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⚛️Lambda Upgrade - AtomZone #01
Recorded: March 14, 2023 Duration: 1:20:00Space Recording
Full Transcription
What the hell is this?
Welcome, everyone.
We are waiting for others to join.
So this community call specifically, it's not an open community call.
We will have a guest and a host.
So everyone making requests now.
So the Radioactive session, it's the open community call where everyone can jump in.
The Atom Zone is specifically a community call with hosts and guests.
So it's basically an interview where we learn more about specific topics.
After our first interview with Shehan, we can open for community questions and for people
to jump in if they have any other specific questions.
Asia, we are adding also CryptoCito.
Hello, hello.
Hello, guys.
Hola.
Hello.
Okay, I will make a quick introduction to the call.
So this is the first episode of AtomZone.
The episode that we did in Friday was the Radioactive Session.
And the Radioactive Session is very different from the AtomZone
because the Radioactive Session is an open community call.
So we don't have hosts.
Basically, we don't have guests.
It's just a call where every community member can jump in.
While the AtomZone today that will go live every Tuesday
is a call where we have specific guests and specific topics.
And we discuss basically all the exciting updates coming to the hub.
And specifically today, we will talk about the Lambda upgrade
and the replicated security because it's coming tomorrow.
So we are basically doing a call the day before the big event is coming.
Also, yesterday was a Cosmos sub birthday.
So I will say it's a perfect timing to have a chat today.
One last reminder that tomorrow is the upgrade.
So validator, be sure to be ready.
You can find all the updates for the upgrade in the latest tweet of the Cosmos sub.
With that said, I think we can start.
I share the mic to CryptoZito for the introduction and the start of the conversation.
There we go.
Yeah.
So welcome everybody to the very first AtomZone spaces.
I'm really excited about that.
And also thanks, Rob, for pushing this.
Really, really cool.
So yeah, I think first of all, everybody makes sure that
you put the spaces on your calendar every week at that time.
This is supposed to be like the communications channel basically for the Cosmos hub.
Also, ideally, we have a lot of the teams that are working on the hub join
so that just everybody's on the same page.
Because I think that's the whole purpose of this spaces
is to reestablish a little bit of that alignment
because the Cosmos hub is quite decentralized in terms of who is building on it.
But yeah, I think today, obviously, we have a big topic,
which everyone is very excited about this, on this green day today.
So we're all hopefully in a very good mood.
Jihan, how are you, first of all?
How is everything going?
Doing well.
Thanks.
Are you ready for the upgrade tomorrow?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm actually going to be asleep during the upgrade.
But our team, we have about 10 other people will be monitoring it,
along with Notional as well, and other core teams will help.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe you can share a little bit what this means to you.
I know you have been one of the core engineers developing this,
working this out over...
I don't know, actually, when you guys started to really work on replicated security.
And maybe you can provide a little bit...
It's been like a year.
Yeah.
Maybe just share the journey.
Like, how was it?
Who helped you working on replicated security?
And what does it mean to you?
Yeah, I mean, I think that it was started...
It was actually started, probably work on it did start over a year ago,
like a year and a half, maybe.
And it started as a collaboration between the informal team
and then also the IBC Go team.
So Aditya on the IBC Go team was core in sort of working out the protocol at first.
And so we've been working on implementing it for probably a year.
So it feels really good to have it done,
although we did actually have it done, you know, like three weeks ago.
But obviously, it's going to be good to see it go live and stuff.
And I think to me, it's like a beginning, you know, because we want to...
It's good to get to where we are
and have kind of thought through a lot of the issues and everything.
And now I'm excited because I think we're going to be able to iterate a lot more quickly.
Having this in place, having this base, we're going to be able to add,
you know, add the next steps for interchain security for the hub now that we have this out.
And then also, I'm very excited about the consumer chains that we'll be launching.
So Neutron is going to be the first one.
And we have a few other ones.
I'm not sure what the order they're going to go in, but that's going to be interesting.
And I think that's actually going to be like, that's going to be the real test.
So we upgrade successfully tomorrow.
That should be pretty easy.
It shouldn't really be any more trouble than the V8 upgrade was.
And it should be actually smoother because we're more on top of monitoring and stuff now
and marketing the upgrade.
But what's going to be interesting is when Neutron actually launches.
That's when we'll really see, you know, how it works.
But, you know, we have obviously seen, we've launched many, many consumer chains
and various test sets and stuff.
So it's not like a big deal.
But that's really going to be when it really becomes real, I think.
And did OnlyInformal develop the first version of replicated security
or did also other teams work with you on that?
Oh, yeah. No, no, no.
Not only Informal.
I mean, I'd say that we certainly did the bulk of the development work.
But it was also, you know, Billy Renkamp and Sam, who were at IG, Interchain GmbH in Germany.
They're not there anymore.
They're working on new projects now.
But they also worked on a lot from a product perspective.
And then also we, the Cosmos SDK team, Marco and Bez and others on the team,
they contributed pretty key features.
So one of the consumer chains that's going to be launching soon is Stride.
And so they're going to be the first users of the work of this particular piece of work,
the Cosmos SDK did, which is the democracy module.
And the democracy module is basically like Cosmos governance.
But instead of it being validators, it's representatives.
So that's how the Stride governance is going to be.
You know, they're going to be running on the hub validator set,
but have their own governance and their own sort of representative or representatives or governators.
So there's other teams, too, who contributed to little things as well.
So, yeah, it wasn't only us.
Nice.
So you said tomorrow you expect everything to go smooth.
Just another upgrade out of many that were happening over the years.
But then when Neutron proposed, I guess Neutron is then going to throw their proposal onto the forum shortly after that.
And then from there, sometime, I think last time I talked to them,
they said sometime mid-April or something like that, that the Neutron proposal goes live.
And then let's say, let's just assume Neutron goes through.
What happens to, like, what do you expect?
What's going to happen to the Atom validator set?
Because I think a lot of people had this concern, like, this is not really scalable.
It's going to cause massive overhead for validators.
There's going to be a lot of even big validators that will become inactive and jailed.
Like, what do you expect is going to happen when Neutron launches?
I don't think it's going to be that dramatic.
I think that if we were launching with, you know, if we were just launching 100 consumer chains at once,
maybe that would happen.
But I don't think it's going to be a huge deal.
I think that we've been doing a lot of research into validator costs
and speaking with a lot of different people about what their setups look like.
And it does tend to cost people a few hundred dollars to run a, depending on, you know,
depending on how they set things up, can cost between, you know, $300 to $1,000 to run a Cosmos node.
And it also depends on the transaction volume on the chain as well.
So, if you look at the very smallest validator on the Cosmos hub, they are, if you do the napkin math,
they're not making that much money.
If you just look at the commission, that's supposing they don't have any self-stake.
So, if you just look at the 5% commission, they are actually only making, you know,
maybe $1,000 a month or less than that.
So, for one consumer chain, that's not going to, I assume it's not going to break the bank for those guys,
for the really little ones.
But we are, you are obviously monitoring the situation.
I think that, like, as we add more consumer chains,
we're going to take measures to make sure it's not a problem for anybody.
And I also think that the Comet BFT team is doing a lot of work to make it more efficient
and sort of reduce the cost of running the nodes.
But one of the things that we're going to be bringing out pretty soon is what we call soft opt-out.
