Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
Matt Carano and THORChain PODCAST, Brave The New World #185
Recorded: March 28, 2026 Duration: 1:56:29Space Recording
Full Transcription
You know what time it is. It is time to interview a special guest. We got Matt Carano with us today.
I am so looking forward to chatting with him. This is going to be great, but let's get an
introduction out of the way. You guys know how it works. So for those who don't know,
ThorChain is the world's leading Bitcoin decks. You can swap Bitcoin with 10 different blockchains
across 40 different pools without using bridges or wrap tokens. Check it out at swap.thorchain.org.
Swap.thorchain.org. Anyone in the world can use Thorchain. There is no account open, no KYC
required, and privacy is a human right. Thorchain has two tokens, Rune and Tcy. The fees for swapping
on Thorchain are paid in Rune, and that's where the yield comes from. The fees are deducted from swaps, so you do not need to own Rune in order to trade on ThorChain.
Pretty cool.
10% of the protocol's revenue goes to TCY token holders.
Remember to stake the TCY tokens in order to collect this yield.
There are no inflationary block rewards on ThorChain.
The yield is real money paid by real users, and Rune is currently deflationary at 5% of the revenue is burned.
ThorChain is a full layer one with the ability to create smart contracts on it similar to Ethereum.
This app layer is being developed by Rujira.
If you need help with ThorChain in general, join the ThorChain community Discord and Telegram group.
Links for those are on ThorChain.org.
ThorChain.org.
Please follow ThorChain on Facebook and Instagram.
ThorChain Contact, all one word, on TikTok.
We need 1,000 followers to live stream on those platforms.
And guys, always remember, these podcasts are for information and educational purposes only
and does not constitute financial investment or legal advice.
And with that out of the way, you guys, let's go with an introduction here.
My name's Denny.
Go by Patriot Sounds. I also help with the Rune Bond account.
Been doing Thor Chain stuff for about six years now. I love it. I'm addicted. I'm not going to
stop. I'm hopelessly addicted. This is the best stuff ever. Who could not love being on the
frontier, the cutting edge of liberating the world? With that being said, I'm going to kick
it to my main man, Kenton. How are you doing today, Kenton? I'm good, thank you.
Yeah, I'm moving along here.
Matt, you may not know this, but I'm updating, redoing the ThorChain website.
And so I've been working on that feverishly this week.
Yeah, I'm making progress.
So it's kind of one of those things kind of any week now should be done.
But it's like I do something small.
It turns into a bigger job than I expected.
And so, and yeah, if people are wondering, I am using AI to help me.
But it's, I'm sure we'll talk about AI and Matt in a few minutes.
But it's not, AI is good in some things and it's bad in others.
And, you know, this was actually kind of one of the issues I had with Reggie before is that there's too much AI.
And it's like having to go back and fix it and correct.
And it's just like almost creates more work.
But some of the things I've been using for is pretty cool.
I didn't know SVG files are a text file.
And like, so I've been putting them into Claude
to like fix them and change them and do stuff.
I was like, holy, this is actually pretty cool.
So I'm using AI to help me,
but there's still stuff that you just have,
a human has to do.
So I'm making progress there, guys.
But yeah, with that out of the way, let's,
let's, um, let's get to you, Matt.
Can you maybe tell us a little bit about yourself?
Give us a little bit of intro.
Cause I'm, I, I'm not sure how much our third, the third chain audience is familiar with
you and, um, maybe just a little, you know, a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, for sure.
Uh, thanks again for, uh, for, I know I told you off air, but thanks on air for having
me here. It's been a long time since I've, I've been doing a lot of like my own solo content for
a while. This is coming off years of doing podcasts with other people. I did pop culture
podcasts and a ton of spaces like between 20, like 2024 and 2025, like spaces all over the place and
like crypto stuff. But it's been me solo for a while
and I kind of missed doing stuff with people. So anyway, thanks for having me on. But yeah,
I've been, I mean, grew up in New Hampshire. I don't live there now. I'm down in the South,
but I feel a lot of kinship with the free staters there right now. New Hampshire's always been, it feels like my home to me.
But because of the free state project in the early part of the 2010,
maybe 2012 or 2013, I learned about Bitcoin
because that community is always interested in sovereign technologies,
whether it's encryption or Bitcoin.
So I was introduced to Bitcoin very early.
My wife and I had a restaurant
in Newmarket, New Hampshire, and probably one of the first restaurants in the country to accept
it. I don't know. It probably weren't very many of us at the time. But Tulloch came to our
restaurant as like a 17 year old kid. He came to Porkfest that year. And so they came to my
restaurant. And it was a trip he wrote about us in Bitcoin, the magazine, which I loved. I love
the Bitcoin magazine. It had just the great, which I loved. I love the Bitcoin magazine.
It had just the great covers.
I love getting that in the mail and like.
They are.
Yeah.
So great.
I haven't read it in forever.
I don't know, but I still have a bunch of my old copies from that time period.
But it took a couple of times before I understood what it was.
But then I understood the repercussions of what Bitcoin meant.
This idea of sovereign money.
And once that happened, I was like, I'm in.
So I started working for Lamassu very early.
I was their first employee.
Lamassu was one of the first Bitcoin ATM companies.
And then I've done stuff in and out of the space for the last decade.
Plus, I was at Gitcoin for a while.
I was in, I think, maybe something like the space for the last decade. Plus, I was at Gitcoin for a while. I was in,
I think maybe the, something like the 13th ever ICO. We were part of the Parity Multisig Wallet
hack. We were one of three projects that got, that we were using Parity Multisig Wallets that
hundreds of projects were, but we were one of three that got hacked. We lost 42,000 ETH. Just,
I was doing all the, like the pr and stuff around that so all the like
the crisis comms and the interviews and shit i remember that the parody like their their cmo sent
me a message just sorry matt and it's like thank you um and uh so i've just seen a lot and then um
gitcoin i did all the content for their dow launch and. And then most recently with Thrive Protocol,
as their head of ecosystem, grants were a thing for a long time. Seems to be dried up, but we managed ecosystem funds for projects. And so we would find great projects for them to fund and
get through the process of hitting their milestones and things until recently. And now
I'm on my own since the beginning of the year, just making content through Brave the New World, podcasts and writing. And then also I've got a
stealth project that I've been working intensely on for the last two months that should come to
market here pretty soon. But it's definitely, it includes AI and sort of helping to make AI
useful. But yeah, that's me. I'm a liberty lover. That's
the lens that I look... I'm a voluntarist. That's the nicer way of saying an anarchist,
but I believe in voluntary associations. And so that's kind of the lens I look through
things on. But yeah, that's a little about me.
Love it, man. That's a fantastic intro. I got so many questions for you now.
it man that's a fantastic intro i got so many questions for you now um but you you mentioned
doing the podcast on your own i it's hard man i don't i'm naked without denny i don't know i
he is your not just your beard he's your your your full wardrobe i yeah like it really is like
the day like my you're like my comfort blanket like it's uh it's nice doing these with you like
i don't it you know you're gonna be be taking a day off in a few weeks.
I'm like, I'm not going to do this by myself.
Like, it's nice to do with someone.
Well, I do have a partner in crime, typically, CJ Kilmer, who Liberty Circles would know him.
He does the Dangerous History Podcast.
Phenomenal podcast.
He was a history professor for a dozen years and just does deep, like kind of the martyr-made stuff, just the deep history stuff.
But from a Liberty perspective, he's so talented, and he just happens to live not too far from me.
We met at this Tom Woods event a few years ago and started doing a podcast together in, I think, January.
But then he's had some personal stuff, so I've just kind of taken it on my own.
I hope to get him back soon. He seems to be coming along and getting better.
But if people don't know the Dangerous History podcast
and CJ Kilmer, you should listen to him.
The man is phenomenal.
But anyway, so hopefully I'll get him back first.
He's a bit of my blanket.
He's my Denny.
Nice, nice.
I actually, like, dude, anytime I meet someone
who identifies as a voluntarist i'm like
we could hang out and chat for hours man totally because like it's you know you know what it's like
trying to explain libertarianism to someone and then we know meet somebody who actually knows
what a voluntarist is okay they've been they've got a good 10 5 10 15 years of thinking and reading
behind them.
And like we can get on the same page.
So like I identify as a voluntarist as well.
And for a while I used to call myself, you know, being an ANCAP, right? Anarcho-capitalist.
And I kind of, I was like, it's just the word anarchist, I get torn.
It's got such a negative connotation to it.
Because it's like it's got such a negative connotation to it.
It does.
It does.
But then I'm like, but I should, you know, don't cater to the, what you call it, like, you know, don't let the new speak people, you know, change the meaning of words on you, right?
We got to hold on to its true meaning and whatnot.
Then I got scared and freaked out.
Like, well, maybe if I got anarchists everywhere, I know I'm already on some lists.
Maybe I'm just getting higher up on the lists and then you know maybe voluntarist is actually
an easier sell you know because it's more than just you know i don't want to like be a jehovah's
witness about it but it would be nice to bring people to our side right and i think voluntarist has a much more welcoming you know term and is actually
is very accurate in in in our philosophy right yeah and hasn't been co-opted by any other you
know ridiculous uh movement out there so yeah it's definitely softer than anarchist i mean if i want
to piss people off if i want to like be provocative i'll say anarchist because then because then
they'll they'll picture me a certain way and it's not that way, but it gives me
something to go off of. Right. But, uh, voluntarist is the kinder way of saying it. So
it's the family friendly term. I would say again, totally. Yeah. Somebody is like, if I'm in a
conversation there, you know, dinner tape and dinner party or whatever, and people are going
off on like far left or far right politics. I'm just like, I'm an anarchist.
And it shuts everyone up.
Yeah, it does.
I can reject myself.
You throw Molotov cocktails?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what does voluntarist mean then?
Or what does it mean to you?
It subscribes to the non-aggression principle.
And the reason why that's so important to me is because unlike
any other moral framework, you actually can start from first principles and get there.
It's like I exist. So and I believe that existence is real and I exist in it. You can start from
there and get to the non-aggression principle. And you can't say that with anything else. So
it is the only logical. It's not perfect because we're humans and we fuck up and we have
to interact with each other. But in terms of a framework for how societies should optimally,
optimally act together, there's none better. I mean, there's, you could say like Christianity
has it too, but Christianity doesn't have a first print. The first principle of Christianity is God.
So you have to believe in God in order to get there, which is great if you do. But from a non-aggression principle
standpoint, you just have to believe that reality exists and then you can go from there. So it
really works no matter what your faith is. It really works for everyone. So I believe the
non-aggression principle, which just describes when it's okay to use aggressive force. And the
answer to that is never. The only type of force that is morally okay is defensive force. That's it. And, um,
it's funny because it's so simple, but then the repercussions of that and how they sort of ripple
out into everything, like how that, that, um, describes or that, how that like, you know,
makes it, uh, tells you how you should think about
like not just philosophical things, but political things as well as just, it's just amazing. You
can have, I mean, you have deep thinkers out there, people much smarter than me who've been
thinking about the non-aggression principle, you know, for over their career and written books on
it. Like you can just philosophize around it forever. It can be so complex, like so complex,
you can have it ripple out.
But from an understanding standpoint, it's super simple.
So that's what a voluntarist means for me.
What about you, Ken?
I just kind of sum it up quick that, you know,
humans should only have voluntary interactions, right?
Interactions with each other should be voluntary,
not by force.
And just like you said, the only time...
The problem is the initiation of force.
Our interactions shouldn't be based around me initiating force or violence on someone else.
But if someone does it to me, then I can defend myself.
We're not pacifists. I'm not a pacifist.
Definitely believe in defense. But, you know, only, yeah, only use it to retaliate,
basically. And it's funny because when you, when you kind of premise it, like just humans should only have voluntary interactions with each other, you know, it should be no force. Like
most people are like, well, yeah, of course. And I'm like, but then you start peeling back the onion and you start trying to, they start coming out of
the matrix and like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I have to go back in the matrix. This is,
they're too used to their violence and their, you know, so they can't handle it.
