all right let's get after it
Uh, Smack, are you with us?
Um, sorry, I'm running a little bit late.
It's one of these chaos days.
I'm actually super excited to be able to finally interview you.
I think people will trickle in and stuff, but, um, yeah, I think
we can probably just get after it.
Uh, the four of us have done these panels, uh, over the last few months,
just to talk about crypto and adventure and markets.
And we've had a lot of fun doing that.
Uh, and we thought Nat and I thought it would be fun just to zoom in and do
some more of the personal background stories, uh, for a couple of us.
Um, and that's kind of the TLDR of what we're up to.
And so we'll, we'll hopefully chat to the extent that you want to share,
obviously as a, as an anon, um, about some of your background and some of what
you're thinking around, uh, crypto these days, and we'll, we'll take it in
a few different directions, but, um, yes, sir.
That's kind of the game plan.
I'll just skip over the stuff that I don't want to talk about.
Well, let's do the pre-crypto, uh, game plan.
Like, what were you doing before crypto land?
What is sort of the story of smack on, on those fronts?
Um, so I pre-crypto, I was like, um, I don't know, I guess, let's see,
Um, I was like one of those people who was more interested in sports
and not necessarily school.
And so like did the bare minimum to get through school.
I applied to one college because I knew where I was going to end up going.
Um, so it was like never interested in doing like the heart of college
application stuff, um, went to school and, and kind of was the same way.
Like took it, um, serious enough, but like spent more of my time, uh, like
was more focused on the sport and not classwork.
And so did like enough to graduate all that stuff, um, and got kind of like
sucked up into the trad-fi, uh, pipeline.
So, so very, very on brand for crypto bro, but yeah.
Yeah, it was, uh, uh, I don't know.
I, uh, yeah, it's, it's funny cause like in hindsight, um, in
I used to hate to read, I like couldn't stand doing like math and stuff like that.
It was just like, felt like such an annoyance.
I really, it was like, yeah, I just want to like hang out with
my friends and leave me alone.
Um, but, uh, but yeah, I don't, I don't, it's, it's funny sometimes because there's
a, there are a decent amount of people anyway, who kind of know what they're
about when they're younger, where it's like that, that sort of throwaway line
of whatever you're doing at 31 was like what you were doing when you're 13.
You get these people who are like, I'm going to be a doctor or like, I'm a
savant at music and I don't know.
I reflect back on that time too.
And it's like, I was pretty mediocre.
I just like, like playing video games and sports.
There's no, there's no signal.
It's, it's, it's so true.
Cause like, and the other thing is people always tell you, uh, well, I don't
know, I also grew up like in an area where, um, there were like a lot, my
friends, like I had a lot of friends or people who lived where I like around
where I lived who were pretty affluent.
And I saw it in like, my parents were like, don't know anything about finance.
They were not like bankers or lawyers or stuff like that, but, um, but kind of
like everybody around me was like, had those types of professions.
And so it was like super, I don't know.
I always felt it kind of like strange.
There was so much pressure to like, take all the AP classes and like, get the
best grades and like, go to like the best school and all this stuff.
I was like, well, you want to do all those things so that like you
Um, and like, I don't know.
I always thought it was kind of like a little bit weird.
Um, like I was, I was never kind of like interested in that.
I was just like, I don't know.
Like seems like I'm in my teens.
Like I'm kind of just trying to hang out with my friends.
Like I'll get good enough grades that my parents aren't on my ass.
And that was like my approach, I would say.
Uh, so for better or worse.
But, but, but I guess like the point I'm making was, yeah, people would be like,
yeah, what do you want to do when you grow up?
And lots of people hat or like, Oh, I want to be a banker.
I want to be like a brain surgeon, all this stuff.
And I was kind of like, dude, I have no idea.
Like I, I don't even know what that means.
So like, even when I got into like trad-fi stuff out of school, it was almost
like by accident, like I didn't know what I was getting into.
Um, I did an interview, like applied, got an interview.
Talked about, I don't know, like you know, nothing when you're starting.
So I can't imagine how bad that interview went, but whatever got into this
program and just like shuffled across a couple of desks and was working in
like structure credit trading, working on like really weird esoteric asset
classes and pretty quickly was like, dude, I, I can't, I can't be doing this
This is one, it's, it's not like interesting at all.
I'm like, this is, I feel kind of like a monkey.
I'm just doing the same thing every day.
Um, and my brain, I was like, I don't know.
It feels like it's turning into oatmeal.
A lot of the people around me are like 10, 15, 20 years older and
they seem pretty miserable.
So that was just never, I was like, okay, well, I know I don't want to do this.
Like, let's find out something I do want to do.
Um, and I don't know, to me, it's always like, there's, there's like people
being like, we'll find something you like to do or like, you know, people
who love what they do don't work, you know, it don't work, right?