So, that'll make it so that about, like, 10% of the smallest validators, the smallest 10%,
which actually numerically is a very large number of validators because of the way the distribution is weighted,
they don't have to run consumer chains.
They won't be jailed if they don't run consumer chains.
So, that's one of the things we're doing.
And so, once you get to, like, the validator that's at the 90% in terms of power,
that's, like, validator number 50 or something, I think.
They're making, like, you know, $10,000 a month or so.
And I'm just, it's off the top of my head, so I might be wrong on this,
depending on the price as well.
But they're making, like, maybe $10,000 a month in commission.
And so, there, obviously, consumer chains still have to be profitable.
But it's not as much of a concern that, like, you know, there's room in the budget.
And the other thing I'll say is also that consumer chains are supposed to be profitable.
And so, any kind of, whether or not a consumer chain is profitable is kind of the same question
as you'd be asking if it was a standalone chain.
So, that's going to have to be something that the Atom community is going to have to sort of
look at the proposals and see whether they sound like a good idea
and whether they're likely to be profitable and sort of evaluate them on that basis.
Can you explain, and I know we've done this a couple of times on my YouTube channel,
but there might be some people that are not really familiar with the concept of replicated security
and how it differentiates to polka dots out there and the eigenlayers.
So, can you explain, like, when this feature goes live tomorrow,
like, how is the replicated security feature architectured?
And maybe also, if you can, compare to the other shared security models
that are currently on the market in production.
Yeah.
So, replicated security, it gets the entire validator set of the hub to run consumer chains.
And it is just the first step.
So, it's not, but, you know, I think it's useful.
I think it's useful by itself and it always will be replicated security consumer chains
even after we add other forms of shared security.
So, the entire validator set is running the chain.
And it's, so it's the full security.
And even the opt-out thing, the soft opt-out thing I was telling you about
where the bottom 10% can not run the consumer chain and still not get slashed,
that will actually only impact their, the liveness and not the safety.
So, I'm not going to get too into the weeds there.
But basically, it is mathematically, economically, the full security of the Cosmos hub.
So, that's nice because you know what you're getting.
You know how secure the chain is.
It's almost like it's multi-threading.
You know, it's like enabling the hub to run two chains in parallel, basically.
And those consumer chains also can, you know, have independent governance
and independent teams and stuff.
So, that's how it works.
It basically, I guess technically, it sort of, it sends the validator set of the hub
over to the consumer chain.
And Cosmos blockchains, the way they work is that they send,
they send a, they send a, a list of the validators to the consensus protocol,
common BFT or tendermint.
And that's, that's how the whole thing is like managed.
That's how the chain knows who's supposed to be signing blocks.
And so, that's just, it's just the, the, the replicated security protocol just ensures that,
just ensures that the validators on the consumer chains are the same,
same validator set as, as on the hub.
So, so, yeah, then compared to eigenlayer, eigenlayer is a lot like it,
except eigenlayer, eigenlayer is a lot like the kind of next version where we're
current, one of the next versions we're currently working on is opt-in security.
That's where validators can decide whether or not they want to validate
any particular consumer chain.
And notably, if you have the entire validator set running a consumer chain,
you can kind of trust that they're not going to do what's called incorrect execution.
That's where they just literally change the history of the blockchain in a way that's like
violating the rules and kind of just like take the money out of someone's wallet.
So, you can be pretty, you can be pretty sure that, that, that they're not going to do that with replicated security
because that would just be sort of like compromising the Cosmos hub.
But the, but the, sorry, I just had to move over to a conference room.
But for, for things like eigenlayer and opt-in security, you need fraud proofs.
So, with eigenlayer, they're, they're working on fraud proofs.
And with opt-in security, we're going to have to either use fraud proofs or, or another method.
And the same goes for mesh security.
And then Polkadot, it's a lot like that too.
It's kind of an older system.
And instead of, instead of fraud proofs, they use some sort, it's, it's sort of a, it's sort of a dispute system
where, where people kind of, or validators kind of vote on, on, on, it's like effectively kind of like an older form of fraud proof.
So, that's, I'd say the main difference, replicated security, because the whole validator set,
it's, it's like kind of very simple, and it's very easy to be confident that it's going to be,
that the, that the consumer chain is going to be correctly, correctly validated.
And then these other forms, they need to, they need fraud proofs.
They need to be able to check that the consumer chain is correct.
This is actually a very interesting point, because I think that with the interchain security,
now with the replicated security, we are entering a new realm of security space,
where new parameter will be discovered, because there will be competitors also.
So, it will be interesting to see how effectively this model secure the, the, the chains,
because replicated security, as you said, will basically replicate the entire security of the hub on a consumer chain.
And so, this is a lot of security, but other models still don't have this kind of,
of effect, because for example, mesh security doesn't replicate, doesn't replicate the full security.
So, that will be interesting to see how it develops in the future, because there will be more security models,
and it will be interesting to see these new parameters born in the space.
So, I was discussing the other day, it's almost like having the TVL for DeFi,
but this time it will be based on security, so all the explorer will have this parameter where we will have all this new feature.
And it will be very interesting and exciting, because the Cosmos hub, it's actually the, the first in Cosmos to introduce a security model,
and we'll have this first advantage, first mover advantage, that's, that's very important.
And also, regarding consumer chains, I see that a couple of community members are asking for updates on specific consumer chain.
I mean, the best thing right now to do is keep an eye on the Cosmos hub forum, because that's where the proposal for upcoming consumer chain will start to appear.
And I think we will see soon a new proposal appear, so keep an eye on the forum, probably already in this week, that, that's maybe, maybe some surprise coming.
Okay. Okay. Cryptozito, do you have any other questions to share?
Yeah, I think it would be cool, Gian, if you can talk a little bit about, well, first of all, before we move to another part,
I want to talk about the, the economics, economic incentive models.
But before that, I wanted to ask you about, as you were talking about validators and consumer chains,
how does slashing work? And is there any other potential risk surface for validators besides basically doubling the infrastructure for running new chains?
No, there, there, I, well, it, it depends on your viewpoint, how likely, how likely it is that somebody double signs by accident.
But that's, that's pretty rare now. That, that happened, there were accidental double, where people, you know,
slashed themselves with double signing, kind of, when, when Cosmos was first launching,
but there's kind of safety mechanisms now built into a lot of the infrastructure stuff,
and then also people understand not to do it.
Generally, people double sign by accident when they run two validator nodes by once, sorry, at once, by accident.
But, but, so the, there, there was a change we made to the slashing, kind of last minute, and we had, so, so to explain that,
it's, the, the way that the replicated security protocol originally worked was that the consumer chain sends,
would send a slash packet to the provider chain, which would say this validator double signed.
And, and, that slash packet would then result in the validator being slashed for double signing.
And, this, this has now been replaced.
So, it has to, the provider chain, sorry, when I say the provider chain, I mean the Cosmos hub.
That's just the kind of technical terminology.
But, the Cosmos hub has to receive the slash packet, and then it also has to be, like, ratified by government's proposal.
So, that way, it's, it's an extra, it's an extra layer of safety.
And, the reason for that is, is that, you know, if you had a consumer chain, which had, you basically have to have some code in there to be able to forge packets.
So, the, the, the consumer chain's kind of business logic would have to forge packets from, pretend to, to be the replicated security module.
And, that's kind of hard to do, but we found that it's not impossible.
