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π¨LIVE: IMRAN KHAN, Former Prime Minister of Pakistan
Recorded: June 23, 2023 Duration: 1:43:01Space Recording
Short Summary
The transcript primarily focuses on the political situation in Pakistan, with former Prime Minister Imran Khan discussing his challenges, including legal battles, censorship, and the political climate. Additionally, there is mention of a developing coup in Russia, highlighting geopolitical tensions.
Full Transcription
Hey guys, how are you?
Doing good.
How about yourself?
Doing well.
Crazy day.
Yeah, this whole...
Incredible guests and then the latest developments in Russia as well.
So, Danish, if you could please invite the speakers, or Suleiman, you know how to do it.
If you could please invite the speakers.
In the meantime, I'm just kind of give an update on the latest development before we get into the segment that we have today.
So I'm going to go through and I've just tweeted it as well.
Just a bit of an update because I know a lot of people are asking about it.
It just happened about 10 to 15 minutes ago.
So I'll read out what I wrote.
So there's claims of a military coup happening in Russia as Wagner, which is the Russian mercenary group, declares war on the Russian Ministry of Defense.
So that happened about 15, 20 minutes ago.
So we're watching, our whole team is watching this very closely.
We'll be covering this afterwards.
We'll be covering the development's life if they continue.
We're trying to verify everything.
So I'll read out what we know so far.
Despite the Russian, so Yevgeny, who's the head of the mercenary group Wagner,
he's accused Russia of bombing his military sites in Ukraine.
So the defense ministry initially claimed that there's no truth to his claims.
But the gentleman said, Wagner, Yevgeny said that 25,000 mercenaries would take part in a military coup organized by him.
And he said the following.
Those who destroyed our guys today who destroyed tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.
So when he says tens of thousands of Russian lives, he might be referring to the entire war here.
Or he is.
Igor, who is an ex-federal security service member.
or he was the head stated quote the military coup attempt has begun multiple sources are claiming that an emergency statement is being prepared by russia's ministry of defence other sources are claiming that russia's national guard is on alert or on high alert
Yevgeny's or Pregogev, he sent an audio message about 30 minutes ago now, or less 26 minutes ago.
Details start emerging. The Ministry of Defense urgently arrived to Rostov in order to conduct an operation to destroy Wagner.
He used artillerymen and helicopter pilot covertly to destroy us.
My thoughts on this is either Yevgeny is falsely claiming his camp as bomb, but there must be a pretext for something, or the Kremlin's attacking Wagner.
You know, they've been sparring for a long time.
Or this is all an accident, and the Yevgeny is overreacting and other developers before we begin the show today.
Nine minutes ago, Putin is aware of the situation unfolding around Progogian.
All necessary measures are being taken.
That's according to the Russian press secretary.
And two minutes before that, or two minutes after that, according to the National Anti-Terrorism Committee,
the allegations spread on behalf of Progosen, sorry, have no basis.
And they say, in connection with these statements, the FSB of Russia initiated a criminal case
on the fact of calling for an armed rebellion.
We demand that illegal action be stopped immediately.
And the Ukrainian sources are saying there's infighting among Russian troops.
And also lastly, a minute ago, Progogian statement was labeled as a case initiated as a call for armed rebellion.
That's again to the Russian national anti-terrorism community.
So we'll be covering, we'll be watching this story very closely.
Otherwise, we do have an incredible guest today.
We have the former Prime Minister of Pakistan joining us, Imran Khan.
It's been an honor to have this organized, and we've been preparing for this all weeks,
probably the show that I've prepared to the most.
And Salaiman was pretty surprised when we had a call, and I told them what I've prepared for.
We will keep this away from politics as much as possible, because it doesn't matter on what political side you're on.
What is happening right now in Pakistan is beyond what I expected.
And I knew there's a lot going on.
I've been watching the news, but I did not know how deep the censorship was
and how polarized the country is.
And we all talk about the establishment.
Szilaman is one of the most vocal people I know talking about the establishment.
And me and him fight a lot about it.
And he talks about how much influence it has.
And I kind of dismiss it in a way.
Well, in Pakistan, it goes to a whole new level.
I know some people like to compare what's happening in Pakistan
and to Mr. Khan to what's happening to Donald Trump.
But as I've said to them, it's another level.
What's happening in Pakistan is something that is very far from a democracy in the US.
And you struggle, or at least some people struggle to call Pakistan a democracy.
Now, there's two sides to this.
Others say this is democracy in action, but a lot of people cannot neglect
at least in the last few weeks and months, that is difficult to call it a democracy.
Or at least that's my personal opinion.
Sulema and Danish would love to get your thoughts on what I've said so far
and the space we have planned today.
Yeah, for me, I think the largest or major issue was what you're referring to,
and that is a censorship and the second aspect of it that is highly concerning is
where a political party or those who are in power use that power to essentially ensure
that their rivals are unable to stand for election, which is the case for Imran Khan.
And the second thing is that they prosecuted to such an extent, both the
members of the party as well as their family members.
That's what was surprising for me.
To the extent where you are basically ensuring that the person who has the largest number
of following is unable to stand in a fair election.
The second aspect of it, what I found completely baffling this week that I only found out
about was that Imran Khan had not only been completely censored.
in the media, but more than that, they weren't even able to mention his name.
I just find that highly ridiculous.
And we would never have this kind of scenario in the Western world.
So those are just a couple of initial thoughts that I have that I found that are problematic.
Just imagine, on the last point, I let you finish Slaman.
On the last point you said, I just want to highlight it, the last point,
imagine talking about Trump, but none of the media outlets can mention Trump's name or Biden or anybody.
Right.
Or we cannot say it here.
I think the way they say in Pakistan and Suli, I want you to continue your thoughts.
But imagine in we're speaking here and we call we call Trump the father of Donald Trump Jr.
Or we can't say Donald Trump Jr. either.
Or the ex-member of the TV show who wants to be a millionaire.
But Suley, man, continue, please.
Yeah, and just to continue with your analogy, the shocking part was where family members are targeted.
So it's like, for example, Eric Trump or Melania Trump being targeted in the same manner, just because you don't want him to stand.
But not just that, people in the party.
So, for example, imagine, you know, like Giuliani's family being targeted.
And so that's the extent of which I found highly shocking this week when I've looked into the issue.
I appreciate.
Danish, initial thoughts?
Danish, I'll give you initial thoughts
and I'd welcome Mr. Khan on stage.
But first, Danish,
we'd love to get your thoughts on the show we have today.
You know, what's absolutely challenging in this moment
is seeing how the Pakistani people are being treated
during this whole issue.
The economic meltdown that has occurred over the past few weeks, how
internet has been put down in Pakistan and you know we've got to take a second back and say wow like this is what's happening to the Pakistani people right now so I'm beyond honored that you know Prime Minister Amran Khan is here to talk about his experience I will start with the intro
So Mr. Khan, you are the former Prime Minister of Pakistan and arguably, or in my opinion at least,
you're the biggest name in the country right now.
You faced multiple assassination attempts. It actually took me a while to search and find more
information about all of them. There's been so many. And the most recent one was less than a year ago,
where you were shot in the leg and almost shot in the head. You're currently facing over 150
charges, including treason, corruption, murder and terrorism.
You were ousted, some say overthrown just over a year ago.
This was the first time in history a prime minister in Pakistan was removed through a no-confidence vote.
You're also currently facing two arrest warrants that are non-bailable.
That was only issued two days ago.
And we've also heard that your lawyer was possibly kidnapped six days ago.
I would like to welcome you on stage, Mr. Kahn.
It's a pleasure to have you, and I appreciate you making the time.
I would love to get your thoughts and the latest developments, especially on the latest developments.
Mr. Kahn.
Mario, it's a pleasure being on the show.
I look forward to your questions.
And your introduction, long introduction was pretty accurate.
So I look forward to your questions.
My questions will initially focus on you as a person, but before doing so, everyone in the world,
Pakistan is a nuclear power.
It's the fifth most populous country in the world and has the sixth largest army in the world,
with some say hostile neighbors.
Mr. Khan, how did a country with such a large population and such a large military,
how did it get to where we are today and where do you see Pakistan heading?
Well, Mario, look, in the 60s, when I was in school,
Pakistan was considered one of the fastest growing economies in the developing world, especially
in Asia.
It was given as an example of a country which was ahead of the other countries in development.
And Pakistan's development model was taken by other countries like South Korea at the time
and Malaysia.
So where did we go wrong?
We went wrong if in a lot of things we did wrong.
We didn't pay attention to our human beings.
