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Leveling Up: Gaming Meets Aggregation
Recorded: Aug. 11, 2025 Duration: 0:59:00Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, leaders from Wilder World and Moonvale shared exciting updates on their upcoming project launches and token generation events, highlighting significant growth in the Web3 gaming ecosystem. The conversation also explored emerging trends in game development, including the shift towards proprietary blockchain solutions and the integration of market dynamics to enhance player engagement.
Full Transcription
Thank you. GM, everyone.
Happy Monday.
Happy Monday.
I am so excited to be on the space going to be a very very fun space we're going to be talking to a couple projects Moonvale and Wilderworld both
are going to connect to Aglaire and we have a very special guest and Sandeep's going to be here so
give it just a few minutes. We'll play some music by
one of my favorite bands, Queen, because
I think it's a little on the nose and fun
for gaming space. So sit back, everyone,
relax, and we'll get to it
in just a few minutes. Thank you all.
Open up your mind and let me
step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide.
It's so easy when you know the rules.
It's so easy.
All you have to do is play the game.
Everybody play the game.
All right.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Oh The game of love has just begun.
Love runs from my head down to my toes.
My love is perfect in my way.
Play the game.
I can just say. Come, come, come, come. Play the game, play the game, play the game, play the game Just play Play the game
Play the game
Play the game
Play the game
All right, we will get going.
We have all the speakers on stage, so it is going to be a fantastic time.
I look forward to talking to everyone here.
I'm really, really excited.
A little bit of housekeeping before we get started.
If everyone in the audience,
please click that little quotation button on the bottom, like this space, retweet it,
share it out there. It's going to be, we want everyone listening who can listen. So
definitely looking forward to that. If you guys have any questions for the speakers at the end
of the space, you can also comment on the space and we'll, uh, get to those at the end. And, uh, yeah, with that being said, I think we'll just
jump right into it. So, um, all I'm going to ask is that you guys introduce yourself,
talk a little bit about your project and really just setting the foundation of, um, kind of where
you've been, where you're at now, kind of where you're
going, if you can take three to five minutes. And we will start with Neo. How are you?
How's it going? Yeah, good to be here.
Yes, happy to have you. So yeah, tell us a little bit about Wilder World,
kind of what you guys are doing, what you're building, and kind of where you're going.
Yeah, so at a high level, we're building a photorealistic metaverse that's maximally on-chain.
So it's a very large-scale virtual world that is designed after—it's sort of inspired by the city of Miami so when we
originally created it we used the sort of street data and geospatial data from actual uh actual
Miami and then we sort of morphed that into um our own our own version uh by taking all that data
on chain so you can own real estate and you can own all the various assets
that sort of make up the game world.
And then there are these different game modes.
So there's one game mode is racing.
So another game mode is shooter.
Another game mode is sort of like MMO.
And all of those sort of live together
in sort of this large scale virtual world.
One of the unique things we've done however though
is we've built like best-in-class teams for each game mode so usually in mmos you have kind of like
they're they're fun but each of the individual driving mechanics whether it's like
you know driving or shooting or a lot of the individual mechanics are kind of watered down
because because there's a lot of different things going on whereas with specialized games like shooters for instance or uh racing games they're highly specialized and so you know
you get a lot more fidelity and you get a lot like finer gameplay so we've built out verticals
for instance our racing verticals led by like one of the um luminaries in the sim racing space
who co-founded the game a aseto corza and built all the
racing physics which is one of the top racing games in the world so for each vertical whether
it's shooter or you know the open world would be or racing we're basically building out these
dedicated teams that are building these sort of best-in-class mechanics and then we're bringing
those bringing all those mechanics together and sort of like one cohesive experience. So,
so yeah, there's a lot of more elements to it. The, the, one of the things that's,
that I'm really excited about is, is just the team we've been building with. So the team's
worked on a lot of amazing things. We have people that have worked on everything from
like Dune and Blade Runner to Avengers to you who have worked on the iPhone and lots of different popular games.
So we just built this sort of cracked multidisciplinary team that has now been building this project for almost five years now.
And we're actually launching the first major version of it later this month, which we'll be announcing this week.
Oh boy, that is some very fun alpha.
But no, I've seen the trailers. I mean, the game looks fantastic. You guys are doing a great job.
So I am definitely excited to get more into that with you.
And then Mij, is that how you say it and call me mj yes how are you mj how
are you so yeah uh you can uh if you wanted to talk about moonvale introduce it i know uh you
guys have had some pretty fun announcements coming out this week so uh yeah the floor is yours my
friend absolutely uh i'm good gmgm everyone my name is mj i'm the ceo
and co-founder of moonville um so we are building more of a full stack web3 gaming ecosystem but
i'm mainly focusing on the casual core mid-core uh site uh with a bunch of portfolio coming up
very soon so for moonville we started as a web3 game studio back to about three years ago.
We recently just celebrated our three-year anniversary.
At the very beginning, mainly building up two of the games or prototypes that we wasn't able to
finish when we were in the previous gaming company. And in the past three years, we kind of gradually
evolved into more of a full-st stack Web3 gaming ecosystem with product layer,
about seven to eight games ready to launch or already launched.
