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Making crypto cypherpunk again
Recorded: Jan. 4, 2024 Duration: 0:57:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
An interesting year ahead of us, a productive one, full of exciting information, I suppose.
How about you?
How are you?
I'm good.
You know, the start of every year, I'm very optimistic.
You know, I mean, it technically is just another day, but it's always nice to kind of get a refresh with a new year.
There's an assumed optimism based on new innovations that will take place, friendlier regulation, though that's not always the case.
And if anything, we actually got started here in the U.S. with a little more stricter regulation or, you know, we'll see.
Some people would argue that it's maybe better.
Some people would argue it's maybe in the wrong direction.
We'll see.
We can talk a little bit about it.
But overall, for me, you know, I think one of the last things that I read at the end of the new year was Vitalik's post, which I shared with you just moments ago.
Apologies if I had not shared that in our shared channel before, but, you know, I think it's not that complicated to read.
I'll go ahead and go through a few bits and pieces there and we can make a conversation out of it as usual.
Yeah, I've just read the whole article, bro, and I was just trying to just look at the areas which we can talk about.
But before we start on that conversation, what have you been up to the last three weeks?
Yeah, well, I've been, I guess, MIA for a little bit, but I did take a much needed unplug.
I did tweet a little bit, but nothing terribly regular or thought provoking.
I've just been spending a lot of time with family, traveling for the holidays, really just going to visit more family, which is usually the only time of the year that I get to get to do that.
Because any traveling that I do throughout the rest of the year, it usually is work related.
And I don't really get to see my family.
So, yeah, that's kind of what I've been doing.
How about you?
All good.
I think I was in Morocco the last time we spoke and then I came back and just recovered and just had a quiet holiday, really.
And I'm just trying to get some inspiration.
I think the last quarter of the year has just been like, you know, trying to figure out my next move with everything which is happening.
So, I was just trying to, like, get some inspiration.
And I realized that, like, you know, the current routine and the stuff which I'm doing, that's probably going to, like, you know, cause me, it's causing me, like, issues in terms of being able to brainstorm on other new ideas.
So, as a result, I'm just, like, I'm going for a whole month to a retreat somewhere in Asia.
I think it's somewhere near Nepal.
And I've got, like, I've got, like, four websites which I need to develop and I've been, like, doing a lot of research on website development.
And, like, you know, using AI as tools and search engine optimization and metrics and all of that stuff which goes, which incorporates towards, like, creating a website which kind of, like, bridges the gap between Web 2 and Web 3.
And just focuses on, like, you know, on productivity which we can all use.
Like, for example, there's this concept which I'm working on recently.
And I'll probably, like, give you more updates as I go further deep into it is, like, you know, creating a space for people, talents across the globe to be able to, you know, serve themselves, to register themselves.
And then for people who need that talent, something like Fiverr is already doing, but, like, slightly on a bit more deeper.
And just because Fiverr is doing it, that doesn't mean, like, you know, I cannot do the same thing.
But, like, you know, having a slightly different criteria, focusing more on quality and relationship and community, you know, rather than just, like, creating a business which serves, like, so...
So I suppose it kind of, like, intertwines with what we're talking about.
But, you see, before, a couple of years ago or three, four years ago, for someone, a solo entrepreneur, you know, it would have been a solopreneur.
It would have been hard because, like, you know, there's only so much you can do.
There's only so many websites, coding.
There's, like, so many different aspects, you know, for one to deploy something.
But because of AI, you can utilize and harness that power and, like, you know, come up with quick and fast results.
But now the shift has changed towards time, you know.
It's because, like, you need time to sit down and develop ideas, do research, even if you've got, like, a whole, like, set of robots and stuff.
Because as we move forward into, like, you know, further, I think time is going to become a huge, huge thing in terms of resources.
And that's why I'm just, like, going because I've been, like, trying to develop this website for the last two years.
And I haven't had the courage or the skill set or just being able to, like, just sit down and be like, okay, I'm going to deal with it.
Because I was slightly scared, you know.
So I'm pretty charged up now, like, at the beginning of this year.
I've got, like, all these two, three projects to work on.
So it'll be interesting.
Yeah, man, I'm excited for you.
You know, I definitely think the whole entrepreneurial thing is a very nice journey.
Obviously, not for everyone.
But for those who are inspired, brave, you know, have the resilience, not just to kind of do the research,
but also to sustain the necessary energy to build something of value.
I think it's a really, really wonderful way of spending your time.
And in terms of what you're planning on building, it sounds like there's already an established competitor in the market.
But that doesn't mean that it cannot be disrupted.
That's the whole premise of startups is the ability to disrupt and introduce something novel that a competitor is unable to do for some reason and that the market requires.
