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Moments of the Unknown - 139
Recorded: Aug. 24, 2025 Duration: 1:11:28Space Recording
Full Transcription
We're live.
We're walking through the park.
We just finished a haircut.
I thought I was going to be doing this podcast on the chair with the buzzing, but thank God we're not.
We're here with our good friend Fungie, the master of Schiller, decided for us to jam
out.
Let's have him up here.
Fungie, I sent you an invite. if you could pop up on her my man yo jim can you hear me okay i can hear you loud and clear bro incredible how's how's the fresh
cut feeling oh it's funny right like Every time I go get a haircut,
I always feel like I'm a piece of shit.
And then when I leave, I feel like I'm
a fucking boss.
I really do think there's
a healing energy to
getting a haircut. You release
some energy that you've been picking
It feels good when you can see yourself
fresh.
What are your thoughts?
I totally agree.
Yeah.
I used to dislike it cause I'm,
I'm not like a small talk guy,
typically.
but I finally just like found a sick barber.
That's hella chill that I can easily chat with every time uh and I was like you know
what instead of just poking in with some like random person every time I'm gonna go back
only get a cut when he's available and it's been like such a better experience um uh yeah just I
don't know so yeah but I usually leave feeling, feeling better for sure.
It's so funny you say that, man. Like I've always felt that way. Like I always hated
getting a haircut and then I've been to so many places, you know, especially even traveling when
I was doing this project. And luckily I'd find some really good ones. I'd find some terrible
ones, but that shit grows back. And I found this guy in new york who just does it so good and
i just go to him and it's like you to find a good barber is like finding a good therapist who you
trust totally yeah i know i know buna is is pretty similar um yeah he's got a guy that i don't know
how long he's been going to see him I think it's years at this point um
and he goes like every two weeks for a little a little touch up something like that fresh cut
Fridays um like it's the only like Buna like rarely requests or like lets us know like he's
gonna be away and or miss need to miss a meeting.
And I remember one day I'm being like, yeah, like I got my hair cut,
so I'm going to have to catch up with you guys later.
I was like, oh, okay.
Like, yeah, sure enough.
Like, no problem.
And then realized like, oh, no, this is like,
this is a grounding force and ritual in his life.
And he gets a great deal out of this experience and i'm very happy for him for that so he's not alone in that feeling i really feel like
it calms and also just does something spiritually like it resets you and again i think you know
there's some native american lore about hair where it holds
all the energy you've been carrying all the emotion so when you cut it you're set you're
severing those ties to those experiences and it's you know that's i have that belief and
feels like that when i get it but i didn't i didn't think we should be talking about haircuts
today fungi but i do want to turn the conversation back on to you as our special guest.
Do you mind introducing yourself a bit?
I definitely would love to learn more about what you've been doing with
Shiller and how you built that.
Yeah, for sure.
So Fungible here,
So fungible here, builder, collector, terrible trader, enjoyer of all things on chain and
internet.
And I kind of stumbled into crypto and NFTs.
Like, you know, I'd been aware of crypto for for years and years but i didn't really
have a lot of money a ton of student loan debts and stuff um so only had a little bit of exposure
and then uh found punks in 2020 through just a very smart very kind uh old friend of mine who was building a protocol for NFTs.
And he gave me a wicked deal on a couple of punks.
I think I was the one like normie friend who had reached out to him after years of him,
you know, posting on Instagram and Facebook like buy ETH, buy, look into NFTs and stuff.
And yeah, and then those became valuable.
And I was like, fuck, I need to learn more about this.
And yeah, kind of just made this Twitter account
in February or something of 2021 with no real intention other than like learning more about
what was happening and who else was excited about stuff here. Um, and then it was just very
head over heels for the energy and possibilities of this space and, and the people like just wicked smart people that are super creative
super passionate um remember being like a very intimidating experience in in a way uh but just
mostly exciting um and then yeah uh i don't want to go and bore you guys with too much detail but
i think i went to an art exhibition,
an Accelerate Art exhibition in Cryptovoxels.
And it was like, you know,
I've been to a bunch of galleries, museums,
but it was probably the coolest art show I had been to.
It was like Claire Silver and Ben Roy
interviewing artists on a clubhouse chat
while Claire translated for punk 4156 um who was the collector
and patron of a bunch of these pieces and had like a custom built like 4156 museum and crypto
voxels and it's just like the first time know, after going to dozens of galleries and museums, like I would never see the artists there, like literally ever.
I would never see the collectors there.
And then I would never see them talking to each other.
And I would never know if they had a direct connection of any kind.
Like it all seems so obscure and otherworldly. Like it was behind some veil that,
you know, the public wasn't supposed to see through. And yeah, I remember after that,
just being like, I got to find a way to, you know, be here, like in some capacity. And I,
yeah, just sort of figured out how to do my job and my day job in a couple hours a day and
tweeted stream of consciousness thoughts and things that I was excited about in crypto and
NFTs and just read and listened to people for eight hours a day.
And after a few months, randomly saw a guy I think I've been following tweeted like, hey, anyone want to start, you know, a marketing company in Web3?
Like, it seems like there's a need for some like high integrity marketing and advisory here.
After we all just saw how much not greatness there was.
which not greatness there was.
And within like 24 hours, I think, yeah,
I came up with the name Shiller because I thought it was funny
and just honest, you know.
And we had a website and logo and a bit of a mission statement.
And, yeah, I just kind of got to work.
And I think our first client was Poep.
And then we worked, you know, since then, that was just over four years ago, we've worked with, I think, 50 plus companies and teams.
Right now, like, you know, I think just as we hit four years, we started working with Artblocks, which is like a team that I looked up to with tremendous admiration as soon as I got into the space.
