Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everybody on the spaces.
Thank you very much for joining us today.
We're going to give people just another one or two minutes to join the spaces before we
get things started, so just bear with us one minute.
Okay, let's jump right into this.
So first things first, welcome everyone and thank you for joining us today on what is set
to be a really insightful spaces with two of the fastest growing layer one blockchains
So yeah, we're very excited to be having this talk.
Obviously, 2023 has been a pretty incredible year for both Injective and Kujira.
We've both seen very rapid growth as ecosystems and look, 2024 is poised to be an even bigger,
even better year than 2023 was.
This is not the only thing that the two of us have in common, as we've both decided to
opt for an on-chain order book style of decentralized exchange, with Finn being Kujira's
and Helix being Injectives.
And this will obviously be the main topic of discussion for today's spaces.
But first, let's obviously just start off with some introductions into who we are privileged
to have on the spaces today.
And perhaps it's useful to know a little bit about their role within the business too.
So we'll kick things off with Helix if possible.
So just yeah, let us know a little bit about yourself before we get into the meat of
Well, first off, super excited to be joining this space and speaking with, as you just
noted, kind of, you know, one of our best kind of partner projects and the team that
Okay, maybe we'll get started first and we'll see if there's any issues on the audio side
I'm going to do the social media side of things for Kijira, but I'm also part of the
cross-chain protocol and liquidity.
The strategies that we run on both.
Sorry, apparently, apparently you guys can hear them.
I'm going to I'm going to just jump out of space and jump back on a second.
Okay, let's get started again.
Helix, did you want to introduce yourself?
Yeah, can you hear me on your side?
Or can I leave the speakers here on your guys' side?
Well, first, I want to kick off and say thank you to the entire team.
Well, first, I want to kick off and say thank you to the entire Kijira team for hosting the
As noted, just before there, we're super happy and excited to be building the future
of what we see as finance in terms of kind of on-chain decentralized order books.
In terms of personal introductions, I'm Cooper.
I initially joined the Injective Labs team just about two years ago, and I kind of
oversee all different forms of business and partnerships, and more recently on the
institutional side of onboarding a lot of the different market makers onto our exchange.
More recently, I've worked on kind of building out the future roadmap for a lot of what we're
excited to launch in 2024 on the Helix side as Helix continues to evolve and grow into
its own product and project itself.
So that's a little bit on me, but really excited to get on and into kind of how order books
are the future of DeFi more generally, and kind of so exciting things that we have coming
And yeah, we're very excited to hear about the 2024 roadmap later on today.
So thanks for that introduction.
Yeah, as I rudely interrupted before, but my name's KP.
I do more of the social media side of things on Kujira, but also the cross-chain protocol
So our arbitrary liquidity, our optimism, these kind of things, I run some of those.
I've also founded Kujira Academy, which deals with just getting the community more involved
in Kujira itself and getting them to contribute meaningfully to all of the things that we're
And I'm going to pass on to Hans now.
Yeah, for those that don't know, I basically co-founded Kujira and book after all the technical
bits that you don't see, really, I guess the easiest way to summarize it.
And moving on to Dan, please.
It's great to be here with Helix and the wider Injective team.
I help with business development and growth as it relates to Kujira, so help onboarding
with new protocols looking to build on Kujira, help with, advise them through their process
and some of their, connect them with different builders throughout the ecosystem, and more
generally kind of help with a lot of different things, including Kujia Academy and our ambassador
program throughout the network.
Thank you very much for that introduction, Dan.
So yeah, now that we've obviously introduced everyone as individuals, I think it's probably
important that the audience gets to know Injective and Kujira more holistically before
we go into obviously the nitty gritty of all the book decks and why we've both chosen
So I'll pass the microphone back over to you guys from Helix.
Could you just tell us a little bit about Injective as a whole and the role of Helix
within the ecosystem, and perhaps just what makes you unique with Encryptor?
So Injective has a quite interesting story, and that's one such that the initial founding
team set out to build the decks to solve all of kind of the issues, you know, several
years ago, probably think five, six, seven years ago now, to solve all the issues that
we were seeing with regards to Uniswap and everything happening on ETH, high gas fees,
MEV attacks, all these different types of kind of technical attack vectors.
And they decided to kind of take Cosmos SDK and go down this app chain route to build out
And in doing so, they kind of built this core level exchange module into the chain itself.
And about, you know, to speed things up, about two years ago, the team made the decision to
enact Cosmos and smart contract architecture onto the chain, and pivot from just being
kind of this one use case decks app chain, to being a blockchain optimized for finance
based applications, they could all be serviced from the same central limit order book liquidity.
And it was a vision that personally, I, you know, just Cooper, he just introduced himself
could kind of, you know, see it as I worked previously on kind of with the team and on
projects related to serum in the Solana ecosystem, where effectively, you have all these different
apps within an ecosystem, and they all roll down to some extent to the central limit
order book and liquidity, you know, within that order book.
