catch up as a starting question if you guys are new to the aggregated
i like to kind of describe our show like it's just a bunch of
friends sitting around a table and you know we're just having a conversation so we like this free
flowing conversation you don't have to raise your hand anyone can just jump and piggyback off each
other um so i'm asking wait i have one sorry i do have one last question for Bobbin, just a quick one.
How does Myden, given that it – this is a really good question, Aztec, because I know Bobbin will probably be leaving soon maybe,
but how does this benefit Polygon?
So Myden was built in-house at Polygon.
You guys – so Polygon acquired Myden, right?
I think that was the name of the company when they acquired them.
Uh, was it another one?
I think it was my didn't still at that time.
Um, and now is spinning off my didn't.
So how does that benefit polygon?
How does that benefit polygon holders?
Will it play into ag layer and et cetera?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So, uh, um, to, to clarify, like when I joined polygon, there was no my, then I joined like individually and, um to to clarify like when i joined polygon there was no maiden i joined
like individually and um kind of like build a team violet polygon so uh there was no acquisition per
se there was michael recruiting me to come to work for polygon uh that was uh kind of the inception
and to be honest like even i thought there was i thought was a team, maybe it was not Miden, but then it became Miden.
I thought there was a team acquired for like 75 million.
There were teams, other teams that Polygon acquired, but no, Miden was just myself.
I joined as a individual person.
Actually, like the first six months, I didn't really work on Miden per se.
Like I had a zero knowledge virtual machine
uh and then like midan was uh i think there's like a post that i made almost exactly three years ago
uh where i described the like initial concept of midan and then uh we kind of started building a
team around it and working working on it at that time um but yeah no like, I mean, Midan was built, like, within Polygon, but there was no acquisition component to it. But I think to go back to the question of like, how does that benefit Polygon? I think there's a number of ways. One is, we will be part of the, like, AgLayer. So we're very excited to work with the AgLayer team. And obviously, coming from Polygon, I know everyone there.
And plugging into the AgLayer,
we will be probably one of the first non-EVM native chains
that they can plug into the AgLayer.
And that would be exciting to explore.
And I think we would be able to provide
some of the functionalities that I mentioned to Aglayer.
Like if people need privacy on something else, they would be able to breach to Miden or go through Aglayer to Miden,
and it will be a much better experience.
And so I think it will complement the offering of the Aglayer quite a bit.
I think on the more financial side, there will be kind of once once we go to main that there will be a Miden token.
And so we will do like an airdrop to Polygon holders and stakers.
I think, you know, that's what I want to do.
Assuming. Yes, yes.
If Miden is to become what we hope it will become, I think it will be very, very nice financial payoff. So I think from the Polygon stakers and holder side, I think everything will be compensated pretty well.
Cool.
That's exciting.
Got some alpha.
Got to get our Polygon community some alpha there.
Yeah, definitely.
Give us those airdrops.
We're looking forward to it.
Make it very valuable and make us some money, Bobbin.
Yes.
That's the hope.
Everybody will make Miden as successful as possible
and then everybody makes a lot of money.
There we go. That's what we want to hear
definitely um thank you for your time and explanation you know what you guys are working
on what you guys are solving and um definitely want to you know uh kind of dive in with everyone else here as well so we can kind of have everyone chime
in uh same question i did i did want to say that i i unfortunately need to drop off but uh another
co-founder from myden is um is uh i think is on the call uh so if there's anything from the myden
side that still needs to be covered as you may be able to transfer those we should be we'll be able
to transfer those that would be awesome we did
have a great rest of the weekend thank you guys talk to you later
have a good one have a good weekend thank you all right good talking with you
so so um i think uh darren you sent uh am i rugging no you're good you're good okay
okay sometimes i i started getting this little ring uh on and the app you know like the little
i'm probably rugged but you never know you never know when elon's gonna rug you good times guys
let's dive into privacy let's uh i want to jump into the the question that i was talking about
again nobody has to raise their hand just jump in uh you know what can you do with privacy today
um from your perspective you know from web3 perspective, what can you do?
And if we could kind of talk about this and maybe not as technical, maybe make it easy for just anyone, even the privacy tinkerer like myself or someone that really has no understanding maybe they're a solana bro that's only had access to
meme coins in the casino and and they don't understand you know the technical stuff so
yeah who wants to jump in and maybe start talking about that yeah i'm just gonna jump in uh right
so this is joseph um founder of certainly cloud behind the projects handle um
what i would say it's uh obviously we had privacy uh always in our life in general like cash
paying cash something private uh what blockchain offers it's a limited privacy until the address becomes well known or pertaining
to somebody, then the privacy turns off.
So today there are a few layers and a few projects amongst which is only cloud, it's
one of them, a secret network here earlier the speaker earlier was they're developing something
similar same type of technologies so the space is moving from an open let's say at the transaction too transparent environment to a more like area where people can still maintain a bit of secrecy
and privacy on their I'd say business or yeah because it is normal is how the world works
and technologies such as these homomorphic encryption and other
multi-party computation are used and will be used in different situation in
different use cases and yeah this has been explored I can speak about it
certainly cloud that we tested successfully on EVM and making computation private, but as well as AI kind of tasks and the task themselves, like the computation itself, let's say without really good understanding of how blockchain and trust execution works,
to develop applications, maybe trading bots or whatever it's necessary to explore the space,
written in Python for instance, that can help you maintain your, let's say your trading algorithm private you don't want to expose that
Yet you want to have it running somewhere in
In the space not necessarily on your laptop or so like you're really dependent
And once you start sharing it or putting it out there
Anyone that owns the systems, the platforms
used, they have access to it.
So this is one small example.
But essentially, you know, at the highest levels, this type of activity is going to
be more and more used.
And you want to maintain the secrecy of algorithms, secrecy of the way you're making
trading decisions, which right now are pretty much very open and out there.
So it's kind of, I think it's a disadvantage to have it open And it's essentially at the end of the day, the ones that have more liquidity win
because everything is too open.
That's my take on it.
So hopefully it makes sense.
Yeah, very interesting.
And just to prompt everyone again,
and great to have you here, Vilsof, again.
You've been on the show before
and I love all your thoughts and everything.
But just to prompt everyone, again, you know,
like, you don't have to raise your hand, just jump in.
Mainly trying to figure out with you guys all here,
because you guys are all the privacy gurus,
you know, in everyday terms,
like, what are some other things that people can do
today what what is available for web3 privacy today for uh the average person and and what are
the things that you can do with privacy already so i mean i can jump in because I got, I got to jump off on a VC call in like 13 minutes.
But I mean, today, well, the first thing is to, you know, use Web3 or crypto privately.
You have to basically be an expert in it.
Like there's really no other way to do it.
So, you know, like basics, like not exposing your addresses, meaning that like, you know, say you, you know, keep track of, of all your
addresses and you create a new address for every person that's your counterparty. Like that would
be like really basic, right? Because a lot of the sort of private exposure is just wallet monitoring.
So there's a whole industry on wallet monitoring and chain analysis. And then the other, you know,
way to make say your wallet perfectly perfect would be to, you know, every time you receive funds, you go mix them. And then, you know, you,
you, you pull them back out into a fresh address. Right.
So it's like, so no one can, can, even when you send money to somebody,
no one can really, you know, see where the source of funds is. Right.
Because say you mixed it with Monero, you know,
it went between the time you send it and the time you, you,
time you received it and time you sent it again the time you received it and the time you sent it again.
Right?
So, and then there is, like, I like to talk about, there is a, now this is slowly being sort of solved in the space,
but privacy is a really big term.
So, I'll just kind of break down, like, all the different ways you can have privacy and the various projects that are doing that. So, you know, one is address privacy,
which as far as I know,
only we are really doing in any way that makes sense.
Meaning that, you know,
the thing I just described is automatic
and it's based on names
and we call it public names, private transactions.
And then, you know,
the technical term for that type of addressing
where only you and the counterparty
know that that's your address. It's called self-addressing. And then there is, you know, the technical term for that type of addressing where only you and the counterparty know that that's your address. It's called self-addressing. And then there is, you know,
other really cool things happening. For example, at midnight, you can shield transactions. So
midnight's one of our customers or, yeah. And, you know, we're adding our send to name tech to
midnight, but also in midnight, like, for example you you can't inspect the chain and
just see like where all the money's coming from right so it's it's in that sense it's a mixer
in that you you can't see you know the source of funds if you're a third in the transaction, right? So there is that level of shielding. And the most
basic version of this was called coin join, right? Which is like essentially a mixer, right? So the
other mixers we have right now are like tornado cash. So all these things are essentially DeFi
that mixes. But what coin join did was in, you know, you would have a pool of funds in every block and say, you know, 20 people would,
you know, deposit to those funds and Alice would send to Bob, say five Bitcoin and Bob would still
get five Bitcoin, but it would be mixed in an intermediary step. But the way the crypto worked
is when Alice sent to Bob, it was definitely going there, right? So you have this, and the
whole point of the mixing tech is just to hide the source of addresses, the source of funds to the person
that you're sending money to, from the person that you're sending money to. And then the other
part of it is to hide it from third parties. So there are now, and there's an increasing focus on,
you know, chains that do that. The one I'm familiar with is Midnight Beach
because I'm working with them.
But there are others that are doing the same.
Which chain did you say?
Midnight.
Midnight, okay.
Yeah, yeah, Midnight.
So that's Cardano's new spinoff, right?
So then there's like a Cardano partner chain.
Yeah, there's Monero as well,
which is obviously there's there's monero as well um which is you know obviously uh there's pirate
chain right so these are all chains that they essentially take the mixing thing to a whole
nother level because they're using zk proofs for the funds right so um at that point um it's even
stronger than say a coin join because in a coin join you can still kind of like you could guess
okay if there's 20 people in the pool or well, one of the, the funds came from one of the 20,
right? So, but in a ZK version of this, there's no way to tell like where the funds came from. So
we have these increasing privacy projects coming along that you can use today. Now that said,
there's a lot of limitations with them. Like a lot of exchanges won't deal with,
you know, privacy focused chains yet. I think that's about to change. It's like really interesting
to see that, you know, Ethereum and, you know, Vitalik seem to be more focused on it from his
blog post. And so that deals with address, you know, hiding of source of funds, right? So that's
mixing. So that's one form of privacy.
The third form of privacy is essentially what most of the projects on here are dealing with,
which is like secret, Ethernity, Maiden, is to basically make the smart contract itself encrypted.
So people can't see what the program is doing, which is really cool. And this is obviously way in its infancy
because it's a hard technical problem.
And it's something that we're probably going to be working
with because it solves a few things for us.
So obviously, we should DM each other.
But what that does to like for a general user
is that you can then have DeFi that doesn't explain.