That's like the same or whatever, but I don't know.
I always thought it was like, like there's so much easier to say that, uh,
than to do like, there's a finite amount of time, right in life.
And so in the moment you always think it's like, Oh, I got to decide now.
I got to figure out what I'm going to do now.
And like, then you look back a couple of years later and it seems kind of dumb.
It's kind of like, Oh, why, why was that so worked up then?
Um, and so, yeah, I didn't know what I wanted to do.
I knew I didn't want to do that.
Um, but also I think like, I probably didn't actually like, I was pretty
immature still probably until like, I don't know, maybe like three-ish years
out of college when I was like, shit, okay, I know I don't want to do this.
Um, I have to like keep, I have to do something that makes me, um, that,
that like keeps me from stagnating and just kind of like, because in that
role, I always thought it's very easy to just like close your eyes and wake
up 10 years later, because just the way like those trading desks work is like,
Um, and like, it's just, it's just like super easy to fall into like,
Oh, I'll just like keep doing this.
And one day I'll stop and like, Oh, one more bonus, one more of this.
Um, and you can just like all of a sudden 10 years is gone.
So to me, it was like super important to find stuff to be doing outside of that.
That at least kept me like intellectually stimulated or like felt like I was doing
something to change what I was going to do for the rest of my life.
And like, I took the CFA.
I studied for that on like nights and weekends, even though it had
nothing to do with what I was doing.
And it was mostly like, all right, this will keep me, I'll
fold myself accountable, um, like doing something and I was, it was kind of
like, I don't know, maybe that's something, maybe I'll like fall into
something again for through this.
Um, a roommate of mine traded foreign exchange at like another bank.
So he was on a different trading desk and he was like, I always joke.
He's like the weird brain dude, like super, one of my, probably
like one of my smartest friends, but just like a little bit strange.
And he was like, yo, these people are talking about digital currency.
Um, I don't really know what it is called Bitcoin.
Like we should try to figure out like, let's see if we can like buy this
thing or like what it is and figure out all this stuff.
Like he sent me the white paper.
I was going, dude, I don't know.
Like, what, like, what is this thing?
You send me a white paper.
It's like, it looks like a research paper.
Well, what does this have to do with like money?
What are we talking about?
Like I didn't get it at all.
Um, it was like peer to peer payments.
Um, so that was like, that was like how, yeah, like that's what I did before
I found any, found anything in crypto.
Um, and it was, yeah, I don't know.
It was kind of like happenstance.
Like that, I always had this thing where I'm like naturally, I think
pretty comfortable with like risk taking.
So that's like something that obviously is like you learn about yourself
over time, but for me, it was always kind of like every year when I
would give my bonus, I would have done something the last like three or
four months to be like, all right, I'm just going to ape into like one or
two things with this because I thought like, all right, it's an asymmetric
bet, like if it goes to zero or whatever, I don't care.
Like it's not that big of a deal.
Um, so that's how, that's how I always thought about stuff.
And that year he like brought it up to me in the early part of the year.
So I forget what the other thing I was going to buy was, but I ended up
aping into Bitcoin and Fannie Mae stock.
Cause I had this like, I had this thesis.
I was like, dude, when Fannie Mae comes out of conservatorship, like this
thing's going to moon, I had this like whole theory about it.
I was like reading a bunch of stuff.
But I'm just cackling behind the muted mic because this is such a new play.
Was it the, was it the finance piece that got you interested in
crypto, the speculative piece?
Cause you're obviously working in finance, but what was a thread
that like got you to stick around, you know?
So, so I bought a bunch of Bitcoin and was like, that got me interested in like,
okay, I bought this thing because my friend who I think is smart said I should
buy some of it and like, I didn't get it at all and didn't really pay too much
attention to it for like a year after that.
Um, I just knew like I own some and was like, I don't really get this thing.
Whatever I can check the price.
I kind of assumed it was going to zero.
Um, and then like at some point the following years when I saw like the, I, I
read like the Ethereum, like about smart contracts and that's when I was kind of
like, all right, this makes like more sense to me.
Like I can wrap my head around smart contracts a lot more than I could at
that time, wrap my head around like a made up P like a P2P payment system.
Like I didn't get, I didn't get like the whole point of peer to peer to peer
payments at all, um, for at least like, I don't know, probably two years after I
So it was probably honestly, I think it's probably like the smart contract
stuff that made sense to me.
Um, what, um, what timeframe is this just for extra?
This was, um, like early 2015 and then probably didn't look at Bitcoin for like
18 months, like, I don't know.
Um, so probably like Ethereum, I probably got interested in.
I think studying actually can remember is like studying first at the CFA at some
point in like a Starbucks, like the following year.
So it was definitely like the smart contract stuff.
