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Mina zkApps with Celestia Underneath
Recorded: April 25, 2024 Duration: 0:46:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you for joining us.
Thanks for joining us.
Let me know if you can hear me okay.
And I'm just onboarding the speakers.
We'll be getting started in a couple minutes.
I can hear you great.
Maddie?
Awesome.
Thanks, Steve.
Let me see if I can get this music back on.
Let me see if I can get this music back on.
All right.
All right.
I think we are getting everybody in the room.
Before we get started, how's everybody doing today?
Let's see some emoji reacts.
It's been a kind of exciting week.
It's been a pretty exciting week here in the MENA protocol ecosystem, so thanks again for joining.
Steve, you've got to work on these, like, keyboard sounds.
How are you doing, Steve?
I'm great.
As you say, big, big week in the MENA ecosystem.
Hard fork date announced.
It's public.
We're going.
We're going.
It's happening.
Yeah, pretty, pretty exciting.
Also, today, we are joined by some friends from Celestia and Geometry Research.
So, everybody give these guys a big welcome.
I see that Connor is here as a speaker.
Hey, Connor.
How are you?
How's everyone doing?
Good, good.
Looking forward to this conversation.
I saw...
Diego and Andresia as well.
I've sent y'all speaker invites.
Let me know if you see them.
But in the meantime, I think we can probably get started just with some introductions.
So, Steve, do you want to kick it off with a brief intro?
Yeah.
Hi, everyone.
Steve Pack, head of product at O1 Labs.
O1 Labs is one of the major ecosystem contributors to the MENA ecosystem.
We work on O1JS, the ZK app, smart contract platform for MENA.
We work on the protocol, along with a couple of others, and also on the proof system, kimchi
and pickles that are really at the heart of all of the proofs that make up MENA.
I've been here about a year prior to this, many years at Cloudflare.
So, really, like, enjoy bringing some of that sort of, you know, Web2 product thinking to Web3 to really make a big splash.
And I'm happy to be here, Maddy.
Thanks so much.
All right.
We've got Connor and Diego here from Celestia as well.
Connor, want to give a little intro?
Sure.
Yeah.
My name is Connor, and I'm a solutions engineer with Celestia Labs.
I mainly focus on data availability integrations for ZK rollups and sort of overseeing the MENA integration, which is being built, which is very exciting and will open up some extremely cool possibilities, which hopefully we will discuss on this space.
Awesome.
Thank you so much for that.
And then how about you, Diego?
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I'm also a solutions engineer at Celestia Labs, overall focusing on rollup integrations, both ZK and Optimistic and all sorts of constructions for L2s and dabble in, like, other kinds of, like, ideas and whatnot.
And definitely very excited to see this happen and explore more what we can build on top of MENA.
Thanks, Diego.
Thanks, Diego.
Thanks, Diego.
Yeah, I'm, I guess, for anyone who's not sure or doesn't know yet, my name is Maddie.
I am on the communications team at the MENA Foundation.
And just a second, what everyone has said so far, I think we're all really, really excited about this collaboration and what it's the new possibilities that it's going to open up for MENA builders.
So, with that being said, before we dive into kind of the nitty gritty of the integration, I would love to maybe speak a little bit about, you know, just generally why does this collaboration make sense between the MENA ecosystem and the Celestia ecosystem?
I think there's some really interesting, like, shared vision and values that these two projects both have embraced.
So, I would love to hear from some of our speakers on that and why this partnership or this collaboration makes sense.
Maybe, Steve, do you want to kick it off and then we can pass it to Connor or Diego?
Yeah, I can give it a go.
So, you know, I guess, like, one lesson that we've all learned from the Ethereum ecosystem is that, you know, there is a range of sort of security guarantees and performance requirements and sensitivity to fees across the spectrum of applications.
And when you kind of play that out, you know, the natural sort of result is L2s, where you can have sort of a different set of trade-offs in terms of trustlessness, security, but, like, improved speed, lower fees, like, just a different user experience.
And, you know, I'm sure we'll get into some of the nitty-gritty of this, but, like, you know, L2s require data availability and, you know, Celestia is one of the leaders in space.
And so when you apply it to MENA, it was announced this week, the long-awaited Berkeley upgrade that brings smart contracts to MENA and not just any smart contract, but smart contracts that, you know, execute off-chain, can incorporate private inputs and actually bring, you know, privacy and off-chain computation to blockchain, which is huge in its own right.