Countries develop when you develop your human beings, invest in your human capital.
But where we went wrong is that we never, ever had rule of law.
Now rule of law means that the powerful are under the law, the weak are protected from the powerful.
And the difference, and this is my experience all over the world, especially when I went as a teenager to the United Kingdom, the difference between the poor countries and the rich countries is one.
Rich countries have rule of law, level playing field, rule of law gives them freedom, gives the people rights, and it's that freedom that makes communities prosper.
The problem with the developing world is that like Pakistan, there's one law for the powerful.
They're above law.
And the majority of the population do not have access to justice.
They do not have their fundamental rights protected.
And as a result, they don't have a level playing field.
So therefore, you have these tragedies now where people are gone, illegal immigrants, get on these boats
and try to get to countries which have rule of law, which are prosperous.
And invariably, you find the immigrants going from countries,
where there is poor law enforcement rule of law to countries which have rule of law and are prosperous.
So where did Pakistan go wrong? I'm afraid we never were brought under the law.
And so, you know, I'm afraid that's what's kept us from achieving our potential.
Mr Khan, you've got the world watching right now.
And most people don't know your story.
I'm originally from Australia and cricket is big in Australia.
Yeah.
You were seen as a sex symbol, or you were labeled as a sex symbol back in the 80s according to 60 minutes.
Cricket's first sex symbol and the most glamorous person in sports.
And today, you're the biggest name in politics in Pakistan or in Pakistan period.
Do you wish you never entered politics?
Look, Mario, this is not how, you know, I plan my life.
My life was, you know, from the age of nine years onwards.
I always had a challenge in my life.
And so cricket, at the age of nine,
I decided to become a test cricketer,
play for my country.
And because I watched my first cousin,
He performed very well in a match my mother took me to watch.
And from then on, I wanted to be a cricketer.
So life always had a purpose and it always had a challenge.
So when you try and reach the top in your country, the top 11 players,
so that's a big struggle.
And then once you get there, to stay there is another big struggle.
So my life as a cricketer was, I learned so much from playing international cricket.
Because you see, for all those listening right now, look, what does sports do?
international sports, you can only succeed if you are able to take the knocks,
if you're able to pick yourself up from a defeat.
Because, you know, whenever you're trying to compete with the best,
you always have, you know, you lose, you have bad times, you have bad cycles.
Now, the difference between sports and, say, business or maybe politics,
is that those cycles are spread out.
In sports, it's almost on a daily basis.
You're either winning or losing.
So if you cannot cope with losing, with the bad times,
if you cannot pick yourself up from the floor when you've been defeated,
you never make it.
So the best lesson I learned in sports, first of all,
was this ability to never give up,
to learn from your mistakes, to analyze your defeats,
and then pick yourself up.
So that helped me in what I did after I stopped playing cricket.
So after I stopped playing cricket,
I had wanted to build a cancer hospital in Pakistan
because my mother died of cancer.
And the poor people, rich people could afford to go abroad for cancer treatment
But the majority of people just couldn't afford cancer treatment.
So hence, this idea of building a cancer hospital.
So that took me, you know, six or seven years when I did manage to build one
and now have a second one and a third one.
And that's all for charity.
But I learned all the way it was the sports that taught me
to take on challenges and then take you know when the bad times came i knew how to cope with it
and finally i entered politics but politics i entered what i started off my my uh conversation with
that i discovered that pakistan
we will never achieve our potential unless we have rule of law.
So I started my movement for justice, and that was 27 years ago.
But when I started this, I knew I would be up against the mafias,
the powerful people who were above law.
So I knew I was always going to have a tough time, you know, facing these powerful people.
and and so I knew it was going to be a struggle
and for about 15 years I struggled
was in the wilderness
people made fun of me
no one thought I would ever succeed
and people you know had written me off
I was but of all the jokes
And then suddenly the people, somehow my message went through.
And from then onwards, the party just went from strength to strength.
And today it is the biggest party in Pakistan, arguably the biggest party in Pakistan's history.
Mr Khan, you talk about going through difficult times,
but that's what people like me, entrepreneurs or other entrepreneurs
or people that have achieved something in life talk about.
But you're sitting home right now, you cannot see your son.
You've faced an assassination attempt.
You have bails for your arrest, you have warrants for your arrest that are non-bailable.
Your lawyer arguably got kidnapped six days ago.
This is not a tough time.
This is something that one cannot wish against their biggest enemy.
Sitting home right now, how are you coping with all this?
How are you coping with all this pressure and what do you expect to happen over the next few weeks and months?
Well, Mario, look, it is a very tough time, not just for me.
It's a tough time for our country because we are going through one of our worst political and economic crisis.
But it is the worst time for my party workers because 10,000 of them have been stuffed into jails.
And this is the hottest time of the year.
And they are stuck in these cells, you know,
overcrowded cells and horrendous stories coming out from there are you know and
lot of women I mean there were about almost 300 women they put in jail so they are
going through the worst time I mean I'm still in my house although I expect to be
you know arrested maybe in the next 10 days I'm mentally prepared that they will
put me to jail because I already have 170 cases
And all my time has spent from, I mean, in the last 19 days, I have had to go to courts to deal with 70 cases.
Just in the last 19 days.
So it's a matter of time before, and they keep on.
More cases are sort of every known, then there are more cases thrown at me.
So I expect to be in jail.
But the country at the moment is going through one of its worst economic crisis,
but also political crisis because no one is certain where we are headed.
And you said you expect to be in jail or do you accept that?
as in your mentally prepared to be in jail because that was my next question.
When I talk to your team, a lot of your team members are outside of Pakistan.
They're having family members harassed, many have them arrested.
We have the Pakistani Interior Minister said either us or Imran Khan will get murdered.
Are you mentally prepared to be in jail, sir?
Look, let me first explain again to the audience, the situation in Pakistan.
What happened was that my government was removed
almost 14 months ago.
And it was the ex-Army Chief,
who was then the Army Chief,
he then conspired with the current Prime Minister,
and they removed my government.
So they, although it was the best economic performances
in 17 years, you know, it was,
it's all in our economic survey that we,
last two years, our economy performed the best growth rate
and, you know, the country was moving in the right directions.
Anyway, he removed our government.
But what happened was that they expected
the army chief and the people who conspired with them,
they expected that once the government is removed,
it would be the end of my political party.
But something unexpected happened in Pakistan.
On 9th April 22, my government was removed.
On 10th April, for the first time in our history,
hundreds and thousands of people came out in the streets protesting.
And not my party workers, but just people came out in the streets.
So something what was unexpected by the army chief or the military establishment happened.
And from then onwards, they thought that, you know, it was a matter of time before this bubble would burst and people would stop supporting me.
But then in the by-elections, out of 37 by-elections,
Despite the establishment, everyone favoring the government parties, 12 of them on one side,
we swept 30 out of 37 elections.
So that's when my life became a threat.
That's when the first assassination attempt took place.
Because the popularity kept going up, they then thought to remove me from the scene by assassinating me.
And I was very lucky to survive it.
And after that, there was another attempt on 28th of, on the 18th of March, another attempt on my life.
So I was lucky, you know, I have faith in the Almighty.
I believe that death is in Almighty's hands.
We try and take precautions, but eventually, you know, when the time comes, you go.
So I don't, I have conquered my fear of dying.
But the thing is the government parties and the establishment,
they do not want to seem in power.
So hence this crackdown has taken place
where they've virtually trying to dismantle my party.
But the problem they are facing is that you can get rid of the leadership.
You can even try and tell, you know, the sort of pressures
they are putting on our leaders to leave my party.
or even our ticket holders to leave not stand on our ticket i mean it's never happened in
pakistan before such naked fascism has never taken place in this country before but what is happening
is that the vote bank is intact in fact the vote bank is growing so they have a problem now even though
they can get rid of uh you know some of our senior leadership by pressuring them to leave the party
But the problem is the vote bank is increasing, if anything.
So this is where the dilemma is, what do they do next?
I think they will put me in jail.
They'll try to disqualify me.
That is where we are headed right now.
But, you know, it's not going to even whenever there are elections,
my party is going to win the elections.
So even if I'm in jail, the party is going to win the elections.
So, you know, answer to your question, Mario, yes, it's a very tough time.
Okay.
Toughest time for me in my 27 years of politics, probably in my life, 70 years of life.
But it is much worse for my workers who are now stuck in this heat and these cells and jails and not being fed properly.
That worries me much more.
Mr. Khan, I've got a question that relates to something you mentioned and then we'll go to my co-hosts.
