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Kuru Live! feat. @_jhunsaker & @intern
Recorded: April 16, 2025 Duration: 1:44:40Space Recording
Short Summary
In a lively discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the recent launch of Base's new coin, the integration of USDC with Monad Mainnet, and the emerging trend of stablecoins reshaping payment systems. The conversation also touched on the anticipated launch of the Neutral stablecoin, which aims to introduce innovative hedging strategies, signaling a dynamic shift in the crypto landscape.
Full Transcription
Thank you. so I'm a bitch, I'm a bitch, I'm a bitch, I'm a bitch, I'm a bitch, I'm a bitch, been up two days, now I hit the switch, let's go.
Better get the bag, well I got the wrist, no, no, don't go, yeah, I'm off the grid, lay low.
I'm off the grid, lay low.
Cancel my face, I'm in space.
Been up to pace, now I hit the switch, let's go.
Gotta get the bag, well I got the wrist.
No phone, don't call, yeah I'm off the grid, lay low.
Not a phone to vote.
Yo, what you wanna do?
I'm off the grid, lay low.
Not a phone to vote.
Yo, what you wanna do?
I'm off the grid, lay low.
I'm off the grid, lay low. I'm off the grid, lay low. Oh, wonderful.
You know what you want to do?
Oh, no, wonderful. Thank you. Let's go. This is where she's going. Better beat the berg while I cut the wrist. No phone, don't call you.
I'm a good little.
Now I'm the fool.
You wanna do? so
Oh, wonderful.
God damn it.
Yo, what's up, everybody?
G-Crew, G-Monad.
What's up, Cozy?
Yo, KB, what's up?
Wednesday night, a little bit earlier than usual, 6 p.m., hanging out with the crew.
Got interning James with us. Man, it's a great night to go live with Kuru.
No, I'm excited. I'm excited. How are you doing, KB?
Yeah, I'm super excited for this one. I'm excited to sit back and relax and, yeah, listen to the goats.
So true, so true. Honestly, like, when we—I mean, KB and I always talk about this whenever we have guests. We're like, wow, this just, this makes life so much better than which, which I will say for our normal crew, we love shooting the breeze. We love're excited to have James Hunsacker with us from Category Labs, co-founder of
Monad and also intern who is with us, who's the director of growth with the Monad Foundation.
Guys, how are you doing?
Doing well.
How are you guys?
Oh, man, we're great.
We're great.
How are you doing, intern?
Yeah, also doing well. How are you guys? Oh man, we're great. We're great. How are you doing intern? Yeah, also doing well. Now honored to be up on stage.
Staring it with James. Usually we just debate each other in private.
So cool to do it in front of KB Cozy and the crew.
100%. Well, you guys should know our listeners. We were we were trying to game plan.
We were trying to get some content ready. I think we've got some good questions to kick us off and everything.
But honestly, intern and James were like, hey, we'll do it live like we could argue about anything.
So I think we're just going to riff. We're going to see where the night takes us.
And it's going to be a lot of fun while we do it. Hey, just to launch in.
Right. You guys know us. We like to
talk about the market. We're not on the right curve side of things, although we do have some
pretty, I think, sharp people with us. No financial advice, but we'll do our best.
Yeah. So really, we're just thinking about to kick us off the market and kind of where things
are standing. It's been an interesting last week, two weeks or so.
It was funny. I was talking to KB today. I feel like since last Wednesday, which I think was when
Trump announced the tariff pause, right? So we kept our tariffs on China, but we reduced everything
else to 10% doing the 90 day pause, infamous 90 day pause, kind of cooked the market for a little bit.
Although Bitcoin and crypto have been kind of hedging, kind of hanging out, doing their
thing in the mid 80s.
And over the last week, we've seen some kind of back and forth on messaging and all of
that good stuff.
But we're kind of in like the middle of a time where we're kind of in between the main
thing, right?
Maybe the main thing right now is that base launched a coin a few hours ago, which has been pretty fun. But yeah, I mean,
just with majors or otherwise, we'd love to tee it up. I mean, KB, have you been trading much?
Have you been in the trenches this last week? Like, what's your read been on things?
Not really. I mean, like here and there, but it just never works out for me.
So I'm just, let me just just I'm sitting on my hands.
I did not go to base. Thank goodness. That was crazy today. I think we'll touch on that later.
But no, I think during these times, like it's just kind of it's just builder mode right now
and not doing too much trading. Yeah, right on. I mean, it's a good time to be in builder mode. If you're
in the US, you're paying your taxes yesterday. I don't know about anybody else, but I was not
really thinking about like clipping into a coin, although I did just kick 0.1 or 0.01 ETH. So I
think I put like $15 into the base coin. So a little Chipotle bowl just kicked in there to see what would happen um tbd
tbd maybe maybe uh coinbase still has some motion left for us we'll have to see um yeah james i
don't know with i know you're pretty head down building a lot of the time are you actively
trading much these days like are you kind of uh keeping an eye on things or what's kind of your
read on the day-to-day with regard to trading?
Uh, yeah, I would say I'm like 50 to 60% cash and, um, Trump's tariffs have been great for my tax loss harvesting. I've racked up a lot of, uh, losses. Uh uh so i shouldn't have to pay taxes this year maybe i don't know
but um i'm buying but i'm not i'm not trying to like what they say catch the knife too much
i'm like buying here and there equities uh crypto i'm not really doing anything uh looks kind of dead to me and the yields have kind of dried up which is mostly
what i do so uh yeah i think a lot of my money in crypto is just sitting like in athena right now
earning well five percent or something athena's currently paying
yeah right on we'll have to touch on later here i I don't know if you guys saw, but there was just a new interesting kind of like Athena. I don't want to call it a derivative. I don't know what you would call it. But this new stable coin that's going to be coming out. It's called Neutral.
like a similar hedging strategy but what they're going to be doing is buying like otc coins and
like arbitraging off of it so it's going to be really interesting i don't know if you guys saw
that announcement today but um yeah there's some kind of like interesting athena clones that have
different strategies that are kind of coming into the market and everything so i feel like we might
just need one of those to blow up for us to actually catch a bottom here in the next year
so but i'm not wishing that on anyone.
I think Athena is pretty sharp though. I trust, I trust those guys, but.
I think like there's been a lot of these launches. I, this one,
I saw the announcement, but I didn't, I didn't look in particulars,
but I think I've tweeted about this a few times. Like there's just a,
sort of the explosion of these like mini sort of stable coins all over the
place.
And then the staked version and then the Pendolicit.
And I don't know.
I'm kind of staying away from that stuff.
It just seems pretty risky.
Athena is kind of a safe place, but Athena kind of yields have dried up with the market.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I'm kind of skeptical of any of these things
that are smaller, that are in like in the 50 to a hundred million dollar range or less.
Yeah. I mean, I don't think that's, I think it's a good strategy to be,
yeah, skeptical on this 100%. I mean, you kind of want to see, you definitely want to do research
and you don't just want to clip coins
for yield. And I think that what Neutral is doing with like the buying coins OTC, it's like,
well, what are the assets that are going to be that are going to be in those? Yeah, man. And just
we could talk about Ohm later too. Like what a crazy, that was a crazy um little weekend adventure that we had just a casual four and a half billion
evaporated from a chart so that's actually one of the big things that that happened this week too
that i just kind of uh forgot about i must have my phone on airplane mode or something like that
um but uh but yeah kind of kind of uh wild times not in the trenches but maybe in the RWA world. So yeah, that always tastes fun. Intern, what about you?
The risk isn't really priced into these things, right? Like these are,
you got a smart contract and you got another smart contract,
which is wrapping it.
Then it's deposited in some other protocol or bridged and then it's deposited in
the Pendle and then people borrow against that on Morpho. And like,
you just, there's a ton of just layers of smart contract risk and um i i don't think that the yields like
really justify that and i don't know what these people are doing like loaning stuff for like four
or five percent you might as well just buy a treasury uh which is basically zero risk um so
yeah i people should be more careful would be my only message there.
And just really, like, think about all the different layers that are involved in
and which teams are involved.
Like, look at the teams.
Look at, like, what's the risk?
What's all the layering?
Where could anything possibly go wrong?
And I think you would find there's a lot more places that could go wrong
if people really notice, really know about that's so true I mean even as you say that uh James it makes me
think of the I don't know if you guys know it's like a web 2 meme but it's like with all of the
funky like business type apps that you have to put things in so it's like oh yeah okay go ahead
send it to me on teams then upload it into Prindle. And then you're going to have to
put it into, you're going to have to put it into Longu. And then you're going to upload it onto
Zing. And it's just like all of these like word salad things. And you're like, yeah, you got to
put it into Pendle. And then you go over and you stake it on Morpho. And then you put it into
Meteora. And then you earn your yield. And yeah, man, you're just adding the layers and the layers on top.
It's kind of crazy.
Yeah.
Intern, have you been in the trenches much?
Like what's kind of your read been on like the tariff wildness and everything and just
kind of how you're looking at like majors and things like that, thinking for maybe like
for maybe like the short to midterm here?
the short to midterm here?
Yeah, I'm pretty outspokenly
always optimistic on markets,
which like usually actually turns out pretty well.
Sometimes you get like six to 12 months
where you're wrong and just eat it for a bit.
But yeah, I don't know.
I feel like in general,
this probably works itself out.
Stocks tend to go up.
So when the tariff thing actually hit,
I hadn't buy equities in a little while.
I did on that Friday.
And then I pinged James and James was like,
yeah, I'm thinking the same.
And usually James and I don't come to confluence all the time.
