Alright, we got rugged on the old link, my bad, don't know what happened, Twitter falling
Um, can you guys mic check or maybe just smack?
I invited Jamo to be a co-host and he rejected it.
I can cancel your co-host invite.
Sorry, just quick, quick on the rejection.
And we got Nat, let's mic check for you too.
Yeah, can you guys hear me?
Man, not gonna lie, I have hosted four hours of Twitter Spaces already today, so I am pretty
cooked and happy to like MC a little bit, but very curious just to kind of hear some
Um, I will wait and just sort of like riff a little bit as people come through, but maybe
instead of doing the classic, like give us your intro thing for new people, um, why don't
we do like, what have you been spending most of your time on so far in the new year?
Um, whether that's like for work or occupying your headspace in terms of what you're kind
Um, and by the time we get through that, we can kind of start to hit our list of things
I'll go first and I'll pass it off.
Um, I think I've been spending a lot of my headspace on D pen and payments.
Um, and then also a lot on, uh, air drop farming and points.
As a practitioner or as a strategist, bro, uh, you know, both, I think it's, and I think
hopefully I discuss, but I think, um, I like started writing a piece about it just because
I haven't seen something this polarizing maybe since the blast.
Like I feel like it was friend tech that was super, super polarizing then blast and now
Um, so yeah, I, I feel like there's a lot of room to, uh, discuss with kind of the
future of that, uh, that part of the industry, but, um, also trying to get my bags and
Smack, do you want to go?
Um, I've been trying to figure out, uh, trying to like prioritize where I'm going to, this
is maybe a cop out, but trying to prioritize like where I'm actually going to spend my time
over like the next quarter.
Because I think, uh, like when you're one person and, uh, you can only spend your time
And so it's like very easy as the bull market, which the last week notwithstanding, um, comes
You get like dragged in a million different directions and it's, uh, yeah, I'm more
like trying to figure out what's the most interesting stuff I should be spending my
time on, uh, outside of kind of like the areas that I feel pretty comfortable, uh, knowing
what's going on and having an opinion.
So yeah, a lot of that for sure, man.
One of the themes of the earlier space was just like, there's so much chaos going on
in crypto that it's impossible to keep track of everything and trying to figure out how
do you find people in niches and things just to be able to keep track of the information
But, um, even today, my telegram is a disaster, so real dude, absolute nightmare.
So interesting to, I think that's probably the problem for me anyway.
It's not like you're working in a boring industry where you have to keep track of
everything because it's a half to it's like, oh man, I would love to know more about
whatever the hell is happening on whatever chain, but no time.
Um, anyway, let's go to Matt.
What have you been up to?
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of writing lately.
Um, put out a piece earlier today about identity, which is honestly just me going
deeper on consumer, just trying to like really unpack and deeply like what's
blocker and they're still what that, what the correct form factor for winning
consumer app and crypto would look like spending time on Solana as usual on
the consumer layer there and then also like beginning to try to tease out like
what could potentially be interesting about the crypto and AI space outside of
just like everything that's been said about decentralized compute and like
agents and all that stuff.
Um, so more so in the research phase there, but yeah.
Makes sense before we get going.
I just have to share anecdotally, like for people who are listening, we applied
to speak on a panel like the four of us for one of these conferences later in
the year and I was catching up with my mom and telling her about it.
And I was like, yeah, it's Jonathan, Natalie, Benjamin, and snack.
Just not, not used to the non stuff, but I haven't told you guys that yet, but
I just thought that was hilarious.
Shout out to your mom who is a crypto user.
She's, she's, she's in the order book.
She's in the points farms out and about her self custody game is really
impeccable, so much better than mine.
Anyways, well, let's, let's get after it.
Maybe we'll start with points, um, just cause Jamo brought it up and then I
think we should talk about Celestia and the whole, you know, modular stuff,
all of these things, um, but yeah, maybe let's start with, um, rabbit hole
slash quest protocol, that whole piece.
Cause I think they're kind of the OG people in this vertical, you guys
invested in them curious for like an update, maybe from you, Jamo, like
is that, have you been tracking that?
Yeah, man, uh, um, a hundred percent.
I think, you know, rabbit hole has, we, so we invested back in, uh, early
2022, um, back when they were trying to do more of like a learn to earn
platform, um, and kind of went through an iteration of like, how do you
really try to find like data integrity when it comes to incentivizing
on chain actions, because obviously almost everything that we're doing
is getting civil attacked.
And it's really, really difficult to, um, differentiate like a real user
versus someone who is just absolutely mercenary who the moment they are
done claiming their tokens, right.
They are never using that app again.
And so rabbit hole, I think has definitely benefited from the point
system, but I think always trying to provide like transparency, um, with
their data and with what people are doing on chain.
And I think just understanding that at the end of the day, instead of trying
to incentivize people to learn, there's a lot of assumptions made into that.
We can just incentivize on chain actions.
And I think that is powerful given just the, like still the nascent, you
know, development of a lot of these, you know, L2's staking, um, different
So I think rabbit hole itself, you know, as they, uh, in quest, as they
start to, you know, roll out more points, I think, uh, it's going to be a
good example of how you can roll it out in a way that, um, does not, I
think destroy your project, right.
Because for me, one of the most consistent things I see is like existing
founders with tokens already in market, um, are like re it's really
difficult to navigate when you have competitors who might not have as
good of a product, but are just promising free money.
And so I think, uh, like trying to roll out points in a way that's more
thoughtful and allows you to maintain the quality of your, um, kind of your
user base, uh, I think it's going to be really, really interesting.
So, um, it's been, it's been a long journey for rabbit hole, but
hopefully a lot of really exciting updates, uh, in the future.
No, it's super fun to see them succeeding.
I remember, I think it was literally in 2020 doing DeFi stuff through their
original, you know, like take a loan on Aave and earn whatever one
Mave for, for doing stuff.
Uh, so it's just, you know, it's rare to see a team like build that heart
for that many years with basically no one caring at all.
And then for it to finally work out is pretty sweet.
So if, uh, yeah, people are not aware of that, that company worth
And like wallets from last cycle, they didn't even know we'll, uh,
qualify for certain points.
Um, which I feel like is always a nice surprise in the crypto space.
Do you, I guess I'm curious, do you guys think or like smack in that, uh,
that points are going to be a like necessary component of consumer apps
or infra apps going forward?
Or do you think this is more time and place right now?
I think, yes, but it's going to have to be way more evolved than it is now.
Like this is kind of like the zero, but I think a lot of crypto apps
are going to have some sort of points component.
It's going to be a variance of like how explicitly financial that is,
whether it's more of like an off chain point versus like an actual
tangible token, but I think you're going to see a lot of that.
I feel like, um, this is almost the re it's like the new new cycle version
of when people would talk about L twos and like none of the L twos had tokens
and people would be like, well, there's no point of having a token for the L two.
The only point is like, if you don't have the token, then you're just like
some other L two is going to have a token and people will care more about
that, which is like, obviously it's like a defensive strategy back then.
Um, which is, I mean, this was like years ago now.
I think there's more arguments of, okay, why should you have one?