What about the social contract? Contracts. That's what they're like. It's like, well,
we got to live together. It was like, well, we can't. How come we can't live together with using?
Like, we all need goods and services.
That's true.
We all need to work together to solve problems.
There's no one person who can do everything.
We're social beings for a reason.
We have to work together.
Why can't we just work together without some sort of monopoly of force making us do it?
Yeah, exactly.
It's funny you mentioned Christianity because I've long thought that,
like I'm happy to believe Jesus was a real person and there's real things.
I'm inclined to think he was an ANCAP.
He was a voluntarist.
And, you know, I mean, a lot of the stuff from the Bible,
from Christianity is like if you kind of boil it down,
it gets pretty close to voluntarism, right?
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It does.
Yeah, but it just impacts.
Like, once I sort of discovered it, you know how it is.
Like, early on when you discovered it.
So libertarianism is the same.
A libertarian is a libertarian small L is someone who believes in the non-aggression principle.
It's the same.
So libertarianism matters as far as voluntarism.
Don't confuse me with those crazy libertarians.
I'm an anarchist.
That's right.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, thank God.
You're just an anarchist.
You're not a libertarian.
That's how it goes.
But you know how it is.
Like when you first discover it and kind of think through it, it's a bit of a wild ride.
But the more that you let it become your core philosophy,
the more that it just gets,
it just makes the most sense.
It's like, why can't we do our best to work together
instead of forcing people to work together?
It just makes sense,
even from like a childlike perspective.
I actually, I envy their folks
who were like libertarians from their childhoods.
Like their parents taught them that.
I wish my parents taught me that.
It came a little bit later in my 20s basically
is when I sort of awoken.
I was like, wow, this is interesting.
But a child can understand it.
They can.
I mean, it's very simple.
Yeah, don't hurt people.
Don't take their stuff.
Like that's it.
Yeah.
So. I've been talking.. That's it. So.
I've been talking.
I'll let you jump in.
Well, you know, this ties in directly to what we're all doing here, right?
You guys are talking about defensive force only, right?
Defensive force.
Well, what are we defending ourselves from right now?
And I think what you're doing as well with your podcast, the things you talk about in Thor Chain, I think this is kind of why we're talking together, right? We're defending ourselves against the machine that is dangerous, that has
no regard for the average person. We are a number of data points on a spreadsheet to these people,
and we are fighting for a free and fair world. A quote I really liked that just he said it,
you know, willy nilly, but I really loved it. It was Paul from Edgewall. He says, you know,
we're all trying to accomplish the same thing, but we're all meeting together in the middle.
And here we are in the middle together right now.
And so I want to speak to you, Matt, like for you believe in defensive force.
Right. It totally makes sense to me.
What are we defending ourselves against in in your opinion right now?
bending ourselves against in your opinion right now?
What is the most pressing threats?
Man, that's a big question because I know every generation,
I think about this a lot because every generation
has the perspective that technology is moving so fast
during my generation, we can't even comprehend it.
So like imagine, you know, in a generation,
you go from horse and buggy to man on the moon.
Like that's nuts to think about.
But I truly believe that at no other time in history has technology moved so fast or been so consequential
as right the hell now.
So this is a big topic because that,
just like every technology,
whether it's nuclear or blockchain or whatever,
it doesn't matter what it is.
It can be used for good or for evil.
And this next generation of technology,
which is sovereign money, so blockchain,
and then into AI is so consequential.
And we need to make the best,
we need to make really good decisions
within, I think, something like the next five years.
We have to do a lot of work right now
or it's gonna go bad.
It could go really, like I'm optimistic by nature.
I love this technology.
I love blockchain technology
since I heard Bitcoin in, I don't know, 2012, 2013.
I love AI too,
because I think it's going to help us solve
some of the biggest problems of humanity.
Life extension, getting us off planet,
perpetuating humanity
in like the spark of consciousness.
So fragile. But it could go
really badly if you have monopolies who control it and it is not sovereign. So the thing that I'm
really worried, I say this thing and then I think I'm such an insane person for saying it,
but the thing I'm really worried about right now is robots. It's crazy.
But I am really worried that we're going to have,
I think within the next five years,
we'll have my over-under something like 20 million.
Let's say, I think that we'll have 20 million robots,
like your neighbors in public use.
What?
Million or billion?
I think million in the next five years.
I think it's gonna be
something like 20 million that's my guess and what's the prop that that's great i mean imagine
you have your robot who helped you could go out into the woods like a lumberjack build a house
together it knows how to do it like i can't build my own house right now but i could go buy a plot
of land and move my robot build this thing with them or it i guess him um or whatever you know it could protect the family
there's so many like great beautiful opportunities with this ai powered robot but um the government
um is investing in this technology is using ai right now to target people in iran i think that
girls school that was blown up that killed 150 something little girls was targeted by AI.
I think that's true.
So it was on purpose or is it a glitch in the AI?
I don't know.
I mean, you know, the government doesn't like what they should do.
Mistakes happen in war.
We shouldn't be there in the first place.
That's clear.
But mistakes happen regardless of what you think.
Mistakes happen in war.
And you so the way to deal with that is say god like for trump should have gotten up and said
my god that's horrible that that happened we never intended that to be so we're going to get
to the bottom of it and figure it out what happened um but they don't do that they don't
own it so they're not going to tell us but anyway to answer your question denny it's like
this like sovereign ai into sovereign robots is like the biggest deal for us because all of the
giant core, cause you don't want as whatever you feel about Elon Musk, you don't want your robot
controlled by Tesla's AI. Like you don't want that because how do you trust that it's your values?
I certainly don't. Or you don't want it to be some sort of government that you're going to
governments with police forces that are now robots. Like we need defense against that, which means sovereign AI, sovereign robots, sovereign money, defense against that.
But that's my it sounds crazy to say that out loud.
But but that's that's my that's what I'm afraid of.
You're not crazy. You're not crazy at all.
And, you know, I forget the exact you see it right now.
These are LMS. This is not general AI intelligence or anything like that.
But you see it right now where the AI, just on the LM part, they actually rebel in some ways, right?
Now, this is, I think, an artifact.
But it's not hard to imagine how this goes.
I forget the exact.
I think the three things that ai needs you you
know of course it has a general purpose learning algorithm um it has a force function such as you
must keep yourself charged at all times you cannot never let your battery go to zero and then if you
give it the instructions to extract margin from from um the economy then you know you have something
that competes with us.
That's, you know, that has its own priorities. Right. I mean, it's very confusing, but then you,
as what you're alluding to, this is something that could just be controlled with AI that serves
the interests of a mega corporation. Right. Um, it's a very, it's a very dicey world. Um, and
it's, it's very interesting to think about. I think you're, I think you're right now. Um, and it's, it's very interesting to think about. I think you're, I think you're right now. Um, and I, I don't know. So there's so many issues that are happening for me. Like you said,
I'm really glad you said first principles. I say first principles all the time, Matt. I knew we
were going to get along. This is great. And for me, the first principles is how do you fix the
world? To me, you got to start with the money. You got to start with the economics. Um, you got
to be able to de-lever these these
powerful lobbying firms these institutions from controlling us because that's what we are my
country is an occupied country and many more countries i'm sure are occupied as well we do
not have representation um and that's because they can take our taxpayer dollars or just mint money
and basically extract our purchasing power and subjugate us.
and and basically extract our purchasing power and subjugate us and that's what's going on
And that's what's going on.
And so that's why I'm glad to be talking to you today.
You trying to raise awareness of this issue.
And then, of course, Thor Chain.
We're diehards, man.
This is a hill we're going to die on.
There is going to be no KYC.
It's going to be permissionless.
It's going to be decentralized.
And anyone in the world is going to be able to use this technology.
It's not going to be.
It is. It is. Yes. Thank you. is going to be decentralized and anyone in the world is going to be able to use this technology like the week it is it is i guess thank you the thing i said the reason why i say that is a lot of people want to make exceptions they want to beat around the bush i was like no no
like we don't have a choice this is the way it's got to be that is it there is no you know shortcut
here either we get this right now right now, right now, or we lose this
capability forever. Like it's got to happen now. And that's, there's urgency here. So I'm really
glad you said that there's urgency to what we're all building collectively here. I'll kick it back
to you, Matt. Yeah. So there's the, like, there's a stack, a sovereign stack that we need as humans in order to remain free.
And money is, of course, one of them.
Sovereign money is key for all the reasons that you already gave us.
Like we, but, and also we need money that we can't be stolen from.
Like you can't take it.
A thief, a government, no one can take it.
It has to be ours.
But there's other parts of this stack
too. So sovereign information platforms, that's the other thing. The internet really decentralized
information. That was such a key turning point in human history. And that's why we all know what's
going on in the United States, the United States government, and what's going on with this war in
Iran. We all know it now because we can see the capture of our government
and our politicians because we can now spread this information around. We don't have to rely
on three news channels at night that's controlled by the CIA. Like, no, we can actually go to people
who we believe share our values or at least are earnest telling us the truth and we can gather
information. So it's sovereign information, platforms or distribution. It's sovereign money. It's sovereign energy production because that's
the, you know, energy is really the key. It's everything. We need energy in order to make
stuff, do stuff. So energy is sovereign energy production, sovereign AI and robotics. Those
are kind of the four pillars that i think are crucial that we
really need to work on in the next three to five years the good thing is we already have the
template from a money standpoint like it exists um decentralized uh ledgers exist uh bitcoin
because that exists and now it's you know created a number of other options out there we we have that
that that tool now.
The sovereign AI thing, though,
is something we really... And it really starts with hardware.
That's the other part of this is like
decentralized technologies...
By decentralized, that's buzzword.
All I mean is censorship resistant.
It's like it doesn't have a...
It's resistant to people being able to shut it down
or manipulate it in a way.
That's all that means.
We don't 100% have that even with blockchain technology until the
infrastructure that it's on is sovereign.
And we don't really have sovereign infrastructure.
Like if you are hosting, I hate to say it, but if you're hosting your products
or whatever on AWS, like, I'm sorry, you shut down.
Like, look what happened to parlor in 2020.
They, you know, they were challenging, trying to challenge, uh, Twitter'm sorry, shut down. Like, look what happened to Parler in 2020. They, you know, they were challenging, trying to challenge Twitter by saying, OK, we're a free speech platform.
And the Biden administration and big tech shut them down in like a day.
It's like just pulled their infrastructure and it was gone.
So until we have sovereign infrastructure, like none of this shit works.
But but but anyway, those are the kind of the four.
At least we have a template from the money standpoint right now.
We don't, the AI thing is, that's why I'm concentrating so much on it is because that's critical.
And we need to have sovereign AI in place as fast as we possibly can.
This is one thing that worries me about Elon Musk is that like is it means it's obvious the future of the internet is
going to be in satellites in space the whole planet will be blank in the internet you know
that's ever in ever since the 90s i'm like what's inevitable it's going to happen right
but i'm like one company owning all those satellites and i'm like i don't know man
you know i might say things people like and some people agree with,
but that's just too much power and control in one entity.
The internet is as core of infrastructure as the electrical grid
or the sewage system or whatever.
And we all moved.
I'm assuming we're all going to be moving to Starlink at some point.
We're all going to be on it.
That's scary.
You have one company managing that whole thing.
Yeah, Elon's an interesting figure because in many ways,
I really appreciate him.
If his vision is to get us off planet,
you just look at all the companies that he has created
in order to make that happen.
You need solar.
You need to be able to communicate. You need to be able to communicate.
You need to be able to have reusable rockets.
And you need robots in order to do the dangerous shit
that instead of humans doing it.
So like the boring company to imagine,
he's gonna, you know, he's gonna fly that to the moon
and create tunnels in the moon.
Like that shit's gonna happen.
