Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
Japan Web3 Gaming 🎮
Recorded: Dec. 12, 2023 Duration: 1:03:30Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to this Web3 gaming space.
I'm Naomi.
I'm part of the Asta marketing team and here to facilitate the conversation.
And yeah, I think we might give it another minute, wait for people to drop in, and then
we'll kick it off.
But yeah, Jan and Shin, thanks for joining and being so on time.
I'm kind of not used to that for Twitter spaces.
Thanks for the invitation.
You hear me fine?
Because I'm not quite, you know, I don't know if this is a bug or not, but I don't see the
user interface that says, like, I'm joining the conversation.
You hear me okay?
Yeah, we can hear you just fine.
Okay.
Must be one of those things that disappeared since they renamed to X.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's probably it.
Yeah.
But so far, so good.
Yeah.
We'll just give it another minute.
And I think then we can kick it off with a round of introductions.
But anybody who has questions about Web3 gaming, Japan, feel free to just put them under our
spaces link.
And then we can pick them up directly from there.
And I'm sure our speakers will also be happy to answer questions about their projects.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe we'll get started slowly, but surely.
So, yeah, I think the best thing would be if we start with a bit of a background and introduction.
So, us there, of course, we are pretty big in Japan.
And we figured it's hard for people sometimes outside of Japan to understand what's happening
there.
So, that's why today we invited two amazing speakers who are very deep into the Web3 gaming
space and also involved in the Japanese markets to help us shed light on what's happening over
there.
And, yeah, maybe you want to go first and tell us who you are, what you do.
Sure.
So, my name is Young.
And I'm the co-founder of FunState Searching Lab.
So, we started to develop Web3, what we call lifestyle product.
So, we launched in the late of 2021.
So, the first product we developed is Steppen.
So, basically, at the time, basically being called move to earn.
And gradually, we sort of changed to more of a Web3 lifestyle product.
And after that, we created a range of product.
We created a DAX called Duo.
We created an NFT marketplace, more.
Recently, more has been trending up to be the number one training volume on Solana and
also number one training volumes on Polygon.
I think overall volume, we are ranked number three behind Blur and the OTX.
And also, concurrently, we are also making a Gat Zero, which is a Web3 strategic game.
And, funnily enough, we have the Steppen Genesis sneaker, the Morse sneaker training on number
one on Solana, and the Gat Zero coupon training on number one on Polygon.
So, the game is going to be live very soon.
We'll just finish our public testing.
Next year, we have several very exciting new things going to come up.
But I will mention that later.
So, yeah, that's it.
Nice.
I actually used Steppen in the earlier days when it was pretty new.
It was quite fun.
Yeah.
So, maybe we can tap into the entire move to earn and what it eventually became a bit later.
But, yeah, Shin, thanks for joining us.
Could you maybe tell us who you are and what you do?
Yeah.
Thanks for the invitation.
My name is Shin.
I'm a co-founder of Murasaki.
It's a gaming company as well.
So, right now, I'm based in Netherlands.
But our major user base is in Asia, including Japan.
So, we have, like, three products up and landing.
One is Cyberstella on Avalanche.
The other one is Dokyo.
It's an NFT collection.
Recently hit, like, the best trading volume over the past, like, 24 hours over Basie and CryptoPunks.
So, it's also on Avalanche.
So, and the other one is, like, we are building a fantasy sports actually on Asta.
So, it's going to be, like, announced, like, anytime soon.
But, so, fantasy sports, like, it's pretty famous.
Like, there's a pretty famous product called SoRare in France.
But, we are licensed by, like, one of those, like, major Japanese sports leagues and just building a fantasy sports product based on that.
And then, a little bit of our background is, like, we've been engaged in mobile gaming industry for more than 10 years.
So, like, me, myself, you know, just personally, you know, from internet media, my co-founder, Shusuke, is a founder of a company called Cookie Rappel.
Just been running, like, the top-grossing title in mobile gaming industry.
So, yeah, hopefully, like, I can provide, like, some insights.
The game, like, web-story gaming industry in Japan in general.
And the trend, you know, deep inside, as I'm Japanese, so deep inside of the consumer behaviors as well.
So, yeah, that's it.
Yeah, amazing.
Thank you so much for joining, and I'm sure we got a lot of insights with you, too, on this stage.
But maybe just to get some background on your journeys, because it's not necessarily obvious how people go from gaming to web 3.
If you can share if you've kind of been in gaming first and got into web 3, or what kind of career path you had that took you to this place.
That would be great.
And, yeah, Jan, if you want to go first.
Oh, okay.
I thought you should go first.
Okay, that's it.
I wasn't really a builder to start with.
I'm actually, you know, got in crypto by accident back in 2017.
And then I'm just basically being a digital trader and, you know, started to invest and created an investment company.
And, you know, we've done quite well.
So I wasn't really thinking of building anything, right?
I was thinking actually it was about to slow down a little bit.
And then I met the other co-founder, you know, Jerry, he basically built games.