And then I would start, I was just like at my desk reading all the way.
I started printing out all the white papers.
I was reading all those things, like not really spending much time.
Like I was kind of a shitty employee.
Um, for a little there when I was just, I was like, look, I, I, I've like told the
woman who ran my desk, I was like, I've told you like a couple of times.
Yeah, I'm not going to be here that much longer.
And, uh, and yeah, so I was, I was just intellectually, I was like, this
stuff is so much more interesting.
Um, and I was finding myself reading it on like weekends.
And so it was pretty easy, pretty, again, I like kind of feel like I sell into it
where it's like, all right, I found this thing that I am like super interested in
and want to spend my time doing even in my free time and like, cool.
Um, I'm going to like quit my job and, and like figure out what to do here.
So how do you get from, you know, just like the casual thing to like, you know,
being a whole crypto VC, like bridge that got for us.
Um, yeah, so like, I was a, um, I was a lurker on crypto Twitter, uh,
So like, I literally never tweeted.
Uh, I just like read a bunch of kind of like the, um, people I followed on
Twitter that was just like, Oh, these people, I think know more about crypto.
Like my, this is like my way to kind of keep up with what's going on.
Um, I was in a bunch of discords too, but, um, yeah, I didn't, so I was like,
I traded crypto for a little bit, but like, that's kind of boring to me.
So I didn't, I still, yeah, it's like less interesting.
Um, wrote some angel checks.
Like I was very, I was like on the periphery.
Um, and then COVID happened and I was like, so bored and started tweeting.
Cause I was like, all right, whatever.
Like I might as well tweet.
Uh, so I started tweeting about, yeah, I don't know, random stuff, like
tradify and crypto and like, Hey, this is what I think about these things.
Um, and was it this account or did you have a different one?
Yeah, it was this account.
Um, and so yeah, I was just like, uh, started tweeting.
And at some point I, I started like a couple of the, um, like
market making desks, I think, um, at that time were like, Hey, we're
going to spin up venture arms.
Like, oh, crypto is like blowing up.
We, we want people who like can do both of these things, right?
Oh, you can trade liquid stuff and you can do venture.
And like, we need VCs and everybody was starting to fund.
Um, so I was talking to you like a couple of like the market maker teams
that were trying to spin up VC funds.
And I just like was not interested really in, um, like being a market
maker for liquid tokens, like, dude, this is literally what I didn't want.
I don't want to do this just with a different asset class.
Um, and at some point I DM'd a Mike and, um, I asked him, I was asking about
like, uh, one of these other places or like one of these other things,
Um, and he and I just like, I don't know, started DMing for a bit.
Um, and I was like, yeah, I'm talking to these people.
Um, and I was asking him like questions about it.
And at some point he was like, yeah, well, uh, you know, we maybe want to find
somebody to focus on crypto here because, um, they had been, you know, investing
in crypto for a bunch of years at that point.
Um, but we're a like, like not just a crypto fund.
So we do a bunch of other like deep tech stuff.
And, um, and so like he was the only person there at the time who
like was doing crypto stuff.
And so he was like, yeah, we should chat.
And then, uh, yeah, he and I met a couple, a bunch of times over, I don't
know, uh, a bunch of months.
Yeah, probably five, six, yeah, maybe longer, six plus months.
Um, and looked at some stuff that they were looking at.
Uh, we talked about some like deals.
We talked about a rent, a bunch of crypto stuff.
And yeah, that's like kind of how it happened.
Eventually we were both like, Hey, um, what would this look like?
Um, and yeah, I think like from my perspective, it was very much like
I was optimizing for like, okay, I want to work with people who I
think are like smart people who like give a shit about the same stuff
And I was less interested in like, I don't know, some of the other
people who I'd spoken to and like the direction that they wanted to
take like their funds in to me, it was like, all right, I want to join
like people I think are smart, who are doing interesting stuff, who
have like unique ideas, who are spending time like at the earliest
stages and who want to do this for like a really long time.
Honestly, this funny backstory, it's interesting what I've said to
Matt in advance of some of these interviews is, uh, you never really
get these specific opportunity to interview your friends and be like,
so actually tell me this about your life with that as being kind of
So I appreciate the, I mean, dude, honestly, someone like my friends
in real life are the same way.
Like I'm, I'm pretty private in real life too.
Like my friends joke that they don't really know what's going on in my life.
Most of my in real life friends, they like don't really know what I do.
They're like, Oh, he works in crypto.
Like they have no, I know you have this account.
Like do they, um, there's like, there's like maybe two or three, like
my friends are not on Twitter.
Well, we can, we can use this moment actually to ask, like Matt has some
questions around you being in a non.
Um, so I'll let you tee that up.
