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Memecoin Insider Trading & Scandals 🤯 The Aggregated Ep. 118
Recorded: June 20, 2025 Duration: 3:08:42Space Recording
Short Summary
In a lively discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the latest trends in token launches, partnerships, and growth opportunities within the DeFi space, while also addressing the challenges of declining user activity and the importance of community engagement in fostering sustainable projects.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Hey, hey, hey, what's up everybody?
What's up?
Hello.
Hello.
How are you doing, DeFi granddad?
Doing great.
Actually doing a lot of DeFi granddad stuff.
Building products.
Things are moving.
Even though market is quite tough right now,
the things are going really good.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Beat happening, how are you?
Hello, sir.
I'm doing wonderful.
I was just swimming in a gorgeous
lake, and I got up right
on time, so I cannot complain.
Nice. Very nice. Did you mean to be swimming or did your car jump whirl? No, I was cut, I was taking a shortcut to get to my phone on time.
Sacrificing. Self-sacrificing
for the spaces
as I promised
no song
no intro song
Panda
no Richard just started speaking
and then we rolled from there
oh okay
do you have more songs now
yeah well I mean I'll see if this actually works from there. Oh, okay. Do you have more songs now?
Yeah, well, I mean,
I'll see if this actually works because I played with the sounds a minute ago.
I'd rather just hear your voice.
Like, why don't you just sing one like...
La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
There you go.
Start saying various Scottish phrases
that no one understands.
What is the weirdest
Scottish words you know, Darren?
That if you said it, we could not guess it.
Oh, I've been a can.
Dinner can.
Does that mean
plate?
I, D-I-N-N-Y
and then can,
which is no, so it means I don't know.
I've been a can.
Okay, so I don't know. and then he can so okay so i don't know
that's weird that makes no sense
then he can what does it come from hey i don't know i don't know i don't i do not can
yeah i don't know i mean like 10 minutes down Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, ten minutes down the road,
the word Barry is interchangeable for the word good.
So if you think something is good, they just say it's Barry.
Barry.
Right, I'm going to play music now, if this works.
Yes. yes louder there louder
you gotta pump it.
Pump it, pump it, you gotta pump it.
Yeah.
ZKEVM is Ethereum.
ZKEVM is Ethereum.
ZKEVM is Ethereum.
ZKEVM is Ethereum. pump it you gotta pump it pump it pump it you gotta pump it pump it you gotta pump it you
you got
you got
you got pump it pump you gotta pump pump you gotta pump
good morning hola buenos dias
or tardes yep or uh or noche depending on where in the world you are yeah TARDIS. Yep. Or Noche,
depending on where in the world you are.
Yeah.
How is everyone doing?
Did you open Duolingo again?
I did.
It's a daily reminder.
We were on a call the other day
and OT flamed them for not playing
with them on Duolingo.
I broke my street. I broke my back for a minute
like literally know any time of the day for any person did they break their streak on it
sorry what was that knowledge you know so like you're talking about lingo right the lingua app
yeah yeah duolingo yeah so nothing to do with lingo but
so imagine the power you have you have the data of the global discipline of the people can you
imagine so they have millions of users and they know like how many of each it's a small data like
if you compare to apple but it's still fun to know it's a great point yeah it's a great point
fun to know. It's a great point. Yeah. It's a great point. Um, it's kind of like, uh, and some
people, this, some people won't like this. Some people may agree or disagree, but this is like,
when I look at people, if they're like really overweight or they're not in shape, I, I kind of
make a judgment of their discipline. Um, I, like, I don't, I'm not,
like, sitting there thinking, oh, you fat loser or something. I'm just thinking, I think it's a
subconscious thing. Like, if you're doing business with people, if you're whatever is, like, you know,
how do they take care of themselves? That's probably their discipline in some other areas.
It's not always like that but you know
it's something i think humans look at subconsciously yeah i agree i used to have
different opinion but then some people changed my mind what was your opinion i used to have
like bail me out here because i i'm sure many people in the audience are like this guy's an asshole say something say something to make me look not as bad and so my manager like he
was he looks so strict that was my first impression he was always like in a tie like looking neat always very polite but then when he got out of the work he used to wake uh he used to dress like a 15
year old teenager you know almost on the waist with like this funny cap uh and I thought okay
the people can be different but I realized he's the same outside the world. He's just like a masquerade. Okay, you guys are going to...
I'm going to definitely piss off people in the audience.
But, okay, when I was young, I listened to a lot of rap.
Like, underground hip-hop and whatever, you know.
Like, a lot of the older stuff.
But now, when I find out that rap is someone's main music, I definitely
judge them. Is that messed up? I guess it depends on their age maybe. Is that a thing? Can you say that? Is it dependent on age?
uh yeah definitely yeah i guess if you're if you're like in your 30s or 40s and
and you're still like you know bumping rap while you're driving down the street i don't know i don't
know unless it's for that like uh the you know the oldies goldies that you listened to when you were 20. Yeah, I'll give it a pass there, which is totally hypocritical, right?
I mean,
that
heavily weighs in if it's P. Diddy
or not.
Is it a plus or a minus?
You know.
I've been keeping up.
Sorry, guys.
This is a meme coin
space today, so we're being a little more loose.
We can do that.
I was actually...
When that whole P. Diddy thing first was happening...
Or was it? No, it wasn't him. Was it him? Was it another guy? No, it was R. Kelly.
Do you remember when R. Kelly got in trouble. I have some friends and they have this
big music party company
where they do these big events and conferences.
And they sometimes had me
go and help out to
DJ and control
the changeovers.
And I wasn't paying attention to the news
so I hadn't seen it coming.
So I was blasting R. Kelly
at this party. And I couldn't figure out why everybody was looking weird at me sometimes
And someone told me after do but that guy just got convinced the fucking like this week
What about like the Balenciaga guys, you know all the people wearing the Balenciaga
Balenciaga whatever clothes after that.
Some weird stuff come out there and I started noticing everyone, a lot more people wearing it.
Yeah.
Is this Epstein's virtual island here?
What did I walk into?
Yeah.
Hey, Joel.
Whoops.
We'll see. whoops I'll still
put on
some old
rap song or hip hop
song from back in the
day once in a while
the modern stuff
really sucks
maybe that's what it is for me
I've been struggling with old hip-hop that i used
to love in high school but not because i don't like it but because like because there's been so
much coming out about those people being involved with human trafficking and you know sex crime
sex crimes against kids that i'm like how can i listen to these people's music i mean i'm sure this is absolutely a south park
episode also where randy's listening to the old music and randy's like this is garbage and then
he realizes this because it's getting old so that's uh that's rock right now
we're all just getting old you know that's probably why we experiencing that so we taking a look on
what's kind of a modern right now and like ah it sucks uh so maybe we're just all getting older
that's true maybe that's how it is that's probably how it is so when when you when we were listening
to wu-tang clan at some point like all the bro i was just i was just thinking about wu-tang man yeah they did that wu-tang was awesome man
come on super nice did you see did you see that thing that you can they have the you can buy the
album or you can buy the one what is it you buy it when you get it when it gets released it's on
bass now and it's something like every time you buy it it's one it when it gets released it's on bass now and it's something like every
time you buy it it's one dollar for the album and every time you buy the album one time it it moves
the clock closer one second or one minute or something to release date oh so each person is
contributing to the release exactly coming sooner so you only pay one dollar for the album.
But I was looking at it a year ago, and it was in 88 years.
Something like that.
Something idiotic.
So you need to buy it a lot.
Let me just check.
What a cool idea, though.
I've always thought there could be so much we can do
with music and uh and nfts or some kind of like band meme coin which is actually perfect for this
this episode but i always i always i mean there's a lot of things i've envisioned or like
fantasized about that our industry would solve over the last 10 years and but not a lot of them
have come to fruition really i mean like decentralized uber that never happened i thought
for sure that would be awesome um decent decentralized torrents um i thought for sure
that would happen that or i thought it should happen because the problem with torrents was that there was never enough people uploading to the hive.
There was too many people downloading.
So everybody was being takers, like leechers, and they weren't uploading.
What did they call it?
Leeching and seeding?
So like seeders were people feeding, like giving back.
And there were never enough of them because it was just altruistic.
You didn't get anything for it. Other than think it might have helped your like speeds or something not
not much of an uh of a incentive though so but imagine if for every you know one minute of
content or one megabyte of content you downloaded you paid a token and for every one megabyte you
uploaded you received a token so you could be a net uploader
and you would get paid you net get paid or you could be a net downloader and then you would have
to contribute money or you could break even just upload what you download and then you would be
you would never pay anything for your stuff you just have to contribute back what you take um and i thought for sure this would happen when justin's son bought u-torrent and uh you know he made bttc and uh didn't didn't do that
i don't know he didn't do anything with it i thought u-torrent i don't think that i know of
so there's all these things that we have so there must be something going on you know what i
think it's just like uh brock you're in us right yeah puerto rico oh yeah sorry i don't know for
that but yes us okay so uh in europe we don't have such a problem with the torrents i think
or there's a theory that it's because when netflix just came out everybody thought okay we just don't have such a problem with the torrents, I think, or there's a theory that it's because when Netflix just came out, everybody thought, okay, we just don't need torrent because everything is cheap.
When what came out?
Netflix.
Okay.
I mean, torrent is used mostly, i i don't even know but i'm
just guessing because streaming is so convenient and relatively right is it still is it still the
case is streaming common yeah no i'm not saying it's not common i'm just saying uh at least what
i get the feedback from so you know now you have a disney plus and then you have amazon netflix
before it was just Netflix, right?
For example, and you cannot watch The Office, for example,
on Netflix, which is my favorite show.
Right.
You need a separate stream.
Shout out to The Office.
Yeah.
So that's why maybe the idea with Torrent
just never came to be.
It's just like because it's...
It's just not as common now.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what torrent numbers look like these days. I guess, I guess maybe when I was young and
poor, that was more, maybe, maybe now I just have enough money to just pay for streaming. I guess
when I played video games, that that's what the torrents were for.
Yeah. Oh yeah. I posted i think it's coming back
yeah it's coming back so people so with all of the streaming services now people are getting
like streaming fatigue like you just said right like because now it's it's not just netflix and
hulu it's you know netflix and hulu and max and Paramount and Disney Plus and everything.
It's a lot of them.
Yeah.
Me and Cindy, because she works in film and TV,
so we have to be able to watch all the actors she's researching or whatever.
And we must have, I don't know, eight of these things?
I mean, the thing as well is I've got, like, Amazon Prime,
but now they're like, hey, do you want to pay, like, extra
if you don't want to watch ads before you watch something?
Oh, yeah, that's bullshit.
It's like an extra $2.99 a month.
And it's like, no, fuck off.
Yeah.
I mean, you could say it's bullshit, but I think it's good to have tiers.
I mean, think about it.
If you didn't have tiers, then it would always just cost a lot, right?
Or they would always serve ads.
But if you give people the option, if you want to be frugal, then watch the damn ad.
If you want to pay some money, don't watch the ad.
Aren't they just charging more?
It feels like they made streaming, and now they're just turning streaming into cable tv again it feels it now streaming is more expensive than cable ever was
it's crazy yeah no but that like that's what i'm saying like torrent is coming back people are
getting streaming fatigue well the world's getting fucking poor because governments are printing too much money.
And I don't know what's going on, but yeah, it feels like everybody is feeling poor these days.
Well, nicks are expensive.
Yeah.
We've got to put that money in.
So actually there is one called BitTorrent.
Because uTorrent is kind of probably the most famous one.
But BitTorrent is something that's probably you mentioned wrong.
So they're printing their own tokens and maybe distributing not in the same way, but something similar to peers and to those who actually contributing.
So that's evaluated.
Wait, what?
If you upload torrents now, you get tokens?
Not actually, but yes.
So there is a protocol like in Droppling, like BitTorrent.
It's called BitTorrent.
Yeah, actually, thank you, by the way.
So I said uTorrent earlier,
Justin Sun bought BitTorrent, not uTorrent.
uTorrent is an older one that I was just mixing on, I think, right?
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah.
But go on.
Yeah, and actually, if you compound the prices that every streaming service has,
we came out of incredible cost per user so
if you kind of the average guy and you want to watch everything you pay an insane amount of money
uh comparing to the average salaries etc so in some countries especially uh in third world uh
torrent is still a thing uh because not like the whole world has efforts
yeah i mean and there's i mean the thing is though the cool thing that i like about it is
there's more optionality so like back in the day you would just have to pay for cable or something
which was you know i don't know 60 to 150 you could choose, you know, do you want to get a bunch of cheaper ones that
have ads or even I'm sure there's some that are free with ads.
Um, Pluto, I think TV, things like that.
Um, or you could just watch YouTube, right?
There's infinite content available.
So I would say the world is still in a much better place in terms of content, right?
There's infinite content.
If you want it for free at your fingertips, if you want, you know, to have all these other services, or there's a very specific show you want to
watch, yeah, you might have to pay, but in a, in a, overall,
the world is in an incredible place for content.
Content is like infinite and close to, to free in a lot of ways, like music.
You could watch, you could get Pandora for free, right?
Pandora is incredible. And I, I always had the, uh, the premium on it, but I, I don't know,
one of my credit cards changed and it didn't update. So, um, I've been, I think for the last
like four or five months using Pandora and not, I haven't paid because I just have been too lazy
to update it and the experience hasn't been that bad.
So I guess the world's in a good place with that.
But you're saying that BitTorrent, they actually did.
Okay, so my point was that a lot of things that I've predicted in Web3
haven't happened over the years.
And I guess this is one case where maybe it did happen.
That's kind of cool.
Still waiting for that decentralized Uber, though.
I want to check out BitTor.
I remember the name.
The Tesla taxi is going to take over.
It's going to win.
Oh, yeah.
So, fun fact.
I knew of a few decentralized Ubers back in the day.
One was called Arcade City for a brief period of time.
It forked to something called Swarm City, which is all built on Ethereum back when Ethereum wasn't expensive.
And eventually they couldn't quite make it work for a few different reasons.
Some of it was the latency in retrieving the decentralized data.
And some of it is they lost all their money in a massive hack one of those
early ones in ethereum and there was another company called or a project called dash taxi
that was built using dash that was a kind of a prototype in 2019 at the dash convention in zurich
and i did use a dash taxi and use the app It was actually pretty cool. Whoa, you actually used it?
Yes.
That was a 2019 prototype.
It's not around anymore, but the company behind them is still around and still building stuff in Dash.
And I can't wait to push them to do this again and say, hey, remember Dash Taxi?
Now that the tech is way better to build on, why don't we give that another run?
I mean, I could still, I could see it happening.
I mean, like think about with Uber, you know, and now Tesla's coming and others and Waymo,
but, and there's already Lyft, but I could totally see us just like people maintaining
a, and all the infras there and a driver can use different
ones.
They can use Uber and Duber, right?
Decentralized Uber or whatever, uh, as, uh, Mike Novogratz once, uh, called it.
Um, but why couldn't we just maintain like an open source, you know, like a Linux of,
of Uber app and people could just connect and uh you know they don't
even need a it doesn't even need to necessarily have a token by the way it could just you know
you could just pay in whatever multiple things dash you know usdc on polygon whatever
what everything needs a token.
How much Uber is charging drivers?
Like, in percentage?
The thing is, like, surprise me, you know, how much...
Isn't it like 20 or 25%?
It's like a lot, I think.
I remember talking to someone.
I think it's 20 or 25, right?
Just Eat is like 30%.
Fuck off. That's crazy. But but for delivery it's fucking 30 percent for
the restaurant like just this is crazy you know so i guess you're right about this information
things i mean what are they getting paid for 30 percent so well let me say it's probably
inherent security that you assume for uber like, because of some somewhat, if you just
get a random car.