So the market is the ultimate arbiter of value.
And if the market finds that whatever it is you're building has sufficient value in what you're building, then they will go out and support you and not that competitor.
And usually what happens is either you get acquired or you end up, you know, by that bigger competitor or you end up being able to grow big enough where you take over the, you know, kind of that role of industry standard.
So, yeah, very excited to hear that.
Congratulations.
You know, I read something recently where someone said, if you're trying to build something, don't educate people on how to do it, just build the right tools where people can use it easily.
And then they will gravitate towards, you know, that new tool, that new, that new space, that new market, whatever.
I think AI is the best example of that.
AI is not new or novel.
It's been around for, gosh, 20 plus years, maybe 30 or more in different kind of different ways.
And it wasn't until ChatGPT really, and even ChatGPT had been around for a while, but it wasn't a, or sorry, GPT has been around for a while, but it wasn't until ChatGPT was introduced that suddenly people saw the value of AI as a tool that we can use to improve our writing.
To improve the way that we search for things on the internet, the way that we create.
So, yeah, man, I think if you can build a platform or a tool that people can use to interact with a given space in the market, and they find value in that, I think it's going to do well.
But let's definitely, sorry, did you want to say something there, Flairs?
Yeah, I was just going to say that, like, you know, there's Web2 platforms, and then there's Web3 platforms, and then because we are, like, because we are in the middle of, or we're in the, like, you know, in the midst of all of it, and we understand it, and we're users.
Like, you know, we can, we as people of Web3 can come up with solutions to, like, at least deal with one problem or some problems, you know, and yeah.
Actually, that connects to what we're going to talk about right now, right?
Because Web3, which is, I think, a much broader term than crypto, introduces a lot of different ways of interacting with very similar environments,
many of which are privacy-enabled, where previously those systems did not exist.
A good example of this would be, like, in the social, decentralized social space, or even not necessarily decentralized, but more privacy social space.
We can see how there are new startups that come in, like Signal, right, who are able to introduce a new product into a very saturated market, which is P2P communications,
but do so in a way that's privacy-preserving, right, where everything is encrypted, your messages are private, and are, you know, not visible to anyone, but the people to which they were intended.
So, yeah, 100%.
You know, coming from the Web3 space, looking at the Web2 space, you can say, well, there's a lot of very traditional products in play.
Are there ways to introduce some of the technology that is prevalent here in the Web3 space to make that, those products better?
So, 100%.
I agree with you.
That's exactly, like, you know, the type of niches I'm trying to, like, dig into.
Because I remember, like, last year, like, I was, you know, people were coming up to me in discords asking for, like, you know, is there any jobs anywhere?
Is this something happening?
And these are, like, people from randomly distributed different.
And then I realized, like, you know, there was so many people who, like, there was this company I was working for,
and they started hiring, and there were so many people who were, like, you know, applying for jobs.
And there was no way of, like, creating a saturation where you know someone is good or not.
And this is, like, a decentralized space.
How do you, like, quickly sift through CVs?
You know, how do you incorporate certain credentials in a quick manner, in a decentralized manner?
And these are, like, pretty interesting, like, metrics to deal with.
And if we can, like, come up with solutions which can, like, you know, approach these problems,
then, like, you know, it'll make life easier for a lot of, like, Web3 users.
And also the fact that Web2 is, like, I look at it, and I think that, you know, that is very compliance-native setup.
It's a very compliance-native setup.
KYC, AMLs, bankings, all of that is, like, very compliance-friendly.
It's already gone through stringent, like, you know, processes.
Whereas Web3 is, like, no compliance whatsoever.
You can start a smart contract and, you know, start running it in a completely anonymous way.
But, and we've discussed it for a while now, years and on end, like, you know, that moving forward,
we need to come up with an alliance where we utilize the technology,
but not, like, be completely nefarious towards different setups.
Because, you know, it's all connected and it's all part of a chain.
And I suppose the article which you have shared with me today is kind of like addressing these type of issues
in a more holistic manner as well.
Like, you know, technological advancements of roll-ups and zero-knowledge proofs
and other innovative innovations for security and efficiency are only good if a community-driven development
is also, you know, in correspondence to that technological advancement.
Otherwise, we develop, like, a void which can be exploited.
That's just one point which I kind of, like, realized from, from looking at that article.
But there's many other interesting concepts which, which intertwine between, like, you know,
what we are trying to do, what I am trying to do as an individual,
what I'm trying to do in a society, what we are trying to do as, like, you know, a group
and then a collective Web3 effort and then obviously, like, looking at it from a Bitcoin, Ethereum
and a complete crypto ecosystem chamber.