So, I mean, I have some interesting ideas all the time, but I never really have the technical background to actually execute.
And where we find somebody that can execute is actually, you know, they can turn some crazy ideas into reality and do it quite well.
So, yeah, it's been like a pretty interesting partnership.
So, yeah, we still have our activity building, pumping out product and product features.
So, yeah, I mean, life sometimes is very curious that you can take your 180 degrees to something else.
I expect it.
Yeah, I think in crypto, maybe even more so.
I know many people who ended up here by accident.
So, yeah, Sin, how about you?
Yeah, well, actually, same as Yen.
You know, I'm not from, like, game industry.
Pretty much, like, I'm from, like, sports industry.
Like, before I'm managing this company, I was managing a football club in Belgium, which is totally nothing to do with it.
But because of the COVID-19, you know, all the, you know, like, spectators are shut from the stadium.
So that's why I managed to, like, issue something called Funtalken on Chile's platform.
So, like, before that, I was just investing in crypto.
But it was the first time doing crypto as a business during COVID time.
And then Shusuke, my co-founder, has been game producer, game planner, and the business owner as well.
And he has been doing, like, a mobile game for more than 10 years.
And then, well, we've been friends for many years.
And then when I went back to Japan, I met him saying, like, hey, why don't we just, you know, like, build crypto, like, game.
You know, like, build a game on blockchain.
That might be interesting.
That might be, like, a next, like, bigger thing.
Then, like, snapping comes and every other game comes as well.
So, yeah, that's pretty much the beginning.
So, yeah, for me, like, the game, I didn't have any idea.
But right now, it surprises me, like, you know, how underestimate the game producer kind of skills and knowledge and things.
Because, you know, well, there are only, like, a few people just make actually things happening.
So if you look at the Web3 gaming space, a lot of products promise to launch.
But, like, I see, like, only 20% to 30% are actually launching.
So, yeah, it's just, like, publishing and launching itself is, like, pretty precious.
Yeah, so that's where I'm coming from, like, where we are from here.
Yeah, so maybe we can just stick with that and talk a bit about the state of Web3 gaming.
I think, as you mentioned, like, a lot of the games that were announced never launched.
And maybe also because in Web3 people are so used to everything coming really fast and everybody has very short memory.
They don't think about the timelines it takes to launch, for example, a bigger game.
I think Illuvium now went live after, like, what, three years or so in the making?
So, yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts on the state of Web3 gaming or trends you're observing.
Okay, I'll start first.
You know, when I started trading crypto back in 2017, nothing was launched.
Period.
So, you just, like, the wildest idea, and then you raise some token, you do public sale, and that's it.
And now we actually see, you know, people launching a product.
It's, like, totally different, you know, when they back to only a couple years back.
So, I think it's still we are progressing to the right direction.
You know, back then there was, like, 0.1% shipping.
Now, when we talk about 20% or 30%, it's still significantly higher than before.
But, when we're looking at this, let's say, Web3 game or game 5, a lot of the product we're looking at, they are existing product in the Web2.
We just say, okay, let's just put NFT asset or a crypto token.
And I don't think that really works.
I always believe that the mechanic design native to the Web3 space is essential to success in this space.
It's like you're going to another place.
You want to eat your home country food.
Otherwise, if you're eating, let's say, if you're from Japan, eating, go to Italy, eating pizza every day, you're probably going to have a sick stomach.
Because you can't digest that much piece.
It's just that we always like to see what is comfortable.
But when you're designing products, we really need to jump outside of the comfort zones.
And I think this is also the case where many, many of the Web2 game designers, Web2 developers, come to the Web3 space.
They have more of a, you know, the thinking or the way they think back in the Web2.
It's like, okay, we should do things like this.
But in this space, everything is pretty chaotic, right?
Nothing works as planned.
And everything moves so fast.
So I think it requires a whole different skill set.
You know, in Web2, it's all about, okay, let's write a script.
Let's find somebody who can develop.
You know, you really are very heavy in graphics.
You know, but here, because we have the token, we have the NFT asset.
You know, people have been accusing that, yeah, GameFi, you know, the whole focus is on the financial part, not the gaming part, da-da-da-da-da.
But the financial part is what made cryptos.
We cannot deny that the financial part is the reason many people are in this space.
It's just that how we can balance the game and finance.
It's not never about, let's just focus on the game, let's focus on the finance.
We should focus on balance.
And the balance must be achieved by creating new things and new mechanics, exciting things.
That's how we can turn the flywheel.
Yeah, so that's awesome.
Yeah, I totally agree with many of the things you said.
Xin, how about you?
Have you seen any trends or observations to add to that?
Yeah, well, basically, I agree with you.
Well, I have, like, two different angles for that.
First of all, developing the game is generally underestimated by crypto founders.
So that's just one thing.
So, like, everybody is saying, like, hey, the game is, like, not interesting or not graphical enough.
So why don't we just make a AAA title or why don't we just make, you know, let's say, Web3 version of, like, Genshin Impact, for example.