And, so, basically, that's still, you know, is not a huge risk because consumer chains have to be audited.
So, it's like, it's not as much of a risk as installing a module on the Cosmos hub.
So, let's say you installed, or on any chain, you know, so if you installed another Cosmos SDK module, like Cosmosum, or Gravity Dex, or whatever, those modules could also unfairly slash validators.
So, in that sense, a consumer chain is not really any more risky than kind of, you know, a third-party module.
So, but we decided that, after feedback from, from various community members, we, we decided that that was too much of a risk, even that.
So, we, we added this extra fail-safe.
So, there's no danger to validators of, you know, unfair slashing.
And, what we're doing also, we're working on the code right now to cryptographically verify slashing evidence.
So, that means we'll be able to pretty soon take the governance part out, and then have it just cryptographically verified on the hub.
So, there'll, there'll be some, some code that will just be able to verify using the signatures, whether or not somebody had double signed or done other types of consensus misbehavior.
And then, that way, that's kind of the state we want to get to.
That's, that should be done pretty soon.
Can you talk about different types of consumer chains, and what they're capable of?
Like, can they run also smart contracts?
We already know that Neutron is implementing Cosmosin, but it's also possible that a consumer chain could run the EVM, or what can these, like, what are these chains, consumer chains capable of?
Well, you know, a consumer chain can run, it can really run, like, any, anything that a Cosmosin can run.
There's, there's no real limit, except for, except for, it does need to use, like, Comet or Tendermint or something like it.
But, because it's, especially with what I just talked about, like, the cryptographic verification of the double signing or equivocation evidence, that, with that, you would obviously need to, you know, it needs to, it needs to be able to have the same format as Tendermint and Comet use.
But, that's just the consensus protocol.
So, in terms of applications that can run, it's, it's, yeah, it's whatever you could run on a Cosmos chain.
So, you could certainly have, I'm not aware of any teams working on EVM consumer chains right now, but that's, you know, given that the Ethermint module exists, that's totally possible.
So, the, the, the community, the community is also asking if there is any update on the roadmap.
And, we actually, recently have released some, some alpha on the upcoming feature, like, interchain security, Boo 1.1, actually, replicated security, Boo 1.1, but maybe, Jeanne, can, can share more updates, especially, if there are still plans for ICS, Boot 2 or Boot 3, what is, basically,
what's, basically, what's come next after implementing replicated security?
Yeah, so, so we, we're going to be releasing a roadmap very, very soon.
And, that's, it's not like, I'm trying to go in a different, sort of a direction with it, where we kind of just, in the roadmap, it's going to kind of be what we're working on,
and not necessarily, like, the order that things are going to come out in, or anything.
But, I can, I can go over, give an overview, we're going to have a, probably release that on the blog, you know, this week or next, I think.
But, I can just go over it briefly.
So, so, yeah, there's a few things to make replicated security as, as good as possible.
So, that's, like, let me see here.
So, that's, like, the soft opt-out I was talking about.
And then, also, yeah, the cryptographic verification, equivocation evidence, just sort of doing these things to improve it.
And then, the next thing we're working on is just, is what to, you know, what to do in the future with, with interchain security.
And, so, that's either opt-in security, which is, like, you know, like I said, a little bit like eigenlayer,
where validators can choose which consumer chains they want to run, or, or mesh security, too, where we're actively,
mesh security is under, under development right now by, by, by some other teams.
So, we're actively following that and keeping up with progress and looking at it.
And, so, what we'll probably do, I'm not completely decided yet, no guarantees,
but we're probably going to work on opt-in security first, and then mesh security.
And, I think that, like, the thing about both of those is that they both need fraud proofs to be secure,
or some way of slashing validators who, like, steal the money out of your, out of your wallet.
But, so, that's kind of the big thing.
I think there's a lot of, a lot of security models are enabled if you have some way of slashing validators for incorrect execution.
So, I think one of the big things we're going to have to figure out in the, in the coming months is, is how do we do fraud proofs?
Do we wait for the official fraud proof frameworks to be ready?
Fraud proofs are one of these things where, you know, they've been six months away since, like, 2018 or something.
So, or do we do something else?
And, what you can do instead of fraud proofs is having some kind of, you know, like, like voting system or social slashing.
And, I'm not sure what, I'm not sure what the, what the other teams working on mesh security want to do.
But, that's, that's kind of a big upcoming thing to think about is, is, is how we enable these other security models securely.
Then, beyond that, I think we also want to do some work on governance.
And, we'll, we'll probably, you know, with this, the, really the Cosmos SDK team that kind of maintains, you know, Cosmos SDK and governance module and stuff.
But, we have some ideas on, on how it could be improved.
But, we, we kind of also want to talk to, talk to people who are a little bit more experts in that.
But, that's, that's pretty much what we got for this year.
It's just, it's just kind of making replicated security as good as possible.
Working on, you know, the future of interchanges security and then, then some governance stuff.
We already know, Neutron is the first one, which is a chain that's built from scratch.
But, we also know Stride is coming.
That is already an existing L1 that's in production, which is a liquid staking solution.
Has a market cap of around $73 million as of right now.
How does that, how does that work for like, existing chains to migrate?
Like, maybe you can explain that, like, with Stride's use case and then, for, for other chains in the future.
Yeah.
So, it's, it's actually pretty easy.
Stride has, the Stride team is great.
We've been working with them.
And, and they've actually built this feature based on our specification.
It's a sovereign to consumer migration code.
And, what it, what it does, basically, the core of the code is that you need to have the existing validator set sign over the control of the chain, basically, to the new validator set, which is, you know, the hub validator set, because it's replicated security.
And, once that happens, it goes into IBC client updates that gets sent to every other chain that Stride is connected to.
And, that enables it to basically kind of shift over to this whole new platform without messing up any IBC connections.
So, everything will stay seamlessly connected.
So, that's really the important technical thing we want to make happen.
And, then, the, on the social side, the validators of Stride will become, like I was, I mentioned before, that they're going to become, like, representatives.
So, they're still going to be active in governance.
They're actually going to do everything the validators do, except, like, on a regular Cosmos chain, except for run, you know, run the actual nodes.
So, that's another thing that migration code does, is it, is it, it transfers all those validators over into being governance representatives.
And, then, you know, people delegated, the token holders delegated to the validators.
They can still participate in governance, and the validators, if they don't vote, the validators are able to vote with their tokens, just like Cosmos governance works.
Okay.
And, how did, yeah, go ahead, Rob.
I think that, just briefly, you mentioned something very interesting, which is, basically, the nature of Cosmos Hub, which is dynamic, because, many times, especially in the community, people think that we are about to release an upgrade, and that's the, the end, basically.
That will be the, big things of Cosmos Hub, but, but Cosmos Hub is actually, one of the main strengths of Cosmos Hub, for me, personally, it's governance, because,
it is, it is decentralized, and so, can keep, basically, evolve with, also with the tech, and all the aspects around the, also the culture events.
And, and so, we are, we are now focusing on the replicated security, and, basically, what, what will happen is that, once the replicated security is launched, it will be the turn of consumer chain, and then, it will be the time to build an economic zone around the atom with all this consumer chain.
But, but, after, it's, it's, it's not the end, because, if the tech, keep going, we will just need to keep doing upgrades, keep doing, implementing new feature.