Yeah, it's a trust assumption you're paying for.
Well, speaking of being fat, I ordered a, for my birthday a couple days ago, I ordered
a McFlurry at, like, midnight, and it was 10 bucks and a mcflurry
came right to my door it was pretty nice 10 dollars for mcflurry god well but it came right
to my door and that was with tip i tipped four bucks i think so i guess what are they what are
they using in is it uberats or is it something different?
Yeah, Uber Eats is what I use.
But they have Postmates and other stuff here.
Uber used to have a 25% fee, but now it's dynamic.
And yeah, it's been from 29% to 50%.
Wow.
Well, I'll say this.
These Uber drivers are making good money.
There is an Uber driver here that we've run into a few times.
Cindy takes it.
She's run into them because she goes to the gym.
I'm more on the fat people side now.
But I just walk and use the gym here, but at the condos, but anyways, um, this guy was showing me how much he makes from Uber.
He makes on average, he says like 1700 a week.
This is in Puerto Rico too.
He makes seven.
Now I'm in a kind of investor.
This is, it's all investors and a lot of tourists in the area I'm in in San Juan,
which is the capital.
But he was showing me some weeks.
I think the highest he showed me, and he's showing me on the app,
he made like $3,000 in one week.
Like what the fuck is going on?
I mean, this is a, you know you know oh he's also working like he would show
me some some weeks 70 80 90 hours but i mean still it's pretty incredible that someone could
just hop in there oh and he has a it was like a mercedes like it's premium but um but still
pretty incredible that is good yeah i mean the world the world is not so bad i know we complain about a lot of things in
the world but if if uh someone in puerto rico can just go to the investor or you know tourist area
and you know drive tourists around for 80 hours a week and be making you know 6 000 7 000 8 000
a month i mean that's
pretty i mean it was the numbers he was showing me were from the the tourist season so it's not
always like that but anyways i thought that was pretty incredible do not tell that to most of the
teams across the three because they might be switching to puerto rico drivers
yeah it's uh it's it's hard out there in the crypto world right now.
Especially for those who are actually trading meme coins a lot.
So that's tightly tied to our current topic.
Yeah, they're making negative $1,700 a week.
Yeah, actually.
Not if they're insiders not if they're part of the insider
meme coin trading cabal there are insiders and outsiders so there are always yeah yeah
yeah let's uh let's get into it um yeah uh actually why don't we uh are we okay how about
this uh okay let's do introductions but we're gonna do them super fast okay 15 seconds per Uh, actually, why don't we, uh, are we okay? How about this?
Uh, okay. Let's do introductions, but we're going to do them super fast.
Okay.
15 seconds per introduction.
Uh, let's go DeFi granddad.
Yes.
Hi everyone.
So, um, seven years in web three, six years building DeFi products, uh, has been into the
meme coin market for like since Shiba.
I have seen PumpFun up and down.
So that's pretty much it.
I hope it's 15 seconds already.
Wait, I'm going to ruin it already.
Your bio says Protofire?
Yes.
You're with Protofire?
Yes, I'm a part of the Prot the protifier so we're building different products across
the three working with top tire products like flare uh balancer uh safe and many more uh
and actually i'm building products from 2017 from the ico rice
yeah you we're very familiar with protifier you guys are building we're building multiple things
with you guys actually uh we're not we're not actually lives here in puerto rico with me um
he was one of the reasons i ended up moving here i went to his condo and me and cindy had wine with
his uh him and his wife we went out and got some italian food I was like, man, this Puerto Rico place is pretty awesome.
But yeah, we're actually going to the taxi home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And actually we've done a great, great calls with Shane and we're in touch with your team a lot.
So, yep.
Yeah.
I mean, it sounds like you might not even know all this stuff we're doing. So we're working, we just put out a vote, actually, QuickSwap, that Protofire is going to come on and essentially, we're bringing on a lead dev from Protofire, as well as a couple more devs. And so far, we've had a couple so far we've been testing, and so far it's incredible. The Protofire devs are, like, top tier.
Seriously, best in the industry, literally.
The best devs I've ever worked with.
Because we've been working with you guys on also StratX that we're incubating.
And, yeah, Protofire has literally the best devs in the entire industry.
I can agree, definitely.
Like, our devs are top tier. And actually, I haven't seen better architects than in Protifier. Like some guys are actually nailing it a lot, building insanely hard products from scratch.
Ethereum Foundation have built things for Aave.
Renat was advisor at a chain link before Eric Schmidt, the Google CEO, replaced him.
He always jokes.
You guys, Renat and some of your team were early in Gnosis before it became safe and
helped with the transition there.
You guys are safe guardians.
So Protifier manages a lot
of the deployments of safe across chains i think they're the main uh the main distributor of that
actually um what else balancer you guys uh uh renat is one of the uh what are they called the
bow bow whales and manages some of the governance uh him and some
of your team i think manage some of the governance for balancer um yes which is we 220 system uh one
of the top products for daos which would like to uh decrease their cell pressure of the tokens they're releasing and open voting for
DAO. Plus we contributed a lot to the core product of Balancer, building the
actual platform with them. So yeah, we've built a lot of things with top
products across the industry. Thank you for such a warm introduction actually.
Maybe you represent the product better than me. Thank you. industry thank you for such a warm introduction actually maybe you represented thank you yeah i
ruined the 15 seconds this happens it's so it's my fault really the the long introductions are
always my fault so but no protifier deserves the praise you guys are incredible and we're really
excited i think this is a very bullish moment uh for quick swap that that we're expanding the dev team.
And actually, yeah, so Samip, our lead dev for the last five, six years, will be stepping into an advisory position.
And we're bringing on someone from Protifier.
If the governance vote goes through, this is a community vote but if the governance vote goes through we'll be bringing on a lead from protifier
as well as a couple more protifier devs so that we can push faster expand to more chains develop
you know innovate more products faster and do a complete rehaul of our our ui yeah you know maybe
we need some kind of a community interview for lead developers.
Our guys can just come to talk and give them like 10-15 minutes and community will like them.
It's really cool too. Protifier is a DAO.
So I love the concept and it's been around a long time.
around a long time you guys have worked on like really incredible stuff uh we're not
You guys have worked on like really incredible stuff.
did a lot of the uh risk uh analysis and management of um stuff for the for die for
maker dow for the dye peg uh keeping the peg uh safe uh until they fully decentralized the peg
uh and he helped with that over the years. Just incredible work from you guys. Seriously.
Cool.
And yeah,
I agree.
Renat is a great person.
Actually,
one of the most unique people I've met in Web3 space.
Unique is a good word.
He's definitely a character.
I love Renat.
He's one of the smartest people in risk,
like,
and DeFi, he's one of the smartest people in in risk like um and defy and and just tech and architecture of these systems he's he's in the in those categories i mean he's probably number one for
me the only person i know who is like as good or better at defy than him him is uh alexi who's our
product lead at quick swap who whenever i have defFi questions, I go to one of them.
And Darren too here behind the QuickSwap handle is really incredible at DeFi.
But anyways, okay.
Hi Darren.
Let's go to Beat Happening.
15 seconds, but we might break it.
All right.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, hey, my name is rasmus i've been in into
crypto since 17 also and uh i work with companies on making their remote teams more efficient and then i help with the network growth i think that's the easiest way to say things. That was below 15 seconds.
Yeah.
All right.
Joel, a.k.a. Joel, but just call him Joel. Yeah, what are we doing here?
We're shilling.
Yeah, just introducing for 15 seconds.
Whatever you want to say or shill.
I already took eight seconds, so you're almost done.
Just kidding.
Okay.
Dash is the best usable digital cash in the world.
You can live all off of it, pay all your bills, everything.
I have been doing that for like eight years or so.
So download the Dash Pay wallet.
It's Android only for now, but will be iOS soon.
There's some cool spending tools in there that can let you save like 5% to 10%
for US users to start out with, but then
more soon.
That's really nice.
I'm going to try Dash now.
Been a fan of Dash
for a long time.
I don't even know how long. At least
7, 8 years, I think.
Okay.
And Richard. Hey, I think. Okay. And Richard.
Hey, I'm Richard.
And I just came for the chips and salsa.
All right.
And Richard's a beast over here.
A humble beast.
Nicole.
Humble beast.
Hey, I'm Nicole
I think that's all I need to say
Nerd Girl 007
I work for LDA
and sometimes for
Joelle
at Dash
and I do other jobs too
I have like three or four different jobs
What makes it hard money?
Oh I have like three or four different jobs. What makes it hard money? Oh, that was.
Yeah.
Thanks for that.
You got it.
Yeah.
What was the answer in that video?
So I said, it's, it's hard money.
If it's got a vein, what was it?
Joel was like, it's got a vein, but it was it was entirely, Joel put me up to it, okay?
He told me that he would buy me lunch.
And also, I hadn't slept for like two days in Vegas.
So it sounded like a really good idea.
And it was Aztec.
So I knew that he would be dumbfounded, you know, like on the other side of the camera.
What?
You predicted that?
That's funny.
His reaction was priceless.
Of course.
Of course, because you know.
If it was someone else, they might have just laughed right away or said something back.
But Aztec, he didn't know how to respond.
So that's why it was funny.
The context was Aztec was asking people at Litecoin Summit,
what makes something hard money for you?
And Nicole said it has a vein in it or something disgusting.
It was great.
I did put it, I take full responsibility.
I just did say, hey, I made a quip.
She laughed.
I said, why don't you say it when it's your turn?
I'll buy you lunch.
She's like, deal.
No, but no hesitation.
I should put that.
It wasn't like, I don't know.
No, she's like, yes.
No, Nicole lives for those moments.
Yeah, she did.
She did.
I'm surprised. I absolutely'd have done it for free. I'm surprised it wasn't her.
I absolutely would have done it for free.
It was not about the lunch.
It was just about the laugh.
But I was delirious.
And I had done several things that day that already proved that I was completely delirious.
But it was great. right we got lingo
hey what is your street we have the connection to lingo uh we are lingo token basically it's
we have very simple business model you stake lingo tokens and you can participate in raffles
you stake lingo tokens and you can participate in raffles uh we recently gave away a rolex so
when i miss that your loss uh but we do have some other prices uh we are on base in solano
um my name is alex pleasure to meet you all
all right not to be confused with duolingo and we have king dank kush King Dank Kush.
Hey, guys.
I'm at a Nationals volleyball tournament in Orlando,
so probably a little too loud for me to eat.
All right.
And Panda. introduction. Panda.
Darren.
Darren.
It's really hard to look at the... It's really hard to hear all these introductions
and not just hear like,
hi, my name's Darren and I'm an alcoholic.
But no, I'm not an alcoholic.
It's fine.
Yeah.
You are.
You're in Scotland.
In your country, it's not considered alcoholic it's just that's
just what you guys do right yeah pretty much i mean actually if you're not an alcoholic you're
kind of weird like if you go in a bar and you're like i would just have a cola at a war like people
people give you a look and they just assume that you're an alcoholic um what is this guy a cop? Yeah, no, genuinely is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I pretend to be a panda at Quickswap.
So that's pretty much me.
Tell people what you do.
I make panda noises.
I rule around.
I fall out of trees often.
Eat bamboo.
All right.
Darren is like one of the kings of BD in this industry.
If you need a connection to almost anyone in the industry, Darren is your guy.
And he's really good on the product side. I mean, just generally, he's probably, I think,
probably the most knowledgeable community person
in the whole Polygon ecosystem.
Yeah, incredible individual.
Been working together now.
How long have you been working with Quickswap, Darren?
I think full time, maybe three together now. How long have you been working with Quickswap, Darren? I think full-time, maybe three years now.
There was a year that you were trying to convince me
to be full-time, so maybe four years-ish.
Yeah.
And then the story behind that's pretty funny.
It's not memes, but it's not very dissimilar.
You want to tell the story of how you finally,
when I convinced you to come full-time into crypto and quick swap,
what gave you the security to know you could do it and quit your job?
Well, basically, Mrs. Panda was like, I don't know,
like eight months pregnant or something.
I was still just aping into shit coins, presales and it was like 20 it was late 2022 so
everything was boring so I was in a BD group that held peg at 69 members if a
new person joined that to remove someone if someone left they had to invite
someone always 69 members there was a button there um you could type prompts into and it would
generate an image back so naturally we were all just using that to generate hyper realistic penises
um and then yeah basically it was like hey why don't you like make this into a token and they
were like yeah that's a great idea so they like a team assembled in front of me like there was a
guy that was like yeah i'll do the dev work.
Cause he'd made the bot.
And then there was someone that was like, yeah, I'll do the BD.
I'll do the marketing.
So they've done the pre-sale in that group.
I ate like, I think it was like 600 bucks into 1% of the supply.
And then, yeah, like long story short, like, I don't know, three months later, it was worth like, I think it was like 55 mil market cap.
And you sold some of yours and paid off your house?
You can still see me on the chart yeah and then
and then yeah that gave you the security to go full-time
pretend to be a panda. But yeah pretty incredible that you paid off your house
and uh we're like all right I could do this now I can take the tended to be a panda. But yeah, pretty incredible that you paid off your house and were like,
all right, I could do this now. I can take the risk of going full-time crypto.
It's good to hear good stories in the industry. I know people are like right now, you know,
whether it's meme coins or alt coins in general, it's not so easy out there unless you're holding all bitcoin uh but yeah
good to hear these good stories you know we got a lot of stories like that in quick swap um early
on you know because we launched it as a community project we gave all the tokens to the community
we did no token sale even though we had uh big vcs like sequoia offering us 20 mil plus to invest.
And we ended up turning them all down and not taking any investment,
gave it all the community.
And we had so many people because there was no VCs to dump.
There was no cabal.
There was like not even team tokens.
There was only 3% went to team.
I, as co-founder, didn't even take any, I rejected co-founder tokens.
I, as co-founder, didn't even take any.
I rejected co-founder tokens.
Now, LDA, who incubated and did all the marketing for now like five, six, whatever years, got 1%.
And for working for LDA over years, I accumulated like a quarter percent.
And then I bought a ton on my own.
But anyways, there was no VCs.
There was no VCs.
There was no team to dump.
So people in the community just made a ton of money.
So people in the community just made a ton of money.
I've run into hundreds of people over the years who have been like, yeah, I made a ton of money from, you know, farming quick swap and pull, you know, in all these early days.
And we would always, we would get messages like every other day or week or whatever of someone like, yeah, I just paid off all my student loans.
Yeah, I just paid off my house. You know, all these cool stories.
So there's definitely great stories like that in our industry.
In the bear market, it's harder to...
That's why meme coins are so popular,
because that's the sort of escape route that people see
that they can, the most likely way that they can do that.
Man, I feel bad though now.
Like, I don't want to give people hope that with your
dick pic story that this kind of stuff is responsible i'll take the voice today of
meme coins are incredibly dangerous i mean look you only put 600 in that one so that's nice but
that could quickly for someone turn into putting 601 project losing it all 600 in another project
losing it all 600 and then
before they know it they're out of money um and they could have just been holding something safe
so i'll be the voice of you know meme coins are dangerous here um but does anyone else have any
cool stories about positive events that have happened with them with like meme or other
kind of shit coin stuff.
Can I say something about this meme thing?
I made a ton of money.
I feel like around 60% of the market or 70% are brinders
or people who are launching tokens.
I met a guy recently, he's in my home country
and he has 15 people working in his office everyone has hundreds
of wallets so they're launching meme tokens buying like i don't know 60 70 percent of the curve and
just waiting for a few suckers to jump in and they sell everything and uh i spent like last
few of the last weekends trying to buy and sell.
But after he told me this story, I was like, okay, this needs a pause until it's regulated.