And you know, for instance, right, a lending protocol can only set its caps and kind of
its risk ratings, relative to how much liquidity exists on that central limit order book,
because if if they have to process the liquidation, you know, they have to keep all the the pool
And now kind of to pivot over, you know, so along that entire time, Injective itself was
an exchange on the perp spot side, and now kind of we're launching some interesting
products moving forward that we'll touch on later.
But the decision was made, you know, previous to me joining to spin that decks out into
Helix itself, and kind of this past year, Helix has kind of, you know, really brought
on its own team, several new team members on the product and technical side, as well
as you know, me and some others on both the marketing and business side of things to really
expand out kind of the product offering, the UI offering, and kind of the liquidity
So that's a little bit of kind of a story in terms of kind of what Helix is and how
it has gotten to, you know, where it is in terms of what I think makes Helix different
from your normal order book decks, is that kind of there are relationships and partnerships
in place with some of kind of the largest on chain liquidity providers that you can think
of and some exciting announcements and partnerships coming very soon that are kind of in motion
right now that will bring kind of best in class liquidity and what I mean by that is,
you know, the availability for users to come on and open positions as large as they'd like
with as least slippage and as close to kind of orders top of book or mark price as possible.
So that's one big differentiator.
And then on top of that, I think it's important to call out and to note that there's several
new liquidity profiles entering our order book.
So we've seen Black Panther, this protocol that had come over from Terrell launched these
different types of grid trading vaults, looping vaults, spot market making vaults, et cetera.
And in addition, we're excited for the launch of Mido, Elixir, and other protocols that will
also be, you know, able to provide these different forms of liquidity profiles across the order
Lastly, I think it's important to note that, you know, there are several new markets and
different types of products coming through Injective.
So over kind of Q4 of last year, we launched our first pre-launch perp markets and we
plan to launch, you know, some of them potentially even as early as next week, some new markets
We've been playing and playing around with some different types of, you know, stable
coins or FX that could come on chain.
So a lot of exciting things in the coming weeks and months on the Helix side of things.
I think that there's a few competitive differentiators, but at the end of the day, and also I think,
you know, to call out one of the other things is that trading bots were a huge hit in Q4.
So there's spot grid trading and perp grid trading available, you know, in trading bots
directly through Helix's UI itself.
So a lot of different things to happen here today, but those are just a few to call out.
Yeah, thank you very much for that answer.
It was interesting to talk of obviously the grid bots and spot and perp trading that you're
trying to encourage liquidity in that way.
And we'll come onto that later as well.
And it's, yeah, it's not at all surprising to hear that you as a team are expanding as
well, given the growth that you've seen in 2023.
On Kujira's behalf, I'd obviously like to bring Dan up to talk about just Kujira more
holistically, and then perhaps Hans is more suited to talk about what makes Fin differentiated
product to other on-chain order book decks as well.
So we'll start off with you, Dan.
Yeah, just a quick intro to kind of Kujira's history for kind of some of the folks here
who might not be super familiar.
Kujira was really born, the idea was born out of kind of an event that took place in
May of 2021, where there were massive liquidation cascades on the Terra protocol, and the price
And a lot of folks had their assets liquidated.
And these assets were not picked up by most of the users, they were picked up by an elite
group of botters who had advanced software to pick this stuff up, advanced botting software
And that's kind of how Kujira was born.
The idea was to equal the playing field and allow kind of normal everyday folks to kind
of bid on liquidated assets and have a shot at capturing some of that value.
And that led into kind of Fin, our on-chain order book, which was the first decentralized
on-chain order book that was originally built on the Terra blockchain.
And then once that was launched, six weeks later, once that collapsed, we built our own
And that's kind of the story behind Kujira, and that's kind of how we got going.
And today, really what we stand for, and I think how we're quite differentiated, at
least on an ethos level, is we really try to build products that everyday users can use.
Ease to use is a very big part of kind of the design philosophy and kind of the way
And we really try to make it so that anyone can come in and execute a strategy and quickly
get up and running and hopefully make some money.
Brilliant, yeah, thank you so much.
I would like to echo that as well in the way that we've built a lot of our products with
sort of seamless and frictionless access to these DeFi primitives is something that we
certainly stand for and something that we try to be very open, transparent, and honest
about throughout our entire lifetime, with Orca being obviously a massive advocate of
that, just giving people access to financial tools that are usually quite difficult to access.
But yeah, please, Hans, do take away and let us know what makes Spin, what is Spin's USP?
Why are we differentiated products, perhaps?
Yeah, I mean, all the books themselves are already a differentiated product in the on-chain
Preaching is converted here, but when you look at the architecture of a uniswap protocol,
like an AMN thing, you can only ever trade your counterparty as always that liquidity pool.
And so the only way you can execute an effective trade is by having huge amounts of liquidities
to sat there and tell somebody what's going to happen.
It's either, you know, it can be anybody.
It can be the likes of both, you know, have this kind of on-chain market making algorithm,
or it can just be a regular person.
So somebody puts in a cell for a thousand.
Do you want to buy a thousand?