Yeah.
And I think let's, let's go ahead and introduce kind of some of these things.
So I went ahead and pinned some of the links that we're going to be talking about here.
The first one that I pinned was the one that Polaris just mentioned, which was the Vitalik blog
that was published late last year.
So December 28th, so just about a week ago, basically titled Make Ethereum Cypherpunk Again.
But I think before we dive into that, I think it's necessary that we talk about cypherpunks
and really where this concept was born.
And so I also pinned something that I tweeted out about a week ago after I saw this making
its rounds, which was the original Cypherpunk Manifesto, which was what actually the first
piece of information that I got before starting to work in the crypto space.
This was something that the founder of the business that I first joined almost seven years
ago shared with everybody coming on board.
So I'm very grateful to him for having shared this with us.
This was something that I was not aware of, but has been around for quite some time.
And, you know, it's linked up there in the space.
If you want to go, that's the one that was tweeted by me.
You can click on the link.
It was written by Eric Hughes.
And I'm just going to briefly just like run through mostly the bottom here because the
bottom of it really is where it talks more precisely and concisely about what it is that
cypherpunks stand for.
And really, cypherpunks stand for privacy with cryptography.
That's really kind of the call to action, if you will.
And the tools that they do this with, at least at the time of writing, was anonymous mail
forwarding systems with digital signatures and with electronic money.
So you can start hearing some similarities to systems that were being developed at the
time.
And when I say that, I mean Bitcoin, right?
When we think about electronic money, digital money that is private, well, I shouldn't say
it's private, but it's cryptographic.
So it's provable and it's on chain.
I think it's, this definitely is representative of what that is.
If you think about like private money, of course, you can think about like things like Monero,
for instance.
Um, but you can also think of like ZK cash, right?
Where there are ways of, uh, anonymizing, um, you know, this money where it then reinforces
these privacy values.
So, uh, these are things that, um, were advocated for early by the cypherpunks.
And so when I saw Vitalik, right, his posts late last year, and I saw Ethereum and cypherpunk
to me, that was a call to this much older, uh, manifesto.
And it's really interesting to see Vitalik talk about his early days in the Bitcoin ecosystem
and then even make a call to Tron, which I thought that was a little funny, uh, because
there's always this like maximalism, uh, idealism that positions people on Ethereum against those
that are on Tron and vice versa.
But here's kind of like one of the original, uh, developers on, on Ethereum talking nicely
about Justin's son.
So anyways, you can ignore that if you wish, but really you start, you, if you read it,
you can see that he's talking about some of these privacy systems and things that exist
that allow for the distribution of information in a decentralized manner.
I don't think he goes necessarily too deep into the privacy aspect of things.
Uh, but we can see what he means.
If you look at the section that says, what are some of these values, right?
Um, and I'm just going to go over them here quickly, and then we can talk a little bit
about it, Polaris.
By the way, if anybody's in the audience, I see some familiar faces want to come up and
talk about this.
You're more than welcome.
Just raise your hand.
I'd be happy to bring you up.
This is an open discussion.
Um, and really the topic is making crypto cypherpunk again.
Uh, if you're coming in late and we're leveraging some existing documentation or, or blogs that
have talked about cypherpunk, um, you know, kind of concepts from the cypherpunk manifesto
and Vitalik's blog post.
But some of these values that, uh, Vitalik talks about is open global participation.
Um, it talks about decentralization.
It talks about censorship resistance.
It talks about auditability, credible neutrality, building tools, not empires, and cooperative
mindset.
Um, very different, of course, from that of the original cypherpunk manifesto, which talks
very, leans very heavily into privacy, though.
I will say that Vitalik towards the bottom of that article does talk about ZK proofs a
little bit more from the standpoint of anonymity, from KYC, um, using zero knowledge proofs as
a way of, uh, sharing your identity.
So let's start there.
What are your thoughts in terms of maybe the different positioning?
Does it matter in terms of how cypherpunk is being used here in this, in this instance,
compared to the manifesto?
And let's start with Kenji, since, um, you raised your hand and wanted to come up.
GM, how are you doing today?
Hey, GM, how are you, man?
Doing good?
Doing good?
Uh, so I, I didn't understand correctly what, uh, was the question that, uh, that you wanted
me to, to respond, sorry.
I mean, I, I'm, I'm just opening it up.
Uh, but if you, obviously there's something that resonated with you that brought you up
here, please do use that as, uh, kind of the discussion point.
But really the way that I just opened it first here is saying there's the cypherpunk manifesto
that really leans hard into the privacy aspect of things.