Yeah, so I'll join your team, Zach.
Yeah, that's unfortunately my take on most of this meme coin stuff is the vast majority of it is cabals.
There's a lot of wash trading.
There's a lot of tricks.
There's a lot of fake users and, you know, trying to create a fake picture of what's actually happening.
And a lot of it is just getting the next sucker.
And a lot of it is just getting the next sucker.
It's really, really messed up.
I think it's evolved into something that's pretty cancerous.
I'm not saying all meme coins are cancerous at all.
I think there's some meme coins that are super cool and have great communities.
But most of it, unfortunately, has become pretty cancerous.
What happened to PumpFun and GMG and Twitter?
Why they were blocked, anyone knows?
They were, like, blocked for a day.
I mean, I read in a chat that it was something to do with, like, an API.
Like, they were just getting a backdoor into the Twitter API
because you're usually meant
to spend like a lot of money to use it um so it was them and a few others that were just accessing
that without having to pay for it and then they got punked i was hoping they were they were banned to be honest i mean here's my my my thing is like i don't wish for like um a tool like pump
fun necessarily to be banned or us to like try to you know i don't know make make laws or rules
against it i mean as libertarian i think cigarettes are stupid but i will defend people's right to smoke them um
you know there's a lot of things in the world that i think are stupid i think gambling is really
stupid unless you're just like you know once every few years you're in vegas with your friends and
you put 20 bucks in a slot machine or maybe a few hundred bucks if that's you know you have it you
can afford to lose it and you think it's fun. But generally, I don't like gambling, but I think people should be allowed to do it.
Same with meme coins or the pump fun type stuff.
I don't love it.
I don't do it myself.
I think it's really stupid and even cancerous and a bad look for our industry.
But I think people should be allowed to do it.
Let the free market figure out what it wants to do.
Let people learn from their mistakes.
And hopefully over time, we get stronger for it. Let the free market figure out what it wants to do. Let people learn from their mistakes and hopefully over time we get stronger for it.
If we will take a look, let's say on the high level of how meme coin market feels like.
So it's even worse than casino, but actually it doesn't mean it's bad for someone who building and actually for those who creating their own, for example, layer two, like Solana, for example, they experienced
huge liquidity inflow when pump fund was on a high stake, probably for long term, it's
bad.
We can agree with it.
But for numbers in midterm, it's bad. We can agree with it. But for numbers in midterm, it's good. Also,
it's quite a nice experiment on the attention and actually on the user's greed, because everyone
knows that most of the PAMP1 tokens are a scam. And actually, we can say that all of them,
excluding very low percentage, I would say, even a part of the percentage of the tokens that are released on PAMFOD are possible to make, let's say, a buck or two for people.
So it's bad, but it's where the industry is going.
We will see more of it in the future.
It, of course, also made a lot of young...
I know a lot of young people that were downloading wallets
to take part in that.
They probably all lost money,
but they have a wallet now and they know what it is.
And I guess hopefully they will come back around
and stay for longer. That's why on CT we actually see that PumP
Fun was good for new users onboarding because a lot of people actually became knowledgeable
at least a bit about what crypto is, what is Solana, how you can make money here or
lose most likely all your savings. But at least they got on boarded and now they
explore different opportunities besides the usual gambling i guess it depends though what what is
the what is the return rate of these people so like it's people call it you know a gateway drug
and it's a fair point but i wonder if if someone comes on through like this pump fund memes, if that like if 100 people come on, how first of all, how many of them lose?
I think we've all seen numbers.
I don't know what the what the overall is, but I've seen numbers like 96 percent of meme traders are overall in negative.
96% of meme traders are overall in negative.
So if 100 people come on and 96% of them lose money,
do you think that those are going to become crypto users?
I'm not sure.
I mean, it's different than if you came on to Bitcoin.
I came on to Bitcoin in 2015, and it was basically sideways or down for, I don't know, a year or something from when I came in.
But I didn't feel burnt because I was researching, you know, why is this important for the world?
I was learning about decentralization. I was watching Andreas you know, why is this important for the world? I was learning about
decentralization. I was watching Andreas Antonopoulos. I was listening to his Senate hearing with the
Canadian Senate. It's like four hours long. And I was just learning. And I was like, this is such
an incredible thing. This could change the world. Even if I lost a little money in the short term,
I didn't care because I believed in the long term. But when you come in and you're buying Obama fart
coin and losing all your money, and you're not not learning about these and you're doing it on a
chain that's not really that decentralized uh and the people on the chain are like decentralization
doesn't matter a lot of them or whatever i mean are you gonna stay don't you think that i think
they'll go away but don't you think they're more prone to
like keep an eye on when they see new things about crypto i mean maybe they'll go away for a few years
or maybe they feel really nasty about it and they're just like i don't want to touch this i
don't know i actually have no idea what those numbers look like and sometimes the numbers that
you know you feel aren't right you know um? Yeah. But I guess the most, the people who gamble the most are also the most opportunistic.
So they might, they might come back around.
I guess that's why casinos and online casinos are so popular.
You can make so much money on them.
I guess I was more of a fan of like, even in, let's move next to the next, you know,
next you know cycle or two cycles later from when i came in to 2021 um people came in and they were
cycle or two cycles later from when I came in to 2021.
like wow i heard my friend made a bunch of money on uniswap or on quick swap or you know or whatever
in so what were they doing they were like at that time it wasn't researching how to follow the
cabals or you know i don't, whatever people do in the trenches.
It was like, oh, look at this, this DeFi protocol can do this.
And this can, this is why it can change the world.
And, you know, there was at least a dream to be had.
And there was like a positive effect on the world that we were chasing, you know?
And so even if some of the things you invested in lost
i mean in a lot of ways defy and things in 2021 were they were very similar to memes in the in
terms of like gambling people you know just trying to make quick money but at least they were trying
to make quick money on something that they believed was technology that could change things everybody
that gets into a meme coin knows this oh that you know obama's like fart is not gonna do anything for the world and they
don't care so there's nothing like positive for them to research to get hooked into like
hey we're in a movement together we're trying to do something different here
but if put back guys does anybody have uh opinions on the other side of this please
i just think it's going to consolidate.
I think that then, like, this made a bunch of new people come in.
Most came in, had a shit experience.
It went completely out of hand.
But then it sort of consolidates.
And then, yeah, who knows how the next phase looks like.
But it's probably going to involve more people again and more money.
And, I i mean of course
there's more dilution but but i would guess that things start to consolidate now people know okay
memes are gonna fuck you up big time yeah who knows maybe they did that and then they were like
hey uh this is dangerous i'm gonna buy some bitcoin i'm gonna buy some ETH. I'm going to buy some pole or I'm going to buy some... Save memes.
I remember doing research on whether people getting involved in like the ICO craze in like
2017, 2018 era was bad for crypto and reading that it really wasn't, that it actually had a net positive effect, that people didn't see
losing money in crypto as a long term, like as a in the short term, as a long term deterrent,
they saw it as like, okay, I made some bad decisions in my first cycle, as like, not
necessarily as, you know, reason to not get in long term but as a reason to
become better educated or get into coins that had a more established history but not as a reason to
not be involved at all I don't know if that's changed it's been a really like that was my
first cycle that I read that so that was like you know the 2017 era i don't know
if that's changed since then that was a long time i mean but 2017 was again people everything there
like think of the things we invested in in 2017 they were still trying to promise to change the
world right like dna coin i i invested in one of my friends made like 2000 X on or whatever. I get
in there like, oh, we're going to be like putting DNA and they're doing all this research and they
have these contracts with these DNA like research facilities and universities and that thing lost
all of its value, you know? But what else? what were some cool things in 2017? Eathlend, which became Aave.
Um, so there were some, some that actually succeeded. Uh, oh, um, uh, Richard Bronson,
uh, Sir Richard Bronson did, uh, was endorsing, uh, I think it was called Ledger or Power or Power Ledger or whatever,
which was like credits for having kind of mesh electricity networks where you can trade your solar or whatever.
You could upload and earn credits or download or use electricity and pay credits,
similar to the BitTorrent thing we were talking about,
creating like a mesh network for electricity
instead of going just through the one utilities.
That didn't do well.
I mean, but at least these things had prompt.
We like were trying to innovate, you know?
So I can see people not being as sour about that.
But when you're buying...
I almost feel like that's worse.
Like, because when you buy fart coin or like these stupid meme coins, you can't really believe.
You know that you're getting into a Ponzi.
You know this is a numbers game.
But when you bought those Humanic and those Mesh Network coins, you believed that you were getting into something that you could like hold for years
and would have value i feel like it's it's almost that was worse golem was a cool one but yeah that's
that's a fair point when you think then you feel like you got sold a bill of goods maybe you know
at least meme coins you know what you're getting into uh come rocket you know, but yeah, Golem was a cool one that it was like decentralized compute.
What else? Filecoin, decentralized storage.
There was storage with a J that was also decentralized storage.
There was SIA, which was another, I think, either decentralized computer or one of these things.
Obviously, Ethereum was the biggest thing popping and that is still around and
pretty incredible uh a lot of nostalgia in those days then there was stuff that was just you got
burnt which was like uh disney um what was it dragon or dragon chain or whatever which they
were like we got there's a Disney, you know,
executive working here and who knows what that turned out to be. But it, I think it turned out
to be bullshit. Like it was like some, someone who worked at like Disney land or something, uh,
it was on the team or something. Um, yeah. What, what, what is the current state of,
of meme coins guys? I just don't follow it enough to
know um are people making money from these i know solana volume has been um down but
yeah what's the current state are people still into it honestly it's like a it's like a uh
i don't know like a like a roller coaster or, I don't know, like a rocket or like a,
it's like jumping in a shopping basket and then like getting ready to go down the hill.
Like eventually, you know, you're going to have to hop out.
You just don't know when it's going to start shaking and, you know, crash.
Or like skateboards.
You're going down on your skateboard and you start getting the speed wobbles.
Yeah, exactly. Pretty much. you're going down on your skateboard and you start getting the speed wobbles yeah exactly pretty much i mean every every meme coin i i jump into it's like okay like what am i gonna do am i gonna only take 10 or 20 bucks um yeah it's it's it's kind of
i want to make it i want to make a case for, I see that someone put James Slammeron up here.
I want to make a case for TickerBitcoin.
And I know that they're building a blockchain, the blockchain.
That's right. Thank you, BeatHapp.
Hey, guys, it's Morlite.
I'm one of the head devs for TickerBitcoin.
We've been around for over two years.
We are one of the older, more established E meme coins in the space along with SPX,
MOG, the whole Murad list that we all love.
And I just wanted to quickly, thank you guys for letting me up.
I just wanted to quickly make the case for meme coins because I think what you guys are
saying is true.
I think one of the good things about meme coins is that what you see is what you get.
There's no vaporware.
There's no sort of pretend, you know, RWA thing
happening that's sort of supposed to give the thing inherent value. You know, and I think that's
actually refreshing for people investing in this space. And I've been in this space for a long time
since it was like 1630 bucks. People were, you know, mining it on graphics cards. So I've got
into meme coins because I think it's the most pure expression of
what we're doing here in crypto, which it can be scammy, as you guys are saying. I think the
we is being separated from the chaff. As time has gone on, we've seen PumpFun kind of spew out a ton
of exploitative sort of extractive projects that were really meaningless. And people are tired of
that. So that's good, I think. It was bad for the space then. It's good that it's kind of been
exercised, I think. So what remains are these kind of more quality long-term projects,
you know, like SPX, which is, you know, one point something billion right now. You can't really
scoff at these pure meme coin plays because Murad's been sort of proven right by the market. So
all the AI coins people were shilling are in the toilet. You know, I don't need to remind people the names of those things, but it was garbage.
And the meme coins are doing great, you know, Farcoin, whatever.
I don't own any of that stuff.
I only own ticker Bitcoin.
But I respect what those guys are doing much more than, say, a pump and dump play.
Like you guys are saying, we got to jump out of the cart before it explodes.
There is something to be said for the builders who are sticking to these projects long term because the value is inherent in the community that you're participating
in and then the value that comes from that growing.
Just quickly, can you tell Rock the Phil name of the token just so I can hear him shiver?
Sure, it's Harry Potter, Obama obama sonic 10 inu ticker bitcoin
greatest point on earth take my money
absolutely we need more good whales who don't want to uh dump we you know we try to have people who actually hold long term people who participate uh make content i have a bunch actually i never
sold it i love it too much. How can I sell it?
That's the best.
I love you, brother.
There you go.
That's a big soldier right there.
That 1.7 billion.
Don't you like,
if a meme coin goes to 1.7 billion,
don't you just fucking sell because where does it go from there?
Don't you just sell?
No, it goes to 10 billion.
Then 100.
At 100, you can get a little bit out.
I think that's totally reasonable.
100 bill meme coin. Yeah, absolutely.. I think that's totally reasonable. 100-bill meme coin.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like Visa.
It's like Visa level of market capital, like, you know, PayPal or something.
I mean, people forget what Frothia gets during a bull.
I mean, look at what Shiba Inu did.
Look at what Doge did.
Those are basically pure meme coin plays.
I would probably recommend...
I almost never sell anything.
Whatever I buy, it pretty much goes in a black hole for many years.
But if I was playing in the trenches and buying meme coins
and something went from whatever, 50 mil to 1.7 bill,
I'm definitely at least taking
chips off the table.
Seems like probably...
Not financial advice.
Not financial advice.
So what's the one that's 1.7?
This is your
Harry Potter
penis whatever?
That's a derivative. We don't like that one no we meant it about it
Harry Potter's penis we should launch that
I like that one
a whole different meaning to the wand
yeah you can launch it on our blog
Harry Potter's veiny wand
like a great official
Polygon meme coin, maybe.
Or Quickswap meme coin.
I love Greg from Polygon. He's awesome.
NFC guy, he's great.
I've been saying for a long time
that we should do a good...
That I've even thought about us getting involved
in a good community meme coin
that it's all
like fair launch and no team tokens or something i think something like that could be cool i i
again i'm not against meme coins i'm i'm against the pump and dump cabal pvp stuff i don't know
some people like pvp right that's why people play video games but um yeah i don't i don't i don't like that stuff no i think but yeah like
community focused stuff like doge was doge was completely fair launched right totally that's
cool um i mean i i don't so like shibinu was not fair launched but you know whatever they still
have a great community obviously um i know the person who launched that. We have up on our own,
took a Bitcoin off of Uniswap after launch. So yeah,
ours is super duper fair launch. Check the wallet distribution if you guys are curious.
HPO is 10i. How does that work though? How do you, how do you do,
it seems really hard to do a meme coin as fair launch because someone snipes,
the team snipes, they hide that they snipe how do you stop that
super hard exactly no that's one of the hardest things uh to do and i mean again not to show me
other stuff but our contract is a really good example to look at just as like a a case study
of how you can sort of mitigate those things those are a huge problem but uh what we did during our
launch is we had sort of a window of time that would have covered the time that sniper bots were attacking the new pair.
And in that time, the sell tax was set to something crazy like 80% or something like that.
So that nuked all the sniper bots.
They had to pay 80% to sell their thing in the microtransaction, whatever they were doing.
And after that, I think it was like 15 or 20 minute window, then the
contract automatically flipped back to, you know, 0% sales tax.
So things like that, you had to actually build into the contract itself, sort of mitigating
factors to prevent that kind of thing from happening.
Not easy, though.
You're exactly right.
It ruins a lot of coins.
You kind of never know if it really happens, right?
Because for all you know, you think that they didn't snipe, but really they did.
They just did it from like another account and yada yada.
That's the thing.
I know you can look at bubble maps and you can sort of do your on-chain sleuthing and stuff.
But yeah.