So, this is not, like, an end feature, this is just the Cosmos Hub, they keep evolving, and I think, it's something that, one of the main points of strength of this community, and, especially, the developer, the developers that keep contributing to this, to this, to this chain that is now four years old, and, it seems like it's been 40 years, but it's only four years old.
And, and, so, we have, we have, we still have a long future ahead, and, there is definitely a lot to be excited.
So, one thing that I also wanted to mention is, that, right now, replicated security will have its upgrade tomorrow, and, I think that, we can share the tweet related, because, validators will need to be ready to follow all the problems.
Because, the Process because, I think that, the process, because, steadfast, because, the upgrade is a historical moment, so, let's be, let's be ready to do the upgrade, because it will be early in the morning, especially, for the US, in Europe.
And if Odskur can share the tweet, it will be up here for anyone that needs to check it.
Okay.
Do you hear me?
Yes.
Yeah.
I think you were cutting off for a second, but I think you're back.
Okay.
Yeah, otherwise I can just continue, or did you want to add anything?
Do you hear me?
I think that I have some technical problems, but I should be back now.
I had some problem with the connection.
Anyway, no, no.
I think I wanted to mention that this article that we published yesterday to be ready for the upgrade.
You can continue with the question if you have any, otherwise we will open to community questions.
Yeah, I wanted to ask Jihan, before we talk about the economic incentive model and how does it change the utility and the role of Atom, just real quick, Rob pinned the previous comment here in the spaces from Stride that said,
Stride is the only chain currently in life that plans to adopt ICSD-1 or replicated security, which was on January 13th.
So that's two months ago.
I also saw a tweet from Tyborg that said, Comdex is also exploring, probably migrating.
Can you, like, is there any other existing L1 right now that is exploring or that you are in talks with or that have shown interest to migrate?
Yeah, there are.
I think, though, that's, we, one of the things is we don't necessarily want to, like, if we're talking with chains, we can't really, like, you know, announce that they're, they're coming until it's, like, you know, 100%.
So, yeah, there's also, yeah, there are, there are some that I know about, but they're not, they're not completely sold on it yet.
So, okay.
Yeah, cool.
So, yeah, talk a little bit about the economic, economic incentives models.
For example, is it mandatory for consumer chains to have their own token?
How does it work?
How is gas fees going to be paid?
Is there any value for Atom?
Maybe you can share, like, a high-level overview of that.
Yeah, so the basic way it works is that when a consumer chain, yeah, as a consumer chain runs, it basically sends some portion of its fees and inflation.
So everything that would be going to the delegators on, if it was a standalone chain, it gets sent to the, you know, gets sent to the distribution module on the hub and then gets distributed there.
But not all of it.
So some of it still goes to the token holders of that chain.
And so for the example of Stride, let's say, you'd have, you know, the Stride token holders and the rewards that are earned on Stride, they, I think, I'm not sure what breakdown they're going to use.
But let's just say it's 25%.
So 25% will be sent to the hub and then 75% go to the token holders of the consumer chain.
But, again, those percents can be changed.
And also, if you, there are some chains that, you know, like I said, are kind of an earlier stage of development and where they're kind of, they don't necessarily have a token.
And in that case, it can also work where all the fees and stuff are paid in Atom and as, you know, gas fees.
And then those go to the Cosmos hub.
So there's a lot of different ways it can work.
But generally, the validators and the delegators of the Cosmos hub get some, you know, some portion of the consumer chain's fees and inflation and other rewards they earn.
So the way it works on, like, an economic level for, if you think about the math for whether this has been a big topic about, you know, whether it's going to be too expensive for validators, et cetera, et cetera.
They do have to run, you know, another Cosmos node, which, like I was saying before, it can be, you know, a few hundred to a thousand dollars a month in terms of infrastructure costs.
But they don't have the cost of, it's like more capital efficient.
So, you know, the costs of, the costs of validating are number one, you know, the equipment, but then number two, the stake.
So being able to get delegations or being able to, with a validator to stake their own money or whatever they're doing, somebody is tying up money to validate.
And so what replicated security does, it allows that same money that's already tied up to get Atom rewards to also get rewards for, from these other tokens.
So that's kind of, that's kind of how I see the economics and I think that's everything I wanted to cover on the economics.
Yeah.
Maybe if we think further, right.
I mean, after or at Cosmoverse was this big Atom 2.0 announcement, which then went through the community and famously was, was rejected.
Um, but this proposal contained a lot of big plans for revamping basically Atom tokenomics.
Um, there was like a, a vision to, to basically get inflation down to, to almost zero, um, a big mint or like a relatively large mint, uh, to put into a treasury pool.
Since then we've seen small executions in terms of like, for example, increasing the tax rate from two to 10% so that the community treasury also has some, some revenue.
Um, like with ICS in mind, and let's say that there's product market fit, there's going to be adoption.
Uh, do you think that Atom tokenomics could be improved, um, to also make it a more kind of interesting asset?
Or do you think ICS is strong enough in the longterm to accrue a sufficient value for, for, uh, for its holders?
Yeah, I, I don't know.
I'm, um, I'm not necessarily, um, I'm not, I'm not as much of an expert on like, you know, economics and tokenomics as I am on, you know, like shared security and stuff.
Um, but, uh, I, I, I do think for me during the Atom 2.0 thing, the fact that the, uh, the fact that the, uh, the tax rate got increased to 10%, um, shortly afterwards, um, was, uh, thanks to Simply Staking for, for introducing that proposal.
So that was kind of, that was something that out of all the discussions and the debate around Atom 2.0 was something that both sides actually agreed on.
And so I think that, that, that was good.
I think that allows more, you know, allows for more money in the community pool.
Um, and, um, that was kind of a goal of Atom 2.0 was to, to have, that Atom 2.0 wanted to do it through this big mint.
Um, but it's just being done a different way now.
As far as the reducing the inflation, um, I think personally, this is my personal opinion.
So, you know, someone might say I'm wrong.
And then, like I said, this is not my field expertise, but to me, I don't know how much of a difference it makes.
You know, it's, um, if, if you're staking and the inflation rate changes, like, you know, the token's being diluted, but you're also kind of like making more rewards from staking.
Um, so I think that, like, there are certainly things like where, you know, might make other external investors look at it differently if they know there's a cap, things like that.
Um, but I think in terms of core economics of trying to have, basically trying to have a, you know, if you think about it, like, like having, having a system that runs and, and, and runs well, the inflation rate is not necessarily, um, going to be at the hugest factor if, if everybody's staking their coins.
Um, so in terms of that community pool tax, um, I think that it's, it's good.
It's good that we've, we've had the opportunity for the community pool to fund more projects.
Now, I also think that, um, I don't know, but I think there may be like a backlash where people feel that too many things are getting funded.
Um, and I think we'll have to see how it plays out and how voting goes on stuff.
But one of the important things for me also, and this is like part of the, part of the governance changes that, um, that, that we want to help with in the coming year, uh, is also that we have good mechanisms for accountability.
And, um, so one of those things, like for instance, could be like streaming funding so that a team doesn't just get a lump sum that you have to trust them with, uh, but that they, they get it, you know, um, they get something that says, okay, you're going to get a certain amount every month or whatever.
Um, I think that's a more healthier, healthier form of funding.
Um, and then the other thing is like oversight.
So all these teams working on stuff, it's not necessarily you need someone to like, you know, be their boss and have like one person or one group of people control all the funds.