I guess curious, like what made you want to do that as you came into this
industry and then also like, you know, how your experience has been trying to
network and just like working in the space as a non, like curious to hear
just more about the decision behind it.
And then your experience.
Um, the, uh, for me, it was more like, I just didn't want anybody to have any
associations with, um, like who, like where I grew up, what I look like, where
I went to school, what I did before, uh, getting into crypto, like all of those
things to me is just like, uh, I'm kind of, I'm like a, uh, human like behavior
I like love reading those books.
And so for me, it was always like people have biases that they know or like that
they either know about or don't know about.
And I just wanted to like remove as much of those as I could.
So like, even today, like I have them.
If you told me, oh, this person is like from this school or it looks like this,
like, I don't mean to immediately have like a thought about what that person's
Um, and you can like fight it, but like some of that subconscious.
So for me, it was always like, all right, I just kind of want to strip as much of
And that was like the impetus for it.
I think it's, um, I don't know.
Like I'm not completely anonymous.
Obviously I go to a bunch of events in real life.
Um, some, I would say like most people are.
Most people are like, wait, you're smack.
Like I thought you were X, Y, and Z in real life.
They'd be like, Oh, I think you're this.
I thought, so that's like kind of funny to me because that's almost
like the whole point is sweet.
Like you all think I'm like some other, like you all have some different
Um, because like, that's kinda cool.
Like I, I'd prefer that actually.
Like it's people, some people think it's a, it's kind of weird.
Like, uh, when I go to, when I go to like some of the trad-fi stuff that we do with
like the fund, um, it's a, it can be like a little bit awkward.
Where like there's just people who are not in crypto or who think it's like the
weirdest thing in the world when I introduce myself as smack, um, that's
kind of like, yeah, it's a little bit weird and like kind of awkward, but I
don't know, like it gives you a buffer.
I've been thinking about this a little bit.
Um, it gives you a buffer to share your thoughts in a way that's more
authentic than you might otherwise as a docs person, right?
So like that, that's an edge.
It's more just interesting.
Cause I think you're the only example that I can think of, at least in venture
where it's like, even your email, like you just are on a knot, but working
at a traditional fund with normal humans, right?
So it's just, it's odd in that you are an outlier.
It makes a lot of sense on the social side, just to share, like you've
said, right, where you're always going to have those thoughts.
Um, some people just choose to not tweet them.
Some people have alt accounts, whatever, but it does let you kind of build
a brand for that over time.
Yeah, it's definitely true.
Um, when I was joining to Mike was kind of like, uh, so what do you want?
Like, well, what do you want your email to be?
Like people here to call you because he knows my name because of
So he was kind of like, all right, what do you want to be called?
How should I refer to you?
Cause yeah, it's not like a crypto only fund.
So I was kind of like, this is going to be a interesting conversation when I'm
like, yeah, uh, so I just want to go by smack.
Um, it's just like, uh, it was a nickname that, uh, two of my buddies, I don't, I
actually don't remember when they started calling me that, like, I don't
remember the event or the incident or like what happened that they started
calling me that, but, uh, but I have two friends, not on Twitter.
Um, who started calling me that and, uh, I don't remember when they started calling
Twitter, um, who started calling me that and they're kind of like the only people
actually in my life in real life who call me smack, uh, them and one of their wives
incidentally, it was just kind of funny.
Uh, but yeah, nobody else.
It's, it's, it's like a very niche thing.
Like it's Twitter people and then two friends.
If you could do it all over, would you still do the anon thing?
And if so, would you do it differently or would you do it the exact same way?
Um, I would, I would definitely do what I did again.
I would, I like, I, I prefer, yeah, I think I would do it again.
I think like the benefits, um, and like the freedom I felt that I had when I was
like talking and writing and tweeting and stuff is been much more beneficial.
And I think I probably would have been less likely to be as vocal and like put
my thoughts out there if I was the docs version of me.
Um, yeah, I don't remember what the second part you asked actually was.
That was like, just what'd you do?
Now, now I debate like how many alts I should be using, but, um, but yeah, I
would do, I would do the same thing to be honest.
Do you, do you, do you, do you, let me ask you, cause you guys are both docs.
Do you ever, maybe you have alts already, but, uh, do you ever feel like there's
stuff you don't want to say or write or something because you're docs?
Like without question, um, very, and that's why, that's why, that's why
telegram was such a great place.
Cause it's like, I can just sort of be real microcretts, but absolutely.
And I'm kind of like, this is not even really docs, but I do one thing that I do
do in crypto just in general is like, I don't have any like high quality recent
photos of myself on the internet, like my personal social media or anything.
So I'm kind of like, I guess in the middle between like where you are and
like being fully identifiable, but I, sometimes I do wish I had a little bit
more, um, around like sharing my thoughts for sure.