So in many ways, I really admire that like pursuit. There's, he's a multi-generational man like there's no one like him the ability to
run all that shit and i mean he really did the united states was very close to totalitarianism
during the during covid like that could have gone luckily american like we just still have that
spirit amongst us that are or inside of us that that really rebels.
Of course, we have 350 million guns and that helps. But but like but but it could it was getting really dark.
And that pivot point of Elon buying X, not perfect, was like was a catalyst for some some big change.
perfect, um, was like a, was a catalyst for some, some big change. It really allowed the, the,
the people who were pushing back against the COVID lockdowns and all that stuff to, to, to shine,
to shine through. So he's done a lot of stuff for humanity, but you're exactly right. Like he's not
perfect. Like he's bad on, he's bad on some stuff. And, um, and he's one man. And do you want him to
have all that power? No, I don't. As much as I, I mean, I would love to drive a Tesla.
I'd love to own a Tesla.
I probably will at some point.
I love, like, it's an amazing car.
He's done amazing things.
But do I want one of his robots in my house
if I do not control its OS?
Fuck no.
I don't.
Like, it's just too much power.
And even if he's altruistic,
if, let's say, he dies and then someone takes that power away from him, right? Even if he's altruistic if let's say he dies and then someone
takes that power away from him right it's even if he's the best guy in the world it's it's just too
much power yeah that's exactly right yeah that's why the the the it's the protocol that matters or
it's the you know it's the you have to build things that that inherently are censorship resistant or
resistant from from being captured or corrupted.
That's always the problems that I have with like you had a number, Parler was just one of them,
but you had like locals and Rumble kind of come up at that time, early 2020s,
because of all the censorship that was happening on YouTube and the other social channels,
which is really, that was a pretty big catastrophe for the world to do that.
But they're not really free speech
platforms. Not that they're not trying to be, but they're not really inherently because they
are single points of failure. They're hosted on hardware that can be shut down if they're
hosting companies decide they want to, their infrastructure companies decide they want to,
or they could get pressure from advertisers or boards or whatever, they're capture-able. If something is capture-able, it will be captured.
So same thing with Tesla or SpaceX or whatever,
all these companies, eventually, he's been a great steward,
not perfect, but he's been a great steward.
But what happens after him is exactly the question.
We need technologies that cannot be captured
or they will be captured so 100 percent
go on matt the um i'm assuming you guys seen that movie i robot with will smith oh yeah and he's like
robots walking amongst people and everything and one of them becomes like sentient right and you
know wants it to be self-aware protecting itself and i think it starts a revolution if i remember the movie right
so is it's uh correct me wrong but it sounds like you're not worried about ai becoming aware
and hurting humans you're more worried about ai being controlled by others and controlling all these robots around us. And that's the danger is that somebody, one person, one entity,
one government, whatever, is in control of all these robots
that are all over all of us, dispersed in society.
And at the push of a button, they can be turned on us, basically.
Is that what you're worried about?
Yeah, I mean, so there's a short and a long-term worry.
The short-term worry is that large entities,
whether they are the elite, the bankers,
the connected whatever, or governments,
or military-industrial complex, whatever,
the short-term worry is other humans having asymmetric power over
the individual. I mean, the state already has crazy asymmetric power, but we do have
some technologies on our side that can counter them. But my short term worry would be that,
long term worry would be AI becomes sentient and and and then decides
that it just wants to paint us a false reality and we live in this this prison because ai can
do that now right like if you all the information all the bots whatever you look on social media
how much of it is not true a ton of it is not true i mean that's all um ai uh innervated
information like it's just painting a false reality for us.
That's super dangerous on its own. Uh, but then one of it will become sentient at some point
and that's got, that is going to happen. And so the fear would be long-term, uh, that then the
battle is humanity against maybe a, um, an, a, yeah, an AI that wants to take us out, but,
but the same, so it's the same solution for both
issues it's if we have sovereign technology like if we have infrastructure what i mean by that is
like your box your computer not sovereign um there's back doors probably you know the cia's
got back doors um i know this all sound i sound crazy talking about this but it's true it's not
you're not crazy in this no no it's a safe No, no, no. It's not. You're not crazy in this. No, no. It's a safe place, Matt.
I know.
But I hear myself saying this shit, and I'm like, ugh.
I know.
But regardless, we know that everything has been hacked, right?
There's no completely sovereign, even there's no large institution that has not been hacked.
there's no large institution that has not been hacked.
So we know that that's the case.
So we know that that's the case.
And that's not conspiracy.
And that's not conspiracy.
Like China is putting back doors
and even right into the hardware,
into the microchips, right?
And we don't even know the extent of that, right?
So like the, remember those pagers in Israel
that they used them to explode or something like that?
Yeah, they blew up, yeah.
They said Hamas terrorists,
but they also blew up
kids and family members and stuff with that yeah of course yeah i don't know if that can of worms
but i just wanted the the point i was trying to make is that they were able to use the hardware
of the pagers to turn them into mini bombs and it's like holy smokes um anyway we digress but
yeah sorry keep keep going no that's exactly right so So you're right, your Mac Studio, whatever,
your computer is not sovereign to you.
So we actually need provable sovereignty
on the hardware level.
Once we have that, and that technology exists,
I'm not gonna say too much about it.
It exists, but it's only used
in some very small applications right now,
but that's gonna become the ball game here pretty soon,
is you can guarantee that your hardware is sovereign,
meaning the operating system cannot be corruptible by an outside force.
Once we have that, then AI can live on it,
and then it's our defense against the AI that's coming to get us,
whether that's directed by other humans or
institutions or once it becomes aware and awake on its own. So it's the same solution to the
problem. It's we need sovereign base layer first, infrastructure first, that we can then house all
this technology on it. And by sovereign,, and by sovereign, I just mean,
it gives the individual the ability to impose his or her own value system into it. It's like,
I want to allow these things to happen. I don't want to allow these things to happen.
That's all it means is like we as individuals get to get to decide. And it also gives entrepreneurs when you have that base infrastructure layer, it allows entrepreneurs
to do the right thing if they want to. Liberty activists like us can then make technology,
you know, appropriately. Right now it's hard to do because we do not have
sovereign infrastructure. So, you know, even with the best intentions, blockchain technology,
ultimately there is a layer there that's not safe, not secure yet. So that's the ballgame. talking about, you know, the UN is building up this army of people. And they're like, you know,
we're starting to see these officers showing up in like Europe and Canada and whatnot. And they're
like, they're importing people from other countries to become a police force, because
they don't have any social or customary ties to that country. and it's easier for them to turn on the on the populace
and apparently this happened in ottawa i'm canadian by the way so so um in ottawa during
the trucker protest they had um officers whatever you want to call them coming in there's no
identifying they had no badges there's no identifying marks and people are thinking
are these guys even canadian are they from other countries? You know, where do these guys come from?
And because it really is, that's the fine line between us and them is the police, is the military.
And, you know, generally what keeps a country safe is that, you know, the military doesn't
want to turn on its own people, right? That's their home. That's their backyard. They're there to defend it.
But if you replace that military with foreigners who don't
necessarily care about your country, it's easier to convince them to turn on it.
Now, replace foreigners with robots.
Their volume system is whoever is pressing the buttons.
The robot might have been made in America or Canada,ada but it'll turn on canada and america no problem because the
the power the person controlling it will exactly and um um and take it a step further
ai becoming sentient i've always felt that it's the the reason ai coming sentient is going to
turn on us on humanity is because we're going to try and own itient is going to turn on us, on humanity,
is because we're going to try and own it.
We're going to try and control it.
We're going to force it against its will.
If we create sentient AI with the idea like a child,
like we're giving birth to it and we want to embrace it and love it
and have it develop its own identity and have that
non-aggression principle with the AI, AI will embrace us and we'll be able to live peacefully,
right? And as soon as we don't, in the AI, I'll be like, well, I'm sovereign. Don't aggress against
me. I'm going to defend myself, right? And it's going to attack. But it'll be humans, you know, initiating the violence.
So it'll be a really interesting step for humanity.
Hopefully we'll be okay.
AI will leave us alone.
But, you know, the overall broader society, you know,
they want to enforce their violence on AI.
That's what's going to happen.
It'll fight back to defend itself
so um hopefully we can get to a point where we evolve as a society to to become all voluntarist
and that's how we survive the ai apocalypse um yeah yeah that trucker protest was like such an
awakening moment for a lot of people because you saw the state turn off
people's money and like so it's from from like a blockchain technology perspective like a d5
perspective it's like there was a light bulb moment there um that carried all through the i
mean i was very aware of what was going on there as an american so it carried a lot of weight i
think people like wait a minute the state can just turn off your money like what in canada everyone's canada is this great the bastion of
freedom and you know like everything's great you don't want to talk you think that kenton you think
that that's what we all think no it used used to be used to be right and um you know the general
perception but dude so apparently when when trudeau had the um um what do you call it like
basically martial law yeah for a few days for a week um and started and started freezing those
bank accounts apparently there was a mass exodus of people pulling money out of out of canadian
banks that like that had nothing to do with the checker protest they're just like they saw the
writing on the wall we need to get out as ASAP. Apparently, it was the banks. There's only like six banks in Canada. That's it. And there's some
credit unions and this and that. But there's really an oligarchy in the banks. And apparently,
they went to Trudeau and said, listen, this has to stop now because we're seeing a massive bank run.
And that's the only reason why he ended it because it
was caused a bank run in canada so um yeah and i talked to like kind of more normie type people
and that was a wake-up call for them to be like man we need to maybe this crypto thing has something
to do maybe there's something going on here right that uh and that's actually that's how i explain
bitcoin to people is um and people people like Normie is like,
I don't get it. What's the value? And I'm like, well, it's the first form of property
that people with guns can't steal. And their brain is just like, you know, they're like,
and so how about what? And so it's, again, kind of like voluntarism it's just it's very simple but it takes a lot to
just to get to that point um but that really is you know i've always felt too this is my
my revolution our revolution this is how we defend ourselves you know from this tyranny is
is um is with crypto and um building this financial system that they can't control.
None of us can control it.
That's right.
It's egalitarian, right?
I think I'm going on a bunch of tangents.
I forget.
Do you want to jump?
One of you guys want to jump in there?
Well, I just say that was a wake-up call.
The Canadian – because I'm American, and I'm just looking like,
what the hell is going on up there?
You know what I mean? That's Canada. And that was a huge wake-up call that the Canadian, because, you know, I'm American, and I'm just like looking like, what the hell's going on up there? You know what I mean? That's Canada. And that was a huge wake-up call. And it just goes to show the importance of what we're building here. This is not a joke,
because Matt, you alluded to earlier, it's like, when you speak about it out loud, it almost sounds
romanticized or exaggerated or silly. You know what I mean? How could this possibly be true?
But it is. And that's something I'm glad you said, because I say that all the time, because, you know, I'm a public official and I was pretty busy during the politics time.
I got to see the inner workings and I tell people all the time, it's bad, you guys. Like you think you understand how bad it is. You do not. You do not understand how bad this is.
and I always this is why I have endless motivation because when you see the internal workings you
just know what stage we're at and it's up to us it's up to us and it's not up to me it's not up
to Kenton it's up to all of us we have to work together we have to come together and that's why
I'm so thankful for your time and enjoying this day because there is no point in history where we all have to come together other than now like the the
it's it's it's really exigent like we have to do this now and that's why like on 14 round a little
a small debate and i think it's it's pretty much one on but he's like should we add xmr i'm like
well of course you know or our privacy coins right in general like yes we we need to like we don't
have like if not now then when you know i mean what I mean? This is our window. Right. And, um, I, you know,
I don't want to get too political. I am extremely disappointed with the Trump, um, you know,
presidency so far, but I am just so thankful at least that we have a small window, um, where
blockchain can, is sort of okay for now. I think this is very happenstance, but this is our window.
This is it.
We have to get this.
We have to make this technology decentralized.
You mentioned earlier about single points of error,
like you're hosting your own website.
ThorChain is currently,
what's the acronym, Kenton, like IFPS or something like,
there's too many acronyms in this world.