Like, it's really a transformational thing that we can't, like, understate that.
But the cool thing is we've already got some of the lessons here, even on day one, about, you know, how this plays out.
And we know, like, as I said from Ethereum, that there will be demand for L2s.
And we already have that, right?
There's already an L2 ecosystem starting out in the MENA ecosystem.
We have Protokit, we have Zeko.
Like, I've seen other projects starting to announce as well.
And so, you know, even though we're just getting started with smart contracts on MENA, we already, you know, see the trend towards L2.
And so, you know, as discussed, those L2s need data availability.
And so it's super exciting that, you know, we're already working now, you know, to make sure all of those core infrastructure pieces are in place to unlock this, you know, L2 and AppChain ecosystem.
So that's the way I see it.
Love to hear from the Celestia folks.
Sure, yeah.
I think both Celestia and MENA are aligned in that we both are lightweight blockchains.
That's a huge part of what we try to do.
We have the Celestia light node, which anybody can run and verify the chain on any sort of low-end device.
And then MENA famously has the whole chain proved with recursive zero-knowledge proofs for a similar end goal.
And Celestia has currently no smart contracts, whereas MENA will soon have a form of smart contract after the exciting new upgrade, which is taking place.
And the ZK apps are, turns out, they're very expressive.
And you can write these custom circuits using O1JS.
And there were some cool, really cool things you could build with that.
And there always have been.
But when you have the ability to have, like, a connection to a source of scalable data availability, then it allows you to make these things stateful in a way that has never been so scalable and so accessible.
So hopefully we can help things such as ZK rollups launch on MENA after all these things roll out.
Thanks, Connor.
Yeah, that's really, like, really good to hear.
And I completely agree.
Like, I think that one sort of shared vision between MENA and Celestia is this idea that verification should be accessible.
And I think we all here know that as chains continue to grow in size, it just becomes more and more difficult for folks to sink to the chain and really, like, it threatens, in my opinion, not just speaking as an individual, kind of threatens, like, some of the decentralization promises of crypto and of Web3.
So I think that this partnership really is setting the stage for some exciting new paradigms in the Web3 space.
Like, not only with ZK Smart Contracts coming to mainnet soon, but also with this idea that, you know, anybody should be able to easily and quickly sync and verify the chain.
So, yeah, I think with that being said, let's also dive in a little bit more to, like, this integration itself.
Like, what is this integration and what is it unlocking for developers?
Maybe, like, Diego, if you want to kick this one off.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think a big part of this, right, is it's only easy to understand if you try to, like, kind of, like, change the way you think about building apps when you build a CK app, right?
As someone that has both been part of the CK Apps Builders program and has hacked on Mina stuff in the past, right?
Essentially, you start realizing that you have to think about things differently, right?
And that there's, like, certain constraints, like, trying to, like, define your app state with only, like, eight variables and so on and so forth, right?
But once you, like, start thinking about, well, what can I do, right?
How do I take this off chain and verify all these computations and whatnot on chain, you sort of naturally realize that, like, the way Mina works is actually really good for, like, settlement layers, right?
For essentially, like, hosting rollups.
So now you can start exploring how to build your application, right?
Not necessarily just as, like, say, like, an already predefined virtual machine like the EVM, but as anything you want, right?
And sort of just let Mina be the verification layer for your proofs.
While instead of trying to host the data, sorry, not host the data, but make the data available on Mina, you can make it available on Celestia, right?
So that you can have, like, higher throughput.
And also kind of, like, piggybacking on what Connor mentioned about, like, being, like, Celestia and Mina kind of, like, being aligned and, like, being, like, light chains or putting an emphasis on people running light nodes, right?
Like, if you run your rollup, right, or Validium, I guess you could say, settling on Mina and using Celestia for DA, right?
Like, the user ultimately has the ability to verify the correctness of these proofs, right?
But can also verify the availability of the data with ease, right?
And with minimal hardware requirements, right?
So I think it really expands on the ability for developers to build on top of Mina, but without sacrificing on, like, the core principles.
I have a related to this, like, kind of a question for Connor.
Like, you mentioned the, you know, both chains have this goal of being lightweight.
And for Mina, like, that's expressed as, you know, this, the blockchain snark, the 22 kilobytes, is easily verifiable.
And one of the things that that will unlock is the ability to, like, run, you know, a light client just in the browser, right?
