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KYVE - decentralized data lake & much more
Recorded: May 25, 2023 Duration: 1:05:56Space Recording
Full Transcription
Yeah.
that is interested in the data because then we have multiple people having interest in providing
funding for the pool meaning it gets collectively cheaper for everyone to contribute and get the
data um stored so i think this is like a very interesting mechanic i haven't seen uh much
around in the in the web3 space and this was also like the initial idea for tokenomics and then
well thanks to the switch to cosmos and stuff like this the the staking and the governance part
also came came with it yeah maybe double clicking on that one let's say we have a
we have a list of we have lists of symbols right and one idea we've had is to kind of
track them right as they pop up because believe it or not folks are using some of the same wallet ids
across uh anyway multiple communities uh so any and or we could of course you know look at the
first second degree relations and and which of those wallets that are likely symbols in any case
kind of put a uh a watch on them we would then be a supplier of a pool right i'm getting this
we would contribute we would contribute some and that would be split by uploaders and validators
right or or wherever else it would go yes this is this is correct yeah okay and then walk me through
how that kind of sustains itself so we would then of course have an incentive to continue to fund it
yeah maybe double click a little bit more on that the innovative side of that which which does sound
interesting yeah exactly so so as you say right like if you were so to say on the the data
what producing side right um then there is of course like an interest for you to keep this uh
like data stream running and keeping keeping it stored and actually the cool thing is also that
once the data is stored it's then free to access because we utilize rvi for example which has a free
to access model right so this is so this is kind of like the first initiative there and then i bet that
if you are building something with the data there might be something of a monetary interest also
for you for example which requires the kive data and then of course you could then kind of like
monetize that service on top of it and however you monetize it but then turn this monetization into
into kive tokens to further provide the funding or potentially maybe someone else like i don't know
edge analysis or something like this might step in use that data set and then if you at one point
say oh actually we're stepping out of funding we don't see a value in continuing this data stream maybe
then the user of your data stream steps in and says oh actually well we quite depend on that data so
let's let's keep funding it um and kind of like yeah keep the this stream going this is the the idea
behind this it's yeah it's kind of like a very simple like paper usage uh payment almost
yeah and it's getting towards this uh big term that uh we use on the use on the website public goods
right um because in a sense you you're creating an incentive for use case uh sorry for data sets
pools to be continuously funded and in a mechanism with very little intermediation if you will uh
potentially um if i'm getting it so is that when you talk public goods data is a public good is that
part of what you're getting at or do you want to yes of course i mean this is this goes i mean
especially for for blockchain data right like for bitcoin i mean bitcoin box zero looks the same since
many many years now i think it's around 14 years or something like that if i'm not completely mistaken
um and it will not change right and so why is it why is it gatekeep so to say right like like i always
have to pay to get access to to get to the bitcoin block zero data and and even if i pay for it i don't
know if if it is correct and so this is the cool thing by like setting up kai if you're turning this
data stream into a public good um and then you're really making it safely accessible for for everyone
and you also talked about governance and i think we're talking in that context really about the
slashing and and so forth my understanding is you're on a path as back to the organization side which
we haven't dug in too much but uh on a path that decentralization path right um and uh do you want
to talk a little bit about the dow or the the beginnings of the dow and how that is going to
work or is starting to work yeah yeah absolutely so we are using the right now we're using the standard
cosmos sdk governance model for it meaning that um actually so you can create a proposal and there are
multiple types of proposals one for example is creating your data pool or another one is changing
a certain parameter or a chain upgrade and then what happens is we have the validators on the
consensus on the cosmos chain it's 100 active ones and basically they have your tokens delegated and then
they carry out the vote for you which is quite nice it makes it easy for the end user so to say
to actually participate in governance by delegating the tokens to for example a note that well like
it's almost like a political party almost right like to someone that will carry on your vote weight