And by the way, Mr. Khan, I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's been reports and we'll be covering this later of a possible coup happening in Russia or reports of a coup that's going on.
You probably heard about this news.
But something I'd mentioned to you since you're being with us here on stage.
And we have the chief of Wagner that's mentioning some...
a lot of major comments and the Kremlin's responding.
But let me go back to the discussion.
You said that we all learn from, it's all about learning from mistakes.
I would ask you this question, and we know about the amount of influence the Pakistani military
has in everything that happens in the country.
So as a prime minister, is there one mistake you've learned from?
Is there one thing you would do differently?
Okay.
A lot of mistakes, you know, Mario, over my 27 years of cricketing, I mean, a political career, I've learned a lot.
Three and a half years as Prime Minister was probably the most I learned in my life because it was a very difficult time.
I mean, we inherited a bankrupt economy and then we had two years of COVID straight away.
So, you know, COVID-19 was a international crisis.
So that in itself challenged us.
And then, you know, I was quite proud that we had really,
we were considered one of the best countries that cope with the COVID-19 challenge.
And then we, you know, our economy recovered.
And it was one of our best performances.
Now, what is the lesson I learned?
The lesson I learned was that I, my aim was to bring the powerful under the law in Pakistan.
in other words, rule of law.
And again, I repeat that that's a big difference between rich and poor countries.
Poor countries are not poor because of lack of resources.
It's because they don't have rule of law.
And countries like Holland and Netherlands and Scandinavia,
compared to Pakistan, for instance, they don't have more resources.
But because they have rule of law,
They are prosperous countries and we, you know, despite all the resources, are struggling.
So therefore, my whole...
the whole motivation was rule of law to be in government.
I wanted to bring the powerful under the law.
But, you know, I had a very thin majority.
I had a coalition government.
My government just wasn't strong enough.
And so the moment I would go after the powerful,
they had tentacles everywhere,
and they would be able to, you know, stop me from...
from achieving what I wanted to do to establish rule of law.
Therefore, the mistake I've made was, I mean, I'm saying when I was in government,
the biggest mistake I made was I should have immediately called for elections.
If I was to do it again, I would have called for elections.
And unless I had a proper majority, a powerful government,
I should not have taken on the government.
Because, you know, if you want to make changes and bring reforms
and establish the rule of law, you cannot do it with a weak government.
So that was the, you know, if you ask me, the biggest mistake I made.
Sholeman?
Prime Minister Imran Khan, this is Suleiman. It's an honour to have you on stage.
And my question is this. So you mentioned about the rule of law in the Western world.
In your book, Pakistan, a personal history, you mentioned about your upbringing when you studied in the United Kingdom, in the University of Oxford, that you learned certain English traditions.
Yes.
and you appreciated a lot of the traditions.
Now, my question to you is,
how did that impact your perspective in terms of applying that to
when you became Prime Minister of Pakistan
and the importance of those ideals about law and so on and so forth?
Look, you know, when I, as a teenager,
went to England and then I went to university there,
what struck, two things struck me.
One was a welfare state.
a human society you know first time i saw welfare state was in england and you know the other
was rule of law that even the powerful were not above law the prime minister you know he had to
conform with the law of the land and now boris johnson having to go on something which would not even
have made news in pakistan
You know, so that, so everyone, the law is for everyone.
So that struck me because here we had, when I went to England, we had martial law here.
So the military was above law.
Or we had subsequently these two families who also were above law.
The powerful were always above law in our country.
So that struck with me.
And therefore, when I became the prime, or even when I started my political struggle 27 years ago,
these were the two aims.
So I tried my best when we were in government to lift the bottom tier of the population.
We had, you know, two of the programs which are acknowledged abroad.
Like, for instance, our SAS program, which was to a...
provide welfare to the bottom tier of the society was appreciated by World Bank and international, you know, during the COVID-19, it was considered one of the best programs.
And secondly, we had this health card where we gave health insurance to our population.
And so, you know, so one was the welfare to have a welfare state moving towards that.
And second was the rule of law, which I'm afraid I failed because I, as I said before,
I just did not have a strong enough majority.
Danish.
Islam al-a-a-a-a-a-combe, Prime Minister Khan.
You know, I wanted to ask primarily about your commentary around the establishment.
You know, when you came to power in 2018, it was well established that you had the support
of the army at that time.
Clearly, something happened during your time and power where that relationship soured.
Can you tell all of us what has been going on in Pakistan?
Obviously, you mentioned the two families.
You mentioned that we've had martial law for a long time.
But you enjoyed some of the benefits of having their support.
Can you tell us what has happened between you and the army?
And where do things stand now?
Look, in Pakistan's history,
Almost half the time we have been ruled by the military and the other half we have been ruled by these two families.
So mine was an anomaly. I mean, we broke through a two-party system and that's when my party won.
So let me just make it clear. When I won in 2018, we won the elections fair and square.
We did not win because we came through the power of the military, but they did not oppose us.
That's a big difference because, you know, they were not opposing my party.
The military established was not opposing PTI.
And so what went wrong?
I mean, I recognize that, you know, if the military has been in power directly or indirectly for 75 years.
So, therefore, I had to work with them.
Work with them means the army chief.
And, you know, for a while, the relationship worked.
You know, we were, for instance, COVID-19,
the logistics support given by the military was outstanding.
I mean, that's how we managed to succeed
and was given as an example of the top three countries
which cope with the COVID-19 crisis, best of all.
But the problem happened when...
The army chief decided to switch horses.
So why he decided I still don't know.
My hunch is that it was because he wanted an extension.
And he was assured an extension by the current prime minister.
But I, so he's best supposed to answer that question.
What happened?
So I am recognizing that, you know, you can't work without the military establishment.
Although in the future, let me just say, correct you in the future, what needs to be done.
Look, in any management system, the person who has the responsibility must have the authority.
If you split the two.
No management system works where the authority is,
someone else has the authority and someone else has the responsibility.
So an elected prime minister is supposed to have the responsibility.
But unless he has the authority, the governance system doesn't work.
So in our case, as long as the army chief was on board, things would happen.
But if he did not want something, if he vetoed something,
I mean, you couldn't have it done him.
So that's the problem.
And I'm saying looking ahead, the crisis Pakistan faces crisis of governance.
It cannot work in this hybrid system anymore.
So if we look at Pakistani politics, there's two parties that dominated it before you came in.
That's the PPP and the PMLN.
And now we obviously have the PTI, arguably the biggest party in Pakistan.
Nazar Sharif, who's the brother of the current Prime Minister, was jailed for corruption.
Bouta was assassinated back in 2007, and her husband was charged with corruption before becoming
president.
So the reason I mention all this is I want to link it back to Danish's question and your comments
is the influence the military has in Pakistan.
It feels like that everyone is just a pawn of the military, and I don't mean to call you so
a porn, but I feel like it's a general statement that I would make looking at the landscape
in Pakistan, and I know it's a lot more complex.
But it also feels like corruption is simply part of the political system.
Like no, and I know there's corruption allegations against you as well,
it just feels like no president, nobody in Pakistan within the government
could avoid being charged with corruption or avoid playing by the military's rule.
Is that a fair statement?
Let me first say one thing.
My government was the only government not removed, not because of corruption.
Other governments, when the two main parties in the 90s, they were removed twice each.
for corruption. And the corruption charges against the two main parties were, we inherited them.
They were, when they were in power, these corruption cases were against them were made then.
One of them was the famous Panama scandal where there was an expose of offshore accounts of various heads of
world leaders and ministers, you know, I don't know whether you remember the Panama scandal in 2016.
So that's when they were, their properties came out in London and the Sharif family's properties.
So we inherited this all in 2018. Now, my government never was charged for corruption.
So the army chief afterwards gave a statement saying something ridiculous like he thought that I was dangerous for Pakistan and that's why he had to be removed.
But the point I want to make is, look, corruption is a symptoms when you do not have rule of law.
If you have rule of law, you don't have corruption.
So and why do, and why does corruption destroy the developing world?
because the powerful are the ones who are stealing the most money
and siphling off abroad to offshore accounts.
There's a report by the Secretary General of the United Nations.
It's called the Facti report.
And he got economists to find out why the poor countries were getting poor
and the rich countries were getting richer.
And according to the report,
now this is, Mario, just listed to the startling figures.
$1.7 trillion every year are siphoned off by the ruling elites
illegally, money laundered out of the countries going to Western capitals to offshore accounts,
$1.7 trillion every year.
And there are about $7 trillion of money parked into these offshore accounts from the developing world.
So what is happening is that the ruling elites...
because they don't have rule of law, the powerful above law,
they manage to get away by plundering their countries.