And working with a bunch of awesome DAOs like Tribute and Flamingo and stuff.
So, yeah.
And then we spun up a little studio earlier this year, which we've been working on stuff,
kind of different stuff through.
So it's been wild, man.
Like it's been a really, really fun time.
A lot of ups and downs,
but a steady up into the right direction,
which I'm very grateful for.
And also just wild to be working with a bunch of people that like for years I
had not met in person.
I honestly still don't know my co-founders names.
I think there's like one person's name that I remember.
that I remember. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's a hell of a space. Um, it's really interesting and yeah,
But yeah, it's, it's a hell of a space.
I feel, feel super grateful to get to be here. I'm so grateful to hear your story and to have
you here today, man. I'm trying to remember where we met. Was it the punks discord or,
or just on Twitter? Like, I think, you know, and I have so much to say about what
you said.
Getting a punk
back then and having the one
you have with the beanie is like
that's a lucky ass
thing to stumble
on, man. Did you know what you were
getting at the time?
There's a few other things
I want to say
trying to catch up on here like the accelerate art um uh i think that was the one
where the mortal was like it displayed too of the x copy where it was like the first time we really
got to experience mortal through 4156 and the whole accelerate art and you know what you're so right about the crypto voxel thing
because you did feel connected to your collectors you did feel in the community and you know we
never really got to see a time in art history where it's kind of everything's recorded like
everything on the blockchain is recorded everyone's conversations are recorded and
you know there's youtubes of the videos of the, of the exhibitions.
It's like, everything's kind of super archived,
but I don't think has ever existed before this.
And I want to like focus a little bit on your thoughts there because we are
like, everything we're doing is recorded.
And what are your thoughts about that?
I think, yeah, I think it's really, it's really interesting.
Like I feel like
it's hard to comprehend. It's one of those things that's so big that it's like very hard to
fully appreciate or even wrap your head around in the moment. I think, um, you know, when we look
back to past scenes and movements and advancements in tech and, you know, exciting, uh, little epochs
in the art and culture, uh, side of things. Like we're really just like lucky if we can find like
a couple of cool interviews, like some archival footage, um, that's usually way after the fact
where someone's like, you know, recapping like what it was like to be
alive and active and involved in that part of whatever it might have been and so much of it
is just like you know ghost provenance in a way like there is no record of the conversations there's no record there's like
maybe some records of some transactions on the art side but like um it's a lot of just uh
you just have like you just know that it happened because we're here and there's enough people that
uh that have have kind of like remarked and notated that period of history but
yeah i think it's i think it's cool i think it's kind of like building another layer of reality
that didn't really get to exist before and i think is all of the tools for you know searching and
combing through all of this data get better.
I think it'll get really interesting where you kind of will be able to go back in time
in some sense and see exactly what happened.
Like even on here, being able to use like Grok
to like comb through my shit posts or tweets
or to like look into someone else and be like,
oh, give me like a, I want to know more about this person, like share some of the top 10 most
kind of like influential tweets for them. Like the things that seemed really important were related
to their life development, art development. Like you can already kind of like do that and experience
a bit of a time capsule.
Um, and yeah, it's like you, you know, there's, there's a lot of conversations that have kind
of, uh, I think when Twitter like updated their spaces or they didn't have the ability to
record them or something like that.
Um, we probably lost a lot, but thankfully there's so much that is on chain and so
much that did get exported and uploaded um uh that yeah it's it's out there but i don't know i think
it's just gonna get more more and more interesting in that way you know i have a couple thoughts here
i would like to come with you through and i'm sorry if you hear like the crazy jazz music in the background.
I'm just sitting in the park and there's a jazz festival here.
It's amazing.
So, you know, you're right about what you say.
Like, we don't know the history unless you relived it.
And we're only shared like a few articles and recordings,
like a few minute recording of the artist's painting.
And it's like, how can we make decisions other than what we're told or what we're taught whereas here you know you get
to hear from the artist you like you said you get to use ai to create a summary of who this person
is and you know these are all tools like here we are talking right now creating the history as we
speak about this movement the people who are listening the people who are participating
um it's just like we have so much data being built like you could kind of like mirror our
whole reality like you're speaking about and it's just like this i just i'm still comprehending this
like what we're doing here and like the the art that's being made and the people and the
friendships being formed and yeah there's so much to say about all this it's interesting and like
i feel like our on-chain transactions too like remember one idea i had um was just like oh it'd
be cool if we could compile that info like every transaction and run it through some kind of LLM that could like spit
out, you know, they always like the saying, like, you are the protagonist in your own story,
or you're the main character in your own story. It'd be really interesting to like translate
on-chain data into a real story of some kind that referenced
the things that you were transacting who was also doing that you know that you could kind of like
infer connectivity and friendships or relationships in some way um and yeah it's really made me think
of that you know my like ether scan records it's like some kind of evolving novel,
um, which I think like, especially there's a lot of companies now that are pairing social
activity with on-chain activity, um, uh, just to see like who's the most active and who is kind of
like who's LARPing and who's actually, actually, you know, doing what they're talking about doing. And I think as time progresses, like,
those stories will become much more like fleshed out and accessible for us to pull on.
Because yeah, I think like, there's a lot of friendships that in some way, shape or form are kind of like
defined by shared excitement around transacting something, you know, as kind of lame or flat of a
word as that might be transacting. It's yeah, you know, we got excited about some collection of some kind, whether it was art or some pixelated dick butts
or whatever it might be.
We got excited about that,
and there's some record of us really showing our excitement
at the same period of time.
So yeah, it's interesting, man, for sure.