You get as a representative of this trade.
So yeah, I mean, specifically about what makes Spin unique is to echo Dan's comments
about that kind of the fairness and providing opportunities to everybody.
That's really kind of, you know, bring that to spin as well.
It has the fair distribution algorithm.
So you can't, you know, you don't get front run.
If you're able to order at a price, and that price gets hit, and then you get an equal
distribution, fully on-chain, not cranked.
There's a lot of order book style interfaces, which will just deposit your funds
somewhere else, not even in a book.
And then when an AMN gets to the right price, it gets executed at which point a
book gets to decide which of the five orders at that price they want to execute first.
So, you know, there's no guarantee of that happening.
And we've also, you know, getting into the weeds a bit, but achieved a one complexity
So you have a million orders at a specific price point, and if that price gets hit,
you know, the thin carriage on chugging doesn't even notice.
Thank you so much for that.
Now, obviously, these order book DEXs are pretty integral to both of our ecosystems.
It's the main decentralized exchange to both of them.
And as you've sort of touched on as well, they are relatively,
well, not as dominated in the space as AMMs are.
And I think it would be interesting to hear from both of you, but we'll start with
Helix, why you chose to begin with, to go with an on-chain order book DEX itself,
over an AMM, and perhaps some of the advantages that you see
that order book DEXs bring over a traditional AMM.
And it's quite interesting, because kind of based on that, I would love to discuss
with you guys, kind of the future of what we see kind of coming to fruition.
And that's like AMM plus, like AMM Vault plus central and order book,
which is quite interesting.
But yeah, to dive into it, you know, I think AMMs are quite unique and quite
novel and really can be, you know, interesting in terms of finding price
discovery for new and bespoke, very liquid asset classes.
However, in, you know, the real world of the New York Stock Exchange,
all the way down to things like Binance, I think it's pretty straightforward that
essential limit order book with market participation and real liquidity
is always going to be a superior environment for kind of the trading of any potential,
you know, any mature asset.
And obviously, you need those market makers really there to provide that liquidity and those,
you know, users placing limit orders, as noted, as opposed to kind of this pool
of massive assets there in a big way.
And I think, like, in terms of the long vision, the long goal,
I think that Hans really just brought it up in a great way.
It's like no real mature asset class, in our opinion, will ever have a world in which
there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars sitting idle on a pool,
just there to, you know, enable to facilitate a swap.
Where the believers in kind of this order book or marketplace mechanism
where, you know, you're matching a buyer and seller, you know, in our case fully on chain.
So I really think that the capital efficiency aspect of that cannot be stressed enough.
But again, I do think that there are definitely, you know,
large benefits to kind of a lot of different automated and market maker
kind of designs and mechanisms for different forms of asset classes, etc.
And we'd love to touch on, you know, more of that with you guys.
But yeah, no, I mean, I think that that's kind of the high level.
Sure. Yeah. Thank you for that.
And actually, the thing that you mentioned right at the beginning,
the AMM vault on top of an order book sounds very much like one of the products
So it perhaps makes sense to move on to that as a topic of discussion now.
But I just wanted to give Hans the opportunity if you wanted to add anything to that as to,
you know, why did you particularly choose to go with an on-chain order book?
I know you've obviously mentioned a lot of the points already.
Yeah, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to add on to it if you wanted to.
Yeah, what I can do is exactly the same comments, really.
It's quite an extreme view, I guess.
But I just don't I don't see your kind of tradition,
traditional sounds ridiculous when it's only been around for a few years, right?
But traditional AMM as a long-term solution to the trading, you need to facilitate
peer-to-peer trading and not peer-to-pool trading, as it were.
Your kind of your XYK pool, the initial Uniswap only really came about through
constraints and as a V1 of something that you could build on the Ethereum blockchain.
And, you know, we're several years down the road now.
We've had chances to understand the limitations and innovate and create,
you know, like order matching algorithms that will work on chain that just weren't available.
And actually, interestingly, if you're into the real kind of technical weeds,
the way that like the, well, the interfaces that you have in the EVM and with Solidity
just don't allow the sort of efficient algorithms that we have with the SDK and with Cosmizem.
So, you know, it's kind of it's taken a while to get to a point where
where an on-chain order book is even feasible.
And then, yeah, like we talked about, it creates this architecture where you have this kind of
hub-and-spoke model and then the order book becomes a hub.
And your market makers can be three different algorithms.
You know, we have Bo, we have on the stable pairs, we have two different algorithms.
We have two different algorithms running on the on our LSD pairs.
And, you know, Mary had other independent people that are all running gridbots,
market making, you know, each person adding liquidity to the books and trading it in their
own way, which reduces the need to create inflationary incentives and have some,
you should say, like $10,000,000,000 to kind of set dormant.
Yeah, thank you for that.
And that really does bring us on to this next topic of discussion,
really just being that I suppose a particular not necessarily challenge that order book
indexes have found in the past, but it is that ability to encourage and incentivize
liquidity provision or to have any sort of meaningful liquidity in those books themselves.