That's an arms race, right?
It's an arms race.
The better you get it on-chain sleuthing, the better they get
at hiding it. And, and as someone mentioned earlier, they, they know someone or whatever
that has 15 people each with a hundred accounts and, you know, they're just pumping these things
out. I mean, that's this, this is a sad thing. Like, cause I'm, I would call myself, you know,
kind of an insider in the industry. Like I know a lot of the people in the industry who put these things together.
And what do I say without bad-mouthing people that I know?
You have morals.
I mean, that's part of it.
But I don't know, man.
I don't know. It's hard to judge people that because like people do know what they're getting into so if it and it's so pvp that like
on one hand you could say hey why are you doing this that's fucked up you're screwing over like
people who don't know better but on the other hand you could say say, well, this is PvP. People know what they're getting into, and the most PvP clever person wins.
So I could see both sides.
I don't ever play on that other side, but, like, I don't know.
They sleep at night, it seems, right?
They're doing it.
I couldn't sleep at night if I did something like that.
I would probably actually have nightmares. But I don't know.
I guess watching this and knowing some of the people involved in this stuff, and I'm not going to name any –
no, I'm not going to name any coins.
But I've known people that have told me lots of stories about these things, about the cabals, about how they do it, about the people involved.
And it's just like – I don't know it's not kosher
no and you got to try to anybody
yeah if you actually would like to launch a polygon meme coin or let's say something that
will be fair uh it's important to uh at least bit predict the market, because right now we see that
A4EF has been ended.
So if you would like to launch something right now, it will be a mess.
You will put two, three times more in marketing budget in order to promote your project, etc.
So the timing and execution, of course, but the timing is everything when it comes to
MemeCoins. execution of course but the timing is everything when it comes to meme coins
i would just like to see more community ones uh maybe uh what do you guys think have you guys run into some good true community ones you're mentioning one here uh that was james anybody
else have any that they they've seen that they think are really good community focused coins that didn't end up rugging uh doge have you doge doge yeah doge is is has in my opinion the strongest
community of any of them and the most like kind of kosher community
yeah i've been following them for a while now.
They are building something.
What?
I've been following them for a while now.
And I think they are good.
They are good.
Doge.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, Doge is a funny one because, you know, one of the founders of it,
Jackson Palmer, I used to watch his interviews or his videos on YouTube a lot.
And he's a smart guy. He hates crypto now and talks trash on crypto, which is kind of interesting.
So I guess it takes someone who thinks that a lot of crypto people are scammers to launch
something that's not a scam, I guess.
And then there's Billy Marcus created it with him.
So Jackson did the tech work and it was Billy Marcus's idea.
And I know Billy, I've spent many hours on calls with him.
But yeah, so neither of them took any pre-mine or anything like that.
I think at one point, Jackson, I think, or Billy, one of them sold,
I think it was Billy, sold his, no, or maybe he didn't.
Either way, he said the amount of dough she even had was about the equivalent
of a used Hyundai or something.
So he never got rich from it or anything like
that. And he's a very, uh, I think he's a very kosher guy. Um, I've known him for some time and
he doesn't like, uh, do any scammy stuff, but, um, I don't know, like, uh, what about Brett?
What do you guys think about Brett?
think about Brett?
Kush is down-thumbing.
Anyone else? Brett.
No opinions. Okay.
I mean, Brett, like,
obviously has a strong community.
Like, they're really out there.
They're boots to the ground.
They throw events.
I don't think there's anything bad to say about Brett.
I mean, they have some really top-tier people involved.
Yeah, it's fairly solid.
I mean, it's definitely, you know, a really good token that's kind of, like, held its ground and truly survived, you know, a really good token that that's kind of like held its ground and truly survived, you know
They threw a party a pretty cool party. I was supposed to go but I was at like Queen summit with
like Charlie Lee and some of the light coin foundation, but they threw a party at the tiger
mansion Michael Turpin's tiger mansion just I think the day before or two days before.
It was a Playboy party.
I think that was a separate one, wasn't it?
The Playboy party was not at the Tiger Mansion.
That's a different one.
You're talking about rogue bunnies?
I'm telling you, like, the...
I'm telling you.
There was another one.
There was another one.
The Brett party, or the mansion party, was definitely a Playboy theme.
For sure.
Did you go to it?
I think you were with me, I think.
I had you working.
Yeah.
Sorry, you had to miss the Playboy Brett party at the Tiger Mansion.
It wasn't even on my list to go to, to be honest.
But yeah, I mean, it would have been cool, I guess.
But yeah, I knew about it.
It's funny.
That's just a normal Wednesday for Ryder anyway.
Probably the explanation why decent is can be tagged for Brett.
So quite decent coin however not I would not put
it into the I don't know top one list yeah Turpin invested in for me but you
wouldn't put it in the top the top percent of mean coins? Top one, I mean, speaking about the best coin out of here.
Well, it's not, but I mean, there's...
But it's decent, yes, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean, it's definitely got some manufacturedness to it.
I mean, I know stories about it, but it's, I never heard anything like bad about it. Just that, you know, it was like many of the successful ones kind of engineered.
you know,
a KOL plan,
there's investors,
there's OTCs,
there's kind of cabal,
that kind of stuff,
but nothing I did.
I haven't heard anything negative about Brett.
Like that they did uncouth.
Yeah,
I don't think so.
They're,
they're still holding steady.
Anybody else have any other meme coins or Nicolele you have any questions you want to ask
at some point i do want to talk about some some current news uh at some point um but yeah
go ahead nicole no no i've got some questions like prepared questions, you know, for the space, but we've kind of been in free flow.
I mean, you know, whatever.
Like, I guess, you know, it's a question of like, you know, we could talk about celebrity endorsements of meme coins would be kind of a question.
Like, what do we think about that?
Like, do those make the insider trading worse?
Or, like, is that, you know, is that just marketing?
I guess the problem, it seems, with those is that it's always some cabal that convinces a celebrity to do something.
And then, like, they are controlling the project and they screw everyone over.
And then the celebrity was just kind of like
an unsuspecting victim.
Or maybe they were involved too.
Fuck Michael Buffer.
Yeah, Joel.
By the way.
Okay, Joel, so in a space
that we were in.
He's the guy that does
Let's Get Ready to Rumble.
Totally rugged everybody like quickly
anyway sorry sorry michael buffer he does the uh the let's get ready yeah he's isn't it bruce
buff buffered dad i don't know but no that's joe buffer that dude literally rugged in like two days
that dude literally rugged in like two days.
Is that his brother?
What else?
There was the mother one.
Iggy Azalea,
I think.
Actually,
that,
I guess,
I don't think Iggy actually did bad at all.
I mean,
she,
I think she tried hard,
to be honest.
I mean,
not to be on her side or anything,
but she did. She tried really hard.
She had her meme coin, had a
pretty big community, and then
she even created the
casino.
So she turned it into, like, an actual
platform
at one point.
Is this Mother Iggy?
Mother? It's just Mother.
Yeah, it topped out at 250 mil
market cap
and now it's at 6?
It's what?
It topped out at 250 mil
and now it's at 6 mil market cap.
6 only? What?
That's crazy.
It's not even... It's number 1200 on CoinMarketCap.
Wow.
What I would love, I guess on a more positive note is, and this is one of, actually I was
going to mention this earlier when this is why I got into the things I fantasized about
in crypto that either didn't happen or maybe partially happened or failed or whatever.
But one is like team coins, you know, could the Lakers have a team coin?
tickets or, you know, a chance to win a meet and greet with, you know, LeBron or, you know,
a virtual meetup with LeBron or, you know, a discounted food at Lakers games or they airdrop
you like some playing card NFTs once in a while. I think something like that would be amazing. And
I will bet money that I will definitely bet money that someday we will
see successful versions of these kinds of things for sports teams,
musicians, maybe celebrities.
I think that's really interesting, but I've also been wondering,
when will it happen actually?
I don't know. Really don't will it happen actually i don't know
really don't but i i'm like so sure that will happen at some point personally i think it's how people end up extracting the value that is the main thing here like even even with the new like
with pump fun um obviously they eventually started sharing their revenue with the creators of the
token there's a lot of like similar platforms that have now said,
okay, the fees generated through the trading volume on V3 or whatever.
Some of it can go maybe to the holders.
Some of it can go to the actual person that created the token.
So there's still a value proposition for making sure that the token does well
without actually having to sell the token.
So you're still incentivized. you've still got a revenue stream but you don't need to dump on everyone's heads
to actually have some funds to make sure that you can uh when that's exactly when we were considering
making a polygon community uh token and uh you know like kind of endorsing it from, you know, LDA, Quickswap, myself, etc.
Like, you know, we would only do it if like Polygon would endorse it.
So we didn't do it, but it's something we were strongly considering at one point.
And we were trying to think, how can we make this super community focused and but still have like the kind of pumponomics that you would need for something to be successful or hold value over time um and how can you do it how can you fairly distribute it without snipers
how could you um um and then also you would need some kind of revenue to do some kind of marketing
for it or maintain socials or do fun campaigns right because you're not going to get you know you may get people that
will just work for free for it you certainly do with some things right like bitcoin doge
litecoin people all work for free on that right i just had a call with the litecoin foundation
yesterday they're like you know they work off of donations so there's certainly ways you could do
this one of the ways going off what dar Darren was just saying is you could just do
like a total.
okay,
here's,
here's my favorite concept of this would be,
you do a white list for all the kind of best people in the community,
the people,
and you have like a pre pre launching the token.
You have a bunch of people in the community that are competing by tweeting
by being active in some kind of you know telegram groups or whatever uh and you you whitelist a
bunch of either people or projects uh in whatever ecosystem it is i was thinking it would be cool to
do it as a multi-chain thing where you have like know, polygon and arbitrum and optimism and base all like work
together. And, uh, you know, the communities of each contribute. And then you get, you white list
people who can buy, like, call it a hundred dollars of it. Or maybe if they get higher up
on the rankings through some community voting, people can get upvoted or something. And I don't
know how you anti-sibyl it, but you have a bunch of people, you either give everyone the same allocation of call it like they could put a hundred dollars
into it. And you have 10,000 people who could put a hundred dollars. And then you take the money
from that and you put it into an LP position. Uh, you raise no funds from it other than that
money, but that money goes into an LP position. There's no team that takes any of that, but the way you could have like marketing efforts and things is just from the trading fees of the
decks. So, you know, whatever you make that 0.3%, 1%, 0.1%, whatever you put that at, you can,
there's a lot of optionality now these days, but you have that money go into a, you know, a DAO or
a little kitty, a wallet that, you know, now we could do some
marketing stuff around this, or we can maintain like a website or whatever, you know, meme
coin stuff you do.
Right.
Um, I, but, uh, all the people that got whitelisted, they're like real people.
Cause you, you know, them from the community, uh, it would require, you know, either a team
or the community to pick those people.
But I thought something like that could be cool.
Like, uh, uh, yeah, that was, that was, that was what I was noodling on for a while thinking about this.
But I just thought it was too risky.
Two sent Timmy here because this sounds a lot like what we talked about a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about InfoFi.
Yeah, I guess he's not here with his personal account.
On this though, I actually mentioned the token that Anu was launching on base.
It's happening over here. It ended up doing 3,800x.
He bought and then sold very early, so he missed a lot of it.
It's fine.
We decided never to talk about this again.
Wait, you told him to buy one and it did 3,800x and he didn't listen?
Well, no, he did buy it, but then he paper-handed it.
What profit did he make?
I have no idea.
We're not talking about this, Darren.
The fact is saying that sadness occurred.
I know a fun story, actually. That token actually launched.
That's actually the same token that I think you're going to talk about.
Is it going to do well again?
Is the question.
That's what I'm thinking.
When everything comes to Rating Back.
But yeah, actually Rocket.
It was the same premise as what I think James was talking about earlier, where that token launched.
And then anyone that bought before their public announcement of the contract address got blacklisted.
Yeah, that's actually the funny story I was just going to mention.
Yeah, maybe you could tell the story or how these things work.
Yeah, well, I mean, it was literally that.
Like, I knew a token was launching, so I was like, okay, I'll tell some people.
So I told Resmance, told Luke, actually, who's in the audience.
And then, yeah, told someone else.
I'm not sure if I'm naming him.
So he bought the – he went ahead, done some snipping before the token launched, found the contract address, bought the token, I think, three blocks after the token had launched.
It got blacklisted.
So I think he chucked like 1k into it as well.
It was quite a bit.
Got blacklisted.
And then that token obviously went on, I think,
to go from starting that, like a 10K market cap,
when Jack bought it, not Jack.
And then, yeah, went up to like 180 million.
So he was, and then he was blacklisted,
so he had to just sit and watch the value in his wallet
go up and up and up and couldn't touch it.
So he bought, this is like, this is why meme coins scare me.
Because even when you succeed, if you don't sell at the right time, that's one thing.
They could rug, right?
Like, because you just didn't get out at the right time.
Or you, like I think he said at one point he had his wallet showed like, you know, over a hundred million or hundreds of millions that he would have had.
He actually uses that.
He uses that wallet regularly as well.
So like he would go on to like actually do regular activities and there'd be like 7.2 million in this wallet.
And he'd be like.
And he just couldn't move the funds because I guess he didn't follow the rules, which was like they were like some anti-sniper rules that you weren't allowed to buy the token until they tweeted or something.
And then right when they tweet or whatever, then everybody can do it.
But if you knew the contract address or somehow found it early.
So he found it early just because he like knew some of the people involved and was snooping around and and somehow figured it out.
And they blacklisted him and like a few other people who went too early.
But look, that that meme coin did really well for a long time.
I don't know how it's doing now, but I think it's still OK or what?
What's the situation on it?
It's a meme coin.
I think it's done like 80 percent just now. What is it at now? I mean, it? It's a meme coin. I think it's down like 80 odd percent
just now. What is it at now?
I mean, it's still up a lot then.
Yeah, like 20 odd million or something.
From like
10k or whatever? So he would still be up
millions probably.
Yeah.
What, did he buy 10% of the supply
or something? I think it was 5.
Wow.
Yeah. 5% of 180 million would have been nice
yeah and there is like a bigger risk because of the insider tracking like this is a great elephant in
the room so even if the uh team is performing, the community is growing, if you have made enough from the coin, still a bunch of people can dump on you just because the coins there will be no one, for example, for showing that LPs are locked, etc.
But for insider trading, there are a lot of different opportunities how you can avoid tracking of it.
So that's kind of hard uh and i believe there
has to be a way to do it right like like what i i feel like the thing i created nobody's found
any great holes in what i said the only like pushback i got was from some people that said
no that doesn't work you can't have the community have all the supply because then there's too much risk
that the various community members together will dump.
But to me, that's safe and fair,
or maybe not safe, but that's fair.
So a lot of people I talked to about this were like,
no, you have to as a team,
even if you want it to do well,
if you don't want to dump,
you have to snipe the token so someone else doesn't even
if you're not going to sell like and i think most people will so you can't trust that but
um that was the biggest pushback i got on this but i mean if you divided the supply evenly
between call it 10 000 people and i mean it's hard to manage like you know or maybe do a thousand
people or whatever but uh if you if But if you white list all these people
and divide up the supply evenly to all these people,
there's no one person who can totally dump, right?
That's perfectly clear.
Maybe it's a fantasy, but...
Well, that's the thing in the tokenomics.
You need to just basically ensure
there's a healthy enough liquidity
that it doesn't matter who has all those tokens that they can actually sell.
So it's more about making sure that the market is liquid enough to actually be any of that.
Yeah, distribution actually creates decentralization.