That there are already, like, in-browser implementations of Mina where, you know, leads to this world where you don't need to interact with the chain via RPC or via...
You know, anything else you can literally, like, you know, put transactions in the mempool, be confident that you've got the latest version of the chain and, you know, truly have this decentralized smart contract platform.
And like I said, there's proof of concepts of that.
That part's not productionized yet.
But I was just thinking with you guys also being light, like, do you have in-browser implementations for Celestia?
Like, will we get to this world where whether you're interacting with the L1 or the L2 that, you know, even from within the browser with no additional components, you can, you know, have guarantees that, like, the data you need is available?
Yeah, yeah, so that is absolutely a very high goal of ours is we want our light node to run in every app that the users have, the browser, the wallet, the front ends to the apps, etc.
On mobile phones.
And to achieve that goal, the node needs to be unnoticeably light.
And at the moment, it's very light, but we haven't quite got it to be unnoticeably light yet.
Right now, you run, you download and run the software in the terminal, and it still takes some time to sync because we don't quite have the, we don't have the meanest, the synchness yet.
Although, we do want to have that, and it is actually, there has been some major steps towards reaching that.
Like, we have snarks of our consensus now, and we don't yet have the recursive snarks of our consensus.
But we love the, we love the meanest, the synchness, and anything that gets us closer towards putting our light node everywhere, we want to get, we want to take all those steps.
Yeah, because, I mean, that's almost, you know, we sometimes joke that, that Mina is the, the realization of Vitalik's vision for Ethereum, just like a few years ahead of time.
Because, you know, it's, like, very soon, like I said, you will be able to, on the L1, know that from within a browser, you're on the chain, submit things directly, not via an RPC.
And so, realize that decentralization part.
But then with this, it's like, okay, instead of, like, you know, one thing we haven't solved on the L1 yet is confirmation, is slot times.
It's still, it's still three minutes, we're going to get it down.
But, you know, L2s will always be faster.
And so, to think that we could have this best of both worlds where, you know, you can be interacting with the L2, but still have that in-browser proof that, you know, your data is available, that you're on the right version of the chain.
And, you know, you derive, you know, get the meanest security from the L2 that you're interacting with, you're now in this world of, like, decentralization and trustlessness, but still with low fees and, you know, fast performance.
And that's an exciting future that this is one step towards.
Completely agree.
Yeah, it's, it is really exciting.
And I feel, I feel bullish just hearing about it.
Okay, I'm going to take a quick break because we need to welcome Andresia, actually.
Andresia, let me know, first of all, if I'm saying your name correctly.
And also just, hello, welcome.
Thanks so much for joining our space.
Tell us a little bit about yourself and geometry.
Yeah, hello, everyone.
Sorry, I'm a bit late.
I had some issues joining as a speaker.
So I'm Andresia.
I'm working with geometry research.
I've been, like, in cryptography for, like, around two years.
And in geometry research, we are, like, doing both, like, theoretical research,
also all kinds of implementations related to mainly zero-knowledge proofs, but cryptography in general.
So we are the team that will help with this, with this collaboration.
So deep down, it will be, like, verifying the elliptic curve pairings.
So we are kind of working on designing these circuits that are going to allow this integration,
which will efficiently verify pairings.
We'll have to invoke some recursion, et cetera, et cetera.
And, yeah, we have, like, quite cool ideas and some novel tricks about verifying pairings inside the circuits
that we are going to publish, I think, very soon.
And it will be public.
So, yeah, mainly it's a team of five people, and we are going to bring this integration to be live.
So thanks for inviting me.
Of course.
We're so glad to have you.
And I think that that's a really good segue into, you know, I'm not a cryptographer, right?
But I know that this integration is setting the stage for some exciting work that has to do with, like,
Succinct and Blobstream X, as well as Groth 16 proofs.
So can someone give me, like, the dummy explanation, explain it like I'm five?
What does this have to do with this Mina and Celestia collaboration?
Um, I can talk about that.
So Geometry is building a Groth 16 verifier that runs in Mina, and it turns out that a lot of ZK things are wrapped in Groth 16.
A bunch of the ZK roll-ups, like, I believe, like, for example, Polygon Hermes, ZKEVM,
is wrapped in an outer Groth 16, as well as Risk Zero and the SP1 ZKVM.
So you can use these fast, proving time, um, ZKVM infrastructure tools,
and they all produce the same kind of proof, which this code can be used to verify.