It kind of goes with the consensus of things,
like what is the the greater
whole attracted towards and how did the transactions accumulate into these communities
and you know for lack of a better word transaction you know who created this language and and is this
language going to evolve as the art and the and the people who contribute to it evolve because it started
with finance right it started with crypto but when art comes and culture comes how does the language
change because it's too it's too financialized and i think you know do we want it is that a good
thing or is that a bad thing i don't know yeah i i think like know, in the same way they people have always talked about, like, we need to get to a point or, you know, maybe this was like, a couple years ago, is like, you know, we need to get to a point where we're abstracting away the kind of cumbersome tech, or high friction tech that is needed to do things on chain. And now we've seen that like improve massively. I think
the same thing needs to and will happen with the language where like using the word NFT is like,
it's not really helping anyone, you know, like it's, it's kind of like, it's, it's kind of a lame,
you know, it's like a very like cold, um, non-descriptive acronym. It could mean anything.
Um, and it's like new for the sake of it. It was helpful at a point in time. Um, maybe still is,
who knows? But I think like over time, um, the need for, you know, excess language to layer on top of existing things that, you know, it's,
it's not like there's some things that are net new, uh, that we're doing here, but a lot of it
is just transacting its currency, its objects, its art, its collectibles, it's memberships, it's whatever, you know, it's access.
We don't really need to make that more cumbersome for people to pick up and run with. So I think we'll get there. But yeah, it's an interesting thing for sure. I don't know when that will kind
of evolve, but you're definitely right in that it's it's usually been from the greater and creative side that our language is shifted.
So hopefully, yeah, that happened with with NFT.
I don't I don't I don't want to like fixate on a term, but every time I use it now, I'm like,
I mean, I don't even it doesn't to me, me, it's just like, it's just the name that we, that's
stuck. And like, I really don't know how to, how would one even invent a whole new term that
describes what the fuck this is or what's happening here? Uh, maybe, maybe someone,
maybe a philosopher, SAS will come up with something better, but you know, the tech people
have come up with this term and, uh, we, it's term and it's just what we use.
But I want to ask you a couple other questions.
So, you know, you've gone from the normie to a punk to a shiller.
And I want to understand the landscape of how this all developed and becoming from someone who started and was new to someone who has now created a marketing team, a community you know that's well loved by so many people so many teams you said it yourself you're working with the best of
the best flamingos and blocks of art so how is that journey for you and you know i want to hear
more about that thanks man yeah um in terms of like how i think uh i mean we we never quit like um i think
like there's a lot of times where the market was you know really difficult there's periods of time
where i was like fuck like this is um yeah this is just it's it's a lot to stay this active and work this long without, uh, being like
a service based company. You know, um, it's, it's tricky. It's like, it's in the same way that like
punks are like a leverage bet on ETH, um, building a product or a company, especially a service
company, I think is like a levered bet on other people's
leverage bets on ETH where you're assuming that they're going to keep building great things and
they're going to need help and they're going to like have money to pay you. So it's definitely
not been like the easiest thing, especially because we're very careful with who we work with.
I think that's probably why we've been able to grow and stick around for so long.
There was a ton of incredible teams,
incredible people doing really interesting work and
building things that we were excited about.
But they just lacked that savviness and experience of
strategizing like how to best release something into the world,
how to best engage with the community and how to frame
things as accessibly as possible. release something into the world, how to best engage with the community and how to frame things
as excessively as possible, whether, yeah, on the marketing, branding and all of that front.
And I think it was from always deciding, like, we're going to work with those people and we're
never going to prioritize how much money we can make,
for better or for worse.
Would have been if we just kept working on,
like, I don't know, there's enough people that are deploying shady tactics to coerce people
into spending more money than they should,
than there needs to be. And,
uh, we never want it to be that it, our rubric for working with people is like,
a, would we support you if we weren't working with you? If yes, continue conversation. B,
do we feel very confident in our ability to provide value where you need it if yes continue and then like see do
we trust you like do we trust you to be honest with us and do we trust you to like let us get
deeply involved in things um because they're you know as as trustless as crypto might be um trust
still comes out on top.
Like reputation is everything in this space.
It's very easy to torch it.
And we just wanted to make sure we didn't do that.
So I think that was a difficult starting point
just from a basic financial side of things, like things that make the most
money is releasing large collections and like dropping tokens. And we didn't want to make that
our focus at all. And yeah, so we just kind of kept going. And I think like, there's a few
inflection points for Shiller. Um, you know,
one was just deciding to, it was part of like the POAP, um, uh, uh, work. We, the work we did with
POAP, we had the idea to do an NFT treasure hunt, um, and have POAPs hidden around New York City for NFT NYC 2021.
And we worked with the POAP team to like flesh us out and get some great partners in.
And there'd be like a QR code on, you know, the outside of an art gallery or a QR code outside of the conference or something like that.
And the more POAPs you collected from scanning these, the more raffles you got to win prizes from the
people we partnered with on it. Um, there was a bunch of cool stuff. I think one of the top
prizes was like a Chromie squiggle. Um, and then we were like, oh shit, like we didn't think about
putting our own QR code out there for our own pop. Like we should totally do that and like why don't we put it on the back of like a moving van um
with like led screens and uh will or lcd screens and we'll just put art on the sides um because
it just seems way cooler to like not cover it in our logo like our joking rule of shiller was like
we won't chill shiller. It feels lame.
So we, yeah, just put out, I put out a tweet being like,
hey, like, you want your art on a moving van during NFTYC?
Like, drop it below.
It has to be landscape formatted.
And we'll pick a hundred pieces and throw it up there.
And then we did.
And like, yeah, it went super well, worked with the Unfold team.
