Alright, I think I think we got it figured out how's it going guys? Thank you everybody for joining us for this spaces Apologies for the little mix up. I'll see you guys
trying to invite the speakers up and get everybody in order you guys know how Twitter spaces can be. So I'm excited for this one. I got Vasco with me today. How's it going Vasco?
Doing good, getting good, excited for the spaces. Looks like Karen is connecting still. I don't know, is he, are you here, man?
Okay, we can give it another second. I don't want to mispronounce this name. Crypt Pro. Crypt Pro, right? Am I saying that? Yeah, I can't need to confirm nor deny, but I would imagine I get a Crypt Pro or a Cripro, I don't know. As soon as Karen gets up,
They can have a little bit of context for him. There you go. Let me just add in as a speaker.
Still disconnecting, you might be having a little bit of connection issues. Hello, hello, testing.
How's it going dude? We're excited to have you up. We were just kind of I have a history of pronouncing things wrong or calling people the wrong names. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how to properly pronounce
You know, your firm and what you guys do. Yeah, okay. So my name's Kirin and we're Cryptro. It's quite funny. I forgot how many sailors you had in your community until you released the
the Twitter spaces and they definitely showed up. Oh yeah, especially right now, like a lot of people are really excited and you know the the sake community gets bigger by the day. I'm still like working tirelessly to get the discord.
Server capacity increased to a million because right now we hit a capacity so yeah, it's it's nuts, but we're excited Yeah, you know, it's insane 500k 500k on Twitter. I guess Maybe when you hit 500k, that'll be a big big announcement Yeah, we're excited
We got some stuff planned for sure. I guess like nobody has contacts here about this but like me and Karen go all back like he's one of the first market makers I talked to while working with say so I think this is probably an interesting piece of insight about
our relationship. Yeah good to see you again Vasco is it's been a while maybe a couple of months but it always enjoy chatting with you. Likewise man likewise Joe how should we do this? Should we take it off with just like an intro? Yeah yeah how I like to do it is whenever we have a team I
I like to hear about the team and the background and a little bit of history about the roots because at the end of the day that's probably the most important part of any protocol or project is like between behind it. So I'd love just to get to know you guys and tell us a little bit about what you do.
Of course, well, crypto is a we're market makers, but we're crypto currency market makers. We provide liquidity on and off chain, so on Dex's and sexes within cfi and dfi. We've been around since 2018, so a while and we've definitely
developed a lot over the time, pivoted with the market because this industry changes quite a bit and definitely a lot since 2018. I mean myself I cover the BD side of the business, the business development side and I first got involved in
web 3 at the end of 2020. So after DeFi Summer, which is a shame because I heard it was an exciting time. But my role involves, I guess, working with teams, like, say, finding
opportunities to work together to build together. So a mix of like sales and strategy, bringing you business in to the company and researching where we can be adding value within the industry. So I guess to recap, CryptPro with traders, we're more
it makers, we provide the liquidity throughout the cryptocurrency space. We're quite focused on adding value and seeing where we can benefit the wider ecosystem as a whole. We're a team of 10, so like a
tight knit team based in London and pretty much from a traditional finance background, well most of us are, from a range of big banks, so the dark side and other trading and market making firms.
myself, you know, I spent a few a couple years in like asset management before realising that it was a bit boring and I needed to, you know, be where I was kind of passionate and that's who. So yeah, great.
I can maybe do the same in the audience, probably know me already, since I've been on every single liquidity alliance basis. But I'm part of the core team here at Say, previously founded War 6 protocol, which is the first purpose exchange on Say. And I have a track by background.
as well. I have worked for a matching broker and the liquidity provider and the Forex sector in the city actually, which is pretty close by Karen's office right now, matter of fact they met him a while back in London, got the beer together. So we met our all as well, which is pretty rare in this industry. After that, I'm dealing with ecosystem
growth right now, I'm saying, making sure that we have everything in place for builders to strive in our ecosystem and for Dex's to have the liquidity, competitive pricing and the best experience in building our infrastructure. And this is what the liquidity alliance ultimately is all about. It's enabling
with tools and connections with the best players in this space to make sure that they have everything in place to run the next generation of the centralized exchanges. On this note, Karen, I wanted to pick your brain a little bit. I wanted to give a little bit of insight to our audience on how does your day to day look like at
How does the day-to-day experience look like as a crypto market maker? Yes, so we're juggling a lot because the markets are volatile. The space is always moving. There's always something new.
to work around. But essentially, we're working a lot with exchanges and defy applications and token issuers. So it's a lot of number one risk management. And that's
a benefit of coming from the traditional finance background. We have this kind of risk management framework and background to us, which is very important in the crypto space where things can go topsy-turvy and it's quite volatile in nature. And then it's working with
our partners being dexies, sexes, D5 protocols, so working with these partners and trying to optimize the liquidity we are providing to their protocols.