And then you have Vitalik talking about cypherpunks on, uh, you know, making Ethereum cypherpunk
again, but he's talking about it more from maybe a web three perspective where he's talking
about decentralization, credible neutrality, cooperative building or interoperability, um,
and censorship resistance and all that stuff.
Like, it doesn't matter or, you know, uh, is there something, uh, maybe a bit more special
about expanding the definition of being cypherpunk?
Do you, do you have an idea of what cypherpunk is and do you implement cypherpunk ideals in
the work that you do?
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So, uh, I, I think, uh, first of all, uh, the, the topic that actually got my attention
was when you mentioned, like, uh, you were talking about, uh, privacy on transactions and
that's something that, um, how can I say?
We talk a lot on crypto about, uh, privacy and, uh, how blockchain is private, et cetera.
But that's a realization I, like, not just me, but, uh, I realized that, well, the blockchain
isn't privacy the way it is right now, right?
Because let's say you, you send someone something or you buy some, something or someone knows
your PFP, they instantly have access to all your transactions and all the history of that
wallet and everything that has been connected to that wallet.
So not really that private.
Of course, there's ways around that.
People have multiple wallets, et cetera.
But, um, that's a, one of the issues I, I, I see, and, uh, I, I'm pretty sure you guys
also noticed that and, uh, are working towards, uh, solving that.
And, um, in our, well, my work, basically, uh, I work at a startup, uh, we're doing a fully
private AI personal assistant.
That's, uh, basically it's a super cypherpunk, uh, all the ideals behind, like all my teams
based, based, based on, uh, Austrian libertarian, uh, values.
And basically what they, what the, my founder decided to basically build this startup because
so how dark the future of AI is, and I can include crypto as well in this, if, if it's
just, uh, on the big tech hands, right?
And it's, uh, what we're working with is, uh, a hundred percent private using, um, I don't
know, uh, web five, uh, technology.
I don't know if you guys are familiar with, uh, decentralized web nodes from TBD that's,
that's been developed with us.
And that's how we, so I'm not the most technical guy, but, uh, basically that's how we're storing,
uh, user data with privacy in, in our bot.
Like if you're using Kin, uh, our AI, we will not be able to gather information or data about
you, even if we want to.
So like, there's not even that possibility.
So I think that's, uh, that's, uh, solving a problem.
That's a pretty, uh, cypherpunk, uh, worry, right.
Which is, uh, having privacy while using your AI.
And, uh, yeah, that, those are my points.
I don't know if, uh, that answer.
No, that's good, man.
That's, that's, thank you so much, first of all, for coming up and raising your hand.
That's, that's the first and foremost, I wanted to say thank you.
Um, the second is, I think your contributions were, were exactly what we needed.
Um, you're talking about the application level of what it is that we're talking about here
on a theoretical, um, kind of level.
So a hundred percent, when you think about, uh, privacy solutions, uh, to, um, you know,
kind of enable, uh, you know, kind of, again, uh, the privacy for users of your application
are very cypherpunk, uh, at least from their original definition of the concept that I'm
familiar with.
Um, just to give anybody who's listening here a little bit of a background, we're obviously
hosting this space from the Ontology account.
Um, the reason why for me, um, this kind of topic hits, uh, home is because I joined Ontology
about two years ago.
And one of the things that, uh, initially attracted me to the project to become a contributor
is because of this, uh, technology that they're using that is privacy preserving and that's
a decentralized identifiers, right?
So they're using these off chain primitives to be able to give individuals a privacy preserving
identity that works across most platforms, um, including blockchain.
So we're not just talking about blockchains and that's why I said platforms, um, because
it is not dependent on a single blockchain.
So to be able to have an identity that can, uh, recognize all of your other identities from
Bitcoin to Ethereum to Solana, um, and be able to generate from that to a reputation based
on the credentials that you earn on each of these chains and non-chain platforms too, you
can start seeing the, uh, impact that that can make.
Right.
But at the same time, the value in return for the user, right.
For this identity holder is that none of this information is stored on a server, uh, where
I can easily access that information and use it without your permission.
Um, all of this is self-sovereign.
So I'm looking at your account, Kenji, and I see on your bio, like right there in the middle,
it's like privacy, self-sovereign identity, and AI.
Like these are all things that are super, uh, interesting and important to me as well.
Uh, and relevant because again, like I said, we're having this conversation from the ontology
account.
So it's really cool to see, and this is something that I'm always excited to see is new and novel
ways to find privacy or, or find ways to applications to integrate some of these privacy
tools.
Personally, would be more interested to learn about like the, the technology under the hood
on Ken, you were talking about TBD.
I'm familiar with them only in that.
I recently participated in a hackathon as a judge, um, through a sponsorship that ontology
did there at the Decentralized Identity Foundation and TBD also participated and I hosted everyone
on a Twitter space.