Um, but I think that one thing we also need, uh, is, is kind of a culture of looking at these teams updates and kind of as a community deciding, you know, did they bring value?
So, uh, the Cosmos hub team at informal, we're doing monthly updates.
Uh, we're not funded by the community pool yet.
Um, but we, we, we're, we're going to try to get some or all of our funding from it for 2024 next year.
Um, but then also like, you know, let's say for the confio or, or notional teams.
Um, I think that the community needs to look at the updates these teams are making and kind of, uh, think about, you know, whether it's adding value.
And then also for the Adam accelerator, the Adam accelerator was, um, put together by some people who were involved in Adam 2.0.
Um, they're very confident people.
And so I think that, um, I'm not sure what their plans are right now, but I think that they're going to, um, you know, sort of provide some direction, uh, and, and oversight of different funding initiatives as well.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's also one of the main purposes of this spaces is to also, you know, have all the teams that are working with stuff, uh, join.
I know Yusuf could make it.
I think Bendy is going to join us.
I don't know if he's in the audience, but maybe he can, um, apply in a later, in a couple of minutes, we can bring him on to share the, the latest on the Adam accelerator.
Um, one more question, uh, from my side, I don't know if you have any more, um, but can you talk a little bit about the, um, allocator and the scheduler idea, which was also outlined in the Adam 2.0 proposal?
Um, I know Zaki has been a very big proponent of it.
Um, he also says that without that, uh, without the allocator specifically, um, the Cosmos hub is not prepared for the upcoming security wars with eigenlayer launching mesh security lined up and also Celestia.
So what are your thoughts on that?
And yeah, maybe you can share your, your take.
Yeah, I think, um, I think the, the scheduler I know more about, I worked on the design and scheduler.
Uh, or the initial design, at least that was an Adam 2.0.
Um, that's being, uh, right now that's, that's been taken on by the, um, by the skip team.
And, um, actually, uh, Sam, who also worked on Adam 2.0 has, has joined, uh, their team, I think as an advisor.
Oh, I'm not, I'm not sure.
I might be wrong on that.
Um, what his position is and stuff, but, uh, the scheduler was a lot around like MEV and, um, it was basically a system where, um,
the sort of the, the right to propose blocks on Cosmos chains could be, uh, could, could be, uh, could be auctioned off or, or assigned in other ways.
Um, and so what that allowed was first of all, to monetize MEV for chains to be able to monetize their own MEV.
And then also for, uh, if, if somebody wins the right to propose a block across several chains, what that means is that that, that entity that's, that's one that right can then also provide a synchronizing, um, functionality.
Like they can, they can make sure that if you want to make it, so your transactions go through at the exact same time on Crescent and Osmosis, um, that that happens.
Uh, and that's really important for sort of, uh, being able to, to, uh, you know, unlock like, you know, different programming patterns and also like different ways of doing arbitrage and stuff like that.
So, um, that's, that's still in progress and, um, they, uh, they're currently planning to, to launch on a consumer chain, but I think they still got a ways to go and a lot of development to do.
Um, the allocator, uh, I'm not as well versed in, I didn't work on that part of Adam 2.0.
Um, but that's basically a system to, um, it's basically a system to sort of not exactly invest in consumer chains, like just give them, give them money, but it's kind of a way to, uh, like for, for the, for the hub to, to swap like, uh, options or kind of long-term, long-term, like, uh, to lock up each other's tokens, sort of like long-term so that they're incentive aligned, but without there being like a grant of actual, like funds being given to somebody to spend.
Um, so, but I'm probably not the best person to speak about the allocator.
Fair enough.
Um, last question from my side.
Um, Noble has been one of the most highly anticipated projects to launch with the native issuance of UCC.
Um, initially they said that, um, they're going to launch with replicated security.
I think now they're actually launching their permission chain first and then still, but as I'm understanding, they're still in the race for,
migrating than after the chain runs, right?
Like they're not completely out or what's your, like, what do you know about Noble?
Um, yeah, so I, I can't necessarily like make announcements for them.
Um, but, uh, but yeah, what, what I can say is that the proof of authority thing they're doing, uh, that, that was always contingency plan, like, you know, from the beginning, really, uh, from, from when the project started last year.
Um, and, um, that's, uh, you know, that, that I, I think that they were thinking about taking that option, um, in case there were like a lot of delays, uh, of replicated security.
And there were some delays.
I mean, I think we did pretty good, you know, in terms of like, you know, in the grand scheme of things, in terms of like software and blockchain software, but we were delayed for like two months.
Um, it, we, it was, we, we launched like two months later than we expected.
Um, yeah.
And, uh, and I think, uh, I think that, uh, if I, if I can add something, Jan, I think that recently also, I saw also Jack's sample in talking about it.
And, uh, I think that the plan is still going on the hub, but like, uh, doing after this launch with the proof of authority.
It's, uh, it's, uh, it's like doing a first check with the first consumer chain going on the hub and then, uh, be ready for joining later.
Maybe, maybe we, we can have in the future also Jack talking directly and, uh, he can add something better about, uh, the future of Noble.
That will be definitely interesting.
I think also that we are 50 minutes in the call and, uh, Jeanne, if you have, uh, any last, uh, last thing to add to the Lambda upgrade or to replicate the security,
otherwise, uh, we can start to bring up a community member, uh, to open the conversation.
Yeah, we've been, uh, yeah, we've, we've been working on spam issues as well.
Um, I, I can speak to that.
Um, but, but I, I guess I'll, I'll, we can open it up to questions and if somebody is interested in that, we can, we can talk about that.
Yeah, sure.
And, uh, if anyone want to jump in and now it's the time to make requests.
So in the meantime, Jeanne, if you want to talk about this, uh, feel free, because I think it's, uh, it's quite interesting.
Oh, sure.
The spam.
Yeah.
So the, the governance spam, um, you know, we've been hit by a lot of governance spam and it started out being just in the deposit period.
So the way that governance works is for governance proposals.
Um, you need to deposit some, you need to deposit 250 atoms, which is, you know, like $3,000 or so, um, to, to, to be able to have it, uh, be voted on.
Um, and the reason for that is, is actually, it's actually a spam prevention measure that they built in at the beginning when they, when they first made the governance module.
And, um, the idea is that while people might put spam in the deposit period, it's going to be way too expensive for them to put spam in, you know, get into the voting period and deposit the money.
Because the, if it gets no, it's vetoed that that money gets burned.
So, um, so earlier, uh, they were like a couple of weeks ago, they started putting it into the, they started putting spam into the deposit period.
And I kind of thought, you know, that's not really a big deal.
That's kind of what the deposit period is for.
Um, it's not great though, because it's still kind of there and, um, it's also running up the numbers.
So now we're getting close to like, you know, proposal 700, it would be kind of, you know, cool to have every single proposal be like, you know, it'd be like a record of all the major governance things that happen.
And now we have like a lot of proposals that are just like spam running up the number.
But again, it doesn't really make a big difference, um, whether you're voting on proposal, you know, 101 or 1,001 doesn't really change much.
Um, but we are, uh, we're, we've released a fix for that.
Uh, so that's the same fix that a lot of other chains have done, um, like Juneau.
Um, and, uh, that is to basically make it so that you have to have a minimum, um, a minimum like, uh, deposit to be able to even get into the deposit period.