Are you already in
touch with seeker network no i can i can get that uh chat set up after this uh yeah because i just
i just i had a eureka on the plane that was like wait after i got the the master deal that was like
oh wait i could make this go way faster um because yeah i'll message you right now there mijo yeah so then there we go yeah so there is
that sort of third level of like making the defy confidential and then when you do that now you can
have all all sorts of privacy so like i'll just give a quick example of like how we might use
secret network um that i think will probably make sense to most users. So, you know, in our protocol, like the way it works is one party can compute the other party's receive address just by knowing its name.
So the name and the metadata for that name, that's all public.
And you can't compute, you know, everybody's receive address from the metadata.
You can only compute your own.
So, like, if I have a list of users and one of the users is Rock,
then the only thing I can compute is my receive address or my address for sending money to Rock, so his receive address on every chain and token. But I can't compute everybody else's because part
of the computation is you need the private key of either the sender or receiver right now when rock
um is receiving the funds he needs to know that i send him the fund so he could like look at the
entire list of users and like compute his receive address for everybody that would take a while
uh so the simpler way is to send an encrypted single message to rock right um so then how do
you do that um well it's encrypted so no only rock can decrypt it because it's encrypted with rocks, public key.
So only rock can see that like, Oh, me how sent the money, for example.
But you also don't want people to be able to see how many messages people are
getting, because if they're getting a bunch of signals,
that means this wallet's probably busy and this other wallet's not, not busy.
Right. So this is one of the things that I want to work with secret on is to basically,
cause we, we were going to do that ourselves. And now I'm like, oh, well, but if the,
if the thing that stores the signals is entirely encrypted and no one can get into it, except like
us, uh, then reasonably, you know, all the signals are hidden. Now, what would happen if all the
signals were exposed? Well, you still wouldn't be able to tell like how much money Rock received or what he
did with those signals. You would just be able to say, well, like this wallet has more likes than
this other wallet, right? So this is just to illustrate the point that privacy is a really
big space. And the second you get to that third level, which is making privacy in Web3 is a big
space. The second you get to the third level where you can make DeFi private,
now you can have all sorts of things that are secret, right?
It's not just, hey, we're going to mix the funds.
We're going to keep the address.
You know, address is stealthy, right?
So, but the first two things is, you know,
just getting that first level, like it's super easy to use.
That's what we're solving.
And then I'm also going to be enabling on chains that have the mixing.
Like I'll be able, I'll make it so that the user can like, you know,
hit a button and be like, all right, I want my funds shielded from my recipient.
Meaning whoever I send money to, they won't see my source of funds.
And I don't have to do that manually.
And I think that's essential, but that also gets me to like a fourth layer of this, which is the privacy actually makes the compliance stronger, which most people don't understand at all.
It's like the government's like always, oh, afraid, you know, we got privacy is going to make money laundering way easier.
Well, in a sense, yes.
But say the law says that like, OK, all the all the exchanges have to know who they're sending and receiving money to. And if you look at like the court cases lately, like, you know, who went to jail for this, right? It off-chain cryptographic proofs, essentially metadata around the transactions because you have the privacy.
And because of that, now you have really strong KYC.
That's peer-to-peer.
So say if Binance is using our system, they can actually just see that all the money that comes in will have a name to it.
Each name can have a KYC proof attached to it.
It's totally decentralized matter.
Fi and Swiss fortress, American fortress,
like these projects that we're creating these wallets,
like we can't see how people are using them.
Like we have no idea what the KYC is.
It's like, I go to a bank and I don't know, you know,
the guy next to me, how much money he has and I shouldn't.
And he doesn't want me to anyway. Right.
But that guy himself like knows
exactly what's going on that's what you want and when you have that the privacy done correctly you
can now have like really interesting additional fintech that's actually way stronger and more
secure than anything in tradify so like one of the things we can prove with our system is we
can prove source of funds completely privately so like user a is depositing the binance and the
binance is like show me where theiting the finance and the finance is like,
show me where the money came from.
And they can send a crypto proof that shows that, Oh, it came from me.
How are this other user? And it's a crypto proof, right?
So it's not like a bunch of paperwork where it's like, yeah, trust me, bro.
This is my bank statements, you know? So the,
the thing we have now, which is really exciting for me,
and this is what I'll finish on, is that, you know, people are starting to, you know, realize that the, you can have the privacy without breaking anything that we have, it actually helps everybody, it's a, it's a benefit, and it even helps the people that want the laws enforced, right, which is really exciting for me, because it's like, okay, now you can do, you know, funds and you can do end-to-end KYC and it's all a cryptographic proof,
which means that if you're two parties and one of you has to comply with the regulations, now you have the tools to do that and it's because privacy.
So to me, it's an exciting time.
Any questions?
Definitely.
Yeah, I want to. uh to me it's an exciting time any questions definitely yeah i wanna no questions directly i'd love to hear more people like jump on and kind of uh
you know give their take like so we so me how we were talking about transactional privacy
uh also privacy at the smart contract or platform level,
we just kind of described a bit about private DeFi,
but what other things can we do today with privacy?
I think the reason this is interesting
and so like you definitely follow Michal guys,
follow everyone on this stage.
If you want to start your privacy journey
these are the accounts that you gotta you gotta follow right here and um
you know if you're a dabbler wherever you're at these guys will either have the technologies
uh or or the knowledge or talk about you know different uh solutions that you can start
using today so this is this is just one conversation but for the future you want to
be following all these accounts but yeah i'd love to hear more uh more things for the average person
like what can we do with privacy today so there is so if you think about like what can you actually do today with
privacy and what's happening and why uh this privacy started being happening and become by
default we can look at uh let's say ethereum um mainnet also although the transactions are public they build uh um a private network of builders
that build the blocks so right now if you send a transaction through metamux for instance
i mean you don't see it but by default the transactions are private they're not advertised publicly anymore and this is happening
because it's it's a need for this to happen obviously it doesn't stop uh the transactions
and the the way the whole thing was built from the beginning doesn't have this privacy kind of
of a aspect built in but there are definitely steps taken because it's needed and it's happening
like blockchains that do this by default that like a secret network for instance this is much more
that's something that we I think most of the blockchain
should be like, that's my opinion
you should have the option to
maintain your
privacy as a
level of the smart contract
transactions and so on
that's how
that's what the ecosystem
now brings on and then there is different use cases
and different projects that focus on specifics um so some of them do specific computation like um
vrf kind of you know generating proofs uh which also can be private because the privacy is very important when when these tasks run so nobody can like find out what would be the true random you know that the game runs on or some kind of application is based off. And if that true random, it's compromised or exposed and is not private,
then obviously the whole randomness, all application is based on it, wouldn't work
properly or would be taken advantage of. So these things actually happen and they are in different areas.
People don't see it.
It's not so pervasive like, okay, now you use privacy.
But one of the examples is Metamask.
That's something that comes up to my mind, which is already happening since I think a year or so.
And everybody is building in this direction. But but of course their approach of making this network
builders it's not the best option because yeah i mean they're trying to fix something that
was not designed like quite you know it was not designed for privacy essentially it was designed
for growth and yeah how it was designed initially um but we can clearly see
that the privacy becomes more and more and yeah i mean there are different things uh there is ai
like projects that do ai kind of a task that maintain privacy of the data, other projects that maintain data pools that are private
and people can use those to like pull out reports or whatever statistics they need.
Yeah, there's different options out there.
I'll say just real quick.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, red-eyed bear.
I was about to call you.
I was like, when are you going to jump in, bro?
Because, because like, so we've talked about a lot of
yeah we've talked about a lot of different things but uh you know private stable coins private defy
um you know these are some other things i think people want to know about as well because i mean
pretty much everyone in crypto has touched defy but we haven't really talked about private DeFi yet.
You know, payments, the AI aspect,
maybe for secret networking a little bit.
And real quick, I just want to say,
welcome to the show, Humpty.
Dustin, what's up, brother?
Glad you're here, man.
We miss you.
And I'm glad you're back on the show.
And yeah, everyone else,
if you do feel like you can't get edge into the conversation, put your hand up.
Mask had their hand up earlier, so I want to jump to them after Red Eye Bear because basically you just got to you got to just jump in.
But Red Eye Bear, please take it away. All good. All good. You know, I'm sitting here thinking about the value of privacy that network participants benefit in from, you within d5 that is privacy at the smart
contract level that's uh what secret network provides um that's what allows shade protocol
to have all these unique value propositions um and it's something that we've kind of preached
since the launch of the launch of our first defy application in our suite uh three years ago but
there's also something that i think is worthwhile pointing out here
is that privacy allows protocols specifically to directly accrue value that would be effectively
impossible on a public by default chain in DeFi. And I'll give a quick example.
So one of Shea Protocol's products that it recently launched is called Shadex. It's our
private by default money market.
For borrowers on Shadex, your LTVs and your liquidation points, your yield debt and all that,
it's all private and only you have the ability to view that by default unless you share
your viewing keys. And that helps prevent value extraction from people hunting those liquidation
points, trying to cause price cascades to be able to take advantage of a particular liquidation. Does that help with
MEV type stuff too? It does. And that's exactly what I was about to get at. Within that same
application, liquidators, and the liquidator in this example is going to be the protocol because of the way part of our liquidation engine,
we are able to earn additional revenue streams, like fee streams, and effectively prevent the
extraction of value from these fee streams via the privacy provided by secret network smart contract.
So this liquid, this first type of liquidation mechanism we use for the money market is basically being
able to sell collateral assets for debt assets on our open market on our spot market shade swap
we have a DEX as well and so being able to route sales of collateral to the debt token over that private DEX as well.
We have the ability to prevent minor extractable value in front running for these transactions because you can imagine if the protocol was trying to liquidate collateral for debt and
they know I'm going to be, there's some discount associated there with that.
They could try and, or if they know I'm going to be swapping to that, they can try and insert their transaction right before mine and extract value from it. They know I'm
going to pump the price up. They can immediately sell it and extract a little bit extra value.
So we're able to prevent that value extraction. And as a result, the protocol is able to tap this
stream of revenue from liquidations itself by, you know, through this particular type of
liquidation. So it's been really cool for Shade Protocol to be able to really push the benefits
of privacy for users of our protocol, people swapping, everyday users swapping on Shade
Swap or everyday borrowers borrowing silk or people liquid staking. But we're at the point now where the protocol itself is able to leverage
these privacy preserving properties of its smart contracts to earn more and become more
sustainable. So this not only helps users retain and earn extra value, but it also,
in a sense, is helping our protocol become more sustainable by being able to tap into these
additional revenue streams that wouldn't be possible on a public by default chain.