And that takes a lot of work because it requires really, really optimized tech. And that's why we have an amazing team doing that, doing that job. Personally, my day to day involves a lot of relationship management.
and chatting and finding ways to work together with different people. So yeah, that's kind of a typical day-to-day. Super interesting, man. And I noticed you mentioned like both dexas and dexas, which obviously is pretty interesting on our end because
we are actually not so much for trading and most of the listeners and the builders, they're going to apply to the Creator of the Alliance are Decks builders. As we know, a lot of market makers and institutions have still struggled with integrating their services on decentralized exchanges. So I'm curious to know, there's just another question because I want a little bit of insight on
on how your operations look like. What is the percentage of volume and also maybe the integration? What is the ratio between decentralized and centralized exchanges of CRIPROM? Okay, so the C5 market is,
There's a lot more volume in general in the CFI market, but we're seeing nowadays we're seeing a kind of a shift, a shift in both builders and traders. People are shifting away from CFI venues over to D5 venues. So, you know, maybe like
a year ago it was very, very, very heavily weighted over to see if I and that's beginning to change. You could still say it's still weighted over to the see if I to centralize exchanges but I think we're seeing that change in
general, but we are doing a lot more work on the DeFi side and we feel that this is like an area we can add a ton of value. And this is also why working with partners such as say makes our job a little bit easier because you're looking to save a
solve the same kind of problems that we're trying to help with. You also have a thriving community of builders, of sailors who are also looking to solve these kind of problems, build applications.
for all types of traders. And so we're just trying to play our part in pushing those forward and kind of fueling them. Okay, so you could say that the quiet pro is bullish on the centralized exchanges, which is great. I guess I'll
On this note, I know you guys are mostly focused on delta neutrality and making sure that risk management is in place and pricing is right and and and and Bob Bob and Kristen all like do you have also like do you focus on trends and you know where
What do you see the DeFi and the centralized exchanges in innovation going in the next couple of years? Outside of like, infra, well, I would like your insight on also like the infrastructure side of things since we're building a blockchain. But yeah, I'm curious to know like a 300-degree view of the future of DeFi for you guys.
Yeah, so, you know, we like to, we like to kind of play ahead of the curve and be, be whether innovation is happening because we feel that's, you know, where we can add the most value we can. And we do think,
the shift is happening right towards DeFi. It's kind of a crypto native version of the centralized exchanges that we've been working with for a while. And prior to blockchains such as like yourselves and
like innovations from exchanges such as D.Y.D.X who were the first off chain, order book, matching engine, prior to that, everything was centralized, everything was on CY and it was kind of a
breath of fresh air to have a defile alternative. So yeah, we do believe it's that shift is happening. Where it's going now is quite obvious that trade is one. Perpetual products, you know, perp products are like no,
the hot flavour and it's where all the volume is. But we think that is also shifting as well on the spot side. Uniswap did an amazing job and they've taken a giant market share away from the largest spot-centralised exchanges.
and there's still a ton of innovation to happen on that side. There's one kind of product which is still very nascent indeed, and that's options and it seems like
like, you know, it hasn't really been faxed. Um, yeah, I would say like 99 or 99% of that volume is on centralized services. Um, and so that's somewhere that, uh, I guess people can really
able to put on and bring over to the DeFi space. And hopefully infrastructure such as the infrastructure say brings helps enable that because it's the difference between C, Fire and DeFi and the reason
Why, like, and DeFi has been stopped, you know, the reason why like these DeFi products hadn't come earlier was the limitations of blockchain and those limitations are certainly going away as people, you know, build an
and bring new products in infrastructure to the space. Yeah, and that's exactly what we're trying to address. You know, latency is obviously a huge problem and it impacts, you know, the very important manner, the risk management for market makers and traders in general. But we touched on
a lot of different topics here and I want to just like, you know, maybe get a step back and address me a little bit less tech savvy listeners in the audience. And if you give like a very brief explanation of this is like very high level of the difference between PortoVoc
exchange or maybe like an order book decentralized exchange and an IMM decentralized exchange and Yeah, what is the trade-off between you two and maybe like let's put it Let's put this from a from a market making point of view like what is for example the pain of integrating with order book exchange with respect to an IMM and vice versa since we want to be
as well that are going to ultimately have to make that decision. Okay, of course, yeah. So yeah, I guess this is a quite a relevant topic because it seems like there's a kind of like a war between the two at the moment, especially on the derivative side. There's
You've got AMM style products which are essentially people trading against a pool of assets. So LPs will passively place a pool of assets to be traded against and traders will trade against those assets. So their LPs will take one side and the traders, you know,
take the side that they want they want to go along, kind of LPs are exposed to the short side and I guess it's different in like a spot market right there's a thing called impermanent loss or impermanent gain and yeah so on to
On the other side you have limit order or order book style exchanges. This is what you typically see in centralized finance, right? In Binance, Coinbase, etc. All of these, you know, common in use centralized services.