But I think, I don't know.
I'm, I'm a little bit less convinced that points are going to be a thing
for a longer period of time.
I mean, maybe they are in some type of like loyalty, uh, the way we
think of like Amex points today, but, um, but I don't know.
I think it, it feels like there's been even the last like two or three
weeks, like a shift in people's, uh, like views on this stuff.
Everybody's like just shitting on points, like stop talking about points.
We don't want more points, which is like fine.
Maybe that's just people are pissed prices are down, but, um, but I don't
know, I think there's, it gets to a point of exhaustion or people are
kind of like over it, um, but I don't know.
I also don't have a great sense of like, are you incentivizing the behavior
you want and maybe it's working for some people and not for others.
Honestly, like in specific instances, points are going to make sense.
Cause you can incentivize specific actions for people, but what
crypto folks forget is crypto is like a domain in itself, right?
So people get tired of points because they're already dealing
with points and 16 other projects.
So it was cool when blur kicked it off.
Like people didn't really know what to do with that.
I make a bunch of money, airdrop farming, whatever getting points, uh, when
it's the 50th protocol, you're talking to a new founder and it's
like, Oh, should I do points?
You're like, this is not happening in a vacuum, right?
Like your points are competing against everyone else's points.
And that's why it's just so boring after a while.
So we'll probably still have it.
It's just DeFi summer, like rerun, right?
I'm over it at this point.
It shouldn't feel like points.
Like you can argue that drips droplets are like a form of points, but
it doesn't feel like that at all.
Cause it's, it's serving an actual purpose, which is like
similar resistance within the app.
Um, which is why I say a lot of the stuff I feel like is just be zero
because what it's actually supposed to end up being is just a well-designed
incentive mechanism, so it shouldn't just feel like, you know, some
lazily dropped points thing.
But I think that's generally speaking of what it is today.
I think like the sad reality is also that there's like, you see more
and more points because a lot of places just are like, Hey, like nobody
actually wants to use our app.
Maybe we should release points.
And like, that's just a function of like, uh, there's probably too, too many
applique, like too many of these things doing the same thing with not
enough users and it's like, well, if we release points, maybe we can
get some adoption and then like figure it out.
Um, and I think, yeah, it'll probably work in some places.
I think the drip, the drip house is like a good example of that.
Um, versus like you get to a point of exhaustion.
I think that's where I mean, I guess like do you do credit card rewards?
You'll like points to you guys.
Not in the crypto sense, but also kind of yes.
I just think it like points like in like similar to a lot of other things just
reveal, um, like smack was kind of alluding to the lack of differentiation
between almost any of these things.
And it just like shows the level of bag bias.
Um, and I think like people are, I think there's exhaustion right now because
you don't know which points to grind for because there's like, and you're
like always what the option cause it's crypto, um, because there's not
clarity on like, which of these things will actually be around a long time from now.
Um, I think it's why Celestia is probably going to end up as like, you
know, a great cycle hold given it's like giving you points, quote unquote,
uh, like the biggest all L one trade, right?
Um, and so I think you're shifting to bag showing already.
I'm not, we're like 19 minutes in.
Do you, my first question was about, uh, the portfolio, but, uh, no, man,
I really just think the lack of differentiation and the high degree of
like commoditized like services, um, are just things that people don't want
to address, um, and it's like, it goes from being a meme to being severely
like overexposed to something that won't be around for a long period of time.
And so I think, uh, points are just, I get, I agree with you now.
It's like, I think we're in B zero, but I think in my mind, they're
always going to be around, um, for protocols that actually stand to test the time.
I also think like the really good applications that you actually want to
use, like you're going to use them, whether or not they have points and
like, fine, maybe it's a good mechanism to like bootstrap liquidity for some
of these things that need it.
But like, yeah, there's like the 40th or 50th version of something you're
going to look at it and be like, look, I don't even use that app.
It's just another one of these.
Like it's not worth me even going over there to form this like stupid point thing.
Um, whereas there's like the actual applications you want to use, like, yeah,
most of them are half points programs or have a, have a token now, but it's
like, like if they're actually good, you use them and you're like, uh,
whatever, this is like where I do, uh, swaps or where like the aggregator
I use or all these other things.
It's interesting to think about real life points just from JMO's question,
whether it's credit card stuff, grocery stores, I don't know, coffee
shops and things, I'm not like changing my behavior to collect points in those
places, but I'll do it anyway.
Cause whatever you get 20 bucks of free groceries or something.
Um, but even then there aren't that many places that I would, I don't know,
transact where I get points in real life where pretty quickly when everything
is financialized, like you're just getting points in everything in crypto.
And so I don't, yeah, I struggle, like it's going to be a thing for sure.
Um, I, yeah, I wonder about how incentivized people will really be at
the margin for different stuff.
Um, and it's more like, can you just build good products and people will
dude, it's like, if everybody has points, nobody has points.
Like, so like, I think it'll still exist, but I don't know.
I was just, just to tie it up.
I, uh, I completely agree that, um, I was joking about, but yeah, if
everyone has points, no one has them.
And I think it just, uh, it also kind of like pushes the point to, you
know, we're still very early in the cycle.
Obviously we've sold off and everyone who called the BTC ETF local top
is really, you know, doing their dance.
But like when retail is back, these points in these incentive mechanisms
actually might be like terrifying.
Like the Dwight Howard NFTs with like, like that's literally also be zero.
We can't be having cringe, Dwight Howard doing it though.
Um, but sorry, Ben, to cut you off.
I just think that's something important to keep in the back of our mind too.
Like everyone on this tonight is still so early into all these incentive
programs, um, so it's definitely gonna, I think look much, much crazier.
The, the kind of die off is mostly among crypto people.
Like if, I don't know how even how you would measure this, like how many
people are active on chain on a daily basis, even if it's crypto Twitter.
And you say it's like, okay, it's 50,000 people, if 50,000 people do
something for, you know, a year, eventually the novelty wears off.
And then it's just max point where if everyone has points, no one has points.
And so it's more like my, I'm being a bit cheeky by saying like, I'm over it.
Cause obviously everyone is going to have little granular incentive games.
It's more the crypto people, I think are tired already, right?
Like if open C dropped a token, sure.
Like people would be interested in that, but it's kinda, you know, we went
through DeFi summer, we went through like the 2021 euphoria, we went
through all this point stuff, how excited, like, would people really go
back to open C at that point?
I think the ship has sailed.
And so it's more just, you know, what I find myself talking to people about
is like, if you're going to do the points thing, just know that it's
in conversation with everyone else's points thing.
And so you just have to figure out how to make it somewhat
And I guess last thing I would say is like being just totally honest, I think
to see people deploying them now, like on the VC side is a little bit bearish.
Um, and, and I asked the question of like, what, what exactly are you
trying to incentivize or like, what are you trying to gain as a founder?
If you're launching a points program, like at this specific part of the cycle,
I think shout out to people who launched them like four or five months ago,
like that age well for a lot of people, but to be doing it now and just a very
like vanilla V zero points way, like at this specific moment, I think as an
investor, like, I don't really love to see that.