So it's just like a little nudge out there to the builders that this is actually, in my opinion,
really encouraging for the future of building private DeFi is that protocols themselves,
businesses themselves that want to be able to put some of their business on chain,
know that they can do so in a way that helps preserve the privacy and value that your users are putting on chain.
But as a business, you're trying to make additional money.
You potentially have new ways to tap into revenue streams as well.
while protecting people.
While protecting people. That is really cool, man.
That is really cool, man.
So in some ways, people might get these benefits of privacy,
and they don't even know they're getting privacy protection necessarily.
It's like doing other things,
like protecting them from front running or stuff
that they don't even know about
that could just be built into the protocols.
Yeah, a lot of the times, you know,
you don't realize the value, at least in DeFi, right? You don't realize the value of privacy until you've had some value extracted. And this is, you know, that is very unfortunately true. But for those who do have some additional foresight, you have a way to protect yourself and potentially earn additional uh yield for your capital or you know time and energy
red iber i i have to ask you and hopefully i'm not putting you on the spot but like
when is uh silk going like multi-chain and is that something you can really speak to like now like i i think about
it like i i um i think a lot of people would be really interested in in uh holding a private
stable coin you know because there's there's probably plenty of people that hold you know
a certain percentage of their portfolio in tether or or uh usdc you know um you gotta pay bills you gotta you know all that stuff but um
yeah can you talk a little bit about uh silk or you know kind of like the future of silk
i'd love to see it adopted more yeah yeah i'll give a quick background on silk real quick um so
uh silk is a over collateralized stable coin it's a private by
default over collateralized stable coin that's pegged to a basket of currencies and commodities
um the the original kind of goal for silk was to create this private uncensorable money um and
i guess kind of it's it's mantra is or it's like modus operandi is to preserve purchasing power
better than any single any single sovereign uh currency which it's done to date it's it's outperformed uh the u.s dollar
i believe by somewhere around like 17 percent uh how does that work it's so it's not pegged to the
u.s dollar that is so it's pegged to um it's pegged to a basket of currencies and commodities. So the currencies that are in this basket include the U.S. dollar, euro, JPY and CAD.
And then the commodities that are included in the peg are Bitcoin and gold.
So one of the beauties of this PEG composition is that this allows SILC to be very reflexive in an obviously ever-changing macroeconomic and regulatory environment.
If there were any particular components of the PEG that had whatever economic or regulatory scrutiny or they were causing issues, they could be removed.
New assets can be added.
Obviously, you would want to do that.
Who manages that composition?
So that would be the DAO, the protocol.
The peg has not changed since its creation.
Silk is over two years old now.
It's been performing extremely well.
Obviously, Bitcoin and gold have done quite well, so that has helped elevate the
peg. And I kind of joke that Silk is one of the only assets in the Cosmos ecosystem continuing to
hit all-time highs this year. But it has performed extremely well. And at the time Silk was created,
or the idea of Silk kind of was formalized. There were maybe
one or two other attempts in creating a private by default stablecoin, but these stablecoins
lacked utility and they lacked interoperability. And given the nascence of the DeFi layers for any
sort of privacy related tokens, Shade shade protocol which is the creator of silk set
out to kind of build this native native private defy layer that could support all the major utility
verticals um for a stable coin um and you know a unique stable coin at that um so this not only
proved out kind of our thesis this super app thesis uh of building all these applications
that are interconnected and support each other other but it also provided a completely aligned utility layer for our stable
coin as well before it kind of hit this mass adoption this critical point uh it's kind of
exported to other chains like aztec was uh kind of alluding to um i'll mention that silk has like
three really incredible value propositions its Its ability to preserve purchasing power, like I mentioned, it's outperformed the US dollar by about 17% over the past two years.
And relative to the euro, maybe a little bit less, it's quite outperformed JPY and Canadian dollar as well.
and Canadian dollar as well. But it is also interoperable and interconnected, meaning it is
a smart contract-based stablecoin. It can interact with other smart contracts. It can be used in
DeFi and via IVC that's available in the Cosmos ecosystem. It can be bridged to other chains in
the Cosmos ecosystem and now you know upcoming many other
uh evm chains and then we also have the privacy for on-chain interactions by default um we we
just wrote a grant um for a team that is uh helping plug all of cosmos into the ag layer by the way um way. Um, I don't believe it was union. I I'm, I'm my brain's foggy right now. I'm sick, but,
um, I don't think it was union, but union is also doing, uh, this, which is really cool to see or
stuff like this. Um, okay. This stable coin as tech has mentioned this before, but this is really interesting.
Okay, it's interesting in a couple ways.
One, that it's just a super cool idea.
Now, two, I'll give a negative here.
Okay, let me give some more positives first.
Then I'll go to the negative.
So positives are... We'll happily take all the criticisms, good and bad.
Hell yeah.
Yeah, we try to have hard discussions
on this show. So, okay. The positives, this is like, this is the kind of innovation I really
want to see in stable coins. I am very unhappy with stable coins thus far. I mean, they're so
concentrated in these centralized stable coins. It'll probably become like, you know,
parts of the central banking system at some point.
They're moving in that direction.
And which is, by the way,
generally positive for our industry that we have,
you know, the central bankers and the government states,
Trump, everyone getting, you know,
going in on crypto with the Genius Act and Bit21,
all these things, right?
Okay. I am concerned though that 95% of all the liquidity or 90% of all the liquidity of stable coins is in centrally controlled, censorable, you know, confiscatable, possibly these stable coins. And now you have the new bills are basically enshrining those, um, those stable coins
saying, you know, you can only be a stable coin if you're backed by, you know, 95% or a hundred
percent, whatever they're saying, um, bonds look, this is good for the U S I live in the U S. Um,
I don't know if it's the best thing for our industry or the world, but it's definitely good for the U S and the dollar to, uh, like if we move into this web three world, um,
that the dollar could be kind of powering that world in some weird ways.
Um, so interesting stuff.
I worry now this goes, starts transitioning into the negative that those bills would definitely
I think, okay.
They wouldn't X out your stable coin, but they
wouldn't support it. They wouldn't give it the, the, the tip of the hat, the nod and saying,
Hey, you're not a security. You're all good. We like you, um, your stable coin. I'm pretty sure
not legal or financial advice, but I don't think yours would be included because it's not backed majority by treasuries
or dollars. And it's also backed by other countries' currencies, which is why Libre or
Libra, whatever the Facebook thing was probably shut down because it was going to be a basket of
currencies. But this is really interesting. And it's kind of like what even like bricks are wanting
to do with commodity backed stable coins, but you're using commodities and a basket of other foreign currencies. This is
a super cool and having privacy in it. So, I mean, this is a fucking amazing idea.
I do want to make an important distinction here. The components of the peg of silk are not the
same as the collateral backing. They can be
accepted as collateral, but they are not necessarily the collateral backing. For example,
we accept wrapped Bitcoin as collateral to borrow silk. Again, silk is over collateralized, right?
So you're going to have to deposit more value as collateral than what we're going to allow you to borrow. But for example, we don't have gold
accepted as a form of collateral. So the components of the peg that dictate the peg price
are not the same as the actual collateral backing. For example, we accept wrapped ETH and wrapped STE
as for collateral for borrowing silk, but neither of those are within the peg.
There are very interesting things that you can do in order to really increase the efficiency
for borrowers. For example, there's a model that we could use, like an ALM model, where you have
asset liability matching, where you would be able to come in and collateralize
US dollar, euro, Japanese yen, the Canadian dollar, gold, and Bitcoin in their exact weightings that
they are within the peg. And you should be able to borrow effectively 100% of the value against
that because the value of your collateral perfectly moves with the value of the peg. But that's not currently
the case. Each of these different vaults for being able to borrow silk, they're all isolated.
So this would have to be another sort of minting mechanism that we would add to this. So I do just
want to point that out, that you can collateralize other crypto assets
that are not included in the peg in order to borrow Silk. The performance of the peg
and the volatility of the peg comes from the performance of those peg components.
And this actually, while it may be a slightly more complicated topic to talk about,
Silk provides a really unique earning opportunity for borrowers
of the stable coin because of that inherent volatility in its peg. Now, obviously, you
want to try and minimize that volatility. Otherwise, it's not really considered a stable,
you know, store of value or a form of currency. But because of that volatility, you can have deviations of the market rate from
the peg rate, just from the performance of its components, that creates abilities for borrowers
to perform debt arbitrage, where you effectively are able to buy debt at a cheaper price than what
the current peg price is and repay your debt valued at that peg
price. And so because of this, this opens up a very unique earning opportunity for
silk borrowers to be able to, if you do this enough, you effectively could get paid and earn
from borrowing, which would normally be a costly endeavor. You pay interest for this.
But over time, performing that debt arbitrage, especially depending on the relative volatility
of the peg components, you could actually earn a very decent amount of money. So this is a unique
value proposition for silk borrowers as well because of that floating peg.
for silk borrowers as well because of that floating peg.
I think it's like probably impossible to talk about privacy without even touching on regulation.
I think Rock kind of talked about different regulators enshrining certain stable coins.
I'm not talking about silk specifically, but just kind of anonymous or private stable coins.
Specifically, you've probably all seen like
what last week the eu announced that they're going to just outright ban or they're proposing a ban
i think they're likely to be uh we'll say more problematic than regulation on stable coins because
for silk it's not a u.s dollar stable coin it's never claimed to be uh it's not um a derivative
of the u.s dollar So the regulation for US dollar derivatives
is... Yeah. And like I said, I'm not saying for Silk specifically, but just more generally,
do you not do specifically you, everyone on the call, do you think this is like a capped
growth market? This is obviously going to be a highly regulated if we're talking about stable
coins, there's going to be an extra layer of scrutiny for privacy coins.
You combine the two units.
Do you think that like a decentralized privacy stable coin is destined to just kind of be like a niche product?
Or do you think that there's a kind of widespread appeal if the goal the gold block i don't still go mainstream i don't because what
will happen is the world will start using stable coins that are backed by dollars and then the us
will do what the us does and they will weaponize them right and they will start including them in
their sanctions regime and these things and again i'm an'm an American. I'm a proud patriot. I love my country,
but there's no question the US is going to be US-ing. And we're going to be trying to
censor and freeze accounts and all that. Great way to say that.
And as we do that, people are going to look for alternatives. Now, I don't know if the
alternative is silk. Maybe. It sounds very cool.
But I think over time, as Bitcoin stabilizes,
it will become the stable coin of the world.
But that is still far out.
That might be 10, 20 years out.
But, yeah, it's an interesting question.
Yeah.
Yeah, anyone else want to piggyback on that?