So when that came in, I'm like, all right,
I feel a little bit better now.
But yeah, I don't know.
Usually, and then for crypto stuff, I do trade a bit.
I used to trade all the time when my job was investing in the space.
But now it's, I don't know, maybe once a quarter, I'll actually put trades on.
And then the other time that I will definitely move money around on chain
is if I'm trying to like figure out like a new meta that a lot of people are doing, or like I'd
like to, I feel like you can't really know what it feels like to use products in crypto, um, or like
build in the space unless you're actually a user of these things. So like I have, you know, capital
on the side that I'm like, all right, this is just for trying out new stuff if it gets rugged it's fine um if it goes up it's fine but like yeah i don't
know i almost think of that as like it's there to get experiences to learn and then as you learn
more right that should actually help you earn more in the future so i don't know i i move relatively slowly these days um but i i feel like you whenever
you see a bunch of doomer stuff and people are like oh we're the world's gonna end all that it's
like one of two things is gonna happen right either the world actually ends in which case
we're smoked anyways or things get better which historically they just have done for
essentially forever um so yeah, I don't know.
I'm a pretty optimistic person.
I take an optimistic view on the macro markets in general.
Yeah, the fundamentals of this stuff isn't going to change.
Like NVIDIA is not going away, right? So why is the price swinging so much?
It's just, I don't know.
If you're a long-term investor, I just wouldn't even worry about it.
It's a buying opportunity.
Yeah, and I also think, I mean, I'm a big tech guy in general, and I feel like the edge there
is understanding what these new emerging technologies will do before most people.
And just from working in crypto, looking at AI stuff all the time, you can kind of get a good
window into that. And I feel like, I don't't know everyone always talks about tech being so overvalued and i just feel like they're underestimating the the long-term like three
to five year impact of this stuff so yeah i i agree with james on that like these things aren't
going away this is going to be super important it's only going to grow so or even 20 year like
you know this trump's going to be dead in a few years so like you know move on like it's 20 years. Trump's going to be dead in a few years. So move on.
Trump's not even going to be alive.
Don't base your decisions off what Trump's doing.
Yeah, and I think that one of the best windows of opportunity that we have right now is,
it feels like we've been saying this on the space for a few weeks now,
really just since Trump has been in office,
is that you can kind of worry about or think about the short to midterm, right?
Like we don't know where prices are going to be three, six, 12 months from now. But if there's
any consolation, which is a great consolation, it's that the future, I mean, the industry survived,
it thrived in a lot of ways under a hostile administration over the last four years, right?
The crypto was kind of able to survive even under the thumb of the SEC and all of these things.
And now we have these regulatory frameworks that are kind of coming into play here.
We have the stablecoin bills that are in Congress right now.
We have hopefully market structure that's going to be coming.
We have Hester Pierce that's working on some clarification from the SEC,
and hopefully we get more there coming soon.
So I think that's really just going to create a runway for us to know the rules of the ballgame,
right? We've kind of just been playing fast and loose and everything, and the industry has been
developing. But with that unfettered, hopeful, like regulatory clarity giving us like the bounds
of the game, it'll just allow more and more people, existing projects to continue to innovate,
and new people to feel comfortable to be able to do it, which I think will be, yeah, just a great
thing all around. So we're going to be around for the long haul. Bitcoin is here to stay. And now
it's just like, okay, do I really need to be like fully allocated right now? Like maybe I want to be
sitting some in cash and just be ready to buy when the time is right. So yeah, it's just one of those
times to kind of like,
maybe sit on your hands, but know that like crypto is going up and everybody's saying this,
but it's just a great time, great time to be building in crypto. So yeah, it's just fun.
Yeah. I'll take a little bit of a devil's advocate against that. Like
a lot of crypto PMF was basically regulatory arbitrage right and
if if the regular if the regulations change i think you know you're going to be searching for new sort
of pmf and um like i think that regulatory stuff in a lot of ways,
the confusion actually benefited a lot of crypto.
And I think that people that were most affected by it would be like the
exchanges, that sort of thing. And so I can see why they're happy.
But I think also the overall like hang.
So it didn't argue against myself a little bit.
There is like the overall hang isn't gone.
Like Trump's going to be out of office in three and a half years or whatever,
three and three quarters years. And unless the law is actually changed,
you know, there's no like sort of statute of limitations. They look back.
So the stuff that's been dismissed with prejudice or that sort of thing will be
gone. But the
whole crime is legal again meme sort of thing is not real. You do something today and if
the law doesn't really radically change, they'll authorize what you did. The next administration
could easily be a Democrat administration. They can come back and sue you three and a half, four years later.
It's not, it's not necessarily like a free for all in the current thing,
but I still think that I still,
I still think there were benefits to sort of the regulatory pressure and
ambiguity.
Yeah. I mean, I no you go for it yeah um
james and i it's actually funny i see mr bill monday in the the crowd too we actually
went we were joking about a steak dinner on twitter like three weeks ago or something
we actually went to a steak dinner and ran through this entire conversation of what James just talked about and played both sides on it. So a little bit of culture in there.
Yeah. I mean, look, the regulatory side is tough to predict. Don't do anything illegal. You very
likely will regret it. At the same time, about an hour ago, Base off of their main account just
launched a bunch of meme coins and a ton of people lost money.
So it does feel like we just opened back up into the Wild West.
And now instead of your traditional scammers and grifters going out and pulling money for coins,
Coinbase is the single leader for crypto in the US, undisputed.
And they're doing it.
So like,
I don't know.
I really don't know what to think about some of the things that are going on.
And I feel like when you don't know,
it's much better to just not touch the stuff that you,
you don't know.
What is your guys's read?
I feel,
I feel like those are both those are both good points that we're kind of in unprecedented territory,
but that regulatory clarity not only could stifle some of the headway that the crypto
kind of market in general has taken advantage of, but also I think there's a real thesis that
when there's clarity, then these big big institutions could potentially like come in.
You could charitably say that they'll utilize crypto to its full extent. I hope that would
be the case. But maybe in some ways, they're just kind of wearing crypto as a skin suit.
But I do think that there would still be advantages there. But like, if like Citadel
wants to like come in and make its own, you know, decks or something like that. I mean,
I don't really know what the network effects of that would be or like how that would go. But obviously, they're like,
well capitalized, they have this like large user base that's existing already. Do you what do you
guys think about the idea that like, they just come in and kind of like eat these like DeFi
protocols lunches or like how those kind of trad trad 5 versus like defy native projects kind of
like exists in a world where let's just say there is some regulatory clarity that comes in a legal
sense over the next few years yeah like why why why do you want them in the industry right like
some some people want them because they want blackrock to tokenize, or sorry, you know, ETF a token,
basically, and price will go up and they hold that token. I think that's just a very short,
very short-sighted sort of thinking. You know, a lot of people are in the industry to move away
from these sort of tradflant institutions and their control and their power and the way they've made massive amounts of money off
you know retail and other smaller institutions like pension funds that sort of thing so like
why would why would you cheer them sort of coming in i i just don't i just don't understand that
logic i mean you can't just solely be like I hope somebody else buys the thing that I own and the price goes up.
Like that's, that's, you know, that's, that's good.
That's kind of a good short term strategy, but that's not the way I kind of view crypto industry and the purpose of the crypto industry.
Yeah.
And I think to maybe kind of paint the, the other side of the coin as well.
I think kind of two forces trade off there. One,
say we're pre-Citadel, you have a bunch of Wild West startups that have gotten big and become
the leaders in the industry that run everything. For the last 15 years, basically, it's been, is this idea validated?
And the more validated it becomes, kind of the more prices have gone up, the more people care about it.
And so when Citadel comes in, right, they do eat a lot of kind of the small DeFi people's lunches, and that is harmful.
But you get the validation side.
I really don't know what happens after that.
Because the president of the United States has established a strategic Bitcoin reserve.
Larry Fink is on TV saying, tokenize everything.
That's the future.
Citadel is now making markets.
Like you kind of have gotten all of the validation there.
So I don't know if that kind of all of the juice has been squeezed out of that.
But I know from like, at least from 2017 until now, it's basically been like, do any important
people think this is real?
And then like, how many dominoes can you knock over to get everyone to say crypto
is the future? And every time that happens, it has added energy to the space. But yeah,
I think now it's really the impetus is on, is there a true product market fit that delivers
value to society? What is it? And we're kind of at that point now it's like the there's less direct
speculation on like hey you can build anything in the world this is this crazy frontier no one
knows what's possible um and now it's become all right people know about this this is like a
normalized industry what can you build with it why is it important and then how do we value that so
i think those are kind of the two forces where like big institutions coming in, like those are,
those are at least how I see the pros and cons. Yeah. I think like if these institutions come
in and take over crypto as we know it, then there's just going to be another, there's going
to be crypto V2, which is going to be a rebellion against that version of crypto right so like um these institutions are
very good at extracting money and um people may think that that's like beneficial for them to join
i just don't i just don't view it that way it's kind of anti-thesis of what we're trying to build
yeah one one thing on that side too i saw, I'm a big Zcash guy,
like for the record,
I don't recommend buying it.
The chart is terrible.
But like, I think it's a really good innovation
that is only possible on crypto,
essentially like private money.
And Binance put Zcash up for delisting,
which is like,
Zcash is kind of a crypto V2 type of thing, right?
Like Citadel is not going to create completely untraceable money.
So yeah, I actually, I agree with you on that, James.
I feel like a V2 version, if TradFi eats the current version, like definitely comes out
for kind of the cypherpunks and the people that care about the ethos.