So that's really my, the extent of my knowledge there, but I believe they too use DIDs as a
way to issue identities to their users in a way that are self-sovereign.
So definitely very cypherpunk.
Yes.
And I, I love to hear, especially the, the, like the first part of what you said is it was
literally the logical thinking behind this idea, which is, um, my founders, they wanted to
introduce this SSI technology because of, uh, the importance of privacy and protecting your data
on this future of internet.
And they worked quite some time figuring out, um, how they could implement that and how they
could turn, like, because most people, they don't think it's valuable.
They, they won't understand it's valuable to have privacy and to own and control your data.
Right now at this point in time.
So they figured out like the best way to kind of push it as a Trojan horse was to integrate
it with an AI tool that actually brings value to people and people are eager to use.
But while they're doing that, they like normies will have no idea, but they're getting a crypto
address, a DID, and they will be protecting their data for the future.
And like our, our app is in the beta now, but once it's fully, uh, done the finished product,
it's, it's also going to be like multi-platform and, uh, integrated, uh, with, well, everything
that we can integrate it with, uh, and it's going to be open source as well.
So it's another point of the, like the newer cypherpunk ideals that you say about decentralization.
Like, first of all, uh, it's so decentralized that we don't have access to your information.
And also we don't have access to like any ways on how to delete you from, from kin.
And like, if you start to develop, I don't know, it's just, just a crazy example, but, uh, let's
say, uh, you're planning, uh, um, how to make drugs or a terrorist attack or whatever.
Like there's no way for, for us to know what you're doing.
Also, there's no way for us to delete your memory.
And that it's, it's like the debate with, uh, guns or not guns, right?
We, we are providing a tool and, uh, people decide on however they want to use it.
And it's not on our, our reach to be like the police of AI and, you know, like, like some
big tech companies want to be, and I'd love to introduce you to my engineers and tech
team.
If you have any questions about this magic they're doing there, because it's, it's, it's
something very unique and like, I don't have the credentials to talk that well about it.
You're doing a fantastic job, but a hundred percent, I do want to continue the conversation
and learn more about Ken offline.
So, um, we're already following each other.
So that's step one.
Um, definitely let's jump into each other's DMs and then we could even do a group DM with the
rest of your team.
Um, love your inscription too, by the way.
I think that's what it is, right?
It's an inscription that you have as a PFP.
Looks so cool.
Yeah, that's, uh, I, uh, we're good friends with Donnie as you know, and that's probably
how we got connected.
Um, and he's long advocated for a lot of the development that's happening over on the
Bitcoin ecosystem too.
Um, yeah, uh, that's exactly Donnie showed me you guys.
And, uh, I, I just, uh, I just thought like, it's a perfect, uh, match for what we're doing.
And, uh, like the, you know, uh, we, we probably share a lot of the same values and, uh, interests.
Yeah.
So I really like to be, I'd love to be connected and, uh, thank you for, uh, providing me on stage
to talk as well.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And you're doing a fantastic job, by the way, you're definitely talking very intelligent
about the work that Ken is doing.
You know, some of the things that you mentioned that I did want to like highlight, because
I think that's also very cypherpunk, um, as we're expanding the, the vocabulary for this
concept, right?
Because I'm a little old school, uh, I'll, I'll fight tooth and nail when I think that
a concept should be, um, true to its origins because, uh, you know, otherwise then it gets,
um, kind of overtaken by, you know, new philosophies.
And sometimes we forget kind of what the, what, what it originally stood for, but I don't want
to be a maximalist in this either, but you know, when I think about cypherpunk still to
this day, I think about like privacy that to me is like, how can we instill privacy
in the, in the, in the, in the products that we built.
But as we're expanding this vocabulary, you talked about AI, you talked about open source.
You talked about, I think one more thing that I was like, oh my gosh, like these are
all really cypherpunk ways of growing kind of the, oh, uh, you were talking about account,
account abstraction, I think, where you're saying that the user will not know that on
the back end, they're getting a wallet created.
So all of these things I think are super rad, right?
The first one we think about, um, let's just talk about account abstraction for one.
That is super, uh, cypherpunk in that it's really hard.
And I think I mentioned this in the beginning.
It's really hard to tell someone who's never worked with crypto, go and set up a wallet,
go and, um, remember your private key or your seed phrase, don't share it, store it somewhere
extremely safe, but not somewhere where someone can find it.
But remember to always be able to find it.
It's like a lot of things that like, you know, we're, we're, it's not natural, right?