I also want to say welcome welcome to the show paul
good uh great to have you back but that's a great question to vision i don't know if anyone else
wants to piggyback off that yeah i'll jump in sorry if there's a little background noise can
you hear me okay i'm driving at the moment that's why it's not too bad it sounds good yeah
awesome awesome i just wanted to say um one of the
so first of all this is anubis speaking on the secret network account uh my opinions are not
necessarily secret networks opinions uh that out of the way one of the things i just wanted to say
what what i've always loved about silk um and what red-eyed bear was just talking about is it it really makes in-person defy payments
possible like in my opinion privacy coming back to the original question like what is privacy
why does a newcomer care about privacy privacy is about is about security, in my opinion. It's a fundamental
piece of the technology that has been missing for far too long. And I think it's actually the
key to real-world adoption of blockchain, decentralized technologies, and crypto.
of blockchain decentralized technologies and crypto. So coming back to SILF,
one of the issues with in-person payments using like a US dollar stablecoin, they're all on public
blockchains. And so if you make a payment in person, you've immediately doxed yourself,
you've shown your face. If you're paying at a store for something, maybe you've been carded and now your
ID, your address is known to the person that just took a payment. And that's really not safe.
Anybody that knows how to use a blockchain explorer can now check out your wallet,
know your net worth, map out when you get, um, when you commonly, are you saying if you go,
sorry, I was, um, I'll type into someone, but, uh, my apologies, but are you talking about when
you go into a store, like, and you, like, you might also hand them, like, let's say you use
your blockchain wallet and you paid for some beer and you handed them your ID. Now, they know how much money you have. They know your address.
They know where you sleep. That part is such a ridiculous system to me.
Yeah. And that's the store. I mean, it could be Uber or any other in-person payment, like just
fill in the blank, right? What in-person payment are you using? And then just think about whether
you're
comfortable with that person that took your payment, knowing your pay schedule, your net worth,
and everything that you spend money on. Generally speaking, I think the answer would be no.
And so it's really about security. And for newcomers, just trying to stay away from very technical things.
When you think about the applications you use, like every application you use, all your devices, your phone, when you go into settings, you will find privacy in security as a category.
And that's for a reason. It's because privacy is integral to your security,
whether that is intellectual property or personal security, like I just mentioned,
someone knowing where you sleep and how much money you have. So it really is that fundamental
piece that unlocks real world adoption of crypto. And Silk is really the only one I know of
that takes in-person payments on a stable asset
into the real world as a possibility.
I know, personally, I will never pay for an Uber
using Ethereum USDC.
But Silk, I would,
because I know that the data is encrypted by default.
And then, as far as secret network goes,
like secret network enables privacy
at the computational level.
So confidential computing,
and that's what allows smart contracts to exist
that unlock DeFi applications like Shade Protocol, Silicon, and other things.
But getting away from financial things, there's so many other things that privacy enables for
Web3. One of the other speakers, I can't remember which one, maybe it was the person on the Evernity account, mentioned RNG, so random number generation.
When you think of blockchain gaming, blockchain games are easily front ran and cheated.
Because if it's on chain, on a public blockchain, you can map out what's going to happen everything's
pretty much deterministic so with a privacy technology you can encrypt that and make it
front run resistant so um whether it's something like a dice roll if it's damage, whatever the gaming application needs random numbers for,
that's only unlocked for blockchain gaming by using a privacy technology like what Secret Network uses.
Also, at the computational level, one of the big hype narratives is AI, decentralized AI,
autonomous AI agents. And that's another thing that confidential
computing solves for. So in my opinion, AI should be decentralized as far as like the biggest
positive impact for humanity. And on my personal opinion, I want to see AI infrastructure decentralized, but that comes with a caveat. Currently, the state of AI infrastructure, whoever owns the GPU hardware is able to see all of your inference, all of your prompts, all of the data that you're
feeding into the AI. So if you're adding any kind of sensitive information into an agent,
business use cases, anything of this nature, using ChatGPT, OpenAI now owns all of that data,
now owns all of that data, which is not good. In centralized AI, you know who to go after if your
data is leaked. So you know you can go after open AI. Good luck. But at least you know who it is,
right? In decentralized AI without privacy, you don't know who owns that hardware. It's decentralized, which in many ways is a good thing. But the problem is when your sensitive data gets leaked, you have no idea who you can go after or who's at fault, right?
is like what Secret Network and several others are doing, which is make that computation,
the GPU computations for AI, encrypted by default so that there's no longer a way for
the people that own the GPUs to snoop on your data.
So that's another thing that is unlocked by privacy
uh it makes decentralized ai once again going back to secure makes it safe
um for for users for businesses for builders and so yeah i guess everything comes right back to privacy is security, in my opinion.
You kind of mentioned earlier in your chat that or early in what you just said about mainstream adoption.
And I think one thing that we haven't necessarily expressed is that if mainstream adoption is going to happen, it can't be 100 percent private.
You know, it's kind of a romantic idea, in my opinion, and I do like it.
But, you know, I don't think it's very realistic.
I think what we do need is some level of selective privacy.
And yeah, you want control of that.
That's the term.
Yeah.
And I think that's something that we should really be crystallizing.
So you have something that's really great, really cool, like secret network, you know, maybe where we have to get to is, okay, you have these on chain applications, there's, there's parts of that workflow, which either, you know, might be compelled to be public, let's just say, for compliance reasons, and there's portions of that that you want to be private, you offload kind of that portion of the workflow to something like secret network, do some private computation there.
That kind of secure data or that sensitive data remains private.
And then the rest of the flow can go back into like a public by default chain or some sort of permission network, just kind of depending on the use case. So I kind of see that as a more realistic direction
that we can actually execute
as we try to get the world running on blockchain.
Yeah, I would broadly agree with that.
I agree with that.
Yeah.
I think the model is selective disclosure.
That's the correct term.
People should own their data by default
and be able to disclose it at need.
And also, I believe the future is multi-chain and multi-technology.
So yes, certain things will be far more efficient and better if it is built completely public,
while other aspects will be far more efficient and usable when it's private.
So the ability to kind of integrate and use multiple technologies is a key factor.
100%. You took the words right out of my mouth, Anubis.
Multi-technology is exactly, I think, the future that we're looking
at you know I think some people say
this is the best technology
for XYZ but technically I think
you know the future really is
all these technologies working
together
I do want to
you know what Michal's building be able to be
used with silk like that would be
awesome
bro bro talk to him talk to him man you get it done you let me know if you want
to connect we'll definitely connect make that happen let's see who's here um aztec can you
can you do that actually oh yeah yeah i got that for for right there after this after this uh
hit me i don't know how they're not
already working together honestly i'm pretty sure uh meow and i actually have dms uh from
meeting at a bit angels event so ah nice yeah actually we had you guys speak on stage together
at a bit angels event that's right yeah let's it forward. That's what I love about this show.
This show is like, you know,
we often joke it's the Roman bathhouse
and we're all sitting around in our robes
drinking wine or naked if you prefer that.
And this is the perfect thing.
We're in a Roman bathhouse
and like one person is making a new,
you know, Roman currency
and this other guy has a way to keep it private
and protect people's freedoms. And, you know roman currency and this other guy has a way to keep it private and protect
people's freedoms and you know we're we now we got to go sell it to the senate freedom yes i i i just
oh i want to say you know welcome to the show omni network and uh i want to go back to mask
because they had their hand up a while ago and we just, you know, the conversation was just flowing.
So I didn't want to stop it.
But Mask, was there something that you wanted to piggyback off of?
I think maybe someone else, something else that someone was talking about or did you have something you wanted to add?
Yeah, it was at the beginning of the conversation where it was about how is privacy essential and
about the general, let's say, applications of general today's application for Web3 users.
Like everything starts and then we talked about wallets and chain analysis and how we have
companies that are trying to link every wallet you own to
centralize the exchange or an operation that you did on chain and everything like that.
And to be honest, it's really hard to be private nowadays. But if you start from scratch and
you kind of have a playbook or let's say a guidebook where you say, okay, from this day on,
my wallet is going to be private.
All my identity online would be,
I'll try to keep it private.
We have always to remind ourselves that
it is hard to be private,
but using the right tools,
you could be private even from the root level.
So even if you're interacting with a website and then using your wallet on another app
and using them on the same machine, on the same browser,
there is the fingerprinting aspect that is dangerous. And if today we have those companies that are tracking just your wallets and transactions,
one day we will have startups or we will have intelligence companies that will link the
normal, let's say, the web navigation to your wallets and that that will be dangerous um so today you get ads based on
let's say the post you like how old are you your name where you live uh etc maybe in the future
you would you'd receive ads and and if you start receiving ads mean they profile to you
according to your transactions uh according to your to your previous transaction
to your transaction history according to how much money do you have how many stable how many of a
stable coin you have when did you ape into this coin when did you send this when did you do that
so privacy starts at the very first um let's say at the should start at the very first level so we need to make sure
that we're using tools to be private and secure as privacy and security go hand in hand if you're
not private you're 100 not secure online um so we start with the basic actions from web navigating
using mask of course to executing to using uh private stable coins uh private defy
uh private ai especially with with all the tools that uh from web3 and and to be honest i'm very
proud of being part of this space when i see that most privacy initiatives start uh start from web3
founders that are privacy conscious.
So yeah, start from the basics and then
develop and let's say
acquire more
skills being private online
as you go.
I love that advice.
It's really great. You know, I'd like to
dive
into and shout out to That's really great. You know, I'd like to dive into,
oh, and shout out to you guys, Mask.
I love someone demoed your guys' UI a while back,
and I thought it was really cool that there on the browser,
you could have widgets.
So you could basically like widgets so you could like basically
select like different privacy solutions that are your favorite and just like
kind of just have them as little widgets easy click so so like that's a that's a
really cool thing like if you want to dive into inside the master what does
we have workspaces you you could have it's like
an os-like browser so what you could do uh you could have a specific workspace and that workspace
you could select how many hops so you could uh let's say have a fine balance between privacy
and security because masks enables you select from one hop which is like a vpn to five hops which is even more than tour so
it lets you balance between speed and security and it gives you a sense of having this private
private space where you can access the apps and by the way we invite any let's say the app
the app ceo or founder or project manager to request to to be listed on the mask
uh mask the app store so we list our friends after doing some dojo due diligence of course
so yeah you have you have your your tiny private space and even if you don't like if you don't like
the browser and you want to keep using your everyday browser, you still have the extension that enables you to basically
be as private, more or less as private as you are on the browser site.
Yeah, I think that's a massive selling point and really cool for someone that's just diving
into privacy and wants to see some privacy solutions
that have already had some due diligence
and they can easily just access them
and have them as widgets, right?
You know, all in the UI there.
So that's really cool.
I'd really like to kind of dive into something
that Anubis was talking about,
this future of, you know,
many types of solutions, privacy solutions all working together.
And what do you guys think that that looks like?