It's operation layer, mainly focusing on the on-chain identity, players progressing, achievement, etc.
to make sure that they can aggregate who they are, what they can do on-chain together with infra layer.
So we have been building our own layer 2 chain with Polygon CDK powering us,
Aggregation Layer powering us
to make sure that the infrastructure
would be able to enable developers and players properly.
And we recently just hit on TGE,
and starting from this year,
compared with the previous two years,
we started to combine and integrate
all the three layers all together
to make sure it's empowering
each other uh so very happy to jump back to the panels together with you guys um starting from
this week we are officially launching our season two very soon with more games about to be able to
play and also the mainnet about to be launched very soon within this year so very excited to
about to be launched very soon within this year.
So very excited to have the conversation here.
Awesome. Yes. Thank you for that.
Definitely excited to dig in.
And then handing it over to Sandeep,
if you want to just share a little bit of your thoughts
about these projects,
why you're excited for them to plug into AgLayer
into AgLayer and just tell us what you think.
and just tell us what you think.
I mean, both Neo and MJ, a big fan of them.
Neo, I have now spoken very closely in the product space,
I would say, and I think he's one of the visionaries of the product
in the entire of the three, I think,
you know what he's building on.
And he's a long-term thing that he's been building
for like years now and you know, the products
and their quality speak for themselves.
We see how the value of this is created.
It's like, can we craft it, you know like carefully crafted by hand, everything.
And some of the other things are also they are building
in terms of their messaging in their mail and all that
that they have built.
So being really, really,
or quite frankly I would say like a big fan of what Neon
is doing and they are just waiting for them to
you know kind of explore into into the into the top uh you know kind of rankings in every
on every front uh business team you're not only in terms of the game but also market cap and
everything else uh and it's a matter of time so yeah that's there and then mj you know i i know
for quite some time i think you know we've been working together last two years and he's also like
you know he's a kind of an entrepreneur you meet him once like i met him the first time uh i think
in singapore and you know you could see that you that you can never bet against this guy.
He is going to find the answers to all the questions that are going to come in his business
company and he has done it before, has built multiple successful gaming businesses and
I think Moonvale on many areas has the DAUs and everything on MoonWayl ecosystem is absolutely
you know kind of insane and you know I also a lot of ecosystem players you know in Polygon
ecosystem they work with MoonWayl and they have internal data right right? That's because they move in sometimes with their particular data.
They all believe that they have very, very solid ecosystem.
And, you know, again, it's a matter of time where market
starts, you know, value that much more IP than this.
And, you know, while I they was talking like one question came to
add and you said that you are now full stack you know solution so you know you're working on
identity and quality provisioning and all that so is it like can it be said that you guys are
now moving towards like the permutable or running kind of system where other games can come and
build on top of your platform?
Or do you still want to keep it like your own studio and your own game while you're building the entire infrastructure of the game?
Yeah, I mean, thanks, Andy. It's always good to kind of remember how we met each other back to two to three years ago.
I would say kind of, but I'm not sure whether
Ronin is a good example because I think they had their own strategy. So instead of saying that we
are building another Ronin or another Immutable, I would say we're trying to do something more like
a Moonville style. And definitely, right, so we want to make that more as an open gaming ecosystem,
which means that we want our expertise, our infrastructure, our advantage, et cetera,
would be able to empower more builders to come into us, and we can leverage what we have been
building and the problems or the mistakes that we made to help other developers coming into this
area more smoothly with more help from not only us, but also all the potential allies and partners
in the gaming area right so um that's
part of the reason why we want to build up the operation layer to highlight the identity so that
the player's achievement their badge their progress etc would be able to kind of migrate from one game
to another while also for the info layer is to empower the developers to come over to build the
on-chain uh element um in element with the strategy by themselves.
But the thing is that I think right now, in general,
the web street is still in this very early stage,
not to mention the web street gaming area.
So there's not that many benchmarks.
There's not that many good examples.
That's something that we figured when we came into this area,
we tried to find the right partner to help us build up the games, to build up the Web3 elements.
But there are not that many good partners over there
that can really help us.
That's part of the reason why we kind of shopped around.
But in the end, instead of saying that we are building on A-chain
or we are building on B-chain,
we would like to build up the Layer 2 by ourselves.
And the games that we are building,
I'm glad that people are enjoying those games,
are more of a benchmark, right?
So we want to set up the benchmark,
how a Web3 game could be built
and how the Web3 element could be integrated over there.
It's not like an A and B choices, right?
It's more like the spectrum of,
you could go as deep as a fully on-chain game
to have every single transaction,
every move on-chain as well
or more like a web 2.5 some people call that to only put your asset or your achievement on-chain
i think that's totally fine but we want to showcase how potentially the web3 element could be um
seamlessly built and integrated into the gaming experience without creating extra obstacle or
problems for the users, for the gamers.
So that's how we define the full-stack gaming ecosystem that we are trying to build.
It's funny, right, because I think more people are categorizing us as GameFi,
so I'm not sure whether that's the right category,
especially when a lot of Web3 gaming has been failing.
But what we want to make sure is that, of course, there's a lot of problems that we have.