And we exhibited this slideshow of art
on the sides of this van for like four days
and got to see all of these artists like taking photos
and saw it all over the timeline and then like
from that a bunch of people hit us up and we're like hey we loved what you did with POAP and with
your like moving art gallery um we'd love to work with you and we're like did we just like
did we just market ourselves like uh without really realizing it um and we ended up getting
like a bunch of work because of that.
Uh, honestly, never the intention, like it just seemed like fun thing to do. Um, and then
we realized like, Oh, we can just like, you know, it'd be foolish of us not to do something to grow
our brand here, um, and level of awareness in the space. But we don't want to just like do boring marketing stuff.
I think we can just like support the things we feel passionate about in a very non-value
extractive way.
And, you know, there's a good chance that that might be good for us and whoever we do
chance that that might be good for us and whoever we do it with. So we started doing more things
it with.
like that, sponsoring, you know, artists run galleries or exhibitions, putting up more of
these like mobile galleries, and then started doing curated art releases where literally like
all of the money gained from any mints were just going to paying,
going to the artists who had created the art or for paying for production costs for making content
around those artists. Um, and yeah, I think that's like been our, our main kind of way of marketing.
It's just supporting the side of the space that gets us really excited to be
here. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's like, I don't know what to say beyond that. Um, we, I mean,
I have many questions, sir. Um, man, I love, I love hearing about you, Shil Shiller. I want to
understand, I I've tried to work with you a few times, but it just didn't seem like it was like,
I didn't even understand how to work together. But if, if you were to work with you a few times but it just didn't seem like it was like i didn't even understand how to work together but if if you were to work with you know it seems like
you do you work with individual artists or you're more so focused on the brands and activations and
instead of like individual art projects i just want to you know if there's anyone listening who
wants to work with chiller because i've always wanted to work with you guys uh how would that
how would that go down yeah for sure so i'd say most like we started out really wanting to work with artists um and then
just realized the like economics of that are tough um because we have to make money and we don't
necessarily feel great about taking some of the money that an artist would be getting. And we realized, like, you know, at least for a while,
the best way to do that will just be to do it kind of for free
in initiatives like this or, you know, for I think like two years straight,
we hosted one to two artist interviews every single week. Um, and, uh, just tried to do our best to like
uplift and celebrate the artists that we've really resonated with. Um, and, uh, yeah, we've,
we've done a couple of, um, there's been like a couple of exceptions to that rule. Usually where it's like something that is kind of just come together very spontaneously,
but naturally over a couple of years, like working with FDOT and DID on the city's release,
just being a bit of support for that. I think I, you know, I had first heard of FDOT's idea concept for that project like three years ago in Miami.
And it was like his first like he was just getting excited about the thought of one day maybe doing that with art blocks.
And working with like John Carborn, another artist who.
Yeah, we had been a couple of members of the team had been
really close with him and hung out with a bunch.
And there was like a very specific component of what they were doing that they wanted help
with.
I think that's also often been a reason why we haven't engaged is because I feel like so much of the, some of the most important parts of
an artist releasing something is that it's like truly their own and their concept.
And I'm usually opposed to over-marketing art. And yeah,'s it is a really fine balance there um where for some
things like the best way to sell them is to like try not to uh or to not try to too hard
um so it's well can i ask you a few questions on that note because that's a very important topic
yeah because discovery to be your art discovered especially with the algorithm it's
like how do you humbly share your work and it's for sale and it's you want eyes on it but also
you you're trying to connect with people through collecting and you know is it there's the humble
way and there's the hustle way and i'm guilty of the hustle way back in the day and i'm sure you
and i could go on about a few stories with when we did the twins together and how crazy that shit was.
But I want to really dive deep into this perfect balance of how to be discovered and doing it the right way.
Especially when there's so much noise and things being shared.
Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's a really good question.
Man, I mean, it's a really good question.
I'm probably going to struggle to give a really good answer, or at least a perfect answer for everyone.
But I'd say in whatever way you can make your digital forms of expression and communication, um, as true to yourself as possible. Um,
the better where, uh, you know, I feel like I learn more and feel more excited to
support someone when it feels deeply authentic to them.
Giving people, like the best reason to learn more about whatever it is you're doing,
besides the aesthetic, like captivating first impression of whatever
the the artistic thing you've created is because that's usually where you know our eyes go to first
is being able to see glimpses of who you are over time um so it's not necessarily at the point of you dropping X, Y, or Z project.
It's like, you know, our digital representations of ourselves are like thin slices of who we are.
And that's all anyone can ever pick up.
You know, you're never going to put out a tweet that informs someone exactly who you are at your core.
put out a tweet that informs someone exactly who you are at your core. But if you are present
and authentic, authentically present for long enough, over the course of all of the things
that you are saying and doing, someone will be able to understand the like composition of you so much better. Um, and I think that
that is a really big part of it where I think especially artists, um, they feel like it's
when they're, when they have things for sale, that's when they have to show up and talk that way. And it's all about that period.
And I think it's really, really not. It's kind of more of a longitudinal thing. That's one of the
the greatest things and also one of the more maybe difficult things about having this direct
artist to collector relationship or avenue that's always open is that you are about having this direct artist-to-collector relationship
or avenue that's always open
is that you are your own kind of PR team all the time.
But to think about it from a PR perspective
will probably fuck you up
because then you start spinning a narrative
rather than just sharing your story.
I would say also, one sec may i step in while you're yeah whatever you're doing yeah just grabbing some grabbing
some water yeah um you know i think you're absolutely right with what you say it's like
how do we consistently show up in the space with how we contribute growing in the space? And that could be as easy as just like uplifting
your friends or just sharing their content or just adding your thoughts, authentic thoughts
into the conversation. And it could be, you know, promoting someone you love or their work
or an idea. And it's like how how how that longitudinal line you're talking about
is the showing up not just for yourself and art is a very selfish and selfless thing and to balance
that of you know wanting to be seen but also there's so many other people here to see and
how do you balance that um i think you're completely on point when you're talking about your profile is what you share and how you come to this space, come correct, you know, or incorrect.