You know, so this is kind of like a two-part question you know
what what does it look like with all these all the technologies working together how do you and and
really just like where is privacy going in the next like five years so you know what what are
we going to see different as well i'd really really like to have anyone jump in on this.
Now, guys, if you're new to the show, you don't have to raise your hand.
Just jump in.
We like to have a free-flowing conversation.
But, yeah, take it away.
I'm sorry for being too polite, but I think that the idea of putting things like a PGP key on Bitcoin or some other public blockchains really productive.
Personally, you know, we're a Bitcoin software company. So like, that's a little bit in my
proximity. But, you know, having a relay and a very, very minimized like client that says,
hey, I'm looking for this exact string. This is how I'm going to be able to find it. You know,
I know there's these types of data suppliers that could give me that, whether it's a Bitcoin node or an essentialized API or a decentralized API that you could run on something
like ICP. There's a lot of different theorems on how to do the sort of like privacy interoperability.
They're all real difficult. But I think that Bitcoin as the network that we would reference for,
you know, a sort of verifiable hash doesn't mean that you have to prove that you own the account or actually do any transactions or sign anything
on Bitcoin.
But having a place that you trust to, you know, read a certain key and then verify or
pivot something from that, there's a lot of utility in that.
So I think there's a future right in front of us where, you know, Polygon, Polkadot, a whole bunch of very, very different blockchains and non-blockchain services, you know, could easily see something like a PGP key, something like a 64 byte or 128 byte value and use that as a pivot point.
that we'll keep it simple when we do privacy across multiple platforms because the more you
try to make that feature rich, the more potential vulnerabilities there are, the more likely it is
that it's going to be abused, misused, misconfigured. So I think if we can keep it simple
and agree on some very, very minimalistic similarities across multiple products,
we'll have an easier time reaching a standard instead of saying, hey, I'm going to take a
backseat to my competitor's features.
There's a real business value to jumping ahead of your competitor.
And I don't see why we can't do that as an industry, leapfrogging each other, and at
the same time having just a reference for a hash somewhere that lets us start a conversation.
I think that's pretty reasonable. Any takers? Any yays or nays?
I think that's pretty reasonable.
Any takers?
Any yays or nays?
I'll let someone jump on if they want to or just continue the conversation.
I think I would.
Yeah, I can hop in quickly because this is like some somewhat the interoperability problem just with like an extra privacy spin to it.
So, yeah, it is obviously a very difficult problem to solve.
It's something that a lot of projects,
why I should include it, are working on, you know,
there's different considerations in terms of the role of the interoperability
layer. I'll talk about the problems that we have there momentarily,
but just kind of at a very fundamental level,
how hands on or hands off you want the kind of relay or to be the form that it
takes should be actual kind of relaying level,
the people who are not kind of versed in interoperability,
but the piece that's basically taking data from, you know,
one chain and putting it onto another chain.
If you're somewhere in that workflow dealing with a private chain or some private data you
know what's the responsibility of the of the relay to preserve that privacy so there's all sorts of
questions to answer there and you know bridges have also you know been the target of you know
a lot a lot of legal troubles and various hacks and things like that. So there's
still a lot of considerations. We all saw what happened with like tornado cash and things like
that. So there's still a lot of things that have to play out. And just at the interoperability
level itself, right now, there's still a big lack of industry-wide standards. And so this is really holding everyone back.
Basically, interoperability, private or otherwise, should be like core infrastructure.
But right now, it's just a bunch of projects that are basically developing products and trying to shoehorn their products in as core infrastructure.
So these are also problems that need to be be resolved
fully agree um and and i i really think that at least from what i'm seeing from the inside is that
kind of speaking to the interoperability part of this conversation that um over time i think that a lot of these interoperability solutions are all going to kind of work together uh for instance like polygon and other teams are
building the ag layer and i'm seeing you know different types of cross-chain messaging
chain messaging solutions, reaching out and trying to figure out how they, you know, fit into
or integrate or work with the Aglier. And so I think like, you're just going to have that
optionality and be able to, there's going to be many different types of solutions all working
together in specifically in the interoperability world.
But like more to my question, question just a little bit ago, you know, it's, it's, it's all these things kind of synergistically working together, you know, in the future, I think
interoperability and is one thing that will be, you know, it's, you already have interoperability to a certain extent.
People talk about clusters, but interoperability will only get better over time.
But additionally, there will be composability between all the platforms and solutions.
So this all just gets better. But is there anyone else want to comment on, you know, what does like the future of privacy look like, you know, the next five years, things like that?
Paul, please take it.
Yeah. Is anyone speaking?
Just about to ask.
I can't hear him.
I don't hear him either.
Paul, I see you come off mute, brother, but I can't hear you.
I can't hear you. I'm not sure if the setting or something.
I'm not sure if the setting or something.
Still can't hear you if you're speaking, Paul.
Sometimes it happens. It's just X rugging people.
Sometimes it's like a ear, like a microphone.
But yeah,
you might want to drop down and then come back up.
One thing that I would personally be really interested in,
and I'm speaking way out of my depth here.
This is just from pure interest.
For products that get a lot of their privacy from hardware,
products that get a lot of their privacy from hardware.
I think it would be great to see some of these,
the use of being able to use multiple execution,
trusted execution environments.
So like Secret Network uses Intel,
trusted execution environments.
I think it would be great to provide some additional resiliency for whenever researchers or something worse inevitably find some way
to leak some data via something in the hardware.
Being able to provide a little bit more resilient privacy prostrating would be really
awesome i i assume this something that secret is uh looked into i'm not sure what the current state
of that is um that's a really interesting thread to pull on. That is over my head as well, but I do get what you're saying and how that would be valuable.
I have a, I feel like I, so I read, I've read over like papers that Guy Ziskin has written in the past.
And when he was talking about the constellation of privacy networks or something along those lines, that might have been in there or something else I read.
I read so much stuff, but yeah, that's, that would be awesome.
I want to say welcome to the show, Prometheus.
the show prometheus we follow you back bro and uh yeah so basically hey hey yeah we're just we're
We follow you back, bro.
just talking about the future of privacy right now we've had a long discussion we're in our third hour
and uh you know we've kind of talked about uh kind of introduced a lot of different technologies in
the privacy space but then uh you know kind of dove into you know what can you do with privacy
today and now we're talking about the future not sure if you want to jump in on that
yeah gladly uh thanks for having me up really love quick swap and you know what you guys are
doing for quite some time good to see my friends from mask here as well awesome privacy browser
um but no like guys look that's one of the biggest biggest
advantages of this frontier technology and industry that we're all involved in.
Personally as someone here living in the UK right now I can tell you thank God
for privacy chains. Like I am so grateful for Monero and you know for a bunch of these systems that allow
tell it to the people of Canada during the trucker protests Hong Kong during
those protests all over the world man it's like maybe in the US we feel
privileged and we might not care as much about privacy but there's a lot of
countries in the world like this particularly ones that want to take away some of our freedoms and rights, where privacy matters a whole lot.
Amen, Rock. I'm glad you jumped in there, bro, because we are facing a global tyrannical system that is just like creeping into every dimension of life.
And really, if we're being honest here, crypto is the freedom economy.
Like if when we do this right, which you guys are doing at QuickSwap and, you know, a lot
of people, you know, I'm really a fan of Charles Hoskinson's Cardano and especially
Midnight.
I'm really looking forward
to Midnight because for those of you who don't know in the audience, it's going to be a privacy
layer that's going to come into the Cardano ecosystem. And, you know, just it allows for
business to happen the way it's supposed to happen. I feel like there are some things that
I'm perfectly fine telling the world about being
on chain.
Okay, you can know about my Bitcoin holdings, you can know about my, you know, the things
I'm doing with XRP or whatever else.
But, you know, a lot of my transactions, I don't want people to know, okay, and I'm okay
with perfectly, you know, leaving it right there, you know, like we don't need to go
into all that. And, and, and that's, that's unfortunately going to be lost in a world of,
you know, central banking, digital currencies here in the UK and Europe, you know, the Bank
of England is hiring people for CBDCs. Europe is set to roll out a CBDC in November. So, you know,
this is one of the reasons why I'm telling like all my friends in Europe and throughout just like right you guys need to do a mass
Exodus west out of this
you know out of this
Archaic system that they're gonna further cement and instead, you know move to the freedom economy man because we're building it here
Do it that sounds awesome web 3 becomes a virtual country guys
this is our country this is our our we are our our own like kind of clan and there's going to
be a lot of countries that are going to push back on this stuff. But I like Balaji's stuff about the network state.
And I think hopefully over time borders become less of a thing.
And you can kind of choose what governance model you want to be a part of virtually and digitally.
Well, you just said governance.
And that's actually what I wanted to ask about next, which is funny.
Are you trying to finish your thought or can I ask this question?
No, no, go ahead and jump in.
Yeah.
Okay.
So like I've been wanting to ask this question.
We've got a lot of privacy gigabrains here, but governance is, you know, we've talked about transactional privacy
and computational privacy and, you know, different privacy solutions that are here
building really cool stuff. But one thing we haven't talked about is governance and how privacy privacy could change governance now that could be like you know governments uh government um
or or like governance and uh you know on chain but uh i think that privacy is really needed
for governance across the board and i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that
and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that.
Yeah. Can you hear me?
Yes.
All right.
There we go, Paul.
Sorry, guys.
I'm in the airport, so yeah.
So I think the question is really good.
First of all, our team, Prismo and Bayana Chain,
are doing the putting on-chain the budget of the Philippines.
So we've finished already the public data.
It's going to be live this May.
So every government budget that is released on agencies is going to be on-chain.
So, you know, what we're saying really about, you know, governance in terms of privacy is an enterprise and government, they need to put every data, as mentioned by these brainy folks out here,
is really like, you know, because the norm of blockchain is really public.
But how about, let's say, for example, I'm the one who's approving the budget for the police.
And of course, I don't want to be exploited because maybe there's some goons there that, you know, maybe they will know where am I or, you know, where my house at, right?
So technically, but those kind of like approver later on can be a good evidence in court, especially if we're talking about investigation for the budget, right?
for the budget, right?
So, and going to the future of privacy,
that's why it's very important for us
to be able to really put homomorphic encryption on chain.
Not fully, but at least the partial homomorphic
so we can really, like, you know, in a way,
have the line item or the private data
is still on chain, but it's encrypted.
But if you want to query a specific data
or just do a selective data query,
we don't need to decrypt all the data.
So in a way we're solving some sort of like,
you know, issue within, okay, these are all my data.
I don't, some data are gonna be put on private but i want to but i want every data to put to put on chain but you know every private data how do you
how do we ensure that the government doesn't edit it or you know remove it so every every data needs
to be put on chain so technically that's what we're trying to do for the Department of Budget and Management.