There's a lot of mistakes that we made. But we want to showcase sure is that, of course, there's a lot of problems that we have. There's a lot of mistakes that we made.
But we want to showcase how the game could be built, how the Web3 element could be integrated.
And that could be something we can help and empower other developers to come in as well.
That was a really, really great answer, MJ.
It kind of led into my uh early question that i had but it's
almost like so web3 gaming i feel like got there was mania basically in the 2021 2022 uh top of
the last cycle and i just kind of wanted to explore what's changed since then i mean uh both
of you guys are projects that are building a game for your own
chain. And I feel like in 2021, 2022, it was like games were coming onto existing chains and
building out. So I was wondering, we can start with you, Neo, just kind of explain that process,
because you guys have been building for five years and kind of what led to that change and what's um what you guys have seen along the way that said like building our own chain but then
connecting to an interop solution is uh the way to go
yeah i think i think the big thing that happened in 2021 was that people became sort of aware of the concept of the
metaverse and it started to begin to click for people because of NFTs and digital assets and
all those things coming forth. But it was very much in the, I would say, in the idea phase.
And then just like most sort of big technological trends that sort of like, you know, got overhyped
and then sort of went into like the valley of death,
like while it was sort of being incubated.
And really the last few years have been really kind of figuring out
and going into all the challenges of figuring out
how do you actually make something like that
and bring something that to life.
It's obviously been very challenging being in Web3 Gaming. I think I was talking on a space
or something a little while ago, and I did some research, and gaming's dead last right now in
all the different categories in terms of pretty much almost every metric. And so I think it's positive. We
can only go up from here basically. But I do think kind of like Web3 Gaming metaverse has
bottomed and it's beginning to make a resurgence. But with gaming in general, A, it's very, very hard
to make like hits essentially. So it's similar to, I guess, music or entertainment from,
from that perspective where, um, you know, you need to try a lot of different things and you
have to try and find something that, uh, can actually have a mass market appeal. Um, and the
second thing is, it's just like the sheer cost of building games is still very, very expensive,
especially if you want to, you know, build it like a triple A level.
And so the combination of those two things is sort of somewhat a little bit
antithetical to other things in crypto where you can stand up,
not for like building blockchains and stuff like that,
but for building other protocols and D apps,
things can get traction a lot faster.
So I think we're now kind of going like we've gotten through that.
A ton of projects have obviously failed and a lot of things didn't work out i think there's like every week
you hear of multiple web3 gaming uh closures but i think for the teams that can actually pull
through and uh see things to completion there's you know it'll be very very in the communities
that can do that they'll be very lucrative for them that have have pulled through but that's that's just you know that's just like
the cost of building games and building building large platforms this is kind of the time it takes
and i think web 3 is very much like you know okay this is exciting show me something and then sort
of on on to the next on to the next meta um as it it's interesting because if you look at blockchains
and you say look at AgLayer, for instance, as an example,
as a lot of the platforms and a lot of the content,
a lot of the things that were envisioned in 2021
are actually coming to fruition
and you can start to see these games
and you can start to see these games and you can start to play these games. The infrastructure layer is kind of
at about the same pace in terms of what will be required in terms of interop and how quickly
transactions need to settle and all those types of things. So it is interesting from that perspective
that a lot of this stuff is coming together and seems that it will converge at the same time, is at least my sense of it, is that, you know, things are actually getting fast enough with stuff like CDK and AgLayer, where we're going to be able to have the blockchain, like, pretty much seamless, you know, which, which was also a big part of
the vision in 2021.
So I think that's really, you know, exciting essentially.
No, that, that was great.
That, and I do think that's a really fun and interesting call out to say, like, we're
having all of these, I don don't know you have these disparate
groups kind of building their own thing that on one hand is reliant on some technology but they
can't build it themselves and then it just kind of all comes together and then i think that's really
where the magic happens when like technologies advance at a similar pace and converge and you
get this um really fun like, explosion of innovation,
and I think that's really when it's felt by everyone.
I wanted to ask MJ, too, so,
and you touched on it a little bit, Neo,
with the speed and seamlessness,
like, right now in building games,
what's the biggest blocker to that true interoperability?
And then do you also think that players, gamers,
Web3 gamers, in the future will care about the chains
that they're on and how that will look?
I think it depends, right?
So what I'm saying that is if we are looking back
in the past three years to five years
from the last cycle,
well, actually two cycles before,
I think it's quite natural
and very similar to how internet evolves in the past three decades, right?
So at the very beginning, when the new technology popped up,
I think there were a lot of pioneers
or a lot of talents started to realize,
oh, this is going to be the future,
but nobody knows how the future should look like.
So around that time, the real utility of how
internet can help human beings to be better
was actually started to pop up after the internet bubble,
back to 2000.
So I think the game fight is quite similar.
Back to two years ago, three years ago,
when people started to realize this is going
to be the future for the gaming, I think around that time, all the developers, all the builders are still trying
to figure out and explore what's the best way that we can integrate Web3 technology, crypto
technology into gaming and how that works. But in the past three years, I think the natural
evolution will involve a lot of iteration as well that builders, developers, gamers started to
understand a lot of the old concept didn't really work. Well, the future should be back to the real
nature of why people need that, right? What's the real product market fit, especially for gaming.