So the poor countries are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer.
And one of the reasons why you have these immigrants sort of dying to cross over to the rich countries,
is because the rich countries don't do anything about it.
Because they benefit from the same flow of capital,
They don't try and stop this.
And I try to raise this, the United Nations.
So in Pakistan, the reason why we have not been able to convict the powerful, although
there are so many cases of corruption against them, is because a weak law enforcement.
The powerful always managed to get out of it.
And the problem also is that we had the general Musharraf.
Now, he spent billions of rupees trying to have these two families convicted
because he removed them on corruption.
And just when there were cases were maturing,
he then does a deal which was called the NRO,
the National Reconciliation Ordinance.
And he gave them immunity.
And so therefore they were back in power for the next 10 years.
So in a society like in Europe or in West,
no one can forgive corruption by the ruling elite.
I mean, no country, no Western country will ever allow this,
that you know you give them immunity.
I mean, you have corruption cases, you give them immunity.
Because you can't, it's public money.
So this is why the problem, not just Pakistan,
it's a problem which most of the developing world faces.
So my next question is relating to possible Western influence or allegations of Western influence in what happened.
So on June 20th, 2021, you said, quote, Pakistan will not allow the CIA or US special forces to base themselves in this country ever again.
Ten months later, you are out.
You did initially, I wouldn't say blame, but you did refer to foreign influence that played a role in the Pakistani protests and for In Your Alstah as well.
And I'll read out a quote you said.
The interests of the U.S. and the West are aligned with the military, maybe because of their support for Ukraine.
But recently you've been shifting more to domestic, to the, I wouldn't call on them, but to domestic powers.
How big of all do you think the U.S. did play in your Alster versus the U.
domestic powers.
Look, Mario, when I made the statement that, you know,
there should not be any basis,
US should not have any basis in Pakistan,
well, that statement was inspired by Pakistan
being part of two conflicts.
In the 80s, we became part of the Afghan jihad
against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
And after 9-11, we became part of the US War on Terror.
Both times Pakistan suffered.
You know, we had U.S. aid, which was for the ruling elite, dollars coming in was great for them.
But the country had five million refugees, Afghan refugees after that.
And we had Kleshnikovs, we had militant sectarian groups in Pakistan.
And then we had the worst thing is, you know, we had...
this drug culture in the country, so it devastated us.
I mean, Pakistan suffered after that joining that Afghan jihad for almost eight, nine years.
Come 9-11, we again join the US in the war on terror.
80,000 Pakistanis die in that war.
I mean, which country becomes an ally and pays such a heavy price?
Over $100 billion were lost to the economy.
So my point is that as Pakistan Prime Minister, my priority should be the people of my country.
And so the top priority also should be that we should not become part of any conflict.
Because, you know, we have 100 million Pakistanis vulnerable, 50 million below the poverty line and 50 million people.
easily can go below the poverty line because any shock, any like price shock or anything can push them down.
So that should be the priority.
Now you can only look after them if you have stability and if you're not part of a conflict.
So that...
comment was inspired from the fact that we should not become,
we should be part of all peace processes,
like Pakistan played a big part in getting the US and the Taliban
to sit together in the peace talks.
But we should not become part of any conflict.
Now what you say about, you know, what happened, you know,
in the outside of my government.
Now, what happens is I'll just narrate you the facts.
On the 6th of March 22th,
I see my ambassador from in Washington, he sends a cipher, a coded message.
And it says that he has an official meeting with an American official who tells him my ambassador that unless I am removed,
I, Prime Minister Imran Khan, is removed in a vote of no confidence, there will be consequences of Pakistan.
And the next day, the vote of confidence is tabled.
So the cipher comes before the vote of no confidence.
And then, you know, within weeks my government goes.
Now, at the time, I thought that it was the U.S. who had instigated this.
Later on, it transpired as things unfolded over a period of time,
that it was actually our army chief who hired this lobbyists from our...
My government's money, he paid him $30,000 to lobby against me that I was supposed to be anti-American and the army chief was pro-American.
So that came out later on.
And so...
So how did I correct myself?
Because I then realized that it wasn't really this didn't originate from Washington.
It was actually from Pakistan, this conspiracy to remove me where he then fed the Americans that I was anti-American.
So that is how it unfolded.
Soleiman.
Prime Minister Khan.
As you know, most of our audience is largely from the United States.
And so...
To continue on with the point that you made just now, how do you envision a relationship between the United States and Pakistan
considering the complexity and the challenges faced by both countries?
Look, Pakistan should always have a good relationship with the US,
simply because not just that the US is a superpower,
But Pakistan's biggest trading partner, I mean, Pakistan, our highest exports are to the U.S.
But not just that, the most powerful expatriate Pakistan community, are the Pakistani American community.
So we should always have good relationship with them.
And so if you ask my point of view, I mean, you know, whatever this cipher and whatever happened, for me, it's all in the past.
The thing is that it is important for us to establish good relationship with them.
And by the way, I had very good relationship with the Trump administration.
Mr. Khan, you've referenced Trump.
Not sure if you could hear me.
I'm not sure if it cut out.
But many compared to what you're going through to Trump's legal challenges.
Both of you have been indicted.
Both of your supporters call this a political witch hunt.
I would not call that comparison because what's going on in Pakistan is...
significantly more serious in my opinion to what's happening in the US but what
would be your message to any Trump supporters that make that comparison look
It's completely different, you know, what's happening to, and I'm not fully aware of the cases on Donald Trump,
mainly because, as you pointed out, my situation right now, all my concentration is really dealing from a day-to-day basis.
It's a sort of game of survival right now here.
But I can tell you that the cases against me, if this was happening in the United States, there would be a public uproar.
You could not, a man, I've been known in this country for 50 years.
I've never had one criminal case against me.
And at the age of 70, suddenly, I have 170 cases against me.
And there are 40 or 50 terrorism cases.
You know, there's blasphemy case.
I mean, there's...
Now there's latest a murder case.
So no one in this country believes this.
You know, just for the audience, I am the biggest.
I received the greatest amount of funds.
I have done more charity work in this country than anyone in the history
because people trust me with their money.
I mean, I run this sort of two cancer hospitals,
which are the biggest charitable institutions in Pakistan.
And the third one about to be completed this year.
Then one university, again, 90% scholarship for students.
So, and then another university about to begin.
So all for charity.
It's because people trust me with their money.
So now no one in this country believes this nonsense.
That's certainly in the last few months, I have 170 cases against me,
criminal cases.
So to answer your question,
You know, it has to be different.
I mean, in the U.S., if these cases were made against me,
I think there would be a public uproar because they're just ridiculous cases.
Whenever I go to the court, they give me bail because there's nothing.
They're bogus cases.
That's why now the government is trying to have military courts.
And so the effort will be now to try me in military courts
because in civil courts, they can't convict me.
Donish?
Sir, you know, we can't talk today without discussing the fact that Modi is visiting the U.S. right now.
And over the course of the last 48 hours, and I know you've had many battles with India on the cricket court or cricket matches and the cricket pitch.
But, you know...
Right now, Modi is aligning himself very closely with the U.S.
They just signed multiple alliances, including in fields like AI, in chip manufacturing, in terms of visas, in terms of every single way that they could possibly align themselves.
India...
and the US are building this alliance.
It's clear that it's happening as India is worried about what's happening in the Indo-Pacific.
What are your thoughts on what's happening between India and the US?
And of course, how do you think that impacts Pakistan?
Well, look, it's good for India.
Clearly, this alliance is very beneficial for India.
And I see the US interest in this alliance because, you know, the containment of China.
And so, you know, this was always going to happen.
In fact, this alliance was building up.
It's not that it's happened suddenly.
For Pakistan, the worrying thing is that, you know, we remember in the 60s, right up to the
80s, Pakistan was actually ahead of India and most of the economic indicators.
And sadly from 90s onwards, you know, when we had these two families taking turns to rule us and the misrule us,
from then onwards not only just did India overtake Pakistan, but also Bangladesh.
And that's painful for people like us because we know that when we were growing up in the 60s,
there was so much optimism in this country because, you know,
people had confidence in themselves because they felt that we were the country which was, you know,
which was outstripped all the other countries in Asia.
And so now watching this, you know, I guess, you know, from point of view of India,
and I have to say I always had, you know, a lot of love and respect in India because of cricket.
And when I became the prime minister, I always thought the first thing we must do is to have good relationship with India.
Right.
But unfortunately, in India right now, there's the RSS philosophy.
And that's very anti-Pakistan.