Cool. Aztec, could I quickly just answer the question you asked?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, and really great work, Paul.
Yeah.
Prometheus. Yeah, Paul, cool stuff that you guys are
building down in the Philippines man. But yeah, just very quickly to answer your
question and also what Rock brought up about the network state as well because
when it comes to governance, I think this is where blockchain can offer some of
the most powerful problem-solving use cases in the marketplace
the way that existing systems absolutely are failing to do. Like, you know, we just had an
election in Canada, not to be conspiratorial, but I do not believe that the Liberal Party was just
overwhelmingly loved by all Canadians because of what has happened
these past, you know, whatever amount of years under, you know, the phony Trudeau, you know,
like, but I can't corroborate that. Why? Because all the votes are freaking black box, right? Same
here in the UK, like, like, you can't sign your ballots, right? People can't see afterwards. And yet, you know, for American Idol,
oh, we know exactly how many, you know,
votes came in for, you know, Talia here
for her amazing singing of, you know,
I can or whatever, like, you know, this,
we seem to have solved this for entertainment,
but for actual critical stuff,
like who's running your state and national budgets, no, no, no, that's too, you know, we can't, it's too sacrosanct.
Yeah, like it's, so I think, you know, blockchain has a massive role to play here.
I'm particularly impressed by the Cardano constitution.
I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, but it is nations of like
40 different nations. Rock talked about us being a nation up here on Quickswap and Polygon. I agree.
Awesome. I'm looking forward to that dimension of the project's growth and so on. But
the Cardano Constitution, I truly believe, a, is a, is a leap in the democratic
process and the way, you know, they came together to agree on all these kinds of like fundamental
voting protocols, budgeting protocols, their D reps and whatnot. You know, I think that's a positive
step in the right direction. You know, no one's saying the model is perfect, but, you know, it's
still an innovative step. And I think, you know, for those of us, like Raf mentioned, like, you
know, who are serious about the freedom economy, like ensuring humanity goes to the stars, we live
damn amazing lives, and we're not worried about, you know, anybody taking away our freedoms
fundamentally. I think, you know, this is where, you know,
like I'm inviting all you gigabrains, let's work together on this because this is, you know,
our children and our children's children, you know, our great-grandchildren will be thanking us
for actually developing this, implementing it, making sure it is out of the hands of the tyrannical forces of this world
who seek to use this very special technology of blockchain for digital prisons. Like, no,
we're not doing that. We're done. We're done with that bulkhead. That was so last century. That was
so last 20th century. We're not doing that this millennial reign of Christ. Okay, we're not doing
that shit. So anyway, just wanted to throw that in there
with you on that yeah this is definitely a movement and i agree i agree that uh you talked
about uh like there's so much to dd in this space and try to you know you know keep up with and one of the things
is uh trying to keep up with all the cardona so if you sound knowledgeable i'm not very knowledgeable
on the cardona side other than i got a good friend over there uh rick mccracken um that i've known
for a long time and uh i i see his posts and stuff but what what are what are they doing on the uh
decentralized governance side?
Can we double click on that?
Yeah, sure.
I mean, again, I'm not a pro.
I'm just looking into the whole DREP stuff.
But basically, my understanding of it is that all the different DREPs have the ability
to put forward a proposal and then it then gets voted
on by the entire community.
And there are certain people who have a greater weight in the vote than others.
Again, I'm not sure how much I agree with that from a personal perspective.
I don't know if an ideal democracy would work like that, but that's their system for the
moment.
So if you have more ADA, I think you have some degree of a greater vote in certain areas.
But no, just generally speaking, I think the Cardano constitution and the whole of Cardano. That's kind of like a, you know, on-chain governance budget that, you know, people can decide like where, you know,
they're allocating capital for different projects.
You know, they've got everything from, you know,
farming projects all the way through to, you know,
developing robotics, all kinds of interesting things.
And the entire community as a whole gets to vote on it. So
I think generally speaking, that's a wise way to go forward. I would love to see this across
different chains as well. And in my ideal world, we would be like a decentralized nation state.
We can live wherever around the world, but when it comes to critical decisions about, you know, how it is, you know, we're going to build our next world island,
for example, right, where, you know, the next iteration of our population are going to go and
live and work and play, you know, that we as a, you know, as a nation, decentrally could vote on critical matters like that.
So I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.
Again, I'm not a specialist.
I've had conversations with Charles Hoskinson.
We do follow one another and talk sometimes in the back channels.
I am working with them directly as well.
But it's an evolving field.
It's something I need to study further as well. But that's my limited understanding.
Now, thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. That's really interesting. I'm glad you guys
are working on governance in that capacity and finding some success it's definitely like blockchain definitely needs to be involved in governance like all like all governance but then yeah if
anyone wants to add on to what uh we're talking about or has like a thought um about like how
privacy can can benefit governance um Yeah, please jump in.
This is good stuff.
This is talking about our previous conversation.
I'm not calling it full circle here,
but Midnight's a good call out
because Midnight is a substrate blockchain.
It is designed to integrate with Cardano
and Cardano is making some very small adaptions
that I'm aware of to sort of accept it and work with it.
But a UTXO oriented chain, even if they do UTXOs in a way that is somewhat
different from Bitcoin, you know, that being a an organization that's friendly to privacy
and do interoperability at Bitcoin.
Like, I think that they have been maturing a lot over there.
And I'll admit that I've talked some shit over the years.
I was a big Ouroboros fan, so when the cluster scaling didn't work out, I was kind of disappointed
personally.
But whether I agree with Charles on some of the research paper stuff or not, Like, you know, he's, he's been,
you know, in earnest trying to make some good decisions about this stuff. I don't need to
nitpick him to say that, Hey, there's a relatively reasonable roadmap in front of us. If we're
talking about interoperability that, you know, being able to maintain that interop with smart
contract oriented blockchains and also UTX oriented blockch. Like, that is the holy grail for a reason.
It's a lot of work.
It's not going to – I don't think that's going to come up in the next five years, honestly.
I think that we've been doing different things to sort of plug that gap and to fill that need and demand,
and we will for the next five years.
But the market's going to have to grow more and be more normalized for us to get to the point where, you know, we'll say, hey, I'm willing to accept this sort of like handicap as an interoperability protocol because IBM, Hewlett Packard, and whatever other, you know, let's say Cyrus One or AWS, you know, data center infrastructure folks, you know, the applications that are, let's say, critical to most
significant infrastructure that we see in data centers today. I think until we see a little bit
more of the interoperability being friendly to Web2 and simultaneously taking these things forward,
the demand's not going to quite be there. Like right now, I can go to a lot of SaaS applications and type in John Doe and give him a temp email and get some service and do something.
But why shouldn't I, you know, also have a path where I could, let's say, deposit one to five dollars worth of tokens, get that level of demo out of it.
And then they say, hey, you've only sent us X number of Cardano, Bitcoin, Polygon, whatever asset.
You know, here's
your sort of limited run demo level.
You're paying it forward.
So, you know, like this is the level of interoperability I think that's really necessary to make privacy
more effective for the global individual, because today it's still kind of a rare dish.
Like majority of people who I talk to are, you know, very comfortable zelling me, even though
Zelle is one of the most active, you know, reporters, not just to the IRS, but to other
multinational agencies about payment habits. Like I don't like using that service because it sells
my data quite frequently. And, you know, the world's going to either have to A, care about
that a little bit more, or B, not have to work as hard to get a similarly better result than, you know, something that really, really lacks privacy and sort of
gives you the illusion of it instead. So I just, I had to pop up and say, you know,
shout out to the Cardano ecosystem for making some progress on that. But I think that there's
There is a wider appreciation for it at a lot of blockchains right now.
a wider appreciation for it at a lot of blockchains right now, Polygon and Supernets,
Polygon and Supernets, ICP and the Bitcoin subnet.
I think there is a growing appreciation for this kind of strategy where you have to, A, be a little patient with Web2 integrations, and B, focus on Interop that's going to last.
Yeah, a lot of really good points there.
Yeah, a lot of really good points there.
Now, I do agree that currently, I'm trying to remember the exact phrase you used, but essentially crypto still, it's early.
And even from a regulatory standpoint and adoption standpoint, we're early.
And I think you said something along the lines of, you know, we probably won't see it in the next five years.
Now, the part that I slightly disagree on is that I think we're about to be caught off guard by how fast this space moves in the next three to four years it's just like a a theory
of mine that i i believe that the uh kind of frameworks are being established to where
crypto is going to be in and privacy and i know in the uk there's some privacy issues there and
and all that but i what I think is going to happen
is almost like the great space race where there's going to be like a blockchain kind
of race where many countries are going to fight to be the crypto capital of the world
and try to enable blockchain companies to build. And I think we're going to see our industry kind of go hyperspeed.
I do believe privacy will join that like hyperspeed kind of movement because
even like the early internet for a long time, you know, privacy was this major concern. And then the US, the White House got over that.
And now we have privacy in Web2.
And I think that as they realize institutions,
large companies, and everyone else realizes that it's extremely important and you can have privacy
and still be compliant. You know, I think that regulation and all this is just going to be built
and that blockchain is just going to move really quickly. Privacy is also going to go,
you know, be widely adopted. And I also think that all of our technologies are kind of getting
to a point to where we are pretty much getting really close to to being ready for mass adoption
or at least a lot more adoption um and uh so so that that's that's my take i don't know if anyone has like maybe a different
perspective on the next five years you know for privacy specifically but you know i guess you know
in general blockchain like do you think you know we're going to start moving hyperspeed or
or do you think it's going to be a slow grind still for a while yeah maybe i can add to that
yeah so yeah i just just want to like you know in a way to point out that since uh data is a new asset class already and privacy really is very important thing to to discuss to think about each other especially on chain because imagine that you know
without blockchain a data cannot be an asset and we're moving into like you know into a generation
into into like you know maybe in the next four to five years that um whatever data i put on the internet, I should be able to own it.
Since AI is also, like, you know, in Microsoft,
we've been doing some research about homomorphic encryption and other stuff.
But even Microsoft is admitting that, you know, without privacy,
we're going to be having a hard time on, you know,
managing the models that this public ai company is creating so i guess we need
to really like you know join forces all the chains to really like you know promote privacy
especially that data is the new asset class already
Definitely, definitely.
I love that.
We definitely need a privacy alliance.
Anyone else want to piggyback off this?
I think someone else was trying to jump in as well.
Great, great points, Paul.
Yeah, no, I think't have real freedom of choice.
Here in the UK, I can tell you that people are hungry for blockchain, okay? Whenever I speak to
people about, oh, I work and live in this entire universe of where, you know,
I can transact across borders without, you know, the Bank of England snooping over my
finances, people's ears perk up.