I feel like when I joined in 2019, everyone was a non.
So I was just like, I'm not going to stick out at all.
If I'm a non, like there's no way I'm going to run up an account.
So I'll just be like me and add my mug on there as a PFP.
And it ended up working decently just as a comp point of contrast.
Cause it's like, wow, is that a real person?
I like shifted obviously through whatever 2020, I think probably by that point, I
had some sort of crypto PFP, but, um, definitely feel the, the bump of wanting
to share things, but not really being able to just cause you don't want to burn
bridges and whatever, right?
I think that like I've also always, um, yeah, like I've been, I'm a, I'm like a
very private person in real life too.
Like I was never a social media person.
I was never really like an Instagram person, Facebook.
Um, I never had, I had Instagram and then I like deleted it.
Um, or I had it and I changed my username and was like telling people stop tagging
me and stuff, cause I don't look at this.
Um, and then I deleted it eventually, but I'd never been, yeah, never been,
never been on those things that I used to hate when people would tag me in photos.
So the non thing is kind of like, yeah, it's cool that it's like people do it
in crypto, I was like, this is great.
I'm definitely doing this.
Well, let's, um, let's shift into some crypto specific conversation.
I feel like there's a bunch of things that Matt and I want to ask, uh, but we'll
start with a couple of just simple things.
Um, on the venture side, we were asking JMO, these are like three questions
I'll borrow from when we talked to him and then we can kind of go more
specific on, on your stuff.
Um, but what's an early bet that you made that went well?
Um, and what's an early bet that you made that went poorly could be like for
compound or formally it could be privately angel stuff could be liquid.
Um, yeah, just curious if you have stories to share on the, on the pro and the con side.
So I would say on the, there's lots of cons.
I've made lots of bad investments for sure.
Um, I, I was like a believer in auger in the OG days, like, oh, prediction
markets, the shit's going to the moon.
Yeah, dude, like that was, that was one that, um, I don't know.
Again, I think it's probably like, Hey, I kind of understand this thing.
And so like, I can map it to what's going to happen.
Like in the real world, do smart contracts will make this stuff so efficient.
And like, yeah, I had plenty of like dumb things I did there.
I'm like the, the, I would say, yeah, like how many, how many most, I'd say most of
the like bad bets are going to be stuff that I did personally, just because, um,
on like the compound things, I'm not really like, ideally I won't know how
those go until, you know, ideally like those successes come years down the line.
Like, of course you want things to succeed like quickly and you can see how
what kind of progress they make.
But, um, yeah, the bad stuff, like plenty of, plenty of dumb trades.
Um, I over traded when I first got into crypto, uh, for sure.
Um, got wrecked trading stupid coins.
Um, I think probably, I think the like truism of the like whole two
cycles, three cycles, four, whatever.
Like, I think that's for sure true because, um, yeah, I, I, I think it's more
like you learn about how you kind of like learn about yourself and that's the
thing that is super useful the next time you go through a cycle is like how
you behave the last time.
Um, and that's why, yeah, that's why I think like, this is veering a little bit
off of like your question, but that's why I like the journaling stuff.
I think is super important.
Um, which is something I didn't start doing until, uh, probably like 2019 ish.
20, yeah, around that time.
Um, but I made like, yeah, I couldn't even tell you.
I made so many like dumb decisions from the first couple of years I was in crypto.
Um, and I think a lot of the mistakes are like, a lot of the mistakes are just
trying to keep up with everything.
Um, and trying to think that like, Oh, I can stay on top of all of these things
and chasing like the shiny thing.
Um, when I first got into crypto, uh, I did a little bit less the next time, but
I still did it and you kind of like trick yourself into thinking, uh, like, no, no,
things are different this time because of X, Y, and Z reasons, but you're always
going to be able to make that argument.
Like things always look best when prices are going up and like, you'll be able to
talk yourself into why that's the case.
And I definitely did that a bunch of times, um, which I don't know.
I think at some point you get, you get a little bit like, uh, what's the word you
get kind of, I think the longer, the longer you spend in crypto, you start getting
like more comfortable not being involved in everything, which is like one of the
I think that most people, it's almost like there's a shift in mindset that you can
see of people being like, yeah, I didn't follow that or like, yeah, I saw that
happening, but I didn't pay attention to it.
And it's like, once you realize you can't keep up with everything and you kind of
have to like pick your spots, it's, it's like pretty, uh, it's like,
yeah, I totally, totally, totally agree with that.
Um, yeah, I've like, as you're saying that I was just like in the background,
like pounding my, even today, like you guys will send something.
I'm like, dude, I haven't even heard of that, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
online literally 17 hours a day for real, man.
Next question can be, um, which we also asked Jmo, but like, do you have a highest
conviction area in crypto right now?