Well, let's shift to something else.
I think our shortlist was like Celestia Eigen layer and prediction markets.
So a fairly nerdy set of things we could go down.
I think Celestia is probably the most natural thing because people may not be
super aware of what, how it even works, what's going on, why it's interesting.
Um, maybe we should just give Jamo the mic for his, his thesis
and then we can go from there.
I see where we have, uh, some people in the crowd.
Um, I'm not sure if, uh, and somebody to get on stage.
I just invited him on stage.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, Celeste, I mean, Celestia is a, I think a massive
narrative, this cycle, um, because while I think modular money is a meme, the cost
savings for data availability or not.
And so, you know, Celestia is a blockchain that does a great job just
enabling data availability for rollups.
Um, I, I think in, and like, it's just important in my mind to understand, like,
this because there's so nuance, like what are the implications of a lot of this
more like modular, um, like infrastructure and like for me, right?
How is it going to impact consumer applications and consumer experiences?
Um, and so I think, you know, while we're starting to see a lot more projects,
uh, leverage Celestia, we're also starting to see obviously like the
reflexive cycle of air, like people who stake TIA, receive airdrops, more
people buy TIA, more people stake TIA, Celestia goes higher.
Um, as we start to see more of that reflexive relationship, I think, uh,
you're going to start to see more consumer applications that are
associating themselves with Celestia.
And so for me, I start to think about like the implications around
fragmented liquidity, um, and also like, what is that like, I think for the
venture side, I think it's going to be much more difficult to assess deals.
Um, given we're going to have just a much more fragmented and like infra,
I think back to last cycle, um, it was kind of easy to tell that like Tom
Brady's NFT marketplace on flow may not have an edge versus like open
Or some of the other easy on the flow of easy on my bags are also unfortunately
packed, but I, um, I think it like, that was easier to assess the difference.
Um, and like go to market and like the ecosystem properties, but with like a
more modular infra, like, like dynamic going forward, I think the venture
side is going to be much, uh, especially like peak cycle.
Once you know, people aren't negotiating terms, the moment you meet someone,
the round is done once that is back.
I think it's just going to be much more, uh, challenging to assess quality.
So I think Celestia is playing a really important role in a lot of these
airdrops, enabling teams to spin less on data availability, to have more
capital to give to some of these users.
But I think it is also going to change the venture landscape a lot, um,
accelerating interest in modular infra.
That was kind of a long way.
I think Nat and Smack both spend more time there than me.
So I'm curious people think.
Um, I saw this on our group chat the other day, but my like 70 IQ thesis
for Celestia that is basically Adam 2.0, but without the chart bet.
And, um, all I really meant by that was like the, the Adam vision was
kind of going to be like, Adam was going to be this like canonical asset
for this like consumer change shared security vision.
But we're kind of just doing that with Celestia and rollups instead.
And I think that Tia has a chance at being what people wanted Adam to be.
So that's like for Adam probably, but I think maybe it's good
for the cosmos ecosystem is at large, but that's sort of, without
getting into like the ag and layer politics of it, that's sort of my
I don't have too much to add.
I think it's like good on the, like on a super high level, obviously
having like part of the decentralization, like ideas that you have
a bunch of different options.
You're not all like, uh, beholden to one architecture, which I think is
like, I don't really get the people, uh, um, who like complain about
people doing things differently, almost like, Hey, you should do it this way.
It's like our, our decentralization way is the best way.
It's like kind of weird to me.
Like shouldn't you want a bunch of different architectures?
Cause then over time you figure out stuff that's useful for all of them.
Like the Celestia stuff is all, it's cool.
Um, I think Jmo's point around like figuring out the nuances of like
infra is particularly like, uh, I don't know.
It's something that is I think difficult.
He's I like totally agree with that.
And I also think it's especially hard if we keep, and like we, I mean,
collectively, if we keep kind of like, uh, um, like gravitating towards
funding more infra, um, and like, I don't want to get back into that,
that we talked about that last time, but, um, but it would be good to
see like the application level, um, implications of these things.
So like, do we see consumer apps launch and consistently use like Celestia
for DA or Eigen DA or something like that?
Or do we see, um, they launch and they exclusively use like Solana's whole
stack because it's just like the user experience is different and better.
Um, so I think that like naturally happens in the applications congregate
to where it's best for their users.
But yeah, I think it's hard to.
It's difficult to tell, in my opinion, um, until we see more app level
stuff getting funded, um, like who wins and what it looks like.
Are there any use cases that you're like, you guys are seeing so far
or that even come to mind that immediately make more sense with like,
like in these consumer use cases, DeFi, whatever it might be, um, on a
more modular stuff, I'm a little bit of a composability maxi.
Like I say a little bit cause on purpose, but, um, I personally am of the
opinion that I think if there's one like DeFi protocol or consumer app
that really pops off, I think you're going to see a lot of people really
want to share state and compose state with that app.
And so for me, it's like, it's a little bit more of like a theory
versus practice sort of thing.
I do think that like for the private chains, the enterprise chains, like I
can see that being a use case, like the enterprises are overdoing something
that's an avalanche and that's interesting, but I have a really hard
time seeing consumer and DeFi in the modular worlds right now.
I want to kind of throw out a question like Celestia to most people,
just a coin that people buy it is going up.
Like it's not the context is not really that clear for most retail
people as to how this matters or why it's interesting in the first place.
So how do normal people think of Celestia?
Like, where does it fit in the grand scheme of, you know, Bitcoin eats
Solana, there's a bunch of these chains.
People can do things on them.
Uh, what's even just like the higher level, like do people ever interact
with Celestia, be curious for one of you to weigh in just so we can set,
you know, there's a decent amount of people in this space here, um,
I mean, I think Jmo's modular money, um, meme is actually a very good one
because what he's kind of suggesting there is that if Celestia is sort of
a data layer for all of these rollups to kind of post their data to that Tia
can be this asset that sort of flows throughout that ecosystem so that
there doesn't have to be this fragmented liquidity and it's kind of like
the pin that holds that whole, the app chain world together, so to speak.
So I think that's a good way, like modular money, I think is actually
a really good mental model for it.
Yeah, I think, uh, I agree.
I mean, like you'd need to vertically integrate like a settlement layer or
a two way bridge before it's like a conversation around and for me around
like real modular money, like I think they're asking more like structural
changes, but my full extent is just like all my leap wallets and
Kepler staking Tia and like, just, uh, like I am impressed with, I think,
how fast it is and it is really cool going through multiple different
chains, um, versus like every time you use a wormhole bridge, kind of
like hoping in the back of your like head that this goes through.
Um, so I think like that has been a really useful experience, but
overall it was very early and like a lot of people who are just mercenary.
Yeah, cosmos air drum farming, I think is the main use case for a retail person today.
Um, why don't we shift a little bit into eigenlayer briefly?
Just like someone explain what it even is.
And then we can talk about some of the trade-offs there, but also one
of like for people, cause a lot of people just jumped in.
Um, if you have questions you want us to riff on just DM either me or
someone who's up here, um, and we'll see if we can get to it.