And, you know, we're actually running a campaign we're calling Crip Towns.
We're actually doing our best to bring businesses and communities on board onto this technology.
And one of the things I'm advising different companies, including ADA on right now, is
to create dedicated, physical, your currency, token gated environments, okay, where businesses
are being attracted to build in your environments. So dedicated quick swap gyms,
dedicated quick swap supermarket and foods and things of that nature. And the reason for this
is because the average user who's not on X, who's not obsessed with the markets and tech like we are,
user who's not on X, who's not obsessed with the markets and tech like we are, they're
just looking for like, right, how can you, number one, preserve the value of what it
is I'm earning already?
And number two, like, you know, give me something that I don't already have.
And I think the advantage that we have like head over shoulders over our competition is that we have the ability
to create profound transparency with our systems. And transparency is more powerful than trust.
One is like, oh, Charles Hoskinson has this great line. It's like, we're going from like,
wanting to be corrupt, but you shouldn't to you can't be corrupt. It's impossible for you to be
corrupt. Right. And that's, I think, the powerful advantage that we have with blockchain. And, you know, like if we can really like
promote that across, you know, key industries that desperately need it. Oh, there's so
little room for, you know, corruption when it comes to food. Just like that's one thing that,
you know, my team and I were looking at very voraciously right now. We're trying to bring,
you know, bengali foods
on chain um in a sense uh giving you guys some alpha here but like you know it's like literally
like we're we're gonna have like zero room uh for suppliers to to mix in additives and and and do
all kinds of things to the to the food or whatnot and it's going to be recorded on chain as nfts and anytime
there's a discrepancy you know with with a you know with somebody who checks it or what have you
we we have the exact receipts we know who to go back to and who to potentially not work with in
the future if this goes on and it's it's a consistent thing and so i think you know having
And so I think, you know, having narratives like that and driving new commercial horizons, I think that makes us so powerful, especially when you add the layer of privacy with it that, right, like the rest of, you know, the governmental universe is not going to be snooping over your choices.
100% agree. We are, yeah, great, great points. And thanks for everyone that took,
you know, your time out of the day to share with us and kind of have this awesome conversation.
You know, we're kind of running up on three hours here. And uh rock is there anything that you want to ask or kind of
round off on uh if not i have a question for paul um but we got only about 15 minutes left in the
show yeah we want to read some comments from the audience as well but um i guess um you could ask
your question of paul while you're doing that If anyone wants to think about, if anyone has any, I mean,
this might be like the kind of answer question you may not want to answer
publicly, but if anyone has ever had their privacy invaded or violated by
anyone, government, family member, anyone,
like I think it's important that we illustrate examples of why privacy matters.
You know, we've been talking about this a lot today, but why does privacy matter? Have you
ever been hurt by privacy? Does anyone have any historic stories to tell about where privacy
really mattered? But if you want to ask, if anyone has anything on that, jump in. If we don't,
if you want to think about that a little more, ask. I do have one. Okay, good.
I'm glad you asked this question, Rock. Folks, please don't judge me. But this was at least
like five years ago. So this was during peak COVID basically and lockdown. So you know I was part of
the group here that was anti-lockdown right and so we'd basically gone to protests together and
ensuring that you know like businesses and you know schools and churches we can all open again
so at one point on my birthday i i basically invited all my friends uh to a to a party in
hyde park basically like like we're gonna enjoy ourselves and um what state you know
this is in the united kingdom uh so in london yeah Yeah. They were pretty, pretty aggressive on the lockdown stuff.
Yeah. Tell me about it, man. Like, we'll, we'll have a chat about this, you know, privately
another day, but I'll just very quickly to give you an example of what you asked for. So I invited
everybody over for a party, you know, all my, you know, protester friends and whatnot. And the police
kept coming, you know, in the middle of the night, breaking us up. Hey, you're not supposed to gather. Okay. Not more than six people. Like stupid shit. Right.
But anyway, like, so we, we'd go away, we'd come back and, and, and, you know, we'd party for
another hour or whatever. And then they'd come again. We'd go away. Now when it happened the
third time, okay, it's around 3 a.m. at night.
Whatever reason, I had the gall or the audacity to go up and speak to the police.
And so I was like, hey, guys, can you just let us be, all right?
Like, this is a ridiculous narrative, whatever.
And obviously, they didn't like that.
They got super anal about it.
And they arrested me.
So anyway, so they take me down.
Yeah.
So they take me down to the station.
Right.
And they search me and whatever.
And it was at that point, like, you know, my privacy got violated.
Like they, I'm not going to mention it here, but they found something that I shouldn't
have had on me.
And at that time, you know, I was looking at potentially like having to, you know, deal
with the consequences of that. But luckily I knew the law and they did not know ultimately my
identity. And I kind of just like got away with that. Like it was a close one. I don't have a
criminal record or anything, but it was a close one. And look, like, you know, I'm sure,
Rock, I'm sure you've heard of, you know, the guys, you know, I've had friends of mine being
arrested for Facebook posts, you know, of all things, you know, and there's a rape crisis here.
People comment about it and they get arrested, but the actual rapists don't. So that just,
you know, just for the audience there, you wanted an example.
This is how, you know, this is the direction, unfortunately, this society is heading. And,
you know, we're doing our best here as freedom fighters to fight against it. But man, like,
we need systems that ensure our privacy and allow us to enjoy ourselves, right? So,
Rock, there you go. That's an example. I think I got to chime in with one more alternative and I'll keep it real short because I know time is short.
But thanks for sharing that, by the way. Appreciate you.
I know, you know, this is a public space and, you know, maybe that could be embarrassing to some people.
But I mean, to me, those lockdowns were I don't know about in the UK, but in the US, surely unconstitutional and a huge violation of our rights.
And so, I mean, I don't know what you did exactly, but on the general premise, more
power to you.
Amen, brother.
Yeah.
It's unconstitutional for us as well.
We have the Magna Carta and a bunch of other things that ensure individual rights. All of that was being thrown out during that time. So no, completely agree.
Yeah, much love. Omnini Network, I think you were also going to chime in.
Yeah, all good.
And no worries. We got five minutes.
Standard co-host stuff. It happens with the Twitter spaces sometimes. I'm hoping that Rock can hear him. He might not be able to, but I'll just keep it real short. There's 147,000 LTC that's locked up in the last year and a half's time since MWeb started.
So I think there is a growing motivation for privacy that institutions can accept.
I think that there's an RPC project that I don't mean to show that also has an enterprise-grade privacy angle.
Say it. Say the name, actually. We want to shoutgrade privacy angle. Say it.
Say the name, actually. We want to shout
out privacy people.
It's just DRPC. Yeah, and we're fans of
MWeb also. Yeah. Excellent.
Sorry, Brian. I spoke
over you, man. My bad. I was just saying
we're friends of MWeb also, but
what was the name of the project?
DRPC. They've presented
at East Denver multiple times.
And at first they were trying to do consumer level, you know, to centralize RPCs that would help people obfuscate their identity and still be able to reach Ethereum without having to get flagged by Infura and, you know, all the folks who work with them.
But I think that there is a growing motivation, not just on the consumer side,
but on the enterprise side as well. And I'm just, I'm really excited to see that stuff evolve.
You know, there's a lot of development going on in the MWeb space, but it doesn't happen in a
vacuum. It happens in this context of the market of ideas about how we can, you know, do this stuff
more effectively. So appreciate you having us. I don't mean to wail on it too much, especially if
y'all are already familiar with MWeb.
Man, if we had more time, I would love to jump into that. Actually, we are
actually going to be announcing something
really big. You'll see some
PR coming out soon about it,
but we're going to be announcing something.
Lunar Digital Assets, our venture studio,
is working on a
protocol
that will be announced.
Let's just keep it under wraps.
Something will, I think we could say something will be announced at Litecoin Summit, and
it's going to be really big.
I'm pretty sure everyone will hear about it without even being in our circle.
We're all friends here.
You can share.
That's all we could say.
Yeah, good time, guys.
It's been an awesome three hours, and this has been a phenomenal conversation.
I'm a big proponent of privacy, and I love this discussion.
Brock, I think you wanted to read comments, or I'd like to shout out some people.
Yeah, yeah, shout out some audience members, and to shout out some people. Yeah.
Yeah.
Shout out some audience members and we'll do some comments,
but yeah,
I'm,
I love this,
this spaces.
This is like a great topic.
It's,
I know it's not super flashy or sexy or shiny necessarily.
It's not like your next 10 X,
you know,
shit coin,
but this is important stuff for the world. It's arguably a lot more important than your next 10x shitcoin, but this is important stuff for the world.
It's arguably a lot more important than your next 10x shitcoin.
So I think that's going to change.
It's going to change soon.
It's going to change.
I think privacy is one of the next big metas.
is one of the next big metas and especially once you know some of the big players start realizing
this and opening doors and trying to utilize these technologies i mean we just heard about
metamask and mihal you know earlier today it's just it's gonna be um just gonna be a
snowball effect you've been saying for a long time, Aztec, and I often quote you on this,
that it's not only that the governments
or it's more that the governments don't want it as much.
Maybe the politicians want some of it,
but governments, they prefer control,
but corporations do demand privacy.
And so not only will the corporations push the governments to allow some levels of privacy and privacy protocols, they will actually demand it.
They won't work on blockchain unless there are levels of privacy because they don't want to be front run.
They don't want everyone knowing what they're doing or what asset they're buying or what company they're investing in or what their next move is or getting front run on trades.
The institutions don't play that game.
So you've been saying for a long time, these institutions will demand privacy and there's going to be a ton of companies built around that.
And we're seeing it now.
And I'm in a lot of these conversations with different VCs, different entities.
It was just talking a team that's building one for Microsoftrosoft another one that's building one with ernest and young um actually it's nightfall which a lot of you guys may know
about but anyways yeah it's this is coming and it's great to see that instead of having to hide
under a rock the institutions are going to help us get some of this actually
100 and and unfortunately a lot of people don't see this because they might not be behind the scenes. They're not seeing like we have a really unique perspective where we're talking to, you know, thousands of projects and we see that they're already talking to institutions, large companies, governments, governments as well, especially, you know, now that the education
is getting better and the technology is getting better. So, um, you know, previously I, I just
was looking at, you know, the history of the internet and, and I was just, uh, kind of,
you know, projecting that it would, it would go, you know, similar web three would go similar.
And, you know, now working in the industry, I'm seeing that it's, it's already happening. And,
and I think that now, you know, it'll, it just goes even faster with all these, you know, superpowers trying to become the hub for crypto.
So yeah, definitely, Rock.
I wanted to shout out a couple of people here.
I see Amazing in the audience.
Luke, a good friend, a gaming buddy of mine.
Carbamontes from SquidGrow community.