So the Groth 16 verifier opens up a lot of interoperability possibilities,
even beyond just being able to verify Celestia.
Yeah.
I'm so glad you mentioned that, because, uh, yeah, that is, that's an amazing thing, um, about this is, like, we're solving a very specific,
uh, you know, um, problem.
We're adding a very specific capability of data availability for AppChains roll-ups.
But, like, what a, what a side effect that, um, all of these other proofs that are being generated all around crypto are now efficiently verifiable, uh, in, you know, one JS, or will be when this completes.
And so it's just like, you know, what does that mean?
It's like, you know, as ZK apps on other chains or just other ecosystems start producing valuable state, like, you know, proof about something about your identity or, you know, proof that you're a citizen or not a citizen or, you know, age or, or that you own something, that those now become available, um, to incorporate into O1JS applications.
And, um, I'll even take that one step further, I, I, I can see, uh, Phil, our head of BDs on the line, um, uh, you know, one thing he's learned is, is talking to, um, you know, customers trying to solve real world problems is, um, even things like, um, data from NFC chips.
So, like, um, passport readers and, um, you know, lots of other things that have embedded chips, often the proofs you get from those are across 16.
And so, like, it's just, yeah, really, um, it's a cool thing that, uh, there's this side effect benefit that, um, O1JS developers can now incorporate, um, even more proofs into their applications.
Another reason we're excited about it.
Very nice.
Very, very nice.
And yeah, thank you for the beginner explanation.
I think that, like, that was actually quite easy to, to track and to follow.
And, um, essentially, like...
Ah, sorry, I overspoken.
No, I was just going to say, there's also a, um, there's also a community effort on, um, on GROSS 16.
Uh, so that could be a good opportunity, whether, like, geometry and, um, you know, other people in the ecosystem might be able to, um, share ideas on, like, efficient implementation there, because I have seen something about that on, uh, one of the programs, which is cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I can actually speak to that a little bit, at least.
Um, there was a team, uh, that was, or an individual developer that was part of the MENA Navigators program, which is one of our developer grant programs, who did some really important foundational work that kind of set the stage for, uh, this integration.
Um, so shout out to, shout out to them.
And, uh, yeah, he, he was interested in it.
I know, actually, like, Conor and Diego, I think this was something that you all were exploring when you were part of the Builders program, um, a couple years ago.
Um, I think Eunice has done some work on this as well, um, with Dogen, so there's plenty of folks in the community that have all had a little bit of a hand in this, and it's a, it's like a highly, highly requested, uh, requested feature, um, which is part of the reason why, um, this is really, like, a big deal.
Well, I think maybe, you know, since we've set that context, like, I would love to maybe dive in a little bit, like, what are some of the, the trade-offs and the trust assumptions here, right?
Because I feel like that's, that's always a little bit the case with, with crypto and with Web3.
Um, so if I was, if I was a ZK app builder, um, walk me through, like, some of the pros and cons of, uh, utilizing this modular DA solution.
Um, sure, so the L1 has a little bit of its own DA, and in O1JS, this is, this is the events functionality.
So when you're writing your ZK app with O1JS, uh, for example, maybe you have a Merkle root, which is part, for whatever, maybe it's, like, people's balances or something in your app, and it's a Merkle tree, and whenever the user sends a transaction that touches the Merkle tree or changes the state, you can force Mina to log the leaves of the tree as these event things, and that is a form of data availability.
And that is a function that, you know, prevents the data withholding attack and allows you to build some stateful apps, but Mina has a limited capacity for this, and, uh, Celestia has gigantic blocks that don't really have a maximum size.
So, uh, you want to scale data availability if you want to scale roll-ups on any chain, and there is a, uh, trust assumption trade-off.
So, the L1DA, which is, on Mina, that's events, on Ethereum, that's 4844 blobs, that is, like, the most secure.
That can never be wrong.
There's no way that a ZK app could ever, um, like, withhold data if you're using that DA.
Uh, where he is, when you're using Celestia through this integration, it is verifying the signatures of the validators.
And so, the validators could theoretically lie.
But, what's nice about Mina and Celestia being tiny blockchains that can be verified on like clients is,
a user can actually run a like client of both, and so, if that ever happens, the user will detect it immediately.
And that allows them to, um, like, basically, like, halt and, like, stop and, uh, realize that something's wrong before they proceed.
So, it's, it's, it's better to, to use this setup with succinct blockchains than it is with, like, uh, other configurations.