I think that's, in my opinion, the true product market fit, the true utility that in the end,
it will help gamers, help users to
make their gaming journey better than previously. However, I think people are very easily getting
hyped by the new concept or new singular point that they feel excited about. So that's part of
the reason why I still believe that fully on-chain game is part of the future as well. But there's a
lot of fully on-chain games projects got dead in the past two years,
and people started to thought like,
oh, a fully on-chain game is kind of a fake utility
or fake product and market fit.
But I think the problem is that at the very beginning,
a lot of people didn't really think about
what's the utility that can be brought out
from the fully on-chain concept to the gaming,
why fully on-chain game matters,
while instead, I think they just feel excited about the concept themselves, which is great, right? I think that's a part of the nature
of the early stage evolution for a lot of new trend, but that's not the true utility. So getting
back to your question is that I think right now the blocker, I will try to break that down into
two parts, right? So what's the blocker for the industry to get better? And what's the blocker, in my opinion,
as a builder for project?
I think the first one for the general industry is not only the problem for Web3 gaming.
It's a problem for every single narrative
for Web3 as well,
is not enough builders and talents
are coming into this industry
to iterate themselves,
to iterate the projects,
to gradually touch the point when people feel this is a real product market fit, to iterate the projects, to gradually touch the point
when people feel this is a real product market fit
to hit the mass adoption to the next stage.
So especially for Web3 Gaming in general,
although there are some good cases popped up
in the past one year, people saw the real builders
like Wilder World, etc. navigating the cycles,
still building, trying to deliver a good experience experience there are a lot of star projects from
the last cycle got dead right people started to find like why the project I
got excited in the end got that and then started to be questioning about the
real utility of the industry but in the end I think it needs more strong
builders strong developers coming in this industry to actively iterate with us together.
That's part of the reason why we try to level up our strategy from a game studio to more of an ecosystem so that we can leverage what we have to empower other people.
is that because there's no benchmark, there's no good examples,
there's no kind of loss pole that we can anchor there
to try to be our examples that we can copy or we can follow.
There's a lot of uncertainty that we have to navigate by ourselves.
One of the key blockers that we saw is that it's still very hard
to kind of find the right pace of a live ops game
together with the Web3 market fluctuation, right?
So the thing is that if we're building a game
as a one-off shipping game, arcade game also,
I don't think it will have strong lifecycle
to support the Web3 operation in general.
But if we want to have a live ops game
with the content to be constantly iterated,
then it's really hard to time the content creation and production
together with the web stream market fluctuation, right?
So a lot of the content preparation requires weeks or months,
even longer, like while the world has been building there for five years, etc.
But you never know what's going to happen next month,
how the crypto market should look like.
When you are rolling out the content, feel excited, your gamers will like like it what about if the market is tumbling on that day right so will people get frustrated
because only because your token price as the anchor of your rewards being tumbling as well
i think that part require a much better uh much stronger agility to manage the pace of the life
ops together with uh with the market to fluctuate and embrace that altogether.
I think that's a key blocker for us
that we see gonna be super challenging for not only us,
but basically every single one.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
You brought up a point that I feel like I bring up a lot
on this space and just when I'm talking about it is
for good reason in Web3,
you have a lot of people
talking about the user experience, the user experience, like user experience is paramount.
And you want obviously users to have a good experience. But I think one thing that probably
was lagging user experience and people are recognizing, and I know like people on our team,
I know Brian Song is building something but we
we want to focus on dev experience too because when you have like instead of projects looking
at just the user experience like what if we gave developers the tools to build better product and
then they can focus on the user experience i think like we're, we ignored that middle DevEx for a little bit of time. And I think
it's cool to see that, I mean, progress is being made, but certainly it's not where it needs to be
for this mass adoption. But Neo, I kind of want to get your thoughts on that as well,
if you're seeing the same thing for developers. And then also, if you can touch a little bit on,
I think you guys have done a pretty good job at onboarding users,, if you can touch a little bit on, I think you guys have done a
pretty good job at onboarding users, but like, if you can talk about onboarding and user retention,
and if that's been a struggle in, in general, in web through gaming.
Yeah, so I think in general, we're following a similar strategy, which is
really building out more of an ecosystem. We just launched something last week called Cypher.
And I put out a X article and we put out a blog post,
which was kind of outlining our thesis for the space
and how we see the space changing.
And in that piece, I outlined something,
what I'm calling virtual world assets.
So obviously, there's all this craze around real world assets now.
And it's actually insane in terms of just like how quickly that market is growing.
I think their one estimate was it was going to be like $16 trillion by 2030.