And, you know, you said it earlier, Grok could easily identify that shit.
And frankly, I should use that tool more, especially if you're looking into artists you want to support and collect.
And, you know, how often do you use that tool?
Which tool exactly?
Just like the summary tool.
It's like everything that's been said is archived and can be summarized in a way.
I'd say pretty often, but I'd say like a few times a week.
Like if there's someone who,
cause we're all like beholden to the algorithm in some way, shape or form. Um, and so I, I often
will have, you know, the thought like, Oh, I haven't seen this person for a while. Like I
haven't seen this artist or this friend, whatever. Um, I want to know what they've been up to and they sit post and retweet so much
of other people's stuff that like, it's going to take all day if I like try and come through
their, their profile or something. Um, so I use that like, uh, yeah, a few times a week for sure.
Um, I, I say, I would say that like mostly just observing though like mostly just like
everyone here noticing what I see on on the timeline or in group chats or
wherever else yeah I'd say that's that's probably a bit more than more common but
yeah can I ask you something from a pr perspective sure do you
think it's helpful or harmful that an artist reshares retweets like a lot like because the
way i look at it i want to just say from my perspective it's kind of like how you curate
your eye by sharing other people's stuff and the story
you're telling through other people's stuff in in that longitudinal or in this case vertical
line of how the art connects or the story you're telling through the art you're seeing
i mean that's the way i like to use the retweets like how does this piece inform the other you
always see people screenshotting the algorithm it's like oh these two things are literally communicating with each other like whether someone's talking about this
and then the same thing where the the inverse of it is right under it in the algorithm i kind of
like to do that with art and how the art talks to each other what are your thoughts about how
retweets or or does it hurt or does it help i think i think it helps like i think again it's
kind of like just in how you talk you know like if if you're doing it for the sake of uh
you know bettering your own position or something like that then like it's probably not going to
work out like i think intentions really matter like mean, it will be helpful to some people, but, um, I, I'm not, I guess the short answer is like,
I don't expect or want or need an artist profile to be all them. Um, I, it's like, this is Twitter,
you know, like, it's not, it's not LinkedIn, right? Like it's, I want to,
I want to know who you are. And that is often, you know, there, someone could write a big tweet
about who they are. And I might learn more about the shitposts. I might like learn more about them
by the shitposts they retweet or comment under or like the memes they
use or um the art that really resonates with them that isn't theirs that they share um so i've never
been one to you know there's a few artists that do really believe like their media tab should be
super clean shouldn't have like pepes or whatever bullshit in it
and their timeline or their profile should be super clean.
And I don't like, I'm not going to judge anyone for like using their own account however
they want.
But I don't agree that that's the best approach because it's all like, I've used the term before of like digital body language,
where you're, the way in which you're engaging
with things online, whether that's things you're creating
or communicating or other people's things
you're engaging with.
I think like all of that comprises those like slices
of who you are.
And if someone cares enough to like think about
you and your behavior in that way like um that's probably more in line with who an ideal collector
would be for instance um than someone who is like i need you to be GMing a new piece of your art every day.
I need you to be like, I need a sales bot.
I need this.
I need you to be commenting under every top collector's post, whatever.
You know, like, it's like that is like, that becomes a very financialized relationship.
It's like the expectation of value.
So I think you should use it however best suits you is really, yeah, what I would say.
I'd rather just like you be a normal person than trying to be, you know, you, the artist
and PR team of that artist, if that makes sense.
Trying to be the perfect version of yourself.
And I love this idea.
Sorry, there's so many people walking by right now.
I don't know what's going on here.
Matcha.
It looks like a matcha line.
So, you know, I love this idea that you just kind of invented this digital body language.
I've never heard that term. I love this idea. And you know, I love this idea that you just kind of invented this digital body language. I've never heard that term.
I love this idea. And you know what?
I'm so guilty of not posting GIFs as responses anymore because it says, oh, I want to keep
a clean feed.
But it's like, is that like killing my authenticity?
Because my knee jerk reaction is like, I want to, oh, I want to share this GIF.
What is that?
Stupid.
I don't know.
So now you have me questioning, am I being, am I holding back more than I should be?
I mean, yeah, I think that's a question only you can answer.
I think it's like in the moment, you know, it's like when you, like I go to write stuff
all the time and then I'm like, Ooh, I don't know about this.
Like, I don't know if the writing is good enough or I don't know if someone's going
to hate this or I don't know if someone's going to not realize that I'm completely joking. And, um, yeah, like you have those like moments of, of doubt and they usually for me, and I'm definitely not saying you're doing this, but the more of those I have, the more tweets that get sent to drafts that never see the light of day or, um, the more tweets I put out and then delete or
whatever. It's like, that's probably going to be that type of behavior will be in like the DSM six
at some point. Like it'll be, what's that? Well, the, uh, uh, what is it? The,
what's that well the uh uh what is it the it's like the mental health like handbook
like like defining mental illness basically it's like what psychiatrists and doctors use to um
determine if someone has like clinical anxiety or depression or something like that like it's uh
like it's those types of behaviors for me, I'm kind of like shitposting
now. But like, those actions on the feeling of self doubt, in a digital way, like, I feel like
the number of tweets I've deleted, the number of tweets I haven't posted, uh, stuff like that. Uh, the, the amount of time it's taken me
to like hit send on something I've written. Um, uh, it's like, those are pretty strong indicators
of the fact that like, I'm not feeling sure of myself at any point in time. Um, and I'm not
saying that that's what you're doing, but, um, ties back to that struggle most people experience of showing up authentically on the internet when you can be and do and say and not say anything.