but on any single decision you can always step in and vote the opposite right so if i'm delegated to
for example the top note on the network and it voted no against the proposal what i'm actually in favor
for then i can still manually step in and change my voting to to yes instead of no for example
um and then basically this is already live and there is no way how we as a team right now have
like a centralized control over the network like of course we can we are the ones the most active
proposers of of changes right now but we have to get the the governance acceptance on that other than
that any change we want to make on kaif already does not pass and kaif is so to say on on that level
already fully fully decentralized um and which is something also back to the security thing was
very important to us right from the beginning to get this right because also i'm a big well defender
of the thesis that you can't decentralize over time right it's it's it's way trickier i wouldn't say
you can't maybe but it's very very hard to decentralize over time than if you start decentralize and
then kind of like yeah grow the the base out of it especially if you're an infrastructure um project
yeah absolutely it is delegation week uh it's uh you know anyway and i'm a very active uh gitcoin
delegate but we're talking uh obviously the proposals we're talking about here have to do with the
configuration of the chain uh itself and so forth um how about like budgeting how much you're going
to spend to promote i don't know this twitter space or i think things you know more uh on the social
wear side of things is that something that you're looking at uh as well because i think you're also
venture backed if i'm not mistaken yes we are exactly exactly so our backing ranges from um like all the the
chains and partners we have like the interchange foundation near foundation and so on and so on
but also of course um to to vcs um and right now basically the way like all social initiatives work
kind of like anything that involves uh like a fiat spending this is handled by our um foundation we are
based on a as a swiss foundation and this is kind of like managing this for now but of course also there
it is the best practice to implement um like that this will decentralize more and also the the um how
to say the actions they will be carried out by a um by the on-chain governance but i think this is
also the tricky part and i think this is where so to say the the real world or the legal world is
lacking a little bit behind it's like i think dydx is going is doing good steps into that direction with
the guernsey trust they're setting up but like how can you make sure to actually enforce an on-chain
decision on an off-chain action right like i mean we can we can for example let's say well
you want to sponsor a certain um conference and if governance says no in theory we can we can still
execute it there's nothing like hindering us from that besides it's more like social signaling um while
for all the tech changes which i would also say are more relevant to kive on an on a on an ethos
infrastructure side of things are not changeable right like if if the governance says no upgrade
proposal three is not going to pass it it's not going to pass there's nothing you can do about it
and so i think it's it's it's definitely like our on our roadmap to decentralize like every aspect of
kive especially also the the marketing and non-tech aspect but i think they're actually also missing
the right legal frameworks here in europe yet to to be able to execute things safely as well there
yeah that's yeah and i would just say probably even the best practices uh as well are a little bit uh
we could have multiple twitter spaces just about that subject right it's a it's a it's a bit more fraught
um as well uh as opposed to uh you know the core of what you're doing uh which you've as you said
already uh decentralized and opened up to and uh governance uh maybe a little bit of just blank
error here just for a second to really encourage folks to to raise a hand and ask any and all questions
right i mean you may have uh like me you may be relatively new to kive and you want to ask a
now what you know how do i get going type question or you may be uh you know you may be quite deeper
into it either way you've got two really sharp folks here who are committed to helping you understand it
um and again uh yeah i started playing with one of the tutorials this last weekend it was really good
materials out there uh on kive on their site uh it's kive.network i think uh if you want to take a
look uh but questions this is my attempt to get get the engagement involvement uh anyone want to raise a
uh raise a question
yeah kive.network
all right uh emmanuel and uh
they've been where where do you want to go i mean we we touched on a bunch of things
and i appreciate you being patient with me as uh it may have been a slightly random walk uh through
but uh you you've i i have done an amazing job articulating very clearly at least in my mind
what kive is why it exists what's unique uh where's it headed uh but what should we hit upon now in the
last eight ten ish minutes
yeah first of all thank you it was it was very i really like the the very chill vibes of the of
the twitter space i really enjoyed it it really as you said i can encourage us to open up the the