Obviously, with an AMM, it's more simple, but obviously to the detriment of the product
itself by relying on incentives and that are often inflationary as well to encourage users
to deposit. Now, Helix and Finn have definitely solved this issue in very different ways. So,
I think this is an interesting topic for the two of us to sort of compare.
I've got two questions for you, Helix. The first one being just, could you walk us through the
various ways that you guys are encouraging LPs to provide liquidity? I know you mentioned the
gridbots and things like that, so it'd be interesting to sort of dive into that.
And the second question is, you mentioned it a few times that you're trying to achieve a retail
and institutional user base. So, how important are those institutional market makers for achieving
this goal? Those would be my two questions. Yeah, yeah. So, two great questions and I'll
kind of start, and I think that you really call that and it's definitely the case.
Bootstrapping central limit order book liquidity after we kind of come out of the conversation of
how central limit order book is so much better than an AMM, it's quite funny that bootstrapping
that liquidity is very difficult because on a high level, when you go after these type of
institutional market makers, the cost of capital for these different type of kind of prop shops
or market making shops is exceedingly high. And they usually are kind of finding the best alpha
across CFI, across DeFi, on-chain, et cetera. And they need to find kind of the most compelling ways
in kind of the highest return on that capital on-chain for providing liquidity. And in today's
market across different types of exchanges and DEXs, that's very relatively expensive. But the
purpose of doing that, it's kind of a chicken and egg, right? So, you work to really build
best in class liquidity. And then the concept is, you pay for that to some extent. And when you
pay for that, you then are able to onboard those users. Those users continue to come through
and bring that flow of their orders. And eventually, you don't have to incentivize
these market makers to be there at all. There's so much flow that they'll just be there naturally.
So that's like the vision and the goal and what we're trying to work toward in a very high level
situation, but not to get into it in terms of how we incentivize a lot of these institutional
market makers, who I think make up probably at least 80% of our liquidity at the moment.
I think there's probably about 15 to 16 of these teams all the way from, I think there's no surprise
that the jumps of the world who are backers of Injective and others are kind of on chain
and trading on Injective all the way down to some small prop shops across the world.
And to get into the kind of mechanism design, we take into account uptime,
we take into account volume, and we take into account how close these teams are resting to the
book. And based off those three variables, and you can find this kind of at our trading.injective.network
in our open liquidity program forms in terms of the actual formulas and all those different
types of things, we won't get into it too deep on a technical level. But based on those three
different variables, we assign a score to each of these market makers, and they compete against
each other every 28 days for a share of 40,000 INJ, which at current market prices is far more
than a million dollars. So it's a very expensive endeavor to essentially provide this liquidity.
But with that being the case, we have seen quite a few, we've seen really unique users jump,
liquidity jump over the past couple of months, and the trading activity really increase.
So that's kind of the main mechanism. And I would say kind of up to about six months ago,
the only mechanism that existed, but we're rapidly increasing these different forms of
liquidity profiles. And that's where kind of the spot grid trading,
vaults available now on Helix, which essentially allow for retail users
to go in on a very basic level, also provide liquidity towards these markets.
And that has been very interesting for us, in addition to all these different apps. So Black
Panther is a team that runs these vaults, and they're much more sophisticated, but essentially
you deposit into a smart contract, and that smart contract on Black Panther trades on your
behalf places orders on the order book. And many of these have been very profitable for them
without even any token incentives on top, which has been cool to see. And we're also excited
about the upcoming launch of MITO, which is also an Injective Lads product, which we'll
be launching here in the next kind of couple months, next month. And that will be another
liquidity profile and kind of a vault that will be market making on chain. Lastly,
I think that another instance of this is that we worked with the Hummingbot Foundation,
and the Hummingbot Foundation built out connectivity to Injective Central and Mid-Order Book.
And kind of the ethos there is that we're allowing anybody that's really not a sophisticated trader
who can only run a couple lines of code, I'm not too technical myself, and I'm able to get a
Hummingbot miner up and placing orders on the Injective Central and Mid-Order Book. So
a huge goal from our business and products perspective in 2023 and into 2024 is building
out those different unique ways to kind of provide passive liquidity to the order book
and active liquidity to that order book. But yeah, I think the main focus is still
and will continue to be kind of more of that institutional focus as well.
Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for that. And I'd like to echo just one of the things
that you said, actually, about the chicken and egg situation. And that's something that
we've been sort of relentlessly explaining to our community as well. But I think this also
somewhat works in your favor as well. Once the liquidity continues to grow, you build this sort
of flywheel effect to the upside, where your liquidity and trading activity are just increasing
exponentially because more trading activity means that you're getting more real yield and
sustainable revenue for your books as well. So yeah, we very much echo those same thoughts.