So it's really cool for me to see a lot of the tools like Privy, I think is doing a great
job at this, um, to enable developers like yourselves, uh, like myself and the products
that I build to be able to develop, um, you know, or to, to provide users, uh, account
abstract or excuse me, uh, digital wallets that are cryptographically, uh, you know, secured,
um, that, you know, basically introduces them into the cypherpunk movement, but in a way that
is super simple in a way that is super familiar where it's like, Oh, I'm logging in with my
email.
So what it's like, I'm always used to logging in with my email, but you know, at any point
that person can take ownership over that account by extracting their private key.
Right.
So I think that that's really rad.
And I, I think that that's definitely very cypherpunk.
The other is like leveraging AI, you know, any way that we can accelerate the growth, um, any
way that we can accelerate the visibility, the attention that we can get into these new
technologies I'm all for.
And I think AI is complimentary to crypto, to blockchain, to cypherpunk, uh, ideals.
Um, and the fact that, you know, over at Kin, it sounds like y'all are just leveraging this
and still providing that level of privacy.
Uh, maybe even in the way that you store this data, right?
Uh, you were talking about TBD.
I believe that they do decentralized storage as well.
And then lastly, you were talking about open source.
And I think that there's nothing more cypherpunk than that, because when we think about like
interoperability, decentralization, open source software really has always been when you think
of like Linux, um, and a lot of the original open source, uh, you know, kind of, uh, programs
Mozilla, all these things that enable for us to, uh, build upon some of the existing, uh,
kind of structures, but also enable the community to continue developing that code, not being
dependent on a single developer.
I think all of those things are super cypherpunk.
And as we think about developing Web3, and I think this is really where Vitalik was coming
from when it was thinking about make Ethereum cypherpunk again, just reading from those, um,
values that he described.
These are things that definitely raise to the surface.
Pilaris, you've been a little quiet back there.
I think I saw you, uh, maybe accidentally fall off.
Did you want to add anything to any of the, what we've been talking about?
No, I've just been absorbing the information and yes, um, something always happens with
this, uh, Twitter spaces.
Um, yeah.
So I had some technical difficulties.
I couldn't hear you.
So I had to like re rejoin.
Um, you know, me, I've always, instead of like looking at the, looking at, I've always had
a different angular, uh, perspective over things.
So I've just been envisioning like, uh, the true cypher funk movement and like trying to
like look at it from a realistic perspective and see like what aspects of that movement can
we absorb and be able to, uh, perpetuate in, in, in, in today's world, you know, and the
original ethos of like, you know, dealing with, uh, all these multi-billion industries and
like coming up with everything decentralized.
Um, I mean, would create a, a, a, a huge upheaval, even if that was to, to happen, that dystopian,
um, you know, world where everything is decentralized.
And I'm just looking at it from a realistic perspective.
I'm thinking like, how do you like, you know, how do you bridge that?
Um, what aspects of this whole, um, you know, movement is bridgeable or relatable because
despite all of the, the stuff which we talk about, like, you know, the reality is that
like, it's still a very minuscule amount of population, which understands this.
And, um, the way businesses are being done, um, currently is completely different.
So it's very interesting.
I find this extremely, uh, uh, educating and interesting space where, uh, it's giving me
different ideas to like, you know, how do you implement?
Because we do need AI, you know, we do need that to solve like, you know, issues like logics,
logistics and medicine and, you know, um, carbon emissions and, you know, future survivability
and all of that stuff.
And we do need like good, good, smooth, uh, uh, transactions.
And we need people to be able to bank so that societies can work in an efficient way.
Uh, but at the same time, like, you know, going completely like decentralized,
which I mean, like, you know, I used to use, uh, decentralized, um, uh, apps back in the
days when in 1990s, I remember there was something called, I can't remember that thing.
Was it thorough something where you just download everything?
Um, and that was like open source, um, and like great innovations can happen with open source
stuff, you know, opening, I was, was open source back in the days.
If people remember.
So yeah.
Well, we almost got it back to be an open source.
I don't know.
Like, I don't want to joke around too much about that, but you know, like, yeah, it almost felt
like, um, the old guard was saying, Hey, no, let's bring it back.
But the new guard kind of stuck around and, and I guess is, is back to just being the same corporate,
um, AI.
Yeah, true.
And, and I think like this, it's an interesting shift.
And, um, again, like the key is education to be able to understand the true, um, cyberpunk
movement.
Like I was very lucky enough, like when I was doing the rise with Wagmi-san show a series,
I like actually, uh, you know, interviewed, um, Paul Jenkins, who's, who created like teenage mutant
Ninja Turtles, like, you know, animation, and he was like behind the whole story and stuff.
So I was a huge fan and I interviewed him and he was telling me like, you know, I'm the, we were,
we were the original cyber punks and we were like proper, like, you know, we had these, these,
these aspects, we were like against a lot of bad things which were happening at that point.