So really, I don't know if you guys remember, but like Mark Andreessen, way back in the day, he wrote this article, or he wrote a, I think it was New York Times article or something like that. And it just said like software is eating the world. And that was sort of before software really took off. I remember it still being a bit of a, it was still like a bit of a niche. And then it started to just like software just kind of like took over everything after that and i think that's pretty much the moment that we're in with crypto right now and
specifically tokenization and the narrative is that everybody is gonna you know tokenize
everything in the world and you know the whole existing economy is going to come come over but
if you study technology uh cycles it's always usually the reverse. It's not like the phone book went
on the internet. It's like the internet replaced the phone book, you know what I mean? And there's
some good history around this in terms of a lot of the initial technologies when they first come
out, they kind of look like the thing that they're replacing. Early search engines looked like
phone books, basically, and engines looked like phone books basically,
and they looked like newspaper directories.
And then, you know, like eventually that was just done away with.
So I think there's this predominant narrative,
which like Wall Street and the world can understand is that there's going to
be these real world assets and, you know,
real estate and all these different things are going to come on chain.
And I think that's now obvious to everybody,
but I think the thing that's not obvious to everybody. But I think the thing that's
not obvious to people is that the design space within the virtual world is way larger than the existing economy. And so my sort of like contrarian thesis is that what I'm calling VWA's
virtual world assets will eventually be a larger economy than physical
physical world assets um like i don't know how far in the future but some point in the future
i think that that flipping will happen and it's basically just on the principle that like
like bits move faster than atoms you know we're mostly on line now like life is becoming more
and more online the the g the digital gdp only 15% of the total economy, but we spend like 40, 50% of our time online.
So I think there's basically this like huge dislocation.
And I think where that's going to show up is actually in these virtual worlds.
And I think how it will be activated is with AI. And so that, you know, as the tools of creativity are democratized
and basically anybody can become a creator,
anybody can create high quality game assets,
anybody can create good music, anybody can create amazing images.
We're already seeing that with generative AI.
Tokenization, you know, having that come on chain,
having that be tokenized i think those markets
are just going to be absolutely massive and i think that most people who are building
in web3 gaming they're they're just kind of like taking games and adding nfts or they're just
taking games and they're you know adding different elements to it i remember like there's there's
been this huge meta in web3 gaming is just waiting for like web2 teams to come and save us like oh
this person worked at this studio and now they're coming here and you know a lot of those teams have
come in and they haven't been successful because they're not sort of crypto native like you need
to understand gaming and you need to understand how to build a game but you also need to be crypto native and you need to understand so much of crypto is understanding like
where the puck's gonna go and getting there first and thinking thinking long out and i feel like
that's kind of been somewhat dead in web3 gaming and and just crypto in general like like you really
needed to be like a crazy person in like 2014 to think like Bitcoin was going to become mainstream. Like you were completely insane if that happened. And now there's just like so many normies here that
there's really no vision. Like if everybody agrees on what the future is going to be like in terms of
real world assets and tokenization, all those types of things, we're just not thinking big
enough or we're not thinking thinking far out enough so i
think um that's hopefully the shift that web3 gaming is in right now and metaverse and all
these types of things where like we're imagining this crazy future like at the digital frontier
where you really start to imagine these tokenized user-generated um economies and like how how big
those are and how fast things can trade in those worlds,
I think meme coins are an early sign of that. It starts to get really, really exciting. And I
really think that that's kind of like the next Bitcoin is going to be something. No, I'm not
saying that that's a wilder world, but there's something in the virtual space and these virtual economies where that's really
sort of the next um frontier for crypto that i think is not like totally obvious yet no that's
actually a really interesting point you uh i love talking to people who make me think about
different things outside but like what you were saying about uh things look like things they were placing and
then kind of you call it like digital assets versus real world assets in just my day-to-day
life when i talk to people who know i work in web 3 uh and then i try to relate to them like
talking to people who work in real estate like just regular normies talking about tokenizing
real estate they don't quite get it but then when you do talk to gamers it does seem like they're like okay yeah this makes sense and i feel like
gaming could everyone not everyone a whole bunch of people play games and if they can understand
the concepts through gaming i feel like it's a uh a really great way to introduce the concept and
i mean i wholeheartedly agree that you can't just take web to people and say
like okay now build on the blockchain and they get it but i think the uh the for retail users and like
the way people's minds are set up it just kind of clicks for gamers quicker than it clicks for
people in the traditional finance space um so yeah no no, that's, that's really interesting. The shifting gears.
Just to connect it back, it sounds like MJ has come, you know, they're, they're obviously have
come to similar perspective in terms of building an ecosystem and building tools and building all
these different things. And I think that's kind of interesting like that there's you know that's
like kind of the area of the spaces is going into but I think there's there's probably like signal
there if if we're kind of converging on the same some of the same ideas there
yeah I feel I quite I can resonate a lot with that right right? Is that in the end, how you can trigger the interest and passion of the audience,
especially as a 2C product, 2C ecosystem,
is about what type of language you are speaking in front of your audience, right?
So that's the story that I share with a lot of people as well.
Right before TGE, we went to Korea to host an offline event over there
to meet up our community.
And around that time, I think the type of meetup event
is kind of a regular routine for a lot of projects.
Right before us, it was LabRange and who else
who organized events over there.
So we saw a lot of audience discussing,
hey, this is just another project coming in.
Let's get some swag.
Let's get some good snack over here and let's go.