Nice.
Yeah, that's, like, I think that's a really useful breakdown of, of how this really works.
And, yeah, I would love to, um, does anybody want to respond to that?
Um, before we chat a little bit about ZK apps generally?
I think if not, I'm, I'd like to open, oh, go ahead, sir.
Yeah, Matty, I, sorry, I dropped and, and, and, and fell off.
Um, there was one that's slightly, um, slightly off topic, but I'm dying to ask Connor and maybe Diego, uh, about, um, data storage versus data availability.
So, um, you know, we've been talking, like, today, uh, how important it is to, you know, be sure data is available and, and particularly in the scenario of, uh, like, an L2 or an app chain where, you know, users need access to that to know they can get their funds out.
So, like, super, super critical stuff.
But, um, you know, one of the first things, um, ZK app developers ask for, uh, when they're in building on Mina and Diego, I'm sure you've experienced this is, you know, storage of that data.
I don't just need to know that it's available.
Sometimes I need to, like, you know, actually go and retrieve it.
Um, and, you know, that's something that we're working on at Owen Labs, but I was curious from the, yeah, both sort of Celestia's point of view and, um, Diego, ZK app developer, like, is data storage, like, completely orthogonal to what you're working on in data availability?
Do you, do you see you guys entering that space?
Um, or is it sort of still the domain of, like, IPFS and, and Arweave and, and, and this type of, um, provider?
Um, yeah, so the, I would say the first thing is that we, we have to define that, um, data storage is not data availability, right?
They're like, they, they sound similar, but they're not the same, right?
Like, um, the, the easiest way to think about data availability is like, sort of like a cache.
Um, like you, you just want to make sure that the data is available for some, like, um, basically subjectively small period of time so that people can, like,
um, um, recompute the, the, the, the state of like a blockchain, right?
Like a, like a rollup on top of Mina if they, um, wish to do so.
Um, otherwise they can't really know, um, the, the correctness of like some outcome.
Um, but it does not guarantee like long-term data storage, right?
Like if you're trying to use Celestia, um, in the same way that like you would use say, uh, IPFS or Rweave or even, um, your own like, uh, storage service, right?
Like, uh, uh, a connection to like an S3 bucket, do not recommend though.
Um, you, you, you essentially have different guarantees, right?
Like when, when you choose something like, uh, uh, doing off-chain storage with like, um, you know, by, by having like the Merkle tree of your data, um, inside of like your CK app on Mina, right?
Like you're, you're basically, um, uh, assuming that this data is going to be stored for some like, um, long period of time, right?
You're paying some form of rent, um, on, on IPFS or you're like paying Rweave right up front, et cetera.
Um, for, for Celestia, right?
It's more so for, um, for this like, uh, data availability problem that chains have, right?
Uh, especially rollups.
Um, so it's like a different, um, uh,
yeah, I would say they're orthogonal.
Like, um, um, what this really unblocks really is, it's like the, the ability to build, um, new systems on top of Mina, right?
Like they may, they maintain this like secure, um, uh, connection to, to Mina, right?
Like the Mina ecosystem, um, assets that, that exist on Mina, et cetera.
Um, but it does not, uh, really, um, how do I say?
This, uh, replace the role of like a storage service for like a Mina CK app.
Um, but at the same time, right?
If you're building, uh, a new system, right?
Like an L2 on Mina, um, with like now, um, higher DA throughput, right?
You could experiment.
Um, I believe this is what the SECO team is doing, right?
Like Mina on Mina, right?
Like you could experiment with making perhaps like the, um, the, the number of state variables say that, that you have on, on, on your rollup that has the same, like a state machine as Mina, um, more abundant, perhaps.
Um, that's just one idea or people could experiment, right?
Building, um, uh, rollups on top of Mina, uh, that, that utilize some other, like, um, virtual machine or, or state machine, um, or even build their own custom one.
Right.
Um, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a different set of like problems that have their own unique solution.
Um, yeah, well said, thanks for clarifying for, uh, for everyone.
Definitely seconding that.
And if you are a listener of this space who, you know, may be interested in working on data storage solutions in the Mina ecosystem, I encourage you to potentially check out our core grants program, um, where you can leave a request for comment, um, which could then become.
A request for proposal around all sorts of different core infrastructure, uh, and developer needs.
So, sorry, little plug there.