So to create the proposal in the first place, you need this minimum deposit and that should cut down on deposit period spam.
But, uh, and that's also, that's, uh, that's Gaia version, um, 9.0.1.
Uh, so that's a soft, uh, it's a soft upgrade.
So validators can all install at their own, at their own pace.
It doesn't need to be, um, kind of done in a real upgrade.
Um, so what's going to happen tomorrow is validators are going to upgrade to V9 and then they can upgrade to V9.0.1.
As at their leisure.
Um, and once everyone's upgraded, it will take care of it.
Um, but then we also saw like, you know, just late last week, I think is when it started.
We saw these proposals coming into the voting period too.
So that means the spammers actually spent $3,000 to, to get these proposals up.
And so that's a very different thing because obviously having some kind of minimum deposit is not going to stop them anymore.
Um, and if, if they're willing to spend that money and, and I kind of also thought that raising the, the, the deposit amount to over 250 items, it's kind of undemocratic because if you're making people spend like, you know, $10,000, just get something up for voting.
I think it's like going to drown out a lot of the, the voices that we're going to have otherwise.
So, um, so basically the, the, the, uh, the way we think is best to deal with that is for, uh, proposals that get shown kind of in the main list.
Like, so on MintScan, there's like a, there's a main list of, uh, proposals, uh, in, in the voting period for those to be filtered.
So that proposals with more than 90% know with veto, uh, don't get shown because if you think about it, if there's a, if there's a spammer and they just put a proposal in and nobody sees it, maybe it has a, has a page on MintScan.
Like, if you know the number and you know, the link, you can go see, you can go find it if you wanted to, like, it doesn't really matter because what they need is to get in front of a lot of people.
So we think that filtering using these criteria, there's a few others, but the main one is filtering by like proposals that have more than 90% know with veto get hidden, um, is a good way to get rid of the spam.
Um, and, uh, MintScan has actually started doing that.
Uh, and also thanks to Jacob from Notional who, uh, who coordinated with them on that, but they started doing that filtering.
Um, and we're, uh, also trying to reach out to other front end providers, um, but Kepler and MintScan have both dealt with spam.
Uh, although Kepler uses a different, a different method, but it still works.
So, yeah.
Yeah, that's a, a lot of dynamics that, uh, we will have to look in the near future because this is something that, uh, absolutely should be solved because, uh, it's, uh, it's about taking care of our users.
So, uh, uh, if anyone has a request to join, please, uh, make it now so we can add it, uh, to speakers.
Okay.
I think, I think that, yeah.
We had Bendy, but I think you somewhat disconnected.
Yeah, I think we have a couple of issues with Twitter space as usual because, uh, sometimes it's a bit buggy.
Yeah, I know.
It's really, really horrible.
Uh, we got Will on.
Okay, cool.
I guess.
Nice.
Hey, Will.
Sure.
Yeah.
Hi, guys.
Thanks for hosting the space today.
Yeah, Will from Regen Foundation.
Um, so I guess I, I'm just trying to wrap my head around replicated security.
I have been following from a distance and now that it's going live, feel like it's time for me to really learn up on what's happening here.
So I guess the, the context I'd paint is we're in a down market right now.
Proof of stake.
The, the security model is based on essentially the dollar value of, of the tokens going into securing the chain.
So what replicated security does is allow to borrow a chain, to, to borrow some of the market cap of Cosmos Hub to, to help secure the chain.
And so I guess where the, the direction of this question is that we take stride as an example.
What do we, what do we think is going to happen to the utility and value of the stride token after this migration?
I mean, in a, in a way, uh, we could look at, um, the stride token plus the atom token creating this hole and the stride zone gets a boost in its, uh, kind of total value created by using replicated security.
On the other hand, a lot of the economics, depending on, you know, what percentage of fees are getting ported back over to Cosmos Hub versus stride token holders that is getting then ported back to atom holders.
So I guess the question is just around, it is a tokenomics question asking for, uh, zones that use replicated security.
What do we anticipate the trajectory of both the utility and value of their tokens being over time?
Uh, yeah, I think that a good point of comparison is, um, projects on Ethereum or Solana or other smart contract platforms, because, um, those are actually, or even, you know, projects on Juno, let's say, or other, other Cosmosum, um, chains.
A lot of them do have their own tokens and those tokens have, have uses and they also accrue value.
Um, even though they're not the staking token of the base layer.
Um, so I, I think you have a similar dynamic there, um, as you do with replicated security.
Um, and so if you think about it, like, let's say the Uniswap token, Uni, um, it's used for various governance things.
Uh, I think that they have the possibility of also charging a fee.
I don't, I don't remember if they do that.
Um, I think they hadn't turned that on yet or something.
Um, and so the token on consumer chain, you know, can do anything that any token can, uh, it's just not being used for staking.
So the other thing is, if it also has an edge over smart contract platforms, uh, in an economic sense, also because, um, that token does get, uh, what we're planning on, like a majority of the fees, um, from, from gas fees and stuff.
Um, so that's something where, like for Uniswap, for example, on Ethereum, um, and of course, uh, nothing on Cosmos is as big as, as, as Ethereum yet, obviously.
But, um, Uniswap has like, you know, millions and millions of dollars every day spent on gas fees.
And so, um, if they were a replicated security consumer chain, um, then the Uniswap, the Uni token holders would be getting the majority of, of, of that money from those gas fees.
So that's kind of how I look at it.
Um, I think that like staking doesn't necessarily have to be like the main purpose of a token or even the most important purpose.
Um, uh, so, so yeah.
Thanks.
Yeah.
I have other questions, but we'll pause in case someone else wants to hop up.
Yeah, we are still having issues to add people to speak.
Uh, not sure why it's, uh, it's probably Twitter space that, uh, is doing what the Twitter space is doing as usual.
So feel free to do another question if you want.
Um, this is just a super basic question.
What is the process for a chain getting onboarded into replicated security?
Does, is this a Cosmos hub vote?
Uh, does the, the chain participating also vote on the, the matter?
Just wondering what the kind of order of operations is.
Um, yeah, so, so it's, uh, right now with replicated security, uh, it does need to be approved by Cosmos hub governance.
Um, so it's, it's, it's a vote on the Cosmos hub, you know, governance and, um, it, uh, once it's approved, then the validators need to start running it.
Um, and, um, in terms of, in terms of the, um, on the other side, whether it's a vote on a consumer chain governance, I should actually talk to stride about how, how they're doing that with, uh, with, you know, with the stride community and stuff.
Um, but basically the key thing that happens, um, to enable, like in strides case or any other chain that's, that's coming over from being a standalone chain, the key thing that happens is that the validator set, uh, signs over control to the Cosmos hub validator set, um, through that, that, that, uh, the migration code that I was talking about.
Um, and so, um, for that to, uh, you know, for that to happen, they, they basically install an upgrade that, that does that automatically at the right time.
So, um, the, the change token holders do have to vote, have to approve that upgrade.
So that's, that's how it's kind of approved on, on both sides.
And so what you might do, uh, like, again, I'll probably have to talk more to stride about how they're going to sequence things, but, um, you, you probably would want to do it.
You could do a proposal or even like a proposal on the forum, maybe, um, to, to gauge interest in the consumer chain, joining the hub, or you could do a consumer chain proposal where the start date was a little bit, uh, you can set that, that was a spawn time is what we call it.