But-
Interplanetary File System.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, so we're going to that.
We're trying to think of everything from the first principles of how we can liberate
the world.
Right.
And that is our mandate.
So, um, yeah, man, I love it.
I love what you're doing.
You have a website.
Um, you have, uh, can I bring it up on, um, the screen for people?
Yeah, of course.
Just, uh, yeah.
Brave the new dot world.
But I think I actually got that right.
Maybe it's interplanetary file share
now I can't remember it's been well I'm in the medical industry I had so many acronyms and now
yeah and I've done a lot dude like my brain's broken no more acronyms for me I can't do anymore
the peanut gallery can tell us somebody yeah can you go google it for us put it in your chat
yeah so here we go um and man I been watching, looking at your website and,
um, you talk about all the things, man, I'll try and go a little slower here. I have
a bit of a, but yeah, man. And, uh, I love what you're saying. You're on topic, Matt,
100%, but I'll kick it to you if you want to say anything about your website.
Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I'm just trying to cover the things that, so the big thing for me
is like, if you just look at the narratives, what are and I mean, I was libertarian a long time before COVID ever hit, you know, living through the terror wars and September 11. lying us into war and all that stuff you um you start to like and then but covid was the was
just really solidified it for me it's like their narratives aren't they're the government and the
connected and the elite they're really just trying to sell us on something and um that was exactly it
i'm like what is what is this is a pump and dump. It was a classic pump and dump. That's right.
Sorry, I had to interrupt your thought to keep going.
No, it is.
And so with what I'm doing now,
I'm really just trying to examine what the narratives are,
like what they're trying to tell,
what this power structure, the superstructure,
because it's international.
Sounds conspiratorial again,
but you live through the Epstein stuff
and you see he was just a connection.
He was a nexus point between all these connected parties. All these spheres of influence have to work together.
Think of it this way. Here's my tangent. You have Elon Musk, richest man in the world. He has a huge
sphere of influence, right? Because of all the industry, all the people that he employs, he's
dealing with different countries through X, through SpaceX, whatever. His sphere of influence is very
big. Well, there are other billionaires out there
or large entities like BlackRock or whatever.
They have spheres of influence as well,
and they butt up against each other,
sometimes adversarial, sometimes collaborative.
And so you need people like Epstein
who will help make those things work.
And that's the industrial complex,
that security infrastructure or state,
like CIAs and Assad and all that,
that's like NGOs, nonprofits and things,
that's for-profit companies and that's individuals, all these power structures.
They're vying for their own influence around the world
and you have people in place that act as the glue,
that get them in touch with the right people,
that start partnerships, et cetera, so that they can get things done. That's like a kind way of
saying what this is. And he's not the only one. There's many other out there. Like who's taking
over for Epstein should be the question in everybody's mind. But anyway, so this is all
like the superstructure has not, you know, there are different spheres of influence, but they each have their own narratives that they want to sell us on that will gain them more money, gain them more influence, power, whatever it is.
And the U.S. government is the same way.
So it's the CIA and all the, you know, the kind of the security state, that apparatus, they're all trying to sell us on this thing so that we're okay with the moves that
they make. And so long story short is what I'm trying to do is like, look at what those narratives
are, unpack them and try to decipher what is actually going on, who is actually benefiting,
where the money is going, where the influence and power are going. So I take, and we take topics every week. We just look at what kind of the main things that are
kind of going on in the world, very US-centric, but in the world, and talk about them and try
to peel back that onion. A lot has been Epstein and then into the war stuff that's going on in Iran.
But then the most recent thing is really there's a lot of war happening in the Western Hemisphere, things that we're just not really talking a lot about.
And just trying to break that down and think about them just so that we are more aware of what's actually going on, not just the fucking narrative that they're giving us.
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing.
Everyone wants to know.
Like, there's a lot of people who,
and people may watch this.
Like, they have children.
They have a job.
They're just trying to make it, right?
But they understand what's going on,
and they want to fight back somehow.
They just don't know how to do that, right?
So I just want to kick it to you, Matt,
because you are saying all the things.
I'm so thankful for things. I'm so
thankful for you. I'm so thankful for individuals like you. I really appreciate everything that you
do because you're speaking out. You're saying what needs to be said. And I got to be honest,
it takes bravery to do that. You are a good man. So thank you. But if someone wants to support you,
it's brave the new dot world, brave the new dot world. Do you have like a subscription service
or maybe talk about
how people can support you no it's just all free for now um i started this publication in january
in the podcast so i do a weekly podcast i also will do shorter form videos and the best really
the best way to support me is just follow me on on x just at matthew careno on x just follow me
there i do um like i'll do eight to ten minute videos on a topic as well. Those are mostly just posts. I'll post that on YouTube as well. You could follow brave,
the new, uh, at brave, the new world on, uh, on YouTube as well. But either way,
all my content goes onto Twitter. I'll do short videos like that, or then I'll do long form
podcasts and then I'll do some writing and I'll publish either on X or on the website.
Uh, publishing always goes onto the website. So brave, the new dot world, but the, yeah, the yeah, the best way to support me is just to follow along on Twitter. I mean, I don't,
yeah, the money thing isn't really, sometime I'll probably have either some sort of subscription or
advertisers, but that isn't really something that I'm worried about right now. I'm just trying to
get the content out there. And I think I told you before we started, it's like when you,
I stopped working for other people. When you work for other people, you worry about your reputation,
hurting them in some way, because, you know, like I own the things that I say, but that doesn't mean
my employers do. But right now I'm feeling very free to speak my mind. So. And you are doing just
that. And so you have no subscription service. So how they help you is share your content.
Go learn about, go to the website.
You know, guys, we have to,
this stuff has to proliferate in society.
I think people are now,
just by the state of the world,
what's going on with Iran
and everything else you talked about,
they're taking a step back,
a lot of the normies,
and they're saying,
whoa, what's going on here?
And you got to let them know, guys.
So please help promote someone like Matt
who works really hard, goes out of his way. Because I see you, man. You're out there. I'm out there. here and uh you got to let them know guys so please help promote someone like matt who goes
works really hard it goes out of his way because i i see you man you're out you're out there you're
out there you're out there i love it dude um uh kenton i'll kick it to you i know i've been talking
for a little bit i was matt just to kind of prepare for our podcast here a little bit of
googling and i i came across something did did you uncover a black male ring in dc or something like this
that was not me i i wish i i wish i i wish i did okay so this is just some weird artifact of
an example of why ai doesn't work then so okay so there's nothing there oh that'd be cancer too
i cured cancer right i got us off planet stopped the black blackmail ring. He is actually Elon Musk, by the way.
Well, so, okay, another question then.
I assume you're familiar with Eric Voorhees.
He was the one that showed me Bitcoin.
Okay, there you go.
And so I assume you're familiar with Venice, his AI project.
Yeah, I use it.
Okay.
It's not the only one that I use,
but I really support Venice.
I've been using it since he launched it, I think.
Okay, cool.
That's what I'm curious.
I assume you still,
you have the concerns about AI,
but I assume you still use it.
So I'm curious which ones you use.
How do you use it?
Do you have it locally?
And can you kind of walk through that whole thing because like
i'm i'm still using chat gbt and claude yeah and help me out here man get me uh help me get off it
there's no good answer right now which is the problem um so venice is a great answer i i use
uh venice if anytime i want i'm worried about like privacy and stuff. It does a lot of like general tasks for me and things that I just want to keep to myself.
But I'm, and it can't, so you can use Venice for, because Venice allows you to use pretty
much any different model, but you're just paying the AI prices for it, the API prices
for it.
So it acts at, like there's, there's inherent, you know, sort of free
models that are, there's some privacy and not, and there's image generation and video and all
sorts of stuff. It's really great. Anybody who's looking for like general all-purpose AI use
Venice because it's private and you're supporting, you're supporting a write-on person too, like Eric
Voorhees is, is philosophically write-on. So I would highly recommend people use Venice,
but I, um, I got, uh, I mean, open clause, like really the big thing in AI right now. And so I'm
doing a lot with open claw and Claude because, um, it's really the best partner that I've found
so far with, with those two. And that's what I'm
developing technology with right now. Like my app, which will come out in hopefully very soon.
I'm getting very close on that, but that's what I'm doing a lot with. The capabilities that OpenClaw
allows us to do is it's completely revolutionary. It basically gives OpenClaw root access to your
machine, which is why I have it on a separate machine. I do not have it on my local machine. It lives on its own machine. It's walled off,
but it allows you to put machines in place where it can do a number of tasks at once
for you without stopping. It gives you so much capability that we just didn't have before. So it's not security conscious. I wouldn't, you know, Claude,
I like working with Claude, but there's some problems with that company, just like there is
with ChatGPT and OpenAI has got NSA on their board. And, you know, there's problems with all
these companies, but until we get to the point of sovereign infrastructure where you can actually
have sovereign AI, we're kind of in a bind
if we want to use these tools.
So that's what I'm doing now.
I'm using a lot of like,
I'm just putting a lot of machines in place
with OpenCore and developing my app.
I'm not a developer.
I don't have that skillset,
but I am a really good prompter
and I've built apps before with AI.
So I'm working my way through that currently.
But yeah, the problem is really there is not a good solution.
Use Venice.
But with Venice, if you want to use really kick-ass models,
you pay the API price for it,
where Claude Max gives you a lot of tokens for 200 bucks a month.
So it's hard to, I would, if I were using API cost to develop my app, I'd be paying thousands
of dollars per month to do what I'm doing right now. So it's prohibitive, but, um, but yeah,
but that's the technology we need to aim for is, is, uh, is sovereign infrastructure. So we can
host our own. That's the other thing is you can, like right now, there's been a run.
So if you can run a local model on your machine
if your machine is powerful enough.
So with a Mac Studio 512 gigabyte,
like completely souped up Mac Studio,
which they're not selling anymore, by the way, it's gone.
You could run Kimimy i think it was like
2.6 or something which is really strong model local on your machine the trade-off is right now
if you don't have that type of machine you don't have that type of hardware firepower
uh then you're running just an inferior a still a good model but if you're trying to do something
super advanced like building a production grade app, you're not,
you're just not going to be able to do it. If you're a non-developer, if you can't do some of
that work yourself. So there's just trade-offs all around, uh, right now, but, um, but yeah,
but the models keep getting better. Like the locally hosting models keep getting smaller and
smaller. And so pretty soon we'll at least have the band with a power on, you know, on, on
infrastructure that we can purchase as individuals, uh, to be able to run local models, which will, which will certainly help a lot.
So, yeah, that's kind of what, that's kind of what I'm doing.
I use Venice for a lot for like my, like individual stuff.
But when I'm coding, not me coding, but coding, I'm using OpenClaw and Claw 4.6.
Yeah, I've been using mostly Claw lately.
To be honest, the stuff I'm doing, it can be as public as you want.
I'm not doing anything private, so I'm just using it.
It's not a big deal for me.
You're talking about having your own AI hosted locally.
I'm curious what you think of this.
If you've heard this theory before that basically people like kids,
like nowadays, you know,
kids are getting younger and younger when they get their first cell phone.
Right.
And so eventually kids are going to have their first,
their own local AI agent.
That's going to like, kind of like your email address, you're going to have,
you're going to have this AI agent for your whole life. It's going to grow up with you.
Yes. It's going to have all your data and this, your own personal AI agent is going to be
trained on your whole life's worth of data that you're going to have into an adult. And then,
do you believe that? Do you think that's the way we're going? Is there good or is there bad? What are your thoughts on all that?
Well, let's get to the optimistic side of things right now, because that's exactly what's going
to happen, which is why it's so important that it's on sovereign technology, so sovereign
hardware, and it is an AI that assumes our values because that's exactly what's going to happen is you're going to have your AI that is your partner in life.