So if you have your supply, for example, like 50% of it distributed for 10 or 12 QLs,
they will dump hardly as any community if it will be
distributed to them because so definitely if I would choose I would
choose a fair launch yes you should pay a huge attention to the technical side
and execution of your contract but it's way safer than for example distributing
a part of the tokens to KRLs, thinking everything
will be fine and they know what they're doing, they will promote the project in order to
save their backs.
So we see that it's not happening.
Once the launch is happening, we see, let's say, decent growth, then even you would like
to create a long term project, it will be rugged by those who have tokens.
It may be not your team, but the ones to whom you distributed it. If you're distributing it
to the whole community, the chances that they will somehow dump at one time is kind of low.
By the way, we have Daniel Mankata from Breaking Bad in the audience.
I actually had the pleasure of meeting you a couple times in person at various conferences.
If you want to come up, if you have any thoughts on this, I've given you an invite to come up and speak. If anyone else in the audience has
stories or questions or ideas or anything about this stuff, feel free to come up or request to
speak and we'll bring some people from the audience up at random. So we don't know. They
might cover your kids' ears. We don't know what they'll say here I've added a couple people here or one person but sent a couple invites the thing about
what we've been talking about is the the reason that sort of meme coin craze kicked off was one
bunk bunk was totally dead and then some altruistic wallets, I actually looked into this at one point,
well loads of Bonk and I've just never changed it and I actually got them tracked.
They've never done anything so Bonk absolutely mooned those wallets and just sat and held.
Around about that time, every token that launched was launching an absolutely massive FTV,
really low liquidity,
and all these VT tokens were just immediately going down.
Obviously, the market's to play there as well,
but a lot of it is just all of them were going down.
So when you look at a meme coin,
and you basically, you're literally getting in at ground zero like pump one you're
starting off at a tiny tiny market cap so you've actually you don't have anyone to dump on top of
you or if you do there's very little people there's not actually like a vc that's got monthly unlocks
it'll just smash every every month it'll just dump it even further wait you're saying pump fun
can't have vcs well it can but it's not like a
token that's launched a billion fdv and then like a vc's got like monthly unlocks of like one percent
of the supply because they did a 10 mil fdv like in the private round um so the reason like most
people just ship to meme coins is because they were literally getting in a grand zero.
There wasn't anyone to dump on top of them.
Like if you get in, well, it's still on pump fund.
It's what, sub 60k market cap?
I would much rather buy something that sub 60k market cap that has the potential to go up
than buy something like when Bl launched a two bill fdv
like the upside potential
the upside potential for either of those random random share the 60k market cap or a 2 billion fdv
project like every every single degenerate or even just most normal
people will always go for the one that has more
upside.
Which is a
fallacy, by the way.
That alone
shouldn't be the reason you buy something.
There could be something at $2 billion market
cap that is vastly
better
and could even have vastly better tokenomics and appeal
than something that launches at $10 and is just some random poop coin, right?
I'm not saying Blast was like the one, but Blast did have some really interesting...
What's that?
Where can I buy Pipcoin?
Poopcoin? i'm launching it
all right well any other stories anyone oh we brought up uh someone from the audience crypto crown did you have anything to say
Did you have anything to say?
GM, GM, quick swap.
I'm just a random guy from Nigeria.
So I've been listening.
I've been on the listing section for a while now,
listening to all the outside about'll say about uh mem coins and um pump down phone also i would like to say that up the phone is just
i would like to say a platform that is not is not onboarding new new members just like someone said
that um come down from you just onboarding new people to the crypto space right no, because if you look at the way the Pumptown Fund has been going,
it's rather it takes away people's money.
And someone that's just came in with the crypto space with $100 cannot,
and at the end of the day, launch a put-in-into-new project and get robbed,
will not even have the platform or the view to even explore the ecosystem
to know more about crypto rather it will give him a different um
view in crypto space that crypto is not for him or her to to be in because he came into um
the crypto space in the wrong um perspective so i think condom phone is not uh there too is not here to onboard new members into the crypto space rather
it's just like it's a casino it's not for the new members and launching launching a plan
launching a meme coin these days and see memcoin that survives in the pump don't form um ecosystem
is just one out of hundred percent that survives and those ones that survive are those that are being controlled by the
cores by the cabars people that you don't know the one that will actually survive
out of
yeah that's why i mentioned
the one thousand coin
profitable uh 97 of losses across traders and pump fun it's kind of optimistic because it's 99
uh closer to 100 actually i think yeah i've been controlled by it if you if you in a day in a day
you see that more than 2 000 coins can be be launched in a day in Pondon form and
you don't even know the one that can even climb up to a million
market cap these days. Well all of a sudden you will see that this dead
project will just rise from nowhere and get to 200 million market cap,
100 million market cap, that is after a year and not everybody will be patient to hold that so i think memcoin these days doesn't
have utility but if um polygon can come into um launching a memcoin with a good utility and a good
supply because to no mix matters how you distribute your token matters and the way you build your community matters because building
community with paid calls will not help rather you just give it a hype because
when a project is being promoted with calls or all these influencers these
days you will see that after an hour or day or two days when this hype is down
your project is will totally die off but when a
project is being built with community zero payments you will see it as a
different shape entirely so that is just my own view of how this memcoin
thing work and secondly you see in ecosystem this day you see that memcoin
is always the face it brings out the face of the
project how they trans how fast the transaction fee is how smooth it is like looking at siu now
siu when siu came out when siu started making waves as at last year you will see that siu came
out with memcoin trading and it brings out the vibe if you people now begin to switch
from Solana to see because of the cheap transaction fee and every other thing
how smooth it is interface how like how smooth it is for the new users or body
new year and you see people today talking about you ecosystem and Solana
ecosystem people now are now switching from
Solana to Siu because of how smooth it is and the rate of
rock now in Solana the rate of rock issue is is not it will not be compared
the way it is on Solana so that is how people this ecosystem began to bloom in the people everybody knows about su now
so i see so memcoin is always good to bring in
bring it in into an ecosystem but are you bringing it
in with a good perspective not to rugged the community
and or not having a command uh a memcoin that has good utility there are
memcoins that have utilities some can be gaming some can be betting some can be
Just random things
So bringing a meme coin you must make sure and you want this meme coin to be sustained with
Sustained for a long period of time. You must build something that
Has to go along with it not just for the hype because it's for just for the IP people with definitely people
We definitely don't because pump the firm has given them different
Scene view to memcoin unlike it is before
See look at dodge dodge has never dumped the way other meme coins has dumped in
Sheep has never dumped the way other meme coins are dumping but now pump since pump don't fall came into the game people are not beginning to see meme coin
as as as pump and dump projects they don't see it as something to hold but
when you come into this we come into it with different perspective giving it a
utility I think it's something that people would like to hold and
mind you that sharing distribution matters a lot how it started is the foundation the foundation
of how this project started matters a lot because you cannot expect someone to snipe and hold
projects if you if you ban snipers from entering at the early stage they
will not fuck the chat up because these people are the people that fuck chat up
at the beginning snipers they fuck up chat at the beginning you see they will
meet the chat sometimes dev doesn't developers don't don't have this
intention of rocking a project but how snipers tampered with their chats
initially makes them rogue.
So that's just my own contribution and my own point on it. Good point, Scriptocrow. Thanks.
Alex, you have your hand up. Welcome to the show. Good to see you.
Hey. So I didn't get a lot of your scandals or whatever.
There's a couple going on right now that are certainly interesting.
But man, talking about them while they're happening, people really, it's so true that
people would rather be scammed than hear that they're being scammed. But, you know, the one
thing I want to say is, of course, you know, people aren't dumping on Doge.
Doge has no founding team, right? The whole point of Doge was, at first it started out as a joke, but it ended up being the first test case in a coin that could actually operate without a founding team, right?
It was the first non-foundational coin.
They left, right?
So they set the parameters and left to see if that actually could function.
That was what a lot of those coins were in the beginning.
I feel like I should write a book about actually the origins of a lot of this stuff because I feel like it's getting muddied over time.
But what that was in the beginning, they were kidding at the beginning,
but what they did is they set the parameters and then they left and they wanted to see if it could
operate. And that's basically like a company operating with no CEO, no heads of anyone,
no C-suite, and just continuing to pump out product. And that's actually something that
never existed before.
So it was pretty shocking when it actually continued to operate. Right now, we kind of
take it for granted that it just does that. But it didn't have any utility. What it was is a proof
of concept, right? The idea that it could function without actually having any head there.
There is only one use case for products like that that nobody is doing it, but that's a side note.
The utility aspect almost never takes any part in any discussion in any of these meme coins.
in any discussion in any of these meme coins, the only ones that tend to have any sort of
future tend to be actually CTOs, these community takeovers, because that's actually a bunch of
people who want to make this thing work. The founding team ones, it's difficult because you
have to actually see not just the tokenomics, but also why did they do this token? Because fundamentally, if you're buying
into something, what did you buy in for, right? It's not necessarily about snipers or things like
that. It's really about, are you buying into something that's half disclosed? Because the problem with a lot of the meme coins is that most of what you're buying into is the exit strategy, right?
So a lot of what's happened with meme coins is a discussion that's happened way before most of the buyers ever get involved, right? The discussion of what's going to trade, when, who's going to buy
and sell and when, all of that is happening offline way before anyone really gets involved.
Those are separate discussions and they're already taking place of like what things are,
who's like the main buyers of like, okay, let's work with this coin and we're going to sell it.
We're going to pump it.
Here's how we're going to do it.
All of those things are happening completely separately.
That's why it's really hard for most people to do well with meme coins
because they're not part of the discussions of who's actually, who the big players are.
And what you're really doing is becoming exit strategy for a lot of those big players.
That's why it's an area for advanced people, not really an entry area for people who don't
really understand how crypto works, who the players are in crypto and things like that.
This is not an area for people who don't know how tokenomics works, how, you know, communication
happens in this space, how money gets transferred, how to read wallets and things like that.
This is not an area for newbies, right? This
is an area for advanced people. So if you're in it just for fun, then have fun, right? But this is
not the area for people who don't know what's going on and who the players are. This is definitely the advanced section, in my opinion, of trading and of crypto and of tokenomics, because there's so much that happens that is not public that it's so easy to get burned in this area.
Yeah, that's the topic of the show, of this episode. Yeah, that's how I look at it,
too. If you're just like a lone wolf out there trying to make your way and you don't understand
what's happening, you don't know the right people, you don't know, I don't know, I imagine it's
probably pretty hard to succeed in this but maybe is there
anyone from the audience who thinks differently and we have a few new people on the stage dr pepe
uh yeah do you want to introduce yourself uh like 15 seconds or less please and then tell us your
thoughts sure um good afternoon or good evening everyone um so i'm kind of a base chain maxi and I'm a founder along with a group of other folks of a token called Based Pepe on the base chain.
And a lot of what we're talking about in this conversation really hits home with us.
And we certainly took this into consideration when we were creating our token.
And one of the key things with that is we have no team allocation and we rely on Uniswap v3 pairs in order to generate income.
We blacklisted snipers.
That's what I was talking about earlier. I don't know if you were listening.
Absolutely, yes.
So I think that's sort of the way moving forward is fair launches with no team allocation and the team not requiring to dump
tokens in order to make money. I did just want to ask because I understand QuickSwap is making a
move over to base and that's extremely optimistic for us and something we're really excited about.
So I just wanted to know what exactly did you guys see in the base chain that made you want to
venture over there. Any thoughts on that?
Oh, I'm sorry.
I was muted.
Yeah, so Quickswap has always been super ETH and ETH L2 aligned.
So, you know, most of the chains we're on are either ETH or ETH L2 aligned. So, you know, most of the chains we're on are either ETH or ETH L2s.
And over time, we just got a lot of requests from either our community members or community
members from base or a lot of projects. I can't count and Darren can speak to this, but,
you know, there's a million projects we've talked
to that are like, okay, cool. Uh, you're on Polygon. That's, that's great. But, um, are you
also on base? Cause we have a deployment on base or, you know, we're thinking about starting there
or focusing there or whatever. And we just got so many requests, hundreds of requests, um,
from community members, builders, et cetera, over time.
And it was just an obvious thing to do.
And base has, you know, a ton of volume, a ton of users, a ton of demand.
And it's a really, it's a great chain.
Thank you so much.
And it's just great to see that you guys, despite being such a big player in this industry,
are really bringing this meme coin conversation to the forefront
and all the things that can be harmful for traders and newbies in the game.
So just really grateful for you guys for hosting this space
and introducing all these people to all this incredible information.
Thank you. Appreciate that.
Yeah, we're definitely fans of base and are deploying multiple things onASE and going to be doing a lot there, quite a bit, actually.
Darren, you have any thoughts on that?
I know Darren was quite excited about BASE.
quite excited about base yeah no I mean obviously I mean over the last maybe year or so base has
basically been the Solana of the Ethel tips where like all the users have congregated for meme
coins and the DGENs reside and they've built they've built a really strong community obviously
quick swap is a community deck everything is governed actually by the community for Quickswap.
Obviously, as Rock mentioned earlier, the community got 97%-ish of the token supply.
They make all the decisions.
90, yeah, he says ish because it was 96.75.
But yeah, basically 97% of the tokens went directly to the community just for using the product.
I mean, quick swap is basically the epitome of fair launch before like fair launch was a thing.
The token literally entered circulation via just people supplying liquidity for quick. There wasn't like an initial liquidity pool. There wasn't all these other things that was
literally just supply liquidity for quick earn quick and then
some community members made a liquidity before um the only way that the quick token has ever
really entered circulation is through governance or um liquidity rewards for the for the community
that supplied liquidity um but yeah i mean um it's uh it's exciting obviously we've got a lot of uh people that
want to work with us on base um a lot of uh things coming up yeah yeah the base team has
been very supportive a lot of people from the base uh team um different builders there of like
i mean really people have been begging us to come to base for a long time.
A lot of our close allies and yeah, so we're excited.
And I think it's very aligned with, you know, like our ethos, which is part of Polygon's ethos, which is to scale Ethereum.
That's what Polygon was built for.
Polygon was built for. And so I see, you know, base and Arbitrum and Optimism, all these as,
you know, great allies in that mission to focus on, you know, scaling Ethereum. I mean, to me,
Ethereum of the smart contract chains is, you know, the most decentralized by far.
The only thing more decentralized to me, well, I guess it depends on the metrics
you're looking at. I'll be nuanced about it. But Bitcoin to me is the most decentralized.
ETH, I would say is second most, but with some caveats, I would say Doge and Litecoin
as examples are in some ways even more decentralized than ETH
because they were fair launch and there was no pre-mine.
So that's one thing, I guess, against ETH.
But that has also allowed ETH to build some pretty incredible stuff
that they actually had funds in the beginning.
So that's the plus and minus of being fair launch.
I mean, I think you can actually draw a lot of parallels in the beginning. So that's the plus and minus of being fair launch or raising funds or not raise the size.
You can draw a lot of parallels
between all these L2s
that are just fragmented
and all
the pump fund meme coins.
Obviously the liquidity can only go so far.
The actual liquidity
within the Ethereum ecosystem
like L2s alone is like
20, 30, 40 billion.
But it's all on like 4 billion on this chain,
a billion on that chain.
It's the exact same premise as what we've seen
over meme coins over the last maybe year or so
because of the pump fund
and all the meme coin launch pads
where instead of all that liquidity getting directed
into maybe one singular place,
like a little bit has went into Fortcoin, a little bit has went into Bitcoin.
I think, obviously, that's probably a tiny portion of why we've not seen a really heavy altcoin market,
because everything's just so scattered about.
Obviously, that and nuclear war.
The what?
Obviously that and then nuclear war.
Yes, World War III is probably not helping us a whole lot.
All right, we've got a bunch of hands.
Let's see.
Oh, Lev, how are you doing?