I think I'm maybe in the best position to explain the ways that Kujira are trying to
encourage liquidity on our network. And I'll also probably ask Hans to help me out towards the end
as well. But to incentivize liquidity on Fin, we have the product that we previously mentioned
called Bo. Now, it's a decentralized community market maker where it sort of operates in the
same way as an AMM, where you deposit 50-50 split in the standard pools. And they will use this
liquidity to place limit orders within the DEX itself. Obviously, profit from the bid-ask spread
and that profit will go and accrue to people providing the liquidity as well. Now, we have
StableSwap vocals as well, which will place tighter limit orders around the central limit
and LST pairs as well. So I think the interesting thing there being the dynamic of having various
different AMM style vaults, I'll say, but these different vaults working on the same order book
to create different trading environments, ones that are more suited for perhaps StableSwap pairs
for our decentralized Stablecoin USK and for just any of these LST pairs that we might have as well.
There's also a user interface where any third party can add incentives as well.
So I think this helps for protocols themselves that are willing to dish out some of their tokens
or perhaps some Stablecoins or any sort of token as incentives to try and encourage
liquidity provision on Kujira for their native token as well. So I think the ability to do that
helps these protocols to build some trading activity on Kujira. And it has been extensively
used by quite a few protocols as well. You touched on hummingbot adapters as well. We do also have
those for Fin. As you said as well, I'm not necessarily a technical person at all. But one
of the students at Kujira Academy is currently writing an article on how to set up these
hummingbot adapters and how to establish grid bots and trading bots on Fin itself.
And I'm going to be testing that and it hasn't looked too difficult to do so far. So again,
that sort of ethos of bringing financial tools to retail and allowing them to grow their capital
by providing them the tools to do it is quite important. Now, another way that we've
tried to build some liquidity on Kujira as well was through treasury swaps. So Manta Thao
have been doing this pretty excellently for the last, well, God knows how long, probably about a
year now. An issue that perhaps a lot of protocols will have is that their treasury will be
denominated in the native token itself. So if you want to provide liquidity for that,
for protocol-owned liquidity, you've either got to sell a percentage of those tokens or
come up with some creative way to convert it into another token to then
pair it on both or on an exchange. Now, what Manta have been able to do is propose treasury swaps
with various different protocols where they'll swap a portion of their Manta token for a portion
of, let's just use Kujira for an example, they'll swap some Manta tokens for Kuji tokens,
set up a Manta Kuji pair. And then they've established a trade routing mechanism,
which will find the most efficient route through the various trading pairs on the order book as
well. So by building up Manta pair liquidity, by building up stablecoin pair liquidity,
and by building up Kuji pair liquidity, we eventually aggregate all of these different
order books together and route through the most efficient one to get you from token A to token
B. So I think that's a more creative way, again, eliminating the need for inflationary
incentives that we're trying to really just cut out because I think we've all recognized that
this isn't a sustainable long term business plan. Now, we actually released an announcement about
this yesterday. So perhaps hands out, I can get you to jump in here, talking about the leveraged
LPs and the thing that this can bring to protocol owners. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm quite
excited about this. So leveraged LPs basically lets you fundamentally borrow against your LP tokens.
But one manifestation of this, basically, it means that you can take your treasury token,
and you can borrow the stable side of the liquidity that you need, and to visit the
whole thing. So you can have $100,000 worth of your protocol token, borrow $100,000 of USDC or
USK or whatever off of Ghost. That gets deposited into both, creates liquidity for your token,
and those LP tokens then collateralize the $100,000 of borrowing from Ghost.
The really nice thing about this is that because you're collateralizing your loan here with
something that you haven't sold it, it's not like a margin position somewhere.
The LTV doesn't really move very easily. You have to have a 4 or 5X on one side of the pair
to generate the IL that would make the LTV go bad. So you open it naturally at 50% LTV.
At the moment, the max LTV is 75%, but I think that's quite a conservative one. Because of the
way the liquidations work with LP tokens, we can probably crank that and make these really
quite safe positions. So you now create a fully decentralized, fully on-chain order book liquidity
for your token denominated against the stable token. So people can place limit orders
with a stable token, you know, buys or whatever. And you haven't had to sell anything. You haven't
had to do any treasury swaps. You haven't had to pay incentives. Yeah, it's kind of quite excited
about it really. Yeah, when you told me about it the other day, and I knew that I was going to
get that announcement out, I knew I'd probably get a few people frothing for it. So definitely,
I think the two of us combined with Helix and Finn, definitely coming up with interesting
solutions to deal with this liquidity issue. Because yeah, like I assume both protocols are
in the same boat where paying for this is incredibly expensive, or could be incredibly
expensive. And for us to have a long time business proposition and to remain above board for as long
as we want to, it doesn't make sense to just dish out inflationary incentives in this way.
But this also sort of allows a nice segue into another topic of conversation. So of course,
when you're encouraging liquidity for newly listed tokens, it's particularly important to allow for
efficient trade execution from the get go. Now, Kuji is of course listed on Helix very recently,
and Inge is listed on Finn. So both of these assets can be traded efficiently on both of
our DEXs. But I think it'd be interesting to know from you guys, Helix, what is your
process for deciding which tokens to list? Yeah, great question. So generally speaking,
actually, the entire listing process end to end to get on chain is fully subject to governance.