But I think the time when we
started the event right so we did we didn't start with a kind of a shading presentation talking
about oh why you should buy a moon will so concord more etc we started talking about our own experience
i told the audience that hey i came from a pro gamer background right so i used to play with
the previous stackcraft pro legends um calledayer Boxer back to 20 years ago.
I failed. That's kind of killed my dream to be an esports gamer, etc.
I can feel that the people started to feel very related and resonated,
that they know that they are speaking the same language with me.
And as a gaming ecosystem builder, they know that what I am building is from my own experience as well.
ecosystem builder, they know that what I am building is from my own experience as well.
In the end, I think the funny and sexy story would be easy to trigger some type of the excitement,
but it's more like flashing the pan, right? So in the end, it's about why people use it,
why people feel this is something that you are building for them. So I think coming back to
what we've tried to build, right, is that I think digital asset is definitely something
that we feel excited about as well.
Back to about five years ago,
four years ago,
when Metaverse started to be
kind of an exciting concept,
I think all the people
are looking at Ready Player One.
But right now,
how many of them building Metaverse
are still here
that really think deep enough
about what type of Metaverse
that we are building
and why our audience, why our community care about that, right metaverse that we are building and why audience,
why our audience, why our community care about that, right?
So in the end, the digital asset, et cetera, is something that's coming over here.
The ownership, how it exists, in the end, I think it doesn't matter.
It's about how people feel about it, right?
So why digital asset matters to them, how that can make their life better,
make their gaming experience better.
So that's something that we are trying to build
as a real utility, that concept is great,
narrative is great, but we, at least from our side,
we will never be able to be the team to chase a train.
But how we can literally transition the concept
or the exciting idea that people have some kind
of early insights, this is going to be something huge,
we want to make sure that we can execute that to embody the concept to be something that
really matters to people.
That is, that's a great answer.
I love that you kind of went into the player experience and user experience because that
was kind of next on my topic.
But what, so I think about gaming and like there's the i would say web through
gaming is interesting because you have this like user playing it needs to be fun um is what people
say but then um there's also the blockchain assets like trading selling I think about marketplaces too. And like, are, how are the user economies like
built from the ground up? And like, do we have the tools there? Because I think both of you
talked about the importance of having these user economies in there. And I just think about like,
is everything where it needs to be from a UX perspective with having a marketplace,
where it needs to be from a UX perspective
with having a marketplace, the ease of a wallet,
because that's a whole different topic
about how hard wallets are.
But how do you guys think about all of the things
that actually make a Web3 game coming together?
And what's critical to that, I guess?
to that, I guess.
And we can start with you, Neo.
Yeah, from my perspective,
it has to be seamless.
Like it has the Web3 technology
and I'm like the biggest crypto maxi ever,
but the technology actually has to be invisible.
And I think there's two kind of,
there's another thing where like you know as things evolve
usually they become more complex like that's what evolution is it's um it's it's basically uh
it's basically a mechanism to add new things so know, complexity sort of multiplies, and then there's some
process of simplifying things, and then complexity multiplies again, and that just happens
infinitely, essentially. And in Web 2, like if you look at Web 1, there was just these sort of
single-sided markets. It's just like you and the internet and you'd write
a blog post or you'd be on like a you know a bbs or something like that and web too brought in this
sort of idea of like this sort of two-sided marketplace right where there's colors um
there's content creators and then there's consumers and it's sort of like two sides
there's also an ad network in the middle but it's mostly just those two sides and
crypto is introducing this third element a lot of people you know the christics and call it like
the read write own kind of like you know that's that's web3 but there's also this speculative
element to this trading element which is different than own, right? Because own is like, people are talking about own
from the perspective of the users.
Like, oh, okay, like the initial thesis in Web3 is like,
oh, like people are going to own their assets.
And that that was kind of the underlying value proposition.
And like people care about that,
but they don't care about it as much as traders care about
speculating on things and making money or like they don't that
doesn't matter as much as like markets right like markets are more powerful force maybe then
sort of owning your own assets one that one enables the other but I think if you really
think about that and you say okay well now you're going to be able to trade and speculate and use markets as a way to produce signal, essentially.
If you look at what Polymarket's doing, it's using markets as a mechanism to arbitrate truth, to get to hey what is the truth on this particular
subject there's so much noise and like the information ecology like how do how do you
collapse that and just get to something true okay you can use markets for that so i think in games
there's a lot of um there's a lot of problems in terms of game economies like games are actually
like they're just like real world economies in terms of game economies like games are actually like they're just like real
world economies in terms of how they function if you study the best games like you know there's a
lot in which you can gleam in terms of actually you know building building real world economies
they're very very similar so i think being able to use markets to build the game itself and to then enable people to actually speculate and participate and to create
new types of economies where people can basically earn a living so not just you know game I think
you know people think oh it's like game like the web 2 view would be like game companies come in
they allow you to own your own assets and
now you can trade your own assets between games and this is like that's what kind of most people
have been pitching or dreaming about but i think what will actually like have product market fit
will actually be big is being able to create your own assets put those assets into a marketplace
have the marketplace decide like what the value is of that
asset, whether it's a object or it could be like a guild or it could be a DAO or it could be some
part of a city or something like that. And then let the market do its thing and actually figure
out if and if and how that that thing should be should be built essentially. So I think that's
what I'm really excited about is that that
that sort of awareness is like coming online right now where people are like and i think it's mostly
because web3 gaming hasn't really succeeded partially and so people are now starting to
ask questions so like okay we can't just take it as a given we actually have to like make this
happen and think about it in a different way. But those types of creator economies are coming online.