Hello.
Good to see you.
Hello.
Just, you know, been listening the last little bit,
and exciting that you guys are moving to base.
I think that's a really smart move.
I wouldn't call it moving to base.
Just to be clear, we're deploying on base.
We're still here on Polygon and love Polygon and bullish on Polygon.
But yeah, another deployment.
I mean, we have, I think, I don't know, eight deployments now.
But this is one of the most exciting ones, that's for sure.
most exciting ones that's for sure i think so i think it's going to capture a lot of the market
I think so.
I think it's going to capture a lot of the market.
and like in this kind of sea of you know kind of nonsense like we're talking about here it's it's
you know it's the stuff with utility that really ultimately will do well i think everyone here
knows that um you know uh but i want to talk about something that's totally not you know uh what you know
this has anyone uh seen this 50 states live um guy on pump fun so it's it's it kind of falls
it's a story that kind of falls into what we're talking about here uh this guy set out to beat
the world record to visit all 50 states in the
fastest amount of time live streaming the entire time on pump fun um but kind of like um what i
think alex was saying earlier it's like if you don't know what you're getting into you don't
know the players behind the scenes it's like this guy was you know slow rugging the entire time
basically from the moment he woke up until he stopped streaming every day, capturing all the liquidity, essentially.
And then when he completed the record, immediately dumped his dev tokens.
This was yesterday.
And so it's, you know, obviously tanked. And this is, this is just one of those things where, you know, it's, people will get invested and not even know what they're, what they're seeing kind of happen before their eyes, you know.
And in this space, it's like it kind of brings shame because there is there is kind of like a, you know, a real potential for creators to to move into the crypto space and to do legitimate things.
But when, you know, people give it a sour name, it's it's it's it's very tough to to gain public sentiment.
But that's why I think, you know, things like base are going to be that bridge for people,
if that makes sense.
I like base as a bridge, a gateway drug for people
a lot more than Solana, or at least the pump.
I mean, not just, not really Solana,
but the pump fun gambling stuff is what worries me,
you know, just because people get burnt and then maybe they don't come back.
But like Coinbase has done a great job of onboarding people.
I mean, now they're almost onboarding people without even onboarding them.
Like they're like Trojan horsing people.
in a good way by, for example, you can hold, you could do DeFi now on Coinbase's, you know,
internal centralized app.
You could do DeFi now.
Well, they announced this week or last week that you'll actually be able to trade through Dex on the Coinbase app.
I mean, there's a couple of issues on that.
Go ahead.
I mean, there's like a few,
there's like some legal issues.
I don't even want to deal with it
because, you know, Coinbase is always,
on good and bad, right?
They're always kind of skirting things
and then trying to figure out how to,
you know, change the law in order to make it, make what they're
doing work.
And there's benefit to that.
But there's also, you know, this idea of kind of trying to bully the law into what you want
to do.
You know, right now, what they're doing is basically violating a broker rule.
Everybody needs to know about this rule.
I'm not even going to get into it right now because this is such a it's a huge deal that it was supposed to be repealed and it wasn't.
I'm not going to get into it.
But in any event, one of the the the problems about kind of the back end issue, there's a few issues here, right?
I have been approached a number of times
from people who were like,
hey, I wanna make a meme coin, like, can we do it?
And let's just pull this stuff together.
There are a few problems with that
because most meme coins, right, are community driven.
They're not individually driven
right so if you want to have a meme coin it's sort of well where's your community do you have
one do you know how to build one like go do that first and then we'll talk about pulling together
the coin um but for for many people and and i've been brought in on this also hey i'm a i'm a
celebrity or i'm a whatever right right? And I want to go create
it or I have something that's a recognizable piece of IP and I want to create a meme coin around it.
And I keep thinking about like the hot girl or whatever it is, who probably found someone or a
group of people who are not scrupulous, who are like, let's go make a bunch of money with this thing.
And then they create their meme coins. And the group of people who are advising her are then basically designing the rug around whatever the value of the IP or recognition
or celebrity or whatever it is. A lot of that is what's happening.
I have worked with, and I'm sure there are other people in here who have worked with people who are
first in family money, right? Whether they're celebrities or athletes or people who made money
in crypto or something like that, people who are first in family money very rarely understand money in general, right?
It's like the first time they've ever gotten money.
They don't understand how to make more of it or how to keep it.
It's just a big paycheck to them, but it's the same as living paycheck to paycheck.
It's just a bigger number.
They don't really understand a lot about money.
And so someone tells them,
let's go make a bunch of money with the thing that you now have recognition. Let's go make a
bunch of money. And they just say, yes, they're not great at determining the character of the
people around them. They're not particularly great at understanding business opportunities. They're
very lucky if they understand one of those things. They're very, very lucky if they have someone
close to them that can help them with that. Most of them don't, right? And so they end up with a
group of people who will enter them into one of these scammy kind of things and will ruin their reputation and hurt
their community by doing this. And I'm often, I don't know if it's often, I really don't know,
like I am sometimes brought in and I will say, well, this is a terrible idea. This doesn't work.
Nobody's going to be able to make money over the long term with this. This is basically a way to
get money quickly.
And then it's at everyone else's expense.
And then they'll say, oh, you're a terrible person.
Get out of here.
And I'm like, okay, well, fine, I'm out.
But this is how a lot of these celebrity scams end up happening.
It's usually somebody who has some asset and there's a lot of people around them that are trying to take advantage of
them and the asset that they have. If you make a lot of money in crypto, first, don't tell anybody
because you probably, this is the first time you've ever had money and you need to learn how
to manage money because you probably don't know how.
The second is don't tell anybody because there immediately you're going to find yourself surrounded by people who will be happy to relieve you of that money.
And third, the meme coin people somehow will find you, right?
And they will tell you, I have a great way.
It's foolproof.
You're going to make a fortune.
Look at all the people making money.
People with legitimate businesses will say, look at all the mean coin people making
money let's make a coin or whatever and it's like does this this doesn't even make sense to
blockchain what are you doing like why are we doing this so um first of all a lot of people
in meme coins are not making money a few people are making a lot of money.
Most people are losing a lot of money.
You should know that just outright.
That's just the way the meme coin situation is.
There's a lot of lies going on in meme coins,
but most people are not making a lot of money in meme coins.
That's not how it works, right?
Most people are losing money in meme coins. That's not how it works, right? Most people are losing money in meme coins.
Second is, if you want to build a community using meme coins, then do that. But build a real
community. Like, really build a community. It's not easy. But if you want to, like, dedicate
yourself to building a real community, then do it. But know that dropping a token is not the end goal, right?
It's the beginning.
It's like your go-to-market.
You just started.
Now you've got to actually do all the work of making that, you know,
whole business viable.
Build the community.
Use the token to make either the community viable or make the money, like make that community have, right? To basically be your call to action
and bring other people into your community
and fundraise for your community, right?
Like there's a lot of things you can do with these,
but I don't see any of that happening.
All I see is number go up.
Like these things can be really powerful things.
There's a great thing that you can do with this stuff. Like,
there's a great stuff that you could do with it. You can use them. They should be like, you know,
number one things that go along with charity things, right? Or number one things that go along
with school functions. Or you could do them with just community builders in general. Like, you know,
I mean, you could use them for AA. You could use them for all sorts of things, right? Like,
you could use them for your own personal groups, like, for large groups. Like, if know, I mean, you could use them for AA. You could use them for all sorts of things, right? Like you could use them for your own personal groups, like for large groups. Like if you've got like a sports team or something like building community, right? So make sure that you
understand that the token is a representation of your community and the value that people find in
your community, not about pumping that coin. Those are very, very different things. So if you can
keep those things separate, then you can understand exactly how meme coins can actually become very valuable things completely independently from the rest of what crypto coins do.
Coins do very different things.
You don't worry about what a Solana coin does.
It's a different thing.
Meme coins are not Solana coins.
They don't work the same way. They're not polygon coins. They don't work the same way. Just function, just worry about
the function of meme coins. But remember, these are community coins. So you have to understand
what your community is doing, what value your community brings. Are these bringing people into
your community? Are they strengthening your community? Are they supposed to be like
insider things? Are they supposed to bring people from the outside into your community?
What are they doing? And then make sure that's like basically the sole thing that that token
is doing. That is the thing that brings value to your token. Alex uh just wondering uh because you said a lot of interesting things there um if you were
to give sort of a checklist because you are talking to a lot of people who probably don't
come from money or don't have exposure to a lot of money if you were to give sort of a checklist
on what people should be looking at when considering meme coins that they should invest in, what would that include?
So I would say first, when you have a, if you're, and I actually have one informal
plug for my book, right?
It's an O'Reilly book called Understanding DeFi.
I do talk about meme coins in there and you'll actually see what people look at
for meme coins. It's in there also. However, one of the things that I look at is first,
do you have a sufficient community? You've got to aim for something like at least
5,000 people for a viable community. I know people say, oh, a smaller community is viable.
Not really. It's not really viable. You need at least 5,000
people in some one-to-many medium, right? So that means like some social media medium. That means
like a Discord community or Twitter or X, whatever the hell it is. I still call it Twitter. I will
not stop calling it Twitter. I just can't. It's just, it's ingrained in me. I can't stop. Or some other social medium.
It doesn't really matter how. The point is that you have to be able to get messages out
to your community and from your community to you, right? All of the community needs to be able to
speak to one another electronically. So you have to have some forum where you guys can all meet.
And you need at least 5,000 for that to be a self-perpetuating community. So the other thing that you need
is essentially a tokenomic model that makes sense. And I love your model that I think you were the
one that said, um, no, uh, like you want fair launches and no, um, no founder shares and things
like that. That's what you need. A lot of people have founder shares
that are like 60 to 80% founder shares, et cetera.
That doesn't work.
Or like deals, you want like special shares
or shares that they have for like KOLs or stuff like that.
You don't need that stuff.
It's not about getting your brand known.
It's about building legitimate community. You can't
buy legitimate community. There are people who are botting their communities. Those bots aren't
community, right? Bots aren't community. Bots can only help you rug people. They can't help you
build community. You've got to do it a person at a time, legitimate person at a time. Remember,
things like Doge took years and they happened one person at a time, right? They happened like,
it happens slower than you want, but it happens. Third, have a central conceit. Have something
that you're all about, right? Something that unites everyone together. You're about something.
It doesn't mean that you're against other things. It just means there's something that brings you
all together. Either you have a sense of humor about a particular thing, or you're about saving
the whales, or you're about, you know, like changing education, like adding more STEM in a particular,
like say you're all in a particular school district, right?
And you want to add more STEM classes there or whatever it is.
Find some central conceit.
Not everyone has to be in crypto, right?
That's the thing.
This is not about crypto.
You can actually do a lot of stuff offline and
bring people into crypto that way but this is not about everyone having like being convinced about
crypto it's about everyone uniting around something so have some central conceit if you
don't have a central conceit then you don't have a community because communities are about a thing, right? About something that unites people, right? So have something. If there is pushing forward that story, that central conceit both ways, right?
So the founding team is talking about that thing that unites you guys, that what you're planning on doing with that.
How are you planning on pushing forward that narrative?
Or are you just even talking about it? Is it some issue that you guys want to discuss, right? Is there, I don't
know if it's conservation or maybe it's economics or it's whatever. It doesn't even matter, right?
But you're talking about it. And the people in your community are talking about it too. It's not
a one-way discussion, right? The people in your community are talking. The
difference between a cult and a community is communication, right? Cults have one-way
communication. Communities have bi-directional communication, so they have to be talking too.
That makes everybody interactive, and that means your community will become your acolytes and they'll
start bringing people in. That's actually a lot of how Doge got built. So you want to have it
be about something. It can just be about decentralization. It could be about, it could
be about anything. It could be about something crypto related. It could be about something
completely separate, but it has to be about something. I mean, it can be about counterculture, who cares,
right? But it has to be about something. So when I look at the ones that have done something
underneath, that's what I have found, right? They may have different economic models,
they may have different, like the economic models, honestly, may or may not make sense. Later on, they may not have discovered their use case, but the underlying community is what carried them through.
Now, I would love for Doge to actually use the utility it has, but the community itself doesn't care.
So for me, like I'm not really part of the community, so I don't have a say in whether or not they actually use their utility. But, you know, that's for the community to decide. But the point matters if there's a coin more than if
there's utility with these uh with these um coins does that make sense
absolutely thank you so much appreciate that
we had a couple more hands up.
Waterbender, did you get a chance to speak at all?
And then EAC can go after that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't think I have any other thing to say.
You all have just said it all.
But my own contribution is that I don't think that there is a difference between the devs that want to rock a coin and the
buyers that want to make profits all of them are just they're just looking for
profit and making profits like if you want to make profits from it is from
people's money so I don't think't think there's any difference between them.
You understand, right?
Yeah, that's a really fair point.
Yeah, that's a really fair point.
We'll get an echo there.
Get an echo there.
that's a lot of so it's a fair point it's a fair point but i would say i don't agree that
That's a lot of rocks.
So it's a fair point.
making um profit means like getting money from someone else uh or taking money from someone else
uh i'm not a fan of like when aoc says if you have a billion dollars you didn't make it you took it
i don't agree with that i mean there are certainly people out there who've done unscrupulous things to make money,
but I don't think that's the general way that capitalism works.
I think, you know, you can make a great product.
I mean, let's look at Ethereum.
You know, they made a great product, Vitalik and team and foundation community over the many years.
But I don't think they like were you know taking money from people but your general point is correct i mean both sides are
trying to make money right it's a good point
that's why i say if you're going to play in that arena i mean you know it's pvp
you're waiting to dump i mean most of these people in the trenches are they're waiting to dump just like the devs right they're trying to figure out what i guess the hard part was you
know early on like we didn't know this i didn't know it was pvp you know i I remember, you know, going through CoinSniper and I'd go through like pages and pages and pages of meme coins looking for like different ICOs that are happening.
that, you know, when you're watching some of these influencers,
like, you tend to notice different trends.
And, like, it, like, got kind of weird because I eventually, like,
consolidated it into, like, noticing, like, a couple of different projects
different projects that they were um actually um well shilling and you'd notice that like only
that they were actually, well, shilling.
three or well two out of the three would actually launch or like the other three would just rug out
like as if they were just sucking the liquidity out of one of them i don't know maybe it's me
um but that that was just early on and and i think think we didn't know it was PvP.
It only seems like recently, through Solana, has it become truly PvP.
And I think that was more pumped up fun.
I just wanted to comment briefly and just say it doesn't have to be PvP.
And, you know, I don't want to overly show,
but there are projects out there that are genuinely fair
with no insiders and no allocations and no KOLs,
getting a bunch of supply and stuff where it's truly just,
and snipers are blacklisted so just
look out there for the right projects guys and please just be aware head on a swivel
and do your due diligence and just be meticulous using don't just pick projects that are you know
the shiny coin that's pumping hard just really look at communities look at token
did he run for others yeah i can't hear anything either
so that's sad we're oh, oh, there you are.
Okay, so EAC, you have your hand up?
Yeah, I just wanted to add something that like the EAC token does
that is kind of super special.
We have like a V3 liquidity pool
and the members that add to that
like main liquidity pool,
we airdrop them biweekly
for how much they hold in the liquidity pool. So, we airdrop them biweekly for how much they hold
in the liquidity pool.
So then it becomes like not a situation where they have to
like dump to make profits.
You, the holders are making profits each
and it encourages liquidity to build that way
in a like a decentralized,
it's always their funds to pull out or put more in. And yeah, so I wanted to
share that and just say, yeah, thanks for having me up. It's an honor to be up here. And
also, I wanted to add to the conversation on like crypto Twitter is kind of really like small
for like the social media influencers that we have in the space.