Yeah, I saw that.
I assumed that
was more regulatory i i thought they'd already delisted it because i used to own zcash and i
know some exchanges didn't have it yeah they were afraid of getting in trouble and that sort of
thing so i don't know i kind of assumed that they didn't have a choice but did they ever actually
respond to all that they they did so i'm i'm friendly with zuko which has been the craziest
like i used to look up to him as a god and then from kind of just getting on crypto twitter and
talking like i've become friends with them um no i i my honest take on why bonance was doing it
because they put it up with like they're like oh these three coins are up for delisting it was like
Like, oh, these three coins are up for delisting.
It was like EBD toilet coin and like, you know, finger bum coin and then Zcash.
And I honestly think it was like some kid who doesn't know what Zcash is was looking at him and they're like, all right, these are the charts.
There's not a lot of volume on this.
Just kick it off.
So I would be surprised if like after all of those years having Zcash during the tough regulations, now that it's kind of open that they did it.
But I really don't know.
I think they should not delisten.
I think it's very important to crypto and hopefully society at large that they don't.
But it was crazy to see.
Well, I think like dollar dominance is still going to be in play for a very long time.
So we really need like a private stable coin more so than these sort of free-floating privacy coins.
Hey, guys.
The chat was promised blood.
We don't have a lot of blood here right now
that's true james is drinking blue moon right now it might have made him just a little bit
too nice a little bit too happy so i don't know we might need to stir the pot okay i do we will
stir the pot in just a bit here but i do feel like the big thing that we should touch on by the
way zcash mentioned i'm sure that cryptopathic somewhere is eating beans and toast and is just rejoicing at positive Zcash sentiment right here.
So that's great. Shout out to Path. And yeah, we love Zcash. But just kind of with like TradFi and
all these different things in mind, one of the big announcements from the last week was USDC
being live on Monad Mainnet on day one. I'm super excited about that.
I think that there's kind of like a intuitive,
like, oh, this is a big deal.
But I wonder if, James or intern,
you guys would like to elaborate
just like why having USDC and was it, is it CFTC?
I think that that's the other piece
other piece of the puzzle that's going along here and just kind of like what the what the unlock is
of the puzzle that's going along here
and just kind of like what the unlock is there.
there yeah yeah so it's um cctp which is like circles um bridging protocol circle wallets and
yeah usdc um there's a lot of big good things that come out of it right one is usdc is like
kind of the most well accepted known stable coin.
They don't just go deploy on random chains. Right. So there's a statement validation with it.
It's also become the main stable coin that like everyone kind of trusts and is used to using.
Anyone who is, you know, doing DeFi or trading on chain from like 2020 to 2023 was was probably used to Avalanche had USDC.E,
which is wrapped. It just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. It fragments liquidity. So when you
have one stable coin that people deem to be canonical, it unifies liquidity, makes trading
and holding value on chain much easier.
One thing we're really excited about on the Bonad Foundation side is payments.
I personally think stablecoins are one of the single best use cases for crypto.
James and I have the same opinion that dollar dominance isn't going anywhere.
Stablecoins definitely helped to spread that.
People all over the world just want to hold dollars.
They don't like their own currency.
They like dollars.
So payments in crypto is one kind of killer product market fit that I think expands a
lot over the next two years.
And yeah, USDC just allows that to happen.
Everyone knows the coin.
It helps a lot on the DeFi liquidity side and on payments in general.
I think Solana is probably the best or most well positioned to dominate the payment space
because they're fast and cheap.
But Monad also has those traits.
So there's no reason that Monad shouldn't be one of the dominant chains people are using
for payments in a year's time.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, I think that stablecoins are just one of those things that if you want to convince,
say, your cozy that your father-in-law, that crypto is not a scam, you just go right to
stablecoins.
You're like,
listen, this is better than a wire transfer. I can send it anywhere in the world. 15 seconds,
one second, very fast, low fees. And it's going to eat payments. It's going to eat wires. It's
going to eat all of these things. So that's an exciting, yeah, innovation and awesome
announcement to have on the monet side. so yeah looking forward to that do you guys think that ucc um it gets to five dollars besides like 50 cents but what's what's the
probability of it getting to five dollars rather than like zero like it's higher right
definitely not higher
well people would argue themselves so they would uh they'd make a shit ton of money
yeah the arv on that it's like you would immediately it stable coins will not trade
over a dollar uh uscc traded to like 83 cents right and i want to see february yeah it was
2023 it was d-peg for like an hour and people cooked on those longs. But like, could it DPEG again?
If it DPEG, why can't it go higher?
Wouldn't DPEG do the upside.
So think about it like this, right?
Like USDC, you can redeem for a dollar.
Like they have the backing for it, right?
So you could just sell, I don't know,
say Circle has like 40 billion in the bank.
USDC goes to like a dollar and 10 cents, right?
They're just going to sell all their inventory
to knock it back to a dollar
and just like get a bunch of free money.
Because like they know the dollars are there.
So it can't, it can't de-peg to the upside KB.
I don't want to like kill your dreams on this.
I wouldn't go long USDC
unless you're trying to collect funding rates from doomers.
Can you just say USDC to $5 trying to collect funding rates from doomers can you can you just say USDC
to five dollars and then I'm done KB does yeah I think after life one spice looking to pump it
one spicy take I kind of have is I don't I'm not really convinced of the payments thing
um I know people say this a lot I like like the U.S. has what?
300 some million people, 325 million people. Like how many are actually like sending remittances abroad, that sort of thing?
I have to imagine it's a pretty small percentage.
You know, it's going to be immigrants, maybe a couple of generations of immigrants.
immigrants, people who do business, obviously, but on a retail basis, I just don't imagine it's
People who do business, obviously.
that huge of like an actual business. And I know for people that are people that are listening,
that might be in like a country where the currency is not stable or something that probably thinks
like I'm talking nonsense, but I'm just kind of thinking of like from the US sort of centric point of view I just don't think that there is
really sort of a huge demand for that and people already have Venmo and they have PayPal and they
have cash app and they have all these sort of things which are you know already free in the
US and connect directly to your bank account that sort stuff. So I'm kind of less convinced on that thesis, I guess.
We can, we can do a little blood on this one, I think.
So the initial like Bison MasterCard,
like handle essentially all that they,
they do about 2000 transactions per second for payments um
they are clipping fees on that right so like the user won't take it but the merchant who's
accepting or like um stripe whatever the person is that's allowing the card to be taken
is paying a fee and so monadad, for example, say sending USDC
was like a tenth of a cent or something.
I think, I don't want someone
to quote me on the numbers,
but it's like something like 1%
is Visa's rake.
And so if you were just going direct
peer-to-peer to like pay a merchant,
it's actually like it's fundamentally cheaper
than the current system that they have.
And I think that would eat, right?
So it's like the user probably wouldn't care much.
But you're not paying for the transmission of money, right?
That fee, like that one and a half to 3% that Visa match charges,
some of it goes to the bank, some of it goes to network, et cetera.
But that fee that you're paying is not to move bits around in a database.
You know,
only,
only a small portion of that.
It's for other sorts of aspects.
You know,
it's for rewards programs for the credit card holders that have better credit.
Right.
So basically that's a wealth transfer from,
you know, people with shitty credit to's a wealth transfer from, you know,
people with shitty credit to wealthier, wealthier,
better credit people, wealthier people.
It's paying for the risk of chargebacks.
It's paying for a lot of stuff that you wouldn't be paying for with,
with crypto. So does it matter? Like, are you going to charge back your,
you know, $10 happy meal at McDonald's? to charge back your you know ten dollar happy mill at mcdonald's
probably not but you know you wouldn't you wouldn't want to go buy uh some expensive item
or some expensive service and pay with crypto because what would your recourse be right you're
with a credit card especially like america express which has higher rates, higher transaction fees, you call them up,
they're going to negate the transaction.
Who are you going to call when your TV breaks after a week
after you bought it sort of thing with crypto?
So maybe that business develops,
but then the fees will be back to similar to what they are.
So I hear what you're saying.
Like basically you're saying self-sovereignty is not
necessarily something that people want even if it's touted from the crypto folks because like
a lot of times it's unfair comparison to move bits on a it's unfair comparison move bits on
a blockchain and move bits in a centralized database. And you're treating that one,
one and a half to 3% on the credit card is just moving bits.
And that's just not true at all. Right.
The credit card is credit card company is doing a lot of things for that
percentage. That small percentage.
They're also taking a rake though, right?
Like they're taking a profit because their business relies on that profit.
So if you cut out,
if you cut out the profit from the middleman,
then you actually are giving value back to the recipient and the sender.
Yeah.
It's not going to be the,
it's not going to be the credit card fee,
right?
Like you're,
you're giving,
it'll be cheaper for them,
but they'll be getting less service.
So you go and buy the TV using your USDC,
the transfer on Monad,
TV breaks, merchant
refuses to honor
the return period or something.
Right now I can call Amex,
say, hey, these guys are trying to fuck me.
They're going to go to their merchant
account and deduct it, or they're going
to eat it themselves, right?
Who are you going to call when you transfer that USDC
Monad?
Look, I hear you. I'm just saying that it's not the entire fee that is being spent is not going
into this like insurance pool for that. I think I use a credit card instead of a debit card,
right? Like there's good things that come out of using a credit. Once you use a debit card,
it's gone. Like it's very hard. The credit card you can fix very easily and this is basically putting everyone back onto the debit side with like with zero help
protecting yeah exactly like you go like debit card fees were mandated to be 25 cents or something
right or i don't know what it is it's it's a fixed number not a percentage yeah you don't have those
protections so you yeah you're paying less fee you should probably use
that when you buy your happy mail but you shouldn't use your debit card when you go and buy a
two thousand dollar fancy led tv or whatever right like you shouldn't you should use a credit card
right but i guess what i'm saying is like say the the i'm just gonna make up numbers for the sake of the example, but say like you're paying five cents or you're getting five cents of value,
but you're charged eight cents, right?