And I think that that's also really exciting
for somebody like Polygon and Egglayer
because these markets,
Web3 Games kind of been somewhat lackluster
and people have been focused more
on the real-world asset side, which makes sense.
But once these economies actually start going,
the number of TPS and the number like transactions and volume and stuff like that i think can be
be much much larger so the the main point is that most people thought about that it was about
ownership it's actually about more about markets and using markets to actually help help build
things that opens up a whole new avenue of there really being a different
customer type. So you have the player, you have the content creator, right? The player's the
consumer, you have the content creator, and then you have the person that is the trader,
and they're speculating and they're participating in that economy as well. And that is really
a whole new element is that other sort of speculative market element,
which I think we haven't fully tapped in yet,
but we're just starting to see in some other sectors,
like memes or attention tokens and social FI
and stuff like that is starting to happen.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I'll hand it off to MJ.
I just want to get your thoughts on what Neo said
and then add some of your own.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think I totally agree,
especially at the very beginning,
Neo mentioned about the seamless experience, et cetera.
I think in the end for the tokenomics
or in-game economy, et cetera,
that people are excited but have been struggling about.
They require at least two parts.
So number one is accessibility.
So how you can make sure that people can get on board seamlessly
without enough obstacles.
So back to the last cycle, I think it was extremely hard.
You have to figure out what is wallet, why CD-freeze matters,
where you should put the CD-freeze, open the wallet,
store some assets over there,
try to understand how to use it in-game and so on.
So I think right now it's getting better,
especially on two parts.
One is that there's more chain agnostic solution
from the wallet integration.
And also I think the chain asset is no longer that silo,
thanks to AdLayer.
And also that's part of the thing that I'm really excited about.
So that will resolve a lot of accessibility issue, especially for gamers who wants to embrace Web3 concept.
They don't have to struggle and navigate the long journey to understand what it is and embrace it.
So I think the accessibility is number one. The second part is about the alignment,
how you can build up the alignment among the people.
So I think to me, I kind of resonated
with what Neil just mentioned,
but I think to me, maybe it's because I'm from a more
of a weird finance plus gaming background.
I think it's very similar to how finance can resolve
the problem of the whole society, right?
So it can help on, we call that for example,
resource allocation, we can help on that value discovery as well
to help people understand what's the real way
that you can find the right projects
for the people who really need the resource,
allocate the resource to them and help them to grow.
That's a real concept of co-building.
So without finance, without financing,
without early investment, et cetera,
there's a lot of good ideas
won't be able to navigate from
the early stage to the growth stage to the mature stage to really become a thing right so i think
for web3 gaming especially for gaming ecosystem it matters a lot about how we can see that to be
open to multiple people to get them understand why their contribution matters in different way
either as a core gamer spending time
or some of the early investors
who want to spend money in the asset
or even as a speculator to provide the liquidity
potentially help on,
we call that fair value exploration as well, right?
So that can help people can really understand
what really matters
and why some of the asset is valuable,
why these are some people to hold it or trade it.
I think in
general um it's about how we can make people feel that their contribution matters and for the game
developer and game publisher it's about how we can compromise part of our margin potentially if we
can make games successful to embrace more people coming in as our ally, could be content creator, core gamer, evangelizer, et cetera,
to join us as early as possible
and then ride the journey with us together
and then share the success in the future.
But the success sharing is not only about
how they spend money in the game.
It's also about how they can provide critical feedback to us
when we're early,
how we can help us to create more awareness around the market
to make other people realize why Moonlight is a thing,
or only help us to treat the asset as a speculator,
which is also fine because the liquidity can help
a much more efficient value discovery as well
for the asset that people really care about.
So all those things, to me,
is about how we can put
this financialization as a concept
to empower the game developer, publisher,
gamer community to make their experience better.
So in my honest opinion,
I don't think we are resolving a problem of AKA Web3 gaming.
I think it's an issue of the gaming in general
if we are looking at how many new games
or new IP really became a thing back to the past two years,
I think very, very few of them.
So it's not because the game developers are getting worse.
It's because the gamers or the audience are changing constantly.
And the new generation, their taste, their patience, and how they embrace gaming experience
is not the same case as how we as a gamer enjoyed the game
back to 20 years ago or 30 years ago. So we also have to think about as a developer, as a publisher,
as a gaming ecosystem, how we can embrace the young generation, the new generation to better
stay in the game and build up the alignment to get them in the same place, co-building with us
all together,
and make their long-term bonding with them
to guarantee that this is a success we want to share with them.
I think that's a fantastic way to round it up.
I know we have about 10 minutes left,
so I thought it would be fun to do a little bit of a,
call it fun, thought-provoking
hot takes for both of you guys um in a in a different get to know you not as builders but
just like as gamers uh at the core so uh first and then we'll go neo and then mj but favorite
game of all time my favorite game is Quake 2 from way back in the day.