Um, I think like, as we're coming to the end of this space, right, we have made the case for, I think we've explained like, you know, how this integration works and what it's really doing, right?
Like we're unleashing higher throughput ZK apps, um, with this integration and, and like really awesome data availability solution from Celestia.
But I want to like zoom out a little bit and just talk, you know, like, so what, or who cares?
Like, what about ZK apps is actually special and cool and exciting, uh, since all of you have had like some kind of different experiences building in the Mina ecosystem?
Um, how are ZK smart contracts different from what's being offered in, on other chains and, you know, why should we care basically?
Um, yeah, I mean, I, I can, I can speak a little bit on, on that, um, given like, uh, just prior experience working on, on ZK apps.
Um, like the, the reason I even got attracted to like, um, um, exploring me in the first place, right?
It's like the idea of being able to, to build applications that leverage, um, uh, ZK, right.
Without me, um, having to like, uh, learn some complicated, um, language, right.
Like, uh, I, I think, um, uh, things like O1JS, right.
Um, really help people like me that understand the overall concept of like what ZK proofs can do, but that don't necessarily know other things like CIRCOM, um, or, or other languages that back then, um, were the only ones available.
Um, it really helps you like, um, uh, as a developer, like, um, expand your horizons and like explore what's possible.
Um, obviously this, this comes with like, um, different, uh, it's, it's, it's a, it's a new paradigm, right.
So it's, um, so it has its, its own set of like, uh, uh, things that you have to like learn in order to like, um, build a CK app that like functions, right.
That's, that's secure, et cetera.
But, um, essentially like, um, the, the way I would say it's different from like, you know, uh, like the EVM, right.
Or, or, or other smart contract, um, uh, state machines is that like the, the, the MENA state machine puts like, um, CK, right.
Like, um, as a first class citizen.
Um, and, and that's not something that we, uh, we see on any like network that's like live, at least to my knowledge, other than like MENA.
Right.
Indeed, uh, bringing, bringing privacy to a mainnet blockchain, uh, is, is a huge accomplishment.
And that's, that's one thing MENA does.
Um, yeah, I would say Maddie, like it's, it's part of why I was attracted to MENA in the first place.
I, I sometimes joke that like, there was this dream that was blockchain, right.
That, um, you know, this idea that we could transact and you, normally you assume that when you transact it, it's, it's in private, um, you know, that you, uh, we wanted to own our own data.
Um, we wanted to be able to like permissionlessly build like on top, you know, not, not, not require permission to use an API that then gets pulled out from under you.
Uh, and that's kind of not where we are at the moment in crypto, right?
Like everything's public, you get docs, no matter what you do, um, like you, uh, own your own data.
Like, you know, that's, that's maybe we've made some, um, uh, further, uh, progress, but in terms of transacting, you know, mostly it's via RPC, like you're, you know, you're trusting the RPC provider, you know, you're trusting that the validator set is distributed enough to not like sensor transactions.
And, you know, mostly that's true, but it's not maybe the guarantees that the early crypto dreamers went for.
And, you know, whereas compare that to Jemina and, and the launch of Zika apps, privacy, first class citizen, like you're writing a smart contract.
You literally say, these are the inputs that are private.
Uh, no one, no one should ever be able to see these.
Um, that's amazing.
Right.
And that, that data that goes into the transaction that never leaves your machine because you compute the proof on your machine and send the proof to the block.
Chain, like, that's fundamentally new.
And as Diego said, like what's such a like fundamentally transformative technology, you kind of expect to be hard and, and it is like a new concept.
You have to structure your apps a different way, but the fact that you can now approach that in TypeScript and not be writing like these low level circuits, but, you know, use higher level data structures like Merkle trees.
You know, we've, we've, we've made it accessible.
And so like, that's why this is such an exciting, um, you know, moment for Mina where it led the way in, in succinctness and using Zika in a production main net blockchain.
That's been live for three years.
Um, and now to actually offer smart contracts functionality, um, on top of that, you know, it's a really exciting sort of, you know, day one for, for smart contracts, uh, with Zika.
Thanks guys.
Yeah.
I think it's always really important to kind of zoom out and put things in perspective.
Um, so really appreciate your answers there.
Um, we're coming up on time, but we're going to take a couple of questions from the replies.
Let me quickly pull up the first one.
Um, this is from Raphael, who is one of the co-founders of ProtoKit.
He asked, uh, do I understand correctly that you only verify the consensus via the bridge and not the DAS?