We have probably another half an hour or so where we'll, we want to
keep it tight, not go too long, but, um, I know sometimes it can be fun
just to loop in people from the audience as well, but yeah, eigenlayer
someone take that away, maybe not.
So the concept of eigenlayer is sort of like, it's very simple.
It's the idea that you can take the E that's already securing the
chain and sort of reuse that to secure other services so that if, you know,
if you're an Oracle service, for example, instead of building your own
network and having to bootstrap your own validator set, you can already use
this base of security that's existing.
So that's eigenlayer in a nutshell.
And then they have eigenDA, which is a DA layer.
And that's kind of like the first service that's built on top
of eigenlayer using its security.
Yeah, I think that's a great explanation.
Um, I feel like eigen arrived at an interesting time narrative wise,
because it was kind of after the like Solana summer, your Solana bros,
myself included, I think maybe smack may have written along Solana
piece as well, but uh, we should came at an interesting time.
We 100% shaded because, uh, it was after like, it was so clear that
people were too negative on Solana.
And I think like, I don't have the chart in front of me, but it was like
an interesting for each soul as well.
Um, and so I think, uh, I get those caps really took a while to fill for
Um, and I, because I was right after the judo airdrop and that was like,
you know, like minimum 10 K or so per wallet.
Uh, and so I feel like I again, and restaking have like really breathe
life into, um, like the Ethereum ecosystem and what's kind of going over there.
I also think it was interesting because right after the Bitcoin ETF
was approved, not that big, but the real time, um, when you looked
at what was leading, it was like Lido.
If I'm trying to think what else was really, really big, but especially Lido.
Um, and so I think I, again, given it's maybe out of pop out of like
popularity and favor with retail, um, because it's so expensive to
shake coin on versus Solana, uh, but does have massive network effects.
Um, especially with like state deed, um, and restaking is really, I
think, uh, going to be like an institutional narrative this next cycle.
Um, so I'm, I'm definitely just looking to see like, which institution,
which, which larger players are engaging with, uh, restaking and, uh,
I think to get, I mean, this gets into like this idea of, uh, like if
you do have more institutionally minded, like people coming into crypto,
they kind of grab it, like it's, it's, it's why I think, uh, like staking
East and, and I think the ultrasound money thing is dumb, but, um, but
it is like, why those types of people gravitate toward like, Oh, staking yield.
Oh, like I can wrap my head around the idea that there's a yield
that comes off of this asset.
Um, I think that Eigen layer is actually probably similar.
Like I think it's an easy, almost like skeuomorphic thing for the, that
type of person to like more easily understand.
I think like that along with some of the RWA stuff is particularly
suited to, uh, to, um, what I would expect is like a new group of people
coming here, um, not like right away, but over time as you have like the
Bitcoin ETF adoption, and there's just like more people talking about it
at, um, traditional finance places.
I'm curious to see actually what kind of stuff gets built on using
Eigen layer, to be honest, like the application.
Yeah, that, that, that, um, that'll be, I don't want to see what
goes, um, yeah, I may or may not be poking around trying to figure
out, uh, what could go wrong.
Yeah, I know Eigen protocol is a big one there.
The guy's from the guy from pen, right?
He's a one of like the smartest founders I've met in the space, but
I think he's trying to, I mean, cause I just get really scared.
Like I used to trade credit before this and I just get really
scared about like the quality of collateral and actually tracking
the, yeah, the cascade, like the cascade stuff is what I'm like,
okay, like what's, what's in here?
What's going to be in here?
Are people going to want that collateral?
Are they going to want to just like walk away?
I, um, I honestly think the most interesting thing about Eigen layer
is like the narrative piece of it.
To Jmo's point, um, I think like, if you think about each value
pop as an asset and you imagine that we're kind of at this point where
they decided to outsource execution and DA, if you believe that the
settlement is just going to be each thing, like economic security, then I
think you really want Eigen there as a narrative to like really work and
play out because otherwise it's not obvious to me what the long-term
value pop for Eigen is an asset is.
I know that sounds a little bit harsh to say, but I do think you have
So I think, I think you want to be really bullish Eigen there.
If you are cool with each just being a settlement layer, I think you really
like want that to play out.
Assuming, I mean, I would love to go there.
Assuming it does play out.
Well, what do you think is the use case or at least for consumer, um, for
that, like it's more fit for Ethereum versus, uh, other chains.
I mean, like, I think we've seen Ondo, uh, it's rise recently with reward
assets, um, but like something like maker, which I think has been the
main character for RWA this cycle.
Um, you know, go into the SVM.
So it's like, is it DeFi?
I'm like really trying to think, uh, what is better fit for the like core
properties of Ethereum versus these all chains.
And I'm just, I'm curious, I guess, why are you guys thinking about it?
Yeah, it's funny because, um, I've always thought that, uh, it made a lot of
sense for, um, yeah, the people who are prioritizing security and stuff
that doesn't change that often.
And it's like that to me was, Oh, this makes sense of like the place that a lot
of trad fire rails eventually move on to, but I'm starting to think like that
actually might not make sense.
And I'm like, I, I, I talked to, uh, a couple of people from like JP
Morgan's blockchain group recently, because I'm like, what is going on
Like, what are these guys?
What are these people think?
Uh, like, how are they looking at this stuff?
And like, what is there, what's like trying to gauge like what their
actual like sentiment, like how they're building stuff, what matters.
And I'm like, I came away being like, yeah, man, these guys are just like,
they're looking to build private permission to kind of like walled places
And so permission list stuff is, is not like anywhere near the roadmap.
Um, it's, I was kind of like, yeah.
So do you guys do anything?
Like outside of this like box that you're creating in their view, they're
kind of all like, no, like we have so much compliance stuff.
We're, we're just like using this stuff to reduce costs internally.
Like we kind of want to get rid of reporting people and like get rid of
like lots of back office stuff.
And I came away being like, okay, well, it doesn't sound very likely that these
places have any interest in, uh, moving to like any layer one, let alone like
Ethereum specifically anytime soon.
So that made me kind of, uh, yeah.
Be like, all right, they're not, they're, this is like very much no,
we're trying to do permission shit.
Especially cause I was like, I was like, all right, maybe like the idea is you're
just like, KYC matters more.
You do a lot of KYC, AML, you like tag wallets and you figure out like, Hey, these
are the, these are the people we can interact with.
Um, but now it was like, no, no, we don't want permission list stuff.
Like that doesn't work for us, but maybe it was just the one or two.
I could have been talking to uninformed people for all I know, but that, that
was just like the takeaway I had.
Cause there's some questions.
Um, one is around, hold up.
It's like, did someone just mute everybody?
Uh, so one question for Nat, which is along the lines of like, how is
Eigenlayer different than Cosmos ICS?
Um, I'm not sure as a semi-tactical person, I'm not sure if that's even, uh, how
valid of a question that is, but feel free to tee that up.
And then something else about points and OTC desks for points, which
we'll, we'll give to JMo after Nat.
Yeah, I think by ICS they're referring to interchange security.