And that three cents is the profit to the firm for operating because the guy
who owns the company is going to make a bunch of money and they're going to
give money to their stockholders, whatever.
Like there is extra that gets scraped from that.
And like that extra basically gets taken away from technological advancement, right?
Like there's a product that disrupts the current product and it's actually cheaper to do it.
And that, like that's kind of one of the use cases.
It's easy to compute.
Just take the, take the profits of Visa and divide it by the Visa volumes.
And you'll know exactly what they're breaking.
They're basically pulling it.
It is somewhat of a rent-seeking business.
You sit there, you own all of these network effects,
and then you pull money from it.
And you can basically disrupt that using stable coins.
As long as the chain you're using is efficient enough to where like the send itself,
like you're, it's going to be slightly more expensive to move the bits around on chain.
But as long as that is less than whatever the profit is that the people are taking,
like it is a more efficient system.
So you, you end up cutting out the middleman. whatever the profit is that the people are taking like it is a more efficient system um so you you
end up cutting out the middleman the value goes back to the yeah the buyer and the seller um and
you end up with a more yeah i was gonna say the risk is also asymmetric like you own you buy a
hamburger your your at value risk is five dollars right you run a hamburger shop your at-value risk is $5, right? You run a hamburger shop, you sell a thousand
hamburgers in a day, your value at risk is $5,000. So the risk is definitely asymmetric. And even
blockchain kind of treats all this risk as sort of reform, and it's not. I could care less if
my $5 transaction fails or it's
modified in some way or included like i just don't care right i got the hammer in my hand
i've already eaten it but the guy who had the guy who sold a thousand hamburgers and now he
has five thousand dollars that's a lot of business and he cares a lot more about what's the security
of the chain and so i don't i've thought about this a lot i
don't think like blockchain really solves this problem at all either it kind of treats all this
sort of risk is you know the same and it's to some extent the same there needs to be some innovation
really to solve some of these problems so say so you could do it via non-business.
You take the rent seekers out
that are pulling profits from the system
more than the value that they're providing
from their services.
The actual micro-econ 101, that's the profit.
And then you solve it via automation.
Say you solve the credit side.
You figure out the way someone builds it in and like, it actually works in that scenario. Do you think that it,
like, I feel like you can disrupt the way the profits that these people take,
like that's happened to a bunch of industries over time. I agree with you, the services that
banks provide and all these things, like I feel much safer with my money in the bank and
having someone that I can call to say something went wrong in the real world and then they make
it better. I hear you on the pure self-sovereignty side and the risk that's involved with that.
So yeah, I don't know. If you discount that that risk it does get better um discounting that risk
is something you probably shouldn't do right now but eventually at some point in the future
you build that into the crypto side and i don't know it could that that's my view on it like i
i think there's a lot of well you could build on top of monad you could build a protocol that says, hey, you use our payment app, right?
It's not strictly transferring USDC directly from you to the recipient.
You pay us or something, and we pay the vendor.
And if the vendor refuses to honor the warranty, we will, you know, we've built an insurance fund, and we will honor the warranty we will you know we've built an insurance fund and we will honor that
we will honor the warranty or we will or we have a deal with them where they have to transfer us
back or we'll cut them off from our platform you could build that but then you're then you're going
to be back yeah maybe it's slightly more efficient than visa but it's not going to be like 90 more
efficient it might be like 20 more. So as long as people's expectations
are realistically set, I think a lot of the marketing for this sort of stuff just glosses
over really like what all these companies are providing. And they say, you know, they treat it
as if the value is zero. And they say, look, you're getting, you're paying 1.5 to 3% for nothing.
Well, that's not true. That's not true at all, right? You're paying 1.5 to 3% for nothing. Well, that's not true. That's not true at all, right? You're paying 1.5 to 3% for something.
Now, whether, what percentage of that,
what portion of 1.5 to 3% is actually their profit versus your service?
It's a question. As I said, you can look it up,
do back of the envelope sort of calculation.
So the other, and then we can put it to bed after,
because I don't know if Cozy or KB have other things
they want us to hit on besides just stable coins.
I do think the main reason that the stable coins for payments
is like bullish on opportunity.
Like we're talking about the US market
where everything is dollar denominated.
It is incredibly efficient.
And we're looking to shave
like BIPs of value back to buyer and seller. But like if you go to, I don't know, Tether is massive
in South America because a ton of their currencies stink. And like the value you get by getting
access to the US dollar and using that for payments is massive, right? That's not BIPs.
to the US dollar and using that for payments is massive.
That's not BIPs, that's percentages.
I don't know, if you're in Venezuela, there's a ton of value to that.
You definitely take the risk of, oh, this is self-sovereign, but if I hold my local currency,
I'm going to lose 100% over the next four months.
If I use USDC, I have a 1% chance of getting robbed, but it's much higher EV.
So I agree with you on the US front. I think globally, it has a much higher impact. And it's
way more than what the current supply of Tether plus USDC is. It's like trillions of dollars that
should be there. I think right now it's on the order of dollars that should be there i think right now it's at like
i don't know two on the order of 200 billion so i think that that's massive but i hear you on the u.s front i'm somewhat ignorant on that stuff i know for other for other countries in the world
like it's easy to open a multi-currency account in singapore for example right so like holding usd
holding us dollars in singapore is super easy you can your
bank account in singapore can have you know three different currencies in it and there's some
efficiency using their forex and trading and all that sort of stuff i guess that yeah where my
knowledge kind of falls apart is like is that offered in you know argentina or turkey or other
places which have had severe sort of
devaluation can and if it's not offered why not like why doesn't somebody step in with a
web2 sort of business then and offer those deposit accounts in those countries i don't know
i think it's either frowned upon or explicitly illegal in a lot of them because like the
government wants to control the currency um so maybe that's where your regulatory arbitrage comes back into play there we go
james's thesis is fulfilled you're just going back to the pmf with crypto as regulatory
there you go it has allowed the things that the government doesn't want you to do
okay okay i will jump in i will jump in shout out to Sailor Nini. She told me I had
to ask something crazy, but I'm, I'm truly, I'm still trying to think of something crazy. I do
have some ideas of other directions we could go, but wait, but I thought I might be wrong here. I
thought if I buy a $2,000 TV that James, I could just call you you would be my customer's support and you
could just roll the chain back for me i'm wrong here i mean what you what you need to do is call
veto corleone okay and he'll go down to the tv shop with his baseball bat and break the guy's
knees yeah you get a refund on your tv like you know you can always have sort of like extrajudicial enforcement
of these things
that still works with crypto too
yeah Rupido accepts USDC
yeah
I don't like I've
honestly I'm not surprised that stuff doesn't
happen more often I guess people are just kind of
lazy or complacent but
yeah
the government is there's this sort of illusion of law right
where you can oh you know i'm gonna sue you yeah but suing someone costs massive amount of lawyer
fees it takes sometimes years like it's just a sort of thing to say i'm gonna sue people all
time i mean there are some people who randomly sue for no reason at all
really but there's really no sort of like consumer protection that's you know and that's maybe the
sub like 10k range like anything you do that's under ten thousand dollars if the other person
like basically screws you over there's no there's no realistic sort of you know way to resolve that so that's that's where
the that's where the visas and the master cards and all these other things sort of step in paypal
you know they have the dispute resolution they have all this sort of thing so
yeah but yeah i think you just drive by like 3 a.m. and just throw like a all-time cocktail or something.
You got your $2,000.
You got $2,000 of satisfaction, right?
You know, you paid the $2,000.
All you want is $2,000 of satisfaction.
And that's the new community lead on crypto teams is like your bouncer that you send to go and do your dirty work.
Like you guys have already got like John
W. Rich kid on the payroll
you can just put him to work
good
I think I wouldn't do it
he might be
the one that yeah you're like John
go in and wake him up he runs in
then you throw them off cocktail
he'd be like John knock on the door and see
if they have a gun
they're like yo send tiny tunes in there send the little And you throw them off cocktail. It'd be like, John, knock on the door and see if they have a gun.
They're like,
send tiny tunes in there.
Send the,
send the little four foot 11 guy.
Just go see what they do.
Oh man.
Good.
Good.
Well,
Nini,
I really,
I do want to ask something crazy, but I,
we don't have a ton of time and I want to,
I think we kind of go maybe some like rapid fire questions here.
So maybe we just spend a few minutes on each of these.
I feel like a good direction to go.
I don't want to get too polemical.
Well, maybe I do, but we want the blood.
But really, this was one that we had thought about was something like, where do you guys
think that Ethereum goes from here?
Like, do you guys have a good read on, you know, there's new co-executive directors that
are coming in.
Obviously, some vibe shifts and things.
Vitalik got ratioed yesterday for saying that prediction markets on people getting pregnant
or not by the CEO of X were, you know, dignified or otherwise.
But yeah, do you guys have any kind of read on like where ethereum goes and maybe some diverging uh thoughts on that regard yeah like i think
i tweeted this for like i just don't understand why people care about the price of e
like why do you care it's fifteen hundred dollars maybe it's a thousand dollars maybe it's three
thousand dollars like why do you care like unless you own it. Because we own it, James.
Because they bought it at $4,000.