We can set that to be in the future.
So you might get the proposal passed first on the hub and then get the proposal passed on the standalone chain.
It's going to become a consumer chain and then everything will happen automatically from that point.
Cool.
Thanks.
And it looks like a bunch of other folks have hopped up as speakers.
So I'll pass the mic over.
Hey, you guys.
So Bendy, do you, do you want to go ahead?
Does the mic work?
Uh, can, can you all hear me okay?
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, that, all it takes is switching to a completely different device and then spaces works.
Brilliant.
Um, so I think there was a question earlier about, like, where we're up to with, um, the Atom Accelerator, um, Dow, and, um, the good news is we sort of said that we would take, like, the first couple of months to get up and running.
We're literally in the process of signing off on the website.
So that will go live in the next couple of days.
That will mean that we are open for applications.
Um, it will, we will be publishing a list of the kind of, uh, funding areas that we're most interested in having applications from.
Though we are an open grants program, so we will be, you know, we will take a look at anything that people send to us.
Um, and the questions will all be there and people can sort of start to put their applications together as to how they think they can add value to Atom.
And we'll, you know, sort of start running that process, um, probably look to start making awarding grants in April.
So, you know, making probably a bit quicker progress than we initially promised, which is, uh, really positive.
Um, we've had really great support from all sorts of people in the ecosystem, community members, developers, um, had some really good conversations with OGP about what they've done and some of their learnings.
And it's really, yeah, we've been able to make really good strides because of the support we've had from others as well as, you know, we've got a very strong team.
Cool. Thanks for the update.
I think that, uh, when the time is, uh, is mature, we can have a deeper conversation, especially about the value that can bring on the hub.
Um, dedicated to the, all the sub emissions.
Do you have also any question about replicated security?
Uh, I don't think so at the moment.
I've been following it fairly closely.
Um, I think obviously, as Johan sort of said, it's like once we actually have the consumers chains themselves in existence, that will be when it's interesting.
I think one of the things that we all have to accept is that this is like a, you know, as ever ship and iterate, right?
So we want to get things going and then see what problems are coming up and what we can solve.
And I think that that's a space where as the accelerator down, like that's one of the things we want to help with is, you know, some stuff is going to be bigger, longer term stuff.
There may be some stuff that can be sort of short term.
And if we can provide funding that brings in an additional resource that solves some sort of short term problems while some of the longer stuff is being sorted out, having that kind of flexibility and, and the ability to kind of do that relatively quickly should be really positive for the space.
Cool.
Any other question for Johan?
Not from me, but, you know.
Yeah, I have a question for Johan.
And it's either like his personal view or informals, whatever he feels more comfortable speaking on.
But I think one of the things that the Atom Economic Zone, and I think maybe just the Cosmos ecosystem in general needs, is a more abstracted way or a better wallet interface that abstracts away the entire interchain.
I think teams like Cosmos Station and Kepler have done a really great job.
But I think the next iteration of wallet design is something that leverages, you know, interchain accounts, interchain queries, kind of aggregate up all the different DeFi activities of an individual user across, across the interchain.
And I think that really unlocks like the next wave of users that are going to come into the Cosmos ecosystem, especially with, you know, DYDX and a bunch of, and Mars and a bunch of other product launches in the ecosystem.
It feels like the right time for the Cosmos ecosystem to have this like next level of, of wallet interface.
And you're seeing obviously account abstraction come live in Ethereum and you're starting to like smart contract wallets like, or not just start, Arjun's been around for a while, but you're starting to see smart contract wallets leverage account abstraction to better the user experience on the Ethereum side.
And I'm wondering if informal or Jehan, if your thoughts are like, can, can there be consumer chain that is strictly connected to like a consumer ending wallet that is secured by the hub?
Does, does that even make sense?
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
I share your, I definitely share the sentiment that we should have.
It would be great to have, have a, have a wallet that's focused kind of on replicated security or interchain security and kind of integrating between consumer chains.
It's not something we're working on informal.
We are, you know, we're, we're pretty focused on kind of a low level backend.
So it's something that I hope that the Adam Accelerator will be able to, we'll be able to fund, they get applications for it.
And in terms of your question about having like kind of a wallet that's connected to like one chain, I think that definitely is a possibility.
There's, there's definitely some utility in having like a chain, like a, well, a consumer chain would be great, but, you know, having a, having a chain that kind of controls things on other chains through interchain accounts.
And then allows the user to interact with it through a wallet, because it can do stuff on its own.
Like it could automatically do stuff.
So one example is Sommelier.
That was actually, I worked on Sommelier way back in the day at the beginning.
It uses Gravity Bridge, which I worked on, but that, that kind of does that for Ethereum.
But I think there's also, in Cosmos, we can do, do it even in a much more, more exciting way where almost everything can kind of be handled through interchain accounts, which could be pretty cool.
But I also think that, you know, you have to, it's very fascinating technically, but you also have to stay focused on, on what the user, you know, what the user requirements are and what the best technology is to get it done.
Definitely. Yeah, I see, you know, I think we've already seen teams like the Neutron team say that they plan on indefinitely staying on the hub and leveraging on replicated security, which I think is great.
And obviously that, that depends though, if, if roll up infrastructure gets more mature, once the last year rolls out, like as this matures, you might see product oriented consumer chains start deciding to leave the, you know, the, the atom economics.
So leveraging replicated security or V2 or V3, what have you to become their own standalone chain.
Right. And, and the entire Cosmos ecosystem thesis is based on sovereignty.
So I think, you know, in the, in the short term, I think there's a big need for, for Adam, obviously to accrue value and to grow its network effects and liquidity effects on these product consumer chains like Neutron, like Stride, et cetera.
But I think a long-term having incredibly neutral interchain services like the allocator, like the scheduler, like a wallet that, that resides on the hub and, you know, helps the entire interchain growth through better user experience, cross-chain composability, funding, et cetera, et cetera.
I think like that is potentially the long-term value prop for the hub because we can't necessarily rely on these more product facing consumer chains if they eventually decide to become sovereign.
Okay. So also joining Delusional, I think that's your name. I can see it fully. Do you have any question?
Hey, yeah, I was just curious. I heard the topic of spam mitigation come up and, and a lot of projects I've interacted with, that's been a very real problem that we've dealt with a very different amount of ways.
I was curious if you could expand on the spam mitigation that was talked about a little bit earlier and maybe just talk about the different ways that's taken into consideration and worked on.
Yeah. The tough part about dealing with spam in the blockchain space is that it's decentralized. So there's no, there's not really a way for, well, it's very obvious for anyone to see a piece of spam, or for most people, I hope, and see that it's spam.
There's no kind of way to automatically do that. I guess you could use AI, but that even might, might have problems as well.
So it's like centralized websites are able to kind of deal with spam by blocking it when it comes up and having, having staff that do that.
And so doing the decentralized way is a little tougher.
One way to do it is just to make it expensive to, to make any kind of any kind of proposal, but that has, has its limits.
And then I'll also, if it's profitable to spam, then the spammers might have enough money to just pay the, you know, pay the price, which is what they, what they started doing.
And so then the other option is to kind of like, well, one, one other option is, is that you just rely on front ends to block it, which is kind of what we're doing.
So you just say, well, well, like you could, you could even have, like you say, if you're running a website, then you need to check, you know, check stuff for spam yourself.