And that's kind of one of the interesting aspects of Injective and kind of this
WordPress for finance approach is that there are several other front ends that mirror the same
central limit order book liquidity. And at the end of the day, while Helix is kind of something
that we're determining kind of which markets are shown and those different types of things and
owned by us, there are several other front ends and anybody who's free to fork Helix and the
open source repo launch their own DEX on top of that central limit order book and launch their
own markets, assuming that there's liquidity or they have one of those market makers providing
liquidity towards those pairs. To answer your question, so in terms of listing, you have to
launch either a spot or proposal through our governance, there's the ability to instantly
launch with I believe it's 10INJ as well to kind of skip through that governance process as well.
And otherwise, it's kind of up to kind of this three day kind of discussion period,
and then goes to the vote. And that's all kind of our normal governance process.
Once the market is created, then essentially, as soon as that's enacted, it's just kind of
subject to any liquidity provider coming on and providing liquidity towards that market,
and then being showcased in some front end. Helix has kind of showcased to date on the
product side, and this is really kind of a product question. Every major perp and spot market,
even these unique meme coins that have come up, we have launched and placed under our
experimental markets, letting essentially all different forms of users know this is not
financial advice in any way, shape or form, but giving them the ability to even trade those
meme tokens as well. Finally, I think the more important question is, is how do we determine
which markets are launched and supported via the open liquidity program, which are these
inflationary incentives that you noted? And the answer to that is that that's fully subject
to governance. We review internally on the Injective Labs teams do kind of with our quant
team an intense amount of rigor with regards to what is feeding back the most taker volume,
what's bringing through the most flow to the exchange, and where we're seeing the best
results with regards to liquidity. But that, in addition to a lot of what we're seeing in terms
of the governance forms, the governance threads, and within our community, such as noted with you
guys, we had seen so much interest in a Kuji spot listing. And interestingly, we also noticed
that you guys have almost all the liquidity lives within your guys incredible ecosystem.
So we were trying to find different forms of liquidity providers to really, even if we added
it to our open liquidity program, have users able to earn those incentives and earn those rewards
for providing that liquidity. And thankfully, there were enough kind of community members
that were able to make that possible. So essentially, it's a kind of a group effort
with regards to hearing from community members, the governance forms, everything subject to
governance with regards to OLP. It's voted on every epoch and adding those different markets
to the program. Brilliant. Yeah. So I guess just to summarize what you said then,
your decision making process in terms of what gets added to the open liquidity program
is things like take volume, the amount of liquidity that you can achieve through organic means,
through sourcing from the community, and just flow to the Helix exchange itself. Would that be
correct? Yes, that is correct. And also, I think more broadly, as the network continues to get
more and more decentralized, it's already incredibly decentralized, but as it continues
to get more and more decentralized, the concept and the mission of the open liquidity program
is to create a world in which there's several other exchanges similar to Waverly or the team
that previously built QWERTY in which they are also determining and deciding different markets that
should be allocated liquidity that may not even live on Helix itself. But yes, to answer your
question. Okay. Thank you so much for that answer. Dan, did you want to take us through
the process on Kujira side? Because I imagine most of it will be echoed. Absolutely. One
interesting thing, though, just on the liquidity side that we do that, you know, just kind of
slightly different approach or just very much along our ethos is, you know, once a token is listed,
which I'll explain the listing processes in a second, but once a token is is substantiated and
trading on fin, the project itself, the team itself can deposit incentives directly through
bow and incentivize liquidity on their own. It's basically completely market driven. You know,
if there's interest in demand and trading, you know, there will be strong fees, strong fees will,
you know, you know, bear yield and people will be interested in collecting fees and depositing
liquidity on a one to one basis, each individual user or holder of that token can or somebody can
just buy the token or even borrow it on ghost, in many cases, and deposit and provide liquidity
for that token. Our listing process is very simple and straightforward. Just go in our Discord,
we suggest just take a temperature check, go in, you know, give folks an idea about the project,
what it does, you know, try to have some amount of discourse, if possible for a few days, we don't
have any type of strict rules around a discussion period. We just try to recommend I usually take
calls with any new project and just try to recommend that they go in there and have some
some amount of discussion with the community and make sure folks are aware of what they're doing
and kind of, you know, any type of roadmap they might want to discuss. You can get a proposal,
then you can get a proposal up, it's $500 in USK, and it's a 48-hour voting period,
basically it. And yeah, we try to encourage, you know, we try to
encourage them to, you know, explain the project well and make sure it kind of sits well within
the Kujira ecosystem, but it's a very straightforward, you know, simple process to listing on
Yeah, thank you so much for that, Dan. And then obviously,
taking things on to on-chain governance afterwards and getting it through the proposals is
the last step. And on top of that, like Dan said, pretty much almost instantly afterwards,
we'll have both people up there for people to provide liquidity. And in the off chance that
some of these, you know, if there's a token that wants to be listed, but doesn't get community
approval, has to hit quorum, has to hit over the required threshold for it to be passed through.