If you don't, we can also talk about why that is, but it's about it.
Dude, I might get voted out on this game as we speak, by the way, my, my group
might be like scheming against me for all I know.
Um, yeah, I am at, uh, what is my, yeah.
So I think, um, I do really like deepen stuff, just like the category, but I think
there's probably, I think it's difficult because on the one hand, I like it because
like part of the reason I'm not like a decentralization maxi.
So like part of my whole thing with all of these crypto, um, protocols and projects
is like, does it actually solve like a big in real life or like real world problem?
And deepen is like the area where you can kind of like see it most clearly, which I
think is both good and bad.
Um, it's good because like, I actually do think that there's going to be massive
deep in networks, it's bad because I think there's also going to be a ton of stuff
that like you, you would look at it and go, yeah, this makes sense on the surface.
And then it's just like, it shows up or like, there's reasons that industry
doesn't work the way you thought it worked because there's nuances to this
thing that you just, you just don't know about.
Um, and so deep in stuff is super interesting.
Like I was actually, yeah, there, there's like cool things beyond, um, the compute
networks, like those things I think are cool.
Um, I think crypto and AI are converging.
I'm not going to like go too buzzwordy on that stuff because it's, it's like crypto
is hard enough as a technical area and like AI is hard enough.
And so the convergence is not, it's not like, oh, they fit so easily.
And so this like, that's great.
Yeah, I think it's like the difficulty level is like exponential.
Um, but that's, that's still super interesting.
And then I'm still a DeFi person.
Like I'm still convinced we're going to get under collateralized lending
markets on, um, on crypto rails.
And so like that space is interesting from the lens of, um, fixed, like
fixed rate markets, like it's, it's so boring sounding to crypto people.
And I get that like, who cares about fixed rate, like APIs.
Nobody wants to hear that, but like in my opinion, you need, you need like a fixed
rate, true yield curve to build all these kinds of like cool options protocols
that people talk about and like more sophisticated financial products.
And like, I truly believe that I think I sometimes argue with people about
whether that's true or not, but I, I definitely believe that.
And so like, I think once you get that, then you can start to get
under collateralized lending.
I think you start to be able to do like credit scoring on chain and you can
build a lot more sophisticated stuff, um, in DeFi.
So that's where I try to spend most of my time.
I hate to say it, but I'm trying, I'm trying.
Cause that game is actually fun.
So the cart game as a, as a Mario cart, like enthusiast, it's fun to
kind of play with the, with the, um, like CT homies.
That's actually a, um, a very good lead into the next question, which we were
going to ask is like, what's your kind of unconventional opinion?
But I think maybe gaming is a great place to double down.
Cause I know that you, we joke, but like you are a little bit bearish on it.
So maybe you talk about why you're not, uh, compelled by all some of the hype
that is compelling other people.
Um, so I, I will give you like a little bit of a caveat, but I, I do think like
we're going to see some crypto games that get massive and are huge successes.
And, um, I hope people dunk on me when that happens.
And they're like, ha ha ha.
Um, because like, honestly, like I hope crypto games go crazy and they bring
a hundred million users and that would be sick.
I would love to see that.
Um, like I won't, I won't, I won't bear the fruits of those, like those
gaming things that are successes, but that's cool.
My whole thing on gaming is just, I just don't fit like, so to me, games become
fun or like take new mediums when it's like this enables some kind of new behavior.
And my whole thing is just, I don't, I personally don't think that an off-chain
game where you like on the asset is enables anything new.
Like you could say, Oh, you it's ownership.
And, um, I think that's true to an extent.
But my personal opinion is that doesn't actually matter to people who play
games for the most part, and maybe that changes, um, maybe like, that's just
a bad assumption, um, also it could be true, but that's just my opinion.
And then, so if that's true, which, okay, that's what I believe.
And then I think, okay, what about all like fully on-chain games?
Does that enable a new behavior?
And I actually think that does, but I don't, to me, it doesn't feel as if we
are particularly close to having like a fun game that is completely on-chain.
And so part of that is, okay, I spent a ton of time in like the Ethereum ecosystem
for a long time, obviously I've spent a lot more time in Solana, but it's like
blockchains, I like, there's very few places where that, where like, you could
even theoretically build that type of game today.
And so I just think like, I'm not going to be the person who finds that, like,
that thing that people, that blows up, like it's just not going to be me.
And so like, I joke about kind of like fighting it, but like I can only, I have
to pick the things that I'm going to spend time on and gaming is not an area
I spend time on, so like, it is a little tongue in cheek when I, when I joke
about how crypto games suck.
Um, but it is like, I actually do believe that there aren't really
any fun crypto games and I've, I've played a decent amount of ones that
Um, I'm not going to act like I play them all, but yeah, that's like kind
of where I come from on the gaming stuff.