It's like when you have infinite options of how you present yourself, do you choose to curate that um do you choose to
distort that um to try and make it more favorable in some way shape or form and yeah it's that's a
that's an interesting idea because you don't know how you'll be received. So to even think this is favorable or not is kind of like what you're saying to DMC6.
Like, we're doubting our truth.
And, you know, I want to challenge you, bro.
Fucking post that shit.
And don't delete that shit.
And be true to yourself.
And I'll start posting GIFs, all right?
I'll start posting GIFs.
You start posting your shit posts.
And then we can fucking
do this let's go i'm not afraid anymore right on man yeah but but but on a more serious note like
um you know something i've been doing to like what you're exactly saying is like something i've been
so afraid to do and lately with the project that I've been doing every day and doing a diary, like post
under the video is like, that's me expressing myself.
So filterless and truthful.
It's like, I'm kind of afraid who reads it, but also I don't give a fuck because that's
me and that's what's inside and that's what needs to be released.
And I think going back to you, it's like, it's not about being cool or finding people that connect with your shit.
It's just like,
how do you connect with yourself on the internet?
And,
and you're like,
you be your body language without controlling it and fucking let it be and
learn,
learn yourself by what you share in posts.
Yeah.
It's really,
it's interesting.
I was like,
I remember when I made this Twitter account
and started getting some followers, I definitely was nervous. I was like,
is this gonna fuck me up? Like, psychologically, like just having this pseudonym? And you know,
is he going to like bifurcate who i am in some way like will i choose
to like curate who i you know who i am on the internet versus who i am in real life and will
there be negative effects of that because i've never really like i don't know i've never had
a social platform of any kind before um and i never had like a anon account anywhere that was really active it just kind of lurked
you know what's interesting though it's it's interesting you say all this and you you're
kind of i don't know if you're anon i i mean we've met before but i don't know if you show
yourself as anon here but to have those feelings as an anon is interesting because like i come with
my face my name my bullshit and like you know like
isn't to be a nun being able to express all the shit you want to yeah well it's I think that's
that's really yeah interesting definitely what I found I was like oh no I actually feel
probably more comfortable being myself here um which is also an interesting experience where
you're like, what does that, what does that say about like my IRL, uh, yeah, life or whatever.
But, um, I think it's mostly like, you're starting from zero in, in a specific way, like, uh, none of
the relationships you have, cause you start a twitter account or
wherever with zero relationships uh of any kind um uh and you're not encumbered by your perception
of who you are to other people um which is always just like a projection. You know, it's in the same vein where you raise that question of like,
oh, well, me curating myself to look a certain way
is me pretending that I understand
what everyone is thinking or might think,
which is kind of insanity, you know?
And I think that's why it's a real...
Might be more narcissistic than insane,
but I totally agree with you
because I think we all feel that way.
It's like, oh, is this going to be cool?
Is this going to get engagement?
Because we can't deny these systems we're playing on
and how these things structure our psyche.
And the systems that we're building on
has a specific way the algorithm works.
So it's like, it's not insanity.
It's not narcissism.
It's kind of like, how do we harmonize with the system to get our truth out there and and that's like the
big debate i think and that's maybe where it creates mental illness because we start questioning
uh what we're putting out there is either authentic or or or not but but we're in a highly
financialized commercial space like we're being advertised to,
this is an advertising platform, I guess all social media is. Um, I don't know where I'm
going with this. I'm just, I guess I'm just sharing my thoughts. I don't know.
No, I appreciate that. Yeah. And it's, it's definitely, I feel like we all just do our best, you know, it's like a very, uh, nascent form of existing.
Um, and I think like for me, whenever I'm like really struggling with whatever, if I'm
just like overloaded and I am having those moments of like, man, I don't know if I should
say this or I don't know, like I feeling unsure about getting thoughts.
I usually just like stop using Twitter for a bit.
I'm like, okay, this isn't helping me.
Like I'm thinking less clearly because of this.
And there's obviously some things outside of this timeline
that I need to be attending to,
whether it's like work or just fucking going outside more
or whatever it might be.
Can I ask you a quick question? Of of course i don't mean to interrupt you but have you ever thought of do you journal
like you know the thoughts you're saying you want to draft and post like do all these thoughts need
to be shared like do you ever just journal and like write and just let that shit live in a book
and read it to yourself and you know know, just a conversation with yourself.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, like, I think I use, I usually use like my phone for that. Um, uh, but yeah, I'll, I write a lot down.
Um, I think that was like, I'll post pics from this like contrast there, a place I go
to, uh, where like, you're basically going like,
you know, you'll go into the sauna for a bit, uh, like 20 minutes and then you'll jump in a
freezing cold tub of water. And it's kind of like the Pomodoro technique. If you've heard of that,
like that's what I realized after going a few times like is that the spot that you
keep sharing online is that your spot or is that like it's like i i go like i pay to go there
can i go there with you bro 100 yeah um yeah it's dope but i find like the jumping in the cold water
like completely puts me into my body and like senses, physical senses in a way that like helps
clear the mind a lot. Because you have to just like focus on your breath or it's a horrible,
horrible experience. And the challenge of it, it's like fun. But then you go into the sauna after
and you have 20 minutes where like you are just sitting there.
And so that's usually when I'll be like thinking through things.
And then you're supposed to give yourself like a few minutes between being in the sauna or being in the cold plunge.
So your body doesn't freak the fuck out.
And it's usually in those like three to five minutes I'm like writing a bunch of stuff.
Like it's after getting out of the cold water,
I'll be like, oh, that was the answer. Or the train of thought has found some new
tracks to go down. And yeah, I'll do a bunch of writing. And sometimes, I don't write big threads too often anymore.