And no matter how I tried, you know, we found we hit a brick wall.
Because I think this ideology of RSS and BJP is just not friendly towards Pakistan.
So from that point of view...
You know, it's sad because our main issue is Kashmir.
And if we could resolve the issue about Kashmir through dialogue,
you know, it'll be the greatest thing for the subcontinent.
And especially even for India, because India then has access to Central Asia through Pakistan.
But unfortunately, right now, I do not see this situation.
I just don't see any breakthrough between Pakistan and India.
Suleiman?
So I just want to take it back to what's happening in Pakistan.
The freedom of press is imperative for a functioning society.
And for that, you need journalistic integrity.
They should be allowed to report on whatever they want to report on.
And...
I speak a lot about the problems that we have in the West in terms of mainstream media,
but I was baffled to hear about the level of censorship that was occurring in Pakistan
to the extent that even mentioning your name was censored.
So my question is twofold.
First of all, in terms of what your thought about this censorship that's occurring in Pakistan?
And the second point is about journalists that are being persecuted
just on reporting the true events that are occurring in Pakistan.
Look, Maria, I'm a student of history.
And, you know, just for all the listeners, if you look at the history, a short history of Europe, after the Second World War, half of Europe became, had democracy and freedom.
The other half went to a totalitarian state where they had all the curbs on freedom of expression and freedom, basically.
So the difference between the same Europe
50 years later, the Western Europe, which had freedom, became prosperous and, you know, way ahead.
And Eastern Europe stayed back, even Germany.
The same German people, East and West Germany, there was a huge difference between the prosperity of Western Germans compared to the Eastern Germans.
Because whenever you curb freedom of human beings, you retard their progress.
That's why real democracy is...
Israel freedom, and real freedom means prosperity and humans' progress.
So South and North Korea, the same Koreans, look at the state of North Korea and look at South Korea.
You can't compare the difference of development and prosperity between the two Koreas,
because they have to put curves on freedom.
So Pakistan, unfortunately, as I said, is going through this dark period now.
not only as other the decisions of our Supreme Court of our judiciary,
not only are they openly violated by the government,
nor only does the government not go by the Constitution.
For instance, according to the Constitution, as interpreted by the Supreme Court,
the elections of this biggest province where I'm sitting in Punjab,
was supposed to be on the 14th of May.
The government just refused.
They refused to hold it and not abide by the Constitution.
And similarly, right now, I mean, our people go for bail.
The courts give them bail and then they get picked up by the police and on charges on other
issues.
So complete violation of fundamental rights going on right now.
But the worst is the curb on media because our media had gradually evolved over a period
of time just like a judiciary.
The judiciary asserted its independence.
Normally it used to be a subservient to the executive.
And then our media over a period of time became vibrant.
and one of the most vibrant media is probably anyone in the world.
Now there is complete censorship.
Even my name is not allowed to be mentioned on national television.
And worse, some of our best journalists,
four of our best journalists have left the country
because they were scared of threats to them.
There were cases against them.
One of the best investigative journalist, Aschah Sharif,
had to leave the country and was actually murdered in Kenya.
And then right now, for almost a month, the Pakistani journalist who has the highest viewership on YouTube,
first they hounded him out of the main media.
So he went on YouTube.
He had the highest, he had the highest viewership.
and he's disappeared for over a month.
And the judiciary, they keep asking the police to produce him,
and the police has said, we don't know where he is.
So we've never really had this sort of draconian measures.
Even Musharraf's martial law was liberal compared to what is going on right now.
So I've got to ask you, taking a step back,
and focusing on your party and what happens next.
So most people agree that if an election was to be held today, you would win.
And I know you've called for earlier elections to be held.
But you also face, as we said, 177 allegations, and that includes serious allegations like
treason and terrorism and corruption and murder.
Do you expect to run in the next presidential election?
And what happens to your party if you are to be jailed?
Because you did say that you expect to be jailed, and that's heartbreaking to hear.
Well, look, you know, Mario, the problem I'm facing is, in fact, the country is facing, is that the establishment and the government, I mean, the government is basically reliant on the establishment.
All the 12 parties know that the moment they are elections,
that's why they're running away from elections,
that they'll be wiped out as they were in the by-elections,
despite all the support they got from the government machinery
and from the establishment.
I mean, they lost 30 out of 37 by-elections.
So they know what will happen in the general elections,
hence they're hiding behind the establishment.
Now, for the life of mine, I do not understand
why the establishment has taken this stance.
because you cannot in a, you just cannot go against the will of the people.
If the majority of the population...
is behind, you know, if they want PTI,
then you can't just wish it away by these draconian measures.
Because the public opinion is like a spring.
The more you press it, the more it comes out.
So the more they have put these, the victimization going on right now.
And by the way, again, it is unprecedented.
I mean, never have we had...
The sort of measures we were facing right now, even the families are not safe.
All the ticket holders of my party are in hiding.
Their houses get broken in.
They get, you know, anyone there, the staff gets beaten up.
They get vandalized.
They get robbed.
If they find family members and young boys have been picked up, you know, when the ticket holder has not been there.
So, I mean, it's unprecedented what is happening.
But despite all this, the vote bank keeps growing.
So therefore, the establishment has a problem.
You know, to answer your question, it's not I who have a problem because whenever there are elections, we will win.
unless they go to such an extent that they will make the elections a joke.
But even if they are sort of half-ed fair elections,
the PTI is going to win the elections.
Now, whether I'm in jail or I'm disqualified,
the party will win the elections.
And so therefore, the problem right now is with the establishment.
What does it do?
I mean, are they going to keep persisting with this intense victimization, this...
fascist tactics which are unprecedented in this country, or will they see sense and have free and fair elections which will then bring political stability, which will then bring economic stability.
So right now, because of the turmoil politically, the economy is going down the drain.
And before going to Dynish, I wanted to update everyone on the situation in Russia.
So the chief of Wagner is apparently staging a coup.
A large part of the soldiers of the Russian army now strongly support us.
That was a statement he's made.
We've seen the Moscow exchange dropping very, very rapidly.
We've seen reports from BBC Russia states that the FSB and the SOB are establishing roadblocks
in Moscow and around Moscow, and we're seeing a lot of images of the forces on the streets in various cities.
And we also see there's a criminal probe.
The FSB has mentioned that there's a criminal probe into calls to stage an armed mutiny after the comments from Wagner.
So that's a quick update there, and that will be covered next on the show.
Darnish, go ahead, sir.
Oh, my God.
Well, we're praying for people, the regular people in Russia, I guess.
I was going to say, you know, sir, one of the big points that you have brought up today and that, you know, you talk often about in your speeches is around the establishment.
You know, often the establishment for people that are not paying attention seems like this boogeyman, right?
This group of people that are responsible for all the bad things that happen in the world.
You know, but when you talk about the establishment in Pakistan, you're very specific about the two families, the army, especially certain parts of it, and the ruling class.
But you've also previously mentioned about the global establishment.
And I think for a lot of the people, we have a global audience,
most of it in the USA, but a really global audience.
You know, when you talk about the global establishment,
who are you really referring to?
I mean, we're seeing what's happening in Russia right now.
We know what's been happening around the world.
When you're, you know, we'd love for you to define a little bit more
of what that global establishment is.
Well, look, you know,
I haven't really spoken about the global establishment.
I specifically talked about
you know, this one incident where I had the cipher.
I mean, imagine my own ambassador sending me this message
that this government official is saying,
get rid of your elected prime minister.
Imagine how insulting it was.
I mean, I thought I was really furious,
not so much as that there was a conspiracy going on,
and just the arrogance.
And how insulting it is for a country to find some officials sending a message to the elected prime minister.
So, but I look, if you have public support in your country, then basically it does not matter.
No one can really do much against it.
You know, the problems happen when, you know, when the political engineering can be done.
when, you know, you have two or three players and then one gets picked up because they are supposed to serve your interests more.
So then that establishment can come into play.
But right now in Pakistan, you know, when people say, look, you could decide the U.S. regarding the cipher.
And now you're asking for help.
I'm not asking for any help.
I don't want help from anyone else from outside.
I mean, either the people of Pakistan will elect me or if they don't elect me, that's fine.
Because, you know, they have already given me enough respect.
But all we want from the Western world is that they should stick to the values they preach, which is about promoting democracy.
about freedom of expression, about rule of law,
about human rights, talking against custodial torture.
All that is happening right now in my country.
They should just speak about the values they preach.
It should not just be when you want to criticize Russia or China
that you bring out these things of democracy and human rights.