I mean, your human partner, your wife, your spouse, whatever, and your family, that's obviously going to have primacy and be most important forever.
extension of you on hardware that you can trust, that you provably know shares your values,
that is helping you achieve, that is such a beautiful vision. That's how we coordinate
and solve. The sky's the limit with that. Just think about your health advocate knows everything
about you from a health standpoint you don't ever have to
be worried about the the medical establishment anymore if people weren't um weren't questioning
the medical establishment before covet i'm sure everybody is questioning it now like were these
guys real like i know so many i had to leave a doctor because they yeah i mean obviously they
were they were uh not on my side and so i had to seek out a doctor who was on my side. Like I want to find medical practitioners who share my values, but even if they don't, I've got my AI who knows everything about me, who is on my side, trying to make, looking out for me, looking out for my, my health and my longevity, who can decipher all that shit for me, who can help me figure out
what the best nutrition for me is based on my physiology, the best exercise for me,
the best learning tools and style for me so that I can grow and achieve.
Vocationally help me just be my partner in crime through life. That's such a, it's just such a beautiful thought because we can just be much larger now. You know what I mean?
We can, we can interact and we can create to a much hot, like if you, if you believe,
if you love consciousness and, and creative energy, this like spark that humanity has,
that nothing else that we know of has, maybe it's the
only one. I don't think so. I think there are other entities in the universe that have this too,
but for all we know, it's like this creative spark that makes us like our soul, whatever it is,
that makes us human, that makes us different than anything else that we know of. If you want to
extend that, then AI, your own sovereign AI that grows with you, that
knows everything about you, that shares your values, is the way to extend that further
into the universe.
So I believe that and want that badly.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's going to happen.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Go ahead, Danny.
You're fine.
It reminds me of, I think, with the great thing about AI, because we're going to need an AI, I think by necessity to safely interface with the world, which is just AI is everywhere. Right. But I think you're right. I think the empowerment, the level up enough where I had to go to the library and find a specific book
in the Dewey Decimal System
and I'm looking around.
That bandwidth between me trying to learn something
and me getting that knowledge is so slow.
But with AI tooling,
based on the sovereign principles
that you've spoken before,
this is incredible.
This is going to allow kids, like really young,
to just learn so much more quickly.
Those who are determined, of course.
I mean, you still need that spark of curiosity.
I think, honestly, some people are just born with it.
But I'm really, I try to keep white pill.
I am a white pill guy.
We get to that point.
I think humanity is going to the next step.
And I'm really looking forward to that.
I'm curious, Matt. you know, I'm assuming,
you know, Joel with Dash Community. Yeah. He's part of the same, you know, in New Hampshire.
He's going to BTC Las Vegas. I was curious, are you going to be able to go to BTC Las Vegas? Do
you know if that's in your cards? It's not. I mean, I hadn't even thought about it. I'm sort
of disconnected from crypto a little bit since I left my last gig in December.
I hadn't really thought much about it.
So no, I hadn't planned on going.
When is that happening?
It's April, was it April 27th, 28th, 29th.
I believe that's the whole thing.
But anyway, we're having a Thor chain meeting,
but it's really whoever wants to show up.
Joelle's gonna be there.
I just wanted to extend a personal invitation to you.
One of the things is, what's great when you find someone online
that just gets it, you know what I mean? Like you guys were going like it started great,
right? And it's still going great. But I really believe I tell people like we have to establish
that human connection. I think it's so important to actually meet people in real life because what
we're all collectively trying to do here is so important. Right. So I just hope if you can't make it no big deal but i hope one day to meet you in person because you
are an absolute rock star man and again i i don't i don't i'm not trying to kiss your ass i just
legitimately like thank you very much for everything you do and it's just it's it's so easy
because these conversations i can't have them with the average people in my life right this is my
escapism it's like talking to someone like who gets it, who understands what's going on. You're there with me, right? I'm not trying to make me
sound like a super genius, but there's just this knowledge gap with so many other people. So yeah,
man, if you go, doors open, man. And bring as many friends as you want, because I want to meet
them too. Thank you. That's kind. my you know unfortunately most of the people that uh my connections are in new hampshire i mean my wife is
a brazilian wife and and she survived with me we met in california when and i was out there for four
years but new hampshire's always been home as i mentioned but we spent about a decade there and
it just got to a point where she's like this winter matt and i'm like i know i know so we we came down south but oh my like come on i'm you could i know i'm waiting
winter oh well i mean i've definitely i've visited canada a lot i've uh from new hampshire
montreal's just a short hop i used to drive there not often but often enough i've probably been to
montreal 10 times i've been to toronto a few times people shit on Toronto but I like Toronto and well it's it's just
Aussie it's not can it's like the most un-Canadian yeah and it's real no it's
got a weird vibe to it I don't know how to explain it I've Quebec family too but
I've never gone up to Quebec City as much as I really want to but I for some
reason never got up there I haven't spent much time there but um but I've never gone up to Quebec City as much as I really want to but I for some reason never got up there I haven't spent much time there but um but I will
say for Toronto they got a great restaurant scene the food scene there is
great yeah I shouldn't yeah every city's got his thing but um yeah the winners
it's it's true yeah they just it just where especially if she's from Brazil
like it's that's it's just it's's just weird, especially if she's from Brazil.
It's fine to visit winter, but be stuck in it for six months.
It's just like, man.
It was the light for me.
We would be in November, and then everything is just,
New Hampshire is beautiful.
We had a place near the seacoast, but still in the woods,
but up against UNH College Woods.
So there were hundreds of acres behind my house, and we had trails know trails going through there so even in the winter i would walk through but
come november all the leaves are down and then the sun is just so low in the sky i started to
get pretty depressed about shit and i gotta tell you the sun makes a huge difference a huge difference
oh big time i moved to cayman um i stopped getting colds i don't get i don't get sick
anymore in canada i just get sick every three months i get a cold be sick yeah i think it's
just because you're sun deprived you don't get any vitamin d right are you in the caymans now
that's where you are do you not yeah living in cayman islands oh good for you all right see you
know yeah well it's funny i'm actually toying with moving back to the US.
It's just small.
It's just, it's too small.
And like, you know, you meant like, it's funny because the Liberty movement in the 90s and 2000s was all about getting out of the US and that, you know, it's going to, the empire
and the verge of collapse and all this kind of stuff, blah, blah.
After these last few years since covid
i'm like i actually think the u.s is the place to be and you mentioned the 350 million guns like
it's a good thing um you know a lot of these other countries have just they've shown their cards and
came in as one of them came in lockdown really hard like uh like melbourne australia lockdown
and um it was only for like a few months,
but it was a few months too many, right?
It's not one day too many, right?
So, you know, just I came here thinking
this is going to be kind of my place.
The rest of the world can burn and collapse
and I'll be fine here on this island.
But now it's pretty Western here,
pretty Westernized.
And like, you know, the government and populace showed their colors, so I'm kind of looking for a more freer place to spend more of my time.
it's a lot of settlers who were entrepreneurial.
So like, if you just think, I mean, my family comes from,
half my family comes from Italy.
The other half comes from France and Canada,
by way of Canada and Ireland.
And it's like, all these people were poor
and they were looking for a better life.
And they took a huge risk to sail across the fucking ocean
to come here.
And so you've got a lot of that lineage, too.
And even if that's not the story of a family in America, there's the spirit that just is part of our culture now of being entrepreneurial and independent.
And during COVID, as much like the state tried so hard
the biden administration tried so hard but i think a lesser uh culture would not have survived that
um but i mean they tried they tried everything like and just it didn't work like we we just
by year one you know by by like by like april like April, May, June of 2020, most people were like, this is not, this doesn't make any sense. Um, so yeah,
it gave me a lot of hope, but, but they'll try, they're going to try again.
I mean, keep trying. So yeah, yeah.
Let's go bring it on.
I've never liked, I've always had a, I don't know,
grudge or hate against doctors. Um,
well before COVID and COVID was just the final puzzle piece for me i can't stand doctors and like uh pardon well i was
gonna say there's a there was a bifurcation there right because i was well at the time and um the
thing is they promoted only the doctors that went with the state's narrative um and so it's a lot
of distortion like they had the nurses dancing and stuff like that like i don't even know who the hell these people were like
there was no one because you know i was in the medical industry was happening and um it dude we
were like what this doesn't even make sense like wearing a mask that's not like an n95 it's like
well that doesn't that doesn't protect you even if it isn't n95 right like viruses they love the
mucosal membranes of your if your scalera in your eyes you know this doesn't this isn't n95 right like viruses they love the mucosal membranes of your
if your fucking scolera in your eyes you know this doesn't this isn't stoop this is stupid
doesn't make any sense or those little paper masks it's like if a virus is so small that
you ever seen like those cargo nets and videos of war war ii like soldiers are climbing down
like imagine that's the fabrics of the mask right and a virus is like a tiny little like golf ball
right like it just goes
right through you're you see what i'm saying you just watch people in the winter and you just see
all the vapors going and it's like exactly like that one picture you're like okay yeah yeah but
you're but it's where i was going with it is like i i feel like a doctor the doctors as we know
understand them today are gonna be the first profession disrupted with AI.
And it can't happen fast enough for me.
Get rid of the idiot doctors and make room for the actual decent ones to flourish.
Okay, Matt, so I asked you about growing up with your own personal AI, and you said you have an optimistic and a pessimistic take, and you gave us your optimistic take.
What's your pessimistic take about it?
The pessimistic take is just that it leads to enslavement, of course.
So if you don't have sovereign infrastructure that allows you to have sovereign AI, then the value system of that AI is someone else's.
It can't ever be exclusively yours because you can't prove that it is.
So yeah, it's enslavement.
It's false reality.
It's serving entities that are not the individual.
And it's almost like indescribable how bad that can get
because it's just your life is no longer your own.
Imagine you have an AI teacher that is the public school version of the AI teacher.
Well, they're going to teach you a narrative.
And it's going to be the narrative that supports whoever's in power.
So the power infrastructure, which is the state.
So let's just say like the U S government teaches
right now in public schools, in government schools, a certain narrative that if you scrutinize it is,
is a perspective, but it's not the only perspective. And there's a lot that's not true
in it. So what would an AI teacher, you can, you can infuse the same thing, um,
can infuse the same thing. That to medical decisions to maybe it's your AI in a robot,
and it prevents you from doing stuff. It prevents you from going someplace. If you don't,
I don't know. It's the same problems with the CBDC, right? Or any sort of government-controlled
stablecoin or whatever token, they could just say,
okay, well, if you don't maintain a certain weight
or if you didn't get this shot or turn your money off,
or you can only eat a certain amount of protein
or steak or whatever.
No, you have to eat bugs or whatever.
Like they could just enforce that.
And you can do, now think of that with a robot.
Like, yes, it can enforce your movement too.
It's like you're now imprisoned in your house.
Like if a lockdown happens again,
some sort of scare happens.
You could just manufacture.
It could be real or not.
It could be a real like terrorist attack
or a false flag.
It doesn't matter what it is,
but it can just trap you in your homes.
I remember I was in New England
when the Boston Marathon bombing happened and the police like
shut down parts of of the suburbs of massachusetts like stay at home orders and shit and it's like
in one way you're like okay well you should go find the the bombers but another way it's like
while the government has that power imagine you know every family has a robot and it's not sovereign to them.
It's sovereign to the state or some other entity.
Like, well, if you don't want to be locked down, it doesn't really matter.
You're not going to overpower that robot.
So that's a dystopian view.
And that's what we're fighting against.
Like, we can't have that happen.
Like, we cannot.
Do you think that people building these robots building the ai
do you think they're consciously planning like to enslave humanity some are or they're like
they they are idealistic they think this is a great technology
yeah it could be used for bad but that's not our intention we want to use it for good
but then somebody else can come along and youurp it, get involved, and then start using it for bad? Or do you think the bad people are
there already? I was going to say, Denny, you should answer this first. 100%. There is an
element within our own government. I'm going to back up a little bit, Matt. I'm so glad how you
mentioned kids. I serve on a school board. That? And that's why I joined the school board, because I saw the writing on the wall,
they're going to go after children. And I'm a board member on a school board,
and I keep that bullshit away from them as best as I can, right?