conversation i think on the on the kive part so to say we covered like most of it as you said if you
guys are interested feel free to check out like the dogs and the academy and other things to get more
educated and i think maybe i would be just also like now turn this into more open conversation
would be interested on also like your takes on the um on like the the education level right because
i mean this is where right now i see the biggest problems within the space still is well if you if
you want to go down like the full decentralization role and if we want to encourage the the decision
making there right we need to get the the the educated people about the the project
to make the right decisions and i think this is like something we we want to focus on in the next
upcoming month right like making a good job like educating our users and giving them giving them
the the the tools they need to to explore kive to uh to find out new things about it and also of course like
challenges the the the decisions that we with our very heads down view as the as the core team
have done so i'm also curious on like how how do you see right now is this
uh do you think we're heading in the in the right direction so to say there as a as a web 3 ecosystem
as a whole um or do you think it's still very like token money focused in that sense
i i think the web 3 ecosystem as a whole this is me personally um as opposed to open data community
uh of which i'm a member and founder but um but i would say that sorry to be so blunt but
collectively we're kind of crapping in the commons and uh we've done so and what do i mean by that
uh well obviously there's headlines uh you can all read those uh but in addition if you look at a project
spinning up something very valuable like an airdrop or you or spinning up a um you see quite a bit of
the same mistakes being made again and again and very few folks in responsible positions in my opinion
at least that i've seen or dow's maybe it's the collective lack of wisdom the lack of wisdom of
crowds have your kind of perspective on you got to start with security and the knowledge that you will be
attacked is a fundamental foundational thing i don't see that enough um but you see it some
and the folks who are doing that building are building great stuff and i think uh you know i
would show for even gitcoin moving from a centralized sort of sas solution for public goods funding to
a set of protocols as an example of folks you know taking their medicine albeit you know a few years
into the project and trying to do it right now so there are good signs but generally we don't have
enough education around this what part of what we did this last hackathon which uh just finished is we
amongst other things we of course encouraged folks to use uh decentralized data um
uh but we also had an essay which was an experiment so it was literally hey um why are we doing
decentralization and those sorts of things um and uh it was actually sponsored by true blocks uh so
back to the data layer and indexing in that case we had some really good responses maybe that helps uh
then we did a red team exercise maybe that would help it was pretty high level um but you could get
it you know less high level you know try to break things maybe that would be useful i i don't know um
trying to engage people and then trying to get the message out there that hey we need to stop
making the same sorts of mistakes repeatedly um and we need projects that are built from the ground up
with the notion that they may be attacked in mind yeah yeah i think this is and i use it already
perfectly i think my the whole favorite like quote in the whole cave thing that happened was from one
of our developers uh who said listen the only the only reason why we we're building decentralized is
because we assume that there's one person it could be the smartest person on the planet that just wants
to f over you for maybe even an absolutely rational reason right and you have to and if i think if you
incorporate that that thinking it's like okay like let's say there's like one person that's capable of
doing almost anything just because he wants to why like what would he do right i think this is some
something that we all like uh yes kind of like have in our mind so to say when when building kind
of i'm very glad like he he uh yeah he said it one day because this for some reason really stuck with me
he's like yeah shit he's right right like there's once once one person does something and and actually
like you didn't execute things super clearly um and and securely you you are you are screwed over
really in in this in this space which i think is also a reason why maybe a lot of projects still um
turn more towards the the centralized more almost like web 2-ish infrastructure because you have a lot of
control and it's easier to to um yeah i don't want to say cover up but easier to uh yeah so to say
to to to save the the sinking ship i would say um and of course it's fast i mean in the end everyone's
once performance right and it's so much more convenient to get my data indexed and fast and immediately but
it always comes with a with a downside on the on the other side so to say yeah yeah absolutely
okay so again we we've covered uh quite a bit uh you know one of the last things recent things you