And if it's not, it's not listed. So we have a nice sort of intricate system that allows us,
well, allows the community to decide what is valuable enough to be warranted on Fin the
exchange itself, or what, you know, what shouldn't be there and what perhaps isn't valuable
enough to make the cut. So it's obviously evident that the community for both Helix and Kujira
are important in this decision-making process, obviously via governance and perhaps more loosely
just gauging interest for new tokens. We actually see a lot of overlap in the communities between
Injective and Kujira. I don't know, maybe this is because of the IBC allowing native
asset transfer between the two, but it's been really good to see. It's been good to see on
Twitter, as you noticed, and as you just said yourself, that the demand for Kujion Injective
was huge. The demand for Inj use cases on Kujira is massive as well. So we've got lots of guides
out that are really getting people to utilize their Inj tokens on Kujira with our lending,
our money market, providing liquidity, even actually using it as collateral for USK as well.
So the use cases for the two are widespread within Kujira.
But I think actually, just on that note, it'd be interesting to know a little bit more about
your community, perhaps, because it's been relatively a new advancement and a new thing
that's happened between our two communities. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit
about what you think attracts them to Injective and to Helix itself. Well, we've both seen a lot
of growth and external contributions to our respective ecosystems. So it would also be
useful to hear what you were doing to encourage builders to develop on Injective for any perhaps
prospective builders in the audience. Totally, totally. And that's kind of jumping outside a bit
of the Helix realm more generally, but more than happy to really speak to it. And generally,
Helix being kind of the first step technically in the Injective network, Helix has seen it all. And
generally, kind of specific to the growth recently, and also, yes, as noted, echoing everything you
just said with regards to, we see so much kind of overlap in your guys' incredible community,
as well as so much overlap into kind of our community and what they're doing. But in terms
of the growth and what we've seen specifically over the past two, three months,
it's really been on the builder side of things and having all these different applications come in
and build different types of applications and also bring users in to use those applications. And then
by the process of kind of them just being on the network and in the neighborhood,
taking advantage in some way of coming on and trading to Helix. I think that that's kind of
been the funnel that's been incredibly successful. Obviously, it's been very successful to offer all
different types of unique products, as I mentioned previously, such as pre-launch perp markets and
otherwise. But I think kind of to key in on there, it's definitely a lot of these different
builders who are looking for these different forms of VM environments, namely WASM on the Injective
and I believe on the Kujira side of things. And that kind of growth and activity, in addition to
the aspect of super low gas fees and all of the stuff that you get when you're not really
in these EVM environments, have really led to a ton of growth within our ecosystem.
Yeah, thank you for that insight. And yeah, I realize you're correct in saying that that
is outside of the specific scope of Helix, but I think it's actually quite interesting just to
hear your thoughts as an ecosystem builder yourself with obviously a unique insight into those things.
So thanks for that answer. I can also really appreciate the community aspect angle.
Well, as a brief backstory, I was once just a community member for Kujira itself.
I started off as community member, was encouraged to provide value by the Kujira team on social
media and so on. And from that was given, or I earned the right to join the team. So I've
continued that effort myself to try and empower the community to contribute and to provide meaningful
use cases. So like I said, I'm a founder of Kujira Academy. And what we do is we try to
build up community members to a point where they're either getting employed in the ecosystem
themselves or creating content, both written video content, or even just being an ambassador
in their local communities. So really pushing the Kujira products and the Kujira ethos
to people in the nearby area. And I think through honest and open discourse from the team members
themselves, I think our community feels more in touch and can relate on like a human level
to the founders and to the team. So I think it makes it more tangible for them to really contribute
and to develop Kujira as an ecosystem, as a community. In terms of the developer side
of things, I think Hans, maybe you'd be better to speak on this. But yeah, obviously, the developer
docs that we've been producing from existing developers as well, are going to help to onboard
people. We've got a nice community pool that we can use to provide grants to prospective
builders as well. But yeah, as I said, I'll leave it to Hans to perhaps speak about just
the various ways that we're encouraging builders to come and join.
Quite a good question, really. I think the community thing is the number one, really.
What has been really interesting, we incubated on Stake as a project that was not a core team
product initially. And so we got to see the reception of a new project and how the community
reacted to it. It was incredible to see, to be honest. And so you've got the community angle
which is amazing. And most of our efforts outside of bringing perks and incremental
feature enhancements to the existing products is on creating the dev tooling that you really need.
We're working closely with Confio and Cosmasm. The next chain release brings
in the chain queries, it brings in the chain accounts and actually brings in the chain
queries architecture that is a single transaction as opposed to at least two, which is what other
chains have. The chain upgrade after that will bring single block, oracle speed. It's all about
just creating a nice experience for developers and giving them the tools and the interfaces
they need to basically build anything they want. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for that.