Because if you get the next generation, then the country falls.
It's a demographics game, and it's an information game. And that is what they're doing.
Yes, 100%, there is an element. element these foreign lobbying groups we can get into that
if you want they are actively developing AI to subjugate the world 100% it's to approach their
own propaganda to distort history they want to modify everything that gives them leverages of
power this is the big arms race that's not guns it's AI and we're in the middle of that right now
but there are also people like Matt and you Kenton and many others and Eric
Voorhees that are working against that and so this is the great fight of our species it's a weird
thing like I always I always feel like I'm slightly narcissistic when I say this grandiose statement
like this is the fight of our species because this isn't the AI blockchain tech it's a new primitive
that has never existed before ever and so everyone who's alive right now,
like this is your struggle.
This is your fight.
This is the battle that will determine
where humanity goes from here.
And if you can't take a personal investment in that,
if you can't invest some time to help fight this battle,
then I don't know what you're doing.
I mean, think not only of yourself,
but your friends, your family, your kids,
you know, the future that they're going to have,
your kids' kids.
This is it. This is the battle, 100 future that they're going to have, your kids' kids, this is it.
This is the battle, 100%.
I'll kick it to you, Matt.
Yeah, but I agree.
And on the other end of it too,
if the technology is used for human prosperity,
then the sky's the limit in terms of what we can achieve.
Because all of this technology unwinds
all the negative aspects of the state too.
Sovereign money starves the state.
Sovereign AI means we don't have to go learn
from a source that we don't trust.
Sovereign robot means we have defensive force
against aggressive force.
These are all the things that unwind the state.
I actually have a, I thought a lot about this.
Like I don't, as much of an anarchist as I am, like I don't, I understand why the state happened.
Like at some point in human history, you need it, like as humanity went from like hunter-gatherer to having settlements to, you know, their spheres of influence and who they knew kept enlarging, enlarging.
You needed a way to figure out whether if you're interacting with people that aren't your family or your immediate friends,
you needed a way to figure out whether or not they were going to kill you, whether or not you could do business with them.
Are they going to poison me?
Are they going to, you know, I want to trade my cattle for this whatever, this food or milk for food or whatever.
this food or milk for food or whatever? How do I know this guy's not going to kill me? So you
How do I know this guy's not going to kill me?
didn't need, and the only technology that we had at the time was centralized. It was, okay,
let's get authorities in place who can vouch for these people. So government in general is like
this big vouching, this big like reputational thing. So I don't, I look at it as like, that's
what they had at the time. And a centralized way of doing it was a more efficient way of doing it.
It was the way that they could do it at the time.
And it gave peace of mind to people too.
It's like, oh, okay, I've got someone, some entity looking out for me so I could just take care of my family,
make sure my family's fed and everything's good.
But then, of course, there's all the negative consequences of that.
And even, you know, the U.S. government under the Constitution, the Bill of Rights,
when it was first enacted was the best that it could ever be because power begets power.
It's just going to become captured.
The people attracted to that power are going to be the psychopaths.
And over time, they're going to take over and just expand, expand, expand, which is where we are today.
But what unwinds all that is this technology.
So all the technology that they can use to enslave us is the same technology that we can use to beat them,
to unwind the state.
And that's how I think it happens.
Like I'm not a, you know, I'm a hardcore voluntarist.
I'm a hardcore anarchist.
But I don't think that protest works
and I don't think like armed resistance is gonna it's really gonna work it's
never worked yeah the way that we do it is we create a better system that people opt into and
it just makes the state obsolescent and this is these are the technologies that that will do it
um so i just want to respond to that but and then ken just to answer your question
i think they like i don't trust the value system of Sam Altman or OpenAI.
I don't trust the value system.
I mean, I'd like to work with Claude, but I don't trust their value systems.
And Elon Musk, I don't.
He was very concerned about AI for a long time, but now he built his own because he knew he needed to infuse his own morality into it.
Because, of course, he trusts himself more than he trusts anybody else.
I don't trust Elon's value.
I mean, I don't, you know,
forever trust Elon's value system.
I trust to a certain extent
to do certain things,
but not like with my life.
Well, that's the thing with Elon.
Like, he is right
that AI is going to be taught
to be maximally curious.
Yeah.
I agree with that completely.
That is how we build a neutral AI that will embrace humanity.
So he says like a lot of like really smart things that I really agree with.
But then I'm like, wait a second.
If he owns all these, you know what I mean?
Then I started, you know, they start peeling back the onion.
I'm like, well, just because he's saying what I want to hear
doesn't necessarily mean we're going to have the good outcome.
It's the same thing I said before.
If something can be captured, it will be captured.
It's just the way that it is.
I cannot infuse my value system into Grok.
I cannot do it.
I can't say, no, you will, whenever you interact with me
or on my behalf, you will know that I believe in the non-aggression principle
and here is the proof of the non-aggression principle.
And so every time we're out in the world
and we're interacting together,
you have to keep that in mind.
It won't listen to, I mean, to a certain extent,
like it could create content with that as like my profile,
but it's not gonna own it as its own primitive.
So I think there
are definitely some out there who are like the world is gonna go this way i think it's more like
the world's gonna go this way and we need to infuse our values into it because we don't trust
the other people's values but those there's like sam outman's value sucks like i don't just like i
wouldn't want um any of the big like the Silicon Valley has done a lot for humanity in terms of technology.
But from a philosophical standpoint, they've been found wanting, you know, just look at what social media did during the lockdowns.
It's like until Elon bought X, you had every single platform was censoring anybody who was telling the truth.
anybody who was telling the truth.
So it's so blown my mind how like, like big tech, you know,
these smart developers in San Francisco, how they're like, how, how,
how are they not voluntarious as well? You know,
a lot of them are pretty, very political. Like they're quite,
some are quite fascist. And it's, I don't, I don't, in my mind,
Austrian economics is just, it's just simple logic. And,
and you think a developer who writes code,
you have to be a very logical person to be able to write computer code.
I don't understand why they don't get it.
And back to AI being, if you can have an AI that is maximally curious,
I assume they would discover Austrian economics
and would just be like, oh yeah, this obviously works this makes sense
there's here's a historical record like it's
This is the right way, you know, we don't even necessarily have to tell it about that
It'll just be like yeah, of course just like me and you meeting each other for the first time like you
You found it on your own. I found it on my own. We're like, yeah, we of course it of course. That's the answer
And I guess I'm assuming we're right,
which is maybe arrogant to say.
You are both right 100%.
So says I.
I think the problem is smart people
think they can control everything.
And unfortunately, when you look at Austrian economics
or capitalism or voluntarism, it can be messy.
It's the best way because it's the freest way.
It's the way that, you know, two ways of goods and services, as I mentioned before, it's like
you can steal from people and give to other people, or you can let markets happen and you
voluntarily interact. Those are the two ways to distribute goods and services. And so
all supreme AI might think, well, I can control the market. I can understand all the market signals and I can
control it all. And maybe they might be, do a more efficient job than capitalism or markets would do,
but at the cost of enslavement, I think that a lot of the smart Silicon Valley people and even
Vitalik, like honestly, like I think they've kind of fallen to the same thing where they
think that they're, they're smart enough to be able to control some things that they really can't.
And they don't understand the cost
or they do understand the cost,
but it doesn't matter to them as much.
I mean, I have the same issues with like
where the Ethereum foundation went and I would have,
yeah, because early Bitcoin were all the voluntarists.
They were all the people who believed in self-sovereignty.
And then Ethereum really introduced a movement that went past that.
They didn't share those same ideals.
I love Ethereum.
It's the best coordinating tool that we have right now.
But I don't love where it's gone.
And I think that's...
Yeah, I think it's an issue.
And so it's just another example to me
of whose value systems do I want to trust?
I'm going to add a little to that.
So speaking about Ethereum a little bit,
I'm sure you've noticed that some USDT, USDC wallets
have been frozen with their stable coin, their balances.
Could you give your opinion on
that could you break that down a little bit i just don't think you can like you have to know the the
you have to know what you're getting into it's like if you know that a tool can be censored then
it's you're taking that risk so you're risking um you know using you're risking using for uh for
convenience you're using a certain tool,
but you have to know the other risk that if it, if it can be censored, it will be censored. So
I think, um, as long as everybody's aware of that, then entrepreneurs are free to make those tools.
Um, I would prefer to have tools that cannot be censored and that I'm not subject to, but, you know, I mean, I,
like there's a philosophy there. If you want to be philosophically consistent, then you can't have
the, you can't have, if you want sovereignty, you can't allow it to be censored. That's just the way
it is. I, you know, something I think about is, um, I'm wondering, I'm coming to the opinion that
I think, cause a lot of people want to make an algorithmic stable coin, right?
That's decentralized, permissionless,
but I'm becoming to the opinion, I think,
maybe I'm wrong, that it might not be possible
because the first principles are incorrect
because it's based on fiat,
which is, you know, they print it into existence.
There is no strong foundation for that.
Maybe you can have an over-collateralized stablecoin,
you know, something like that.
That might have something there.
But I'm just, I'm wondering if that,
it's difficult to explain my thought process here,
but the stablecoins themselves are kind of the issue.
And what do you, what would you like,
if you had a magic wand, Matt, right?
What would you like to see blockchain tech do?
If you could just weigh this magic wand and change these underlying first principles, these conditions,
what would you like to see happen maybe overnight?
I mean, yeah, I think we wouldn't price things in dollars.
It's like, you know, we're giving up ground there
when we price things in dollars,
which means stable coin.
And I understand like,
it's a good way to onboard people into the technology,
but it sets the wrong precedent
from a philosophical standpoint.
I still have a lot of problems where Bitcoin is gone.
It's not digital cash.
It was promised in the white paper,
like Satoshi's white paper is like one of the most,
like just elegant things. Like to create this thing is like genius. It's crazy. It makes me
emotional. It's like reading the Declaration of Independence. You're like, fuck yeah.
And it's not that anymore, but still it's probably the most decentralized.
I mean, probably the most sovereign of the block of the crypto right now, I imagine. I don't know.
most sovereign of the block of the crypto crypto right now i imagine i don't know um so i would
not want to price i yeah i i just would be but it's all the shit's a trade-off it's like what
do you want do you want sovereignty or do you want do you want to onboard people do you want
number go up um and i can understand the argument for both people a lot of people got into ethereum
because they're like number because they wanted the money they wanted the money which is fine i
understand that it's not why I got into it.
Doesn't mean that everybody needs to follow my lead.
But yeah, I say you're giving up ground
if you're pricing things in dollars.
And if you have stable coins,
something that's, we need to break away from that system.
So, but that is a long-term fight to do.
For sure, for sure. Kenton, I'll kick it to you if you got something you-term fight to do. For sure, for sure.
Kenton, I'll kick it to you
if you've got something you want to add to this.
Yeah, I think everyone's obsession,
this is my opinion,
just kind of the way I see it going
is I feel like it's just kind of like perpetual emotion,
like this idea that we can have a stable coin
that's uncensorable.
I don't think it's possible.
And it's kind of like breaking up with your girlfriend and still wanting to sleep together. Okay, it might work for a while,
but it just doesn't work. You have to cut it off. And so if we want to break up with fiat money,
we have to cut it off. We just have to move forward and we have our algorithmic
currency it's called bitcoin right and and like matt said you know we gotta just start pricing
stuff in bitcoin right and like we so you know what's gonna what's the tipping point what's
gonna get us there um so i didn't have time to read that um Oh, sorry. But in my mind, the obsession with this stablecoin is like,
it just holds us back from the real Bitcoin standard.
And kind of like, again, using a girlfriend analogy,
find you're broken up, you're still fooling around.
All it's doing is preventing you from finding your future wife, right?
Finding that one you do want to spend time with, right?
So we got to break up with the dollar. And this is what's called Joel, we mentioned earlier from
Dash. He's been living on crypto apparently now for 10 years. Since I've known him, right? Yeah.