Yeah, MJ, your favorite game?
StarCraft. StarCraft 1, StarCraft 2.
So I think that's a game that I spend most of the time in my whole life.
So I think that's a game that I spend most of the time in my whole life.
Awesome.
And then what Web 2 game do you think would benefit most
from going fully on-chain?
And MJ, we'll start with you now.
I would say most of the simulation game
would benefit a lot from over there.
Because if you're talking about fully on-chain game,
I think the concept is something that people are excited about.
But we've been always thinking about what's the real value that fully on-chain game, I think the concept is something that people are excited about. But we've been always thinking about what's the real value
that fully on-chain can bring over there.
It's about your transparency, your accessibility,
and also your validation.
So I do feel that the best fit for fully on-chain game
is about the simulation game.
Could be business, could be war, et cetera,
that you can justify why you are competing with other people in a fair way
and why your achievement and progress
matters and how you can leverage that
to put back in the game to
potentially fight for better rewards.
I think simulation gaming in general
is going to benefit a lot from Fully Unchained.
Awesome.
Neo, which one-two
game do you think would benefit most?
Financially, from my perspective, it would definitely be GTA.
I think GTA is owned by Take-Two, and their market cap is like $40 billion.
I think if they tokenized GTA, they would add at least that in market cap, basically.
Awesome.
And then, final question before we kind of wrap it up,
but what is the most overrated concept in Web3 gaming?
And Nioh, we'll start with you.
Gaming KOLs.
Sorry, I put myself on mute.
Sorry, I put myself on mute.
What a laugh.
What a laugh.
Yeah, MJ, the most overrated concept.
I would say ownership, right?
So I'm not saying ownership is bad,
but only highlighting your ownership
without talking about any utility,
what's the value, et cetera, means nothing, right?
So you saw a lot of, you can see a lot of people
from builders, from KWL, et cetera,
back to two years ago, three years ago, highlighting a very interesting concept that,
hey, back in the Web2 area, it's the developer and publisher own that.
Now you own that. That's awesome.
I'm not saying this is wrong, but I think it's overrated, right?
So ownership itself means nothing.
It's about what that means, what that can bring to you as a next one step or second step, et cetera, to create extra rewards, bring better alignment, creating more value, or have better utility, that matters to the developer, to the gamer.
I think only talking about ownership is kind of a misleading concept to make a lot of people have some stereotype about Web3 gaming.
Love it.
You'll get a lot of good Kols praising you but neo's about to get
funded by gaming kol so it's uh it's all good i just like staring up the timeline you know got
to keep it interesting web you know there's some there's you got to keep it entertaining here
because it's so so intense building in this space so it's done with uh mostly love i i agree
completely um but awesome so we have about five minutes left.
I'll leave you guys with the final word.
Neo, what do you want to leave people with?
Also, let people know how they can
discover Wild or World, what they can do,
kind of like how to get involved
if they liked what you had to say
and want to check out a new game.
Yeah, I definitely recommend joining our Discord
as well as Xero.
You can search Xero,
which is our sort of messaging
and social networking app.
Essentially, it's like a companion app to Wilder World,
and it's built with crypto primitives
around privacy, security, decentralization,
and it's very much like the foundation of the ecosystem we're building.
So definitely get on there.
There's some really cool communities on there that are being built.
And you can just ask around and get added to our super early access list.
And yeah, there's people playing Wilder World every day now, essentially.
And it's really fun. And there's a good community there. So just kind of get involved
before the launch and start playing. And there's also going to be like a massive tournament. So
if you want to start practicing and stuff like that, the sooner the better, essentially,
so that you can participate in that tournament, which is going to be really cool and announced soon fantastic yeah that'll be a whole bunch of fun mj your final
thoughts um our season two will start from uh this week and there will be more gaming about to
be able to play very soon with diversified experience.
And the sneak peek is that there's a casual game that we are about to roll out starting from tomorrow.
It's kind of leaning more on the casual side.
We will start more from the Web2 side at the very beginning in some specific region to guarantee the technology works
and also there's no critical bugs, et cetera, before we put in and integrate more Web3 features
in about two to three weeks.
So stay tuned and keep an eye on that.
There will be more fun experience
delivered from us very soon.
Awesome. Yes, thank you.
So with that, we will close out the space.
If you are listening,
please give both MJ and Neo a follow.
Wilder World and Moonveil are also listening in the audience,
so you can follow them or just click on the profiles of MJ and Neo,
and I'm sure they have the main link in the bio.
But check it all out.
I really appreciated talking to you guys.
I certainly learned a lot.
You certainly made me more bullish on Web3 Gaming, which is fantastic.
It was a really great time.
And I hope you guys have a great rest of your Monday.
We will be back here on this space next week.
Same time, same place on X.
And we actually have some very fun AgLayer updates.
There will be some announcements coming out, so we'll walk people through this.
And it's funny, we talked about developer experience.
AgLayer is doing a lot to support developers.
So that'll be fun next week.
But until then, everyone, take care, and we will see you all on the internet. Thank you.