And then I think it wasn't, they were like cyber punks.
And then from cyber punks, it's like slightly deviated in the nineties towards cyber funks.
And then like, you know, but like, there's a history, uh, in, in this, in this approach towards
things, but, um, um, it's good.
It creates furore.
It creates like, you know, uh, innovation, it creates like some sort of rebellious, like,
you know, reactionary, uh, uh, stuff and, and that sometimes is needed and, uh, that can create
innovation and that can help us solve problems.
Like, you know, what I, what I was talking about when I started this space is like, you know,
I think that we understand the problems of web three more than the people who have like, you know,
the VCs who just got the money there.
We are the actual people who are participating.
So we know the nuances which are related, which would actually help us like, you know,
progress or be able to connect better.
And then moving back to the article, you know, Vitalik does talk about like community
aspects and like, you know, the community and taking the whole flow of community with
the movement, with the technology would be like a better and secure approach rather than just the,
the movement in its own or the community on its own or the technology on its own.
I'm still fascinated.
And I'm like, I'm not sure like, you know, my, when I talk, it's, it's very ambiguous in terms
of its entirety.
I find it very hard to pinpoint on things because I just get, you know, um, I don't even know the word,
but it just overwhelms me, you know, my brain and the ideas just start, start like creating a picture.
So I'm just telling you the picture, which I'm seeing in my brain with the information,
which you guys have been discussing.
I hope that makes sense.
Yeah, man, it totally does.
And you know, like, it's funny, like every time either you or Kenji have been talking,
I just go back to the article and I'm like, where in the article, uh, does this get mentioned?
Honestly, like, it's so funny because again, I can be a little hardheaded sometimes, uh,
not all the times I think I'm very flexible, but sometimes I can be a little hardheaded.
And like I said, when I think of cypherpunk, the first thing literally in bold, you know,
1700 point letters is like privacy, but you know, like there's a lot, there's a lot more
that cypherpunk can mean, uh, can be, can represent.
And when you think about like what you were talking about community, um, I, it says right
there, open global participation, uh, anybody should be able to participate as a user observer,
or developer on maximally equal footing. Like, I think that's actually quite powerful.
If you think about that, when it says that anyone can participate on the, the, the most
equal footing possible, even if you're an observer or developer, like those are two very different
roles. And to think that there's an opportunity to, uh, participate, uh, on equal footing with one
another, I think that that's quite a interesting thought, but also, uh, going back to the open
source nature of software now, um, and, and from the perspective of decentralization where anyone
can contribute to that code. I think these are ways in which we can think of community being
introduced to the cypherpunk movement. Um, you know, and I think that you don't have to look too far.
You think about like web three and the last two to three years, uh, post defy summer,
the things that really drove the value of the web three space were people, right? Maybe defy summer
might've been more of an individual gain type of, um, you know, kind of system that was developed,
uh, you know, but then there's the NFT movement, right? Where, I mean, we're looking at a lot of people
in the audience, myself included having a PFP. It's like, well, what does that mean? Was it that,
was that just me speculating into something or was it more? And I think for me was like, well, first of
all, this is a way for me to support artists because I do appreciate the work that they do. And there's
never been a better way for me to give my money to an artist directly and then have them develop
that IP. Right. Um, then there was a people that started building things on their own around that
IP. Right. And that's primarily driven by CC zero, which is not always the case for most PFPs,
but I thought that that was really cool. It's like how people can come together and create value really
just by saying, Hey, this is who I am. This is my identity in, you know, the social space and the
digital space, I'm going to create value in this way. And then suddenly you were helping to drive
the value of that project. Uh, and then of course, DAOs where in a much more decentralized fashion,
people can come together and not just buy into a project and saying, Hey, I'm going to buy some
tokens. And that's the way that I create value. Sure. That's one way, but another way it's like,
I'm going to contribute and I'm going to earn my way in. I think that that's so cool because you
develop a form of exclusivity to a community, but you also create a, um, you know, kind of an unwrap.
So there's an inclusivity, uh, rails there to, to bring people into that community. Kenji,
you have your hands up. What's up? Yeah. I wanted to add on this, uh, the community side that, um,
as Polaris was saying, like, I feel like the most important steps for like the movement and,
and like all products and companies around like these values right now is education and onboarding,
like, uh, of normies, like people that don't understand privacy or cypherpunk or the importance
of it. And, uh, uh, I think that, uh, communities are one of the most impressive ways to leverage that,
uh, especially on the web tree space, like the way we build communities on web tree.