Much love to the Squid grow people we missed them
today um i think tina was supposed to come but something must have came up um i saw nacho from
squid grow as well uh bet swirls with us allison rainbow long time listener good to see you with us um i see some bad kids nfts in the the audience so
we got a bunch of cosmos buddies here and um uh of course now my my screen's not letting me go down
there are some other friends that i saw but uh yeah much love to all of you guys and glad you're
here with us.
Rock, do you want to read some comments before we jump off?
Let's do it.
All right.
Blue said, CryptoRocky, greetings.
I know you said we can talk.
I wanted to follow up with you.
What was this?
Okay.
Yeah, DM me.
I'll check my messages.
Caruso says, I don't think privacy is as simple as it sounds.
There's a lot of back and forth, and it's pulling down a lot of things.
Some people no longer trust the privacy protocol because of their experience.
I'm ready to learn on this session.
Gooch says, it's never been a better time to get aggregated.
Put a purple square love that Victor Brown says privacy is really needed to be paid attention to let's hear what you guys got
for us Rainbow says low-key is privacy tech moving too slowly are our users just not demanding enough
what's holding us back man what a good question Rainbow I think it's it is that i put it on because a lot of these technologies have
been around for a while right secret network a lot of the projects we talked about in the spaces
but i think the users don't demand enough i think they would prefer in many cases convenience
and user experience over privacy and decentralization.
And that's unfortunate.
And we see some blockchains moving in a more centralized way
and people giving up their privacy.
And in many ways, that's not just with Web3,
but I mean, look at our mobile phones.
They see everything we do.
They know everything we think.
In many ways, they know us better than we know ourselves.
I mean, when someone asks me to name a song by a genre, if I say, like, what genres of music I'm into, and they say, oh, can you give me a couple songs or bands?
Like, my brain doesn't work.
I have to go look at my playlist that I've made over the years.
Or, like, I have to go to Pandora, and every song that comes on Pandora, I'm like, oh, my God, I love this song.
You know, Pandora knows me way better than I know myself.
And so we've given up a lot of our privacy for that experience.
We are crippled by technology and by these, you know, big tech companies that we give all of our data to.
Because, you know, for example, if you give all of your data to
Google, you get all of their tools for free. That's pretty cool. And is it worth it? I don't
know. I guess I'm using Google stuff. So I guess I'm making that decision. But yeah, I think a lot
of us just don't value privacy enough. And it's only when something really bad happens that we
all start to value it. So privacy technologies are kind of like insurance.
You, you build them and then once some bad stuff happens, then people are like,
oh shit, I need this insurance. That's, that's, I guess my little take on that. Um, let's see.
Um, scrolling back down, Leroy J says, privacy seems to be the next narrative.
Curious to find out what these OGs think.
Thanks, Leroy.
Always good to see you.
King Dank Kush says,
great space today.
Really insightful discussion.
Callisto says,
privacy talks,
exclamation,
supernal.
Wow. I don't know what this art is,
but it's actually really cool.
Are these like NFTs or something?
It has nothing to do with privacy,
I don't think, but looks super cool. Luke Burkeke it's probably a shill i'm guessing but uh
luke burkefield good to see you says happy friday and put a winking on soldier emoji or night emoji
uh paul prismo who is speaking here now uh said need to board the plane. Awesome. Oh, he just said two minutes ago. Awesome
space as always, Aztec and Rocky and the rest. Daniel Samuel Teams is locked in. Chicks Club
says Chicksulub says there's a good way to do sponsorship. You can have a couple clear spots
as part of a business model, in my opinion. Tasteful is the approach. Thank you. Appreciate
the comment on the sponsorship.
Yeah. I mean, our thinking is we've been spending a lot of money on this space. Like we've probably
spent easily, uh, over a hundred thousand dollars, uh, building this space up over the years and we
have never been paid anything for it. And, you know, when the market is really good, when it's
a bull market, we can afford to like take company funds from lda or you know
quick swap does a lot of the bd for this even polygon supports us um just by helping introduce
us to people and stuff and joining the show but we are spending a lot of money on the show and
we have to hold back on how much we can produce the show and like put time and effort into the
show because it's we don't make any money from it. We're just losing money. So I, I was pretty against sponsorships for the longest time, but I'm always like kind of the
stupid guy that doesn't take the money when I probably should. I mean, like many of you know,
I never, I gave all the tokens of quick swap to the community. Um, I've never sold a single token.
I never took a dollar of revenue from quick swap, even though we made a hundred million
in revenue in our first year. Um, I've never taken one single dollar. Uh, I'm always the guy that's kind of
dumb about that stuff. I live a simple life, but, um, I think to make the show better,
it might make sense to have some, some limited sponsorships by projects we believe in and done
in a tasteful way. But I appreciate that, that comment chicks club. Um, so BT Furfoot says science advances one funeral at a time.
I'm not sure what that's in reference to.
Sounds kind of cool.
I don't know what it means.
Maybe you could expand on that.
I'll come back and see in a second.
If you're listening right now,
Krasnel says meme coins on Paul or posted a retweet of someone saying of Jokey
says meme coins on Polygon
are starting to pump.
55% on KC, Crassnel coin.
It's time to start the meme coin season.
Good to see Jokey.
I know he was frustrated the other day.
Good to see him posting some positive stuff.
Red says,
the fuck you speaking about?
Wake up.
We have Monero.
Yeah, it's a good, good, uh, good point.
Monero has been here for a long time.
Uh, I love Monero.
I've been using Monero for a decade, uh, almost a decade.
Uh, the magician said legit legends going to legend.
I don't know if that was a joke in response to my US going to be USing.
And let's see.
Crassinal coin says pump it.
Web zombies waved.
PP tools says we've added the network to PP tools.
Okay.
Since network says good firework emojis.
Salatin says polygons.
V. M.
Zaman drop.
I think this is another language.'m sorry i don't know that
language um and uh okay that's good for now hey i just i have to shout this out this came through uh
the wire through uh watcher guru says uh justin 10 trillion asset manager BlackRock meets with SEC crypto task force to discuss staking, options, tokenization, and ETF approval standards.
I think this is really interesting because this is really bullish for ETH.
And, you know, a lot of us here are big on ETH.
But tokenization is going to be massive for mass adoption.
And then ETF approval standards, I think we're going to see a lot more ETFs approved in the next couple of years.
ETFs that give staking yields.
That's what I think comes from that.
ETFs with staking yields.
I agree. That would be staking. I agree.
That would be very sexy.
That's pretty cool, man.
But, yeah, man.
This was a good show, guys. It was fun.
Fun hanging out.
Much love, everyone.
Did you see Aztec?
BlackRock, Larry Fink,
said just recently
his newest update to people was that he's recommending for, I think it was for institutions.
I could be wrong on the exact wording, but it was something about he is now recommending a 2% allocation in Bitcoin.
Yeah, something like that let me find the exact quote but uh i mean larry fink is like one of
the biggest marketing teams for blackrock is like so marketing for crypto i mean the bitcoin etf the
blackrock bitcoin etf is the most performing etf in the history of etfs it actually did more growth
i think in the first like year than there was 500 other ETFs in the year that our Bitcoin ETF came out.
There was 500 other ETFs.
And I think the BlackRock Bitcoin ETF was more performant than all other 500 ETFs that came out that year combined in whatever they were.
I don't know what industry they were in.
It's insane.
BlackRock's going all in on this.
They see how powerful this is.
Yeah, yeah.
I have my reservations about BlackRock,
but I mean, there's nothing you can do
to stop any player from getting involved
and trying to push forward blockchain
and all these technologies.
But I mean, unfortunately, blockchain and all these technologies. But, but I mean, they're,
you know, unfortunately it is what it is. Like you do need some to, to get to the next level.
You, we kind of benefit from these guys with endless pocket books, being able to lobby for
us in a way or educate for us. Yeah. I'm also concerned, but I think overall it's
positive for us and it's what's needed for us to Trojan horse. I mean, I think a lot of people are
worried that the finance industry will take us over, but another way to look at it, the way I'm
kind of looking at it is we are Trojan horsing them. We are penetrating them, right? We penetrated politicians. It took
us, you know, a cool, all we had to do to get the politicians attention and to get rid of these like
anti crypto task force armies of Elizabeth Warren. All it took was we had to just donate
the same amount of money as all other industries combined. That's all we had to do. In the last election, I think it was between Trump and Kamala combined, the donations,
Bitcoin and crypto was 48% of all donations to the presidential campaign. Meaning you combine
military industrial complex, pharmaceuticals, real estate industry, manufacturing, agriculture, insurance,
every single industry in the world combined, we donated as much of all of them, 48%.
We're on the map now for sure. Yeah. We got the mic. We got the mic and we're not giving it back.
People think that they're going to take us over. I think we're taking them over.
That's a really good perspective.
That's true.
Or I'm wrong and they fuck us and this turns into...
No, no, no.
We got this.
Humanity got this, man.
We got this.
I really do believe in us and everyone that's building.
And I think we just need to work together more.
But, you know, I think we just need to work together more but uh
you know i think we got this all right guys what a wonderful day what a wonderful conversation
thank you everyone in the audience all you people out there that uh that attended
see norbert in the audience i know aztec shouted out a bunch of people but i see mwp i see kbot
a bunch of people but i see mwp i see kbot um giving hearts appreciate it victor uh swiss
fortress king dang kush rainbow um let's see who else could we shout out and valesk i see your
hearts uh song jam cromston um lalol sign donald howard sir bashararan, Josh Faceless, Kibitz, Usman, Miriam, Elijah Steele, Saffron, Jet Lawson, Mila Griffin, Melody Green, Leah Weston, Pilgrim G.
Cheers, guys.
Have a great weekend.
Anyone else on the panel?
Anyone want to say anything before we go?
Omniti, Prometheus, you guys are the final remaining soldiers on the panel anyone want to say anything before you go omnity prometheus you guys are the final remaining soldiers on the panel thanks for having me today and and great
discussion and really great points um everyone um uh yeah looking forward to the next one you guys
we we are going to rock this this is not uh this is not them penetrating us it's absolutely us penetrating them and um yeah just
um let's let's let's link up i can i can see us doing magic together yeah i like to be the
penetrator i don't want to be penetrated yeah let's definitely link up prometheus are you guys
in touch with anyone from our team
no not yet let's let's make it happen cool yeah we'll be at uh bitcoin vegas and litecoin summit and all that too so if you're out there it'd be great to chat darren could you um reach out to to Prometheus and make a group? Nope. Thank you.
All right, guys.
Have a good weekend.
Bye-bye.
Until next Friday.
Take care, guys.
Bye.
See you, Omniti.
Bye, everyone.
See you, Aztec.
Later, brother.