Yeah, that's correct.
The bridge only verifies the consensus of the Celestia blockchain.
But like I said before, if you're a user of Mina and you're running the ZK node of Mina, you can run a Celestia Lite node side by side.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Thanks, Connor.
Um, one other question from Emre.
I, he said, could you please explain integration from the infrastructure component perspective?
Like where are the APIs, which components will be used and connected to each other?
Um, I can kind of like gloss over it.
Right.
I don't, I don't know the, the, um, deep, uh, technical answer to that.
Like, uh, I would assume, um, uh, Andresha knows more about like how to make the Grot16 verifier, uh, happen and work.
But, um, after, after, uh, geometry is able to, to do this work, right.
Um, essentially the, the way it would work is that there would be a relayer that relays these like Grot16 proofs to Mina and they get verified.
Right.
Um, and then it's like, okay, cool.
But like, what does that mean?
Um, you would integrate the CK app into the CK app that you use for like your, your rollup or, or off chain application.
Right.
Um, in, in using like O1JS.
Um, and then in terms of like, uh, APIs and whatnot, um, like outside of like the, the, the same tooling that you would use to build on Mina.
Um, for the rollup itself, it's different, right?
Like if, if it's a, a EVM rollup, it would have to have some form of like, um, ETH RPC equivalent.
Right.
Um, and if it's something like Seco, then, um, I'm assuming it's going to have an API that looks very similar to what Mina has.
Um, and yeah.
Thanks, Diego.
Um, Andresa, do you want to add any, add anything else to that?
Uh, yeah, I think this was like a pretty clear explanation.
Uh, no, uh, we are like very deep into like, uh, field extensions and math.
And I think we're like ending this.
So it's probably not the best time to start, uh, speaking about all of this, uh, stuff that will be, uh, happening underneath.
But, uh, what Diego explained now, I think is, uh, a very clear, um, very clear explanation of how the whole process will work.
Awesome.
Yeah, I completely agree.
We don't want to get too in the weeds, but you know, I would recommend to anybody who's interested in learning more, like follow geometry on Twitter, check out some of their research.
Um, and I think that should give you a little bit more insights into what's happening under the hood.
Yeah, uh, that's like, if you want to ask anything specific about this, uh, feel free to reach me or geometry, Twitter, whatever.
We are always happy to discuss cryptography.
Yes, absolutely.
These guys are like, they mean serious business in the cryptography space.
Like they are absolutely experts.
So please, if you do have the opportunity to learn from them, uh, please take it.
All right.
Well, I think we've kind of come to the end of our conversation.
I do want to let our speakers have one last opportunity for like final thoughts or closing remarks, uh, and then we'll start to wrap this up.
So let's start with, uh, maybe Connor.
We haven't heard from you in a minute.
If you have any closing thoughts, totally fine.
If not.
Um, yeah, I don't know.
Uh, the good space.
Thanks for the questions.
Uh, this is a lot of fun.
Awesome.
Okay.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thank you so much for joining.
Um, Steve, do you have any, any final thoughts for us before we wrap?
Just, yeah.
Excitement.
It's, you know, announced the, the day to the hard fork ZK apps coming.
It's the result of a lot of building over a lot of time.
And I think we can see the like momentum and the excitement, right?
Like, uh, someone said on Twitter in the same week, it was, uh, hard fork mainnet launch date, um, Celestia integration.
Like, you know, we've just got a really good, um, drumbeat of stuff happening at the moment.
Um, and it's exciting.
I'm glad everyone tuned in.
Thanks for having us, Maddie.
You're so welcome.
Yeah.
And also the O1JS, uh, version 1.0, right?
Yes.
I'll just say for me getting beaten up by my team when I get off the call.
Hey, listen, I've, I've gotta, I've gotta support my, my ecosystem partners.
Um, awesome.
All right.
Well, thanks so much everyone for joining us.
I've, I've really had fun and learned a lot.
Um, I think that this has been a great space.
I'm just really looking forward to seeing how this work progresses.
Um, if you are a developer and you want to build a ZK rollup or app chains or ZK apps on Vena, uh, definitely check out our website and head over to docs.
Uh, we'll also be having some hackathons coming up in the next couple months.
So keep an eye out for those as well.
I think with that, we'll, uh, we'll call this a day, but thanks everyone.
Thanks Maddie.
Thanks all.
Thanks.
Have a good one.
Goodbye.
Bye.
Bye.