That's why they care.
Set yourself free.
Dump it.
And then you'll never worry about the price ever again.
What's your investment thesis for going on?
Why should ETH be worth you know i think
talk about this today right like eath is what 200 billion or something
yep like why why why what what is your what's your rationale for why ethereum FDV is $200 billion? Do you want me to justify this?
Yeah, what are the
ETH revenues?
What fundamental analysis
tells you ETH should be worth $200 billion?
Alright, so
here is my take on the last
seven years of
Ethereum.
You kind of quickly run this course of Ethereum as a platform comes
out. No one knows what's possible. And people like to do this thing with investing where
if there's a new thing and you can do anything with it, then the value of anything in aggregate is much higher
than the value of a few things. And so it's this new, never existed before, they have relative
value it to Bitcoin. They're like, well, Bitcoin is worth all this money. Ethereum can do more
than Bitcoin. You can build financial applications on it. Everyone buys into this vision and this dream
that is possible. And that runs price up a ton. And then you get the next bull run in 2020, 2021,
where Bitcoin is going through the roof. There are actually things that are being built on Ethereum
now, and it feels like the tip of the iceberg where you have like DeFi, you have stable coins finally coming out and getting much larger.
I mean, it just has this feeling of like Ethereum was the first mover. There's a ton
of development being done on it. It's gonna win. And like, what is the internet of money
worth? Probably way more than what anyone else thinks it's worth because no one really knows
about this chain yet. It's like, there's a million people who know what's possible here,
and I'm just going to buy a ton of it. And that causes price to go up a ton.
And then you kind of have this burden of proof now of like, well, is it actually that good?
What is actually being built? And not a lot of new
stuff comes out after like DeFi, NFTs, stable coins. Solana also is just like eating its lunch
on performance and a bunch of other stuff. And then you just see this happen over the next three
years to where we are today, where it's like Solana seems like it's better at pretty much
anything that people actually want to do.
It's going to be better for stable coins.
Like the president
of the United States chose Solana
to launch his meme coin.
Yeah, but enter, enter,
you're just saying a bunch of qualitative stuff.
Give me numbers.
This feels like that's going to be this.
I'm explaining the price action.
Yeah, but things should be based on, I think the people that are buying eth can't do math right like what is the what are the market caps what what's the global sort of equity market cap
what is the global sort of all assets in the world right if i google this right now uh it says 809
trillion dollars right if you add up basically every single asset if you if i google this right now uh it says 809 trillion dollars right
if you add up basically every single asset if you could sell the planet earth to an alien
right yeah it's a quadrillion dollar so you know at that at that valuation you know ethereum is
two bits right so if ethereum is just a way of moving, recording the movement of assets, the ownership of assets, transfer of assets, does two BIPs seem like a reasonable number?
So is that the thesis?
And even under that thesis, then Ethereum would never be worth any more than it is today.
At a quadrillion dollars market cap i'm gonna sell
ethereum that is my that is my thing ethereum is your is your is your you know your swift your
your visa it's the it's the thing that records and basically allows the transference of assets
so it has to what is that what does that work Maybe this is a good fundamental, I don't know if disagreement, but like maybe when
we go back and forth on, so the way that it works, right?
Like if you, it's basically how much money it's similar to like the 51% attack on Bitcoin.
Like how much money would it take to steal the things that exist on the chain?
And how much profit do you get by stealing them?
So if you had a trillion dollars that existed on Ethereum,
the market cap of Ethereum has to be high enough
to where someone couldn't buy enough of the stake
to give themselves all of the assets and steal it. evaluation that's you're working backwards like that's you know let's say
there's a trillion dollars of assets on ethereum the chain is now trade ftv is 200 billion you know
that's 20 so you're forgoing you're forgoing the usage the productive usage of 20 of the assets
You're foregoing the usage, the productive usage of 20% of the assets to secure the remaining 80%.
It just doesn't make sense.
Well, it has to be high enough.
You're almost not because it's like those assets aren't actually...
They're created from thin air.
It's not like you're putting capital there instead.
The current supply exists and people are buying and selling it. And if people decide the number they want to buy and sell at is much higher,
like that doesn't mean that there's less productive assets in the world, right? It's just
the amount of money. Maybe I am, maybe you agree on that, but I'm just saying like,
if like, basically think about it like this, say there's a bank that exists and there's
a billion dollars in it.
And I'm like, Hey James, I figured out how to rob this bank and it's going to cost us
a million dollars to rob it.
But we get a billion dollars if we do it.
Like you, you make that trade.
And so it has to cost more to rob the bank than the amount of assets in the bank.
Yeah.
And the fee is too high like the
you can't rob the usdc usdt because on ethereum it's not securing those like they can they can
decide what they want right so they don't have to they have no no besides reputational risk there
and then you have ethereum itself and then you have a bunch of other coins, right?
And for all those other coins, basically Ethereum is going to say,
if any sort of hack happens like that at this point,
they're going to say, you're on your own, too bad.
Right.
I'm just saying like that, you're asking me to justify the valuation.
Like that is probably the main way that I would do it,
is you're saying, okay, if this is the internet of finance
and it's going to secure all of these out, like all the stocks, all the real estate,
whatever in the world, and people agree that this is proof, then like, it has to be high
enough that you can't, it has to cost more to steal the stuff than the amount of stuff
it has to cost more to steal the stuff than the amount of stuff that's actually on there
that's actually on there.
otherwise that's way worse than a judge who can order uh you know a remedy which is enforced by
an army which is much cheaper than 200 billion dollars you know how many you know how many
soldiers i can hire for 200 billion dollars i can hire a huge army like i don't need i don't need to
lock that value up in some chain like that's just it's just a
ridiculous valuation i think what it what 99 of valuation is or more is speculation and speculation
from people who can't do math or the greater fool sort of theory like ethereum probably with its
current activity level and assets should be worth like maybe one thousandth of what its value is.
But the only people that are bothered by that
are people who own Ethereum.
I use Ethereum every day.
I don't care
what the price of Ethereum is
unless it gets outside some range.
I fill up my car
once a week, once every two weeks,
I don't care what the price of barrel of oil is,
as long as it's within some reasonable range.
Sure, if Ethereum goes to a million dollars tomorrow,
then I might reevaluate myself using Ethereum.
But if it doubles tomorrow, it goes to $3,000.
It's still relatively sort of cheap and serving its purpose.
So I guess maybe where people see that it's like,
whatever the price is, it will definitely
be worth more in the future.
And again, this is not my view, but explaining what it is.
So there for a long time, especially in 2021, when prices were much higher, right, when
it was worth like 500 billion.
The thesis was like, one, it secures the chain.
So exactly what we just talked about, right?
It has to be high enough that it costs more to rob the bank than the assets on the bank.
And then also that ETH itself is money.
And that will be the currency used to transact.
Basically taking Bitcoin's thesis and saying this is Bitcoin, but objectively better.
In which case, then you're doing the US dollar won't exist, Bitcoin won't
exist, Ethereum will actually be the currency. And what is that worth? I don't know, but probably
higher than here because only 2 million people hold this thing. And if this thesis comes true,
then a billion people will hold it so other people have to buy. And so if that is the currency that you're exchanging into, then
it's much higher. And so you have basically people when they do their math to decide to
invest in that, right? It's like, all right, well, this thing, even if there's a 5% chance
that all of finance moves to Ethereum, it has to be much higher than that. And then
you're like, well, if I believe ETH is money, then it's going to be much higher than that and then you're like well if i believe eth is money then it's going to be much higher as well um so yeah it's just like when you add those things up
it's worth a lot um obviously that is not true but like that is that is the thesis i guess
yeah if you roll 20 side dice you know 20 times and get one every time then
Like then you're like, I don't know. It's just
It's nonsense, but I'm actually defending sort of like I don't know if you realize this But I'm actually defending like a theory and foundation and bill like it's that like I just think like all these posts about
Why isn't he's going up dude? Why are you commenting on this?
Tiffany Fong thing?
You should be looking about ETH price.
I just don't think it matters.
It only matters if you own a significant amount of ETH.
Those are the only people who care about the price of ETH.
That's a lot of people in crypto.
And so that's like,
I would wager that the majority of people
that hold anything outside of just Bitcoin hold Ethereum.
And so on their side, I don't think that they're...
Well, bitching on Twitter about it is not going to solve the problem.
I'm not deciding.
It's the prices of what it was three years ago.
The rational action is to move on.
You got Stockholm syndrome or something?
Move on.
It's not it's you know
complaining like dude if i send letters to uh what's the guy tim cook or whatever every year
because apple stock's not going up you think it's going to make a difference like it's just not
i they i guess the the thing that the majority the consensus view of frustration of why people
are mad that it's not going up
is because if they were getting more product market fit,
then they believe more people would use it
and buy into Ethereum.
And like that drives price to go up.
And Ethereum is just seeing none of that.
And they're saying that the L1 doesn't scale
and that's fine.
Like L2s are fine.
That was our thing.
Now they're pivoting on their back foot and it's
like the entire vision and the reason that they bought eath in the first place has completely
unraveled and like they're upset about it so i agree with you like bitching at metallic doesn't
do anything but like that that is that is what you know that's what's happening in the jungle
almost all crypto is overvalued except for maybe bitcoin so like if you're you know, that's what's happening in the jungle. Almost all crypto is overvalued except for maybe Bitcoin.
So like if you're, you know, it fulfilling its promise is more of it moving into the price that it's already at rather than the price.