And, um, I think that this, this is a very good question because what I was
actually about to say is the thing that's important to understand about the
whole idea of that model is like, it's not Ethereum specific Cosmos will
have its own shared security.
Jito, fake net and Solana is well positioned to set up some sort of shared
security if they think that's interesting down the line to do.
So not only is Eigen, they're going to have to compete like with other,
you know, shared security platforms within Ethereum potentially, but they're
going to have to compete outside of Ethereum.
So it's all high level, the same thing.
And JMo, do you have any opinions around points, I guess, becoming more
financialized, like, is it really that different than just dropping a token?
Someone, I forget what the company is.
Um, someone angeled in it.
I just forget what it's called.
Uh, but there's like a, essentially an OTC desk for points.
People are already loosely doing this for friend tech, right?
Like buying and selling points, just literally OTC.
Um, curious if you have any, any thoughts on that.
I mean, I think it is interesting in, uh, like theory.
Um, just like, and I think it's like very classic crypto, how we can kind of
merge legacy and like novel mechanisms.
Um, but I feel like you have to ask like, what's the true north?
Like, why do you actually need an OTC desk in crypto?
And you need an OTC desk in crypto because there's like, at least there's a host
of different reasons, but it's like really difficult to execute large trades.
Um, you also need like compliance, right?
Like, and, uh, like there's, I think there's like a host of different, um,
like structural issues for why someone can't just go and buy 5 million of a
hundred points unless someone is, I mean, obviously I think we all saw the
Jupiter airdrop me I was been doing an amazing job, uh, like riding consistently
in and out of the hospital, but like really updating people on like power
law dynamics and how points are were separated for Jup.
Um, and I think like, unless the points are just insane, the power law
absolutely wild, uh, for like someone who's just going crazy on tensor, I don't
imagine we'll need an OTC desk for points.
Um, that's just my two cents.
Uh, I, I just think that people will need to stop mid-curving points.
I think that's like my overall, like that's where I end up more often than not.
Um, and I think it's similar to how people like mid-curve airdrops and mid-curve
like crypto in general, um, where it's, it's, they blame the technology for the
lack of creativity around like how it's used.
And so I think, uh, once we have more clarity there and get out of version
zero point one for points, um, it'll be much more clear how we use them
Those are the only two questions so far, though I'll plug one more time.
Um, if people have questions or things that you want any of us to touch on,
just hit me up, shoot me at the end and I will tee it up.
Um, maybe, oh, Jamo, do you want to jump in?
I guess I'm just curious, um, as like, uh, you know, the OG points player
and, uh, hopefully a nice crossover to our NFT and digital art piece, but
I'm curious, like how we guys are thinking about NFTs this cycle.
Um, and like how we're thinking about the role of like blur in that, um,
wrote like loyalty rewards in that.
Like, I think points are a mechanism that we'll start to see a lot of
people use like artists and like I've been pitched more than a few companies
that are trying to just simplify the process of everyone from a protocol
to an entity, being able to spin up their own loyalty and rewards programs.
Um, and so like, yeah, with NFTs, hopefully coming back and being an asset
class of it's own, um, I'm curious.
So I guess Ben, I'd love to start with you, uh, our moderator, but I'm curious
how you're viewing like this next step for NFTs here, because I don't think
it's going to be what it was in the past, right?
Where a lot of NFTs were just admitting essentially like a claim of points on the token.
Yeah, that's a good question, man.
Uh, kudos to you on the segue there though.
I, I, uh, much appreciate that.
Um, I think when I think about NFTs, I think that the main like answer is
dispersion where in 2021, you have a really narrow scope of what's going on.
People are buying a very select few NFTs effectively.
Everything that you minted goes up.
People work off that assumption and buy on secondaries because it goes up further.
Sometimes you get airdrops and things like keeping people around and keeping
it sticky and then it all blew up effectively.
Um, I think this time around, there's so much going on across Ethan,
I'm just like literally everywhere at the white Howard NFTs, um, that it's
very hard to keep a lot of concentrated attention on any one thing.
Um, unless it's already semi established.
So something like pudgies fits into that world.
Obviously it has a good story and Lucas created a turnaround
and they've accomplished a lot, but it's also like it already had a lot of mindshare.
So he paid whatever he paid two mil for it.
Like essentially the way I look at that is he bought the mindshare, right?
Everyone knew what a pudgy was.
Um, and that as a starting place is huge because you can't just like drop a
random adjective animal project today and expect people to care.
Um, and so, yeah, I don't know exactly how NFTs like bridge into the points
conversation, I guess, like stuff being staked and there being some sort of
internal rewards system around specific projects, uh, like is the status quo.
I guess, you know, with word apes, you know, the token, um, with
newts, you briefly had points.
Like, I guess, I'm not even sure MadLads are stakeable.
We would have to go through the list.
Um, but those feel more narrow in scope.
It's like, again, back to the early points conversation we were having.
I don't know how exciting that is.
It's more just like, I'm interested in buying a MadLad because it's a MadLad,
not because I can stake the MadLad.
You know, that's just like a random feature thing that I'll also do
if I happen to own a MadLad, you know?
So I think it's more about, can you pull people's attention?
So something like pudgies, if they dropped a token or had kind of a stinking
experience, that would probably matter.
But it's not because the mechanism matters.
It's because the attention matters.
Um, and that's kind of the, the TLDR for me.
I love, yeah, I think the, the attention component like cannot be understated.
Um, and starting with that, uh, like the head start of having mine share,
um, this central material advantage.
So yeah, definitely very much so aligned.
I don't spend time really out.
I mean, definitely not as much as has been on like NFT stuff.
Uh, but I don't know, like the, the next iteration of NFTs that are
interesting to me at least are like once you have like the NFT as a
container that owns lots of other assets and can do other things.
And like that to me is more interesting than the next version of, um,
I don't know, on chain art, um, because yeah, like the ownership,
like the NFT as a container to be able to do other things on chain seems
like at least like a much more novel thing than, uh, yeah, another
like 10,000 or 5,000 or 1,000 or whatever, um, PFP collection.
But again, I don't spend a lot of time on the NFT side.
And yeah, like all the artists that you talk about, I'm always
like, Oh, this shit looks cool, but I have, yeah, I don't know who
those people are and I don't, yeah, it looks cool.
But like on the PFP side and like what you can actually do with
some of these NFTs is like you utility, um, containers.
That's like that next step is what, uh, would get me more excited
at least or spending more time probably.
Check down on, make sense.
I mean, I definitely agree that the narrative has to evolve.
Um, so it's going to be like, what's the next, uh, like flashy
Um, I think for a long time we have been leading to like the NFT as a wallet.
I forget which ERC standard that is, but, um, like I think we were starting
to see more use cases there.
Still, I haven't seen anything that went like very viral yet.
Um, but I think it has to be a mixture of like utility and like capital alignment,
So it just, it can't just be, um, like I think like Gen R for initial versions
of that was very, very compelling and interesting.
Um, because it was like the obviously like right, like our blocks
and different things like that, maybe squiggles, maybe squiggles I'll include.
But, uh, we're like very much so novel ways to, um, just like design
and show creativity on chain.