But, like, they don't know, they're not from game producers, right?
So, like, they hire game producers and say, hey, here's the $10 million.
We are going to make Web3 Genshin Impact.
But they actually don't know, you know, that the cost to make Genshin Impact costs, like, $100 million and two years and a half.
That's a development period, right?
So, like, the reason why they're only, like, 20% to 30% actually launching, they're not producers at all.
And then underestimate the game development.
So, like, many, for example, influencers, KOLs, and gaming guilds started developing the game by themselves.
But, well, they're never going to be able to launch because, you know, well, like, they don't have co-founders like themselves.
Yeah, it's just one angle.
So, generally, like, the game development, the game producing is underestimated by crypto partners.
It's just one thing.
The other thing, because we're supposed to talk about Japan Web3 Gaming.
So, I focus on that topic.
So, well, there are a lot of, like, mobile game providers in Japan.
So, it's the second biggest market in the world in terms of mobile game.
So, that's why, you know, Japanese people generally spend a lot on gaming or, like, fan communities in general.
So, that's why, you know, in terms of, like, average revenue per paid user, Japan is the highest in the world.
So, this is why there are many startups, you know, became a very big company and looking into, you know, looking into new opportunities, which is Web3.
So, this is why, as Yon said, there are a lot of, like, companies, like, who are trying to tackle with the Web2 angle with the Web3 aspect, right?
There's not, like, there's not much thing, you know, like, additional values because it's Web3.
But, like, there are just, you know, like, there are formats in mobile games, right?
Especially in mobile games.
There are formats already.
So, that's why, you know, based on the format, they just add, like, NFC aspect or they just add, like, a fungible token aspect.
But that's it.
There's no other twist or, like, no, like, interest in, like, actual Web3 aspect of it, like, you know, which is basically, like, financing.
So, this is why, you know, the, you know, existing, like, players, like, Japanese mobile gaming providers kind of, like, stuck with the new angle, you know, which is Web3.
Because, like, they don't, because, like, people need a wallet, obviously.
So, they have, like, a higher child, like, and then there are more volatilities they cannot control.
So, this is why, you know, even if the product is launched, they got struggle because, you know, they don't have, like, ideas of taking the balance, you know, going into your...
So, yeah, this is my perspective, especially in, like, not only Japan, but Asian, like, Web3 gaming.
Even if you spend, like, $100 million to build one title, I wouldn't think a traditional, let's say, levering model can tolerate with the $100 million investment.
They cannot take it back.
So, yeah, so you definitely need, like, Web3 aspect of it.
But they don't know because they cannot, like, jump over, like, steps.
Well, yeah.
Well, maybe I talk too much, but, yeah, I'll stop here.
No, not at all.
I think it's perfect that you made a jump to Web3 gaming in Japan.
So, I was just thinking it'd be interesting to look at trends globally and see, like, maybe things are different in Japan.
I don't know if, Jan, maybe you have any thoughts?
Because I know that Stepin was also pretty active in Japan, but a bit later on.
So, you can share any insight from that.
Shin did cover a very interesting point because when we talk about game, you know, either we talk about, you know, desktop game or console game, you already are in, you know, like, AAA type of quality.
But when it comes to the mobile game, that's where we can say, you know, there's, like, a thousand, thousand indie sort of, you know, game makers.
That's where I think Web3 game niche is going to reside because we cannot take years to develop AAAs because the whole landscape is going to change.
Indeed.
Yeah.
But the issue is, if we release it on the mobile, we are looking at the crossroads.
You know, we're actually taking both, right?
So, we talk about a very regulated app store sort of launch.
Then everything has to be compliant to regulation, compliant to the Apple-Google rules.
And or we say, let's just go to, you know, the WebGL type of, you know, the browser type of game.
You know, totally not going to be under Google review.
You know, Google review, Apple review, that can take days or even weeks for them to come back and fix this or fix that.
So, you cannot control how frequent you update your content.
But if we talk about WebGL, you could do it any time of the day.
But then with the distribution channel of the app store, it's so easy to reach the user, right?
So, user can just download.
That's it.
So, we spent a tremendous amount of time and effort to make the Apple Pay available.
So, basically, people can buy NFTs in Stefan through Apple Pay.
Just double click and then you buy NFT sneakers.
That takes, like, almost a year or something, I think, to get it done.
And it is so many efforts to make the app store version.
And just looking at this now, if we're going to develop fast shipping products,
the WebGL might be another path.
But then we need to look at how can we, let's say, ensure the security of the user assets.
You know, the Apple, you have the decentralized wallet.
That's fine.
But then that also stops users.
So, they have to remember the C phrases.
So, you want them to not write down the C phrases.
You want them to really just put in their email and set a password.
That's it.
But then they still are trading NFTs or exchanging NFTs or minting NFTs.
So, that, I think, is the key choices, I think, now for all the game developers.
Not only in Japan, but also in the world.
Because, you know, when we talk about China, Japan, South Korea, the regulators are pretty strict.