Like if you're investing in something that's speculative, right?
something that's speculative, right? And you think this, I'm speculating. I think this thing in the
And you think this, I'm speculating.
future is going to be an important part of the economy or the world or whatever. And so a lot
of people like you think the same way. And so you all collectively buy from each other,
keep pushing the price up. But that thing hasn't yet fulfilled that sort of speculative
value as it starts to fulfill that speculative value the price shouldn't keep going up the price
should basically stay the same right or not go down and because it's actually fulfilling like
what you thought it was going to do you bought it thinking it was going to do something and now it
doesn't like it shouldn't
be rewarded for that it was already rewarded because everyone speculated and so like eth
eth continuing to fill its promise doesn't mean the price should go up at all well you know it
just probably should stay the same or stay stable the the other side of that would be you're betting on a trajectory for how much it fulfills that
and any other serendipity that makes it worth more in the future.
Like, for example, Tesla was the first stock I ever bought in 2017.
And its P ratio is like, I don't know, like 200 to 1, right?
know, like 200 to one, right? It's not worth a thing. And it, my bet wasn't that, um, Tesla would
It's not worth a thing.
just fulfill, you know, its market share of the car market. And then that would be that. And so
price shouldn't move at all. I bought it because I thought it would do that. And then it would
actually do a lot more things that other people hadn't priced in yet. And so as it continued to
beat that trajectory, like people update their models and price it higher. And so as it continued to beat that trajectory, people update their models
and price it higher. And so I think in Ethereum's sense, it's like people had this general trajectory,
they thought it would actually do even more than what most people thought, so it should be priced
higher, so they buy. And then not only did it not fulfill the expectation, it's actually done
much worse than what they expected to be done by 2025.
And so then price is nuking and then everyone feels whatever hoodwinked or they just have like buyer's remorse.
But like, but yeah, but you weren't hoodwinked.
Like your buyer's remorse maybe, but that's on you, right?
Like you miscalculated and it didn't fulfill what you in your mind thought it was going to do,
and now you're mad at the person, that's in your head.
That's not on the person who's building the system.
That's not on Videlix's head.
He didn't tell you to buy it.
Videlix, as far as I know, has never tweeted,
ETH is a good value at $3,000.
He said, I'm building a system, and we'll see how it plays out.
Right.
I mean, you can put
some small percentage
on the person, but I, listen, I agree
with you. It's a stoic take, though,
and you're asking for stoicism on crypto
Twitter where the most outrage
possible is what gets rewarded with views.
I would
also say there's some
outrage like people are upset but like your median person isn't like flaming vitalik all day every day
and piss like i think your median person is it's just the people that we see on twitter
are what we think everyone is upset about and like i don't know like i i've held eef since 2017
and like i'm bummed that my mom was buying at 4 000 in 2021 and it's gone down but i'm not like
blaming vitalik and dms and sending hate mail right you just kind of accept it's like when
you make a bad investment that's just what it is. How's your Tesla stock doing down 50% from the peak?
It's down 50%.
I don't know.
I mean, look at the chart from 2017.
Also, I was basically full port Tesla, Bitcoin, and AMD,
which is like the younger brother for NVIDIA.
So if I just held those, I actually would have been doing very well.
I have held them, but I bought other stuff instead.
Okay, okay.
I'll just jump in.
I'll just jump in with,
I'm just going to add the green tea,
red wine mix at like an 85-15 ratio here.
Just bring the temperature down.
Good ETH discussion.
Really good.
I think, James, one of the things that you said said i wonder uh in turn if you would agree with this like do you think that
everything in crypto is overpriced by like a hundred or a thousand percent no i i don't think
so james and i disagree on that but like that's fine i understand where he's coming from i mean i think some stuff
is overpriced by infinite infinite percent right like 100 it should go to zero
but you know that's the yeah i don't think that everything's super over i i kind of like
bitcoin simply so i don't really lump big cleaning with that.
Utility sort of network.
One of the questions that we had that I thought could be a good place to go,
and I don't know how much we disagree,
but I still think it's maybe good to just kind of like flip the script a little bit here.
Like what are the things that you guys see that kind of stick out to you as
being like particularly interesting that are like being done on chain? Like we've talked a lot about things that maybe like, yeah, like maybe stable coins
aren't like surefire one to one replacement for payments. There'll be some different use cases
there. We talked about maybe being overpriced, maybe not. What are the things that kind of like
stick out to you guys? It's like, oh, this is something that's actually utilizing
like the blockchain in like a helpful way.
Or this seems like particularly interesting to me.
It could be even in like a Monad context too.
Like, oh, I wish this was something
that was being built on Monad.
I don't know.
Anything that kind of sticks out to you guys in that regard?
Yeah, you go for it james uh it's just i you know one of the main
i think one of the main benefits of blocking is the composability of like different protocols
and um you know that you know like yield farming you're looping this you know you're borrowing
there's there's multiple protocols
involved there are different teams they're different you know implementers different
marketing and they all sort of like integrate together i don't think that is a lot harder to do
in traditional sort of space you know people have to strike deals. There's lawyers involved. There's just a lot of stuff that has to happen to have that, like, happen in traditional sort of, you know, finance or other industries to, like, compose all those things together.
And in crypto, it's just literally permissionless.
So as somebody who uses that sort of stuff, and like I said, I'm not really using it right now because everything because everything's kind of just like dying down right now in terms of yields and stuff but in some of you uses that
stuff like that i think that's super cool like that people can just build things and they can
just leverage you know all these different protocols to build and and everyone's kind of
like concerned with their own specialty, their own area of expertise.
It all just comes together in a permissionless way.
You don't need permission.
You don't need lawyers.
You don't need any sort of thing.
Sometimes there's co-marketing deals and stuff like that, which is great.
Everybody's working together to market stuff explain why all these things work together,
like adds value. But to me, I like that is the stuff that personally sort of amazes me. And
you know, there's other sort of, I'll let, I'll let Enron go with what he was thinking about.
Yeah. I, I'm a big believer on the stable coin side. I do think that that product market fit,
it makes too much sense.
It's too disruptive to not work.
It takes a lot of elbow grease to get the adoption.
I think that that's really good.
I think capital efficiency
and some of leverage
that you can get permissionlessly on chain,
you just can't get elsewhere. Like people usually blow themselves up with it. But like,
I think that it's kind of your choice to do that. I think capital formation, so like ICOs or
something that resembles ICOs are probably not good. Or maybe the way the system should be built up, it might speed up the amount of
capital that goes from dumb investor to sophisticated investor, which that part definitely
stinks. But I think a free market approach is probably right there. I also think that NFTs, maybe this is a hotter take, but I think that NFTs and the internet flex side of thing is undervalued.
People spend $100,000 on a Rolex that they wear.
So when they go out, the 100 people that see them
look at that person and say,
oh, he's right.
It's a status symbol.
And the internet just allows you
to scale that much higher.
So like that,
that was the reason I bought the CryptoPunk,
which has gone up in ETH
and then ETH has gone down
in an exorbitant amount.
So I'm actually down on that.
But like, I think that that's probably true.
And then I also think that there's some cool things on the gaming side.
I got really into that in kind of early 2021. And then a lot of people got burned. Tokenomics
are very hard on that side. So Play to Earn turned out to be a terrible idea.
But I think that anything where you are natively spending money on the internet for
something on the internet, crypto is a really good product market fit for. So Fortnite, for example,
you're paying the company 50 bucks to buy all these skins and guns. And then they could just
take them away at any point or like you can't buy and sell
them there's no market for that and like allowing a free market exchange of those assets that you
purchased uh is good and then like the the overall vision right like if you could go out and play
games and like you're wagering on them so like if i kill like it's almost like racing for slips
for cars right like if i beat you in the race i get your car like you could have
people doing like oh fortnite streamer wearing hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment
going against the other guy doing the same thing and if you beat them like you get his stuff i just
think that that is great i haven't seen anyone actually do it yet i hope someone does but like
i don't know there there's a lot know. I'm interested in the new markets
that haven't existed yet
that I think crypto
enables.
Kind of less on the...
And then, yeah, I guess to cap it off,
I know I listed a few, but I think tokenized
equities
probably happens under the Trump admin
and that unlocks a ton of capital that
comes on chain.
Yeah, those are my answers okay yeah if we can talk yeah maybe jay i don't know if you have thoughts on the tokenized equities james but i wonder like i was just listening to a podcast
today i'm trying to remember what it was maybe it was i think it was umcurve from Blockworks and the guys were talking about like whether it
makes sense or not they were basically bearish on like tokenized equities what do you guys think
about that what do you see is like the potential value unlocked there or maybe not well I think the
I think the risk from a decentralization perspective is that you get similar to stable coins, right?
Like, you know, basically the issue, somebody, some entity is going to legally hold, you know, the Apple stock, right?
And then they're going to have some, you know, ERC-20 that's basically going to represent that Apple stock on chain.
And it's going to be very similar to your centralized sort of stable coin.
So I think the risk there is if you're sort of a decentralization maxi, you might be concerned with that sort of thing.
Because if really, like like intern said a ton of
capital comes on chain it's all like equities people are putting their 401ks on ethereum or
that sort of thing you're you know you're you're really just subject to that entity which is holding
that stock and and and like the u.s a huge one is huge. The clearing company is like Apex, right? Like how many billions of dollars are they holding?
So like if they tokenize their stuff, holdings and all that stuff,
you know, like what would they basically be able to determine
the fork choice for Ethereum?
So I think like I'd rather see maybe like synthetics,
versions of equities, different sort of contracts, options or forwards or sort of derivative stuff on chain rather than the actual tokenized version of the stock itself.