But usually when I do, it'll be like me having written little bits down here and there for a few months or a couple months.
Until I feel like the ideas I've been trying to connect or crystallize are like, make sense. And I've tested them from like all angles in my head. For my own sake, not for the sake of like them being,
you know, interesting to read or anything like that.
Well, I would love to read some of those, if you could share one, and just to get a better idea of what you're talking about. And I want to also echo what you're saying. i don't know if like the toxins in your body or you're letting go or you're relaxing and energy's flowing in different
areas but i do believe it allows i don't know song creates more empathy it creates more
understanding it creates more uh different perspective like looking at it up from other
perspective but that rather than yourself first-person lens.
And I just want to also say,
hey, maybe our first Shiller activation should be a fucking NFT
NYC bathhouse jamboree.
Dude, that sounds like
a major vibe.
Nothing about NFTs, it's just
come fucking sauna and cold plunge
and just chill in the fucking pools
with the nft community
that sounds great dude yeah i would love that things with the nft people but not
about nfts like let's just chill in some hot fucking saunas i think we get a lot further
and like even going back to what you were saying earlier i kind of missed the mark on
talking about this but it is interesting to me, like how many companies are made and like yourself, you were
a great example. Myself also, we like come into the space, we become founders, we either fail or
succeed or we crab walk through all these different, you know, momentums. But I do think,
you know, we're the best companies made prior all of this, like at the beginning?
Like, how are new companies or foundations or things being formed as this space grows?
And, you know, not based on like all time highs and scams and grifts and shit, but more like, like actual tools we need. Like, I still use PoEB,ep you know like there are so many amazing platforms
that died and are still surviving and it kind of reminds me of what this thing that g money once
said to me like talking about the tech boom and i wasn't really like conscious around that time i
was like middle school or some about you know amazon survived because they had money to survive
the the the four or five years and And I think you just got to survive.
And to your point, like sometimes it takes volunteering and sometimes it takes, you know,
knowing that it's not going to work out.
But the longer you're here, I think the basis of this whole conversation, the longer you're
here, the more you show up, you know, it's not about extracting.
It's not about extracting. It's not about taking, it's more about like just being
yourself truly and, and how you fit within this, the grand scheme of this movement,
whether you're a builder, you're an artist, you're a collector, you're a writer, whatever
the fuck you are, you're here. Um, I just think you, we just, if you want to be part of this,
you just got to be continued being, I don't know. What do you think? you think yeah i mean i would say so like i think like
you know things always work out man like they uh they always work out like if you keep going
the only way for things to work out is to keep going um and uh that i think it was like warren buffett who said um you can try and fail as hard
as you possibly can but if you are someone who is consistent uh you will fail at failing
some i'm paraphrasing terribly here but um it kind of like went through all of the people that have ever done anything no notable um and the only
point of continuity between each story is the persistence side of things um and it's not to say
like you have to be grinding on twitter harder or you have to whatever like it's just to say like
Like, it's just to say, like, keeping some clear ember of passion alive and nurturing it as long as you can.
And also, like, looking at what has been the most rewarding in all of the ways and just trying to keep moving towards that.
And, like, make relationships and friendships. I think,
I think that's probably like one of the, one of the most important things. Like when anyone,
whenever a relationship feels like overly transactional in the space, um, and I get
people are busy and like, sometimes they just need things. Like I, I'm that person all the time.
they just need things like I'm that person all the time.
But I think if you're, I think having some real good friends,
people you can trust on here goes so, so far.
And if you're lucky enough to like build something with them or,
or alongside of them and enjoy that together,
like that's exceptionally nourishing.
And then just not being too,
like being here is a gamble, but I think whatever you can do to like,
take care of yourself and know that the next X number of months or years, like you're going to
be okay. Yeah, that's really helpful too. It was honestly like going back to the Shiller story.
After I collected my first twin flames, I kind of told myself like, okay, like,
it was like some of the first art I ever collected in the space. I think it was like the first or second piece of art uh of
like you know a solid amount like it was like the most I'd ever spent on can I can I add to this bro
because you know you we didn't know each other well and you know it took a while for us to
communicate and maybe even a bit of my persuasion to get you to believe in me and you paid 15 ETH
and then we didn't know what the
fuck was going to go on like that was a crazy amount of time and then like a few months later
i'm so grateful that you were able to sell it for 115 eath or whatever the fuck it was
and that just made me feel so good inside that i was like wow this person believed in me and they
fucking were able to do that and like it could it could have gone the other way too it could have just been like fuck i fucked this guy up but it's like we don't know and i
want to hear from your side because there's so much to that and like you know you probably
supported hundreds of artists with that but i'm curious what your thoughts are i know totally like
well the first the first twin flame like i'd really been paying attention to you and the collection and like just really resonated with the full body of work.
And the first piece I got was, I think, 12 ETH.
Right after I finally sold one of my punks, I got a piece from you and a piece from plant daddy uh you were
two artists who had just been like really enjoying for a long time um and uh i'd always said to
myself like okay whenever this punk sells like i want to collect a piece of art from these two people. Um, but yeah, it was a fucking lot. It was a lot of money. Uh,
and I, I told myself like, okay, I'm, you know, very new to this. I think I, I like listed that
piece, um, for like double or something like that sometime after buying it. Um, and there was a bunch
of other pieces that were priced cheaper, but sort of told myself
like, whenever this sells, I'll try and buy another. And if I'll use the profits from this
to just be, to add to my safety net so I can quit my job and go full-time on Shiller.
so I can quit my job and go full-time on Shiller.
And it sold for 25 ETH.