So, you're going to have a hard time to release your product through the app store or Google app store.
Then, if you're going to release through the WebGL type of game, then how do we ensure the security?
How do we ensure the user experience?
Because, you know, you don't talk about, you know, the single browser page probably have a limited capacity.
How can you squeeze everything just under that capacity so that, you know, you don't crash the browser, right?
So, I think we are now at that crossroad, right?
Are we going to download the slow, regulative way?
We're all going to go down fast, but a little bit risky.
Maybe another question on that note is,
what do you think about distribution channels in general?
Because, of course, you mentioned the app stores.
And some Web3 games might not want to go down that route, right?
And I know, I think, Gods Unchained, they got to the Epic store.
But that's not really common for Web3 games.
So, yeah.
I mean, Epic store, it's just like, you know, Google or Apple.
So, you know, maybe on par or even, I would say maybe on par with Apple, Google distribution channels.
So, it really, no good answer for this.
We are also, we are always talking about our method options.
But method options, you're going to build enough infrastructure to allow method options, right?
So, we spend tremendous amount of time to sort out the fee of payment.
We still spend a tremendous amount of time to sort out the user onboarding experience,
giving you the example of Gas Zero, right?
So, it's a browser-based game.
So, you don't need to remember the C phrase.
You just set up your email, password, your training.
It takes a lot of work.
So, it's difficult.
I think when we talk about browser game, the distribution channel is nonexistent, right?
You have to do it yourself, you know, getting people to talk about it, getting really hot on the X, you know.
With Apple, you're probably just going to be sitting there, right?
People can download.
They can discover, right?
So, I think it's totally different.
Totally different.
So, I think you have to fight for the distribution when you go down to the WebGL password.
And you can afford to be a little bit relaxed, but also a little bit restricted when it is either Epic or Google or Apple.
And also, I'm not sure about Epic, but Google, Apple also take tax.
So, that part also has to be taken into consideration.
When people pay, they pay with tax.
So, I think there's no definitive answer.
Also, if we talk about the general picture, right?
In the past, I'd say three to four years, the Apple or Google normally are more relaxed in the bull market and very, very restricted in the bear market.
So, the timing of the bull market is also very important.
If you apply in the bear market, you may just get rejected, right?
So, but if you release in bull market, for example, you still need to keep the product and also comply with a lot of regulations.
So, yeah, sorry about I remember a lot, but there's no sort of, there's so many things to consider, right?
When you're doing the GPU, kind of, you know, when to do it, where to do it, how to do it, so many questions.
Yeah, so, in a nutshell, distribution is very hard.
Shin, do you have any thoughts on distribution as well?
Maybe something from eSports that's potentially different to the way it's done in gaming.
Yeah, well, when it comes to distribution, you know, I have several thoughts on this.
So, first of all, if you're ambitious enough to reach out to, like, every country, you know, with a decent size of investment, you know, so, well, they obviously take it in tax, but instead, they clear up the order, like, legal requirements instead of you, right?
So, like, because they do distribution on behalf of you, like, any, let's say, like, legal potential risks, you know, like, the obligation as a publisher, like, distributor, are kind of, like, managed by themselves.
So, this is why, like, they are managing a lot of, like, games and telling you your app is not allowed in, for example, Indonesia or, like, I don't know, in India because it kills cow, but it's for real, you know, like, depends on the image, right?
The certain, like, images are not allowed.
So, like, all those things, you know, like, managed by Apple and Google.
So, and then also, there are a lot of, like, browser games attracting a lot of players, right?
So, when it comes to Web3, for example, a fantasy sports product called SoRare, they have, like, you know, like, a million, like, MAU, even though they don't have app because they kind of, like, you know, kind of, like, not, like, 100% sure what if they get through the, like,
that's, like, through the exam, you know, so-called exam, you know, so-called exam, you know, by Google.
So, that's why they stay in browser.
So, the type of the games, you know, depends on the type of the games, like, distribution channels are different.
But definitely, like, if you're kind of like aiming for, like, you know, crossroads, as Yao said, like, a mobile, like, easy experience with something, like, you can casually enjoy.
Distribution, like, App Store or, like, Google Store as a distribution channel would be ideal.
But if you're looking for, like, somehow static experience, still, let's say, web browser would be okay.
So, like, a different distribution's got, like, different advantages and disadvantages as well.
And then when it comes to eSports, you know, talking about, like, a desktop or, like, console things,
well, it really depends, but high spec, like, high standard, like, resolution or graphics are required as well anyways.
So, that's why even though you pay some costs, you know, like, you better avoid browser because browser, like, depending on, like, the environment.
So, like, you have to be competitive.
So, like, this competitiveness itself is a marketing source.
So, that's why, like, eSports should be, like, paying some, like, taxation on Steam or Epic Store.
But, like, they have to secure, like, a proper working environment and installation as well.
So, yeah, I mean, that's my perspective on platform and distribution.
But also, talking about Japan, there are several platforms you can launch your game.