I hope somebody builds sick games.
Um, I actually talked to the, like the parallel guys showed, showed us what
they're working on, um, with like the agent stuff and like that stuff's cool.
But my whole thing is just like, I think games just take way longer than people
realize, and I think they're much more expensive to build than people realize.
And so, um, I'm, uh, I think not, I think most people are going to have a
I, um, I, I largely agree with that.
And I actually think that's like a great, it plays well into the point you made
earlier about like, once you've been around for a couple of cycles, you kind
of know like what to leave alone and like, you don't feel the need to chase
everything and you have that self-awareness of like, even if gaming
is the thing, like maybe I'm not the person to like spot the next thousand X.
So yeah, a hundred percent.
Like it's not going to be me.
So it's like, let's not even waste our time.
Like trying to play that game.
Like, cause even when I see like, I still, people will send them to me.
I'll look at like decks and look at games and be like, this looks cool.
But like, I have no idea.
Like, like maybe it is cool.
Maybe it's sick, but like, I don't know.
This kind of looks like the last thing I looked at, you know, so I don't really
have a good frame of reference.
So I just, I'm like, look, I'm just not going to spend my time on it.
This is also like a more than crypto thing that games are just hard to invest in.
It's hard to know what is fun, like what is durable, right?
Even if you listen to the game craft guys or anyone who's had some success, like
in gaming, sort of venture investing in gaming, it's so hard.
There's so few, like very clear winners, right?
So it's also just more than, more than a crypto problem.
Um, yeah, I also, I'll give you, I'll give you one more, like a quick, spicy
meta take on what I think most people in crypto would also disagree with me on.
Which is, yeah, maybe a little too meta, but all right.
So I think there's like an underlying ethos in crypto that like, okay, we should
decentralize everything, distributed stuff, shared ownership, like more people get to
own things that's way better than centralize entities, but I think that actually, and
maybe, yeah, I think most people would probably disagree with this, but like, I
actually think that, so that leads to like an equality of opportunity, right?
More people have the ability to do these things, have the ability to access these
things, and, um, the opportunity is like more equal in some sense, but I actually
think that that, like equality of opportunity actually creates like more
inequalities of outcomes.
And so like open source networks, anyone can contribute, but that also means that
like any single person can reach a much larger scale on their own than ever before.
And like very small groups can do the same thing.
So like a very small group of people can reach a way bigger scale than ever before.
And so I think actually because of that, like it wouldn't surprise me.
I don't know, I don't know how strongly I feel about this, but it wouldn't surprise
me if like the wealth creation actually becomes like a way more centralizing
force from these networks, which is like not, not what we're necessarily looking
for, but it's something I've been like thinking about recently.
Um, and it may, it was like top of mind.
Cause I saw, uh, what's his, I saw Sam today talk about like, oh, like a single
person is going to be able to build a billion dollar company soon.
And that like triggered me again to think like, okay, well, I do think like there's
this, there's maybe like a misperception of some of this stuff, but I don't know.
That's like, I haven't talked too much to people about it.
Um, I would love to hear the arguments against me because it's something I
haven't thought too, too much about, but yeah, it was top of mind.
Uh, and I don't think a lot of people, I think a lot of people might disagree with
Yeah, I am upon hearing it.
My instinct is not to immediately dismiss it.
I think there's maybe actually something to that.
Um, but maybe you're not.
Um, but no, I think we have like one more, uh, longer question before we can maybe
do some like rapid fire, but one thing I would really love to hear your thoughts
on is like, because you work out of fun, that's not just crypto.
You guys do other stuff, AI, bio, you know, other, other areas, like curious the
ways in which you think that might be an edge or like enhances your crypto research,
because that's obviously not something that most of us have access to.
So yeah, I would love to hear about that.
Um, yeah, it's, it's definitely good and bad.
Um, I think it's obviously, I think it's net better.
Um, otherwise I wouldn't have joined, but, um, so I think it's super useful for,
um, one, just thinking about, uh, getting like people's perspectives who are not
using this necessarily every day.
And so like the questions I hear at IC are generally, um, like higher level,
not in the weeds, but also like, um, more commercialized, like kind of, uh, like
how does this thing that you want to invest in actually, um, like a crew
value and like, what does that look like?
Um, so I think it's, I think it's super useful from that perspective.
I think it's very helpful from, uh, understanding like problems in adjacent
industries and whether or not the stuff that we have in crypto can help solve
And so that's particularly useful.
Um, like on the AI side for sure.
Uh, because we see like, we have like funded a bunch of like traditional AI
companies that have now grown into like huge companies.
And then we see the problems that they have on like the compute side.
And like, what are the issues that they face and what are the problems they see?
And so we like, I think from that perspective, we have the ability to kind
of like very deeply understand the issues that exist outside of crypto.