So when I checked earlier with like GBT on like how many people kind of stay in this space after like getting coming in, like when Trump launched a coin, like it's not accurate to this,
but it said like around 38% would stay stay in after getting wrecked so that's
like still like his million followers 38 percent coming into crypto and staying after like that's
that's huge for onboarding onboarding the normies so we should really like encourage like social
media influencers to get involved but uh you know obviously, if people not getting wrecked would encourage more people to stay. So encourage good, good behavior, but it's still kind of good for the space to, to get these influencers who are, because we're really niche, and we want to go mainstream. And that's what's going to change the game.
game. EAC is about, we think that the mass adoption event is going to be the gamers,
the web three game that finally gets launched. And that's the mass adoption event. But yeah,
thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's a fair point. I bet you there's a lot of people who
bought Trump who never would have touched crypto, but they got it because they were Trump fans.
Yeah, the difference, though, is that a lot of them aren't actually moving into anything else.
You know, they're really just staying with whatever Trump does.
And I wouldn't call him necessarily, that's not really a KOL, like he's launching his own thing.
So he's not saying buy these other things.
He's really saying buy my thing and that's it. So I don't know that he's advocating anything else.
I was actually just really disappointed personally when I thought there was going to be a Bitcoin
fund. There was supposed to be actually, there was a statement that there was going to be this
Bitcoin reserve and that there was going to be this secondary reserve with a bunch of, you know,
there was going to be like five select other tokens, like of the top 15, there was going to
be like five other tokens. And it turns out that those are actually just going to be in his fund.
So he's just going to be another holder, another wealthy
holder of
Bitcoin and of these other
funds. And so that
was just kind of a disappointment.
But I don't
see that moving into the
larger...
I don't know that that's completely true.
Are you saying...
Maybe I misheard.
So are you saying for Bitcoin?
Because there will be a Bitcoin fund most likely.
That $3 billion fund is actually in Trump's, the world financial.
That's the $3 billion fund.
World Liberty.
Sorry, World Liberty.
World Liberty Financial is holding the $3 billion fund. That's a personal
I don't even know about a $3 billion fund. What was that? You're just saying that's World Liberty
five, but that's separate from there are certainly senators and Congress people that are trying to
have a Bitcoin reserve. That is still very much on the table, I think. To my knowledge, the one that was being spoken about turned out to be the one that he was
moving forward with and on board with.
It turned out to be the World Liberty one.
If there's a second one, hooray.
But I've heard nothing really if that's, you know, one is being built up.
What I heard was there was all this motion that was, you know, there's going to be this fund.
And then the next I heard, you know, then there was Powell saying, no, I can't make a fund because that's not within my powers.
Fair point.
Then there was this statement saying we're putting together this.
There was a news report saying we're putting together this $4 billion fund.
And then Trump said, no, that's fake news.
We're not putting together a $4 billion fund.
And then there was this statement saying the $3 billion fund was being put together for world liberty.
world liberty. So that's where it is right now. And anyway, moving on from that, that's just one
So that's where it is right now.
of those things where I'm hoping that there will still be a fund. That's a national fund as opposed
to a personal fund. But that's, you know. So Cynthia Rumis has definitely been trying to write, and
there's been iterations of this, and they're
working on it bipartisan,
a Bitcoin reserve. Certainly
they are definitely still trying to do this.
I hope that that happens.
I think it will.
There's a lot of political will for it.
I mean,
this is, yeah,
this has been, I mean, one of the most
talked about things. I, yeah, I think, are you talking about when they said like, um, Solana,
Cardano and XRP or whatever? That, as far as I know, there's a separate amount that's being
purchased by world Liberty. Um, so that's a separate fund again, a private fund, but I would be, I'd be super bummed if like China ends up with a Bitcoin fund before we do like a national fund.
And I mean, as if we get one, that's, that's great. I just would be like, you know, I really don't need them to beat us in this.
I really don't need them to beat us in this.
I mean, but, you know, they're going to get a reserve, a Bitcoin reserve.
And I would prefer that we actually have one before they do.
But it's not my call, obviously.
But I'm just disappointed right now that we're not farther ahead in this.
Yeah, me too.
I mean, I personally am not a fan of the U.S. holding any cryptocurrencies,
probably outside of Bitcoin at this point.
I don't think generally, and even Bitcoin I have reserves about.
reserves about, I mean, pun intended, not intended really. But, um, so I don't think the U S or any
I mean, pun intended, not intended really.
country should be picking winners and losers in that way. I don't think that, uh, the U S should
own stocks. I don't even like that. They own like these mortgage backed security type instruments.
I, I mean, some people would argue, okay, well, what if they just can buy ETFs as
part of their quantitative easing or tightening as one of their levers they pull? I don't like
that. That is what other countries have done to prop up prices and that ends in disaster.
I think owning, I mean, the definition of communism is owning the means of production. So when governments hold equities, they are now owning the means of production, some percent of it, whether that's 1%, 10% or whatever they end up holding.
There are some countries that like, I think Japan, like the government owns, you know, some pretty big percent of all the equities, which is not good.
That's like
it leads to bad outcomes i mean one it's just like a type of communism and two they shouldn't
be picking winners or losers and they shouldn't be propping up these markets so yes um so yeah
my issue and it really isn't the ownership as much as the vested interest in many of the markets, like what Bush one originally
wanted to privatize Social Security, because that's, you know, originally we were talking
about Social Security running out. One of the things that he talked about doing was privatizing
it and have everybody investing in it. But then that there is then, even though there's no
there's no personal holding, there's no government holding in Social Security.
But then there's a vested interest in the government in making sure that the markets stay up because otherwise you have a bunch of retirees that have no money, which is what we end up with anyway.
But so having a government vested interest in any market is what I have a problem with because there's no free market in that. But for this, I actually do
think that when there is an alternate financial system, it's actually in any economic system's
vested interest, it's in their best interest to be able to store value in alternate economic
systems such as they are, wherever they are, right? They should be able
to transfer assets back and forth and be able to store assets so that they have a safety net.
So if there is some problem with whatever fiat currency or whatever economic model they're in,
they should be able to go back and forth. That's why we need to build an alternate financial
system. I think it's actually very important that there's an alternate system and that
economies are free to use them so that there's, you know, that economy won't collapse. That's for
the safety of the people. They don't have a say like that, like the government isn't able to
manipulate the price of that particular market, but they're able to access it.
They can use it, and it provides some amount of safety for the assets within that economy.
It guarantees that that economy won't collapse, at least to zero.
That's really what it's about, is saving that economy. So I think that economy should be free to go between different financial systems,
or at least provide a safety net for the assets within that economy. And so that's why one of the
main reasons why we have to continue to work to provide an alternate financial system, everything
relying on the dollar is dangerous. And I've talked about this many times before. But if we don't have economies,
and this is one of the reasons why I think they want to put value into Bitcoin is because, look,
if something happens to the dollar and they have everything in the dollar, like the dollar is
underpinning every other economy, well, then they're fucked, right? So at least if they have
some of their assets in Bitcoin, they've got something that isn't based on the dollar.
So they've got something that's underpinning that.
I think that that's safe.
So that's one of the reasons why we want to have something that is not.
So I'm a little, just so you can clarify.
So are you saying the government, do you think, do you agree or disagree that the government should or should not hold equities?
This is not about equities.
This is about Bitcoin.
Equities, no.
I don't think government workers should hold equities.
I don't think that the government should hold equities.
This is not about holding stock, right?
When I worked in the government, I had to divest myself of all stock other than things
that were either in blind trust or managed by someone
else. When I worked at the SEC, right, there's a clear reason for that. But I think that happens
in all government because you cannot have a vested interest in something that might come before you,
right? I think all government workers have to divest themselves of whatever it is that they're holding. They
shouldn't hold anything. I think it's crazy. What about ETFs? What? What about like S&P 500?
Including ETFs. I think it's crazy that anybody in government holds any security whatsoever. I
think that all of them should be in blind trust. They shouldn't know what they have. I think they should all be managed by third parties, that they have no idea what's in
there, that they should all have 10b5 plans.
They have no idea how they're being managed.
They're being managed by someone else who has their best interests, right?
But they're not being managed personally.
That's what you give up when you go into government service.
You can't have it both ways. There are so many rules for lawyers when you go into government service. You can't have it both ways.
There are so many rules for lawyers when you go into government and out of government that you're not allowed to work on specific things.
When you go into government, when you leave government, those should apply to literally all government workers.
Because you can't have that conflict of interest.
You can't have that conflict of interest.
You don't get to work both sides of the table, right?
You don't get to work both sides of the table.
You don't get to rule on something and then also have an interest in that ruling.
That's literally like the meaning of the spoil system, which we got rid of with Andrew Jackson, right?
You can't have that.
You don't get your hands in the honeypot when you are in the
government. So absolutely no, nobody gets to have access to anything when they're in the government.
If you really, really, really have to know what you're holding and you have to maintain control
of that stuff, then you don't get to be in the government. Like, if that's the thing for you, you need to
control that stuff, then government work is not for you. That's just the way it is. You can't be
elected, and you can't work in the civil service. It's just not for you. That's okay. That's okay.
It's for most people. It's okay. It's not for you. You can't work in state government, you can't work
in local government, and you can't work in federal government. There's many other jobs for you, but none of those.
So let's pick that apart a little. I generally agree with your premise. I think this is like
on the lines of lobbying where I'm not 100% sure we shouldn't have lobbying or some form of it.
I think we shouldn't. I mean, even campaign donations become very questionable. And then,
yeah, holding assets that you're now making laws around.
Of course, there's big questions here.
One of the negatives, though, of not allowing, and I like the blind trust idea.
I mean, that's, I think, a requirement for the president, right?
Something along those lines.
It's supposed to be, but that's not the way he's working right now.
But yes, you're supposed to have it in a blind trust where you have no idea what you hold and you have no control over it.
And you're not supposed to even talk to the people about it, right?
Yeah, you don't have anything and you have a 10B5, so you've got no operational control.
What is a 10B5?
A 10B5 plan is essentially something where you make a plan out when you have no inside information.
And it tells you essentially
you put, you know, limits, you know, buy, sell, et cetera, on that plan and it's executed by a third
party. So you can't make any changes to it when you have any inside knowledge on anything and the
execution is done automatically. So at no time during the execution of that, can you actually be accused of having
inside information, even if technically you had inside information when the plan was executed,
because you didn't execute on it when that happened, if that makes sense.
Yeah. I think that's fair enough. And I think it probably should be that way. I guess one thing I would want to avoid is reducing the type of politicians we get.
But if you cripple a politician's ability to make money or retain their money or continue to grow what they've earned, then you encourage and you don't pay them very much because politicians don't make that much.
You know, their base income is not very much right.
The president's like 400K senators or like 200K a year or something.
If you cripple them too much, then you're going to get a lower quality of people in politics.
Now, not, not true.
Not true.
Go ahead.
So here's the thing.
What we're drawing right now, $400,000, by the way, is a very respectable salary.
What we're drawing right now are...
Yeah, but if you're trying to get someone to be the leader of the most powerful country or corporation in a way in the world, and you're offering them a maximum of 400K
and now they can, and you, if you cripple their other abilities to make money, right, they have
to give up all their companies and et cetera, then you, are you really going to get the best people
in the world who otherwise would be, could be making billions? But no, no, no, but this is the
thing. It's not for people who are leaders of companies, for example, right? So look, it's not reducing your
ability to have passive income. It is reducing your ability to have active income because the
truth is you can't be president. You can't be a senator and run a company actively. You can't
have those two jobs together. It's a single job. You can only have one job. Both of those are single jobs.
You can't do both. No matter what you think, you can't do both. And there's going to be too many
conflicts that could potentially or actually arise for you to be able to do both. There's a
choice you have to make. Do you want to actively run your company or do you want to be a senator? You can't do both.
And too many people are not being forced to make that choice.
They should be forced to make that choice.
And look, if you think that you can actively run a large billion-dollar company and be a senator, then something's wrong with the country.
Not with your ability to run your you know, run your money or
things like that. Look, if you want to maintain your money, that's fine. But if being asked,
if you chose to be senator, and if that choice doesn't involve, you know, you, if the, if that
decision to do that, which also means giving up your day job, you know, that job that you have of running your company saying, OK, I'm going to give up this position of running my company.
I'm going to hand it over to someone else who I know is competent to run this company.
I knew I was going to have to give it up at some point by retiring or whatever it is, but I'm giving it up.
Someone else is going to run my company.
I'm going to focus on being senator.
If that is too much to ask, then you can't be senator.
You can't run. You can't do that. That's not for you. If you're doing something else that
takes up too much of your time, then you can't do the job. That's really it.
I would, okay, I'm going to push back a little. I agree with you generally, but for fun, for playing doubles advocate, I think there are
people who are able to multitask and can be, I think there's like, there could be a politician
who is focused full-time 80 hours a week on being a senator and would be still worse than
someone who spends 30 hours a week doing it, who is just better at the job.
But I generally think it's a good standard.
You're right.
Totally right.
That should be their main focus.
But I'll take an example of someone like Elon Musk.
Some people would say you can't be the CEO of multiple things.
But I mean, he's building some of the most incredible companies in the world, and he's
got like six of them, right?
So there are some people who are good at assigning people under them, good people that they trust, and then managing from a higher level.
And so I know government doesn't work like that.
I guess I would just encourage us to think about maybe, I think we shouldn't exclude business people from politics.
And I don't think you're saying that, by the way.
And I don't think you're saying that, by the way.
I'm not.
I'm not.
But I'm saying I think maybe we should be even considering encouraging the best business operators in the world to get into politics.
But I agree with all your points.
Yeah, I also think, though, that we shouldn't have re-election, because I think that right now the multitasking that we have in
office is that people focus too much on re-election and not enough on the business of running the
country. And that is in every level of office, right? I think that we should actually have
one term period because most of what's happening and the corruption that happens is really about
filling the treasure chest for the next election.
And if we didn't have that, then I think more business would get done, more problems would be solved quicker.
And people would not have this vested interest of, oh, I got to get my next election done.
I got to get my next election.
And they wouldn't look at elected office as a permanent job.
They would look at it as something that they're doing right now to get as much done as they could right now.
And then going back to doing whatever it was.
Like this is an interlude for them rather than a lifetime job.
Incumbency and tenure and things like that can be a curse.
And I think that the problem that we have with incumbency right now is that people get lazy
in voting. They just look at name recognition instead of looking at people and issues, and
they're voting entirely on, well, you know, I'm not dead. I still have, you know, a place to live
or whatever, so I'll just keep the person in office. Instead of saying, well, there's two new
people every time. I got to actively look at, you know, who I'm going to vote for in this election.
They're not active in looking at who they're going to vote for.
So I think that, you know, incumbency is a problem.
I think the fact that people think that they can, you know, have their cake and eat it too,
that they can, you know, use their elected position in order to make their private sector job better
as opposed to using their elected position to make to make their private sector job better, as opposed to using their
elected position to make everyone's life better. I think that that's a problem too. And I think
the fact that lobbyists exist and the fact that they, like, I don't have a problem with people
offering stuff in order to get a better whatever, right? If you want to pay $10 million in order percentage of pollution, fine.
You want to trade? That's fine. But it shouldn't go to the elected official. It should go to the
community, right? Go offer that to the community. Say, look, I want to pay $10 million in order to
add pollution to this river. Go offer that to the community. If the community accepts, they say, OK, we want every year for you to, you know, pay this much money, add five playgrounds, do this, and then you can add more pollution and we'll deal with cleaning it up. Right.
Go offer that to the community. Don't offer it to the elected official. Why are you making the elected official rich? The elected official
doesn't even have a vote. All they have is a proxy vote. They're the proxy for the community.