Um, and there wasn't like a real established marketplace around it yet.
And so like it led with innovation that was for innovation's sake.
And then there was also like a massive capital benefit if you were early.
And so I think it, it will probably follow a similar pattern for NFTs that
are like, um, you know, more dynamic that you can do more than you can
stake with, that you can use in multiple different ways.
Uh, I also have like a thesis low key that eventually we'll see, like,
we're running, we're really going to round trip and we're going to start
to see a metaverse talk, pick back up.
I know a few people were like buying.
I'm deleting my account when we hear that.
Let me, let me, let me get, let me give it a smack.
Just sits there with Glee looking at the Gartner hype cycle chart for
metaverse down in the bottom right corner.
No, I think it's so dead, man.
No, I think, um, like on the topic of more dynamic NFTs, I think it will be
accelerated by the desire and necessity for like proof of personhood and AI
content and they're actually being like an in like complete distrust.
Like I have a friend whose sister, um, like her identity was stolen, but
then also they, they found some like videos from her Instagram and they
were able to like put this into a model and like do calls with her voice.
And the only way the police was able to like track it all down was by, um,
the mom, like asking questions that the, like the person couldn't answer.
And like, again, we're in like the first or second inning for a lot of this.
And so I think we'll see like, as proof of personhood becomes more of a necessity
and people are doing like the same amount, if not more things online with
these dynamic relationships, like enabled by the blockchain stuff, I think we're
going to start to see some NFTs, right?
Like that visual identity or like, you know, who you are represented in these
virtual spaces, I think will be much more logical because it's like, oh,
why I know for a fact that is you, like there is proof of personhood in some
form. Um, and so it's like, yeah, people can justify spending more money
right on the crypto punk or whatever it might be.
Um, so yeah, I think, I think there's going to be an accelerate to more
dynamic NFTs, but it's not going to be what a lot of people expect.
Yeah, I think one, one thing I would finally add is I'm interested in just
like net new crazy shit that happens over this cycle.
Like I want to see like a hundred thousand collection that does something
in a game or I don't know, just something that's actually unique, right?
We've, we've sort of gone through the same set of stuff design-wise
over the last like three years.
Um, I mean, arguably if you're taking punks as a queue for like much
longer with, with 10 K type stuff.
Um, and yeah, I mean, I think it's a max essay, just like NFTs as being
containers for data, um, and all file types, right?
Like you can, you can really extend this out beyond just the, the
Um, and so most likely, as people say, who've been around for more
than one cycle, it's always something that's like weird and out there
and different that everyone's fading and thinks won't be a thing that you
only start paying attention to when you already missed it.
I'm not bitter as you can tell, um, is like what's going to run, right?
And so I feel like that's the, that's the thing to watch out for it.
When you're, when you're sitting there at your screen at home being
like, well, these things are fucking stupid.
Uh, you should probably just buy three of them and call it a day.
This was the JMO was showing the ordinals like a couple of weeks.
JMO front ran the whole ordinals move for anyone who's listening in our
group chat, we all faded them.
Uh, I think he faded himself too, for what it's worth.
I did fit myself a little bit as well, but it was, uh, it was hilarious.
Cause like Ben was literally receiving messages after our spaces.
JMO really enjoyed what he had to say, but like that ordinals comment was crazy.
I think you shared like one thesis of like, if you see something on the timeline
two or three times and it's like a visceral reaction, like actually like buy
a little bit or like take the time right there to like dig in.
Um, because it's just worth like developing a point of view.
So I completely agree with you there.
I think, I think the coolest, all right.
So this is that, this is the NFT I want.
Um, I want NFT that can hold assets for me.
And then I can sign transaction.
I can like sign a transaction at the start, um, in my wallet for it to carry
out like a certain like group of transactions on my behalf.
So that's the NFT I'm looking for like container.
I give it some ether, I give it some Solana or whatever, wherever it is.
Um, and it can go do yield farming or it can go do points farming or it can
go borrow or lend and I, I have parameters set around and I sign con, I
sign transactions or I get alerted.
Um, every time, uh, maybe the health of my loan is getting close to like
a level that I don't want and it alerts me and I signed a transaction.
That's the NFT that I would get excited about personally.
I mean, I don't want to show the portfolio companies more, but use
capsule embedded wallets, um, some interesting stuff there that you were
talking about, uh, cause like that could be an NFT, but that also
should just be like an experience we have.
Like it should not be that nuanced, um, but I, yeah, that's, that's fire.
I guess all I'll add is like, it's still super malicious on like the
whole app NFT apps thing.
I think that's probably the next wave.
Also still a little champion piece of course.
Um, and actually shout out to Mike, uh, he's at, I think at talk time
band in the, in the audience somewhere here.
Um, he, we chatted earlier today and he's working on this kind of like
very interesting format for a new music NFT.
So I would recommend you guys check that out.
So that's one of the more interesting approaches I'd first name.
It's like a, it's like an album as an app that you can do all sorts of things
and they're like, you know, generative, generative, uh, cover art.
Like it's, it's a whole sort of experience inside of an NFT as an application.
And I think this whole like NFT as an app thing is like what I'm
particularly excited about.
So yeah, I'm checking it out.
And it's a PWA for our mobile folks out there.
We only have healthy shows up here.
Um, there's a very unironically, there's a very high standard of
investment on the board here, like for the speakers.
So people are showing, you know, it's probably worth checking out.
We have a question, uh, I think for, for everybody, actually, um, this
is along the lines of the NFT set of things.
Um, what about 10 K PFPs as a distribution mechanism, I guess, to
counteract the points meta.
So we've seen, I'll just try and interpret this a little bit.
We've seen some of these collections, uh, come out from protocols, right?
Like whether it's NFT purpose of Jico or tensor or whatever, um, as a way to build.
I mean, that was maybe as like the original example of, of a protocol,
um, spinning off a, like a culture slice.
Um, what do people think of that?
Is that like an interesting strategy?
What do you think they're trying to accomplish there?
I'm so sorry to repeat the last part.
Um, yeah, it's basically like, come on buddy, the telegram chat in the background.
Um, it's basically moving the NFT conversation and asking like, how is
it different when, uh, these protocols that would otherwise be doing points start
to explore doing like NFTs as a community building mechanism, as a rewards
strategy, like, is it interesting to you to have this sort of 10 K collection
appended to a project or a business?
Are they trying to accomplish something meaningful there in your mind?
Or is that just kind of a passing fad?
I mean, I think, uh, we saw before with DY DX and the hedges.
Um, and I think we're seeing it currently with sujiko sujiko, um, and sujiko perps.
Um, and so I think, uh, it's yet to be seen, at least in my opinion, how well
I feel like you don't want to underestimate how much it goes into
managing community, especially like with the PFP project.
And I think it's a lot to like bite off and shoe and focus on it for a team.
Um, because there is like, we're, I think it kind of goes back to something
we've talked about in the past around tribalism, but it like is really, really
difficult to start rolling out things for your core users.
Now, also people who have purchased NFTs at really high prices.
Um, and now like, as everything that you do is, is like affects price, right?