I think I was out for like burritos with some friends and Mila
and got the notification from OpenSea
and just was like freaking out silently in my head.
And then I quit my job the next morning.
It was like updated the Shiller founders in the group chat.
I was like, hey, like this, this happened like, I think two months or something after I bought it.
And then I was able to get another for 15 Eats.
So, yeah, I was able to like stash some money away, get another Twin Flames, and then go full time at Shiller.
And I had like, you know, ETH from the punk sale still, but I was trying to be kind of diligent in accounting for what money was for what.
And it was that sale that was the trigger of literally like sold at like 10pm.
And then at like 9am the next day, I called my boss and was like, Hey, this has been great.
Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave.
And like, thank you for the experience.
And yeah, it was like very impactful for me.
Yeah, so thank you bro i i fucking am so grateful and like
it just shows like you know at that time i was hustling pretty hard i didn't know what i was
doing i didn't know how that affected people and like now i've come back to just chill and let the
art speak for itself you know i've grown up a bit but i'm so fucking happy and there's some cases
that help so many people like you sergito
so many other people uh who believed in me early and were able to literally like change their work
or change their life or change their family's life and like what more can an artist ask for
but to touch people's lives in that fucking way and unfortunately it has to be through money
but still it's like that is power and I'm not saying like power of control
I'm saying that's power
of abundance
to do more
and I'm fucking so grateful that that
happened for you and like
look where you are now with this amazing company
and your dedication to
so many artists and like that makes me fucking
so happy dude
my heart is my heart is
glowing and i'm just so grateful like i wish so many artists could have this story and have that
connection with people to to to because that's what that's the beauty of this space and it could
go if you go the opposite way so quick but we don't know We're uncertain of what the future looks like. But I don't know.
It is a risk.
Yeah.
I mean, it's all a risk.
And, like, we've all grown in a great deal of ways in the past few years.
And I think there are – it definitely – yeah, it's always been, say,
Yeah, it's always been, say, the most stable source of inspiration and energy that I've had is from the artists in this space who, like, on the most bearish days of the charts and the soul've ever seen in my life. And a bunch of insanely passionate, wildly courageous artists
who are like, yeah, I'm going to try and really make a living
off of my digital art or off of my art
that happens to be, you know, transacted digitally
and collected digitally.
And yeah, I know there's a lot of other artists who've had stories like that and
i'm just excited to see more of them uh as time progresses um yeah so can i ask you final closing
thoughts i'm so fucking honored to finally get you on here i've been trying to corral you for a few
months now and here we are thank you so much for, bro. And I hope we get cold plunge and jump
in the sauna. I'll message you about this, but is there a closing thought you want to have for those
artists, for anyone who's in the space who is like giving it their all? Like what, what more can we
do? Or what do you know, what, what advice do you want to leave us with? Cause you're so good at
what you're doing now with Schiller and all these companies just i just want to hear what your thoughts are
closing thoughts i say like in in general just like keep going and like
there's not that many things that need to happen to any one person you know there's not that many
decisions anyone needs to make or events you know positive events that need to happen to any one person. You know, there's not that many decisions anyone needs to make or events,
you know, positive events that need to happen for anyone's
trajectory to change like dramatically for the good.
Um, and yeah, I, I like deeply believe that some of the most
important artists in the world, uh world are hanging out here on Twitter,
sharing their art every day and engaging with this medium of blockchain.
I think just continue to create and also reflect on like maybe how this medium could integrate
with your work and how your work might be more natively
supported by it. And then I would also say, like, I think artists, it's a really weird power dynamic
quandary where I think often artists feel and in many ways are, you know, beholden to the markets
and to collectors and to platforms and whatever else.
Like that is an experience that is hard to shake.
But I think a lot of it can distract people from the knowledge that they have so much
power and ability to come together to do great things.
Like I still keep wanting to see and get excited when I do see artists coming together to like build something, whether it's a DAO or just, you know, a way of uplifting each other.
That's kind of organized, you know, an artist residency or something like that.
I think there's so much space for artists to be directly shaping this world we're all happily inhabiting um and it
just takes like coming together and building on top of that um so i just want to see more of that
stuff um i want to see like more platforms and more things that are completely artist-run.
I think recently, RGB MTL is a great example of Strano, Nicolas Sassoon, and others in
Montreal who four years ago decided to put on a little art exhibition celebrating crypto
art in Montreal. And, um, it's just
fully artists run, fully artists led, um, beautifully put together. And then they just
talked to, uh, some companies, um, to, uh, in the Tezos ecosystem to support them. And
I think there's like so much that can happen from that. And there often is like a lot of money out there to support you to do great things on your own and with artists that you connect with.
And sometimes you just need to like write a good pitch, have a good idea, you know, recognize that if someone's going to give you if a platform is going to give you money, like they kind of need to benefit in some way. And maybe that's a bit of a game you play,
but there's always ways to do it tastefully. And yeah, I would just recommend like going after it,
if that's something you want to do, especially if you're like an organized person that isn't
as ADHD as I am, would highly encourage you to do that.
But yeah, so you keep going
and connect with each other to do
dope shit, basically.
Very left
curve, evergreen
wisdom.
So just keep doing what you're
fucking doing. If you're here, you're already
early and you're
doing it. So just to echo
everything Fungi said, if you're an artist,
create more artist-led initiatives,
galleries, residencies,
maybe something different we haven't
seen before. I don't know.
Fungi, so grateful for
you, bro.
Hope to see you in the sauna.
Thank you everyone who's listening
on a Sundayay really appreciate
all the familiar faces here a lot of homies a lot of newbies thank you guys for joining
thank you fungi for your time and uh we'll see you guys tomorrow have a beautiful day
thanks so much for having me man have a great day everyone