It should be wherever, and especially in a country of 250 million people,
When you see that the democracy is being dismantled,
they should speak out because this could have consequences later on.
Sir...
As we speak, we are getting reports from the audience.
And by the way, for the audience, the bubble, the purple bubble at the bottom right corner allows you to comment and chat to other audience members.
Our team is going through all the comments to find questions for Mr. Khan.
In the meantime, we're getting reports, and we've been getting them for a while, and I think it's worth mentioning.
Due to this space, internet services have been slowed down in various areas in Lahore by the government.
So we had this report by multiple sources.
Obviously, I'm not in Pakistan to be able to verify, but it wouldn't be surprising.
And we did talk internally about attempts to crash this space.
We did talk to Twitter's team to make sure that they do help us in the background, that nothing goes wrong.
Otherwise, I will go to Sulaiman for the next question.
I mean, first of all, I think even your...
I'll ask a question in a second, but I'll just ask Imran Khan.
What's your thoughts on what Mario said in terms of this censorship?
Because I know that the internet has been removed during various times
in order to make sure that you can't access the public.
Look, you know, this is what the government is trying to do
and this fascist government, because really, I repeat,
under General Musharraf's martial law, I was in the opposition.
I actually went to jail for seven or eight days.
But I never experienced these sort of fascist draconian measures, what is happening right now.
This is unprecedented.
And the problem is that they don't realize that the world has changed because of social media.
So I am completely out of the mainstream media, but because of social media, I can still get my messages through.
And so all these tactics are...
don't work anymore.
You know, they used to work at one time, you know, when during General Ziaz martial law,
General Yub's martial law, there was complete media censorship.
And you actually could get away with it because we had no other source of information.
So we would believe whatever the, I'm talking about when I was growing up, we would believe whatever,
the government controlled censored papers and television would say.
But now everything has changed.
The rate at which information goes viral is so rapid,
it just cannot be controlled.
So, yeah.
So another question I have is you mentioned earlier
about two families who have essentially been ruling Pakistan
and taking turns in terms of
owning the leadership of the country. And obviously you were you were an outlier where you rule the country
which wasn't those two families and wasn't the military. If you're not given this opportunity to fight
the election, do you think that this is going to be the end of any form of democracy in the future
and we'll continue to have the status quo? Look, we're on a genuine crossroads.
I mean, we now face at one point a complete destruction of our democracy where we are headed.
Because remember when the constitution is just violated by the government, you know, I mean, for instance,
the constitution is clear that when you dissolve a government and we dissolve two of,
out of the four provincial governments, my party was in power in two of them, which is 70% of Pakistan.
So when we dissolved our governments, the Constitution is clear that elections have to be held in 90 days.
Well, the government refused. The federal government refused to hold elections.
Now, this is unprecedented. It does not happen in a democracy.
Secondly, right now, all fundamental rights are being violated.
and the police openly florts them.
I mean, the judges, for instance,
asked the police to bring in the people who they have put in jails.
You know, first, the police doesn't respond,
and then when they bring them,
the judges give them bail,
they're immediately taken some other charges,
I'll levied on them.
And then this media, total ban on media, I mean,
I can't, my name cannot be mentioned on the media.
I mean, this also has never happened before.
So we are heading towards a blind alley now.
If we keep going this way, Pakistan has no future.
Because, you know, as we know, with this political instability, which is, which is,
the more you run away from elections, we are in a space where no one knows where Pakistan is headed,
and therefore the economy is not going to go. We have no way of picking up the economy if there's no political stability.
So that's one way. And the other is free and fair elections, allow the people to decide who they want to govern this country.
And then once a government comes in with a proper majority and the backing of the public,
then conduct sweeping reforms, you know, reform and governance,
establishing rule of law, bringing the powerful under the law.
And then the problem we face the economy, the two twin deficits,
the fiscal deficit and the current account deficit.
Unless we make sweeping reforms,
cutting our expenditure, raising our revenues, which needs governance reforms.
Unless we do that, we are not going to be able to get out of the mess we are in right now.
And so that needs political stability, which can only come from free and fair elections.
So talking about stability, what does your relationship with the new army chief look like?
If PTI were to win the next election and you become prime minister once again, what...
Would that relationship look like?
Because we would expect that relationship to be in good working order
for there to no longer be any clashes.
Well, at the moment, I'm afraid there is done.
Although I have constantly asked for dialogue with the army chief
because he holds the power.
I mean, the coalition of parties are basically puppets now.
So I have asked for dialogue, but unfortunately,
have no response from his side.
And so whatever...
what do I say, animosity or whatever reservations he's got about me is from his side.
So I understand that, you know, you have to work with the establishment,
although there has to be a new equilibrium because I again repeat that you cannot have a system
where the responsibility lies with the elected prime minister,
but he does not have the authority to implement his program.
So that has to happen.
At the same time, the establishment has a role.
But that has to be defined again because the way things are right now, the hybrid system,
which we've had so far, has clearly not worked because, you know, as I said, in the last 30 years,
first India overtook us and then Bangladesh overtook us.
And bearing in mind till 80s, we were ahead of all the countries, as far as economic indicators go,
we were ahead of all the countries right up to the 80s.
Danish.
So talking about the economy for a second, you know, when we look at Pakistan right now,
you were mentioning the deficits.
You were mentioning, you know, some of the challenges, economic challenges of the common people of Pakistan.
But the military in Pakistan still continues to demand the lion's share of the national budget.
What are your thoughts about the amount when, if you are given the opportunity to run again,
what would you do to the budget for the military?
Look, what needs to be done?
Well, problem is Pakistan lives in a rough neighborhood and we need to have a strong defense.
But what needs to happen is that we have to raise a, you know, create wealth in this country.
So, you know, when we were in my last two years on an average...
we were growing at 6%.
Now, 6% growth has been very rare in Pakistan.
It's been in Yubhan's time for a while,
but then we were part of the Sito-Centor, the pact with the US,
and there were US dollars coming in.
So we grew at something close to 6%.
And then again in the 80s, we again grew at 6% close to that.
But that's when we were part of the Afghan jihad, and then there were US dollars coming in.
Then for a couple of years, Musharraf's time we were growing.
But then again, we were part of the war on terror and dollars coming in.
But this was the first time without any dollars coming in, we had this growth rate.
So you have to create wealth in Pakistan.
The problem is that unless we create wealth, neither can we pay our debts.
Nor can we afford now to pay it not just our military, but even for our health and education or human development.
So therefore, that can only happen if you fix the governance system, attract investment in the country.
Problem is when you do not have rule of law, you cannot attract investment.
The investment which Pakistan can attract immediately is from overseas Pakistanis.
Now, just to give because you're, you know, the audience is in the US.
So just the 16,000 Pakistani American doctors in North America, their net worth is $200 billion.
So...
bear in mind that they are 10 million overseas Pakistanis.
So if we could just fix our governance system,
we could attract their investment.
The reason why they do not invest in Pakistan is
that out of 140 countries in the rule of law index,
Pakistan was 129th.
And this is before the crackdown.
Now we would have slipped even further down.
So when you do not have rule of law,
you cannot attract investment because the investor wants to have
contract enforcement through a proper functioning judiciary where he feels that his investment is safe will be protected.
That's why people invest from Pakistan, people are investing in Dubai because they feel the investment is safer there.
Hence, the number one thing which a government has to do is fix that the rule of law, the governance system,
and then we can have access to investment from overseas Pakistanis.
When China and India opened up, the first investments came from overseas Chinese and overseas Indians.
And unfortunately, because of our very poor...
governance system because of lack of rule of law, we just cannot attract investment and that
investment will bring in, will create wealth and then you can afford to pay for, you know,
your defense and your human development. Mr. Khan, I want to go back to what you're facing right now.
You said you have no lines of communication with the army chief. What can you do, if anything?
to avoid what you're facing, to avoid possibly going to jail.
And I'm framing that question in a way,
because I'm sure the army chief or his team is listening to this,
I'm framing it in a way to say this is an open call to communication,
to dialogue, to avoid the path the country is going down.
I don't know what impact it will have, if any.
I know there's censorship in Pakistan.
Luckily, we're not on Pakistani media.
Mr. Kahn, would love your response to this.
Well, Mario, you know, I have already made this appeal several times,
but I get the impression that when I make the appeal,
the establishment, or maybe the army chief,
maybe the thing that I'm getting scared and frightened
because of all my party in jail or underground
or some of the party leaders leaving the party,
So maybe they feel I'm now under pressure and that's why I'm trying to open dialogue.
But I've tried it from day one.