I realized that we've probably got just under 10 minutes left. So I wanted to give the opportunity
for both Helix and Kijira to talk about just things that they're perhaps excited for. So any
future plans, what do you think the products look like one year, five years from now,
that kind of thing? So yeah, anything that you'd like to share about what 2024 will bring
and anything you're excited for? Yeah, 100%. And I think that from my side of things specifically,
and don't want to kind of be the hype beast, the Helix side of things, but there are like
a ton of huge, kind of huge things coming this year for Helix as it relates to really building
out the product roadmap and really making Helix its own standalone project built on the
Injective Network. So we'll want, you know, many and everyone listening to just stay tuned and
really stay up to date on our Twitter. So that's kind of the long term and more of kind of
what's to come this year. And with that being said, jump into more specifics on the Helix side
of things, you can see as early as early next week, we've been teasing it quite a bunch.
But our first new pre-launch perp market, or not our first new, but kind of a new pre-launch
perp market that's coming and many new potential markets, such as I think I mentioned earlier,
FX and other perp and spot markets coming very soon. We also are very interested in exploring
different INGA denominated spot markets, which could be interesting. And I think once MITO launches
in the coming months, and a lot of that product functionality is finalized and built out,
we're very excited to really showcase the full power of, you know, having this institutional
liquidity kind of provisioning profiles, in addition to having kind of this on-chain AMM
plus order book combination. So those are the things that I'm really excited about. I think
really stay tuned to some new product and market launches coming in the next one and two weeks.
And then on top of that, definitely just stay up to date for kind of big announcements coming
from our side of things with regards to, you know, different incentives coming to the exchange, etc.
Brilliant. Thank you so much for that. Dan, I know you wanted to share some thoughts on the
Kuji Pay side of things and perhaps any other future plans that you'd like to share.
Then I'll give it to Hans afterwards as well. Yeah. I mean, we introduced an article like
earlier this week, but we'll be launching perp soon. We're really excited about that.
Leveraged LPs will be coming out soon. We spoke a little bit about that earlier,
but that is going to be very exciting. Our wallet Sonar is going to be getting some major updates,
both with Kato Money and some other integrations, including Pidali, which will allow you to
kind of buy gift cards directly from Sonar and some other purchases. We'll have
updates for DAO using Sonar where they'll be able to kind of create proposals.
We are also going to be having a direct IBC connection to both Polkadot and Nier,
which will allow kind of native assets to move back and forth between those ecosystems,
which we're really excited about. Yeah, and there's a bunch more stuff going on
as it relates to LSTs and core. So yeah, we're really excited by that. And then a very long term,
we hope to really get Sonar usage in the real world, having people kind of pay for products
and services, especially in countries that might need it using USK. So yeah, we're working on that
too. And I'll let Hans take over from here if he has any concluding remarks.
Yeah, I think for me the exciting thing is we're seeing the composability of all these
kind of basic building blocks that we spent the last year and a half building coming together.
Bow leverages is, you know, pulls together ghost, it pulls together bow and fin and all
into one product, which is, you know, we talked about the advances a bit there for providing
practical and liquidity. We've got Unstake, which uses ghost and Quark is integrated with
Unstake to provide into the migration from one LST to another LST. You know, that's only going
to get bigger when we bring in chain accounts for Cosmasm and then we'll have, you know, native
IBC LSTs on Kajira. So you might have like a Quark version of Staked Atom, which you can
instantly migrate from Strive version and back and forth and whatever. You know, talking to
some of the guys building options protocols about how we integrate with a wider ecosystem and allow
these new protocols to put protocols building to tap into the kind of liquidity available in ghost
liquidity available fin and use it to bootstrap and accelerate their growth and just make the
whole ecosystem more efficient and more exciting really. So yes, I guess. Yeah.
Yeah, really nice. And certainly something that we've we've been
Oh, sorry. So it's certainly something that we've been talking about for a long time
and trying to get people to understand the vision of how we're building out this foundation first and
allowing other external builders to build on top of them with composability at the heart of
everything that we're doing. And yeah, like you said, it's very exciting to see that certainly
come into fruition now. I realize in the interest of time, we've actually got one minute
left. So we can't really take any questions either. But I just wanted to say, of course,
massive thank you to everyone who joined us today. But really a massive thank you as well
to helix for organizing this with us and for jumping on with us today. It's been a really
interesting conversation to hear from the perspective really of two different, you know,
massive titans in the on chain or the book sector. As I said, 2023 was a massive year
for both Felix and Finn with liquidity volumes, almost every single measurable statistic really
growing exponentially. So I'm personally very excited to pick up this conversation and perhaps
another six months and just to see where we are and see how we've we've acted upon these
these longer term goals that we've got. But I think let's just leave it here. Thank you again
to to helix. And that's that's it for me. I just wanted everyone else to say that
that goodbyes and more when the spaces but yeah, thank you very much. Thanks guys. And
thanks for making this happen. It was an absolute pleasure and looking forward to all
the collaboration together in 2024. We're done. Thank you. Cheers.
Yeah, yeah. Likewise. Thank you. Thanks.