Yeah, to add to that too, there's the initial Bitcoin thesis or part of it is if people want to turn off your bank account and debank you for whatever their agenda is, there is a centralized entity that they could force to do that. Or like, say someone becomes a president of the United
States and like a world war is kind of breaking out or they become a dictator, they control the
army, the army can basically go to the bank and be like, shut down this guy. Like this happened
in Canada, right? Like those truckers who were protesting, like they literally froze their bank
accounts. So like if they lost essentially all of their assets that they've ever worked to earn.
So they lost essentially all of their assets that they've ever worked to earn.
And so I think on that side, self-sovereignty, there are certainly downsides that come with it.
But maybe 50% of your assets are held in a self-sovereign way and the other 50% are in banks or something so that you can call the credit card company instead of Don Cullion when your TV breaks.
But it's almost an insurance against anyone coming in really messing with the world order
and then just being able to cut you out of the system.
If no one owns it, then you have that power as an individual.
And I do believe in that thesis.
That was initially why I got into crypto. There are a few different reasons that kind of an individual. And I do believe in that thesis. That was initially why I got into crypto.
There are a few different reasons
that kind of came together.
But that, to me,
is kind of one of the core value props.
So yeah, I don't know.
The vast majority of my assets,
someone could...
If a powerful person in the government
got pissed enough,
they could probably
just like take all my money away by just flipping some bits in a computer um so i don't know that
that side to me is is relatively important too that's why you need privacy right like no one
can see that you own you know this this synthetic apple stock like it's yours. And I think the real promise of crypto is not
to... This is another reason you asked it
earlier about government
legitimizing crypto.
One of the accounts
I love on Twitter and
I met in person is CludiNode.
CludiNode always...
I like almost 98 of
his posts or whatever i'm trying to there's probably a few i don't like but just guessing
but like the you know it doesn't it just doesn't like the point the the point of this is not to
get the government or big companies to endorse this the point of this is to take their power away, right? And that you shouldn't,
I think one of the main things in, you know, sort of human history is like, why are you allied with
your neighbor? Because when the raiding army, you know, invades the country you're in or space
you're in, they're going to take your neighbor's property, they're going to take your property,
they might kill you, you know, they're going to take your horses, your land, this sort of thing. That's kind of what ties you to your people is this sort of physical
proximity. And that's how countries are formed and so on. And I think portable sort of capital,
you should be able to shop of what sort of society you want to live in you know do i want to
live in singapore where i can't choose gum chew gum and spit on the street but you know it's a
nice place everything's orderly or do i want to live in new york where you know you might get
randomly punched by somebody but you know there's a certain level of excitement so you know it's
like you should be able to choose like your society just like you choose what sort of TV to buy or what sort of car to buy.
You should be able to choose that.
And the only way to make that possible is to make capital portable.
And this is the first time in – we're closer in history now than ever that you can actually move capital around, whereas historically people's capital was they own farms, they own land, you know, you couldn't move.
You were stuck with the people that you were basically neighbors with.
Those were your, your allies.
And so I think, I think that's the promise of crypto,
but that can only be accomplished with like privacy and other sorts of things.
Yeah. And to, to put the kind of bow on this as well, like, you know,
I guess maybe more realistic or concrete
example, right? So the AI thing is crazy. And like China wins that race and they come in,
they can kind of dismantle the entire financial system of like, take all your money from your
bank, take all the stocks and your Robinhood account, wherever. Like you can basically cut
the head off of the snake. then the entire body, all the people
like us that rely on that system, you're kind of screwed because they can just shut it off.
And so in this case, it's like if you actually have sovereignty over those assets, they can come
in and shut down the banking system, whatever. But everyone has this kind of other decentralized
network where you can still trade and do that.
So it makes society more robust in terms of like maintaining the value that you've created and earned.
Yeah, good talk.
Oh, man, that's good stuff.
Guys, I don't want to keep you too much longer.
Do you guys want to do one more debate topic or do you guys want to wrap?
I'm really, I'm good with either.
Well, I'm on a beer.
So if we're going to do another one, I think we'll get another beer.
You guys actually have to like debate because Mike Webb is coming for my head
because there wasn't enough blood.
Well, maybe that's, I don't, if Jamesames has another beer there's probably going to be a
little bit of blood um i gotta set up we're doing a fortnight stream as well so i'm just gonna as
james gets a beer i'm gonna start setting up the the fortnight side of my side but i'm definitely
down to to keep talking go through another question okay let's do okay um intern what
should we what i know you're setting up what should we
what is like a good cap is it what moves bitcoin price or ai what should we close maybe ai i i like
the ai one because james and james and i more vehemently degree disagree on the ai one um
the bitcoin one is kind of just like us arguing over semantics
and how much of it is gold versus tech
and I'm just slowly
trying to pill James I send him
Andreas Anticonopolis
videos on YouTube
to teach him about Bitcoin
but the AI one is actually better
to teach me
to teach you about Bitcoin James
this is a very important subject for someone in your position.
I think you need to take some statistics courses and do some correlation analysis.
Then you'll know about Bitcoin.
I know.
You already cracked that second from me after saying that.
All right.
All right.
Let's do AI.
So I think that kind of the thrust here is both like is AI right now answering the right question, but also like is AI going to impact the world in kind of like the techno optimist view? Right. So is like the world going to look even more than meaningfully? Is it going to look completely changed? I don't know what the timeframe is.
Maybe like two years, maybe five years.
Are we close to AGI?
Any of those questions, feel free to take it
any direction you guys want.
But I have a little birdie who may be a four foot 11,
a man who works in growth at Monad,
who said that this is a bit of a point of contention here.
Yeah, so James, you want me to just outline the
disagreement and i won't do it in a i won't do in a way that paints the picture um so it's basically
i think you should just make your claim okay i'll make my claim give your give your extremely rosy
bullshit view i will make my claim it's not a rosy one. My claim is just that
AI is extremely
powerful to the point
where I think the vast
majority of people don't even really
understand what it's going
to do and how it's going to impact society.
And I think it happens much
faster than
the average population
thinks.
So like my view is basically like, I don't know,
I forget when I put the tweet out, but I said five years.
So maybe now it's four and a half years,
like within four and a half years,
society will be almost unrecognizable because of all of the different things that AI has basically inserted itself into.
And I also think that the current path that we're on,
so like LLMs, basically like ChatGPT, Anthropic, Grok,
like these things will actually be the way that kind of AGI is cracked.
And like it becomes something where it's not only smarter than people it's so
much smarter that it's like yeah to the point where like most of the things that we think of
people doing now like AI will just do it'll do it way better and then anyone who controls the AI
actually gains an extreme amount of power over
like more power over the general population of the world than anyone has ever had before
and that probably leads to some bad outcomes i rest my case i mean leading to bad outcomes is
certain like people are already dumb because of tikt TikTok and other sorts of attention consuming apps.
But I think they're getting way dumber with AI.
Like it's equivalent of like using GPS to go everywhere.
Right.
And you you basically never learn the routes.
Right.
And so one one thing I personally do is I'll use GPS the first time and then the next time I'll not use GPS to force myself to the routes but I think like you know if you do Google search the thing that
pops up at the top is some Google summary and like I think that's probably
wrong like it's got to be like 80% of the time like it's just wrong like it's
constructing so these things are like this this math and this sort of
technology is very old it's from at least at least 1990s when I used to study it, maybe even earlier.
And there, in turn, I got in my, it's 1900s thing.
But the, it's basically.
Back in my day, when I studied math on pieces of paper.
I studied math on pieces of paper.
It's basically just like probabilistic sort of graphs of like words formation is what basically these models are.
And, you know, back then we back then we had this sort of idea.
This idea was well known linguists with computer scientists and all these people were trying to were doing this sort of stuff.
They couldn't do it at scale because computers back then as powerful as as they are now so i think like the in the ai innovation that's happening now is not
really mathy sort of innovation it's more just engineering like how can we pump massive amounts
of data into this and build these huge massive sort of models and all that sort of stuff. But when it answers a question, it's basically probabilistically assembling a set of words and sentences
that it thinks is the most likely sort of answer to that question by assembling that.
answer to that question right by assembling that and it's often not the right answer and you know
And it's often not the right answer.
especially i don't know what google's ai is but when you look at google results like you'll see
the ai summary at the top and it's like answering your question and then like the first result
immediately beneath it which presumably is the most popular or whatever result however that
that ranking happens like directly contradicts the AI above it.
And if you know anything, you know, that the, the article is right below,
the number one result is basically the correct thing. And the AI is just totally wrong.
So, so I think people are going to use this.
They're going to become reliant upon this and they're just going to be dumber than ever.
You know, and like, I do agree with the intern that like, it's going to have a huge effect, but it's going to have aumber than ever um you know and like i do agree with intern they're like it's going to
have a huge effect but it's going to have a huge negative effect so i um i and i i guess we should
start cutting each other off a little bit because they want a little bit more blood and uh
forget the word i'm trying to think of maybe if i'd chat gbt ask it could tell me the word i'm
trying to think of so you're talking about where it is right now though. And like AI as it stands right
now is not going to do that. It's like, as you add, as you 100 X the power input, like you're
going to get crazy results that come from it. So it's like, it's not what AI is right now. Like
it's really only been a thing that people cared about in their day-to-day
lives for like a year,
four years from now,
it's going to be so much farther.
Like how much more right is the answer Gemini is giving right now on Google
than it was a year ago.
They're like,
it's night and day.
It's like a hundred times better.
And like,
you can do orders of magnitude over and over again to the point where it's so much better.