For example, DS Lite, you know, it's a full of, like, indies games.
But some indies games got, like, let's say, $5 million revenue a month, you know, which is pretty good for DS Lite.
It's, like, a browser base, but that you can reach out to, like, same kind of attributes.
And there are also, like, a DMM, like, DNA, GRI, like, all those kind of, like, different platforms.
And then you have to pay the taxes on, like, distributions.
But, like, since they have, like, a user base already, so you can reach out to, like, those, like, different user base.
So, when you talk about distributions, you can also think about, let's say, attribute or, like, what kind of, like, categories they are looking for on the distribution channel.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you very much.
That was pretty insightful.
And, yeah, I think sometimes, in general, Web3, distributing, building the product is one thing, right?
But distributing can be a whole different story.
So, it's always interesting to see.
And, yeah, we've got some questions from the audience as well.
And I think it's a good moment to get into that since we're on the topic of Japan and what's maybe different there.
And they're asking if you have any thoughts on how potentially Japanese and also, more broadly, Asian gamers are different, maybe, to, let's say, Western, American, European, LATAM, whatever you want to include in that.
Yeah, any experiences or thoughts?
I think, personally, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Oh, sorry, yeah.
Well, let me, so I'll go ahead, then.
Personally, let's say, well, I myself as a Japanese, well, there's not much, like, a difference, to be honest, but there's a trend, different trend.
For example, like, Korean, you know, Korean game players like to have more image of, let's say, actions.
So, Korean people, like, you know, they're more, like, Korean users when it comes to FPS, for example, you know, like, you know, fast-point shooter.
And because they, Korean people like to have, like, image of, like, a killing, you know, and then somehow, like, a zombie shooter as well.
But whereas, like, Japanese people, like, Japanese people, like, don't really prefer, let's say, the image of, like, you know, fighting or killing.
Like, but they just, like, invent Pokemon, you know, they like to have, like, a friendery image.
So, there are, like, a slight difference in creatives, like, they prefer.
But when it comes to, like, U.S., right, for example, you know, so they have, like, you know, they are excited by, like, AAA, like, kind of title, rather than, like, casual mobile games.
But, like, still, the casual mobile games, the market is super big.
So, I see, like, a...
I think he might have just dropped.
It's definitely...
Oh, here we go.
Okay.
Now it's worse again.
I went back.
Yes.
Really?
All right.
Yeah, go ahead.
I'll fix my headphones.
Yeah, let me...
Is it working fine now?
Yes, it's fine now.
Okay, yeah.
I'll switch to you for a while.
Okay, Jan, then you can go ahead and tell us about your thoughts on the different types of gamers.
Shin was mentioned in Korean.
So, when I first think of Korean gamer, I always think of, you know,
StarCraft or WarCraft, you know, very high, what it's called, you know, the click per second type of thing.
You know, you have to, like, master in the reaction and multitasking, you know.
Yeah, cookie clickers.
Yeah, cookie clickers.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's right.
But I think it doesn't matter of what kind of the game genre, right?
So, yeah, either it's like, you know, like StarCraft or Japan or China, they have, like, localized games.
I think the whole East Asia is more prone to the strategic type of games.
You know, the sort of, you have to plan and you have to sort of plot sometimes.
And then you're taking advantage of your adversarial and then you win.
So, all the games, especially in this level, are very competitive and also very, very male-driven.
So, you talk about, like, over 90% male players.
And sort of SLG type of game.
I think it's one of the very strong performing, let's say, category.
I think that's also one of the main differences between, I think, the East and West.
I think that that's for my own observation.
And which sort of was the reason that we developed a strategic game plus a social game.
To cater the East Asian area.
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
And, yeah, it's interesting because, of course, crypto is also, like, 90% male, right?
So, you've got a good overlap there.
But, yeah, maybe moving on.
Of course, Japan is very well known for all of its game studios.
But we haven't really seen, like, a successful Web3 game from it.
Do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
Or maybe it's just a question of time?
I did briefly, not briefly, I think I've been observing on the Japan market, not the consumer market, but also the market for the founders or startups.
Plus, I think, a lot of the big corporations.
I think the whole Web3 startup requires a totally different skill set for the founders.
Meaning that you're probably not necessarily to work in a big corporate to get your skill in a particular area.
You want to be more of a journalist.
You want to be, sort of, I can do anything, everything, rather than I'm expert in, like, a very narrow area.
And also, the whole space is moving very fast.
I think when we talk about crypto startups, I think not only in Japan, we also see this in South Korea and also China.
And the founders suffer from more of a language barriers.
That's, again, I think very true when we talk about, like, native Japanese, Chinese or South Korean developers.
They can communicate well in the native language.
But when you talk about, you know, talk about English or, you know, maybe even a third language, they are stuck.
And also, another interesting observation was, many, many, many of these founders have a very technical background.
And you create the issue that, when we talk about Web3, right, it's all about community or about, like, just launch the game or launch the roadmap first,
and then we create a community, and then we build as we go.