It has like, for me, it has turned into like a role model for any company actually. And, uh,
the more people you can gather and add value to their lives. And maybe if it's with
education or with information, whatever, even if it's just like fun and hanging out,
but if in the background you have, uh, this, uh, these values and this narrative being pushed,
like that's the most important thing, right? I see a lot of, uh, web tree projects that, uh, start
and, uh, like, let's say pretend or advertise around those values and, uh, around cypherpunk,
but it's really hard to find the ones that are actually onboarding people and educating people
on the importance of that. So I really like to be a part and, uh, join communities when people
actually care about this and especially care about educating others on this, you know?
Yeah. I think education is, um, you know, a very important piece
of the cypherpunk movement. I mean, otherwise, how would people, um, even be aware of, you know,
this space and what's being developed? And I mean, so for anybody who's, who doesn't know, which,
you know, that's fine. Um, I've long been developing this, you know, concept through a project that I
developed like over two years ago, and that's called crypto sapiens.
And again, along those same values of the cypherpunk manifesto, but from a kind of a softer,
more human, the human layer, right? Which is education. And how can we allow for many more
voices to be heard? Um, so sharing a platform with people to develop content, to develop educational
materials that then speak to people like them in their communities, right? Because this is a global
movement. We can't expect everybody to consume content the way that I do here in the U S if you're
in Argentina, or if you're in, you know, the Ukraine, or if you are in, you know, um, Turkey, like
we need to provide a platform to people from around the world to be able to share what they've learned
with others like them in their own communities. And so I think that's a very, very big, um, and maybe
under, uh, discussed, uh, cypherpunk, uh, concept or, or, or ideal, which is education. In fact,
maybe I'll talk about that in some thread because I'm looking over the original cypherpunk manifesto
and looking over Vitalik's blog posts, I don't see anything about education. So a hundred percent,
this is not being talked about enough that part of the cypherpunk movement, uh, and probably one of
the more crucial elements of the cypherpunk movement is being able to share what we've learned with others
in a way that, uh, connects, uh, with people like ourselves, right? Like, so people who look
and sound like us, we need people to see themselves in this ecosystem too.
Yep. That's, uh, that's very, very good. And, um, I agree a hundred percent. Uh, I, I have a vision
about this that is, uh, most of the OG, like people from the movement, uh, the hardcore,
like the anarchist, uh, cypherpunks, they, they are not that interested in like interacting a lot with
normies and, uh, spreading the word, like educating people on a more like, you know, amateur human level,
normie level. And I see web tree and these values that we have either because we like people believed
in those before or because they are in this ecosystem. I think this is the best, like, uh,
hunting ground, you know, like, uh, the best place for, for this movement to start to get more people
serious about it.
Yeah. Well, as we round the corner here, because we're a few minutes
away, excuse me, from the top of the hour, anything that we didn't talk about that we
should bring up to the stage here in terms of, you know, helping to make crypto cypherpunk again,
that we might've missed. I was gonna, you almost said helping making crypto great.
But yeah, crypto cypher funk again, that'll do. No, I think you pretty much covered everything,
Humpty, especially the last sentence killed it.
Gee, thanks, man.
Well, I appreciate you, Pilar, as always, for being my, uh, you know, my, my partner up here
and on the stage and being able to kind of share these thoughts together with me and
dissect them. I think this is a really good one for, you know, the first space of the, of the year.
Um, it really gave us an opportunity to project, uh, into the year what we would like to see.
Uh, and Kenji, hopefully this is not the last time you join us up here. This is really fun having you
up here too. I think Donnie might be up here again next week. I know he was really busy this week,
but, uh, hopefully you won't be a stranger in the future.
Yeah, thanks, Kenji. I mean, it's been really nice listening to your insights.
And there's a saying that a friend of my friend is my friend and a friend of my enemy is my enemy.
So like Donnie is a very good friend of ours. So you're automatically our friend, bro.
Oh, thank you guys. Thank you. And I, I, I say everything right back to you guys. Like
I've met Donnie. It's such a great soul, great person. Like anyone, he tells me,
oh, this is my friend. It's instantly someone that grows up in my, in my scale. So yeah. And I,
I, I like I was on vacation back in Brazil. Now I'm, I'm still in Brazil, but I'm out of vacation
now. So I'll be more active and yeah, definitely. I have you guys notifications on. So I'll be joining
every time I can for sure. Those are very good spaces. And thank you. Thank you so much.
Awesome. Yeah. We're usually here same time every week. So yeah. Anyways, uh, thank you everyone.
Uh, and until the next time, um, what do we say Polaris? You always have the nice closing there to keep us healthy.
Take care, everyone. Look after your health, drink lots of water, and we will see you guys soon.
Thanks. Bye.