Ever since the new army chief came, I sort of offered that, look, we should sit down at least know what is your game plan?
What is the roadmap? Because if the establishment feels that I, Imran Khan is sort of somehow bad for this country, but explain to me then what is your idea of what should be best for the country.
And unfortunately, so far, there has been no response.
So maybe Mario from this message today, maybe there would be a response.
But somehow I doubt it.
Because I think they're pretty fixed that whatever happens, my party cannot win the election.
Well, my message to Assim Munir, who's the new army chief, is clear and that's the same message from the Western world.
There's going to be a lot of people listening to this.
The West is watching.
And...
And we urge dialogue.
We urge dialogue the path that Pakistan is heading down,
whether you agree with an opponent or don't agree,
going to this extreme to censor someone and to end a political party
is not how any country should function.
And hopefully we'll see dialogue after this.
And Mr. Khan...
The question for you, and I know we're wrapping up shortly, I know you have to go and I know that you probably want to check what's going on in Russia as well, considering this started like 10 minutes before our interview.
But I want to ask about your family, sir.
You did state in one interview.
You cannot even see your son, considering how bad the situation is.
How is your family doing?
Have you seen anyone from your family recently?
And my question again is, are you worried about the next few days, sir?
Well, my wife has cases against her.
They've taken out warrants against her.
My sisters, three of my sisters, they've gone after them.
Okay.
So some of them, my nephew has gone abroad because, you know, they were looking for him.
So anyway, so the family, my sisters have been all somehow the other been approached by these intelligence agencies.
One of my sisters, one of my younger...
Sister has had these corruption cases against her.
So, you know, all this is happening.
But this is not just happening to me.
It's happening to all my party members, their relatives.
There have been cases on all of them, cases, whether it's corruption, whether it is tax department, whether it is FIA, all the agencies, the main concern right now.
I mean, you'll really be shocked.
All the agencies of the government, the institutions of the government, their one aim is to somehow destroy and crush PTI at the party.
And of course, you know, all these 170 odd cases against me.
So, so.
Not just me, I mean, you know, you asked me a question, do I feel worried about myself?
Actually, more about my people who are suffering, people in jail, 10,000 people in this heat stuffed into jails.
Women, especially. I mean, it's never happened.
That for peaceful protests, women have been thrown into jails.
And then, you know, you asked me about my sons.
You know, there's no question of me asking them to come over right now.
Because it is a very, for families, this is a very scary time if they happen to be affiliated to me or my party.
So we did have plans for congressmen and senators to come immediately after this.
But due to the escalation in Russia, we're going to just field a couple of questions.
And then we will allow the ex-prime minister to basically finish the interview.
And I just want to urge, before you go to the question, I just want to urge again everyone listening, everyone in Pakistan, everyone around the world.
obviously peacefully, but pressure, especially people outside of Pakistan, because Pakistan is doing enough.
Attention and pressure should be placed on Pakistan to function as a democracy.
The censorship and the political witch hat, and this is what a witch hat looks like.
This is what a witch hunt looks like.
Shouldn't exist in any democracy, and we should not accept it even if it's not in our own country.
But go ahead, Suleiman.
Yeah, I just want to go to Sarah for the first question.
She's worked in US politics for a number of years as a businesswoman,
and she engages in politics and current events.
So Sarah, please go ahead with your question.
Thank you so much, Salaman.
Prime Minister Khan, you stated earlier that you expected to be in jail within the next 10 days.
Do you feel that you would be released soon after or that you would remain in jail until trial?
Look, I'm not pushed about the cases because, you know, whenever they go to court, the cases will, they're all bogus, frivolous cases.
The thing is, I think, well, let me tell you what they are thinking.
I mean...
What will happen, God alone knows.
But they're thinking that, look, if they put me in jail till the elections,
then at least my party will be wiped out.
And so once the elections are over, then they could let me out.
I think that's the thinking right now.
Suleiman.
Okay, let me go to Kalee.
Kalee's being engaged in Pakistani politics for a number of years.
So, Kalee, go ahead.
Thank you so much, Suleiman. You have many supporters in listeners, Imran Khan, who would be delighted to see me on the panel with you. My question is, how do you see the future of Pakistan over the next two decades? Because geopolitically, there are a lot of changes in terms of the Briggs Alliance and other factors. So if you were Prime Minister, how do you see that changing?
Thank you.
Look, you know, in my three and a half years, I remember two of them were taken by COVID-19 and the impact it had all over the world.
And basically, a trade really stopped in those, especially one year, everything stopped.
So in my brief stint of three and a half years, I feel that Pakistan has tremendous potential.
And I repeat in the 60s when we were growing up, this was...
the happening country. I mean, there would be students from Middle East,
from everywhere coming to study in Pakistan universities.
In my school in Acheson, we had Malaysian princes and
people from all over the world coming to study there. So this was,
you know, a country with great expectations. And I feel that if we can fix our governance,
and I repeat the word, justice, you know, the difference between countries is
countries have justice rule of law, a level playing field, the weak protected from the strong
by the justice system. The famous thing of Churchill, when Hitler's forces were on the borders
of had conquered France and were on the verge of invading or thinking that they would invade
Britain and the, you know,
bombing raids were taking a place over London.
So people approached Winston Churchill and asked him, will we survive?
And he said, look, something strange.
He replied, and asked the question, are the courts in Britain giving justice?
And the people said, yes.
He said, then we'll survive.
Because justice is the big thing.
which differentiates countries throughout history.
If you look at the Roman Empire, there were Roman laws.
If you look at the rise of the Muslim when they led the world,
it was based in the state of Medina where it was based on rule of law.
So gave people level playing field, liberated the people from the powerful.
And that's always the society's forger.
And then I give the example of East Europe when it got divided between the east and west.
And the countries that had democracies just took off because free people take off.
And so the problem we face right now is, I repeat, we have to have rule of law.
If we have rule of law, this country will take off.
Why do our people have to go to seek employment all over the world?
Because we just cannot give them the administrative system, the governance system, which would create jobs in this country.
And the bottom line is we have been ruled by a tiny elite which has hogged the resources of this country.
Elite capture.
They have captured the resources and they do not allow, they just do not give freedom to this country to achieve its potential.
So my answer is if we can fix the system, this country can take off.
It has all the resources.
It has talented people.
But right now we are stuck.
We have, as I said, we are on a crossroads.
Either we go the democratic way or we are going back to the old dark days of fascism, of dictatorship.
And then there is no hope.
Boucher, I want to give you the mic for a quick question.
And then I've got final two important questions for you, Mr. Kahn.
Boucher, a question for you.
Yeah, so let me just go to Boucher, and she is a political commentator in the United Kingdom
and is a regular on GB News.
Please go ahead, Boucher.
Thank you guys. I just want to begin by saying,
Asalam al-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-com. It's an absolute honour and privilege to be in a space with you.
So I want to start by saying that. And I just wanted to echo the fact that you have millions of millions of supporters internationally in the UK.
Although we live in the UK, we are those that are...
us come from Pakistan. Our hearts are also always with Pakistan and all we've ever wanted is
that country to prosper. And we imagined one day that our children would go back and be exponentially
proud of what Pakistan has become. So I commend you on every single effort, Sam Rang Khan,
that you have been doing for the 27 years in politics. So that's what I'm going to start with.
But my question basically is about Islamophobia and the connections and the links of terrorism and extremism.
That is always an agenda that British Pakistani Muslims face in the UK.
And I just wondered, in your ministerial...
position, did you ever come across that with other global leaders where you felt like they were
also trying to vilify Pakistan to say that perhaps terrorism was born out of that country
because British Pakistani Muslims face that on a daily basis simply for bringing from Pakistan.
You know, let me just say that I saw first time Islamophobia start, you know, when
the Iranian revolution took place in 79.
So there was a fair in the Western countries that all the Muslim world would be swept
by what they call fundamentalists ruling the countries and not really understanding the dynamics
of why that Iranian revolution took place.
And then the other milestone was when Salman Rushdie wrote that book, Satanic Verses.
And in the Western countries, they could not understand the Muslim reaction.
They thought it was, you know, Muslims were against freedom of expression.
But they couldn't understand the love, respect, and reverence Muslims have for our Holy Prophet, Muhammad, Peace be upon him.
So we in the Muslim, we the heads of Muslim countries, never tried to explain to them.
because their attitude to religion is completely different to how we look at religion.
I mean, when I went to England first time, they were satires on Jesus Christ.
So this is unthinkable about us, you know, even thinking of making a satire on Jesus Christ.