And that requires you to engage with the community, talk to the users.
You require different skill sets.
You no longer sitting from the computer designing every day.
You need to also talk to the user, talk to the, you know, key players and gather information, interact.
So, require totally different skill sets.
You probably need to multitasking a lot.
You have to build, you have to build, well, you need to build a product, well, understand how crypto work inside out, tokenization, you know, token mechanics,
and also social skills, plus English.
I think it's pretty hard, right?
So, and also, when we come with the whole, I think, East Asia type of education, right?
So, we always, like, let's just, you know, focus on the math or biology or physics, you know, everybody's studying, like, science, right?
STEAM science or ITs.
So, we sort of think like engineer, and, but, when we come down to actually promoting a product, a lot of things don't really work when you are talking logically, right?
It's all, you know, it's all about emotional, right?
It's all about, you know, getting the rapport with the audience.
I think a lot of the founders start off as a very technical person, with language of barriers, and focus on, you know, tech, while having a hard time to get initial tractions.
When you don't have initial tractions, everything's hard.
Sorry, I mumbled a little bit more, sorry.
No worries.
I think that was a very good summary of one of the biggest problems I think we have in Web3 often is that people who run the projects think that if you just build it, they will come, and often that's not the case anymore.
I think sometimes not even an airdrop will make people come, or at least come back.
It's an ultimate impossible triangle, right?
So you talk about, like, you know, like, like, like, technical skills, English skills, and maybe some social skills, right?
You have to master three, but most people master two, then we have trouble.
Well, it's like the Web3 founders' trilemma.
You can only have two.
I guess that's when you need to know when you need to hire somebody who can complement the third thing.
And also, you need to have sufficient, you know, Web3 experience or crypto experience as well.
Yeah, for sure.
I think, Shin, you also wanted to say something on the topic of Japan not having really excelled at Web3 gaming yet.
Well, like, I totally agree.
Like, you know, I hope I speak English just fine.
But it's been 10 years, like, I started outside of Japan.
And, you know, what I found is, you know, well, there are similarities between the founders and so-called, like, big companies right now.
But back when, 20 years ago, they're, like, they're just small startups and a bunch of small startups.
So they have been building, like, games on feature form.
You know, they're not, like, even iPhone still coming up.
And then, so at that time, they have been criticized, you know, by console game producers because they are, like, they're already rich game coming out and saying, these are not games, you know.
But, you know, gradually, you know, the platform has grown, then they become, like, a, let's say, mobile game, like, startups.
And then, like, when the company becomes big, like, they've got to be restricted.
But, you know, the issues with, like, you know, not only Japanese, but Asian founders, like, you know, especially, like, if they are, like, big companies, like, trying to come into, like, Web3 space.
They understand from their perspective or past success examples only, but not looking at, like, new aspects of Web3.
So that's why, you know, there are a bunch of, like, NFT projects, like, available by, like, big companies like Seagab, Square Enix.
But, you know, our NFT projects, like, has, you know, well, like, 10 times more volumes than theirs.
But the reason is just only one thing.
We are community builders, like, not, like, developers, like, not really, like, developers.
So from my perspective, like, especially, like, Asian founders should be just, like, shifting into kind of, like, more community building roles.
Like, when it comes to founder, like, social aspect is very important because, like, people require transparency.
So, yeah, I mean, that's my perspective where, you know, it's not, like, directly connected to the reason why the, like, Japanese projects are kind of, like, not failing, but they're sort of, like, smashing it.
But, yeah, as part of, like, reason, you know, that the cruelty of founders, like, misunderstood.
And also, they somehow have, like, successful buyers from the first example, like, they succeeded 20 years ago.
Yeah, do you think it's maybe because they're kind of used to top down, like, here's this game, please play.
And in Web3, maybe you have more of an aspect.
I mean, it depends on your setup, right?
But where community members actually have active input, and that might be a hard transition.
Yeah, that's true.
Like, I mean, you know, well, traditional founders think they can control phenomena, but I think the community builder type of founders, well, they intentionally, like, lose the bad control and then try to make the events or, like, let's say, like, social events, like, happening on autonomous basis.
So, that's probably, like, good much with crypto.
But, well, you have, like, a more network effect when you're not, like, really organizing everything, but, like, community members are organizing by themselves.
So, this is kind of, like, an example.
So, I think not only, like, talking about Japan, like, because, yeah, as you say, like, they're used to, like, traditional, like, top down type of, like, hey, here's a paper, you can build that.
And when you release it, like, everybody's going to play.
But, you know, community builders, like, listen to, like, you know, basically listen, but, and understands, like, the market trend and then trying to deliver the product based on the market perspective.
So, yeah.
I actually remember when I went to the WebEx conferences, I've introduced several games that have been doing quite well locally in Japan.
But then, I think, another issue with Japanese games is that the local market might be good enough for them.
And maybe there's a lack of incentive to turn it into more of a globalized games.