mentioned as well as end of the day the data is largely there on or is there i should say on are we
the code itself is open source the ability to get going to create a pool or maybe to become a uploader
or validator or validator all pretty well articulated i think with hands-on examples in your docs
i mean it it's um i can i can see why i can see why you've got momentum put it that way um
and uh hopefully you're going to get and i think you will continue to get a bunch of users and contributors
um if you wanted to go back to the beginning again maybe maybe we close with that like
again why kive what is it at a high level and how do people get going and again folks you know raise your
hands uh we already did address the win token so maybe don't ask that one but any other questions are
welcome uh and uh baby and remain well if you wanted to hit again with you know what why do you why do
why are we building kive how do you get started uh maybe that's a good way to summarize and wrap up
as we see if anyone else has a question
awesome just checking everyone feel free to raise oh there's one request
um is this a request i think i've never been close to the twitter space i'm gonna try out if that's a
that's a speaker request oh you're done perfect yeah thank you hi church thanks thanks so much for
joining and welcome i think you're on uh mute it's not oh hey yeah i can hear me hey welcome
awesome and thanks for uh having me up again uh excited to be back uh remember the last uh space
i was in with you guys i asked you guys about kive so it's exciting to see that you guys got them in
here uh nice to hear about all the improvements and things that kive's working on uh just random
question that i had popped around in my head as you were talking about cosmos um have you guys looked
into any of the decentralized data storage options on cosmos just for like future options to expand
beyond our weave um yes so actually a paul who's also here in the audience or bd guy he's doing some
efforts right now kind of like yeah getting some some candidates and um like expanding into that
direction um we are also already looked especially into a bundler on our weave and then lighthouse on
filecoin to kind of like extend in that direction on the cosmos um yeah space in general i think it's
something that's definitely up on our roadmap um but also there as already said like we're fully open
source it's pretty easy to create your own storage provider integration so if anyone in the audience is
interested on adding certain support for something feel free to always reach out to us as a team or feel
free to create a pull request on github and we will make sure this this gets uh kind of merged asap
really um but no so like yeah we're definitely looking into adding more um like storage packets
okay so that's exciting so if people are wanting to they can kind of spearhead adding their own data
storage solution into your guys's existing process exactly it's also it's a one single script you have
to uh one simple interface you have to fill out you can also find it in our docs
um i think it's in the docs uh adding data to kive or something like that
awesome um one last quick question i want to i know we're getting close to the end of time but
um are you guys still adding uh validators for your mainnet launch or do you guys have your validator
set closed um so on the consensus layer the cosmos sdk layer um our validator set is already full with
the 100 nodes um since the start but i think you can of course i mean always spin up a note and still
participate i think it's the same let me just actually quickly confirm that for you on the protocol layer
i think there as well um and then of course once the um once the token launches then of course anyone
can join the validator set awesome thank you so much
well that was great great questions uh tricks and yeah thanks for joining again um
i feel like we should wrap be respectful of our guests time here and uh yeah i i think we're going to
continue conversations uh for sure uh you know be welcome to do some sort of workshop uh stuff we can
take all of that offline if that would be interesting and uh you know maybe we could talk about that um
where we where we get hands-on with some of the odc data sets and algorithms and guide itself
potentially but uh thank you so much this was uh this is how you build public goods in in the public
right so i'm inspired by it any closing thoughts uh baby and emmanuel and then we can wrap
um no i just thank you so much for all the the kind words and giving us the the opportunity here um
really really appreciate it great conversation um thank you big big thank you
i think emmanuel might be already on his uh on his flight he was he was already doing twitter space
i don't know if he's he's still out there sweet well thank you uh thanks again and uh this is a great
intro and and more so thanks off uh go forth and uh you know do decent decentralized data stuff and
have a great rest of your day thank you so much again see everyone enjoy your well afternoon for me
i think morning probably for most us people and if you have any questions free to reach out to us as a
team check out our dogs discord wherever you want you can you can reach us thank you thank you