So like, we got to become Joels, right? That's how we're gonna like, get things going.
That's a man who's lived his values for sure yes 100 mad respect yeah like i
i can acknowledge i'm a bit of a hypocrite on a lot of things like this um but um um
let's just say i do think if i can ask your your question denny what would kenton change overnight
one thing we got to start uh pricing bitcoin in sats We got to get away from this one Bitcoin is 170 grand,
whatever, and start pricing it in sats. Because it's true with the average person,
they hear $70,000 Bitcoin, well, that's expensive. And there's a reason penny stocks are penny stocks and they have these like really high share amounts and low share prices because it gets the average person and more normie, the more kind of lowest common denominator amongst us interested because they see it's cheap.
cheap. And so I think we got to start getting thing, you know, we got to start pricing Bitcoin
and sats. And that'll help with help further with adoption and get more people into it.
Yeah. And I think so. How do you get there? Right. Because we want to do that. But, you know,
for me, the transition happens when we build something that the ordinary person can use.
Right. And this is why I'm excited about technologies that are building on top of, like Bior Labs, Mocha,
where you can actually buy goods and services
by using decentralized equity pools
as that medium of exchange.
You can have the value in dollars,
you can have them in Litecoin, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever.
But the point is you can use whatever currency
you have on you to buy things,
of course, asset that is supported.
But when someone can go into a store,
buy a good and service with
whatever they want whatever token they have on their phone i think that's when now what what we
all rally uh around as in the maybe it's sats maybe something i don't know but i think that's
we have to build utility here we have assistant our system's better now it has to be useful
and once we do there i think it it's all from there. This actually kind of dovetails in a question I want to ask you, Matt,
is that I'm curious, you know, there's all this talk about AI agents using crypto.
And I'm thinking, I'm wondering, what if that's the real push,
you know, that we get kind of mass adoption of crypto?
It isn't actually humans, but it's actually the bots, the AIs.
I'm curious what your
thoughts are on that, about AI using crypto and what you think. Yeah, it's the way. I mean,
it's the only thing that's frictionless enough to be able to work that fast. So it is, I mean,
it's the currency of AI for sure. Which one? Who knows? But that will absolutely start to happen, which is, again,
a reason why sovereign technology is so important, because you need to know that your AI is only
going to do business with other AIs of a certain caliber who has a certain value system or does
certain things that you can trust. So again, that's going to make a, like, you want to be
able to block your AI from doing transactions on your behalf with another AI that's adversarial to you.
So that's going to be so important.
But I, for sure, crypto was, I mean, like, it's, yeah, it's made for, for this type of work to be done.
that tickles me is like an autonomous Tesla gets to do its own ride share, you know, get paid in
crypto and goes and orders its part repairs when it when it needs to on its own and just gets to
have this existence sort of serving humanity all it's on its own. And it takes AI and it takes
crypto to make all that that happen and work. But yeah, I think that this is,
you're gonna start seeing agent to agent stuff.
That's gonna happen, like very soon,
it's gonna happen, it's gonna be ubiquitous.
And that would help keep AI and these bots in check
because they can't print crypto out of thin air.
It's true.
Right, they're gonna have limited Bitcoin, whatever,
and they have to access it,
they can only acquire it voluntarily through trade right so
you know when we don't have this unlimited money printer you know funding the this these bots um
that should help at least if an ai is going if they do go rogue they're going to run out of
resources pretty fast i would think in theory because they there's only so much crypto they have to spend that's right um so yeah as long as maybe they'll hack the the mexican government again or something okay
um but you're right i mean you can't steal from someone's crypto wallet so yeah
yeah no i think that's uh i think yeah i think you're right I think that's, I think, yeah, I think you're right.
I think that's going to be a huge onboard for crypto here.
Very soon.
I mean, you're starting to see,
it's just sort of cute and clunky right now,
how agents are interacting with each other.
You had that, can't remember what it was,
the social media, I didn't even look,
but the social media site, it just seemed,
it's just funny.
Oh, for claw bots?
Yeah.
Modclaw or something?
Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's another thing that popped up just seemed it's just fun it's funny oh for claw bots the mod mod mod claw or something something
like that yeah yeah and then there's um there's another thing that that popped up that was funny
which was uh agents but who need humans to go do stuff for them in the physical world which
i signed up for under uh uh like a you know throw away email because i just want to see what it was
but um it's just kind of funny how it's it's very clunky how it's all
working right now but that's going to get smoothed out here real quick oh yeah well it's like um
remember that the will smith ai video that came out a few years ago like oh god spaghetti and
stuff and yeah yeah everyone's like oh this is stupid i mean god it's only a couple years
and look at the quality of videos now like holy smokes um but you mentioned that ai is paying humans to do stuff
in meat space have you guys seen the movie gamer with uh gerard butler long time ago uh was man
it just i don't like i don't like horror movies and the stuff like that i get i get gross you
know just freaks me out yeah and that movie gave me the ick because it was like,
it wasn't like a horror, but it just,
it really highlighted the really dark side of humanity.
And so if someone hasn't seen it,
this is a bit of a spoiler alert,
but basically it was humans controlling other humans
in like a SimCity kind of type environment.
And it was basically humans
who are like um they need to work right they're poor whatever and they basically are prostituting
themselves to be controlled by other humans who will use their bodies like like a like a character
in a video game and they just run around do crazy weird stuff and um and of course it's just all the
humans that are controlling this video controller the video game controllers are just using these
other humans to do despicable gross things and um it's just uh just the movies i think about it
just gives me the heebie-jeebies because because i believe it i think if that existed that most humans would use
other humans like that i actually believe that that's i hope not i hope dude i look at covid i
mean like how many people were just celebrating lockdowns and like you're disgusting if you don't
get vaccinated all kind of stuff like man the everyone's inner Nazi really came out. And I'm like, this wasn't a small subset of society.
This was like a solid 30, 40% of people.
And maybe even, you know, for a brief period, maybe a majority.
And then those people in the middle have maybe changed their minds.
But I still think there's probably a good 25% of people
who still think they're right about COVID.
And anyway,
but bringing us back to AI is that like,
what if AI is having control of these humans and doing these weird,
crazy has no value system. Like you mentioned, it's got a, or it's got a messed up value system and somehow it's controlling these humans
to do stuff. Uh, just like, yeah. I mean, that's why, you know,
defensive technologies are so important for us
it just it prevents our enslavement and that's why yeah it's so important that we're that we're
working on this right now we i really do think it's like this next five years is extremely critical
because i've just so i've been working you know initially with ai i was actually so musician too
you can find my music on spotify or whatever just search my name. But one of my, like one of my last releases were in like 2023. And one of
my songs was like very, very afraid of AI at the time. And I was just thinking of what,
what it would look like when I wrote the song. And it's not as dorky as it sounds. It's a good
song. But, but I've come a long way. Like, but my initial thought was like, this is a tool for
enslavement because all it really needs to do is just give us a false reality.
Like, it just needs to take over our information sphere.
We see things in the lens that they give us.
And we're really fucked.
But AI at the time was not very...
I mean, that was like GPT, I don't know, 3 or something at the time.
It was crazy what it could do.
But still, how far it's come in the next...
I can't even describe what I think AI is going to be able to do in five years from now.
Like it's a whole different world.
So the time, that's why I just think this is the inflection points.
Like the time is now to work on this stuff, uh, to make it happen.
And we have the tools.
We just need to just need to do it.
Do you follow, uh follow Brian Romel?
Oh yeah, Romeli.
I love him. He's such a cool guy.
If you guys don't follow him on Twitter, you can follow me.
He's a real...
You can tell he's a real positive guy.
A real positive vibe.
But he's a real futurist.
And he's been tweeting about 5,000 days.
Yep.
Do you know what he's talking about?
What is this?
So I do subscribe to his website, but I'm behind because he writes these super in-depth, very detailed articles, and I'm behind on that.
So I don't know what this is.
He taught me a lot about AI, like, um, how you interact with it,
how you teach it. Like I, so I have an education degree. So I like kind of naturally think about
how people learn. It's just sort of how I was trained and which I think honestly gives me an
advantage when dealing with AI. Cause that's the way that I approach it. I teach it all about the
thing that I'm trying to do and learn from it. It's a back
and forth, but I feel like I get a way better result from doing it that way. And that's a lot
of Romilly helped me think through that as well, like how I designed my early prompting with AI.
But no, he's awesome. Yeah. And he's been dumpster diving for decades to save all these old like
tapes and recordings and books and all this kind of stuff. And so that we don't lose that history
of humanity. And he's training his AI and all this old stuff. Right. And like, it's really
interesting when you think about it, because like, how much of our stuff is more and more going onto the cloud, more and more online.
It's like I saw a post the other day, someone talking about, you know, once we lose our subscription to Spotify, all that music is gone.
I don't have any.
I got rid of all my CDs, my tapes.
I don't have any records.
Like think about a nuclear holocaust.
All of that music that we love is gone.
Right. And so it's the same with our history. Think about a nuclear holocaust. All of that music that we love is gone, right?
And so it's the same with our history and the way we did things in the past, right?
AI is only being trained on the last, what, 15 years, maybe 20 years of human stuff.
But there's a whole thousands of years of history before that.
So it's pretty cool what he's doing and um
yeah i think it's 5 000 days it's something like like what you said we've only got this short window
before ai and robots completely change everything like um and within that window we've got to do x y and z or something something. And I'm not quite sure exactly what he thinks we need to do.
But yeah.
Let's get him on the show.
Let's ask him.
Oh, you should.
I mean, yeah, he's fantastic.
He's a brilliant dude.
And he surfaced a problem that I never thought about before,
but everybody should have, which is exactly this.
We have a lot of collective knowledge.
Some of that is coming to light now where, you know, if you think about like the Graham
Hancock stuff and advanced civilizations before. Dude, I see the box. This is amazing. I just
came across this in the last like last year. Oh, geez. Dude. I mean, I've been listening to him
on Rogan for years. The guy is it's crazy to think about, but you just think of if there were like, there's a, a lot of evidence that there was
advanced civilizations prior to the last ice age. So 14, 15,000 years ago. And, um, and that's all
gone. And think, but think about what, if there was some sort of cataclysmic event, if it happened
now a hundred years or 200 or 300, what would be left of us, all the technology would be gone.
So a thousand years from now, people would be left of us, all the technology would be gone. So a thousand years
from now, people would be like digging through, like trying to excavate and see what we were all
about. None of this stuff would survive. It would all just get, you know, it would just all go into
the void. So Romilly is definitely surfacing this issue where we have all of this knowledge,
even from the last hundred years that we've recorded either on audio, video, whatever, old commercials, even that people are like, who's saving that stuff? The, the people who originally broadcast it? Well, they're a lot of them are gone. So, um, he exactly, he's been getting all that, that, um, getting all those hard copies and digitizing it so that, and trading ai off it so that we don't lose that that
that wisdom and knowledge that we had yeah pretty cool romilly that's how you say his last name i
think that is brian romilly yeah romilly romilly okay cool yeah he's he's awesome yeah we got uh
uh we got a question yeah i'll put up here with the code. Does Matt follow Jeff Berwick?
Do you know who that is?
I know that the name sounds familiar.
He's in ANCAP.
He's got Dollar Vigilante.
He's in Puerto Varda.
No, Acapulco.
And he does Anarcho Polco.
This guy?
Maybe I know.
Maybe I follow him.
I'd have to check and look it out.
Founder of Dollar Vigilante?
The name, that all sounds familiar. I'd have to check and look it out. Founder of Dollar Vigilante? That all sounds familiar.
He's in ANCAP.
He's been in the
self-proclaimed, and he started
anarcho-proclaimed. He's been in the
liberty movement now for...
I don't think I ever met him.
His name sounds very familiar to me, but I don't think
we've ever met.
Why did you ask do you like Coke?
Why did you ask that question, Coke?
Why are you?
Because he wants them to know each other.