So, that might be another sort of reason, you know, when we talk about, say, any of the, like, native Webster games, right, you want to say, okay, global reach, right, global dominance, something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's, that's kind of true, because, well, as I explained, like, Japanese people spend a lot, and, you know, average revenue is, it's kind of, like, hidden, a very high rate.
And, yeah, sort of, like, you know, Japanese market, you know, not only about, like, Web3 or gaming, you know, like, Japanese market is too big to go outside of Japan.
So, that's, that's probably, like, a biggest barrier, preventing, like, Japanese people from going overseas, you know, in general.
Yeah, well, that's, that's, that's so true.
So, that's why, like, every founder is, like, focusing on Japan when those, when they don't speak, like, non-Japanese languages.
So, that's, that's, that's very true.
Yeah, I actually...
It's very much...
Oh, sorry.
Just one more thing.
It's very much what is called, what we call, like, a pathway dependency.
So, if you success, because you're doing certain things, you are totally dependent on the same pathway to success over and over again.
So, if you are successfully developing, like, certain genre of indie games, you're going to do it over and over again.
And then, you probably are not looking at, you know, other areas, let's say, even the Web3 areas.
I've seen that the NFT has been adopted in several of the local Japan games, where token been adopted, but it's just NFT asset, right?
So, you know, people really don't trade it or flip it.
People just use it.
And I think it's totally different way of, you know, designing, you know, the NFT nomics or tokenomics, you know, compared to what we're looking at more of a global type of a project.
So, I think it's a different way of thinking.
Maybe this will change in generation.
Maybe the new era generation of Japanese players eventually become game developers will change it.
But it's going to take years when they are graduating, get experience, and then start building a product.
Well, and maybe by then the Japanese spending power has shrunk enough for them to have to go global.
You never know.
But, yeah, I think that was interesting that you brought up NFTs as well, because I think even in Japan, we see different attitudes toward them compared to, like, in the Western media, at least.
It's often something, like, pretty negative.
And in Japan, it's, like, all of these big corporates, they will distribute, like, NFT stamps to people.
I don't know.
Do you think that's maybe helpful if somebody wanted to build a game in Japan or, yeah, just interesting to know for them?
You mean using NFT to build games?
No, I mean, the general attitude towards things like NFTs in Japan seems to be a bit more open than outside of it.
I don't know if you experienced the same thing or...
Well, the fan community in general is quite active in Japan and Korea as well.
So, like, NFT is, like, working as a fan community rather than, like, NFTs themselves.
You know, like, when people talk about NFTs, like, mostly people talk about floor plies or, you know, whatever it is.
But, like, only Japanese people, like, talk about, like, how active the community is.
And then somehow this kind of represents the, like, how active the fan community is as well.
So, I mean, there are, like, two different sides, like, aspects.
The reason why we launched Tokyo outside of Japan with, like, Japanese concept is because we wanted to, like, aim for, like,
top project and in order to aim for, like, top project, like, we need to talk about pricing.
But Japanese people, contradictory, like, don't, like, don't much, not much like to, like, talk about pricing.
But instead, like, they talk about how active, like, how interesting the community is, like, how, you know, what kind of, like, future perspective they are looking at, you know, who are the founders and all those things instead of just pricing.
So, that's probably, like, that's probably, like, the biggest difference.
And then I don't think this particularly helps for builders to launch in Japan.
But, you know, like, things like Gas Hero or, like, things like the game titles who's pushing, like, Intel Parabetic or, like, EVM, for example, you know.
Well, that might be interesting because everybody has the NFTs they like.
And if, like, if, like, someone can, like, you know, everybody's building, like, you know, like, multi-NFT functional games and so on, then, you know, if they are going to be introduced in Japan, that might be, like, very interesting.
But I don't, yeah, I wouldn't see, like, direct collection, to be honest.
I think NFT is a very effective, let's say, filter and identification tool.
It will put people very easily into categories.
And then they say, okay, they identify, okay, I'm, let's say, my spirit animal is, for example, cat.
And I see other people wearing cat NFTs.
It's all the same kind.
And I can talk to them.
And there's common topics.
I think that is the whole reason I said NFT suddenly become the thing back in 2021.
So it's still, I think, very much the main case if we talk about PFP-style NFTs.
And also in the case of Gatsir, for example, when I designed the 48 different characters, I also referred to different cultures, different religions, different countries.
And to make sure that people can have something to relate to.
I was proposing this, actually, to our team, that we should just get 48 people to role-play each hero on X.
And then people can follow their favorite heroes.
And then they can have some sort of a hero's world or interactions.
Because it is the social part that bind people together.
And NFT, I think, is just the early talking stick to identify who can I talk to and who I feel close with.
So I think it's a powerful tool.
And if you can have a wallet to receive the NFT, and if you can display it properly, and we use it as sort of a conversation starter.
And then we can get people to buy more and create more community and know more people and make more friends, basically.
I think that's the whole point when you talk about WebStream, right?
It's not about you talk to your neighbor or your own circle.
It's really to talk about a stranger you may never know.