are pretty much audiobook type exchanges where people can place bids and asks which take bids are kind of buying offers at certain prices and are so sell offers at certain prices.
And so what this allows is it allows for really efficient pricing. You can price assets with very specific sizes at very specific prices. This is, you know, that's, I would say this is one of the main differences and why
It's way more intuitive for a market maker to use an order book style decks than the AMM because we are able to price assets the way we need to price them with the efficiency which is brought by...
matching engine, which gets orders super quickly. So yeah, I guess I took it again, those two things, right? There's the ability to customise your strategy and where you want to place orders, and then the second thing that an order bit brings is it brings
increase speed and latency and the efficiency of like a matching engine as soon as you as soon as you as soon as someone hits a price which is on the beard or the ask that can be matched by the matching engine and then settled.
So because of all of that, another benefit is that fees can be brought down massively for the end user that's a massive UX increase, a massive user experience benefit fees. So we're seeing
certain, you know, all the work style exchanges having fees under 10 basis points for the majority of their pairs, even under five basis points for the majority of the pairs, that's 0.0%, whereas, you know, a typical AMM fee would be
upwards of 30 basis points or upwards of even 1% which is a drastic difference between two. And then you mentioned the infrastructure side. For us, we can
Then as long as there's infrastructure which is somewhat comparable to the infrastructure we have on centralized finance, we're able to use the R-stack and we're able to use the tech that we have effectively. And that means
like having efficient APIs, you know, fast latency and infrastructure architecture. And this is often something that doesn't come with, you know, AMMs, you frequently see like
API, like a C5 style API attached to older big style dexes. So yeah, this is another massive pain point that, you know, DFI has to kind of improve if they want market makers to improve
through pricing and bring more efficient pricing, they need to improve the tech and the architecture and work alongside market makers to do that. And that's something we really enjoy doing with our partners. And it's the way we found that we can really add value, helping improve that kind of infrastructure.
That's great to hear and I'm totally agree on all of the points that you mentioned and I would say that anyone in here that experience in some way DeFi and you know how to chance to play around with the centralized exchanges understands and knows the limits of our mms today and that's why we've seen so many
many order book exchanges pop up in the last year. Even all the different iterations of IMMs that we're seeing right now, like Uniswap, V3, and the liquidity book of Trader Joe are somewhat getting closer and closer to our order book model. That's why these new pieces of infrastructure
these new blockchains, APTOL, SUE and SAY, which is the fastest out there right now, are so interesting because they're going to enable the infrastructure needed and it's low latency environment that is needed for these waterberg decks is to 5, like both on the derivative side and the spot side as well. So we're very excited from
because this is the point of view to see these pop-up. This is the main thing that I would suggest you know if there's any builders listening to experiment in that round. We also have a non-chain matching engine that you guys can easily plug into and start testing out your innovative audiobook exchanges. On this end, for a second, let's just imagine that
300 people that are listening right now are old builders. Let's just address everyone as builders and increase to know, Kirin on your side, how does CryPro differentiate itself with respect to auto market making partners and what exactly are you looking for out there in a market in terms of like a partner for decentralized exchange
Yeah, well, let me just kind of add something to the last point like I I think AMM's definitely have like a place in defy the right they're super important because and I'm sure you have AMM's you know it's it's
building on say as well because they cater for the long tail kind of assets that assets which need passive LPs and stuff like this. So AMMs are definitely very important that I think on the sport and derivative side for a wider range
assets and definitely play a role. So to go to this question that you just asked, which was reminding me, how do you differentiate yourselves? Yeah, exactly. Matching with USBs. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
So, well, I guess yeah, it is a quite crowded market, right? There's lots of market makers out there offering similar services. And I think for this reason, it's very important that as a market maker, you're adding value.