The NFT essentially becomes its own poly market for like, whenever, like I
remember when that ledger, uh, like hack went down or something, I think it was
But I wish there was like a way to trade that because it was like so clearly a
negative announcement and, uh, I think NFTs and PFP NFT projects do that.
They give you that, um, liquidity.
And so I think it's yet to be seen at least like, uh, at least in my
opinion for a team to do it really well.
I think it can be fascinating, especially for distribution and like
rewarding your OG, like holders.
I just think it's a lot to bite off and try to manage.
That's why I think, you know, the, they say the, like the, uh, worst part about
a meme coin is when it has a real team.
Like they're like, the bank is like no longer the meme coin of Solana.
It's like the mascot or whatever, because it has a real team.
So I think, uh, similar dynamics for NFTs.
Yeah, I partially agree with that.
I, um, I also, this is like totally like a nice bit bawling here, but I also
increasingly think that it can be an NFT collection can be an interesting
middle ground between like doing nothing, but also launching a whole token.
Um, it's because it's, it's less likely to have this sort of like
pump and dump VC dynamics that the token is.
So you can sort of like, it's a cleaner way, I think sometimes to reward your
community and like make sure that the smaller person gets rewarded and avoid
some of the more like predatory dynamics that happened with the token.
I think most VCs would not like founders to think about it that way.
But, um, I'm starting to hear more founders think about it that way after
watching MadLads and Tensor and what they've done, and I don't think
it's a crazy idea to like explore that further.
But, uh, but I guess don't you think like, I mean, this is maybe like a
problem in crypto generally is, which we talked about a little bit earlier
is like the lack of creativity.
Don't you see it as kind of like, Oh, founders now see it worked for MadLabs.
And so they're like, Oh, this will definitely work for me.
Like I should follow this playbook.
And then you get to it and you kind of like it.
Yeah, I do think though, that like the, I think we'll take, I guess what I
should put it like this, I think what's interesting is like this experiment
of having an actual full product and then the PFP collection, just being
a loyalty program for the product.
I think that's like an interesting experiment.
I think to Jamo's point, like we haven't really seen it executed
a lot much because it's kind of a newer thing, but I'm, it's, I think
it's interesting and like, I'm, I'm, I'm playing around with Protestant
and, and teams are experiencing the fact that I think it's interesting.
Yeah, I completely agree.
I think it's like too many people try to blame the like, Oh, you did 10K PFPs.
Are you like, launch a token?
Like 10K PFPs are a bad format, bad standard, but it's like,
it didn't work for your product.
Um, and like that, like I didn't play to earn games smack favorite topic.
It's like a great example where it's like, it's not that the tokenomics like, or
tokens for a game, just like, don't make sense.
It's that you didn't have enough costs or six.
It's like, stop trying to like blame the format.
Uh, that's how I think about it.
Um, I just, I'm curious, I'm sorry, you can go.
I was going to say, we just really have like a lack of creativity
across so much of crypto, right?
I know we've like internally, just like in our group chat joked about these,
you know, perps DEXs or whatever.
I think it was Bastion on Aurora at the end of the 2021 cycle.
We're raising for like, whatever a fork of a fork of a fork and we're sticking
the three forks together and it's like a hundred million dollars and you're
like, well, this isn't bullshit.
Um, but it's also just indicative of how so much of crypto tends to function,
right, which is like, how can I make a quick buck?
Um, and so usually when your thing fails, it's cause you copied something
else and like, weren't actually an original thinker, which to me is
incredibly bullish because if you can be an original thinker, like
people will come to play, right?
There's definitely a lot of interesting people and people who are
like very open to experimentation in crypto.
I look at some of these collections around specific protocols and my main takeaway
is just like culture is valuable to everything.
Like crypto is a social technology at some level.
And so you get to codify some sort of social layer around your whatever per
DEX, um, and that matters, right?
Like it gives people a way to signal that they care.
Um, maybe there's like even some status component to it.
If I have like more of whatever the NFT is than smack does, or, you know, JMO
has the best one or something like that will always be interesting to me.
It's mostly just like the way that people have approached that has
been boring as hell to me, um, mostly because we've just seen the same
thing again and again for so many years.
Um, but yeah, I think it's going to be this interesting intersection where
you have infrastructure, DeFi type people who don't really think about
things through the culture lens, and then culture people who aren't really
going to be building these products in the first place.
And I think there's just some lessons that, you know, both can learn from each
other, uh, and we're seeing, so I don't want to be too critical, right?
Like it's interesting to me to see these experiments.
I just think there's like so much more you could do in a digital
first way, um, with this stuff, but there's just very few people who
exist at the intersection of that Venn diagram.
Um, so hopefully we'll see more cool stuff.
Love that take so much Ben, I, to play devil's advocate, I think it's
like two fold here to people who exist, but also it's incredibly difficult.
Like as the VC, I always feel like, um, like almost like I am not in a position
that formerly give advice to some of these founders and builders,
cause what they're doing is so, so hard and I'm like, well, it could
be even more creative, but, but it's like, that's so valid, but it's also
I think it's fair to say like, let's call people to a higher standard to be
creative, but I've also been in those like strategy sessions where it's
like, Oh man, like our PFP art sucks.
Like, do we redo it or what the hell is going to happen here?
There's a lot of things that make it very difficult.
Uh, but yeah, I mean, at some level it's just, it's, you know, an open, violent,
intense, open source free market and the people who do come and show up
and like really execute in an interesting way or can tell cool stories.
Um, we'll just do that much better.
Maybe we'll frame it that way.
Um, like people will be okay if they do something that's basic.
There's nothing wrong with running a points program, for example.
Um, but the people who do something super interesting, uh, or different or
whatever, like, I don't know, Nifty Island is a good example.
Um, seeing, seeing fungible in the audience where you're like, okay, they're
doing something cool with their kind of points scheme it's defined in scope.
Like there's, it's going to turn into a token and people kind of know how
this thing is going to go down.
That is much more honest than many of the other things that are going
on in that points conversation where it's like vague, come play with our points.
And we'll see what happens.
Um, so they'll probably do better.
And I think, yeah, whether it's NFTs or points or really any kind of design.
So much of it is just, yeah, can you do something unique?
And I get that it's hard, but it's hard to win too.
I've spoken like a true Canadian.
Uh, I guess quick question for the panel.
Just quick one, they can go around on the topic of creativity.
What team would you say right now in the space, we had to pick one you think
is like crushing the creative, the creative side of things.
Didn't even have to think about it.
I just, they actually put out a post the other day on their Zora
engineering page of like how many products and crypto they're powering
and have shipped over the last like nine months.
And I recommend everyone go check it out.
Cause I think you would be actually surprised even if you're paying
attention to that space, just how much cool shit they've, they've shipped.
Um, and I think in, in the creator monetization tool space specifically,
I think they're very much pushing the boundary.
So huge shout out to Zora.
Um, I thought this actually, it's funny.
I actually thought the Sijunko warrior stuff was pretty cool.