So they don't really get to say what's okay for that community without the community being okay
with the lobbyist, right? The lobbyist is trying to change the vote, but it's not the elected
officials vote. It's the community's vote. It's constituencies vote. So the elected official
needs to tell the lobbyist, I can't tell you whether or not that's right or wrong.
You got to go to the community, convince the community that that's a good idea. If they agree, then sure, I'll change my vote and go give them the money.
And then I'll change my vote and there you go.
That's a fair deal.
If somebody wants to pay money to go do something that is inherently wrong,
and the community is fine with it, fine.
That's fine for that community.
I don't have any moral issues with that.
But it's the community that community. I don't have any moral issues with that. But it's the
community that meets with the consequences. So can you steel man the positives of lobbying?
Can I what? Can you steel man the positives of lobbying? Can you make an argument? Steel man
as in make the positive argument. like if you were on the other side
and you were arguing for why lobbying,
either in the way it is or some other form,
is a good thing?
Could you give the,
could you tell the other side?
I don't have, yeah,
I don't have any problem with lobbying
as like the form of people collect,
like a group of an industry collectively
or a group of people collectively coming together
with one voice about something. Lobbies in general have gotten a number of things done.
It's community organizations are a type of lobby and they have gotten a lot of things done for the
better of the world, right? Communities have been lobbies. You know, there's a lot of change has happened because of lobbies. But
if you're trying to change a vote and you're trying to manipulate by bribery or money or
trying to do something that negatively impacts the community, especially if you're trying to like,
you know, like offer briberies or things like that, that's a lot of what what lobbies do,
offer briberies or things like that. That's a lot of what lobbies do, right? Lobbies offer things
to elected officials in exchange for votes. That part makes no sense. It's not the elected
officials vote. When lobbies get together to consolidate what it is that they want. And they bring it to an affected community.
And they say, here, we want this. And they tell the community with the elected official, they say,
look, this is what we want. This is the impact it's going to have. This is what we want.
And they convince the community, this is why the
vote has to change, and this is like they negotiate with the community. Great. A little bit like a
union. I mean, I think it's great. I think that there's nothing wrong with having, like, you know,
a collective voice. There's nothing wrong with having a collective voice.
But it's somehow evolved into super pay to play now, right?
Yeah, I mean, the problem is when you're trying, when you're basically saying I'm going to, you know, the construction, the construction lobby basically says, you know, we'll build your house that you will build the elected officials house for free.
House that you will build the elected officials house for free if you decide to, you know, vote on this on this on this bill so that we don't have to pay taxes.
Well, you know, now essentially you voted on a bill that you have no idea what other impact is going to have.
You've changed a vote for from an elected official.
That is not the elected
official's vote. That elected official didn't go back to their constituency and say,
here's all the impact of this bill. Here's what's going to change. And I'm voting this way,
but also I got a free house. Well, nobody else in the community got a free house,
house. Well, nobody else in the community got a free house, right? Everybody else had to suffer.
So everybody else- Well, that's definitely illegal.
So like- That's definitely not legal, right?
Absolutely not legal.
So there's protections against that. But it does happen.
It happens all the time.
You can make the argument that the new Air Force One Trump's plane that will go to his foundation after it gets decommissioned.
That to me is pretty questionable.
Well, that's under the emoluments clause. That's a problem. I mean, everything over $500 is a problem.
But for like, I mean, Ted Stevens from Alaska was notorious for this, where he got pissed off that he was the only non-millionaire in the Senate.
And so he was like, oh, crap, everyone else is a millionaire and I'm not.
And so he started making all these deals.
And that's how the bridge to nowhere in Alaska got built, because he wanted all sorts of crap from people.
He wasn't getting enough, like, you know, side deals.
And that's, you know, that's just a lot of what happens.
And we just permit that. Like, you know, you're hearing me say this. Some people may know what I'm talking about.
Some people may not. But most of you are not, like, outraged hearing this, like that a senator
took a bunch of bribes and agreed to a bunch of bills in order to enrich himself personally.
And there's not like rage.
I thought that was, yeah, I mean, I think most people are just like,
well, that's just how politics is now.
That's just par for the course.
That's not what should happen.
That is not what anybody voted for.
That is not, that's not what we should be doing. Certainly not what
our founding fathers built America on or any country for that matter. Exactly. That's not,
this is not what our country is. And this is stuff that doesn't happen over,
it doesn't happen overnight. This stuff slowly erodes over time. What, you know like especially when people look past um you know their president that you know
they may be like for example with the air force one thing people are like ah well i like trump
and he's doing good for the country i don't care if he gets that air force one but then slowly it
just degrades slowly we degrade and it'll be the other party the other time and vice versa. And slowly the country turns into, you know, this crony capitalist thing that it sadly has become in America.
And I'm still a proud American.
And I think we still have the best government and the best checks and balances.
But I'm deeply worried about the state of how things have happened here.
You can't blame. On both sides. I'm not picking about the state of how things have happened here. You can't blame.
On both sides.
I'm not picking any one side.
You can't say one party does it and the other party is so pristine.
Everybody is doing it.
Independents are doing it.
And I honestly don't believe people go in with the intention of being corrupt.
I think that people go in with the intention of doing good.
And then the idea of,
well, you got to compromise. You don't want everyone to isolate you or whatever that starts
happening. And, and it just, it's the company that you keep, you know, there's that saying that,
you know, you are the sum total of the five people closest to you. And I think it is the company that you keep. Everybody is so anxious to be, you know,
a mover or shaker, you know, somebody who's doing something in Congress, somebody who's known,
who's able to make deals, one of the power players in the cool kids club or whatever.
And they end up making compromises ethically in order to be one of those people.
And I think that that's what happens.
Or maybe not making compromises ethically.
I think you mean making ethical compromises.
Same thing.
Well, making a compromise ethically, I think I would hear.
Yes, you're right.
Ethical compromises.
They're making ethical compromises. Yes, you're right. Ethical compromises. They're making ethical compromises and they start off small. But I think it kind of eats away at you. And it just reminds me like of, you know,. Ego continues to erode good thing. And then they realize, well, it's very hard
to do the right thing with, by being purely, you know, ethical. So maybe I got to, you know,
crack a couple eggs to make an omelet, but I, it's for the greater good. And I'm just doing,
you know, a little bit here and a little bit there. And then I think over time, they just
become fully corrupted. I think, I think that's very likely. And they often, I'm sure that people tell them,
well, you'll never last hear like that. Oh, there's other people who wanted to do that. Or,
oh, you remember this person. No, who is that? Exactly. I remember when I first got into Congress.
Exactly. And I'm sure that that's what they use to basically try and, you know, manipulate people. But it's a culture. It's just a culture like any other culture.
And it just takes a few people with a different type of culture to change everything.
I mean, that's that's really it.
That's why, you know, every government, all people are as safe as the government that's currently in office will let them be, right?
Like, you can't rely on the history of democracy to keep you safe.
You have to rely on the government that's currently in office because governments are living things.
Culture is a living thing.
It can change.
It's reliant on the people in it.
If we want the culture of this government to change, if we want the institutions to stay strong, we have to just change who we elect and what we require of them.
We require so little of people. I can't believe
how many people were saying, oh, well, you've got my vote before even demanding anything of
either candidate. Right. I mean, people were like, oh, you got my vote. Well, wait a second.
Demand things of them. Well, wait a second. Like, what is your plan economically? What is your plan for job loss? What is your plan for that? You know, ask them things. Don't just say, oh, well, because you are, you know, either this gender, this, this, you know, this religion, this, you know, this party, you know, you have my vote. No, you have to do things for me. You get my vote. If, right. If you do these
things, anyone to me who is always red or always blue, that's like a dangerous way to think. You
should never be always because then you're not going to criticize your party when they do
something wrong. Exactly. You should all, I mean, it's about, if you don't agree to me, it's kind of
a red flag. If you don't agree with and disagree with things from both parties,
there's something weird because like you can't possibly as a human,
we are not like we'd, none of us should just fit into some box that, you know,
Oh, everything the Dems do is great.
Or everything the Dems, the Republicans do is great.
I'm like, I would say right now, just telling my kind of, I'm a libertarian,
but I would say right now I'm probably, and this has changed over time and I'm sure it'll change
again, but I'm, I'm as a libertarian, I'm, I probably agree with 60% of, uh, at this moment,
what the Republicans are saying or doing, and I agree with probably
40% of what the Democrats are doing, but I used to be a lot more the other way. So it changes over
time, and it depends on the, I mean, it's funny. I mean, you can't agree with everything either
side says because they switch sides all the time on issues, right? Immigration, cutting down
immigration was a Democrat thing for a long time. Now it's a Republican thing, right? Like protecting labor
was a Democrat thing, but now it seemed the Republicans have started winning over that crowd.
So this changes all the time. So you shouldn't just be stuck or dogmatic in any one thing.
Yeah. I mean, you know, like a long time ago, there was like the Southern strategy changed the sides, right?
So, you know, really, I think it's really about investigating what the sides are.
For me, everything is about accountability.
Like, it's very hard for me to be, you know, pro a lot of programs without saying, well, where's the auditing and the results?
Like, that's for me always a sticking issue. And that's one of the things I'm like,
politicians don't want to give us any auditing. Yeah, I hate that. I mean, and that's one of
the things like in California, we've actually had bond issues, Like we've had the same bond votes for like in over an eight year
period over in like two elections. We've had the same bond votes for the same things. And I'm like,
but I know that there's still money in the general account for this last issue. They didn't even
mention it. And I was like, I'm not voting for another bond. Like, I don't even mention it and i was like i'm not voting for another bond like i don't even know
why there's still money from the last one and did it work i don't know how many times i've seen
votes uh i mean i'm from california my whole life um but now puerto rico but i uh i the last vote
and multiple votes before that every vote they're asking for more like road and gas taxes to fix
the roads like
what is happening what happened to all the money we're agreeing to get it's the account where is
this money going i don't have a problem with this with the spending it's really just it's the it's
did it work because that's that's really what like scientific method is is about right is
okay i have a hypothesis that um I spend this money, for example,
on a problem, that the problem will dissipate by this percentage. And then what I want to see are
published results saying, I spent this much, it went to this, this, this, and this, and these
were the results. And honestly, look, if it didn't work, then just say it didn't work. We're going to try again.
We have these studies to show us
that this method might work better.
So we're going to try this method
and we're going to put it in this, this, this,
and this thing.
And then over time, I want to see
that it's been allocated accordingly.
And then I want to see what the results are.
Like, I understand that not every experiment works.
And I understand that governments need to try different things to see what's going to alleviate problems. But I want to see the outcomes. I don't want just to say, we're going to do this and this is going to work. Like, clearly, I'm looking at an outcome and it doesn't look any different to me. So where did the money go? Who allocated it? Where did it like, did anybody get an impact of it?
Because when I try and find out, there's just roadblocks over and over and over again. I can't
figure out where the money went. So how can I give you more money when you're not telling me where
the money went? Like, I'm not going to give you more. I'm not, I can't reasonably do that
because I don't know what you did with it last time.
So that's just poor money allocation.
But I'm not going to say that there's not a problem.
And I'm not going to say that the money doesn't need to be spent and that that's not a problem that needs to be rectified.
What I want is people who understand how to spend the money correctly.
The other thing is people who continually think that like domestic
issues shouldn't have money spent on it, where I published in 2024 on my profile, you can see
the 2024 budget and where all the money went. And literally all of the domestic programs,
everything, SNAP, EV credits, earned income tax credit, you know, school lunches, all of it.
The whole thing all together, everything we do to help domestically, it's like 12 percent of the budget.
Everything. Everything.
So all the people saying, oh, I don't want to do anything to help, like, you know, to do like I don't want to help welfare or anything like that.
I can't do it.
It's not. That's a drop in the bucket. bucket none of it so where's the other portion going you're saying 12 percent
is going to any domestic programs that's impossible the huge chunk of it so uh
nearly half of it collectively is going to social security and med and that is not so
that is domestic it's not even medicaid and i broke it all down you can go look at my profile that's that's domestic what do you mean what what is
it's all domestic it's direct payments doesn't even get uh it doesn't even get um discussed
in budgets it's direct payments but it's domestic it's in the united states yeah in the u.s it's
over 65 right so it's not even medicaid it's over 65, right? So it's not even Medicaid.
It's not like, so the Medicare payments are not even Medicaid.
They're not even like, because that's a small portion is Medicaid.
And a small portion is like the Medicare for like another type of assistance.
There's like three kinds of Medicaid.
But the vast majority is the over 65. And the social security is our number one payment. And it's not social security
like the disability. The vast majority of it is over 65 retired payments, right? That's what most
of what we're paying, most of what we're paying. So then another 13% goes to, no, is it 13? Yeah, 13% goes to defense. That's the first thing that we have that is discretionary and gets discussed. But most of that is in no bid contracts.
have, like most of that money, even though most of it is supposed to be discretionary,
it actually gets spent without any sort of auditing process because it's no bid contracts.
And that's actually where a lot of people end up getting money because that's what Eisenhower
called the military-industrial complex, where a lot of people end up getting wealth because
they cycle through between the military and then defense companies.
And that's why that Palantir
contract is such a big issue, especially because now data is moving through this 13 percent, this
military industrial complex. Basically, a huge amount of money is moving between
the military spending and then these private companies that are basically getting these
enormous contracts. That was the whole issue with Elon also private companies that are basically getting these enormous contracts.
That was the whole issue with Elon also, is that he was getting enormous contracts that were no-bid contracts through these defense categories, right?
So that's a huge chunk.
The next, right, 13% is interest, interest on our debt.
And how did we end up with a lot of interest? That is because,
so this period that everybody loves between the 50s and the 70s, that was, we paid for our budget
through taxes, right? And our taxes were between 70 and 91%. People don't remember that. I wasn't
alive. But that's what paid our budget. And then Reagan said, I don't think that rich
people should pay taxes to pay our budget anymore because you don't get anything from that.
So this is what he said. He said, and he called it trickle-down economics,
that's what everybody remembers, but really what he said was, we are going to have the wealthy
people loan money to the government.
And in return, they get interest payments back. Now, this wouldn't have been a terrible idea, except for the fact that that is transferable.
So the wealthy people loaned a ton of money.
Our taxes went down to 36%.
However, the debt now moves throughout the world. Alex, I love this conversation. I'd love
to continue it, but apparently I just, uh, someone had scheduled a call for me at the ending of this
and I didn't even know. Um, so I'm now seven minutes late, but, um, yeah, uh, this, we should
have a whole, we need a whole topic about this one time. I would love to keep going on this.
Uh, this is my, this is my favorite topic, but I do have to run thanks everyone for coming we got a
little sidetracked on memes but uh yeah I think we could probably call it there
because I'm late for a call but yeah thanks for coming Alex and there was one
important community question for you someone asked if you really spent $10 on a McFlurry
and what kind of McFlurry.
Yeah, I did.
And it was
a s'more McFlurry
with Oreo
and caramel.
Okay, yeah, that sounds worth it.
That gets a pass from me.
Alright, guys. Yeah, I treated myself pass from me. All right, guys.
Yeah, I treated myself for my birthday.
Me and Cindy had pizza and I got a McFlurry.
I was working.
Actually, Richard called me at midnight on my birthday and I was working, actually.
But anyways.
All right, guys.
Cheers.
Great spaces.
And see you next week. Thanks, Alex. Thanks, great spaces and, uh, see you next week.
Thanks, Alex. Thanks EAC and everybody else who was on the stage. Thank you, Darren.
Uh, whoever's behind the polygon account, Timmy didn't answer, so I don't know. Maybe it's someone
different, but, uh, cheers everyone. Bye-bye.