But then the other option is to kind of let people, a lot of sites deal with spam by flagging it.
And we do kind of have a flag, you know, kind of flagging functionality on, on the Cosmos hub in the form of, of no with veto.
So that's kind of, that's kind of the path we're trying to take right now is saying if something has a really high percent of no with veto, that obviously means it's spam.
And even proposals that get no with vetoed as a, as a way of, of blocking them, like Adam 2.0, that had like 34% no with veto or something.
So it's like, you know, if you're, if you're at 90 or 95% no with veto, it's obvious like that no one wants that proposal around.
Um, and so I think that's actually a pretty effective way, uh, to, to block the spam.
And like I said, we, we've, we released a blog post on how to do that.
Um, and what we think is the, is the best way.
Um, and we're, we're kind of letting people do that on the front end, uh, wallets and block explorers and stuff.
Um, but we could potentially integrate those, uh, into the, like the actual full node API as well.
Um, but I, I kind of think it's, it is better done on, on, on the front end, but, but if it keeps being a problem,
or if it's too much work for people to integrate, that kind of blocking or if people are doing consistently is conceivably something we could add to the full node API.
Fantastic.
That's the solution that I've seen deployed a lot is to block it on the application that shows the content.
Um, I think one thing that misses is it still gets, um, put on the chain a lot.
And so you have to filter that out at the application level.
What do you think of some, I loved your, um, idea of, uh, having the, the content flagged by users.
So if enough users report that it's spam, of course that could be abused.
Right.
But what do you think of, um, letting that be its own system in an Oracle type system where we can track the amount, uh, flags on a specific account?
Yeah.
Um, well, what I was saying actually is that a know with veto, it's like a spam flag.
I mean, that's the, that's kind of, that's one of the purposes of, of the know with veto option in the voting, uh, in the voting system.
So, um, I think it's, it's preferable to use that if it works.
Um, I know that Kepler is using something, um, I'm not as familiar with how they do it, but they have a, um, there is another, I had a tab here with it open.
I was just looking at it this morning, but, um, there, there's kind of another system where it's a little bit more of, uh, of, of a system where people are voting on what's spam or not.
Um, and they're using that to filter, I believe.
And that has more of a, yeah.
So, but I want to see how far we can go with just using noethetos, um, because I do kind of think that that noetheto was, was what was originally intended and it's already built in and already, already works, you know, it's there.
So, yeah.
Interesting.
Obviously, if it keeps being a problem, if, if, you know, uh, then we're going to have to keep, keep adapting and then figuring out how to deal with it.
Okay, cool.
Is, uh, any, uh, last questions, uh, let's see if, uh, there is, uh, any one other.
Okay.
I think we are in an hour, so we are pretty much, uh, had, uh, a long conversation and, uh, we covered the Lambda upgrade and, uh, upcoming replicated security.
Now it's just about time tomorrow to be ready for, uh,
uh, block height, uh, it's, uh, and, uh, uh, uh, we just saw, just saw that, uh, Spade joined, uh, from neutron.
So maybe he has, uh, a last surprise, who knows?
Hey folks, how's it going?
Sorry, I could only be joined now.
I had a bunch of calls before.
It's good to see you all on the Adam's own.
Hey man, welcome.
Um, so do you have, uh, do you have any update, uh, to share or, uh, question about replicated security?
I think in terms of questions, I'll, I'm probably all good.
We've been working on this for quite a while.
So fortunately we have a pretty good understanding of, of, of how things will work.
Um, in terms of updates, I'm just really looking forward to our own prop on the forum and to the upgrade, I guess.
Um, the only thing that we're waiting for, like, the prop is ready, we're looking forward to, to be able to share it.
We're just waiting for the final, like, legal review.
And as you probably know, anything that has the word legal in it just takes more time than you wish it did.
But it's important stuff, so, you know, please bear with us.
Um, but yeah, just, you know, just happy to provide some commentary or if you guys want to discuss, like, stuff that you're interested in the perspective of a consumer chain on.
Um, happy to, happy to jam.
I mean, yeah, we're already, uh, an hour and 15 minutes.
Like, we're actually 15 minutes already over.
I think it would just be cool, like, if, if you can just, uh, you know, as a, as a final, final words, basically share where you guys are currently standing.
Um, like, what's the, I don't know, short term roadmap.
I think on my channel last week, you said sometime mid, mid, late April, you want to go live.
So, yeah, maybe just share a quick, a quick update on that.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Um, so basically we're trying to get the prop, um, hopefully this week on the forum.
Can't promise because of legal, but that, that's what we're aiming for.
Um, and then that would give us about, like, basically the rest of the month.
So about two weeks for everybody to review it.
Um, and especially we review the proposed security agreement.
Um, that's going to be a first in, in our community and kind of like developing, um, the tools to actually see, um, how that consumer chain is going to fit into the atom economic zone.
Um, is I think something that's going to be very interesting in, in a way we're contributing to setting up the templates for how these, um, things should be done.
So, you know, we put a lot of efforts into doing that properly and hopefully, um, that will show.
Um, but also, you know, that it will be a great time for feedback as well and to improve this, uh, going forward because, um, you know, what basically neutron and stride in, in two different ways, because neutron is launching and then stride is migrating are going to be in, in my opinion, um, setting up a lot of like helping, you know, being the first to participate to a lot of these processes and providing, um, kind of like, um, a roadmap for the next projects to do so.
So that's going to be pretty interesting.
Um, and then once the prop has been on the forum for about at least two weeks, uh, and we've received the final report from, um, from the auditing arm at informal, which is doing like, honestly, I can really vouch for them.
They do an astounding job.
Um, once we've got that, then we'll be adding it to the prop and putting the prop to vote on chain.
So that should happen towards the end of the month or early April.
And then that's a two weeks voting period.
And then assuming that it passes, which, you know, um, excited and hopeful about, um, then it starts a one week, uh, launch period during which the validators, um, are asked, but not forced to start running the chain with the binary that was, um, proposed.
And if they do, well, then the chain starts and we'll have the first consumer chain.
That's awesome.
Thanks for the update.
I think that's the best way to close, uh, today episode.
And it's a great news that Cosmonauts can, uh, can already soon, uh, start to read the draft proposal because this will be the first, uh, draft, uh, from a consumer chain.
So it's very important that we'll, we'll set a good precedent, uh, and it will be very interesting just to read it and see, uh, how everything it will develop.
We'll definitely, we'll, uh, we'll have to do an episode fully dedicated of Atomzone about Neutron.
That's for sure.
Because, uh, there will be a lot of questions for, uh, the draft proposal, a lot of discussion to do.
So we can definitely do that in the near future.
Thank you, Jeanne, for participating today.
I think, uh, that your knowledge has been very important for every Cosmonauts to understand what's coming tomorrow.
Thank you, CryptoCito.
Thank you to all the people that jumped to the conversation and to the community.
Tomorrow is the upgrade.
I think it's a great moment for everyone that has been following the Cosmos sub.
So let's be excited because, uh, it's finally coming, uh, a long waited upgrade and, uh, it, there are a lot of interesting, uh, news coming, uh, in the near future.
So let's, uh, let's keep having this conversation.
Thank you guys.
Make sure to join every Tuesday and every Friday for the radioactive sessions.
So you can get involved there as well.
Thanks.
See you guys.
Bye.
Cheers.