Um, which was kind of surprising maybe for me, but, um, yeah, uh, like not
the, I mean, NFTs aside, um, I dunno, it was just like at least a unique
wave, um, what, like it was, it's very different than what other, you
know, the a hundred other examples of that look like, um, so that, I
mean, that was at least interesting to me.
Um, there's some, there's, you won't believe this JMO, but, uh, I do think
there are some people building, like, uh, I don't know how, uh, uh, how
large the user base will be for them.
But I think there's some teams building, like fun or interesting,
smaller, um, like mini game stuff.
So, uh, you're not going to get me to say that crypto games are the future,
but, um, we're, we're working on you bad day.
No, you're like Stockholm syndrome made me I was going to say, I have to
jump in and say like probably parallel, honestly, more for the colony
side of things than the cards, the card game.
Um, I think they're going to drop a white paper at some point over the
next month and that to me is like a zero to one thing, right?
Where someone is just taking a new, this whole AI agent concept, like
that's still pretty fresh.
And then also thinking about blockchains in a mature, serious way and
thinking like, cool, let's figure out how to actually pioneer AI gaming in a way.
And I just think, yeah, there are a team to follow that a lot of
people will take cues from.
There's a lot of cool teams as much as I was shitting on, like, it's
difficult to be creative and stuff.
And some people are flops.
There are a lot of people who are building cool stuff.
Um, and I think, yeah, so there's, there's a few experiments
on the gaming side right now.
There was actually, I don't know if I don't have the, um, message that I
sent like, uh, in our group chat, yes.
Like two or three days ago that I thought was cool in terms of like
optimizing, um, uh, like on chain games of like the actions.
Um, so like building the game so that you can tell, use your behavior ahead
of time, um, so that you can kind of like optimize when you actually
have to do stuff on chain.
Um, I don't remember the name of, of what that was, but I thought that was cool.
Yeah, I think that's very interesting too.
I think, uh, I mean, to your point also smack, I think that the casual
games, that's like such a consistent narrative I hear about that
people are more excited about.
Um, I just, I'm trying to think of like light casual games that have gone viral
in crypto that haven't been straight Ponzi's like step in, um, and stuff like that.
So I'm trying to think of like how you thread that balance of where
people are really, really engaged.
Um, but it doesn't require just a horrible user experience.
I think parallel might be something like that, but I agree.
I'm really excited by it.
I think my answer, uh, is I think it's twofold because while I love folks
like Zora and things, people like teams that are just so creative shipping
so much their GitHub commits looking the same, I think, uh, another like massive
con is if the community can't keep up.
And if the messaging is too, uh, disparate or too like all over the place for
people to like draw a clear through line of what you just shipped, where
you're shipping now, what you're going to ship later, um, and how that all
creates like a better experience for users.
Um, and so I think like team that has done that really well recently,
Uh, I think they're like the execution there, the ability to, you know, beat
off incumbents, actually when market share, um, do the points thing, do
the like marketplace thing.
Um, and then now like expand to other, uh, ways to, um, trade NFTs I think is just
like, I think it's been really well communicated and I just like, really
liked the product, but I think another one that's super fascinating is just
helium, um, because helium is just, I think so like that is such a radical
idea that I've been working on it since 2013.
Um, and now like helium mobile is growing at like an insane pace and
it's just an undeniable use of like use case for crypto and consumer.
Um, so yeah, my mind aren't as spicy as cool as some of these other ones
like parallel, like AI agents, but
those point that like tensor, shout out the tensor because it's 2024.
I think there's still the only NFT marketplace that has trading blue
charts for the assets on the platform, which is like kind of insane,
Um, by the way, promote primo, primodium was the, uh, game that I was talking
about just, I thought it was cool.
Yeah, I can put one guys, yeah, we should pin some stuff next time.
I always forget to pin these things, um, wait, are you going to, are you
going to get the helium or are you going to be a, are you going to convert?
When are, when are you going to be a helium user?
On my, on my Sega, I'm engaged, but, uh, no, I, I don't have the IoT hotspot yet.
Um, are you, or do you have a 10 up?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Well, I was going to try to run one.
I told you I was going to try to run one this weekend and I didn't get a chance
Um, so no, I don't run anything.
Like, that's the next step for us.
Well, I think we should wrap it up.
I want to keep it a little bit tight.
So we don't go too, too long.
Um, big shout out to everyone who tuned in.
And we covered some serious ground here.
Um, we're going to do, we're going to keep doing this once a month.
We're probably going to shill at some point.
Like we're going to try and be on a panel at consensus in Austin.
Um, does one of you actually want to dig up that link so we can appropriately
show this, um, because we have fun chatting with each other.
And it's just funny because you look through the people who applied and it's
like, you know, a lot of nice, smart people.
And then us just this like random crew of, I guess, literal misfits.
And the fun thing is I think we could actually win the community section
if we just actually got people to vote for us.
Um, so that's the humble request, but if you're, yeah, beyond that, if
you're not already following Jamo and not in smack, these are some of the
smartest folks I know in the space.
So do that, read their stuff.
Um, just like we were saying kind of at the right at the beginning of the space,
it's hard to keep track of all the stuff that goes on in crypto and you
know, the one cheat code that exists is just finding good people and trying
to capture some of their information flow.
And it's just, yeah, like so much of the game plan with spaces like this
is to offer that in a more public way.
So people can kind of share on some of these ideas.
Um, but yeah, even just passively following these people is, is a good game plan.
Um, do we have, is one of you sort of hunting this link?
I couldn't, uh, I can't find it in my email, but here, I'll, here, I'll drop it.
We're going to pin this thing.
It's going to be like one of you.
It's a, it's a pretty cool image.
While we wait for Jamie or somebody to pin it so we can like properly
ask you to do something, the, the lore here is we saw this thing.
All of us were like, Oh, maybe for our own audiences, we should
potentially try and speak on a panel.
Like, what should we talk about?
And that's like, Oh, like something to do with Gen Z and consumer.
And effectively we just like, you know, chat UBT prompted us a submission and
submitted it and then smack has a mid journey image that we attach to it.
And so if we actually end up speaking at this thing, it would be hilarious.
Um, cause I do think we could have a fun time.
Um, it's not like we can't keep up, but it's, it's more just like the
very incidental nature of these things.
Hey, man, if, if dog with echoes to $4, we're definitely having a fun time.
I didn't even see that it was pinned.
I'll, I'll make the final shrill here and then we can, we can wrap.
Um, so consensus has this tweet out.
You'll see it at the top of the page.
At the top of the space, if you're listening, you can check that.
Um, essentially there's just like a community section for this conference.
Uh, the game plan is basically that the four of us would be up there
on a panel at the conference, um, jamming about these sorts of topics
like venture and crypto markets.
Uh, but we need you to vote for us to get into that thing.
So there's no like downside.
I don't, I don't actually know if you need to even set up with an email
Uh, but we would appreciate you looking for us in that place and you'll see
our names, um, you know, John Moore, uh, I guess smack is the only and on.
So all of us just like, as we're named up here, uh, you'll see us
in not that application there, but yeah, I think let's wrap it up there.
And, um, thanks so much for listening to everybody.
And thanks to you guys for coming on.
Hope everyone has a good night.