You know, most of the partnerships like we work on. We do for the long term we work on like longer term partnerships where we think we can add value and help them build and fuel their products that they're building. So we look for, you know, those type of collaboration.
where it's not just like a typical listing partnership where we're helping a token list or a token market making partnership but we're looking for business that we can build upon.
So that's how we differentiate ourselves. Of course our tech alone kind of differentiates ourselves, so it is all our own proprietary tech and now goes built in-house by you know our amazing traders and tech teams.
So yeah, that's the other thing. All market makers are different because they come with a different style, a different build, different amounts of risk management, etc. So yeah. Yeah, and I think the first point that you touched upon is it's actually a very important
building a long-term relationship and a long-term partnership with market makers can really make the difference between making and breaking either an exchange or a token for any sort of blockchain application. So it is great to hear that you are in that group. And I just wanted to address this a little bit of a backing forth.
on the IMM side of things, IMM, yes, or the book side of things, I may have miswarded, like IMMs are a great piece of innovation and as you mentioned they are a great piece of infrastructure to have for long-tail asset and especially also like ironically for launching new tokens with great
liquidity. It's very easy to do so with IMMs and it's very complicated to find out the liquidity for for order books. And as a matter of fact, we have we have seen an inverse trend on the order book side for liquidity provision to enable the liquidity provision for retail. For example, a lecture is a protocol that is building on say and they're integrated with our
or the bugdex is to make sure that anyone with no technical experience and no market-making experience can actually plug into these decks and provide liquidity. So in an LP pool style fashion, IMM style. So it's kind of like a back and forth. They're probably going to coexist and they're going to find their market niches.
We're excited to see this development in general with the centralized exchanges and our ecosystem. And touching upon the listing process, I'm curious to know maybe a little bit more in general high level, how do market makers operate when they help to talk in listing either on decentralized or on centralized exchanges?
And maybe also like specifically, how does this work from crypro? How does an average listing day look like at crypro? Yeah, so to go back to what token kind of token issuers need, they need
You know, efficient markets so their users can, you know, do the the main activity that is, you know, done within within Web3 within crypto trade exchange. So to do this, they, you know, projects work with market makers to provide liquidity on.
And decentralized exchanges and decentralized exchanges. Right. Obviously on AMMs. It's especially V2 style AMMs. It's quite quite simple for them to do that themselves. Just list the market, provide the liquidity yourself. Allow your community to also provide liquidity.
you're looking at kind of a V3 star AMM which is sort of has limited all that aspects to it and then also looking at audiobook style dexies and audiobook style centralised exchanges so pretty much every like like a buy and answer coin based
etc. You need a professional market maker to provide that liquidity for you because it's a very tech intensive job and if done wrong with the kind of wrong risk management, you end up losing money.
And it's not great for everyone. So essentially how do we do this? So when a token issuer comes to us asking for liquidity kind of services, we
We kind of go through all the different scenarios with them and advise them as to, you know, where do they want to list? What kind of liquidity are they looking for on an essential Isaac change? What kind of case
APIs that they're looking for, so the amount of size on the book and the depth. And so once we've kind of hashed out all this information with a partner, we'll introduce them to different exchanges and allow them to find the best fit for like a initial listing for
And often, that might be a large exchange if it's a kind of well funded project because often these exchanges may have certain fees associated with them but it also might be a smaller exchange. And then, since we're, you know,
integrated with most of these exchanges already where active traders is a simple process of either using our own balance sheet to assist them with liquidity and taking a loan of their
can then use our like a USCT or ETH or whatever the quote currency is chosen to be or taking a loan of both of these kind of balance sheets, both these assets to provide liquidity and then we use our own kind of algorithms to create tight, efficient pools
efficient markets on these centralized and decentralized venues. We work off flexible models. So we really try and find the best model for the partner we're working with.