And then like do the things within crypto.
Are we able to, um, use those rails or like find people building like AI first
companies that have turned to crypto because they can't solve the problem
with traditional technology or, you know, an energy first company that is like,
Hey, there's this problem.
And like, actually smart contracts make it way more efficient.
Um, like we can use this technology to do that.
And so I think it's super helpful from that lens.
I think like a lot of times we get on, when I get on calls with like founders.
Generally, um, I think, I mean, this is my perception, but I think that there's a
sense that like, Hey, you guys spend, like you ask like very thoughtful questions.
And a lot of that is because I think we have like useful industry, like
knowledge collectively, um, that like people I work with get because they're
not spending all their time in crypto.
And so when we talk to people building stuff that are like crypto adjacent,
like it's helpful for me to be there, but it's also like a lot of times the subject
matter expert is like, Oh, this is like very science focused, or this is bio
focused, or this is like AI focused.
And, um, it's just a lot of those founders are like, yeah, it's super useful to
have somebody who actually like deeply understands both of these things.
Um, and yeah, I think like our belief is that these things kind of just,
they're going to keep converging.
So presumably like, I am biased towards, um, like start with the problem
and then like work backwards.
I think Mike is probably the same way.
So I think it's useful from that lens.
I think where it's like very difficult is, um, like idea sharing.
So I talked to like a bunch of, I have a bunch of telegram groups with other
people, because like Mike spends time in crypto, but it's not like the whole
fund does, and so I need to be like constantly talking to people outside of
the fund to be like, just, just to like have a sense of the way people are
thinking, like what is interesting to other people?
Like what are people's thoughts on it?
Like it's, it can be like a little siloed outside, um, just because like I'm
the only person spending a hundred percent of my time on it.
And so I have my own thoughts.
I have my own like opinions, but bouncing the ideas off of other people is a bit
more difficult, um, because we're not like focused as a fund on just crypto stuff.
But it's, I, I really like it too, because like, I don't know.
I get to see like cool, like robotic stuff and like AI stuff and like weird
bio things that, um, make me like, those like lead me down to read weird
articles or like research papers.
And that like, I don't know.
I always think that that's like the curiosity thing is super useful.
You can't feel it like right away, but I kind of just believe that over
time that stuff compounds, um, and you like find cool stuff or weird stuff.
And then like, there's very few people spending time in those areas.
And so you kind of have a, have a little bit of an edge of, Hey, there's only a
handful of people who care about like energy and crypto.
And so like there's, let's go talk to people who care about that.
Um, so I think it, I think it's, I think it's good to be honest.
Well, you just get to see crypto, like in wider conversation with other topics.
Which is why I think you have rare rare takes.
Cause not a lot of people are sitting at the kind of Ben diagram of, yeah,
like energy and crypto or whatever.
Like random stuff like that.
We have a couple of things we want to hit you with.
We do want to have like a hard stop at the hour.
Um, so I'll, I'll reduce this to two questions.
You're putting your entire net worth into a single NFT and or NFT collection, um,
at the end of the night, which are you picking and why?
And I'm holding it forever.
You were holding it for a five year term.
Um, I'm still buying punks.
Other thing is actually since you asked, you answered that so quickly.
I was figuring you would hum and hum.
No, no, no, no, as a, as a non NFT here, but yeah, that's the problem.
So like knock sorry, sorry to pugs holders.
Slight riff on that same question in the same five year time span.
So you're getting into a spaceship on the way to Mars.
You can't manage your own money.
Who are you giving it to, to manage on your behalf?
Oh, that's a good question.
Um, somebody in crypto, you mean?
I'm assuming like could be friend or friend or anything.
Well, I can't pick Dempsey.
Like, how much do you trust JMO?
Um, no, I'm not giving him all my money.
Um, yeah, who could, I don't know.
I'm not, I'm not the most trusting person.
I don't have a long list of who I'm giving my money to five years.
And they, uh, can I give it a Kobe?
That, that probably works well.
I feel like he wouldn't lose it.
Yeah, he wouldn't get hacked.
Um, I would, you know what?
I would maybe give it a placeholder.
I would give it a placeholder.
I think he's like smart dude.
I don't always agree with him, but, um, but yeah, he seems like similar vibe.
Like, yeah, he's not going to lose it.
And he's not going to like eat it into like scam garbage.
Yeah, he's like, he's got a moral compass.
So I'll give it, I'll give it to them.
They were the first thesis I read in 2019.
Like they're fun thesis where I kind of clicked to be like, I
should work in this industry.
Yeah, they got good stuff.
And well, I think we'll, we'll cap it there.
Thank you everybody for, uh, for tuning in and listening to smack.
And thank you, man, for coming on.
And yeah, I hope everyone has a good night.