I think that's the power of WebStream.
It's also the best utility, right, you could have if you actually make friends, because you started talking to each other, because you share interest in the same NFT collection.
I think it's also social signaling, obviously, when people use their PFP as, well, their NFT as PFP.
It says something about them, right?
But, yeah, I think we're running up to the hour, so it'd be great maybe if we can close with any recommendations you have for people that are currently exploring Web3 Gaming in general, or also related to Japan.
Like, any ideas, recommendations, you can also feel free to share, where people can learn more about what you do to this space.
Take it away.
Okay, all right, I'll go first.
I mentioned this many times that, you know, being in the crypto cycle for, I think I went through two full cycles.
And I always feel that, you know, I understand how cycle work is very important.
Because releasing the game in the bear market probably will be the worst idea.
But you need to identify when is the bear market.
I think that requires a bit of experience.
That's number one.
And also, number two is, I feel when people talk about, say, oh, we're going to build, let's say, the Web3 version of Pikachu, sorry, Pokemon, Web3 version of GTA or whatever.
That's always feel like a bad idea, because you can never be, you know, the Pokemon, you can never be the GTA, right?
So, and many of the ideas from Web2, when we translate into Web3, it just doesn't work.
I always want to create native product that's suitable for Web3.
I think that's more making sense.
And that is when, because when we talk about building great product, right?
So when we talk about, okay, let's onboarding Web2 to Web3.
I think the process should be, you're building a product that's so native to the Web3 people.
They just love it.
And because they love it so much, they suddenly talk to their Web2 friends.
This is like a spillover effect, you know.
It's where you saturate the Web3 space market, and then you will get Web2 market.
It's never worked in reverse.
You're never going to get Web2 people to Web3.
It's much easier.
You just get Web3 people excited.
And then they will talk to the Web2 family or friends and get your people onboarding.
Then the third thing is when we talk about having this spillover effect, we need to think how we can scale.
Because if we are building a product for 100 people, can we scale it to 1,000, can we scale it to 10,000, 100,000 million, for example.
So the product category has to be big enough to allow you to grow.
So to find this particular niche or particular, maybe a new direction, it's going to take a very long time.
I think when we first designed Steffen, we said, oh, just move through.
But then when we started looking at, okay, what else we can build, I think we had trouble for over six months.
We cannot identify any single new direction that are big enough and also new enough.
We just can't find it.
And then we're looking at, oh, my God, it's really difficult.
But if we can spend enough time planning before just go there and do it and hoping for the best, I still prefer that we plan it.
We plan what kind of new direction, new feature it's going to build and how you're going to build the token on top of it.
And you're going to pick a time to release a product that's going to pick an uptrend of the market.
And then you're looking at how can I localize into new region.
So I think that's the four, I think, important aspects of building Web3 products, especially Web3 games.
Yeah, thank you so much.
And everybody, please give him a follow.
And yeah, Shin, how about you?
Yeah, so the first thing is, you know, the very important thing is, like, talk to actual people who are building.
When you listen to those AMAs, like, people got, like, a different perspective as well.
So it's very important that, like, in Web3, well, you can take, like, you can take the first source of the information, which is very important.
So this is also inspiring, like, like, where the project goes and where the market trend goes, like, how they think about the market.
And so it's very important that, like, you have to listen to, like, a game, like, not only games, but, like, builders, like, how they are, like, what they are looking at with their future perspective and all the other things.
The second thing is, you know, understand the market as well.
So this is more to do with the builders.
But the Japanese market is obviously different from Korea and China or the rest of the world and U.S., even Europe as well.
And then if it's Spanish-speaking region, if it's, like, French-speaking region, the approaches are all different.
So this is why I feel anxiety when Japanese game founders are talking about, like, the so-called global market.
But there's not, like, a global market.
When you zoom in, you know, there are, like, Korean, Chinese, Spanish speakers, French speakers, like, English speakers, like, India.
Like, all these markets are different.
So, like, when you translate your app and then just, you know, distribute it to, like, those regions, doesn't mean you can reach out to those regions in a real sense.
So that's the second thing.
So the third thing is, like, you know, I observe, like, many leaders, you know, don't have the knowledge about mechanism.
Jan also mentioned that, like, you know, they need to understand crypto as well.
But the most important thing is, like, you know, sometimes, like, they don't research by themselves as well.
So, you know, it's very important that, like, understand their cycle, as you don't say, and then mechanism.
And then, you know, like, the why the trading volume is declining or increasing or why, you know, why all the exchanges got, like, a deficit as well.
But, you know, there are certain exchanges doing well and all those things.
Because when you understand the mechanisms, you can take advantages.
But mostly, it requires, like, talking to people, like, talking to actual people who are building.
So, yeah, that's everything for me.
All right.
Thank you both so much.
I think it was a very insightful space.
And, yeah, it was also recorded so anybody can listen back to it.
And, yeah, thanks, everybody.
And see you again for the next one.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
Host
Astar Network
from
Astar