freeing them, you know, a retainer model, kind of a cool option model and a mix of the two. And often, like, often cool option models get a bad rap because I think as you know, like, you know, there's a few market makers who
who do make a lot of money off these call-option models, but at some times it's the only option for certain projects because in a retainer model they're paying upfront fees to a market maker. So for this
respect we offer a range of different models and let the partner choose what's best for them. Man, yeah, sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. Now that's it, that's it, you'll find more. Yeah, well thank you very much for the insight and obviously I would
I would strongly recommend any builder in a state ecosystem listening to try this for yourself and reach out, either for our liquidity alliance forum or directly to crypro or directly to me or directly to us. Anyone we can help you out in the process of getting you connected with with Karen and maybe have a preliminary chat and potentially ending up looking
You're talking together. I guess I just wanted to unwrap one last thing and then we can maybe hand it over to Joe for the final innings of the space. You mentioned the retainer model and the call option model. This is something that a lot of our listeners may not be aware with since you know, it's pretty
specific to crypto, the sort of arrangements, and a lot of people that come, for example, from track file or other backgrounds, may not be aware of how specific the DS deals work. So if you can obviously go and wrap the retainer model, that's pretty straightforward. I'm curious to know if you could give us a little bit, like a very high level explanation of how the call option model works.
Yeah, so I mean the main reason for a call option is if a partner doesn't have the funds ready, you know, upfront to pay for a monthly retainer and a monthly retainer is, you know, like a certain fee a month in
in the Fiat or stable coins or whatever. A cool option is kind of upside in usually in the projects token. A certain price is set which is called a strike price.
And if the price is above that strike price at a certain date, then the market maker has the option to exercise this call option. So in the scenario where, you know,
the market maker exercises the call option with the use with kind of the terms agreed upon the market maker may receive a certain amount of tokens at a certain price.
Thank you very much, sir. I have this is all in my end to be honest and thank you for like answering all of these questions in a row. This has been amazing, Karen. I don't know if Joe has any questions of his own or if you want to wrap this up, get some questions from the community and some final thoughts. Yeah.
No, for sure. I had one question personally. I know you guys talk a lot and market makers do a lot to the V5 space. Have you guys explored, you know, maybe market making for other digital assets like maybe gaming assets or
NFTs or things like that, is that something that you guys have thought about internally or that you currently do? So the NFT space is super interesting to us, like we've been diving in and researching it for a while.
and especially with the stuff that Blair and other audiobook style and of team market places I brought out with their bids and you know list things. So
It's definitely an area where we're very keen to get into. Even, there's a really cool application called NFTPup, which is like a perpetual exchange for
So you can trade, you know, NFTs select amount of NFTs perpetually with leverage. So I mean, it's super interesting to us. However, at the moment, it's a hard space for market makers in general to get involved in.
I know they're very specific market makers who do NFT market making only, but for like a fungible market maker, a market maker that trades fungible tokens, it's quite hard because it's a complete shift.
in the kind of risk curve, right? Because you're trading with much less liquid assets and there's no real pace to hedge your exposure to those assets. So like when we're trading like Bitcoin, for example,
trading Bitcoin and replacing bids and asks in the same way you place a bid on blur and a list as an ask on blur. We're placing that on Bitcoin, right? But we're also able to hedge our inventory and our delta, which is really
super important for market makers because it allows you to not be exposed to volatility that you don't want to be exposed to. And so that's really not available at the moment in the right kind of
with the right kind of liquidity in the NFT space. But I really like what this application NFT purpose doing and I think that's something that will really help market makers in the future as liquidity grows, get into that space and we're
keeping our eyes peeled about the NFT space for sure. Awesome. Awesome. And I must commend you too. We've been kind of throwing questions at you and talking and you've been doing a great job of explaining to the community about what you guys do and your thought process behind it.
That's all the questions that I had and you know we got some other spaces later this week so if any sailors want to come by and ask questions there but I think this was great. If you guys want to give any concluding statements before I kind of wrap it up let me know VASCO or Kirin.
the four years. I'm really looking forward to your main that. So when main that? Very soon, guys. Jodhers, no way you're going to explain to us questions, man. Even if you're
If you wrap it up without the Q&A, you're always going to get this question. Yeah, that's what I was trying to avoid. And then we got it from the, I feel betrayed, but you know, like I said, guys, it's good. It's, it's good that we're, you know, taking our time to do this, but the day is, the day is coming.
It's coming very soon and I can't say anything more than that because I do value my job and I do value my position in the safety ecosystem. So thank you guys. Thank you guys for joining the spaces and and thank you Karen for coming up and kind of you know coming up to the hot seat letting us ask away. We really appreciate it.
Cheers, I care and it's been a pleasure. Oh, it's you Yeah, thanks guys catch you in a bit See you guys in this footage Cheers