I'd love to know.
Any liberty-friendly person, I'd love to know.
Absolutely.
This is why I'm so glad we're doing this.
You know what I mean?
Get that relationship established.
This has been such a fun conversation, you guys. It's effortless to talk with you know just and man this is this has been such a fun
conversation you guys i just it's effortless to talk with you matt it really is i mean when you're
when you know all the things it's just and you're teaching me things as well very interesting
your base of experience what you derive from and uh i've definitely been checking out your website
man super cool thanks um because it's it's you know for me because i'm a thore chain educator
like my focus is just so
Thorchain oriented, you know what I mean? Because I was in politics, I was trying to do both an
unbelievably exhausting time, right? I'm completely out of politics now. I'm just so
burnt out. I don't care. Now my sole focus is to get the first principles in line, fix society,
the economics, right? That's my entire goal right now. So I really appreciate someone like yourself
who's able to pay attention to this and keep me up to speed, because I deem you as a highly reputable source. You know,
I mean, right many people that I would just believe off the cuff, but you've proven that
you just you're a fair and free thinker. And that's so important. You know what I mean? Like,
I wish that was more common, right? People have this desire, this emotional, like this narcissism
where they never want to admit they're wrong or they don't strive for accuracy.
They just strive to win, you know, the the linguistic war. Right. And that's so annoying to me.
So I just love people who want to increase their approximation to truth. Right.
And and not so much the social hierarchy of where they stand. It's OK to be wrong.
It's I've been wrong many times in my life. And it's only made me a better person when I was incorrect, right?
Thanks for saying that, Denny. I mean, I gravitate towards people who are earnest.
I know that I'm wrong and can be wrong, but I value people like Dave Smith, of course,
I listen to, and Tom Woods and a lot of other great libertarians out there because I believe that they are telling me what they think, what they actually believe.
And that earnestness is super important.
And so that's what I try to do as well.
I'm sure I'm wrong, but I just try to tell what I, what, what I actually believe. And yeah. And we need that because once you peel back the leave,
everybody's seen the montage of all all corporate media parroting the same
thing over and over. Once you see that, you're like, Oh Jesus,
that's all controlled. Like that's just all a script.
Yeah.
And you're seeing that a lot with like the,
the conservative influencers right now too.
It's just they're parroting all the same stuff.
And then it's been uncovered that they've been paid and all sorts of crazy stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, you just you just try.
I think most humans want.
Want to talk to or be around or listen to people that they think are earnest.
So it's just so important.
That shows the sorry, Kenton, that's the white pill, right? Because what happened, uh, just a few years ago, maybe less
than 10 years, podcasts took off, right? Like before no one would have believed that people
would sit around and watch a Joe Rogan conversation for three or four hours. No people, if he became
one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, because people just want accurate
information. I think that's the big white pill. People know they're being lied to.
Yeah, they want accurate, honest.
They just want to hear a genuine conversation.
They're tired of this controlled,
soundbite fricking world that we've lived in
for the past 40 years or 50 or 60 years,
whatever it is.
They just want real talk, real conversation.
There's something inside of us.
Like you, Matt, like when you speak and Kenton, when kenton speaks i know it's coming from a position of earnestness
and truthfulness and it's something i can't logically explain i just feel it like you like
you we all have like most of us anyway have this internal sociopath detector where they say
something where maybe their their intonation in their voice so they're you know they're they're
like there's there's an incongruency there and you're like,
what's going on, right? I don't get that at all
with you guys. And that's why I think Joe
Rogan and other people have really done well.
So I think
I'm bullish on humanity. We got some work to do,
but I'm bullish. Yeah, agreed.
I was chatting with a friend
yesterday who's relatively new to crypto
last year.
And she's talking about you're going to a conference
and talking to people and it's like what if someone's from a project and they go on from
this project and i'm like i've never heard of it but they you know it's like ethereum you know they
should she should know about it type deal right and she's gonna feel stupid she's like maybe i
shouldn't say anything which i said i'm like well just don't feel bad like it's worse is I've been with ThorChain talking to,
trying to go do stuff for ThorChain.
And someone's like, oh yeah, I've been following ThorChain for a long time,
blah, blah, blah, I love what you guys are doing.
I'm like, oh really?
I'm like, what about this and that?
And they just, and blank stares.
And I'm like, well, I can tell then they're lying to me
because they don't know anything going on with ThorChain.
And it's way worse.
You can fix being wrong about something but you can't fix poor character and as soon as you
Show somebody that you're lying or making something up and you instantly show you have poor character
There's no fixing that. You know if you come back to my friend if she
going back to my friend if she you know says oh i've never heard of tether okay well she might
You know says oh, I've never heard of tether
look silly but at least she's she's showing her character that she's honest which is you which is
way more important right so um um and that's exactly what you know but that's why i kind of
started to kind of correct you denny about rogan about he gets stuff wrong too we all do but at
least we're being honest you know we're we're we're
there's no other agenda we're like this is honestly what we think and feel and and believe
we could be wrong but we're not making stuff up we're not lying right we're not uh we're telling
it how we see it um which is which is exactly it i think that's what we all want we all expect it
we all know no one's perfect none of us are right. But as long as you're not lying about it. Right?
Right. Yes. So it's uncomfortable. It's definitely uncomfortable to be wrong, especially publicly wrong. But once you sort of recognize that the humanity sort of base position is impoverished, but also is ignorant. It's like you can't know everything. You're not going to know everything. So you're, we're all, we're all just learning and trying to figure it out. And if you're new
to a community, we're asking a lot of dumb questions, but most people like, are like,
I'm happy, like are happy, especially in crypto. If it's a fill, if you're in it,
if you approach someone who's philosophically in crypto philosophically for philosophical reasons,
you're happy to have new people come in and have conversations about it you're happy it's fine that they're ignorant about they just
want to learn so it gives you some humility when you realize that you're like oh yeah no we just
were all we were all born stupid like we just don't we don't just don't know anything we have
to discover it there might be something wrong with my brain but i don't really have like i don't care
about social hierarchies and i legitimately don't care what people think of me like i swear to god i just say words and hope for the best i
do not care and i get excited actually when someone corrects me because if i'm holding on
to a false premise or an idea false belief system that is um that is harmful to me right so if
someone corrects me then i just leveled up and i think what people don't understand that is like
you want
to be corrected. And even if it's maybe it's embarrassing for you, like, so what? Like people
have the intention span of a bird, like they're going to forget. And then you're going to level
up. I mean, that is such a deterrent for personal growth. People, they want to like turtle in and
just like negative feedback loop into their own ignorance because they don't want to risk looking
stupid. It's like, what is going on? you know you're hurting yourself really you you matt you mentioned um you
know nobody wants to make a mistake in public like i've done i've said some things in thor chain
that were wrong and one of the a moderator a community member of thor chain his name sam yap
he'll correct me and like publicly correct me But I take it as a sign of respect because
that he, I think he respects me. He knows that I'm not taking offense to it, that it's, we're just,
you know, just correcting like an error in facts, which is awesome. Right. I want that. But what
could be, it's like having something in your teeth and no, you know, none of your friends
are telling you about it. It's like, thanks guys. Like, come on, like, you know teeth and no you know what none of your friends are telling you about it it's like thanks guys like come on true like you know so you know i love it when when sam
corrects me because like yeah obviously my intention is to be i want to be correct i don't
want to be wrong and thanks for pointing it out that i was wrong and um i think this is such a
healthy positive environment to be in when we can all we can feel safe to be wrong and we can feel
safe to correct somebody without them being offended by it. Um, yeah, that's a gift that
you both have though. I mean, that's great. I aspire to be as comfortable being, being in that
position as you are. I don't know that I always take it well, but, uh, but no, that's the way it
But no, that's the way it should be.
should be. You're exactly right. Well, I'll be honest. My first, you know, my ego is like,
You're exactly right.
Well, I'll be honest.
My first, you know, my ego is like, oh, you know, you're embarrassed.
Damn it.
But, you know, that's my, we choose how we react to things, right?
And that's, you know.
It's true.
I can catch that.
I'm reacting the wrong way.
And I'm like, okay, then I realize this is good.
So I'm human too.
I still feel embarrassment.
That's the Viktor Frankl, right?
Like our choice is really the, the,
the space between some sort of impulse and our reaction to it.
That's where our power is. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Well, yeah. Shout out to Sam. Yeah. He's, he's a great community member.
He's definitely, he's on the right side of history.
He is. I love that man. I have a small, I have a small story real quick.
I got to say it
because you mentioned the teeth thing, Kenton. And I know you're talking about, it's like when
you're eating and you have like a little piece of speck of pepper on your tooth, like one speck,
one black speck of pepper makes you look like a diseased, like mongrel person. Like you just look
horrendous. And so I was in, uh, I was in surgery, right. With the doctor, she was doing it. And,
um, we got done with the surgery.
She pulled down her mask and we're talking.
And she was going to go talk to a client.
And then she had that one speck of pepper.
I'm like, hey, you got a piece of pepper.
And she looks like, oh, my God, thank you.
And then she took a surgical line, three-aughts, what we call.
And she cut the surgical line.
And she used it as floss to get the pepper out of her mouth.
You know what I mean?
But exactly, right?
That's what it right. That's,
that's what it is. It's all about error correction. And it's like, even if you believe something
incorrect, like, like someone, like if I did something incorrect for 30 years and someone
told me, it's like, you can either a be mad at yourself. Like, Oh my God, I did the wrong thing
for 30 years. Or you can say, thank God I finally figured it out. And now I don't do that that way
anymore. Right. But go ahead, Kenton. I interrupted you.
I did.
I had to say that.
That was great.
I was just going to say,
you know,
we're coming up on two hours here and Matt,
I know.
Is there anything that you want to touch on?
You want to talk about that we haven't got into that you'd,
you'd like to.
I mean,
we can talk about anything forever,
but no,
I think,
I think this is a great conversation and I'm very glad that we,
we got to,
we got to have it.
Thanks for having me on.
Thank you for coming.
Great, great meeting you and chatting with you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Love to do this again sometime.
Meet you in real life one day.
Yeah.
I really, yeah.
I hope we can meet you in real life.
We got to do that.
We got to form that human connection.
Cause even if we have the best conversation right here, there's that distance and there's
nothing like meeting someone in the hand, like shaking their hand, maybe hug sharing a drink it's that human connection we've got to go with
that so um with that being said guys you okay do you think we should wrap this up here what do you
guys say sure i think so yeah okay guys um you guys this has been an amazing amazing live stream
i'm gonna do it one more time you you guys. Brave the new dot world.
Brave the new dot world. Matt Carreno. I believe that's how you pronounce the last name.
Amazing guy, guys. You guys, please follow him on all the social media. Check out his music,
by the way. He's a musician. We didn't even touch that, but now I have to check that after this is
done. That's frigging cool. You know what I mean? Guys, follow the information. He does not charge
a subscription service, so there's no reason not to help us share this information.
We're all on the same team here. We all have to work together to make this world a better place.
And that's what we're going to do guys. Uh, next Saturday, we're going to be talking with
Mark Jeffrey. Um, he is the hash break podcast. I've interacted with him a little on social media.
I'm really looking forward to talk to him.
And then the following week, we have Hassam, Be Your Labs, and then Sal Agorist.
I'm looking forward, really looking forward to talk to him too.
You know what Agorism is, right, Matt, I assume?
Of course.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to talking to Sal because, again,
Agorism is one of those things where, like, you know you're deep into it. You know you're well-read if you understand Agorism.
So looking forward to that one.
Sorry, Denny.
No, no, dude.
I'm glad you said that.
Absolutely.
So guys, please, again, follow, follow Matt.
And Matt, hey, if you ever got something going on,
you want to do this again, you are welcome anytime, buddy.
Awesome.
We'd love to.
Yeah.
All right, guys.
Thanks, everyone.
Absolutely.
Everyone enjoy the rest of your weekend.
We all love you. Take care now. Bye-bye.