You can't do orders of magnitude because they're solving the problem by throwing electricity, silicone, whatever.
You cannot increase the electricity available on the planet.
Let's say AI grows to where it's like 80% of the electricity consumption in the planet.
You can't increase that by 100x.
You would need
to build
many nuclear power plants,
many solar panels.
It's just not.
You can't deal with it.
It's not even close to 80.
It's not even 1%, though.
If we did
100x from here, I think it becomes
15%.
They're not advancing the science. They're advancing the technology. That's a huge
difference. Whoever actually works on advancing the science is
going to be the winner of this race. They're not going to need that much electricity.
I hear you on that. I'm just saying you
can brute force the win here to the point where it's
like it almost doesn't matter how you solve it like the fact what's your winning you find a win
like to the point where um yeah in this case say like it's usa versus China in an AI race, it gets so much farther ahead
that you just dominate and can win a war
over the entire world
because your AI is powerful enough.
I think you can do that with LLMs
if you like 100X electricity
and let these things keep learning
for two, three years.
And I do think you actually do get to the point
where it's 10% plus of the world electricity are going into these models if it becomes a matter of national security.
You get the Manhattan Project for electricity.
These O-Limbs are a waste of time.
It's not.
that's a crazy take no it's because you know at the end of the day yeah you can influence
That's a crazy take.
populations but it's it's gonna be it's gonna be the um what's the palmer lucky uh
start of andrewal right it's gonna be andrewals of the world that are gonna take over so i i
wouldn't worry the lm thing is a distraction a distraction. I would personally not spend much of my brain power on LLMs.
I would focus on your sort of andrewal startups where you have AI killer robots.
And AI killer robots don't need LLMs.
But they can.
You can do self-driving drones via LLMs.
And if you get that,
you win like you can't compete against that.
Well,
an LLM is a large language model.
It's for,
it's for language.
You don't need,
you don't need to speak to the person you're going to kill.
Right.
You just need a neural network that tells you that is the face of the guy I
want to kill.
And you launch your missile.
it's not necessarily,
it's not the words.
It's the way that they're doing the learning.
You can apply to the visual side.
Like, yeah, you're using an LLM.
But like, I can go and create a movie right now.
Like, yeah, it's not words.
But like, that's an application of the way that LLMs work and they learn.
And so like, you can extrapolate that out to the drone side.
Like, that's the chips thing that they're doing
and why Trump is doing this massive world war right now
is he sees that as a risk factor.
And it's like, if we don't get the supply chain
to be able to build these things on our own,
then they can cut us off, use AI, and then we're smoked.
No, I don't think... I've mentioned this example in the past like if you show a human like two cats or three cats and you show them a picture of an animal and you say is this a cat right like
the human has a very high sort of predictive ability if you show a neural network, two or three cats,
it's going to think a car is a cat. Like you have to show it a thousand examples,
a million examples. Right. And then even then it might mispredict. So.
Right. But a human, a human.
People are not advancing the science. The, the,
the killer robot is not going to run around with, you know,
a massive sort of neural network database sort of thing.
It doesn't need that.
That's not, you know, you can identify the enemy very quickly yourself.
You don't need a fancy computer to do that.
So I just don't think it's a future.
I think it's actually a distraction.
It's wasting money. It's wasting time. It's wasting machine learning engineers and data science sort of people, brain power.
It's just like a huge waste of time.
It's a huge distraction.
It's actually setting the machine learning and AI back.
It would progress faster if we stopped messing around with LLMs.
But it's the scalability side that matters here.
It's like for every year over the past three years,
you get about one order of magnitude efficiency on the training side
and about one order of magnitude more compute that goes into it.
So you're getting like 100x year over year.
So you're like, yeah, maybe you can show a human two cats
and then they tell you on the third one that's a cat
and it takes the computer a hundred thousand times but like if you can do the computer and train it a hundred billion times
like it's gonna be better and once you train it you basically just put the model into the computer
and then it's just better so like i mean you're you're just arguing that nvidia is a good stock
to buy which i don't disagree with but and if you're arguing open ai is a good stock to buy
like i don't know i'm not convinced right but i guess that's the i think that you can just brute
force it via compute and power and get to the point where it's like it's just better like even
though it's way less efficient than a human brain it is 400 million times the size but like there
hasn't been a limit that people have seen yet. Like
the data wall was this big thing that they thought was going to be the limit. And then
they like figured out that you can just create synthetic data from the data that already
exists, train it on that. It actually gets better. Like there could be a limit. It just
doesn't seem like there's one in sight.
Well, somewhere, somewhere in this planet, which I don't know, it's some little resource team, which is not chasing this dream.
They're chasing a different dream.
And when they get there, you know, it's going to be a zero to one sort of moment.
You know what?
I think it's probably...
And I'm going to call you and I'm going to laugh about your hell on.
You know, I feel like it's probably Kajash at Eigenlayer.
He spent all of his time learning crypto and instead
he could have been the 0-1 moment for AGI.
Maybe it's you, James.
Maybe scalable blockchain isn't the thing you should be doing.
My next endeavor might be.
There is no next endeavor.
Once you're in crypto, you're never leaving.
What if it's Sailor Nini?
That would be my favorite outcome in the entire world, I think.
If I could pick a single person to do it, if it was Sailor Nini,
the robots would come, but for like four minutes before they came,
I would be euphoric.
What if it was Bill Monday?
That would also be really good.
I don't know.
I feel like Nini would be slightly more entertaining than Bill.
Bill would be more entertaining than almost anyone else
I can think of, though.
How many people are still on this?
It's not going to be tunes.
It won't be tunes.
Don't bring up tunes.
There's definitely people listening, James but we probably we can probably wrap um
intern you're playing some fortnight tonight tonight dude is this like a stream yeah we're
streaming it in the discord i believe cool big time well that'll be fun um no guys this has been
great i think that we've covered a lot of ground.
I think we got in the weeds on stuff that is actually like super helpful and informative.
And we've had a great crew with us.
Honestly, hey, shout out to the Monad Discord.
Had a ton of fun ship hosting this along the way with the NADs.
It's been awesome.
Yeah, in turn, James, appreciates you guys coming out.
Ooh, okay. I should hit us with a, uh, okay. I'm going cheesy podcast host here, but, and I,
intern, I think I might've, I might've already asked you this question. So I don't want to put
you on the spot again, but James, is there any piece of like, it can be generic. It can be
personal to you, whatever it is. Is there a piece of life advice
that you would give
to the crew?
Is there anything that sticks out to you
that's been a mantra or something
that's just been super helpful that you find
yourself returning to here?
Any good life advice for the crew?
Don't use LLMs.
Don't use i mean what's that no i mean i post some of my life advice i don't know i could think i could just make something up
on the fly um but yeah i think i think the main main thing is like have your own sort of
Main thing is like have your own sort of conviction on the world.
Like don't outsource your thinking.
And you don't have to have an opinion on everything.
Stick to like what you know.
I think one thing that a guy actually was an MD at Goldman, you know, mentioned to me once, like don't focus on your weaknesses because you're unlikely to change those.
Take advantage of your strengths, the things you understand, and try to make money using those strengths
rather than trying to say, oh, I have this gap.
I don't understand this other thing.
Let me go spend a year learning this.
It's probably a waste of time.
I don't know. Is that a good advice? Yeah. No, yeah i don't know is that a good advice i don't
yeah no i i like it i think that is good advice sounds a lot like believe in something believe
in something newsy johnson so yeah man i'm right with you i think that's good stuff guys this has
been awesome thanks so much for your time we've been here for a long time we've gotten through a
lot of blue moons along the way so it's been awesome um yeah thanks so much guys we'll do it again sometime we'll get some uh good debate
topics maybe in a few months here we got to get we got to get the big man keone on sometime too
that'll be a lot of fun um yeah kb um i don't know anything anything that we need to bookmark
we've got a clob monster drop coming out tomorrow. That's going to be super fun. So you should definitely go flip some trades on Kuru tonight.
Looking forward to that.
Monad in the morning tomorrow.
Intern, is that real?
Monad in the morning is tomorrow.
Is what part real?
It is tomorrow.
That's real.
Yeah.
No, real.
Okay.
Big time.
That's real.
Oh, yeah.
It's all real. Well, yeah, real. Okay, big time. That's real. Oh, yeah, it's all real.
Yeah, guys, thank you for ruining me.
I can never show my face in the mana discord ever again.
Yeah, appreciate you, Kozy and KB.
This was epic.
Totally, totally.
There have been a lot of sexy Quetzalcoatls that have been dropped in the discord.
So I just want to recommend to everybody that you go, pop your head in,
scroll back up in the chat, lots of good
memes, lots of good
content.
So yeah, it's been super fun. Alright guys,
well I'm going to go home. I
missed dinner with my wife
for this. Definitely worth it.
She left a plate for me in the fridge, did
bedtime alone, so gotta get
back. But but guys it's
been a ton of fun on crew live with you this week we will be back next week we'll probably return to
our normally scheduled time at 8 p.m est i do want to run some polls i know i think we had a great
speaker crew tonight but i think that kb and i we want to think about maybe like is 8 p.m est like
the best time to run the space um so maybe we'll do a little bit of a poll here and see if there might be a better time for us to run these moving forward.
But it's been super fun, guys.
We'll be back next week with our market roundup and talking about everything that's going on with majors, memes and the monadverse.
So, yeah, looking forward to it, guys.
Thanks so much for being here.
And, yeah, everybody have a great night.
Thanks again to Intern and James, guys.
We really appreciate it.
Yeah.