So I realized that their view religion completely differently, and we had not explained to them
how our Prophet, Muhammad, Peace be upon him, lives in our hearts.
And we couldn't explain to them why it causes us so much hurt and pain.
And that I blame the Muslim leadership.
I mean, the OIC, when I addressed the OIC as a prime minister, I tried to tell them.
Look, it was our duty to tell the Western countries.
And really, when I became, when I spoke in the United Nations,
we actually then managed to get through that 15th of March would become anti-Islamophobic day.
And sort of countries to understand that, you know, by insulting the holy prophet,
you can't hide behind freedom of expression by causing hurt to so many people.
And the other problem we had after 9-11 was that terrorism got equated with Islam.
Now, terrorism knows no religion.
You know, terrorism has nothing to do with any religion.
You know, if there was suicide, Tamil suicide bombers in Sri Lanka,
they had nothing to do with Hinduism.
Or Japanese kamikaze pilots, again, had nothing to do with Shintoism.
So somehow...
it became Islamic terrorism and then it became radical Islam,
you know, as if there were different types of Islam.
Actually, there's only one Islam, Islam of a prophet.
Muhammad peace be upon him, there's no other Islam.
But in Muslim societies, they're radicals, they're liberals,
and they're moderates like every other human society.
But again, we failed to make them understand.
So as a result, whenever there was a Muslim involved in a terrorist attack,
the whole 1.5 billion Muslims were somehow held responsible.
And then again, I think it was a failure.
of the Muslim world of our leadership to have explained to them.
So this Islamophobia started with ignorance
on the Western countries not understanding what Islam was
and our inability to make them understand it.
Mr. Kahn, I want to go to, I've got two final questions for you, sir, because I want to be very cognizant of your time.
And for me, these are the two most important questions.
We're genuinely seeing, and I can now call it, a coup in Russia ongoing right now.
And I know you did meet Mr. Putin, including the day after the Ukraine war.
And I'm going to read out a last message from the chief of Wagner said, we're starting.
Okay.
And before that, he said we urge Wagner group fighters not to carry out criminal and traitorous orders of progulsion.
That was by the FSB, the Russian FSB saying that.
So my question to you, sir, having met Putin and knowing what you know about the war in Ukraine and based on your knowledge of Russian politics.
Your thoughts on what's going on right now in Russia caught us all by surprise and the facts are the FSB will be taking action against the Chief of Wagner for the attempted coup and the Chief of Wagner is saying that military officials or some people within the military are on his side as well and the coup is in progress and we see military equipment across the streets in Russia and in various cities.
there was reports of shooting in moscow but we haven't been able to confirm those so i will call
them as rumors for now so i would love to get your thoughts on this developing story and on russian
politics well you know mario uh my trip to russia was being planned a couple of months before
by a foreign office and the idea was that pakistan needed to um
buy cheap oil because remember this was a commodity super cycle aftermath of coronavirus.
And the prices all over the world went through the roof, price of oil and price of energy.
So my trip was planned that we wanted to get some cheap oil from Russia.
And secondly, we need to buy 2 million tons of wheat.
So, so, and then the military wanted some hardware from them.
So that's why the trip was planned.
Now, I arrived in Russia at night, and the next morning is by meeting with President Putin.
And just before the meeting, we hear that the Russians had moved into Ukraine.
So, you know, it was bad timing, but really, had we known, clearly no one would have taken a visit, gone to Russia, knowing that this is happening.
So it just happened to be bad timing.
Now, what is my idea of what is happening?
Frankly, I have no idea what is going on because...
You know, when I had the meeting with it was purely about our bilateral relationship.
You know, as I said, we wanted also there we wanted pipeline, gas pipeline built by the Russian firm.
So it was purely bilateral, but I did ask him how, what did he feel, you know, when I heard that he had moved into,
the Russia had moved into Ukraine, how long would it take?
Because I'm basically very anti-war.
I haven't.
I have always, as again a student of history, wars are always miscalculations.
You always have men starting war and then think once they start the war, they don't know when it will finish.
And this is always based on miscalculation, all great things.
disasters and military have been miscalculations.
So I asked President Putin, I said, how long would he think this would take?
So he, you know, he was very confident maybe four weeks, but then he said four weeks, but then he did say,
but you never really know in the war.
So what is going to happen now, I have no idea. But, you know, if I was in his place, I would never have started a conflict.
because, you know, in Pakistan, we have seen, you know, this war on terror.
I remember General Musharraf telling us, you know, when he was taking on war on terror,
I asked him, how long do you think we would be involved in this?
And he said, a matter of months.
And for 15 years, we were involved in this war when 80,000 Pakistanis died.
And same, it's, so I'm not a big believer in solving issues through military conflict.
And so my final question for you, you've been incredibly courteous with your time,
especially at such a sensitive time, and you're the victim of extreme censorship.
We know Elon is working hard to fight censorship, and Twitter in Twitter spaces is one way of doing this.
We've covered a lot of topics that would not generally be covered by mainstream media in the West,
let alone by media in countries like Pakistan.
So my question to choose, would love your thoughts on
what Twitter is doing to fight censorship, what other people in the West and around the world are doing to fight censorship.
And lastly and most importantly, your thoughts on this journey, this experience on this interview on Twitter spaces and the discussion so far, Mr. Khan.
Well, look, Mario, the Twitter is for me right now, I mean, it was my main way of communicating.
Because there's as I as you know I'm completely banned on all mainstream media.
So were it not for Twitter, I would not be able to get my messages through.
And also I do record my videos and they they go on YouTube.
So you know for someone like me, I mean, we are grateful.
for this ability to get our message through.
Because in and frankly, the worst thing that happened to a country is when you stop,
when you put breaks on freedom of expression.
Because you know, once you stop criticism in a society,
the society has to go down.
You know, let me say as a cricketer, I mean, I was, I was, I wasn't the most talented.
But I was more successful than others because I was my most, my greatest critic.
And I would, you know, I would always read reviews of people who I valued, whose criticism I valued.
Because that's how you improve yourself.
So when a society deprives itself of criticism, it is only one way it is going to go downhill.
And again, I repeat the example of, you know, countries with democracies.
The better the democracy, the more the country prospered.
The more freedom you give to a country, the more it goes up.
and the more you clam down on expression and and fundamental rights in a country you know you you
you destroy its future because you destroy its freedom and only free people prosper so though
throughout human if you look at the history of mankind it has been a constant struggle for humans
to to to be free of controls you know
If you look at the British history, it was Magna Carta which started putting curves on the power of the executive.
And then sort of gradually the democracy evolved.
We in Islamic history, we started off at very democratic societies where we had the...
the executive was firmly under the rule of law.
And that's how we started.
We ended up moved towards monarchy and our freedoms disappeared.
Whereas in the Western countries, you had a French revolution,
you had the American constitution,
you had the British parliament and moving towards democracy.
So we went the other way.
Now, Pakistan stands at the crossroads.
We really have to protect our democracy, which is our freedom.
And if we, if the country, if we as a people in Pakistan, if we can rally and save our democracy, we will save our future.
So this is really where we stand right now.
And I'm very pleased that, you know, Mario, I got this space, Twitter space, and I'm glad that you're fighting against censorship.
Look, I believe that there has to be something about fake news.
Fake news has to be counted because, you know, this is an industry now fake news,
but freedom of expression has to be preserved.
Well said.
Mr. Kahn, a real pleasure to have you for everyone listening.
Before I wrap the space, we will be ending this space so all the media can listen to the recording.
They're waiting for the recording and that will only be possible when the space ends.
And in four to five minutes, we will start in use space to cover live.
The coup that's happening in Russia, the team is ready.
Otherwise, most importantly, former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan.
Such a pleasure to join you and our thoughts are with you over the next few days.
Thank you, sir.
My pleasure, Mario. Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Everyone else, we'll see you in a few minutes.
Suleiman Danish, I will end the space now.
And then we will start another space in about four to five minutes.
Just allow me to restart the app to make sure no glitches.
And we'll be covering live the developments that are happening in Russia.
There is a coup in Russia.
I do have a tweet, a thread on my profile that you could read that the team has been updating while we conduct this interview.
and all the confirmed news is there, there's some messages by the FSB, messages by Wagner,
all screenshot it there, there's video screenshots.
Videos included there as well.
It is an evolving situation.
And what started initially as like, wow, this is concerning is now
extremely concerning.
So we will start a space in about four to five minutes on that.
Otherwise, thank you everyone else for doing this.
And Suleiman, thanks for helping me co-host and Danish.
Thanks for helping me co-hosts as well,
and everyone else that organize this.
Bye, everyone.
